Old subject I know but all the recent reviews are very positive and great to read but they all mention torque as a problem (and really the only one).

From reading other threads I am under the impression that it is only a problem if the engine is not reved ie if treated as a normal engine with gear changed below 3000 whereby the rotary needs gear changes way above 3000, no problem if one is used to playing with the gears at higher revs especially as it goes up to 9000 without the strain and noise associated with a normal engine.

Is there anyway able to sort this out? The America threads are not as plentiful as I had hoped from car owners and nobody has really tackled this subject properly.

Any ideas?

rael

The car has more torque than my 1.8 focus so I dont see what the problem is.

I'm buying it for an involving drive w/high revs and gear changes, I dont mind 'working' for performance, I'm sure the car will pull ok in higher gears for normal driving - but you may need a few more revs than a piston engine.

Well on the US car I drove (for a good 30 minutes) here was my impression of the engines power delivery:

True that below 3000 RPM the torque is weak. But that is in comparison to the power at higher RPMs and to other large engine sportscar.

Below 3000 RPM the car pulls and feels much like a peppy, small displacement 4 cylinder like that you would find from Alfas or the Germans. Not tire burning, but enough to go about your daily business.

The one characteristic that mitigates the low end torque though is throttle response and smoothness of delivery. There is no lag from pedal movement to delivery and the delivery is smooth and pleasant. So, it actually feels much better than it actually goes.

It makes it easy to drive in traffic.

From about 3000 - 6000 the torque is good, but more importantly absolutely flat. The car pulls in a linear and smooth as glass manner. Won't be as fast as TVR or something. But easily keeps up with the best 6 cylinder performance cars like the BMW 330i, Nissan Skyline and even a Z4 3.0i and Boxster. Again the throttle response is instant.

Very good (surprisingly good) mid-range.


Didn't dwell into the high RPM range much, since the car was the personal car of a dealer employee and only had 95 miles on the odometer. It felt strong, but maybe in retrospect not as strong as it should have been given the published stats.

I know its a completely different engine, but I drove the S2000 recently which has similar 'lack' of torque and I found it surprisingly easy to drive and it didnt bother me at all.

After all the RX8 has as much torque as a 320i, and more than an IS200, or 2.0 X-Type

I just dont think you can expect to cruise around in a high gear at low rpm, and expect the car to take off without dropping down a cog or two.

I am more than happy to do this as the car will be fine to tootle around in as per a normal 4 cylinder family car, and when you want to drive fast it just requires use of the gearbox, which should be fun.

The only time I can see it being a problem (as I have the same issue in my STi with the turbo), is that you may get caught out ion certain occasions, as you cant just put your foot down and expect an instant response.

I have a Prelude VTEC which has about the same peak torque as the RX-8. For the first few months after I got it I sometimes felt a bit frustrated with the lack of low-end response - not that it was slow, just that it didn't feel like the performance car it was supposed to be.

I don't have any problem with it now, because I have adjusted my driving style. You have to anticipate a little more and be ready with the downchanges, but it soon becomes second nature. And the payoff when you get to really pile on the revs and enjoy the top end is well worth it. I find torquey cars rather dull to drive now.

Anyway, the torque curve of the 8 is much flatter than my Prelude so it should be even less of an issue.

Just to give my usual reply....

I am not in the slightest bit concerned at this.
The RX8 has more torque than my current car (Integra typeR) and similar performance.
Also , I have driven a rotary before , and *love* the power delivery.

Basically , as already said , it will drive just like any other moderate engine car (albeit a bit smoother).
What is does mean is that when you want it to *really* go , you have to be prepared to nail it.
When you are not used to it , it may seem odd. Certainly those of you used to turbos or large capacities may need to adjust a little but the overall reward is very sweet.
Personally , I would choose my 9,000rpm integra over a turbo6000rpm car anyday. It is just such a drivers experience.

The way rael is talking in this thread , it sounds as if you cannot drive this car at low revs. That simply is not the case. When the car is cold you drive it at less than 3,000rpm just like you would any other car , and you will notice no difference.

