Why am I mad at Mazda? For totally botching what should have been a wonderful, joyous event: the return of the rotary to the US after a long absence. After years of fun, inexpensive, reliable RX-7s (forgetting the 3rd abberation), we had a long hiatus without new rotary cars. The rotary has a neat history, from the NSU Spyder, through snowmobiles and motorcycles and GM and Mercedes-Benz development, to the lone champion of the Wankel- Mazda. This small Japanese manufacturer, through persistence and innovation, made it successful when no one else could. It's return to the USA should have been one of unbridled joy for the new owners. Sure, I may have passed on the car, but it made me happy that there were rotors spinning on the roads again and that there just may be a successor to my RX-7 somewhere in my future.

What do we have instead? All the buzz on the board is about missing horsepower and endless apologetics for where it has gone. The car has not even been out a month, and this is what we are talking about! EVERY single owner dyno test, as well as print articles (the one where it was barely ahead of a Miata, and the recent Japanese test showing the 210ps and 250ps cars run neck and neck) show that the hi-power 247 hp Renesis is no such thing. With the return of a brand-new rotary, we are faced with many possibilities as to the cause. Some of them are not very good. I have to admit that if I had bought the RX-8 a week ago I would be going through major buyer's remorse right now.

Remember the Audi 5000 and unintended acceleration? Bad publicity CAN klll a car... and this will be spreading through the national news before too long. I give it two weeks max until it hits the likes of the USA Today. People will avoid a car that is a big question mark. The rotary is a question mark for most people: "missing power" will be a huge question mark that will cause them to steer clear of the car.

While all this is happening, the powers that be at Ford are watching and probably shaking their heads. They will give Mazda a little time to fix it; after that, they will pull the plug on future rotary development and the rotary will be gone forever. That would be VERY sad, and the end of an era. I would feel like part of me died if there were no more rotary cars. My old RX-7 definitely deseves to have spiritual decendents on the road!

If Ford pulls the plug on the rotary, we may as well forget about Mazda. Someone said, "without the rotary, we wouldn't be Mazda", and I believe that is true for a lot of reasons... but with Ford in the picture, it takes on new meaning. Without a unique car like the RX-8, Mazda will slowly morph into Ford of Japan. In ten years it will be hard to tell Mazdas apart from Fords.

With that said, i am starting to think I may HAVE to buy an RX-8, even if it is not my favorite drive, as it could be my last chance to own a new rotary-powered car. If Mazda botches this, that's it for future rotaries. Why didn't they just say it was 220hp? The Lexus IS300 sells with 225. If I get an RX-8, by the time it comes in there will be some better shocks and anti-sway bars to make it handle more like my Miata.

That said, why not bring over the 210hp 5-speed for $22,500? It would sell, if sales are what they are after! Apparently it is almost as fast as the hi-power. Less to go wrong., too... I wonder about the fuel mileage.

OK, enough ranting. Mazda, PLEASE straighten this out soon... the looks are enough to sell the car...

Well I just hope we do get some kind of feedback soon. And some more real owner 1/4 mile times would be nice too, just to see if maybe even with a 180whp dyno the 8 can pull off mid 14's easy as it should with the claimed hp/weight ratio. I still like this car very much, I WANT it to produce the numbers the mags got, at $37K Canadian it's the best car for the money imo. I'm also confident that this "problem" if there is one will be fixed, I just hope it's done before the word of mouth does too much damage to the image of the car. Mazda better not underestimate the power of the Internet. :(

Wishing once again I had the :rolleyes icon.

I'm really getting tired of all the whining about the HP. Did Mazda make a mistake? Yep. But the Chicken Little response is getting to be a bit much. I have little doubt that it'll show up at some point, and Mazda has some face saving to do. If this isn't resolved in a little while and it continues to spread on the internet, then I agree it could have an impact on RX-8 sales. I doubt that will happen. Mazda is aware of the bad press and will have to take care of it in some way. Does it detract from how the car drives? Nope. I do feel for the people who pre-ordered if the horsepower isn't found, but I don't have one tiny bit of sympathy for anyone who test drove the car before buying. Even the people who pre-ordered will probably have an out if Mazda deals with this like they did with the Miata.

Either you like how the car drives or you don't. Anyone who bases their decision to buy on numbers (other than pre-order folks) deserves no sympathy. As for whether or not the whole mess gets fixed - give it some time! Mazda will let everyone know what's going on in short order, I imagine.

Chill already!

Hello Don,

Man, that was an emotional filled little piece of typing there. I could almost hear the violins in the background as I read it. :D

Don't take my comments too negatively, I think I understand your interest and enthusiasm around the uniqueness of the rotary and what the 8 means to Mazda and the rotaries future.

As an owner of the car, I can say that I am pleased with it even considering the absence of the 'horses' which I was told are supposed to be under the hood. But you are 100% right, if this turns out to be a fiasco on Mazda's end, it will not matter if the car "still performs well" or is a "good car". The damage will be done and the bad press could bury the car. It would be a huge FUBAR.

