I know we all hate these threads but...

I know this very hardcore track guy (30+ track days per year and runs his own school) that says that there is no way a RX-8 can keep up with a E46 BMW (roughly 2000-2005, 2006 for coupe) on a race track in a race. He even says it couldn't keep up with 184 hp 325 (2001-2005) sedan. He says given that both cars have experienced drivers on any track.

Now I am basically a track newbie with only 7 days under my belt (all in the RX-8) but I really can't believe what this guy is saying. I also own an E46 325 vert and have owned an E46 330i before. Now I know that HPDEs are not racing but if I extrapolate from my own experience I find it very hard to believe that the E46 325 would beat an RX-8 in a race on any road course with equal drivers. I've run 6 out 7 of those track days with the local BMW club in their novice and intermediate run groups and I have run with all types of BMWs in run groups where everyone has a similar amount of seat time. Anyway, I've found the RX-8 to be a very capable car, similar in performance to an E36 M3. My car is stock except for the brake fluid and I've passed E36 M3s and E46M3s and also been passed by them, same goes for the E46 330 ZHPs. I can't recall ever being passed by an E46 325. Most of the older BMWs (especially the E36 M3s) that I run with are heavily modded and some are on r comps. And believe me, I'm not a great driver or anything. Just the 7 track days, 12 autocrosses or so and a car control clinic.

Also the RX-8 has won the Grand Am cup ST for the last couple of years, taking first in class in almost half the races where it is competing with the 330.

Am I mistaken to think the RX-8 can beat an E46 325 on a road course with equal and experienced drivers? What can I say to this guy or is he just lost like all of the other piston heads?

ask for a more formal demonstration.

Check out the time the Rx8 posted on Top Gear in comparison to the M3:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps/page_2.shtml

Check out the time the Rx8 posted on Top Gear in comparison to the M3:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps/page_2.shtml

yes, but that is too easy for people to rule out...different track conditions on different days. The RX-8 episode is the best!

I think their just aren't that many really experienced track guys tracking their cars yet here in the midwest. I only know of only 2 other guys that track locally, one has lots of racing experience and the other guy is closer to my level of experience.

^exactly. You want a comparison which is more realistic....

Hockenheim test times by Sport Auto.
Mazda Rx8 1,19,8 min
Mazda Rx8 Auto 1,23,1 min
Nissan 350z 1,18,7 min
Honda S2000 1,18,9 min
BMW M3 1,16,3 min
BMW M3 SMG 1,18,4 min

The 350Z and 8 were run on the same day, the s2000 and m3 on different days, but similar conditions if memory serves me. Sport Auto is far more reliable source than Top Gear. Certainly not perfect, however. But, a 3 sec difference is not likely due to environment on hockenheim.

The 8 should be able to keep up with the E46 330(C)i on a track. New ones, I don't know about, I think they got a nice power boost.

no way man, my friend has a 325ci , so much body roll!

He must be mistaking or something.

He must be mistaking or something.
He probably doesn't know much about the 8.

The 8 should be able to keep up with the E46 330(C)i on a track. New ones, I don't know about, I think they got a nice power boost.

The E90 330s are now up to 255 hp (up from 225 base or 235 ZHP).

And this guy test drove an RX-8 a few times and has owned like 4 sevens in the past. And I don't think he has ever really driven one on the track but he's probably done some pretty mean test drives since he is such a hardcore track guy.

He's a wierd guy, he's owned about 50 cars yet he's only 30 years old and he's tracked a bunch of them. I've known him for 18 months and he's been all over the map from E46 M3 to 911 and now to GTO...

the rx8 1st of all costs thousands less than the bimmer and has more passenger room in the back seats(believe it or not). I have been with BMW's on Roas Atlanta (Track days) and they are not a problem. Where the 8 shines IMO over the bimmer is in it's powerband(large amount of rpm available=less shifting), the braking, and transistions. The bimmer will pull you on the straight and on coming out of a corner. But once you add it all up they are pointing the 8 by. I have owned bimmers in the past and I like those cars.
olddragger

I've never had a problem with E46 M3s on the track. I've never been passed by one in 4 DEs with my RX-8, yet I've passed every one I've come across.

I hung out with a couple instructors at BeaveRun, this guy Jet is my driving hero. The other guy had a 323i (2.5L motor) with suspension work, but stock powertrain. I feel that we had similar driving styles, as I rode with him and he rode with me, but overall, I have to assume that he's a better driver than me. I had Dunlop SP SS Race tires (not as sticky as his Hoosiers) with Hawk HP+ front and HPS rear pads, ATE Super Blue, and B&B midpipe. You can call our cars equally modded, as their both VERY light mods. So, the conclusion of this is that I passed him with NO problem, quite quickly.