There really is no torque problem with this engine. There is a perception problem is all , and the cars being compared to it take a very different approach to power (i.e. large capacities).
Those who currently drive VTECs will know what to expect , just smoother. Anyone who is concerned should get themselves a drive in an S2000. This character of this engine is probably the closest you will find. Take it to 9,000rpm , hear the noise and then tell me you are worried about lack of torque. :)

The rotary remains my key reason for having the RX8. It upsets me that perception here sometimes goes towards "I love the RX despite the rotary" instead of "I love the RX because of the rotary". :(

Morgan.

EXactly

just keep the thing at high revs and in lower gears for more torque.

0-60 in 1st anyone? :D

For those of you who have had no experience with rotaries, or even with the small VTEC engines, you have to understand one thing: these engines have lesser torque than the american engines, simply because they have smaller displacement. However, since they are FAR better engines, they can -and should- be revved much higher, and that is where they start to shine (and produce HP and torque).

You cannot treat a rotary, a 1.6lt VTEC, and a 3.5lt american engine in the same way. Sure, the american "dinosaur" has torque down low, but after 6K rpm, its finished. However, this is exactly where the wankel or the VTEC engine start to really produce power. Its a different mentality.....

And if you want to move fast, you cannt be lazy :p Thats why americans are sooooooooo "stupid" drivers, and getting killed driving at 55mph :D

The point is, if you want a high revving engine you can't have high torque (nor do you need it).

Imagine if the 8 had 50% more torque (220 lbft) and still revved to 9000 rpm. Power is torque x revs, so it would now produce 350 hp. And people would still complain that it didn't produce much torque for a 350 hp car (well Autocar would anyway...).

However this is not a problem because the quoted torque figure is measured at the crankshaft. What drives the car is torque at the wheels and this also depends on the gearing, and a high revving car would have a correspondingly higher final drive ratio.

Strictly speaking, if you are happy with the power, all that should matter about the torque curve is it's flatness (the flatter the better), not it's absolute value.

These replies are a joy to read and how I understand the torque issue to be. I am more than happy to rev and play with the stick if need bet

But its not me writing these articles suggesting it has no torque!

rael.

JUST ONE SIMPLE QUESTION -

WHY IS EVERY CAR MAG REVIEWER CONCERNED?? I MUST ASSUME THEY DON'T KNOW DIDDLY!!

ANYWAY, I DON'T CARE:p

Cheers
Oilman

Originally posted by oilman
JUST ONE SIMPLE QUESTION -

WHY IS EVERY CAR MAG REVIEWER CONCERNED?? I MUST ASSUME THEY DON'T KNOW DIDDLY!!

ANYWAY, I DON'T CARE:p

Cheers
Oilman

Its because, when looking at the figures, you cannt help but notice that, when in the frame of comparison between 350Z and RX8, although the cars "aim" for the same demographics group, they have a -rather- small difference in max HP, but a *huge* difference in max torque. And that is to be noted by the reviewer, even if he knows/thinks/supposes that this will not play a major role in the performance of each car ;)

And again, a car that produces its max figures way up in the RPM range (like VTECs and rotaries, even turbo ones), cannot be compared to an american dinosaur or generally to cars with huge engines, simply because its like comparing apples to oranges. Only thing connecting those two is -probably- the price.

And another fact is, a car that needs to be revved is not as "lazy" as a huge 3,5lt or 5lt pushrod, which has enough torque to pull a tractor at 1500rpms......

BHP makes a car fast, TORQUE makes a car quick. The 8 wiil be quick enough for me. I'm comparing it to my previous cars;

Toyota Corolla GT Coupe - Brilliant
Nissan 200SX - Nice but twitchy
Vauxhall Carlton 3000 24V GSi - Torque monster.

AnilS.

Rael most drivers will never be good enough to explore the rx8 limits ,the torque is not an issue , you have to know how to drive and from what i read at times i think the rx8 is to much of a car for some of our forum members you can drive this car very much as an everyday drive or you can give it heaps ,but you must know how and when to change gears and be able to maxzimize the cars potential and for the average driver this seems to be beyond their abilities the torque is not the problem its the driver.

Originally posted by Lock & Load
Rael most drivers will never be good enough to explore the rx8 limits ,the torque is not an issue , you have to know how to drive and from what i read at times i think the rx8 is to much of a car for some of our forum members you can drive this car very much as an everyday drive or you can give it heaps ,but you must know how and when to change gears and be able to maxzimize the cars potential and for the average driver this seems to be beyond their abilities the torque is not the problem its the driver.

