I late 2005, I installed the Greddy turbo/manifold and parts of the harness (the O2 dongle) into my custom system. I did this for testing purposes and to address some of the problems people have been having with the system.

There are three MAJOR problems with the Greddy system as it is shipped (with the "blue" e-manage):




The air pump runs for an unspecified amount of time after the ignition is turned off
The turbo is run on the verge of surge and is often over-speeding
The fueling scheme is inconsistent and causes the PCM to go into wild LTFT spasms
Problem #1 is, for most people, seemingly just an annoyance. However, running the pump when it is not needed drains the battery, wears and over-heats the pump and is functionally pointless. In fact, this problem actually keeps the entire PCM and EFI system running. In my case, the pump won't shut off at all if the car is put into the run position and then turned off without starting the engine! This is bad.
The fix is fortunately very simple.
The cause is the O2 fooler dongle that is included in kits released after the problem with the air pump outlet hose positioning in the downpipe was realized after complaints to Greddy. On the older kits, a CEL would be thrown because the ECU wouldn't see appropriately lean mixtures during air pump operation due to the late mixing of the air pump output (the factory setup has the air pump feeding directly into the manifold; the Greddy system puts this air in the downpipe right at the sensor). The dongle that was added sends a lean signal to the front O2 sensor during normal pump operation. It does this by hijacking the O2 sensor inputs to the PCM and applying a resistor across them when the air pump is turned on. The problem is that this dongle acts as a conduit to ground for the air pump relay when the motor is turned off because of the way it is wired. Fixing this requires that a diode be placed inline with the "trigger" wire to the dongle from the air pump relay wire on the Greddy harness.
This dongle has four wires - two light blue that are attached to the O2 sensor signal wires, a red wire that is hooked up to switched power and a green wire that goes to the air pump output of the PCM.
A diode (I always use 1N4007 or equivalent because they are cheap, readily available and can handle a fair amount of current) is spliced into this green wire with the cathode pointed to the PCM and the anode pointed to the dongle. This allows the air pump signal to pull the dongle to ground but not the opposite that would occur otherwise.
Simply locate the green wire for the air pump dongle and splice the diode in with the "banded" connection on the harness side. Do not confuse this green wire with the similar wire that goes to the temperature sensor dongle which has four wires as well - white, black, yellow and green.

Problem #2 is a little more complex and troubling, but the solution is equally simple.
Because Greddy chose to acquire the wastegate signal from the manifold rather than the turbo outlet, the turbo is constantly trying to produce boost. Nominally in all other systems I have either built or worked with, the wastegate signal is plumbed to the outlet of the turbo so that it will open when there is no need for boost.
Because the wastegate doesn't open at part throttle, the turbo spools up to very high boost levels - possibly beyond 20 PSI. This boost has nowhere to go as the kit is shipped and ends up stalling the compressor. Those with blow-off valves installed find that the valve often opens, causing a rich condition and stumbling as well as idle problems and stalling.
Unchecked, this over-speed condition will eventually destroy the turbo's bearings or worse. It also causes the PCM to retune for the lost air on BOV-equipped vehicles. Furthermore, it may damage the throttle body (some have experienced this, IIRC) and puts a lot of stress on the rest of the cold side of the system.
The fix is to simply install a vacuum nipple in the outlet pipe of the turbo and plumb a line to the wastegate. You can use an 1/8" nipple with an 1/8" NPT fitting tapped into the pipe. This can be done in about an hour with simple tools and a drill and the parts are available at Home Depot and the like.
The drawback is that the net maximum boost in the intake manifold will be about 2 PSI lower on cars not equipped with boost controllers. Those with boost controllers can program in the desired target boost and the net benefit is that the controller will have finer control over the boost since the cracking point will be effectively lower due to the earlier availability of pressure. This means equally fast spool without the surge and less over-shoot. This fix is absolutely essential to the survival of the turbo itself.
It also has the side benefit of making the part throttle/off-idle drivability much easier because the throttle isn't always fighting boost. Now you are not forced to spin your wheels every time you leave a stop light (though you still can if you want to).

Problem #3 is the result of a lack of R&D on Greddy's part. The fueling scheme on the E-Manage Blue relies too heavily on a mish-mosh of fuel adding MAPS that tend to interact with each other in a negative way and are further interfered with by the PCM.
The solution is the one that MadDog (Tim) and I had postulated and Tim worked out in painstaking detail over the last month or so.
It is the simplest of all three of these, though it takes a careful eye and requires the Support Tool and cable for the E-Manage - just cut two wires and load Tims most recent MAP.
The two wires are on the smallest connector on the PCM side of the harness (the middle of 5) and are wired to the E-Manage harness via two wires each - LB/R & G/R for one and W/R & P/R for the other. These are the signal wires from the PCM to the primary 2 injectors on each of the two rotors. The E-Manage connections should stay in place on the solid side of the harness adapter. Just cut the two yellow wires to which they are shrink-wrapped at the PCM side of the adapter. These are the top-right two wires as seen looking at the connector from the back towards the PCM itself. Refer to the wiring diagram if you are unsure which of these wires are the correct ones.
This small connector is only used on "high-power" RX-8s for controlling two of the unique features of that engine - the two additional injectors and the tertiary intake port activator (APVM). Therefore, it only has 5 wires going into it and the rest of the connector is unused. However, the GReddy adapter has all of the wires connected across the plug and socket for some reason.
The new fueling MAP that Tim worked out pushes ALL of the additional fueling requirements under boost off onto the primary 2 injectors where it should have been in the first place. These injectors are totally under-utilized in the normally aspirated condition of the Renesis and are placed completely under control of the E-Manage by severing these two wires.
The net result is almost no LTFT issues and a completely smooth transition into boost-fueling and consistent A/F ratios.

The combination of all the fixes yields a far superior driving experience and greater reliability and life from the GReddy components as well as the affected Renesis parts.

For those that have the newer kits shipped with the GReddy e-manage Ultimate, or have acquired the Ultimate upgrade kit, fixes #1 and #2 still apply.
The fueling scheme is entirely different, though it poses a different set of difficulties, depending on when you bought the kit.
GReddy is constantly changing the tuning on these systems and it is difficult to know what to recommend without first seeing how the injectors are wired.

:bowdown: Great write-up, Jeff. :bowdown: Thanks for working on these issues for the benefit of the community.

I can't wait to try the solution to Problem #2. My only complaint with this system has been the almost unavoidable boosting on take-off. Its like I'm trying to race from every single stoplight in town! Its fun, but its takes too much effort not to peel-out every time.

I really hope your solution works equally well for me! Thanks again, Jeff. You are an asset to our community.

Awesome info and DIY´s! This should be in the Hall-of-fame! (If there were one;)

Jeff should get a trophy. A big gold one. Thanks for your help. I'll definitely be installing the fitting for the wastegate before I put my new turbo on.

Thank you for an excellent write up.Two minor questions:
- did you plumb your nipple into the discharge pipe on the compressor case(as on a TII for example ,or did you go into the pipe mated to the compressor discharge flange?

-is it absolutely essential to sever the P2 injectors,or are there still problems with the transition to boost and back.

-is it absolutely essential to sever the P2 injectors,or are there still problems with the transition to boost and back.


I ran it for a while during my trials with all the fuel pushed to the P2's without severing them. The only issue is that when both the emanage and the PCM are sending firing pulses to the injectors (over 6kRPM), the resulting signal can look a little ragged. Since the injectors get a ragged signal, it can make the AFR a little rough, too. Generally, this is not a problem since the injectors are delievering, on average, the specified fuel. But, in the interest of consistency and control, there's just no reason not to cut them loose from the PCM. The result is a very flat AFR curve. Plus, you should sleep a little better knowing that you are in total control of the fuel that you are trying add.

Before running this strategy, there was a pronounced tendancy for the AFR to run very lean when going from vacuum to boost. I saw AFRs of near 16. I never had detonation, but this made for some very disconcerting (and herky-jerky) moments on the freeway, where boost comes very easily! Now, I have no issues with AFR when going into boost. It goes gradually richer as I transition into boost without the annoying lean spikes that used to be there before a) you really got into boost or b) got nervous and laid into the throttle just to richen things up.

Great info, but some pics would help out.

Thank you for an excellent write up.Two minor questions:
- did you plumb your nipple into the discharge pipe on the compressor case(as on a TII for example ,or did you go into the pipe mated to the compressor discharge flange? I did it in the bolted-on right angle pipe that Greddy includes. It is easier to reach with the turbo installed.
In theory, you could do it anywhere before the throttle, but the closer to the turbo, the better.

-is it absolutely essential to sever the P2 injectors,or are there still problems with the transition to boost and back.See Tim's answer above.
Considering that it is a 30 second mod, I'd recommend it.:hahano:

Problem #3 ...........The net result is almost no LTFT issues ..........
Does thing mean having to retune after a certain amount of time?
Also, what is the max possible boost attainable with this new fuel scheme?

Does thing mean having to retune after a certain amount of time?
Also, what is the max possible boost attainable with this new fuel scheme?This seems to completely eliminate the PCM's tendency to tune out the changes, so after you are tuned it will stay that way.

Maximum safe boost at redline with the OEM injectors is about 7 PSI. You could probably go higher, but You would have to check your A/Fs.
With a set of the secondary injectors from an automatic tranny-equipped RX-8 in the primary 2 positions (like Tim has done) you should be able to do 9 PSI easily and maybe as high as 11.
It all comes down to your particular situation and any flow adjustments that may be in place. 1 PSI on my car is not 1 PSI on yours and 80% duty cycle on your car may be a totally different amount of fuel in mine.

where were you on my car jeff
:(

One question... so in this setup you are able to hold boost to redline, Jeff?

:ylsuper: Give Da Man a medal !!! :ylsuper:

You should get a commish from Greddy Bro !!

Ciao

Dave

Great info, but some pics would help out.
I agree completely.

Problem #2 The fix is to simply install a vacuum nipple in the outlet pipe of the turbo and plumb a line to the wastegate. You can use an 1/8" nipple with an 1/8" NPT fitting tapped into the pipe. This can be done in about an hour with simple tools and a drill and the parts are available at Home Depot and the like.
The drawback is that the net maximum boost in the intake manifold will be about 2 PSI lower on cars not equipped with boost controllers. Those with boost controllers can program in the desired target boost and the net benefit is that the controller will have finer control over the boost since the cracking point will be effectively lower due to the earlier availability of pressure. This means equally fast spool without the surge and less over-shoot. This fix is absolutely essential to the survival of the turbo itself.
It also has the side benefit of making the part throttle/off-idle drivability much easier because the throttle isn't always fighting boost. Now you are not forced to spin your wheels every time you leave a stop light (though you still can if you want to).



Does this fix apply to greddy setup with interceptor-x also?

Thanks.

The new fitting for the wastegate control line does apply to those with the Interceptor. The other two do not.

where were you on my car jeff
:(You broke it too quick!

Nice job Jeff & Tim, this info is great for those who don't have the money to upgrade the ECU and want to work with what they have.

its sad Greddy couldn't figure this stuff out, but it always seems to take a few blow motors in all cars to figure out the limits of aftermarket turbo kits.

I've been following all this closely as I've been doing some ECU tuning of my own NA. I think your solutions should provide stability and protection to the engines running less than 7psi.

This should be a sticky

This deserves to be a sticky!

Sooo...does Greddy know about these issues/fixes yet?

I haven't looked into this thoroughly yet, so this is half-baked. But, if you have a boost controller that totally removes the signal from the wastegate until you reach a certain boost, wouldn't this negate the fix to problem #2?