Looking from the outside in, and not knowing anything about the car, would someone buy it after hearing this news (assuming it turns out to be true). The short answer would probably be, "hell no".

What I'm also seeing on this board (and understandably so) is the sugar coating people or putting on this. First, if this is false then shame on the people jumping the gun. But if it turns out to true, then basically Mazda lied thru their teeth and that is a dis-service to the pre-orders and others who "expected" to get what they paid for.

I'm curious to see what happens, frankly I don't know how many dyno's have been done so far, but it seems a little premature to shoot the Mazda messenger. Again, "if it turns out to be true", you won't see me defending Mazda, they better come up with some compensation for falsely advertising their product.

Originally posted by Rich
I don't have one tiny bit of sympathy for anyone who test drove the car before buying.

I do... someone test-driving their own car with a fresh engine probably did not take it above 6,000 rpm, where the power is supposed to be.

Rich,

I am not taking a stand either way on the subject until the final proof has been determined. You seem to fall into my "sugar coating" analogy. Your "test drive" statement is silly, when somebody ADVERTISES something they better damn will deliver, end of story. Good ole DonMiata is just doing some early venting but your statements are just as emotionally changed as his. He is the "doomsday caller" and you are "wearing rose colored glasses". I am waiting to see what the true verdict will be.

P.S. Don't talk my statement harshly, I'm not trying to incite or pick a fight. :)

Mad at Mazda? Ok, time for some critical self evaluation...

What has happened on this forum over the last week has GOT to be the biggest 'group freakout' in internet forum history. Seriously, if I were still in marketing, I would be taking notes on how to destroy the momentum of a product through pure speculation and heresay. It's a sight to see. It boggles the mind how quickly the 'Real Mazda/Rotary Believers' have been willing to assume the worst about this car and this company.

Let me see if I can replicate the hysteria casserole recipe:

Add a couple of third party unverified dyno runs on different types of dynos on hot days on semi-green cars with numberous electro-gizmos just waiting to skew normal results

Fold in a large handful of COMPLETE IGNORANCE about what the driveline losses or break in period should be and beat until panic sets in...

Add a quarter teaspoon of delay from a large company that (big surprise) is taking a while to respond while probably foolishly evaluating if there even IS a problem,

Remove and set aside (this is always tricky) the valid points raised and possible explanations from rotary experts and the common sense crowd as well as the test results from any magazine that doesn't prove the "HP Hysteria" theory

And last, throw in a few medium sized Trolls for extra ZING!

thanks Rich for some perspective! personally i think the car has pretty decent power now! i haven't taken over @6k rom yet except once and the power seems to be there. now on th eother hand if it doesn't meet the specs mazda has provided then i should get something for it. chill everyone and enjoy driving your cars for awhile! Mazda will respond soon enough. go drive!!

You know, 220HP with 22mpg would not be too bad but the combination of bad mileage
and false advertising is a little too much to take lying down.
Thanks for articulating what a lot of us feel, DonMiata and brothervoodoo.
We are all waiting for a response from Mazda.

Really Don relax it's just a car. The rx8 is a great buy , for under 30 k you get alot for your money. You try to find this kind of technology from another car company for the dollars. You might want to do alittle more research before you express your opion.

Shamus, that was a well thought out response, I agree, everybody needs to relax and let's see what happens.

I agree with you voodoo, I am securely in the hang-em high crowd if it turns out Mazda fudged the numbers, or doesn't do the right thing if they just miscalculated. But these posts lambasting Mazda for something that is at this point nothing but heresay is really ticking me off. (can ya tell - grin)

Mazda should respond asap, but I think that many of us on this forum should exercise a little more patience and be more willing to acknowledge that the concerns havn't been proven to be well founded yet.

(oh, just saw your response to-my-response... anyway, thanks and I like your color combo, that's the one I'm looking at)

Originally posted by ncwanab
Really Don relax it's just a car. The rx8 is a great buy , for under 30 k you get alot for your money. You try to find this kind of technology from another car company for the dollars. You might want to do alittle more research before you express your opion.

True, it is just a car... that does put it in perspective. But based on the amount of time we spend on this board, I think it means a bit more than that to most of us.

As for "try to find this kind of technology from another car company for the dollars", what good is the technology if the results (lower power and poor fuel economy) are sub-par?

As for do a little more research... how? What did I miss?

I'd like to kindly ask the person who posted about "rose colored glasses" to let me know what I said to give that impression. Particularly since I agree with some of the same people you're agreeing with!

Don, you're right about the people who test drove their own cars. I meant (and left unsaid) people who actually took a real test drive. The dealership that I bought my Miata from has an RX-8 simply for test driving, and the salesman told me not to be scared to rev it. That's what I meant by a test drive. I did take a real test drive, and loved the car. If I were in the market right now, I'd buy a 220 HP RX-8 (if that's what I drove) in a heartbeat. Anyone who did that and is now having regrets for the sole reason that the stat sheet *might possibly* have changed is the person I have no sympathy for. People who buy cars based on horsepower stats, 0-60 times, and skidpad numbers alone deserve the kind of car they end up with.

