I drove a manual car and a car equiped with DSG.

The manual first...

The shifting is a little rubbery but not as bad as VWs and Audis from the past. The shifts are very smooth, though not as snick snick and short as I would prefer, I don't think many people will complain that the throws are too long. Clutch engagement was also very easy and the clutch pedal was very light, again not my preference but will please the average consumer. My biggest complaint is the push type clutch VW and Audi insist on using, if I have a sporty car I don't want to have to push the pedal almost all the way to the floor.

This particular car had the leather interior and upgarded 17" wheels. The seats were quite good, nicely bolstered and comfortable. Not Evo good, but I have yet to find a better stock seat, the GTI seats were a little snugger than the STI seats.
The plaid seats in the DSG car weren't quite as good, but there wasn't a big difference and the plaid was a nice touch, though I'd worry if I would still like it down the road a couple years. The interior was very good, quality materials and excellent fit and finish They got important stuff like the steering wheel and pedals right as well. C&D pointed out the high dash, and it is apparent but not terribly bothersome and something that I could easily get used to. For a small car the interior felt roomy and I wasn't cramped in the least. Someone else might go on more about how great the interior is but I could honestly care less about that stuff.

The engine felt peppy, but coming from a car with almost 300whp of course it's going to feel a little anemic. Speed wise I'd say it's about on par with the RX-8 but doesn't feel quite as fast due to the early power delivery and seemingly linear delivery of power all the way to redline. There is no turbo lag, to the point that it doesn't even feel like a turbo car. Punch the gas at 2k RPMs and it feels almost the same as punching it at 4k. The engine has a nice little growl to it as does the exhaust.

The ride was nice and smooth, not overly soft and floaty and it absorbed all the bumps in the road without issue. I didn't even come close to testing the handling limits but the car handles well enough to make a spirited jaunt around town or on a twisty road pleasurable.





The DSG...

It's brilliant, it shifts seamlessly, by far the best AT I've ever driven. BMW wishes their SMG was this good. Not one hint of bucking or downtime, you don't even realize it's shifting unless you're really getting on it. Even when you're hammering on the throttle you have to pay attention to realize you just went up a gear. No early shifts here either, the car fully utilizes its powerband. In sport mode using the paddles, it's just as smooth and won't try to dictate what RPMs you're in, even allowing you to go past the redline before it shifts for you. Like I said, it's brilliantly executed, I however still felt detached. I felt like I was playing a videogame rather than driving a car, the smoothness with which it carried out my little clicks of the paddles enhanced that feeling. In fact the car is so good in auto mode I don't even see the point of the paddles.

If I owned this car I'd play with the paddles for the first week or two and probably never use them again unless I did a track day. Even then the benefits of the paddles would be minimal, and I'd question my own sanity for buying an auto if I intended to do track days.

On a side note, the shifts are so quick and seamless the DSG did feel faster than the MT. A very well driven MT would still be a tick faster in my mind, but not consistently so. Average 10 1/4 mile times between the two cars and the DSG will come out the victor. Both cars also had some wheel spin when getting on it in low gears, but no typical torque steer or wheel hop.

VW has a real winner on their hands and this is totally the kind of car I'd like to see my girlfriend drive or send my kid off to college with. Bravo VW!




Stupid things salemen say...

Whenever I testdrive cars there's always some stupid things said by the salesman that stand out. My sales guy knew his stuff pretty well, but not all his stuff.

"This car makes peak horsepower at 1800 RPMS"

I corrected him that he means torque, he still insisted it makes its peak horsepower at 1800. It's really 5100 for the hp and 1800 for the torque.

"With just a chip this car will put 265 horsepower to the wheels"

Nonsense of course, but this was after the peak horsepower discussion so I let it go. I'm sure the car will respond well to a chip just like the 1.8Ts did, but 265 to the crank is pushing it.

Nice write up. A GTI is a possible STI replacement for me as a daily driver, since I am a total VW guy at heart when it comes to daily rides. Reliablility is the key factor, along with being able to accept that kind of hp loss in my daily driver/commuter car. I most certainly think the car is better looking both inside and out, so that scores points with me as well. I'm gonna have to check out the DSG model, because that will suit me nicely, considering I am always stuck in traffic. I'd like to get my hands on a new R32, but it may never see the US, so I won't hold my breath on that. :)

How much HP to the wheels does the car have. In one place you said it had almost 300WHP, then you said that 265 to the crank was pusing it.

How much HP to the wheels does the car have. In one place you said it had almost 300WHP, then you said that 265 to the crank was pusing it.
The 300hp remark was in referring to his Evo. Stating that coming from an almost 300hp car the GTI felt anemic.

Ah, now that makes sense. I was corn-fused. Going back to sleep now...

I just had a positive premonition today that the GTI is going to be around for another generation. :Freak_ani

has anyone here driven both the GTI and the Civic Si?
if so thoughts?
C and D did a comparo and the GTI edged based on its torque and some other small factors... I for one can't decide which I prefer..