Well, its not actually "the driver", its the general assumptions that most of the drivers out there make about car engines.

For example, for someone who hasnt got the guts or doesnt even know that he can go over 6K RPMs in a S2K or in a RX8, those two cars will seem like dogs, and he'll go "where the hell are those 240HP ?" ;)

When most cars today have a redline starting at 5K, and cut-off at 6,5-7K (even if that), the 8K redline, and the 9,5-10K fuel cut-offs of the S2K and the RX8 seem absolutely out-of-this world. So, its not a problem of the driver per se, its just that most of you are accustomed to such ideas, and the completely different (like VTECs and Rotaries) need A LOT of getting used to ;)

Ace you have a point but why buy a car with 9000rpm if you are to scared or not prepared to use its full rev range , some of the drivers who have never had a rotary before seem to be confused about the driving style needed to maxzimise the rx8s potential .

Don't understand the problem... all my cars see the rev limiter at least once a day. Isn't that the same for everybody??

:confused: :p ;)


-andy-

I intend to play with the gears at high revs having been used to that in my existing car. In fact, I understand that it will be easier to redline the 8 than in a normal car as the engine revs so freely.

Should go over 9300 and petrol cuts out what actually happens besides the revs falling. ie can one have the gas flat down at 9300 and it cuts out and then cuts back in again under 8500, revs to 9300 and cuts out again. Can this off/ on happen quickly and without harm?

rael

Originally posted by sixspeed
Don't understand the problem... all my cars see the rev limiter at least once a day. Isn't that the same for everybody??

:confused: :p ;)


-andy-
I was going to post the same thing.

Aren't rev limiters there to bounce off all the time.:D

On the discussion of torque, I've just had my Audi Tdi 1.9 QS remapped by AMD with a good torque figure result of 295 ft/lbs.

So I know driving the diesel will be a completely different drive to the RX8, so it will depend on my frame of mind when I get up in the morning.:)

Originally posted by rael
I intend to play with the gears at high revs having been used to that in my existing car. In fact, I understand that it will be easier to redline the 8 than in a normal car as the engine revs so freely.

Should go over 9300 and petrol cuts out what actually happens besides the revs falling. ie can one have the gas flat down at 9300 and it cuts out and then cuts back in again under 8500, revs to 9300 and cuts out again. Can this off/ on happen quickly and without harm?

rael

But you all dont understand what I wanted to say: its very easy for someone who has experience, or for someone who WANTS to "play" with such engines to discover their RPM limit ;), but its a totally different story for those who ARE USED to cars with 6K cut-offs............Catch my drift ?

And rael, this on/off/on/.... thing, sure it can happen, but are you willing to pay for a rebuilt shortly thereafter ? ;)

No, don't really catch your drift. My car redlines at 6k so I will rev up to that point in many cases and then change up. I am used to reving to the edge of the redline not a number.

In the 8 I can go up to 9k, probably with less noise and stress and therefore it will be easier to get there, hence the alarm.

rael

I'm still not sure of the point though. Don't people look at their rev-counters then? Surely the fact that the "redline" isn't until 9000rpm mean that people will push on until or near that point?

If someone is going to hit 6000rpm in a "normal" car, then they're surely the sort of person that does look at what rev's they're doing, so surely they'd just see the dial still has more to go and keep going.

Maybe it's my mentality, or the way I drive, but I don't see how if a rev limit is there, clear to see, that people who would use all the rev range of a "normal" car will not do the same in the RX8?


-andy-

Agreed 6speed. It may in fact be easier to get here.

rael

Originally posted by sixspeed
Don't understand the problem... all my cars see the rev limiter at least once a day. Isn't that the same for everybody??

:confused: :p ;)


-andy-

I have to test mine every day to check that the red light still comes on at 7000rpm :D

I look at my rev counter a lot more than the speedo as well. You usually get used to the sound and feel of the engine as well, so you know when to change up anyway. Not sure if this will be the same in the rotart because of the smoothness?

Yes, it'll be the same.
Dont panic - give the car to most people and they really wont be able to tell the difference.