I haven't looked into this thoroughly yet, so this is half-baked. But, if you have a boost controller that totally removes the signal from the wastegate until you reach a certain boost, wouldn't this negate the fix to problem #2?


YEAP

Not necessarily. If you tap the WG and pressure sensor for the boost controller at the manifold it will hold the WG shut until Xpsi is established in the manifold. But if you tap it directly after the compressor, or really anywhere before the throttle body, then it will open the wastegate at Xpsi in the compressor. The difference under full throttle will be minimal, 1psi or so. But at part throttle the throttle plate can act as a significant restriction, as its intended to. So the difference could be significant.

There's no need to make 20psi at the compressor to squeeze 7psi into the manifold because your at 30% throttle.

^Assuming you have the pressure gage at the same place you are taking the pressure line to the boost controller. But, you should have the pressure gage after the throttle body - not on the turbo outlet. Otherwise, you, and your EMS, would have no idea what's really going into the engine.

I'm saying that your ems pressure sensor and boost gauge should be tapped after the TB, but the boost controller pressure sensor and wastegate should be before the TB.

True,but here is my simple solution.In my TII it was called the Air Bypass Valve,itopens when it sees 11inHg vacuum after the TB.

I'm saying that your ems pressure sensor and boost gauge should be tapped after the TB, but the boost controller pressure sensor and wastegate should be before the TB.


Ah.... I see. I'm using only one pressure gage for the boost controller, gage and EMS.

Most boost controllers (the E-01 included) will leave the control valve open if the boost sensor sees vacuum.

Most boost controllers (the E-01 included) will leave the control valve open if the boost sensor sees vacuum.


I was playing around with the 'start boost' setting on my e01. Definitely made the problem a lot worse. I guess that turbo is so spin-happy there's really no reason to have the 'start boost' in effect anyway.

Actually, the start boost is effective when dependant on gain.
Try these settings:
Set 50kPa
Gain 0
Start Boost 20kPa

I hit 50kPa like a surgical scalpel and hold it right to 8900 or so where I usually let off.

Kind of off topic but I have a question or questions that has been burning a hole in my head and you guys seem to know the Greddy turbo kit the most. I been looking for the answer for this for a while but I want a defenetive answer. I have a late 05 8 (if this make any difference). I been hearing that you have to reset the ECU every time you start the 8 with the greddy turbo kit, is this true? Would I have a CEL? Would this fixes on this thread make it better? What is LTFT and why is it so important? Since this is the only turbo kit out that "works" I'm considering one.

Sorry if you guys are tired of answering this question but I need to get it out of my head. I did do a search but all I got was old threads and I wanted new info.

I been hearing that you have to reset the ECU every time you start the 8 with the greddy turbo kit, is this true? No. That would be really annoying. http://www.mazdamaniac.com/portal/smiles/pissed.gifYou want to let the PCM get accustomed to the turbo response and fuel values. If the tuning is way off, eventually the drivability might degrade to the point that you will want to restart the PCM.

Would I have a CEL? Perhaps. Depends on your circumstances. http://www.mazdamaniac.com/portal/smiles/icon_shrug.gifHowever, with the newest version of the kit and the fixes outlined above, it is not likely unless you did something wrong on the install.

Would this fixes on this thread make it better? Absolutely.

What is LTFT and why is it so important? Long Term Fuel Trim. This is how the RX-8 PCM calibrates the response of the fuel injectors. Basically, the PCM tries out a preset duty cycle for every load point it encounters and then compares the front O2 sensor output to see how accurately it get the desired A/F. If the A/F is off, it applies a "correction" value to the preset value (Short Term Fuel Trim - STFT). The average of all the measured correction values are saved as the LTFT, which is then universally applied to the injector control.
The problem that arises is that the PCM sees all kinds of strange A/F behavior under boost and attempts to "correct" it with crazy LTFT values.
Tim's tuning utilizing this new injector setup seems to alleviate the PCM self-tune issues under boost.

mm,
on that note, if the ltft is a positive # is that adding or taking away fuel?????

beers :beer:

Thanks MM

mm,
on that note, if the ltft is a positive # is that adding or taking away fuel?????

beers :beer:Adding. It is expressed as a percentage (0% to about 30%) of a somewhat mystical number - the maximum engineered tolerance. It is probably in the 30% range of total fuel capacity.
So a LTFT of 20% would be 20% of 30% of 100% duty cycle or about 6% added to the output duty cycle.

Most people are getting negative numbers indicating that the PCM is trying to take away fuel because of a perceived rich situation.

not to thread hijack,
mind if i pm you about this. got a ??? or two.

beers :beer:

not to thread hijack,
mind if i pm you about this. got a ??? or two.

beers :beer:[James Brown] Hit me! [/James Brown]

Actually, the start boost is effective when dependant on gain.
Try these settings:
Set 50kPa
Gain 0
Start Boost 20kPa

I hit 50kPa like a surgical scalpel and hold it right to 8900 or so where I usually let off.

So you're in 'auto' mode. I can't get my e01 to learn.

I'm about to go move the wastegate signal right now. I'll report back in a little bit.

No, that is manual mode.
When you are in the display mode, hit the big button to cycle through the boost control settings and set the first one to manual. Then set to 5kPa, gain to zero and start to 20kPa.

Jeff, good job on the work with the eManage. I've always been one to just recommend people go elsewhere for ecu solutions as I never felt it worked good. That's true if anything is done wrong though so good job in getting a cheaper alternative that many already have to work to a useable level which it definitely does not do as Greddy supplies it. It makes me wonder how good Greddy really is when they can't even make their own product work properly. Then again I've always thought that way of Greddy when it comes to electronics.

Well, I think Greddy has a lot going for it, but they are not very good at finishing what they start.
Someone over there must know what they are doing because their fit and finish is good and their layout, design and fabrication is really good. Then they seem to loose interest in what they are doing and move on before it is really ready for prime time. They are a bit like a kid with ADD.
Their electronics are the same way. Incredible design and execution then no real usability process.

That said, I think they view themselves as facilitators rather than producers of a finished product. At least, that is the way I view them.

No, that is manual mode.
When you are in the display mode, hit the big button to cycle through the boost control settings and set the first one to manual. Then set to 5kPa, gain to zero and start to 20kPa.


The reason I said you must be in 'auto' mode is that I get no pressure units when I'm in manual mode - I only have units of %.

Oh yeah. I guess it doesn't indicate units. I don't have it in front of me at the moment.
Sorry.

Okay. I just got back from my test drive with the new wastegate signal location. What a difference! The throttle response is much, much smoother now. Small changes in the position of the throttle used to result in crazy fluctuations in power as you entered boost. With Jeff's new setup that hypersensitivity is gone. The drivability is greatly improved! Also, I can take-off from a light at medium speed. It used to be all or nothing.

GREAT WORK, JEFF! :beerchug:

Here's a pic. I used a 1/4NPT - 1/4 hose barb fitting.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/portal/smiles/dubs.gifhttp://www.mazdamaniac.com/portal/smiles/git.gifhttp://www.mazdamaniac.com/portal/smiles/rock.gif

:101384_l:

Got my replacement LC-1 in today, too. This time, its thoroughly wrapped in thermotec. I donno what's making them burn-out on me...

Its time to tune! :rock:

Where are you actually mounting the unit?
Where is the sensor as well?

The controller is kind of next to the firewall, behind the intake manifold. The sensor is on the expansion section of the cat housing.

I wonder if the heat rising off of the exhaust manifold is affecting your LC-1?

I have the unit mounted inside my passenger-side aero skirt just in front of the rear wheel.
The sensor is in the mid pipe, about a foot from the rear O2 sensor. I don't have a CAT, so I can mount it there and still get acurate A/F readings.

Here is your last MAP with added ignition timing control and all of the sub injector values limited to 86%. The remainder I pushed off onto the add injector map.
this should work 1-for-1 since the secondaries are the same volume as the P2s.
The only issue is what happens to the P1s since they are saturated at that point.
I am going to disconnect mine and see what happens. That will leave the add-injector map controlling only the secondaries.
I have already separated my P2s from the add-injector wires as well as the PCM wires.

Nice. A good option for those without larger P2's. Say, what's the definition of standalone again? :ylsuper:

I was suspecting the heat as well. 3 layers of thermotec will hopefully help. Its a bitch getting that bundle through the firewall every couple of months....

Well, its a beautiful day to tune in the land of road runners and chili! 50 degrees and not a cloud in the sky!

I've been risking my neck all morning tuning this beast on the desolate (and, of course, private) roads around here. I've made some great progress. This fuel management strategy is so easy to tune. I'm not done yet, but I wanted to go ahead and share something in case someone else (jeff) is tuning today.

I made a change to the fuel MAP this morning that improved the throttle response almost as much as relocating the wastegate signal. Before this change, approaching boost, letting off the throttle, and then getting back on the throttle would result in lean spikes in the AFR and a kind of bumpy ride. I suspected this was because the fuel added was turning on and off abruptly at 0psi as I twekaed the throttle around +/- 0psi. (going straight into boost wasn't a problem).

I was right. I added a line at -5kPa and added a tiny amount of fuel to the 0psi line in the MAP. This fixes this problem. Now, there is a tiny, but important addition of fuel as you are near boost. I also changed the VTEC settings so the temp dongle comes on at 0psi. I doubt this even matters, since the LTFT is pretty much eliminated by this whole strategy. But, what the hay.

I'd reccomend this addition to anyone running the eManage - even if you haven't yet migrated to the new strategy. It really smoothes things out nicely. This, in combination with Jeffs solution #2, have made a huge difference in the around-town drivability.

Enclosed is a pic of my latest 490cc injector map. You can see the addition of 2% duty cycle at 0psi before 6kRPM.

I''ve also decided to refine the MAP around the opening of the intake ports at ~4250 RPM. Since the MAP is turning out to be very nearly a linear interpolation across both boost and RPM, I am going to sacrifice one of my RPM columns to specifically attack that lean spike. I'll post the resulting MAP later today. I might even convert it for you 390cc types (insert 'Jeff') if I'm feeling generous! ;)

Awesome. I was never satisfied with the acceleration map as the only cure for transitional lean spikes.
Did you get a chance to look at what I did to the MAP with regards to minimizing the effect of +85% duty cycle? I am realizing now that it won't work like I want it to. I need to find out what the ACTUAL duty cycles are of the secondaries at each of the load points and then add a percentage that is equal in time to the original intent of the P2 sub-injector map.

Only 50°? It was 75° in Phoenix. Of course, it is only 48° and raining in DC.
I won't get a chance to play with the car again until February 27th.
Hopefully by then I'll be able to source a set of secondary injectors by then.

I might even convert it for you 390cc types (insert 'Jeff') if I'm feeling generous! ;)Please please please! I was never good at math!
I think I can figure this one out. All you have to work on is the "0" line? I might be able to handle that one.:D:

How is this:

Hey MM you don't have to suck up anymore,new 490cc injectors are a LOT cheaper than you thought!

Hey MM you don't have to suck up anymore,new 490cc injectors are a LOT cheaper than you thought!OK, I'll bite. Who has 'em? Mazda wants almost $500 for each and MazMart doesn't have any in stock.

check you PM

Hey two rotors, why not post for everyone, where to buy...thanks

Oh sorry about that,but I was merely pointing out that the list price for fuel injectors from Mazda dealers(in Canada) is $198.65 each(part no N3H2-13-250). All 3 injector types,ie
N3H1-13-250A,N3H2-13-250 and N3H3-13-250A are the same price.
So if you divide by 1.13,that will give you the $US price,and you should be able to negotiate a discount.
As of 02 Feb06 there were 49 injectors in MNAO warehouses(or more correctly in Catapillar Logistics warehouses).