To clear things up, the GTI hp is underated, and is actually pushing between 190 to 200 hp to the wheels in stock trim. This is based on dynos from vwvortex boards.

has anyone here driven both the GTI and the Civic Si?
if so thoughts?
C and D did a comparo and the GTI edged based on its torque and some other small factors... I for one can't decide which I prefer..

I'm going to drive the SI at some point in the near future.

I wish that Mazda had a dsg for the RX8--I believe that if it had a launch control feature it would be a nice match for the rev band of the RX8.

I just had a positive premonition today that the GTI is going to be around for another generation. :Freak_ani

Haha, classic.

Very nice writeup Ike. Glad to see you got a chance to drive the DSG, even though you don't seem totally sold on having one. We've had this whole discussion before, but it seems as though a car with a DSG or even a CVT is the fastest and best way to keep a car in its powerband at all times. But having silky smooth shifts or no shifts at all (CVT) would probably drive anyone with a sports car crazy. You're not the first person I've heard say that the shifts on the DSG are almost too smooth so maybe VW will start listening and do something about it.

I like the Si. If i was looking for a cheap sporty car, I'd consider it.

Nice write up. The GTI is finally up on the canadian VW website, and suprise suprise is more expensive than it is in the states (w/ conversion). That really grinds my gears. I can option a car out in the states to my liking for 29k CDN. That's where the GTI starts here. And to top all that off, we don't get any of the options except sunroof and leather!! no nav, not sat. radio, no nothing!

I wish that Mazda had a dsg for the RX8--I believe that if it had a launch control feature it would be a nice match for the rev band of the RX8.

Did you vote in the DSG poll (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=82401)? Not that it really matters what the outcome is. But who doesn't like to vote?

FYI, the US cars didn't get launch control.

Also, it was pretty funny driving the Evo away, I pushed the clutch in and thought it was broken. It was so hard to push in compared to the GTI that I was straining, but after a few minutes it felt normal again. I guess I've been driving these cars with stiff clutches for so long I don't even notice.

i haven't driven the GTI, but my fiancee has a jetta with the DSG, and that thing is incredibly smooth. similar to what ike said, unless you are flooring it, or looking at the dash the exact moment it shifts, you'll won't notice that it shifted. the DSG is by far the best automatic tranny out there. she especially love the hill assist feature.

FYI, the US cars didn't get launch control.

Also, it was pretty funny driving the Evo away, I pushed the clutch in and thought it was broken. It was so hard to push in compared to the GTI that I was straining, but after a few minutes it felt normal again. I guess I've been driving these cars with stiff clutches for so long I don't even notice.

I just had this funny image of you 5 years from now with a giant left leg and a regular sized right leg. :evil_laug

I’m planning on taking a day to test drive a whole mess of cars just to get a really good idea of what I want and to have fun. The list consists of:

Audi A3 S-line with the DSG V-6
RX8
MS 6
WRX STi
Evo MR (if I can find one)
Charger R/T

Really interested in the DSG since the Evo X is supposed to have this as at least an option.

I looked at a white GTI today at dealer in showroom. I was ultimately impressed. Now I gotta drive one. I left before I did something stupid. I am comparing this car to my STI, because it's a possible replacement as a daily commuter car. I just need to get over the power loss before it becomes a reality. I agree with alot of what Ike said, and maybe after this weekend, I'll agree some more. I love the interior, and the seats are great. This one had the amenities like dual zone auto climate control, heated seats, leather, ect ect. It also had the dsg. I am a Vw guy for daily driving, and I crossed over when I got the STI, but if there is a car that can get me back, this is it. I'd like to wait for a new R32 though, if that's even coming here. Either way, this car is more me then the STI. I do a lot of driving, and sit in a lot of traffic, and the STI is beginning to bother me a bit with that heavy clutch, road noise, harsh ride, and more importantly just the overall look of the car with that hideous wing disturbs me at times. Don't get me wrong, I love the STI for how it drives, but now that I have seen this GTI, I'm looking at interior and exterior, and liking it a lot more. It trumps the STI no doubt about it. Not even close IMO.

I also tarted around at the pontiac dealership today and test drove a demo 05 GTO. I must say, that car is freaking fast. My STi from a roll will have it's behind handed to it I know that. Muscle cars aren't my thing, but the seats are great, interior isn't really as bad as people say it is, and the ride is smooth and luxurious for a 400hp beast. I love that engine. The guy started putting out numbers, and I ended that with BS to get out of there.If I could afford a third car, this could very well be it. This was an auto, but it didn't feel like that played any role in performance. I definitely love the rush, but a car like likely will bore me in a few months. I'm gonna have to test drive a GTI, and see if it's a future STI replacement or not. I'm pretty sure it is, but only if I can not miss the power and performance loss. :)

I just had a positive premonition today that the GTI is going to be around for another generation. :Freak_ani

I think if VW pulled the GTI, it would be a little too reactionary.