I just wish I could do suspension on my RX-8. It's a lease, so I'm not dumping big money into it. This car does fantastic on the track, even stock. I'd like to add camber and reduce the roll and transition time, though. For a stock car, it's fantastic.

The BMW has a higher center of gravity, softer springs, and less rigid swaybars. However, it does have a nice fat torque curve, but it does run out in the higher RPM band. Fact is this, lower center of gravity, and more sport oriented chassis and spring/shock/sway setup is going to equate to a faster car around corners. And despite the fact the torque curve is better in the BMW, on a twisty course, eliminating shifts is good for .25-.50 per shift elimnation. So, RX8's can corner harder, and eliminate shifts.....meaning, unless the track is a drag strip, you should do just fine over a stock 3 series. However the M's are a TOTALLY different story. Few cars in the world have the balance and poise the M3 (M5) bring to the table. Not saying they are unbeatable, because they are not, but you have to be able to push an 8 pretty hard (in stock form) to run an M3 down. Heck, my Evo has trouble with them, and I was making 280whp.

you have to be able to push an 8 pretty hard (in stock form) to run an M3 down. Heck, my Evo has trouble with them, and I was making 280whp.

Read my post above. I've never had a problem with them. Also, although it's not scientific, The Stig (of Top Gear) ran identical times with a stock E46 M3 and RX-8.

Oh, and I've only faced one Evo, but I ran him down, too.

Read my post above. The 8 was 3 seconds behind an M3 in a far more accurate test than Top Gear. What you've experienced doesn't mean squat unless the other drivers were of equal calibre and were pushing as hard as you. I have passed porsches, corvettes, bmws etc in a nissan nx2000. It doesn't mean it's a faster car.

As I have mentioned many times before, M3 drivers tend to be pretty crappy drivers. I am more than confident on most tracks an M3 could outrun an 8 with ease.

Read my post above. I've never had a problem with them. Also, although it's not scientific, The Stig (of Top Gear) ran identical times with a stock E46 M3 and RX-8.

Oh, and I've only faced one Evo, but I ran him down, too.Go drive an E46 M3 or an Evo and then try coming back here and typing with a straight face that an RX-8 could keep up with either one on any track with meaningful straights. The RX-8's arguably dynamically superior, but it's not enough to make up for the huge power deficit.

^exactly. You want a comparison which is more realistic....

Hockenheim test times by Sport Auto.
Mazda Rx8 1,19,8 min
Mazda Rx8 Auto 1,23,1 min
Nissan 350z 1,18,7 min
Honda S2000 1,18,9 min
BMW M3 1,16,3 min
BMW M3 SMG 1,18,4 min

The 350Z and 8 were run on the same day, the s2000 and m3 on different days, but similar conditions if memory serves me. Sport Auto is far more reliable source than Top Gear. Certainly not perfect, however. But, a 3 sec difference is not likely due to environment on hockenheim.

The 8 should be able to keep up with the E46 330(C)i on a track. New ones, I don't know about, I think they got a nice power boost.

Why is the M3 SMG slower? I thought they were suppossed to turn faster lap times than the 6 speed. Was the other M3 a CSL?

No doubt the M3 could beat the RX-8 on most tracks but the original discussion was whether the RX-8 could beat a 325i on any track.

I don't think so, the M3 CSL did a 1,13,xx. I cannot remember the conditions that the SMG ran in, it could have been wet. They make note of all the conditions and drivers in their reviews, i'd have to look it up. There was another SMG in the 1,17,xx that I didn't notice, and a 6 speed in the 1,17,xx's as well.

The E90 330s are now up to 255 hp (up from 225 base or 235 ZHP).


I've taken an E90 330 w/ sports package on an autoX course and I was not impressed. Suspension was way soft compared to the 8. Seem to be able to power out of the corner but that's about it.

There's a thread out here somewhere where a Bimmer race team took an 8 out and was very impressed, especially when compared to an E46 M. I'll try and find it.

one thing i want to have clarification: are we discussing/comparing race-prepped cars or stock, off the showroom cars?? two totally different discussions.

I understood it as stock cars.

I've taken an E90 330 w/ sports package on an autoX course and I was not impressed. Suspension was way soft compared to the 8. Seem to be able to power out of the corner but that's about it.

There's a thread out here somewhere where a Bimmer race team took an 8 out and was very impressed, especially when compared to an E46 M. I'll try and find it.
I don't think BMW tries to build the ultimate parking lot machine. :p: :mdrmed:

the vehicle in question is an E46 325, not E46 M3. I 've prepared and raced a number of BMWs. The E46 325 does not have an LSD which causes wheelspin issues at the track. Your friend is mistaken. The RX-8 handles better and has better acceleration than the 325. No surprise, the 325 is heavier, 3200+ lbs and the 2.5L engine output is 177 hp. All else being equal, an RX-8 6 speed will clearly win.

strike 2 for German engineering!