Thought I'd post some progress on the tuning. I know this picture looks like crap, but its the best I can do right now. I did make a rediculous attempt at drawing-in the lines so you could see them a little better. Its boost, RPM, and AFR as a function of time.

You can plainly see the two lean spikes that occur when the ports open. You can also see that I have tuned the AFR a little richer around those spikes to compensate. Just to give you points of reference, boost starts at 9psi and is at 8psi in the middle. AFR is pretty constant at about 11.3-11.7, except at the lean spikes where it reaches 12. The plot starts at 2600 RPM. I'm at full boost at 3200 RPM. The lean spikes occur at 4360RPM and 6230RPM.

One of the things that makes tuning these spikes out with any precision such a bitch is that they occur at different RPMs (as a function of load, I suppose). I'm trying to keep the rich areas to a minimum RPM width. I'd like to see a AFR trace from someone with an Interceptor. I'm sure the spikes are there, too. It would be neat to see how they are dealing with them. One thing to keep in mind is that I have my LC-1 ouputing data at the maximum rate. Most dyno tailpipe sniffer 02 sensors don't have the temporal resolution needed to really show these sharp spikes. My dyno shop didn't show them, but my LC-1 sure does. Keep that in mind when you have your cars tuned, fellas. Eventhough you are paying a "professional" to tune it, you should still have the ability to keep an eye on things yourself.

I'm liking this tune so far. Power is nice and smooth all the way to redline.

When tuning those spikes out, make sure that you are starting your fuel-add about 500 RPM before the spike.

One of the difficulties of the E-manage for tuning out spikes is the way it "interprets" the vaues between the cells. One way I found to do it is to group 3 RPM pionts close together around the spikes and then use the center one to drop the spike from the values on either side. That way it doesn't spread the averaging over a larger RPM range. The only problem is we don't have enough RPM cells to do this and handle the rest of the tuning range. It might be worth it to try on the APV spike at 6250. If the fuel needs are relatively linear you might be able to use less cells for that and have enough left over to handle the spikes.

The other problem with "spike" removal is that the spikes aren't always in the same spots...although with the P2's severed it would negate the factory PCM from adjusting the fuel to them to change the A/F when it wants

Hello? Is this thing on? (tap tap tap)

As I said before, the map turns out to be very nearly a perfect 2D linear interpolation with RPM and pressure. Therefore, there is no benefit to having columns devoted to specifying additional RPM points if they are just on a straight line between the adjacent columns anyway. The emanage will do that interpolation for you.

I actually computed the error between a perfect 2D linear interpolation, and the existing RPM columns that were occuring every 500 RPM. The error terms form a 14X16 matrix, since there are 14 columns that could be removed from the total of 16 columns. I found several columns in my MAP that had maximum errors of less than 3% duty cycle. Error = (interpolated value) - (actuall value). Most of the error terms were below 5% across the board anyway. The fact that the Renesis can be tuned with a nearly linear function indicates that tuning this thing aint rocket science. I relocated these columns with the smallest error terms to increase the resolution around the first lean spike.

I chose one column from the low range and one from the high range, to increase the resolution around the lean spike that occurs between 4250 and 4500 RPM.

Here is what the current MAP looks like. See that nice little ridge in the vacinity of the first spike?

Next, I'm going to move one of those lines clustered around the first spike to tackle the second one.

Here is my first cut at addressing the second spike.

Hello? Is this thing on? (tap tap tap)

HUH?

Anyway...youare the man with the charts...I only wish that I could do that in excel...if you have a template to play with...please post it. That is cool :D:

Have you found that the opening point for the SDAIS valves is always the same...and the spikes are in the same place with your setup....cause they used to move around for me based on the load/time thing...

Also...how much do you think small spikes like you have it down too are a problem??

Yeah, those graphs really help the visualization. But, I'm not using excel, I'm using Matlab. That's also what I use to do the 2D interpolation for changing the boost or RPM values, scaling for different injectors, etc.

The spikes definitely move around. They occur at lower RPM in the low gears, and higher RPM in the high gears.

As long as I can get the peak of the spike to around 12, then I think I'm okay. That seems like a reasonable trade-off.

Can you bracket the peak and richen it up a bit earlier to carry it forward over the spike? That might give you a small loss for the added safety of the whole map. Like MM said...if you start a bit earlier..it will buffer the spike and won't go as lean. Personally I don't think that the small spikes that you have will be a problem.

You have done a great job with implementing this change.. It makes the kit much more viable for those with the Greddy Kit...or for those that are happy in the HP range that can be derived from this turbo.

Can you bracket the peak and richen it up a bit earlier to carry it forward over the spike? That might give you a small loss for the added safety of the whole map. Like MM said...if you start a bit earlier..it will buffer the spike and won't go as lean.

That's exactly what I am trying to do. The log that I posted shows it richening up before the spike arrival. I am playing games with the RPM values that I can use to give me A) the narrowest rich zone. B) still address the fact that the spike occurs at different RPM values. C) give satisfactory AFR at the peak of the spike. Its an optimization problem.

I don't think those spikes will contribute to a power loss particularly.
I would only worry about the possibility of a detonation event being triggered by that lean spot which could be addressd with a degree or two of retard just before those spots/

.. with a degree or two of retard ...

I'm the retard here. I still haven't implemented the ignition timing control :thumbsdow

Mad...have you wired up you ignition to be able to do the retard?? If I recall (#) the Greddy kit doesn't do ignition adjustments?? Then you need to see what the ECU does to the A?F when you pull a bit of timing :)

Jeff: I assume you have left yours set up to be able to pull timing? What have you noticed if you did??

Jeff: have you logged the fuel injector pulsewith to see which injectors the ECU uses to change the A/F when you change the timing?? Hope it's the P2's :)

Then you need to see what the ECU does to the A?F when you pull a bit of timing :)



Since taking the P2's away from the PCM, there is very little that the PCM can do with the fuel trims to really affect the AFRs any more. I'm in control of a much, much larger volume of fuel than the PCM can adjust via the fuel trims and the remaining injectors.

Jeff: I assume you have left yours set up to be able to pull timing? What have you noticed if you did??One thing I found in my move to Phoenix is that the gas sucks!
Right now, I am running about 2° of timing retard for each pound of boost. I'll probably be able to bring some of that back once I narrow down to the spot where the rattles occur at WOT and full boost. Seems to be in the 4800 range, but I haven't had the time to tune it out.
In MD, this wasn't an issue and I only ran 1° per pound.
It will probably be a bigger issue when the temps start to creep above the 100°F mark.

I don't think the fuel (#) trims are affecting this...the ECU seems to adjust injector pulsewidth directly as the timing changes. I never logged this and was wondering if either of you had. When you get your ignition wired....see how adjusting the timing affects your A/F maps. I found that it really changed things when i played with the e-manage NA.


Bad Fuel really Sucks.......We're lucky here..we get good fuel 94 is readilly available...and they don't piss with it as much because of the temperature

Interesting. I though that the fuel trims were the only vehicle that the PCM had to adjust the injector duty cycle. Could it be that the injector duty cycles were the same, but that the combustion process was more incomplete with the retardation of timing, giving a higher apparent AFR? I have no idea if this could actually be the cause. Just a thought.

Someone would have to log the Injectors...and see what's happening. I just noticed that when you dialed in a map..and then changed the timing...esp advance...that the A/F changed accordingly. FT's are based on the closed loop adjustments and don't occur in open loop areas in real time....so they would only be carried forward after the fact....I don't know.....someone pipe in here and help us out :)

So, I think I have the MAP pretty much where I want it now. AFR is around 11.7, lean spikes are pretty well mitigated.

Remarkably, I found that I can take an even shittier picture of my e-01 screen using my camera phone. But, I was pretty proud of how flat the AFR was. This run was made neck-and-neck with a 3rd gen RX-7. Neither one of us could gain any ground (private road). This was fourth gear to redline, followed by a short burst of 5th gear - I think...

The centerline of the graph is 7040RPM, 6.2psi, 11.7 AFR.

I just wanted to show people what I mean when I say you can get a really flat AFR curve using the eManage and this new fuel strategy. Nice, huh?

I'm very interested to see what kind of spikes I have with the Interceptor when those ports open. I'll definitely post a copy of my datalogs once I get my car back together. I'm not sure if you can adjust the resolution of the datalogs fine enough to see those spikes with my Mazsport unit though. I'll have to give Scott a call and see if it is a fixed rate or is somehow variable.

Problem # 2 - Has anyone got any pictures of this 'fix' ? Since i dont really know what i am doing + mechanics dont really speak english, I need to see this to explain it to them...

I am also highly encouraged by this to give the ignition timing thing that i tried another go... Thanks MM, u da man...

One thing I found in my move to Phoenix is that the gas sucks!
Right now, I am running about 2° of timing retard for each pound of boost. I'll probably be able to bring some of that back once I narrow down to the spot where the rattles occur at WOT and full boost. Seems to be in the 4800 range, but I haven't had the time to tune it out.
In MD, this wasn't an issue and I only ran 1° per pound.
It will probably be a bigger issue when the temps start to creep above the 100°F mark.
yes Phx gas sucks and we pay good money for it too. Bastards !

Sometime when you show up at the pavilions i wnat to see your setup on the 8.

yes Phx gas sucks and we pay good money for it too. Bastards !

Sometime when you show up at the pavilions i wnat to see your setup on the 8.It is rediculous that 91 costs what 94 sells for in DC.
Add to that the corn and crap that is in it and it is almost as bad as Cali gas.
I just bought a 50 gal drum of Toluene. I'll have to hook up a way to pump it from the side yard to the garage.

I'll be doing that Apache Junction drive on the 19th. I probably won't hit the Pavillions until March because I'm usually in DC on the weekends.

Here is the tuned MAP for both the 390cc and 490cc injectors. Its a pretty good tune with AFRs around 11.5-11.8. The lean spikes seem to be tuned down to 11.5 with not too much richness in the surrounding RPM. You can plainly see the additional fuel that compensates for the lean spikes (opening ports) in the fuel surface. I've looked at quite a few load points to test the tune against where the lean spikes occur in the RPM band. I'll continue to try to find any weaknesses in this MAP, but the most frequently visited cells are pretty good.

This run was made neck-and-neck with a 3rd gen RX-7. Neither one of us could gain any ground (private road). This was fourth gear to redline, followed by a short burst of 5th gear - I think...

The centerline of the graph is 7040RPM, 6.2psi, 11.7 AFR.

What's really impressive is the fact that even if you were racing a completely stock 3rd gen RX-7 (which is unlikely as they usually have "something" done to them), it is still running over 9 lbs of boost and weighs about 250 lbs less than you. Who says the Renesis isn't a good engine for forced induction?

Yep. That 3rd gen was totally stock. I was still grinning from ear to ear!

I did just as good against a Ford 331c.i. stroker with headers - although he said it was running rich. Judging by the size of the backfire when he shifted, which was right next to my head, it was running rich. Still, he couldn't put any distance on me at all. From a roll, I was right on his rear quarter panel for at least a quarter mile.

Completely unacceptable!

Don't come back until you are hanging fender-to-fender with a C6 Corvette! :nono:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/portal/smiles/smiley309.gif

Alright, alright... I'll see if I can scare one up somewheres....