I think you logic is screwy. Way too long. Get to the point. Don't use pretentious words like "brilliant." Let the British use the word. Did Brian Boitano or Austin Scarlett ever talk like that? :rolleyes:

I'm fully aware of what the word "brilliant" means, if I had a "brilliant" meal yesterday and said it's one of the most "brilliant" meals I've had in the last decade would you argue with me that it can't be so just because I had some awful meals in 1997? :rolleyes:

After reading your second paragraph I shall bid you adieu.... Wow, just wow... :sadwavey:

I just had this funny image of you 5 years from now with a giant left leg and a regular sized right leg. :evil_laug

Funny thing is I could dunk when I was younger and stopped playing basketball as much and then could only dunk if I had a toss or bouned the ball since I can't palm most basketballs. After I started driving my WRX I gained back the inch or two I had lost and could dunk again since I'm a one footed jumper :cwm27:

I looked at a white GTI today at dealer in showroom. I was ultimately impressed. Now I gotta drive one. I left before I did something stupid. I am comparing this car to my STI, because it's a possible replacement as a daily commuter car. I just need to get over the power loss before it becomes a reality. I agree with alot of what Ike said, and maybe after this weekend, I'll agree some more. I love the interior, and the seats are great. This one had the amenities like dual zone auto climate control, heated seats, leather, ect ect. It also had the dsg. I am a Vw guy for daily driving, and I crossed over when I got the STI, but if there is a car that can get me back, this is it. I'd like to wait for a new R32 though, if that's even coming here. Either way, this car is more me then the STI. I do a lot of driving, and sit in a lot of traffic, and the STI is beginning to bother me a bit with that heavy clutch, road noise, harsh ride, and more importantly just the overall look of the car with that hideous wing disturbs me at times. Don't get me wrong, I love the STI for how it drives, but now that I have seen this GTI, I'm looking at interior and exterior, and liking it a lot more. It trumps the STI no doubt about it. Not even close IMO.

I also tarted around at the pontiac dealership today and test drove a demo 05 GTO. I must say, that car is freaking fast. My STi from a roll will have it's behind handed to it I know that. Muscle cars aren't my thing, but the seats are great, interior isn't really as bad as people say it is, and the ride is smooth and luxurious for a 400hp beast. I love that engine. The guy started putting out numbers, and I ended that with BS to get out of there.If I could afford a third car, this could very well be it. This was an auto, but it didn't feel like that played any role in performance. I definitely love the rush, but a car like likely will bore me in a few months. I'm gonna have to test drive a GTI, and see if it's a future STI replacement or not. I'm pretty sure it is, but only if I can not miss the power and performance loss. :)

I know the RX-8 and GTI are fast cars to most people, but I just couldn't handle driving them. I mash the gas and feel like I'm going nowhere. It might not be so bad for you since I've got another 50 or so whp, but I wouldn't have nearly as much fun with the GTI as my daily.

Funny thing is I could dunk when I was younger and stopped playing basketball as much and then could only dunk if I had a toss or bouned the ball since I can't palm most basketballs. After I started driving my WRX I gained back the inch or two I had lost and could dunk again since I'm a one footed jumper :cwm27:

Brian Boitano did some truly awesome triple axels. I bet he could have spun straight up into the hoop and dunked a basketball...if he played.

The engine felt peppy, but coming from a car with almost 300whp of course it's going to feel a little anemic. Speed wise I'd say it's about on par with the RX-8 but doesn't feel quite as fast due to the early power delivery and seemingly linear delivery of power all the way to redline. There is no turbo lag, to the point that it doesn't even feel like a turbo car. Punch the gas at 2k RPMs and it feels almost the same as punching it at 4k. The engine has a nice little growl to it as does the exhaust.

The ride was nice and smooth, not overly soft and floaty and it absorbed all the bumps in the road without issue. I didn't even come close to testing the handling limits but the car handles well enough to make a spirited jaunt around town or on a twisty road pleasurable.


You mean the GTI's power deliverly is so linear that it doesn't feel as fast as the RX-8, or did you mean the opposite?

How does the GTI stack up to the RX-8 for you?



"With just a chip this car will put 265 horsepower to the wheels"

Nonsense of course, but this was after the peak horsepower discussion so I let it go. I'm sure the car will respond well to a chip just like the 1.8Ts did, but 265 to the crank is pushing it.

Actually... didn't you read my posting in another thread? There is a kit out already that does ECU flash and turbo back exhaust... good for about 268hp. Others that have gone on to do more work in Germany/Europe... bore up, bigger turbo, etc. have pushed the engine to about 400hp I think it was... VW themselves have an upcoming application of the engine in the Audi S4 which is supposed to put out about 260hp (according to Road and Track or Car and Driver).

I know the RX-8 and GTI are fast cars to most people, but I just couldn't handle driving them. I mash the gas and feel like I'm going nowhere. It might not be so bad for you since I've got another 50 or so whp, but I wouldn't have nearly as much fun with the GTI as my daily.