Sure it does drive differently (read better :) ) than 'conventional' engines , but it is no big deal.

My fond hope is that you will all come to love the rotary.
I have wanted to get back to one ever since I lost my last one... That must say something !

As one of the few with rotary engine experience we are going to trust you on this as well as your arguement for torque not being a problem although to me it seems either torque or MPG will be a the downside.

rael.

MPG - Yep , they are thirsty.
That is the only downside of rotary combustion. :(

Still , the Yank figures are promising -
My old RX7 used to struggle to get 20mpg , and looking at americans , it looks like the RX8 will do 25-28 on the sort of journeys I do these days (all M1).

rael - you will learn to love it , I am pretty sure.
You seem to have had some interesting motors , and this is another one to experience. If it does not work out , you can always move back of forced-induction and big torque.

Does'nt relaxed, lazy, accessible torque mean better MPG ? I think so, but I'm not really buying the 8 for its MPG, I'm buying it so I can have fun and still have modocome of practicality.

AnilS.

Originally posted by sixspeed
I'm still not sure of the point though. Don't people look at their rev-counters then? Surely the fact that the "redline" isn't until 9000rpm mean that people will push on until or near that point?

If someone is going to hit 6000rpm in a "normal" car, then they're surely the sort of person that does look at what rev's they're doing, so surely they'd just seem the dial still has more to go and keep going.

Maybe it's my mentality, or the way I drive, but I don't see how if a rev limit is there, clear to see, that people who would use all the rev range of a "normal" car will not do the same in the RX8?


-andy-

I'm just quotting you, because I'm too lazy to quote every answer I got to my post......

Anyway, what you are NOT getting, and dont understand, is that most people couldnt care less where the fuel cut-off is, or where is the redline, and they probably wont ever hear the redline buzzer. Most of the people who will be interested in the RX8 (mostly in US), will expect the car to pull strongly in the same RPMs that they are used to (americans are used to 1500-3000, germans to 2000-4000 RPMs). These people (which are, I repeat, the majority) wouldnt even consider pushing the engine near its redline. And thats why they will never "discover" the power of the rotary.

Like all of you, when I wanted to drive fast, the redline buzzer was my friend ! :D Even in the TII, which has enough torque/HP down low (not *so* low though ;) ), I regularly shifted at 7500 or more. But lets face it: we are the minority.

And I'm still impressed at all those people posting and saying that they were getting 20 and 25 mpg out of an FD. Damn!!! At what speeds were you driving guys ? I couldnt get more than 15mpg out of my TII even if I literally put eggs under the gas pedal (I would just end up with a nice omelette between the pedals :D)

Ok, I see what you are saying. But these same people will have the same problem in a lot of modern japanese vehicles, with their VTEC engines, and power-peaks high in the rev-range... But people are still buying them. I see plenty of S2000s, Civic Type Rs etc around.

If people don't want to rev the car, then I guess it's not for them. Just like the S2000 wouldn't be for them (I guess they'd choose the Boxster or SLK), or the Civic Type R (get a Golf or Clio 172) etc...

This isn't the only car in the world that suffers from "lack of torque".

Personally, if a few people are put off, then thats fine. I don't want to head out of the drive and pass an RX-8 at every corner. Then it'll just be another TT... :D



-andy-

Originally posted by sixspeed
Ok, I see what you are saying. But these same people will have the same problem in a lot of modern japanese vehicles, with their VTEC engines, and power-peaks high in the rev-range... But people are still buying them. I see plenty of S2000s, Civic Type Rs etc around.

If people don't want to rev the car, then I guess it's not for them. Just like the S2000 wouldn't be for them (I guess they'd choose the Boxster or SLK), or the Civic Type R (get a Golf or Clio 172) etc...

This isn't the only car in the world that suffers from "lack of torque".

Personally, if a few people are put off, then thats fine. I don't want to head out of the drive and pass an RX-8 at every corner. Then it'll just be another TT... :D

-andy-

Yeah, but remember, Honda is already a "big name", and the VTEC-equipped cars almost sell automatically. Mazda, on the other hand, needs the RX8 to be a success, which means selling to as many people as possible, and not just the enthusiasts. So, since no one among those people even knows what a rotary is, they will consider buying an RX8 with the same criteria as every other car ;)

Anyway, since the car is already on the market, we can only wait and see if this "low torque" thing has any effects on the numbers......maybe after people have started to get familiar with the wankel, the sales will increase, which will mean good things for Mazda, and probably bring the new RX7 one step closer to actually being produced :D

Sadly , bit like 'Lancia' and 'Rust' , whenever people ask me about the rotary engine , they usually say "Oh , dont they have real problems with tips of the rotors or something?"