Actaully, its really cool! I met a couple of total strangers this weekend that recognized my car because they had heard the BOV around town! I guess the 8 is getting a little street cred' around here! :ylsuper:

It is still one of my favorite pastimes:

Stab the throttle as you pass through an intersection and watch the heads-on-swivels.

It is as if a wolf has lept into a pack of deer.

I was waiting for the light on Ray at 48th and a guy was walking hand-in-hand with his girlfriend through the cross walk. He was staring at the car the whole way through the intersection - so much so that his head was almost completely backwards by the time he got to the other side, at which point I stabbed the throttle and he walked directly into the post that holds the red-light camera.

:yelrotflm :yelrotflm :yelrotflm

Haha! That's classic! I really had no appreciation for how loud the HKS BOV is until I was standing next to it while the car was on the dyno. That goddam thing is almost ear-piercing!

While I haven't made anyone look like a tool in front of their GF (except for guy in a 5.0 who thought he could take me. His GF was in the passenger seat at the time as I put about 2 lengths on him) I do like to cruise the strip where the local kids hangout to talk cars and hit the BOV as I go past a group of STi's or EVO's. No quicker way to get their heads to swing around!

Jeff: have you logged the fuel injector pulsewith to see which injectors the ECU uses to change the A/F when you change the timing?? Hope it's the P2's :)The changes in A/F when you alter the timing is not a direct response from the PCM.
Advancing the timing produces leaner measured A/F and vice-versa.
However, this is not directly corresponding to correct mix for maximum power.
It is all interdependant.

However, the tidbit that is germane to all of this is that the secondaries are already operating close to the maximum that the OEM programming provides when you are operating in boost, so with the P2s severed the PCM has far less ability to fool with boosted A/F.
The secondaries actually have 15% or more left on the table even after the PCM consideres them done. The OEM tuning allowed for the P2s to do all the heavy lifting from that point on.
I can't help but speculate that Mazda intended for this motor to utlimately support closer to 300 HP than 238.

...the list price for fuel injectors from Mazda dealers(in Canada) is $198.65 each(part no N3H2-13-250). All 3 injector types,ie
N3H1-13-250A,N3H2-13-250 and N3H3-13-250A are the same price.
So if you divide by 1.13,that will give you the $US price,and you should be able to negotiate a discount.I'm not sure where you derived those numbers, but the U.S. list price for injectors is $205.25 each. I verified this at three separate stealerships.
Ultimately, I got my buddy Jason at Gaithersburg Mazda to sell them to me at $144 each - $20 UNDER their cost (I made it up to him by buying a MS spoiler at the split price:)). I'll have a pair on Wednesday.

Too bad I won't get to install them until the 27th...:mad:

I can't help but speculate that Mazda (#) intended for this motor to utlimately support closer to 300 HP than 238.


Looking at the way them implemented the injector staging that makes sense...why have the P2's come on like that....with so much extra room. That's not like a car co....:) they usually use barely enough to get the job done...hell....look at the coils they gave us.

"Death to all bean counters" at least the ones at Mazda/Ford :D:

Well I am not sure what to tell you.I have attached most of the Quote!!!

Hmm.

Its like those damn, dirty, dangerous Canadian drugs! Keep 'em out! KEEP 'EM OUT!! :mdrmed: :scratchhe

You gotta love free enterprise,eh!! :patriot:

OK... done the fix from problem #2... It really helped... Yes boost dropped but I have a boost controller... My ECU doesnt do funny stuff anymore like flood the engine at certain points... The car is more drivable now.... BTW I did it at the right hand turn just before the intercooler... It was too much of a hassle to get to the pipe right after the turbo...

I am gonna go home and cut the wires for fix #3 after i get off work.. Which map should i be utilizing. Can find mad dog's map which was mentioned in mm's first post....

If this works out, I'm gonna get that ignition harness to work....

Which map should i be utilizing. Can find mad dog's map which was mentioned in mm's first post....Look at post #52 on page 4 of this thread.

Alright... I'll cave.... I posted jpegs in hopes of avoiding having to type in the values for the latest 390cc MAP that I'll never use myself. But, in the interest of getting one out there that has the lean spike compensation, I'll do it. Give me a couple of hours and I'll post the actual .gsc file later this morning.

Okay, here it is. This is my SeveredMap13, scaled for the folks with 390cc P2's. The fuel required exceeds the maximum duty cycle in some cells. Where this happens, I pushed the remaining fuel over to the Additional Injection map. I used my previous injector logs to estimate the S injector duty cycles at those RPM values. Then, with the PCM-specified duty cycle in hand, the value of the additional injection is (Sinj-100)/(PCM duty cycle). That should get you pretty close to the required fuel by making use of remaining capacity of the S injectors. The P1 injectors are already maxed out.

^^ You are a baaaad dude.

I'll have my new injectors in hand tomorrow. If I can get to Phoenix in only 3 days, I might have enough time to install them on Friday and have it ready for the Sunday drive out in Apache Junction.

^^ You are a baaaad dude.

I'll have my new injectors in hand tomorrow. If I can get to Phoenix in only 3 days, I might have enough time to install them on Friday and have it ready for the Sunday drive out in Apache Junction.


In that case, here is the 490cc injector map. I know you are running timing, but its probably easier to copy your old timing map over than to input all these values by hand. It litterally toook me about 2 hours to install the new injectors. The biggest pain was getting the upper intake manifold off.

Yah, I'll just cut-n-paste the timing MAP.

I'm not sure how long the drive there is going to take this time. Since I'm in a 22 foot truck pulling a trailer with our Miata on it, I don't think I'll be doing any of the trip at 130 MPH like the last time.
I get the truck Sunday in the AM and it will probably take me most of the day to pack it. Whether or not I start driving right away or wait until morning will depend on my motivation at that moment. I figure I am looking at 45 hours of road time, so the earliest I will arrive will be Tuesday morning. I'm thinking it will probably be closer to Wednesday night since I probably won't try to tackle it all at once like I did the last time.
So, I might get those injectors in by Thursday night and you will hear my hooting and hollering all the way in New Mexico somewhere around dawn on Friday...

Since things are running so good at 8.5-9 psi right now, I'm about to start up-ing the boost. I've extrapolated the current MAP to 10psi. I used the same method as I did last time to extrapolate to higher boost levels: fit a linear function to the highest 4 pressures in a given RPM column and evaluate the fitted line at the new pressures. It worked great going from 7.5psi to 9 psi. The resulting values on needed fine tuning by a couple of percentage points. Tuning seems to be pretty linear on the Renesis.

You can see that the bottom left cell in the 10psi MAP pushes the 490cc injectors to 100% duty cycle. I started looking for where the 490cc injectors really start to peter out. Paying attention only to the cells that actually get used in WOT driving, I could boost to about 12psi before running out of capacity - I think. For now, I'm thrilled to be on the brink of double-digit boost! :rock: 10psi is as high as I want to go for now. If only I had a T4 at these boost levels....

One more thing - if it weren't for the ridges in the MAP around those lean spikes, there would be much more available capacity from the 490cc injectors. Someone needs to figure out how to get rid of those by controlling the port timing. I haven't tested the always-open state. That might be the ticket.

I'm going to look into having RC re-port the OEM 390cc injectors out to 550cc.
I am also going to look at RX-7 injectors and see if they are the same as ours, in which case it will be cheaper to simply buy 550cc injectors on e-bay.
That should get us out to 12 PSI quite safely.

cool to hear you and MM have the emanage working properly. greddy owes you two a favor!

Someone needs to figure out how to get rid of those by controlling the port timing.fwiw -- the interceptor can control the port timing, although I don't know if there's much power to be gained by that alone. if it did allow you to push the injectors higher across the the useable power band, then you could pump more boost, but with this dinky turbo I'm not sure how much power that's gonna actually give you.

fwiw -- the interceptor can control the port timing, although I don't know if there's much power to be gained by that alone. if it did allow you to push the injectors higher across the the useable power band, then you could pump more boost, but with this dinky turbo I'm not sure how much power that's gonna actually give you.Power isn't the goal with regards to port actuation - control and transitional smoothness is. Increased power would be a byproduct.

The turbo isn't dinky - remember, I did the compressor flow map comparison and it will produce way more boost than we need and still stay in the most efficient part of the map.
Now, the turbine could probably use a porting (to actually slow spool a bit and reduce exhaust manifold pressure which is probably 2 or 3 times higher than manifold pressure right now) and the WG flapper should probably be enlarged, but the turbo is powerful enough.
People that are having boost drop-off issues are experiencing something else and I'll get to the bottom of it, but it isn't because of the size of the scroll.

I was using (and will be using again at some point) a T4 compressor and it is operating at the absolute bottom of its efficiency range in our application. The main advantage is low RPM surge avoidance, but we have tackled that with the WG signal mod on the TD06-18g that Greddy uses.
If you intended to build a Renesis fuel delivery system that could support 21 PSI or more, than I'd say the Mitsu turbo is too small. But since we are pretty much limited to sub 14 PSI peak, I think it is just right.

The boost fall-off, BTW, may be premature WG opening (because of extreme exhaust pressure), but if people are experiencing it with external WGs, then probably not...

ok Here go some questions; In regards to fix #2 the pressure sensor for the e-manage needs to stay on the manifold right? if this is the case than my EO-1 that leaches this signal to control the wg will be like nothing happened if I move the wg tube. so do I need a second presure sensor for the EO-1? Second, 7 psi is all we can get from just useing the 2nd injectors? it seems that is its max since tim said he had to push some of it off on the prims. So the question is were does this map end? Thanks for the help on this, and MM and tim, you two are the shit. I'm gone on tdy for a month and you two bust loose. I think I should be gone more :)

BTW is this map cool for people running catless?

ok Here go some questions; In regards to fix #2 the pressure sensor for the e-manage needs to stay on the manifold right? if this is the case than my EO-1 that leaches this signal to control the wg will be like nothing happened if I move the wg tube. so do I need a second presure sensor for the EO-1?

No. You still want the E-01 to see manifold pressure. It will decide what to do with the WG signal. This is the beauty of a computerized boost controller. When it sees vacuum in the intake, it will allow the WG signal to continue unabated to the WG can. This means less un-used boost in cruise situations. When the manifold pressure climbs into boost, it will start to modulate the WG signal to hit the target boost based on the set, start and duty cycle settings.


Second, 7 psi is all we can get from just useing the 2nd injectors? it seems that is its max since tim said he had to push some of it off on the prims. So the question is were does this map end?

You can see that Tim's maps start to put the injectors in to a static situation at high RPMs. By 9200 RPM, there really isn't enough fuel left to support more than 5.5 PSI or so on the OEM injector setup.
However, you can set peak boost much higher at lower RPMs and taper to that point. Some people are experiencing this in an uncontrolled manner in that they are having boost fall-off problems.
The idea would be to run out to 8 PSI until 5500 RPM and then taper off to 5.5 PSI by redline.
With the bigger injectors, you can easily boost out to around 10 PSI and start scaling back to 8 PSI by redline.

BTW is this map cool for people running catless?

Yeah, I'm CAT-less and it works great. I'm about to install an MS exhaust which will flow even more and the net effect will be more air at the same pressure level. I'll watch the A/Fs, but I will also have the larger injectors in place by then, so YMMV.

The turbo isn't dinky - remember, I did the compressor flow map comparison and it will produce way more boost than we need and still stay in the most efficient part of the map.