Well, I am not sure if I can handle the power loss. I'm stopping myself from going stage 1 and 2 in this sti, and it's not easy. I'm a old school mod guy, so it's not easy for me to not mod this STI. I drive a lot of miles, and I wear down cars fast, which is why modding a daily driver is a hesitating thing for me. The Sti sure as hell can't be a fun summer car for me. I look at the GTI, and I see a better car, if you go outside the performance box, and look into at it diifferently, much like people look at the RX8. I saw the same better car when I owned the RX8. For me it's a struggle between looks, amenities, luxury and performance. I'll be satisfied with keeping my STI as a daily, maybe modding it to stage 1. Looking at that GTI though, the struggle is starting to begin. ;)

How much HP to the wheels does the car have. In one place you said it had almost 300WHP, then you said that 265 to the crank was pusing it.


According to VW/GTI forums... it's underrrated. VW says 210hp (flywheel) and it's dynos are like 190-200hp. Engine is easily chipped (ECU flash) for another 30 or so hp and adding a turbo back exhaust is supposed to take you to around 268hp.

Well, I am not sure if I can handle the power loss. I'm stopping myself from going stage 1 and 2 in this sti, and it's not easy. I'm a old school mod guy, so it's not easy for me to not mod this STI. I drive a lot of miles, and I wear down cars fast, which is why modding a daily driver is a hesitating thing for me. The Sti sure as hell can't be a fun summer car for me. I look at the GTI, and I see a better car, if you go outside the performance box, and look into at it diifferently, much like people look at the RX8. I saw the same better car when I owned the RX8. For me it's a struggle between looks, amenities, luxury and performance. I'll be satisfied with keeping my STI as a daily, maybe modding it to stage 1. Looking at that GTI though, the struggle is starting to begin. ;)


Personally... if the r32 came to the US and cost under $30k... there'd be no discussion about what car I'd be getting. You come to the GTI... the FWD thing really gets to me.... and concerns about VW reliablity... which I hear should be better since all the Golf's are made in Germany now.

Tell you want... if you can't wait for the r32, get the GTI and mod it. ECU flash, turbo back exhaust and soon intake... hitting just under 300hp won't be hard.

Handling... one of the magazine reviews (R&T or C&D) got .90g on the skidpad for the GTI. I forget what the slalom was... but basically it's supposed to handle well and with mods it'll probably be a FWD champ.

The Civic Si... screw it. No low end torque, weany tires (you can get optional 18" from the factory on the GTI) and the backseat it tight according to all reviews. The GTI's backseat can hold two regular-sized adults. And lastly... the Civic is a Honda (and we all know I HATE Honda)... nuff said.

According to VW/GTI forums... it's underrrated. VW says 210hp (flywheel) and it's dynos are like 190-200hp. Engine is easily chipped (ECU flash) for another 30 or so hp and adding a turbo back exhaust is supposed to take you to around 268hp.

190 wouldn't be all that underrated considering there is no power steering pump for the car to power and it's FWD. But yes, it's still a little underrated, much like the new SI seems to be.

Keep in mind all the VW/Audi chip guys usually use crank horsepower, how they arrive at these numbers I'm not sure... I've seen dynos of stock vs. chipped and they're gaining in the area of 20-30whp usually putting down about 210whp maybe 220 if someone is really lucky, which is a huge difference from 265whp.

You mean the GTI's power deliverly is so linear that it doesn't feel as fast as the RX-8, or did you mean the opposite?

How does the GTI stack up to the RX-8 for you?




Correct, the GTI is very linear. The RX-8 is more fun IMO, the GTI is a great car but like most german cars lacks passion, it's a bit cold feeling.

190 wouldn't be all that underrated considering there is no power steering pump for the car to power and it's FWD. But yes, it's still a little underrated, much like the new SI seems to be.

That is a good point, but as you mentioned... even so it is a bit underrated.


Keep in mind all the VW/Audi chip guys usually use crank horsepower, how they arrive at these numbers I'm not sure... I've seen dynos of stock vs. chipped and they're gaining in the area of 20-30whp usually putting down about 210whp maybe 220 if someone is really lucky, which is a huge difference from 265whp.

I suspected the numbers were flywheel, but even so the 265 number is not just chipped... that's also with a turbo back exhaust system. The crazier numbers are from German or European tuners who have also gone to changing internals and at the top end upping the displacement.

Interesting that the power is so linear.... I would have thought that with the torque peak at 1800rpm it'd pull strong from down low unlike the RX-8. That combined with the "German sports car" feel... I would have thought that it'd feel more "lively" than the RX-8. Interesting...

That is a good point, but as you mentioned... even so it is a bit underrated.



I suspected the numbers were flywheel, but even so the 265 number is not just chipped... that's also with a turbo back exhaust system. The crazier numbers are from German or European tuners who have also gone to changing internals and at the top end upping the displacement.

Interesting that the power is so linear.... I would have thought that with the torque peak at 1800rpm it'd pull strong from down low unlike the RX-8. That combined with the "German sports car" feel... I would have thought that it'd feel more "lively" than the RX-8. Interesting...

Once you get past the wheelspin I have little doubt it would run even with or even pull on an RX-8, but you never get that little extra push in higher RPMs like with the RX-8. I'm just going by what I felt, but that feeling may not be fair to the GTI since at the time I drove the RX-8 I didn't own an Evo. To be honest, if I wasn't trying to keep a fair perspective on things I'd say the new GTI is dog slow... But it's not, I'm sure a lot of people will think it's fast and fun.