That is the primary thought in most peoples head despite the problem being cured about 25 years ago ! ! !

True...

I think the car will have a wide apeal once it is out there, and a number of people will by the car without even knowing/understanding it has a rotary engine.

To some people as long as they like the look and price, it has a 3 year warranty so what does it matter what is under the bonnet?

Originally posted by morganrogers
Sadly , bit like 'Lancia' and 'Rust' , whenever people ask me about the rotary engine , they usually say "Oh , dont they have real problems with tips of the rotors or something?"

That is the primary thought in most peoples head despite the problem being cured about 25 years ago ! ! !

True...

Erm, not quite true, since you can easily blow a '99 spec 13REW, if you just install a boost controller and go over 14psi ;) This of course means "rebuild". On a piston engine, this usually means just a new head gasket, a new head, or -worst case scenario- a new piston. HUGE difference there........know what I mean ? ;)

Re: Torque,

As an owner of a 350Z a "Torque Monster" and an RX-8 a "Torqueless Wonder" I have to say that these reviews are seriously overstating the differences. They feel like they have nearly the same power when driving around town. If you are a racecar driver, or you compete then you have a different set of needs. But I just drive my car (albeit a little faster and harder than average)

Today, for the third time, I chirped the wheels popping into second on the 8. That's more than good enough for me.

Originally posted by Cylo
Re: Torque,

As an owner of a 350Z a "Torque Monster" and an RX-8 a "Torqueless Wonder" I have to say that these reviews are seriously overstating the differences. They feel like they have nearly the same power when driving around town. If you are a racecar driver, or you compete then you have a different set of needs. But I just drive my car (albeit a little faster and harder than average)

Today, for the third time, I chirped the wheels popping into second on the 8. That's more than good enough for me.

Well that's encouraging. :)

Chirped the wheels?

poor bird. I think thats wheel spin isn't it?

Originally posted by renegade_si
I think thats wheel spin isn't it?

LOL, exactly. Wheelspin when going from 1st to 2nd @ about 20 MPH.

Cylo - You may be in the perfect position as owners of both to settle this 'torque' issue. Could please add to your earlier comment to clarify to us who fear the torque issue that there really is not problem (or otherwise).

Also, does the car need to be at high revs to get the best out of it or is it acceptable in normal mode.

rael

Well, the driving feel on the 350ZX is really really touchy on launches when cruising around town, we always seem to over accelerate/underclutch it when launching. You can't just let it pull you. This can be attributed to the extremely steep 1st gear.

The RX-8 takes off really smooth and easy. The RX-8 is really easy to drive. You can at some slow speeds let the rpms lag and it'll pull the car not to slow and not too fast for traffic.


When accelerating in the Z you have to try harder to be in the right gear at the right time, but when you are it takes off really good.

The RX-8 really takes off in any gear @ over 4K rpm. That leaves you with a lot of room to drive still. Pick and choose year gear for the right acceleration and you are rewarded.


The Z sounds mean and ruff, and the 8 sounds dainty and swirley. But they both feel the same getting on the highway and flooring it.

Wow thats intersting.......

I thought that the 8 had the z on handeling and the z had the 8 majorly in straight line power.....

Actually i still think this...... but your experience is making me think a little more now.

Ahh yes and another question since you have the Z as well! I have heard about the Zs always complain about their fourth gear. Why?

What is the deal with gear 4?!
Is this is it a very long gear?
Do you fall out of your powerband?

I visit the Z boards pretty regularly and try to learn about different types of cars. So id love any type of info you might have on this.

Thanks!

For those of you who haven't had a sports car before (like me); I wouldn't worry about the torque issue. I have a 6-yr old Mazda Xedos which has 144BHP and 172Nm of torque. I've recently been trying to get used to driving it once again at high enough revs and using the gearbox hard to get the most out of it so that I'm ready for the RX-8.