There's a dyno graph posted in the Australian forum from a guy with a custom turbo, I think it was a T3/T4, and his boost dropped off to 7psi at redline as well. So I'm not convinced its a problem with the turbo being too small either, even though every other person I talk to says that's the reason. That would be awesome if we could fix that problem. We could definitely break the 300hp mark.

Does your boost fall off Jeff?

Does your boost fall off Jeff?Actually, on the Greddy it stays the same and with my T3/T4 pressure would climb past my boost target. I blame this on a WG flapper that is too restrictive.

ok sweet than I'm going to lowes to get parts, so have the boost taper down sounds great but how do I do that I look at my profec and say hope its working. all I understand with that thing is when I did my CZ tuning and the gain effects total boost pressure across the board. Also, I'm sure I need to take off the cupler after that right angle peice to sweap out shaving from the tap right? or am I not to worry about it. Thanks!

Also what in the hell do these things look like so I can find em?

damn forgot to say what things: 1/4NPT - 1/4 hose barb fitting. <----- Those

Wow, that's odd. Everyone else has this problem. How much boost are you running?

Well, I just got back from running the new MAP and boost controller settings. First, let me say that I have not yet learned the boost offset settings. They appear to have a much greater effect in the higher gears. I haven't dialed them in yet, so I actually was running nearly 11psi before 6RPM!! So, I didn't run it too far up the RPM range.

That being said, I have no reason to believe that there are going to be any problems at all once I stablize the offset. Here is a shot of the e01. You can plainly see the zone that I tuned rich to handle the also obvious lean spike. The lean spike occurs in the higher RPM for higher gears. This was a 5th gear run, so the spike occurs later in the rich zone. The peak was 12.0 AFR. Like I said, I have to dial-in the offset numbers, but I have every confidence that this will be just straightforward as 9psi was.

I just did fix #3.... I am rich in a lotta ranges including when i am not in boost and in some ranges when i am in boost.

Question: Is the air flow hooked up? I can tinker with the airflow adjustment map to correct the points when i am not in boost, correct? putting a -x% value decreases the signal by a certain voltage = yes/no ?

But other than that fix #3 was great at full throttle.... 12.5 almost all the way! Beautiful...

MM: Still can't get ignition timing to work.... I have re-checked everything... Doesnt seem to want to work. Jumpers 1 and 2 are set to 1-2. And my setting is BA2 ( i think). I even went as far to replace the 1N4003 capacitors i used before with 1N4007's that u use. Do i need to set anything with the e-manage support tool to get it to work other than turning on the ignition map?

Thanks for the help before hand...

I am glad that I have waited to get a turbo kit.

The Greddy seemed like the kit to get, for the HP level I wanted, but with all the problems I wasnt daring to do there.

Thanks for all the work.

Guess I have to start working some overtime to get a kit!

Also, to the 1N4003 and 1N4007 are diode, not capacitors. A typo I am sure, but they function very different. :)

I just did fix #3.... I am rich in a lotta ranges including when i am not in boost and in some ranges when i am in boost.


Thanks for the help before hand...


What RPM ranges are you rich while not in boost? How rich is rich? If its below 6kRPM while not under boost, then its the PCM and not the eManage. The MAP for the severed injectors adds fuel to the non-boosted range only above 6KRPM. If you are rich below 6kRPM, I'd wait a couple of days to see if the PCM will adjust this range.

Glad to hear the boosted operation is smooth. 12.5 feels great, but is a little lean. I'd add a couple of points to richen it up for safety. Now that you have a good starting point, its time to tune it yourself. That's the main advantage of taking control of the P2's yourself. Tuning is much easier, predictable, and the PCM can't do much at all to undo what you do.

-MD

I highly doubt that the pcm will tune it out..... Coz the problem has existed for a while ard 4k for ranges ard -0.2 to about +0.2.....

Fix #2 made this not so evident...

But when i severed the injectors it is now rich from ard 3k at the range at about -0.4 to about +0.3.....

When i say rich, i mean my AEM o2 guage falls all the way to the left and shows no number (< 11) and car runs flooded and exhaust goes boop boop boop until i let off or step on the throttle.... I only get this on constant throttle mostly...

I am still not sure whether the airflow adjustment map works.. If it does i could correct this.... Am waiting for confirmation before i go out and start tuning... This is REALLY annoying as i can't really drive the car properly unless i am full throttle. In the past i drove ard the ranges... but now the range is so wide, it is hard to drive ard...

The ranges in boost i can handle by tuning the fuel mapping..

Thanks again

I'm going to guess you severed the secondaries instead of the P2 injectors.

You mean you are running rich in the transition from vacuum to boost? Thats highly unusuall. Which map did you load? If you are running rich in the transition range, then take out some of the fuel that I added at 0psi. Can you post a log of AFR, boost and RPM?

First, make sure you severed the correct injectors. Blue and green in this post:
http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=888655&postcount=14

Second, exactly how are you wiring the ignition. Describe it exactly. If you have pictures, it would help.

Severing the wrong injectors would seem to me to cause a lean condition below 6kRPM. Above 6kRPM I'm not sure what would happen. Both the PCM and eManage would be trying to fire the P2's for about the same duty cycle for non-boosted operation. I don't know if this would make-up for the lost fuel from the other injector that would be getting no signal if he severed the wrong ones.

I just want to go item by item with him on it. We've been discussing the ignition thing for a while and he hasn't been able to get it to function right.
I might have to fly to Brunei to take a look!

Well, if you go, be careful not to become one of those "ships of the desert" if you know what I mean...

BTW: 10psi feels awesome!

Yeah 11 PSI will be the holy grail. I think for most driving, a consistent 9 PSI is really the the mark by which to measure.
On most of the aftermarket turbo cars I've worked with, anything past 11 PSI is where things start to break peripherally and drivability becomes an issue.
It is really hard to get past 11 PSI with smooth results and nearly doubling the power output of a motor does magical things to the drivetrain which follows it.

I just did fix #3.... I am rich in a lotta ranges including when i am not in boost and in some ranges when i am in boost.
...
Sorry to ask the obvious, but what flash are you on?
Maddog and MM are still on the M-flash. The R-flash is richer.

If you had the Interceptor, there is no need to worry about what flash your on (Shameless plug for mazsport.net)

For the injectors.... I have severed as per your intructions to the first post...

I followed the colours exactly as u described in the first post.... Both wires i severed were on the small connecter and were shrink wrapped.... The problem i have was already happening before i severed the wires, it is just more evident now after i severed the wire.

Like i said it's rich, not lean... I can see what voltage the ecu sees for o2 from the apex'i turbo timer... It read ard 1.04v when it start flooding... Only seems to start once i reach 4k rpm and am at constant throttle... Prolly ard 15%-25% throttle. I'm considering using the airflow adjustment to tune this thing out... It has made me really really annoyed.

As for ignition, I'll describe it in detail tomorrow MM.... It's 2am here and i'm really tired... Do you have msn? perhaps you can pm or e-mail me ur addy....

Maybe not serious enough for u to fly to brunei lol...

Hey MM when you get you new p2's it would be stellar to do a diy :)

Hey MM when you get you new p2's it would be stellar to do a diy :)I promise I'll take pics!

Did i neglect to mention that my car is only about 4 months old and thus i am likely on the R flash...

That's what I am running on - M flash. MazdaManiac is as well.
But, because you have more complete control of the fuel using this strategy, it should be more insensitive to the flash revision than the GReddy way - barring some kind of bizzare changes in the flash revs.

I guess the R-flash has "bizzare changes" compared to M-flash.

^ a little too early for that assesment, I'd say. We haven't even verified the changes he made yet.

KJ238, I want to verify the units that you are using for pressure. Psi or bar?

Bar.... in the e-manage i use kpa same as u guys

Okay then. So its not the transition range after all. Which MAP did you load? Have you started to tweak the values in the sub injector map yet?

actually i havent had much time to fiddle with it.. Chinese New Year.. :)

Loaded ur map... The Tims380SeveredInjectorMap13

...
I can't help but speculate that Mazda intended for this motor to utlimately support closer to 300 HP than 238.
...

I think they were aiming for 277 HP the quasi-legal-limit in Japan. They came up short at 247 HP and then had to retune down further to 238 HP for cat/EPA reasons.

(BTW, I posted acceleration numbers gained with navigational-grade accelerometers when I first got the car that indicated it did (or does) infact do 238HP.)

Back to topic...

-Mr. Wigggles

(BTW, I posted acceleration numbers gained with navigational-grade accelerometers when I first got the car that indicated it did (or does) infact do 238HP.)

I'm curious how you managed to conclude that.

After much toiling and going over all the install of the turbo, I fixed my problem.. Muahahahaha

I am a happy man...


Will write more later as i need to get to work now

:smiley309 :beerchug:

It was a problem with the install? I can't wait to hear about it....

Way to make us wait!! :wallbash:

I've got 6 hours until I'm on a plane to Salt Lake City. I think I shall spend my precious few moments here in Phoenix installing my bigger fuel injectors.

My money is on a boost leak.

Lol sorry... i live in a different time zone remember.. Plus i had meetings till late last nite.. sorry people... just got to work...

Ok the problem was with the incorrect location of the GReddy pressure sensor... I was really ticked off by all my problems being caused by a little thing like that... I'll explain more later..

Boss is on my tail

I am not very car inclined although I am learning more everyday. I think that since day 1 that i bought this car till now I have learned a shitloads about my car. Anyways, how i have been tuning is by reading my boost guage and adding/subtracting fuel according to Air Fuel.

The thing is I neva really used the log. So when i did use the RTD I found the the pressure was constantly at -1. When the boost meter showed -0.2 it was ard +10 in the RTD. THe higher ranges were okay though... This led me to believe the sensor was acting differently from what i thought..... But after researching and checking everything further, i found my problem.

The installer did not remove the VFAD. I read about it on other posts and decided to remove it myself.. Then while rereading the GReddy Turbo Installation Instructions i discovered that the pressure sensor was supposed to be attached to where the VFAD was supposed to be..

It is not entirely the installers fault as the instructions were in Japanese and he just did it by experience. Since then i have rechecked everything... and it is fine...

Just bugs the hell outta me that all my problems was caused simply by the hose being plugged to the wrong location.

Although i have to admit trying to find this problem has helped me understand my car a hell lot more and about how it works... Thanks everyone for all the help they've offered especially MM and MadDog..

Since the e-manage has been adding fuel when i am not underboost, my PCM has been subtracting.. How do i get my PCM to unlearn this and reset... Will reset the KAM and NVRAM do it? or do i have to unplug the battery and leave it overnight?

Now to get my Ignition timing running? MM==> Do u think that the pressure sensor could have made the ignition thingy disfunction?


Really happy to get rid of this problem...

Rx8club Rocks

Wow. Quite a story. Where was the pressure sensor reading from?

First, I would set all the air flow adjustments that you did back to zero.
I can't remember about the KAM and NVRAM. Unplugging the battery and stepping on the breaks to drain any caps will reset the memory just fine. You don't have to wait overnight.

Sounds like you are back in business!

Does anyone agree with me that it is time for someone, Greddy?, to re-due the Turbo install manual? Personally I think it is pathetic :puke: that the end user community has to be the ones to figure out how this kit really needs to be installed, and modified to work properly.

If it was not for die hards like :bowdown: Jeff and :bowdown: Tim and others endlessly going through the trial and error process and figuring this stuff out, we'd all be up a creek with crappy running Turbo's.