^^ imagine how magazine writers must feel. They test drive Evos, STis, Corvettes, and Porsches galore. Then they have to test drive GTI's, RX-8's and Accords...


GTI probably feels fast and fun for most. But the RX-8 feels faster and more fun? Is your impression?

I wonder how back to back test drives of both now would turn out for you...

Nice review Ike. So is the rainbow flag bumper sticker standard or an option on the new GTI. I joke, I joke. But seriously, do the back seats fold down to give you more room in the back?

Once you get past the wheelspin I have little doubt it would run even with or even pull on an RX-8, but you never get that little extra push in higher RPMs like with the RX-8. I'm just going by what I felt, but that feeling may not be fair to the GTI since at the time I drove the RX-8 I didn't own an Evo. To be honest, if I wasn't trying to keep a fair perspective on things I'd say the new GTI is dog slow... But it's not, I'm sure a lot of people will think it's fast and fun.


Since I owned an rx8 for almost 2 years and have not forgotten the feel of it (glued in my memory forever because of how special the rx8 is), I'll be able to add to this after tomorrow, assuming they will let me test drive it. If I end up really loving the way this car drives (already prefer the looks inside and out over the sti, and also the more amenities), I'll be looking to buy one down the road if the power is sufficient enough for me. I have to keep an open mind, because I am gonna suffer a very noticable power loss, although not nearly as major as Ike. It's a good thing I did not mod this sti, otherwise it very well could ruin my chances of getting one. What makes this possible is that I think it looks far nicer then the STI both inside and out, and the tranny alone might persuade me, because I can really use an automatic with the heavy intense traffic I drive through. We shall see. ;)

Since I owned an rx8 for almost 2 years and have not forgotten the feel of it (glued in my memory forever because of how special the rx8 is), I'll be able to add to this after tomorrow, assuming they will let me test drive it. If I end up really loving the way this car drives (already prefer the looks inside and out over the sti, and also the more amenities), I'll be looking to buy one down the road if the power is sufficient enough for me. I have to keep an open mind, because I am gonna suffer a very noticable power loss, although not nearly as major as Ike. It's a good thing I did not mod this sti, otherwise it very well could ruin my chances of getting one. What makes this possible is that I think it looks far nicer then the STI both inside and out, and the tranny alone might persuade me, because I can really use an automatic with the heavy intense traffic I drive through. We shall see. ;)

maybe you should take a look at this?
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article_id=10627

Going from AWD back to FWD would be rough.

Nice review Ike. So is the rainbow flag bumper sticker standard or an option on the new GTI. I joke, I joke. But seriously, do the back seats fold down to give you more room in the back?

Not a clue, but would be good to know so maybe Viking will pay attention.

Also, as good as the new GTI is, even if the power was enough for me, I'd still be cursing the FWD every time I wanted to take off quickly.

Handling... one of the magazine reviews (R&T or C&D) got .90g on the skidpad for the GTI. I forget what the slalom was... but basically it's supposed to handle well and with mods it'll probably be a FWD champ.

The Civic Si... screw it. No low end torque, weany tires (you can get optional 18" from the factory on the GTI) and the backseat it tight according to all reviews. The GTI's backseat can hold two regular-sized adults. And lastly... the Civic is a Honda (and we all know I HATE Honda)... nuff said.

well, you say that....but I'll bet you the change in my pocket that the Si will beat the GTI on any road course on the planet (for less $$ at that). on the C&D comparo at least, the GTI was clearly down on skidpad and slalom to the Honda, even with the latter's so-called weany tires. and if you start talking mods...well Honda can play that game as well as anybody, as we all know. the GTI being 300+ lbs heavier and no LSD is a definite handicap when comparing vehicle dynamics to the Si (or other hot FWD compacts for that matter).

That being said, the GTI (esp. w/ DSG) would still be a pretty darn good overall daily driver, compared to the Si or Rx8. Slogging thru commuter traffic would be much more tolerable with that DSG set on full-auto mode, compared to operating a standard.

No DSG for me. Trust me... traffic in a manual doesn't phase me... in Tokyo, DC, NC or FL. Even done it in a pushrod V8 Mustang... and trust me that clutch is a serious workout. Still noway I'd ever get automatic again... double H AND clutch or die.

The Civic.. maybe but I personally have no love for HOnda, I find the Civic Si dull looking outside and I HATE the dashboard. All adds up to another Honda that will definitely not end up in my driveway.

190 wouldn't be all that underrated considering there is no power steering pump for the car to power and it's FWD. But yes, it's still a little underrated, much like the new SI seems to be.


hey Ike, if it doesn't have power steering pump, then what kind of steering does it have? just want to know how it works..

maybe you should take a look at this?
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article_id=10627

I'm done looking if it's not in the $30k mark. ;) As for switching from AWD to FWD, think of it this way. I drive 30k miles per year, most of are which highway, and in traffic. I simply don't get to use this STi to it's potential very often, and when I do have free road and time, I am not in my STI, I am in my S2K, because that's my fun car. In other words, I'm just not sure I'm gonna miss AWD. Yeah it's gotten me through some rough deep snow, but I purposely drove through those storms when I didn't have to, just because I wanted to have a little fun in the STi. Now tell me this guys. ;), and be honest. If you drove 25-30k miles per year on a continous level, most of it being highway and traffic would you buy an STI? Maybe I should try and get myself to use the STI more for fun, but it's hard to do, when you own an S2K. That car is a total blast. ;)

hey Ike, if it doesn't have power steering pump, then what kind of steering does it have? just want to know how it works..