It's amazing how getting yourself in the right gear, and using plenty of revs, can have you rocketing past people in no time. Imagine that with 23% more torque (and significantly more than that most of the time because of the flat torque curve) and 60% more power :) :)

I for one am not going to worry too much about the figures.

My FTO has less torque than the RX8 (about 147 pound foot, versus approx 159) and it revs to 8000 rpm before the redline. (mitsubishi mivec - a bit like VTEC).

I find it no problem to drive, but a bit lacking in torque below 3000 rpm. However, the torque curve of the FTO is not as smooth as the rotary one, so I don't anticipate this minor problem on the RX8. If I find the FTO easy, and have gotten used to the high revs, then the RX8 should be a breeze. It's what we get used to. And yes, I love the high revving, it's so much more fun than cars limited to 6-7000 rpm.

STU

Enough of this Torque issue, if people want torque buy a Audi RS6 (413 lb/ft).

If you want a car to really "drive" stick with the RX-8 (and save £36,000 in the process)

IMHO anyway

Chris

Im hoping torque will not be a problem. My current car has over 60% more torque than the RX8 so Im expecting it to feel "slower", but Im perfectly happy to use the revs to get the peak power :)

Im more concerned to be honest, about the lack of power threads in the main forums. If we have the same alleged lack of bhp this could be more serious.

Judging by the current mag reviews though they all seem to love the car (Autocar Excepted), so Im hoping its not an issue.

I can understand issues / discussions concerning the torque (think I've learnt a bith there!!) but CANNOT understand the issue of using the whole rev range???!!!!

I was a happy RX7 owner until the kids came along & I "volunteered" to sell the car for something more "functional".

But before I bought the 7 new nothing about the rotary engine. That all changed about 60 seconds into my inaugural test drive when the engine just kept going until this thing bleeped at me!!!!

"Fantastic I'll have it"

I can't believe that people would be stupid enough to drive it "like I drove my last car". If this was still the case we'd all be doubling the clutch, flapping our arms out of the window before turning and wondering where the man with the red flag had gone!!!!

Originally posted by rich606
I can understand issues / discussions concerning the torque (think I've learnt a bith there!!) but CANNOT understand the issue of using the whole rev range???!!!!

I was a happy RX7 owner until the kids came along & I "volunteered" to sell the car for something more "functional".

But before I bought the 7 new nothing about the rotary engine. That all changed about 60 seconds into my inaugural test drive when the engine just kept going until this thing bleeped at me!!!!

"Fantastic I'll have it"

I can't believe that people would be stupid enough to drive it "like I drove my last car". If this was still the case we'd all be doubling the clutch, flapping our arms out of the window before turning and wondering where the man with the red flag had gone!!!!

You'd be surprised to find out how many people would think that ALL engines make power at 3-4K......;)
And its not that rotaries are THAT common.......

Yeah but they only think that due to the cars that they drive.

If they went out in a rotary surely they would notice the big dially thing that goes all the way up to 9000???

Originally posted by rich606
Yeah but they only think that due to the cars that they drive.

If they went out in a rotary surely they would notice the big dially thing that goes all the way up to 9000???

Probably, some of them, but they wouldnt even imagine that the car would NEED to be revved that high to produce its "real" power ;)
I can understand how this might be difficult for some of you to visualize, but it does happen (I have seen it numerous times with VTECs and rotaries, so I know ;) ), so try to spread the knowledge......

Does anyone know why the M/T has 40 more horse power than the automatic. Is it because of a computer chip or is it actually a beefed up engien? And BTW once you add a turbo to the automatic you should see an excellent increase in power (obviously) but it wil be way more respectable..

Originally posted by COspringsRX8
Does anyone know why the M/T has 40 more horse power than the automatic. Is it because of a computer chip or is it actually a beefed up engien? And BTW once you add a turbo to the automatic you should see an excellent increase in power (obviously) but it wil be way more respectable..

No it's not just the 'chip'. The engine hardware is different too with an extra intake runner and a complex manifold with variable volume / runner length. It allows the engine to rev up to 9000 rpm vs. 7500 rpm for the low power.

There are plenty of threads explaining this. And there is no turbo kit available so far.

roger that.. thx