Jeff or Tim, or Both, with all your accumulated knowledge and know how with this car and Turbo Kit, I have one request that I and I am sure others here now and in the future would be willing to pay for.... maybe even sell it on Mohdparts.com web site for $75 or something..... a rewritten or supplemental Install manual, complete with detailed photos of everything People are f'ing up on install - hose connections, BOV adjustment tips, Boost controller install info (Profec e-01), harness mods, etc.... and maybe even some real advice and screen shots of tuning tips, etc.... now that would be worth paying for!!!! Maybe even Greddy would buy the rights to it!

Jeff or Tim with your skills with the computers (Nice website by the way) putting together a small .pdf manual with detailed photo's (hoses end to end) along with quality photo's of where exactly modifications are made should be a piece of cake.... The reason I suggest this is that some of us, I hope I am not the only one, read what you post, but do not have enough knowledge/confidence or experience to put the info into use because we are not 100% sure exactly where to drill that hole, or cut that wire. They say Pictures are worth a 1000 words! especially when your not 100% sure what your doing.... I don't know about anyone else, but being 75% sure :Wconfused with a 45K car is a little scary for me!

I hope you take my suggestion and make a kick butt supplemental install manual.... :rock:
I will keep my fingers crossed!!!

Wow. Quite a story. Where was the pressure sensor reading from?

First, I would set all the air flow adjustments that you did back to zero.
I can't remember about the KAM and NVRAM. Unplugging the battery and stepping on the breaks to drain any caps will reset the memory just fine. You don't have to wait overnight.

Sounds like you are back in business!

The pressure for the sensor was from a nipple just before the thottle body. Same as where the wastegate pressure used to be...

Yup i've set all air flow back to 0... I reset the KAM and NVRAM.. Was gonna pull out the battery and step on brakes last night, but i didnt have the proper size tool to open the bolt.. Will do it later...

Yes I am back in business... woot

Does anyone agree with me that it is time for someone, Greddy?, to re-due the Turbo install manual? Personally I think it is pathetic :puke: that the end user community has to be the ones to figure out how this kit really needs to be installed, and modified to work properly.

If it was not for die hards like :bowdown: Jeff and :bowdown: Tim and others endlessly going through the trial and error process and figuring this stuff out, we'd all be up a creek with crappy running Turbo's.

Jeff or Tim, or Both, with all your accumulated knowledge and know how with this car and Turbo Kit, I have one request that I and I am sure others here now and in the future would be willing to pay for.... maybe even sell it on Mohdparts.com web site for $75 or something..... a rewritten or supplemental Install manual, complete with detailed photos of everything People are f'ing up on install - hose connections, BOV adjustment tips, Boost controller install info (Profec e-01), harness mods, etc.... and maybe even some real advice and screen shots of tuning tips, etc.... now that would be worth paying for!!!! Maybe even Greddy would buy the rights to it!

Jeff or Tim with your skills with the computers (Nice website by the way) putting together a small .pdf manual with detailed photo's (hoses end to end) along with quality photo's of where exactly modifications are made should be a piece of cake.... The reason I suggest this is that some of us, I hope I am not the only one, read what you post, but do not have enough knowledge/confidence or experience to put the info into use because we are not 100% sure exactly where to drill that hole, or cut that wire. They say Pictures are worth a 1000 words! especially when your not 100% sure what your doing.... I don't know about anyone else, but being 75% sure :Wconfused with a 45K car is a little scary for me!

I hope you take my suggestion and make a kick buy supplemental install manual.... :rock:
I will keep my fingers crossed!!!


I wouldnt mind rewriting the manual with some help from MM and Maddog for the pictures... The stock install manual isnt too badly written and the pictures aren't too bad.. Just that they left some details out.. And we can insert all the 3 fixes into the manual...

Did my 10,000 kms oil change... Swapped to Mobil1 semi-syn 10/40

Anyways, reset the ecu while i was at it... Works great...

Definately back in business

Nice... I think you're the only one besides me and Jeff that has cut the P2's loose so far.

I'm going to set up the timing controls this week and head to the dyno again (assuming I get the timing working properly). This time, I'll be pushing 10psi and only dropping to 8psi at redline.

Hey guys been busy just started reading forum again. Question, if I were to hookup my WG
to the turbo side like you guys have said, How would I still control boost thru my E0-1.
Since the E0-1 control valve is attached to the com. side to the intake manifold and the NO.
is connected to the WG. Please explain, maybe I'am alittle slow today..

I set myne up with the boost controller com port to the actuator. Boost controller NO port to the fitting installed in the compressor outlet. The intake manifold port gets plugged. The boost controller pressure source also needs to be connected to the fitting at the turbo outlet. Boost gauge and EMS pressure sensor to Throttle body pressure source.

your right, told you I was alittle slow today. I looked over my connections again to make sure...

The boost controller pressure source also needs to be connected to the fitting at the turbo outlet. No. The boost sensor should go to the same source (after the TB) as the boost gauge and other accessories.
Only plumb the solenoid into the signal line between the turbo outlet and the WG can.
Take a look at the E-01 instructions again. The diagrams explain this pretty clearly.

That doesn't make sense to me though. Then the boost controller would still be trying to hold the WG flap shut until Xpsi is established in the manifold instead of at the turbo outlet. It would have the identical effect as if you didn't have a BC and then plumbing the wastegate signal directly at the manifold. The only downside I see to plumbing the pressure source at the turbo outlet is the pressure reading would read lower than it actually is. But you would just disregard that reading and use your boost gauge.

I thought it was controller before TB, and gauge and MAP sensor behind. that way the BC keeps the turbo spooled down and the gauge and MAP know whats actually going into the engine.

That seems how it should be setup to me as well.

I think you are all saying the same thing.


The boost controller pressure source also needs to be connected to the fitting at the turbo outlet.


No. The boost sensor should go to the same source (after the TB) as the boost gauge and other accessories.
Only plumb the solenoid into the signal line between the turbo outlet and the WG can. Take a look at the E-01 instructions again. The diagrams explain this pretty clearly.

It seems to me that Ryan's talking about the signal line - not the sensor.

I do not think they are.But anyway it has been pointed out earlier that if the boost controller solenoid is OPEN,then the WG operator sees turbo discharge pressure.When there is vacuum at the PRESSURE SENSOR,the boost controller solenoid OPENS,therefore it is not necessary to have the boost controller pressure sensor at a different point from the E-Manage pressure sensor or boostgauge.

The boost controller won't interfere with the WG signal until it sees positive manifold pressure.

wouldn't that still spin the turbine faster than necessary? just because there's vaccum in the manifold doesn't mean there isn't already boost in the intake plumbing

I hate to interupt, but...

I just got back from some test runs with the eManage controlling timing. All I can say is 'incredible'. From start to finish, it took all of 2 hours to get the timing harness installed. Its very, very easy. Although, I found the harness to be too short by about 18 inches.

So, on to why I'm all of a sudden wanting to control timing. Well, we were all wondering why the GReddy turbo can't hold boost in the higher RPM. I'm now convinced that the majority of the problem is the wastegate actuator. I cranked down on the adjustment as far as I could, so as to preload the spring as much as possible. With the additional load on the wastegate flapper holding it closed, I can just about hold 7.5-8psi all the way to redline. This is about 3psi more than I could before! The actuator is just too weak to hold the flapper closed as the exhaust gas pressure increases in the higher RPM.

Previously, I had investigated the effects of the tertiary intake runners on the ability to hold boost. I had noticed in my data logs that the boost dropped the moment the APV opened the runners. I incorrectly thought that the cause was the increase in intake volume that the turbo was required to fill. Holding them closed resulted in a loss of power. Now, I realize that the opening of the runners results in a step increase in exhaust gas pressure. This increase in force on the flapper exceeds the preload on the actuator and opens it - resulting in the boost dropping after 6kRPM. I don't know why we didn't think of this before.

So, while I didn't need to control timing before, once I adjusted the actuator I started to get a little detonation in fourth gear above 6kRPM. The AFR was fine - 11.5 and the injector (490cc) duty cycle was only at 78%. Fuel wasn't the issue. It was just time to get my ass in gear and start adjusting timing using the eManage. I used the timing MAP that Jeff posted a while back. Bingo - no more pinging.

So there you have it folks. I have some concrete evidence that the wastegate actuator is to blame for the boost falling off. An external wastegate is the best option, but, you should be able to hold a few more pounds just by adjusting the actuator to max out the spring preload. This increase in pressure forced me to finally address the timing issue - which was exceedingly easy thanks to the work that Jeff did a while ago regarding the need for the diodes on the eManage output. The result is really quite seemless.

Wow. Adjusting timing and completely controlling my injectors with the $289 eManage blue. I'm still less than $5k into it and I'm faster than an STi! I'll head back to the dyno soon for some concrete numbers.

great work!

Didn't someone fit an extrenal wastegate though and have similar boost fade problems?

wouldn't that still spin the turbine faster than necessary? just because there's vaccum in the manifold doesn't mean there isn't already boost in the intake plumbingNo. The WG solenoid would have no effect in that scenario. It would be as if it were plumbed as indicated previously without a boost controller.

For problem #2


I have included a before and after pics. Is this correct location in where the nipple goes?

Yep.

If that's your turbo, and its currently sitting on the garage floor, tighten the WG actuator while you have it out - if you've tuned it for higher boost.

I am aliitle confused with "plumb a line to the wastegate"

my understanding is that you seal the line


If so, does this mean you are suppose to connect the boost controller to the new nipple that was made in the outlet of the turbo?

what you have illustrated is the wastegate actuator. DO NOT SEAL IT OFF! Connect the new nipple to the boost controller solenoid input. Connect the boost controller solenoid output to the wastegate actuator.

I have been looking over the installation manual for my boost controller, I am having trouble locating the "Fuel pressure regulator vaccum line" I checked over the whole rx8 manual and there's no such thing?

That's cause the regulator is in the gas tank...it is a returnless system......pressure is regulated by pump output and controlled by the PCM

So how do I go about connecting the boost controller?

Mike ...it sounds like your may want to consult a qualified mechanic to help you with the install........... it's better to be safe than sorry.

I really want to do the install myself, and besides there are just a few things I still have to figure out, before I am 100% sure in how everything is suppose to be installed!

Heres a schematic of the Turbo layout for the 8,

Have a look if I got it right?

Help!
I just installed the fixes at the beginning of this section (Diode for Air pump, waste gate plumbed to turbo outlet and cutting the injector wires) The car went into limp mode, so I towed it to the dealer and they say the PCM is blown ($1,900 CDN). But now I'm afraid to connect the emanage when the new PCM comes in.

Is there any way to test the emange? Any other thoughts?

You really didn't give us a lot information here.

My first guess is that you left the PCM connected while soldering the air pump diodes in.

You really didn't give us a lot information here.

My first guess is that you left the PCM connected while soldering the air pump diodes in.

There's not a lot more detail. Yes, I soldered the diode in with everything else connected. Obviously I didn't think it would matter. You think that a short or something during that process would fry the PCM? The wires to the dongle were different than described, but they were OK at the harness e.g. the green wire where the diode was to go in, was black from the dongle but connected to a green wire at the harness. I tested this setup and the air pump did not run with the diode in but did run when I took it back out.