It has electro-mechanical power steering which has no parasitic power loss since the only power it draws is electric.

Here's an interesting article if you want to learn more.

http://www.embedded.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=164904435

I'm done looking if it's not in the $30k mark. ;) As for switching from AWD to FWD, think of it this way. I drive 30k miles per year, most of are which highway, and in traffic. I simply don't get to use this STi to it's potential very often, and when I do have free road and time, I am not in my STI, I am in my S2K, because that's my fun car. In other words, I'm just not sure I'm gonna miss AWD. Yeah it's gotten me through some rough deep snow, but I purposely drove through those storms when I didn't have to, just because I wanted to have a little fun in the STi. Now tell me this guys. ;), and be honest. If you drove 25-30k miles per year on a continous level, most of it being highway and traffic would you buy an STI? Maybe I should try and get myself to use the STI more for fun, but it's hard to do, when you own an S2K. That car is a total blast. ;)

if i had to sit in traffic most of my time then i rather have something more comfy than a STi and probally most likely an automatic too... so i think the GTi suits u better in the long run if ur intrested...

Well, I went to VW yesterday. I was looking at a white dsg model with the 17 all seasons. Wasn't thinking about the 18 inch one with summer tires. This one was sharp. Had every option except the rim package and navigation. Didnt take long before the greeter came out, and intrduced the salesman. That kind of made me laugh. I thought to myself " here comes the ass kissing fest". They had me figured out, as eyes gleemed, watching me drive by the showroom in my STI. You pick slow days, you are gonna go through this. Anyway, I told the guy I was looking into the GTI as a replacement for my STI, but was planning on doing it in spring or early summer, so he had a silver DSG model they use for test drives. I have to say, the moment I started it up, and pulled out of lot, I was already impressed. A lot of what Ike said, I agree with. I'll add a few things though. I do think this car will seem fast to even an RX8 owner, because that torque is there the moment you start to move. It's quite remarkable actually. I have to say IMO it feels a bit faster then my RX8 did, but as I went along, it became hard to tell. It's really that low end torque and pull that makes it feel that way, so I understand it might not be. it's just the feel. They feel too different to accurately know. I will say that it would be quite a good race. The handling is nimble. I didn't get the chance to truly test car, but I hit some turns, and it is definitely the best handling FWD car I have ever driven. I love the interior, and the seats. Stereo system sounds very good. I love the 6 disc mp3 cd changer standard. The dsg has me sold. I will own a VW with dsg at some point afer that test drive. It's hard to tell it even shifts under normal driving. I really don't think that car suffers any powerloss whatsoever vs manual. It certainly feels and drives like a more expensive car then my STI. It's much smoother, quieter, interior is way better, it looks more sopphisticated on the outside, and there is no doubt it makes a better daily car. However, the power differce is obviously there. Of coures to Ike, it's probably very anemic. Overall, this car is very quick responsive. It does not feel like a 2 liter thats' for sure.
I was talking to the salesman after the drive, and he was telling me that the Corrado is coming back, used on a GTI platform. Not sure how accurate this stuff is, but that surprised me. That was a great car, so it makes sense. He also said the new R32 is not making it to US. As of now, the R36 is set to make it to US sometime between 2008-2010. There really is no time table. He said they will also be putting the 3.6 liter into an AWD Jetta and Passat in the future, as AWD versions of several cars are coming. I told him honestly that I wanted to get an early feel on the GTI, and plan to buy a new car in early summer. He actually was cool, and told me, you might wanna hang onto your car and wait it out, because this GTI is just the top of iceberg, and higher performers will be here before too long. I am definitely buying from that guy. He knew a lot about this car.

Overall, this car is fabulous,and a pure winner. There are three problems I have buying it right now. #1, car is full sticker. You aren't gonna find deals on this car anytime soon. #2, the jury is still out on reliability, is car is still unproven. and third, giving up the STI for a less powerful FWD car is not as easy to do as I thought it would be, regardless of it's better looks, refinement, and daily capability. This salesman own an 04 R32 himself, and is very proud of that car. He's waiting on the R36. He was telling me he test drove the STi and EVO before he got his, but he needed more refinement, and luxury, and shares my view about the lackluster interior, and cheapish exterior looks. He still praised the STI though for how it drives and performs. VW has their act together when it comes to refinement. The interiors of their cars, are simply amazing. I'm gonna own either a GTI, or an R36, it just depends on hw patient I am. The STI is approaching the expensive maintanence phase, so I could end up dishing it out for a GTI this summer, and buy time for the R36. Either thay or I bite it and spend the money on the service interval, and keep car for a while. We shall see. ;)

Being a VW fan and such aside... which would you get? An RX-8 or a GTI? How do the two compare to you?