My point is simply this - the whining is all out of proportion to the amount of time Mazda has had to deal with this. Based on the inputs we've recieved from people who have extensive experience with rotary engines, there may very well be nothing to worry about. If the max power *does* turn out to be 220 HP, the I agree with Don wholeheartedly! It's just way too premature to get upset over 3 dyno plots (at least, I've only heard of 3) on green engines! Until Mazda either releases a statement, we get dyno plots from 5k, 10k, etc. engines or a reasonable amount of time passes, all of this is simply Chicken Little stuff. Far too much gnashing of teeth over something that may or may not actually be an issue. If it becomes an issue, I'll be 100% with you Don, but I'm not ready to whine to Mazda yet.

true, if mazda has false advertised, by accident or otherwise, then there must be compensation, and we should all be pissed off, and rightfully

however, i really doubt that there is something wrong, we have very little evidence, that is very verky sketchy.

the fact that people are freaking out so badly is really surprising

im sure that this will all be cleared up soon
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The test drive issue is irrelavant. I did not let the angry hornets fly (as mentioned in a review as a rocket takeoff) I drove the car normally; however, Mazda cannot sell a car stating it has thus and such when it really doesn't. A few years ago they did this with the Miata we bought - incorrectly stated horsepower and they offered a compensation. That difference though was not this severe . I continue to hope that it is the ECU mapping. The car is a wonderful car BUT those who already possess the car are the ones who deserve the benefit of action. Mazda WILL HAVE to deal with this quickly or suffer the fates of the cut-throat marketplace. With all the hype over this car I cannot imagine that they would slit their own throat. My specific question is, DOES THE ECU REMAP AND IF SO, WHEN?

yeah, everyone knows that yuo cant "self-terminate"

i really dont think that there is any way they would do something like that on purpose, or even do it at all. there is too much riding on this car for soemthign like that to happen.
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Y'know, I was just thinking... the incorrectly advertised HP hardly killed the Miata. Maybe it really doesn't matter in terms of the car ultimately being successful.

yeah, but the miata didnt have one o dem new fangled ratary injins in it

plus the rotary already has some bad press due to the rx-7 overheating so often...

hopefully nothing terrible will hapen IF there is a problem, but im still confident that there isnt a problem
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IF the advertised hp rating is wrong, it would seem there are several other issues to consider. Is the difference significant? Did Mazda knowingly make false representations about hp? If so, it would seem that the purchase contract could be voided and we get our money back. I don't want that after waiting for two years. IF there is a significant hp difference from advertised to actual, how does Mazda make it right for us? Rebate $X? Offer to recall and put in a turbo? (That would be my preference).

For now, I'm setting this aside so as not to get too worked up over what may be a nonissue (I hope).

Originally posted by RodsterinFL
The test drive issue is irrelavant. I did not let the angry hornets fly (as mentioned in a review as a rocket takeoff) I drove the car normally;
As I already said, if it was your car, that's understandable, and I believe you *might possibly* have reason to be upset. However, for those of us who drove the car all-out, it's completely relevant. If someone doesn't like the car after the only thing that *might possibly* have changed is the spec sheet, that's really pathetic. If the car had enough power before, that has not changed!

This reminds me about the Palm M130 (http://msn-cnet.com.com/2100-1040-954357.html) flap when it was found that it only showed 58,000 colors as opposed to the 65,000 colors. Big f'in deal. Perhaps 0.1% of users really notice the difference, but for everyone else who owns one the difference is trivial. If it worked well enough before, it still works just the same now. Again, I only believe this if the power really isn't there (unlikely, IMHO) and doesn't apply to people who pre-ordered or were not able to get in a real test drive.


Originally posted by RodsterinFL
A few years ago they did this with the Miata we bought - incorrectly stated horsepower and they offered a compensation. That difference though was not this severe .
Actually, it wasn't any more severe. Right now it looks like the RX-8 is missing 20HP, which is about 8%. The Miata was missing 13 (155-142), which is 8.4%. Besides, we still don't know if it's really missing the power!

Originally posted by RodsterinFL
DOES THE ECU REMAP AND IF SO, WHEN?

I have the same question, but we're just going to have to be patient.

Don, I think this is a different issue than the Miata. The Miata has never had any claim as a fast (or even quick) car in a straight line. People buying a Miata knew they were getting a car that was slow in a straight line. Also, that car had years of spectacular history behind it - how many Automobile Magazine all-star and C&D 10 best lists did it have at the time? I don't remember if that was before or after R&T named it one of the 5 "World's Best Cars".
The RX-8 is in a different situation. If there are doubts about the rotary engine, that will scare lots and lots of people off. If the missing HP is really not there, then I think it will be a far more serious blow to the RX-8 and Mazda than the 13 HP that were missing from the Miata.

LesPaul - With the Miata they gave consumers a few options. I don't recall exactly what they were, but I believe they offered a choice of cash ($500, IIRC), free maintenance (not sure how long, possibly lifetime or during the warranty period), or a buy-back of the car. I could be off on some of those, but I'm pretty sure they're close.