Having said that, and more important, do you think the emanage harness will be safe to attach to the new PCM. (assuming that the only mods I made were installing the diode and clipping the two wires which I traced in the RX8 manual and carefully followed MM's direction, and traced from the PCM connector to the GReddy wire block)

EDIT: Just for clarity, I disconnected the wire from the dongle to the harness before working on it. Then held the diode in with jumper wires; tested for operation; then soldered and reassembled.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8041167727&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

beers :beer:

Thanks.
I was searching the web during the afternoon including ebay, but missed this one. I also talked to a rebuilder who listed a unit for the RX8, but when I was talking to him he didn't even have the schematics to rebuild a RX8 ECU. He did give me some info on the numbers on the computer. Mine is N3H6 18881G - he said numbers ending 9 are dealer replacements - for what it's worth.

Heres a schematic of the Turbo layout for the 8,

Have a look if I got it right?

Here's my version showing the basic kit with Greddy part #'s and decriptions.

Ok I´ve been reading this thread over and over trying to get a grip of how to connect the hoses to my Profec B Spec-II boostcontroller.
As far as I see it, there are 3 hoses to connect... com-port, no-port and the hose from the main unit inside the car. Can someone PLEASE explain where to connect these?
Pictures would be great! Thanx alot.

These pictures should be pretty self-explanatory:

Yes they are.... The only "problem" I´m having is to find the point where to connect the hose from the main unit. In the manual it says "connect to the fuel pressure regultator" wich I cannot find. But when looking at the first pic you attached it seems like it connects to the hose where the bov connected. Am I right... The pressure is the one for the e-manage, right? (Just to be 100% clear)
Thanks for your help MM! Highly appreciated!

Yes. Just split the E-Manage pressure sensor signal hose with a vacuum "T". Sens that to the pressure sensor for the boost controller.
Hook the "NO" connection to a fitting as indicated in the fixes at the top of the thread.

LOVELY!!! Maybe I´m not as stupid as I thought...:) Thanks for helping out.
...and it really sucks being on this side of the atlantic when it comes to experties on 8´s. :(

Just for anyone who is interested,my car is now on the road with aGreddy kit,severed P2 injectors,Mad Dogs map #13 and the R flash.It idles well,runs well,transitions well to boost.The only thing I do not like is some backfire in the exhaust on the overrun.I am only boosting to 32kpa(say 5psi) but the acceleration is explosive by comparison.Now for a period of tuning and boost increase.

Ps I should say thanks to Mad Dog and Benny at Greddy who helped wth the Greddy Support Tool.

Wow. You have the R flash?

I thought that severing the P2's might help those with the R flash, but I think you might be the first to try it. Glad to hear initial results are promising. Keep us posted!

-MD

NOW this is getting interesting... I have te R flash as well and have had some smaller issues running it. Next visit to the garage I´ll definately cut off those wires! But of all the maps that has been posted, wich one is Mad Dogs #13? :)

By the way, I replaced the stock cat with the SR Motorsports cat, and it sounds freaking awesome!

It is post#97 on this thread.For comparison I am running the factory cat with the new Mazdaspeed cat-back.For those who suffer "drone' with the new Mazdaspeed catback,it can be solved by adding a turbo!

Wow I'm really surprised it works so well with the R flash. I thought Benny had said that required some kind of hardware change. I'm even more surprised that you're able to use the same map that was setup for the M flash. What are your AFR's?

I have not got that far yet.I spent my time trying to set up my home made cold air intake where the K&N filter can be cleaned without removing the front bumper---unfortunately it does not idle worth a damn so I have reverted to Airinx while I think about it somemore.
The weather up here is not suitable for testing yet,when I was out Friday it was about 35F and my Dunlops are dodgy under those conditions.
W hat I can say is it idles absolutely flat at 820rpm,lambda is 0.999+/-0.005,(that Mazda ecu is great!),my cruise control still works,drivability is very good,transition to boost is transparent(you need the gauge),I am developing significant boost at 2200rpm due probably to my recycle valve set up and then it is virtually seamless up to 7500rpm.My LTFT and STFT have not changed and are at 0%.
It is way faster than either of my TIIs were acceleration wise and drivability is about the same so far.
I will post lambda values when I do some real testing.

nice...

hmm perhaps it is time to get off the fence :)

Wow. You have the R flash?

I thought that severing the P2's might help those with the R flash, but I think you might be the first to try it. Glad to hear initial results are promising. Keep us posted!

-MD
R-flash shouldn't make much of a difference using the MadDog option.
The P2s are independant and the secondaries can't do much to get around that.

Just one other thought---I am running with a restriction orifice in the signal hose to the Greddy pressure sensor.From my TII days this device was essential for smooth operation--I just used a TII one I had in my bit box.

Just one other thought---I am running with a restriction orifice in the signal hose to the Greddy pressure sensor.From my TII days this device was essential for smooth operation--I just used a TII one I had in my bit box.

Do you know the size of the restrictor you're - I'm using .040" (#60 drill) on both the line to the GReddy sensor and the actuator.

Well I did not actually measure it ,but it is supposed to be 0.5mm,say roughly 0.020 inches.I only use one sensor for the e-manage and the e-01 boost controller.The boost display on the e-01 is very stable.

Do you know the size of the restrictor you're - I'm using .040" (#60 drill) on both the line to the GReddy sensor and the actuator.
What the hell are you guys talking about? :Eyecrazy: And what does this TII do? I did a search on Google and I’m more confused than before. Not that it takes much to confuse me.

The TII is a second generation RX-7.
The restrictor that is being discussed causes the vacuum/pressure signal from the manifold to the E-Manage and/or boost controller to be smoother and more predictable by reducing its volume.

The TII is a second generation RX-7.
The restrictor that is being discussed causes the vacuum/pressure signal from the manifold to the E-Manage and/or boost controller to be smoother and more predictable by reducing its volume.
Cool. Were do I get one? :hahano:
Edit:
Did a massive search (exaggerating) and I learned that its also called a pill and an orifice, I still cant find a part # and exactly were this thing is installed and how does it work? Sorry for all the questions but I’m an information fiend.
Edit:

Just another fix - I'll post it elsewhere as well:

Switch the first rotary switch inside the E-Manage from "B" to "8" and all four ignition circuits become active.
This means, you can wire the ignition harness and control timing on the leading AND trailing plugs.
I don't know why I didn't try this sooner.

This doesn't seem to affect any other aspects of the E-Manage operation and the RPM is still correct.

Just another fix - I'll post it elsewhere as well:

Switch the first rotary switch inside the E-Manage from "B" to "8" and all four ignition circuits become active.
This means, you can wire the ignition harness and control timing on the leading AND trailing plugs.
I don't know why I didn't try this sooner.

This doesn't seem to affect any other aspects of the E-Manage operation and the RPM is still correct.

..and in a few months we have made the emanage piggyback a standalone unit. :ylsuper: Great fix Maniac! As soon as the roads are clreared of all snow, dirt and shit I´ll have plenty of emanage-stuff to do.

I finally did fix #2 a little less than a week ago, and am very happy with the results. Thanks guys!

Just another fix - I'll post it elsewhere as well:

Switch the first rotary switch inside the E-Manage from "B" to "8" and all four ignition circuits become active.
This means, you can wire the ignition harness and control timing on the leading AND trailing plugs.
I don't know why I didn't try this sooner.

This doesn't seem to affect any other aspects of the E-Manage operation and the RPM is still correct.


I'm not up on the extreme deatils of the timing of the sparks and the rotor's position during those events, but here's a question:

If we start to retard the firing of the trailing plug, how much headroom do we have before we start to preignite the next chamber as it rotates over the trailing plug? I'd just like to have some idea before I start to fiddle with retarding trailing plugs.

It would be so retarded that it would be outside the range of the E-Manage's adjustability.
Since you are only concerned with spark under power, remember that the Renesis is already running 20° to 36° of advance under load (40° at throttle lift!). This means you couldn't even get the trailing to fire a TDC with the ±20° range of the E-Manage.
You will never want more than 16° of retard, anyway.

The main advantage of my little discovery is that the timing split is retained and we don't have to wory about the trailing causing knock (which was unlikely to begin with).

It would be so retarded ....

Would you go so far as to say sofa king wee tah did?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry. Couldn't resist when I read your phrasing... haha

:ylsuper:

How much spilt is there at load? Is it possible that by retarding only the leading plugs that the trailing could fire in advance of the leading?

I guess it is possible. RotaryGod would have a better idea of how that works.
I imagine that at some times, there might not be any split, which means retarding the leading might yield a negative split.
That would be bad, mmm-K.

^I've been wondering about that. By wee-tahding the leading plugs so that they fire after the trailing plugs, the effect would still be wee-tah-did ignition, but not by as much as you would be specifying with the emanage, since the amount of wee-tahd would be capped by when the PCM fired the trailing plugs.

Since its so easy to do, and apparently I can't wee-tahd the trailing plugs so much that they ignite the next chamber, I'll just rig it up when I get back to NM on Sunday.

BTW: I got my custom 3" exhaust made and installed while I was away. I'll be tuning this week and dynoing next weekend! WOO!

I'm Sofa King Pea Said Off. I'm going away for work and won't be here in Phoenix for 10 days.
I was hoping to spend some time tuning as well.

Time to ditch your CAT, too.

MadDog, first i would like to say thanks for doing all this work as some People do not understand the risk you were taking doing all this testing.

I am an owner of a very highly modded 3rd gen RX-7 and found that running high boost I needed some aftermarket ignition parts like amps and coils. I am wondering what plugs you are using right now with your map?

Again thanks for saving us a ton of money and time making this a very cost effective and safe kit. In the RX-7 community it is like pulling teeth to get help with maps. I will be installing a Greddy kit and am very interested with timing control.

Thanks again

Steve

Also, have you guys upgraded your cooling system yet and if so were there any fitment issues with your after market rads(Fluidyne,Koyo)?

Thanks

No problem. I do what I can.

I'm using the Denso Iridium plugs one step colder. I haven't yet added an aftermarket radiator. But, I did add a Fluidyne oil cooler and switch to Royal Purple. I did a DYI thread about it. That cooler adds about 1.25 qts as I recall.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8041167727&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

beers :beer:



good luck getting a Mazda Tech to reprogram a used computer from a different car ...

good luck getting a Mazda Tech to reprogram a used computer from a different car ...

yea,
a im waiting for someone to play that one out.

beers :beer:

yea,
a im waiting for someone to play that one out.

beers :beer:
Actually when I had my new unit installed, I talked with the mechanic and I told him I was going to get my old one repaired or find a used unit. He said: just bring it in, we'll install it, hook up the emanage and check it all out, it'll only cost you an hour."
I haven't been able to come up with the second unit yet, but I'm confident the the dealer will work on it when I do.

So, on to why I'm all of a sudden wanting to control timing. Well, we were all wondering why the GReddy turbo can't hold boost in the higher RPM. I'm now convinced that the majority of the problem is the wastegate actuator. I cranked down on the adjustment as far as I could, so as to preload the spring as much as possible. With the additional load on the wastegate flapper holding it closed, I can just about hold 7.5-8psi all the way to redline. This is about 3psi more than I could before! The actuator is just too weak to hold the flapper closed as the exhaust gas pressure increases in the higher RPM.


Now, I realize that the opening of the runners results in a step increase in exhaust gas pressure. This increase in force on the flapper exceeds the preload on the actuator and opens it - resulting in the boost dropping after 6kRPM. I don't know why we didn't think of this before.

So, while I didn't need to control timing before, once I adjusted the actuator I started to get a little detonation in fourth gear above 6kRPM. The AFR was fine - 11.5 and the injector (490cc) duty cycle was only at 78%. Fuel wasn't the issue. It was just time to get my ass in gear and start adjusting timing using the eManage. I used the timing MAP that Jeff posted a while back. Bingo - no more pinging.