Being a VW fan and such aside... which would you get? An RX-8 or a GTI? How do the two compare to you?


Each of these cars is in two different classifications for my personality. I do not look at the RX8 in a daily driver/commuter car category. It's in the fun sports car category for me. The GTI is in that daily driver category. If I lived in an area that did not have winter, I do believe if I could only get one car I would choose the RX8 hands down, because it's a sports car with incredible looks. The GTI is more practical to me because it gets much better gas mileage, has nearly just as much power, and offers you the low end torque that the RX8 can not offer. If I had to choose a fun car, the RX8 would hands down be my choice over the GTI. If I have to use it daily and in winter year round, the GTI is my choice. I generally am comparing the GTI to my STI, and the RX8 was compared to my S2K. I got rid of the RX8 purely because it was stuck in between a daily driver and a fun car for me. I needed a convertible to as a fun car, and something AWD or FWD as a daily driver. I still miss my RX8, but convertible factor alone makes me enjoy the S2000 more as a fun car. If Mazda makes a convertible RX8, the S2K is gone. I suppose it's just not feasable to compare the GTI to an RX8, because they are built for two different purposes. Even though their performance may be similiar, that's where the comparison ends.

I dunno.... I'm considering cross-shopping them. I can only own 1 car. I don't do convertibles and I don't do two seaters. Like most of us, I don't particularly care for FWD. Obviously I want something sporty and enjoyable to drive, but this is my everything... daily driver, fun car, etc. No automatics (SMG and DSG are autos in my mind). Guess I just gotta go drive them hard and see which one feels better to me...

I dunno.... I'm considering cross-shopping them. I can only own 1 car. I don't do convertibles and I don't do two seaters. Like most of us, I don't particularly care for FWD. Obviously I want something sporty and enjoyable to drive, but this is my everything... daily driver, fun car, etc. No automatics (SMG and DSG are autos in my mind). Guess I just gotta go drive them hard and see which one feels better to me...

Yeah, that is the point I was making. If I could only afford one car, I'd be in a
much tougher dilemma. I'd say that if I could only have one car, I'd likely have bought the R32 when it was out, and now I would be looking at the new Eclipse Convertible that is due out later this year. I know people mock that car, but there is a black one sitting out in parking lot across form my STI, and that car is very nice looking to me. I'd have to take a 263hp FWD roadster, because that car would ultimately be the best choice for both fun car and daily driver, since I am into convertibles. If winter wasn't an issue, and I could only have one car. The RX8 would have stayed, and I'd own nothing else right now.
It's normal to cross shop all kinds of cars, no matter how different they are, if you can only own one. I'd look at more then just the RX8 and GTI if I were you. It does seem like the RX8 is a nice fit though, because it's practical, very sexy, and has good power. Good luck!!

I've got several months until I'll be looking to really hunt and purchase... so there's time to spare.

Unfortunately there isn't much else on the market... under $25k... the cheaper the better. That combined with what I'm looking for makes for tough shopping... that's why one reason to gather info early.

If I had less than 25k to spend on a new car it would be a tough choice between the '06 WRX and the '06 GTI. The WRX would win out, I just love my AWD launches, the '06 is faster and is running high 13s in the 1/4 mile, with new rubber it will handle better, having AWD in winter is great,I trust Subaru reliability before VW, and most of all I don't like FWD. The better interior/exterior looks and more refinement just doesn't make up for those things for me.

Plus, there is no good excuse for this car to weigh over 3200 lbs, the refinement is nice but it also makes the thing heavier than it should be and therefor less fun than it could be.

So you wouldn't include the 8 in your line up? MSRP obviously means nothing since you shouldn't be paying that at the dealer... thus the 8 falls in price-wise...

The WRX looks are O K. The GTI I find to be pretty hot and the RX-8 to be like an exotic...

So you wouldn't include the 8 in your line up? MSRP obviously means nothing since you shouldn't be paying that at the dealer... thus the 8 falls in price-wise...

The WRX looks are O K. The GTI I find to be pretty hot and the RX-8 to be like an exotic...

I'm mainly going by MSRP, and yes I'd still choose the WRX over the RX-8. The modability, gas mileage, AWD, thrust, and reliability of the WRX still trumps the RX-8 IMO.

Here's a Top Gear GTI video for those interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zxn_TPaGEM&search=top%20gear

VikingDJ...you really prepared to give up AWD for FWD. You get a decent amount of snow in PA, don't you? It seems like a step backwards to me. For not that much more money you could get the MS6 or a Legacy GT.

Actually you may even be able to get a Legacy GT limited for the same price.

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28412
http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28712
http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28706
http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26765

VikingDJ...you really prepared to give up AWD for FWD. You get a decent amount of snow in PA, don't you? It seems like a step backwards to me. For not that much more money you could get the MS6 or a Legacy GT.