So there you have it folks. I have some concrete evidence that the wastegate actuator is to blame for the boost falling off. An external wastegate is the best option, but, you should be able to hold a few more pounds just by adjusting the actuator to max out the spring preload.

Wow. Adjusting timing and completely controlling my injectors with the $289 eManage blue. I'm still less than $5k into it and I'm faster than an STi! I'll head back to the dyno soon for some concrete numbers.

Hey, I just joined the site today as I've been researching the RX-8 as being my next car. Anyway, I thought I had some information that could possibly help.

The WRX guys have also tried to tighten down the wastegate like you have, one problem that arose was the wastegate would not fully open after this adjustment. Causing boost creep at higher rpms.

So instead, they are installing helper springs to keep the wastegate closed but still allow the full movement of the wastegate. Its cheap and seems to work. Here is a link to a write up. *Warning* This MAY change the wastegate open psi by alittle bit.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589293

I cannot find any 1n4007 Diodes at any local stores..

will a 1n4005 work?

Yes. Tecnically, LEDs will work. However, they don't like staying at 200°F for too long....

I cannot find any 1n4007 Diodes at any local stores..

will a 1n4005 work?
The 1N4005 has very similar properties. take a look here:

http://www.futurlec.com/Diodes/1N4007.shtml

There is a pdf that compares them. I'd send you the 15 or so extra ones I got in the package but the postage is worth more than the parts.

Radioshack has them in the back of the store, you can use pretty much any of the series 1N4001, 1N4002, 1N4003, 1N4004, 1N4005, 1N4006 or 1N4007. They range from 50v to 1000v, all at 1.0 amp. You'll never come close to the voltages that they're rated for in the car unless your RX-8 gets struck by lightning. I'm using the 1N4005 because that's what Radioshack had in stock, 600v at 1.0amp. It came in a pack of two for $2.59, I tossed the other one.

Just refer to TurboX8's link above for the specs. In the very unlikely event that any of these fail, they pop like fuses with no harm, just go up one in this diode series to replace. Many electronic device use diodes as a secondary fuse on the circuit board.

this is redundant, but i must say after i got the fix #2, all i can say is WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!

i don't know why i didn't do it sooner. powerband is alot more predictable, and just the overall driveability improved tremendously. time to start increasing the boost :mdrmed:

by the way, my mechanic opened up the plastic flap in the right front wheel well cinderliner & drilled the hole in the exposed pipe there. is this an acceptable location?

FYI everyone install your fixes, for some reason my air compressor brunt up prior to installing the fix.

Not that its a huge problem but i do get CEL's once every 500 miles

Has anyone posted pics of these, so called, severed injection wires?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76821

Has anyone posted pics of these, so called, severed injection wires?
I guess you have, now! Though, that isn't how mine look, but that is a different story...

well... couple weeks later, my rx8's back to its old self again. i think pcm retuned itself. :wallbash:
Sorry to hear that. Not sure how that is possible.
Mine just keeps getting smoother and smoother.

A couple of questions before I go ahead and do this....>

For fix number 2 > Any pics on this? Exactly what hose do I remove from where? and what do I do with the "opening" that is left where the hose was located? :) *confused*

For fix number 3 > When cutting off the primary 2 injectors, what purpose do they do? The tertiary intake port will still open at its specific rpm, but will the p2 injectors still deliver fuel there?

The reason I´m asking is that I´m planning on upgrading to a bigger turbo in the future, wich will most likely requre more fuel. Wouldn´t the p2 injectors come in handy then? If cutting them off we are left with 4 functional fuel injectors and not 6. Please correct me if I´m wrong here.

You still use the P2's...the e-manage just controls them 100% instead of piggybacking them and letting the stock ECU use them as well. This gives better control of the fueling and less fuel trim problems

Has anyone posted pics of these, so called, severed injection wires?


This is what mine look like. I checked this against the wiring diagram in the manual. This view is looking toward the PCM.

Important note: I used shrink tube to seal both pairs of wires, but there is no connection inside the shrink tube.

any chance someone can post Fix #4 map on here i can't seem to get it off his website? Thanks

^^ Why not ? Just PM or e-mail me for the password.

Does fix #2 require a BC? I know im dumb. Please humor me, im new

I cant download any of the MAPs for some reason. My comp is telling me it dosent recognize the file type..... is this because i dont currentlly have the e-manage support tool?

Uh, yes. You need the Support Tool to install the maps.
You can download them, just right-click and save-as.

i know i need them to put them in the e manage, but i cant save em on this comp for some reason...

I finally have my harness reconnected. I actually bought a used ecu/pcm and connected to that first, to make sure it would work. I'm now getting an O2 CEL which is from the emange or harness. I have the diode installed on the O2 dongle. Any suggestions?

I've been driving for a few months without the emanage, constantly watching the vacuum-boost guage to stay below 0psi. I've made a few observations:
1. If I keep the AFR close to 14.5, and moderate acceleration, mileage increased from ~300km to ~400km. This is at ~123kph on the highway which is at least 80% of my driving.
2. The car runs smoothly through the entire rpm range; no stalls no stumbles - just like stock. I did modify the turbo actuator signal line to pick up just after the turbo and I believe this was a significant factor. (MM's fix #2)

Now I have the emanage connected, these are my observations running below 0psi:
1. There is no transition from on the throttle and off - it seems that when I ease off the throttle it goes to zero throttle. Very harsh to drive.
2. Idle is now at 1500rpm with AFR ~12.5 as opposed to 900rpm with AFR ~14.4.
3. Car stalls randomly at lights or stops.

So, notwithstanding that the emanage is not supposed to have any effect below 0psi, on my car it is definitely messing things up. You may recall that when I tried maps from both MM & Maddog my car wouldn't idle, it's still true - I just tried the map for the severed injector wires with the same result. I'm going to try copying the settings to a map that lets my car idle to see if that works. Maybe I don't have some of the other settings correct?

Have you verified that all of your plugs are firing with the E-Manage installed?
I'd bet that they are not.

Have you verified that all of your plugs are firing with the E-Manage installed?
I'd bet that they are not.

Much happier today. I did check that all the coils were firing (but didn't pull the plugs) What really worked though was setting the rotary switches back to A01. The idle returned and the harsh throttle drop off was gone AND the traction control lights went out. (I hadn't mentioned this because I thought there was no relationship to the emanage)

Next I copied the fuel maps from the severed wires map onto a map that I had used before. That helped, but it was running lean under boost and the CEL remained. The next night I copied back the Additional Injection Map from my old file onto the current map. Now the CEL is gone and I'm running rich under boost, as would be expected. Otherwise it's running well and "feels" strong.

I'll start backing out the Add. Inj. map next. (and schedule a session at the local dyno)

You have the ignition harness hooked up? If you have the first rotary switch set to "A", one of the trailing plugs wont fire ("A" only has 3 ignition circuits).
Furthermore, "01" is for a Nissan AFM. "A2" is the setting for the SE3P.

You have the ignition harness hooked up? If you have the first rotary switch set to "A", one of the trailing plugs wont fire ("A" only has 3 ignition circuits).
Furthermore, "01" is for a Nissan AFM. "A2" is the setting for the SE3P.

No, I don't have the ignition harness.

A01 is the way it came, so I was just trying to get back to a base line. I'll check the plugs to see if one has not been firing. I'm betting it's the Front Trailing plug.

I did find this info from http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/EmanageFAQ.txt dated Dec-03:

First switch:
A - RX-7 13B-REW
B - RX-7 13B or 13BT
C - RX-7 20B-REW

2nd & 3rd
Mazda Hotwire
A0 MZ_HW-1
A1 MZ_HW-2 As you said, 01 is listed as Nissan Hotwire.

I had been using BA1, before I switched back to A01. From your posts, then, I should use BA2? I thought this was for when you were controlling the ignition from the emanage.

As always, Thanks for your input.

Well, if you are not controlling the ignition and you are not adjusting the airflow meter map, then these settings are meaningless to your setup.

On my system, I do both so it is important that the switch settings are apropriate.
In fact, I use 8A2. This allows for all 4 coils to be controlled and the proper AFM response.

Wheres the best place to splice into the o2 sensor for an A/F gauge?

^^ Don't.

The narrow band is useless for tuning and the built-in wide band can't be "spliced" into.

Use a CAN scanning software to read the OEM WBO2S or get and aftermarket one like the Innovate stuff. (I use the LC-1).

Do you have to do the fixes if you buy the new upgrade kit?

Didn't I answer that question for you already?

Of course I did:

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1459168&postcount=35

Yes, Thank you! I figured I would would get an answer on one of them :D: You da man!

If i understand well , here is what i need to do to fix the problems on my rx8 with greddy turbo kit ; relocate boost signal at compressor housing + reset boost controller .... cut 2 wires on e-manage harness (do i need to reload a fuel map in the e-manage , and where can i find this map and isent there a password in the e-manage??) .... thank for all the info , i've learned more here than with greddy !!! :beerchug:

BTW , i have never had any problems with the pump runing for long periods of time .... also tried the car on a dynapak dyno , got 202 hp + 179 tq .... took off the cat and got 267hp .... but boost was creeping a 9psi over 5000 rpm .... i'll try to post the dyno sheets this afternoon if this interest someone , i've got afr , boost and power ... with 3 diferent setting (stock cats stock boost,metal cat stock boost + with greddy profec BC , and with no cat at all )

Just relocated wastegate actuator and tried the car , alot better !!!!!!!!!

Since things are running so good at 8.5-9 psi right now, I'm about to start up-ing the boost. I've extrapolated the current MAP to 10psi. I used the same method as I did last time to extrapolate to higher boost levels: fit a linear function to the highest 4 pressures in a given RPM column and evaluate the fitted line at the new pressures. It worked great going from 7.5psi to 9 psi. The resulting values on needed fine tuning by a couple of percentage points. Tuning seems to be pretty linear on the Renesis.

You can see that the bottom left cell in the 10psi MAP pushes the 490cc injectors to 100% duty cycle. I started looking for where the 490cc injectors really start to peter out. Paying attention only to the cells that actually get used in WOT driving, I could boost to about 12psi before running out of capacity - I think. For now, I'm thrilled to be on the brink of double-digit boost! :rock: 10psi is as high as I want to go for now. If only I had a T4 at these boost levels....

One more thing - if it weren't for the ridges in the MAP around those lean spikes, there would be much more available capacity from the 490cc injectors. Someone needs to figure out how to get rid of those by controlling the port timing. I haven't tested the always-open state. That might be the ticket.

Ok, I've heard so many changes to the stock GReddy kit... What I've seen that is a MUST is fuel injectors, fuel pump (fuel reg & gauge included) boost controller and OF COURSE re-tunning.... Can the eManage (blue) handle all these tunings or do I need to change the eManage to something else? (ex. Int-X or Microtech) Also, what's the highest injectors (I've seen 550cc, is this the highest you can tune in idle and not get funny feelings taking off?) I can use and re-tune with the eManage? (I have a GReddy kit which came with eManage (blue) on my RX8 and wanted to boost more than 5psi)

If you want > 5 psi, I think you should get a better fuel management system.

The emanage ultimate and interceptor-x appear to be good choices. I have an ultimate upgrade kit for sale in the parts forum for a decent price.

If you want > 5 psi, I think you should get a better fuel management system.

The emanage ultimate and interceptor-x appear to be good choices. I have an ultimate upgrade kit for sale in the parts forum for a decent price.
I was looking to go higher boost, not stock 5psi...

yes, thus the >

:)