Steiner: FWD can most certainly get the job done where I live, because winters are touch and go. This winter was mild, with the exception of one big storm. You can say it's a step backwards, but I have to put bad weather on the backburner, because it's more about how you drive in bad weather that determines your safety and getting around, more so then just having AWD. FWD is more then capable of getting me where I need to go. It's really all about the tires. Basically, I'm not gonna keep this subaru just for AWD alone. The GTI is beter looking inside and out to me, and has features more suitable for a daily driver. It doesn't seem like I can win, because there is no car out there that can give me the best of all worlds. What I need is a 300hp AWD GTI. Better yet , an RX8 with the STI power and drivetrain would solve all my problems. Oh well, I better keep on dreaming. ;)

Only dummies buy VW's. The GTI is a shit can.

:wavey:

I don't own the new GTI, but I do own the 2006 GLI, in both manual and DSG form, along with a manual RX-8. I've only driven the manual version GLI once (that's all my son will allow!!).

The DSG is very smooth, very quick and fun to play with. You get a normal automatic mode, as well as a Sport mode that revs higher before shifting (and never goes into 6th gear until you hit over 100 mph). Ths DSG gets about the same gas mileage as the manual, and in most cases, is quicker to 60 and the 1/4 mile. However, if you really love to shift, you'll miss the left foot coordination required of a manual.

I would say that in a 0-60 sprint and 1/4 mile race, the GLI and RX-8 would be very close, but you'll feel like you're going a lot faster in the RX-8 due to engine noise (music!) and the rougher ride. But the GLI is mod friendly, with at least three companies currently offering reprogramming for more power.

If you're thinking about a GTI, take a look at the GLI. Same drive train, about 150 pounds heavier, four doors and a massive trunk (subwoofer depository).

I drove two GTIs yesterday: a loaded model with DSG, 18" rims + summer tires and a base model with 17" rims + all seasons. I wrote up a quick review as a followup to an old Miata forum post. Just stumbled across this thread... from my Miata post:

I took the manual one up to over 100 MPH. I also disabled the ESP for part of the drive to see how it dealt with uneven and sandy surfaces. Overall, I was in the GTIs for over an hour with half that time behind the wheel. My impressions were pretty much what I expected:

The Bad:

Both cars felt heavy. They understeered. Steering feedback was good, but not amazing. The manual shifter didn't compare to Mazdas' and Hondas'. The chassis wasn't especially inspiring.

The Good:

The engine was excellent. No lag and was very responsive at all RPMs. ESP wasn't that intrusive, though when I turned it off I was surprised at how easily I could burn rubber. The steering wheel was very comfortable. The ride was stiffer than the last couple generation GTIs, but it didn't beat us up.

The DSG was the best automatic transmission I've ever driven. It shifted insanely quickly and allowed for very aggressive driving (I think it actually upshifted slightly *above* redline when I floored it). The paddle shifters were quite cool (though I think they should be mounted on the steering column instead of the wheel). However, as good as the DSG was, I would still choose the manual over it (even though I think it shifted faster than I could with the manual). I just didn't feel as connected to the vehicle when driving with the DSG. Not as much fun. But if I had to get a car with an auto, I'd want VW's implementation, no question.

Conclusion:

A fun car, but it doesn't compare to the Miata or RX8. If I had to go back to FWD, I'd choose either the Mini Cooper S or the Civic Si over the GTI. If I had to go with a FWD automatic, the GTI would be it.
It's interesting to now read what some wrote here.

To those of you describing it as a $25k car... you can spend that much, but you don't need to; the base GTI can be had for $22k (I know someone that paid $21.5k). It reminds me of those that call the RX8 a $30-35k car even though it's been easy to get at <$25k for a couple years (and can be had for even less now).

Someone here called the GTI nimble, but it didn't feel nimble at all to me. It wouldn't go so far as to call it a pig, but it wasn't especially responsive to direction changes (I wish they'd base the GTI on the Polo instead of the far-too-heavy Golf). If we're only considering currently-in-production FWD cars, the MCS is still the one to beat as far as being neutral and tossable.

As far as acceleration goes, it was awesome at low RPM (completely crushing the RX8 here) but it did not quite have the RX8's top end. The RX8 felt a little faster overall, but only if when both vehicles were flogged. The GTI definitely won't need as much shifting. In any case, both cars have ample power for daily driving and enough oomph to have some fun.

As far as practicality goes, the GTI has more room in the back though the RX8 also has reasonably spacious rear seats. The sliding front seats make getting into the GTI's back seats fairly trouble-free, but the RX8's back seats are still easier to access (I have a couple small kids; it'd be rough on my back loading them into the GTI). I've been able to carry some large items in the RX8 thanks to its suicide doors, but the GTI's hatch with fold-down-able rear seats offers more utility.

One thing I forgot to mention in the Miata posting was that the seats in the GTI were excellent... very supportive. Ike mentioned that the GTI seats were a little snugger than the STI seats... that's an understatement (compared to the 2005 STI anyway, in which my 160-pound frame slid all over the place).

Anyway, I wasn't blown away by the GTI... especially given that the RWD RX8 and Miata are plenty comfortable to be daily drivers and are reasonably priced.