What strike?

I don't think BMW tries to build the ultimate parking lot machine.

:) True, but I'm not sure even BMW knows what ultimate driving is anymore either! With all their electronic gadgets and gizmos might as well let the car drive itself. (but that's another thread)

Still searching for that article, I think it was a Turner Motorsports driver who gave a rave review.

:) True, but I'm not sure even BMW knows what ultimate driving is anymore either! With all their electronic gadgets and gizmos might as well let the car drive itself. (but that's another thread)

Still searching for that article, I think it was a Turner Motorsports driver who gave a rave review.
Try searching team WTF. I think that's who wrote it. I disagree about hte electronic gadgets, it has no more than the 8 and they can all be turned off. Unlike a certain other german manufacturer *cough* mercedes *cough*.

First, track days DON'T count, because, it is NOT a race. I have run with race prepped GT3's an f50, and even turned times in the same range as a test drive for a busch team at CMP. However, does that mean I can run with the Busch guys at Talladega?:???? Hell no.

In all fairness, the RX8 does left to right physics better than a beamer, but not a M3. And, if you watch TopGear, they don't distinguish between dry track times and driving rains, it is only "the time". So, using them as a benchmark, is not really a good tool.

However, I have to admit, there is nothing like running down a car, faster than you, contribute it to the driver, whether you are better, or he is just taking it easy, fact is, that day, you were faster.

yeah, always a huge ego boost when you are running down a faster car......I had a situation where I ran down a newer 'stang GT on Victoracers!

Go drive an E46 M3 or an Evo and then try coming back here and typing with a straight face that an RX-8 could keep up with either one on any track with meaningful straights. The RX-8's arguably dynamically superior, but it's not enough to make up for the huge power deficit.

You're funny. I used to sell BMWs. I've spend plenty of time driving E46 M3s. They're fantastic. So is the RX-8. I've driven stock and modded Evos. They're in the same class, although I don't like them nearly as much as the M3 or RX-8.

Now, why do you feel that you need to qualify your statement by saying "any track with meaningful straights? Any roadcourse will have meaningful straights. They all mean something. But it's about the whole package, isn't it? The RX-8 is a horrible drag racer, that's a fact.

The RX-8 is dynamically superior and it's "huge" power defecit is a little under 100 hp, yet the car is 3-400 lbs lighter than an E46 M3. Would you say that Watkins Glen has some meaningful straights? I run down tons of faster cars going up the esses, including E46 M3s.

I typed this all with a straight face.

Read my post above. The 8 was 3 seconds behind an M3 in a far more accurate test than Top Gear. What you've experienced doesn't mean squat unless the other drivers were of equal calibre and were pushing as hard as you. I have passed porsches, corvettes, bmws etc in a nissan nx2000. It doesn't mean it's a faster car.

As I have mentioned many times before, M3 drivers tend to be pretty crappy drivers. I am more than confident on most tracks an M3 could outrun an 8 with ease.

I'll go with you on that, although I won't say that they're all crappy drivers. However, I do believe that an M3 has an edge over the RX-8, drivers being equal. The point I was trying to make is that an RX-8 runs much more closely with an M3 than any lesser 3-series.

Oh, and to all of you out there...
Contrary to popular belief, a BMW car is a BIMMER, not a BEAMER!!
A Beamer is a BMW Motorcycle.
Thank you.

Oh, and to all of you out there...
Contrary to popular belief, a BMW car is a BIMMER, not a BEAMER!!
A Beamer is a BMW Motorcycle.
Thank you

Actually, a BMW motorcycle is a "Beemer."

A "beamer" is a guy in a BMW coming at you with his brights on. :spank:

Well, what really counts is the corner before the meaningful straight. @ Roebling, you have a nice long sweeper, where you can roll through, and take advantage of the lighter weight and superior grip, without being penalized for the lack of grunt. However, at CMP, you have a tight turn before the long front stretch where you need torque to get off the corner. My Evo suffers here, because I am barely below boost range for a few ticks, before hitting full boost. M3's just grunt their way off the corner, and down the straight.

Actually, a BMW motorcycle is a "Beemer."

A "beamer" is a guy in a BMW coming at you with his brights on. :spank:

I stand corrected. And embarassed. I wrote what someone else did and forgot to check my spelling. You're correct. A BMW Motorcycle is a Beemer.

A "beamer" is a guy in a BMW coming at you with his brights on. :spank:

:lol: funny, I always thought they were just "a-sholes", oh wait, that descibes all BMW owners :p:

:lol: funny, I always thought they were just "a-sholes", oh wait, that descibes all BMW owners :p:

And some former BMW owners too :bootyshak .

:lol: funny, I always thought they were just "a-sholes", oh wait, that descibes all BMW owners :p:

hey! Not ALL!

it's a joke ... :D:

formally TeamM3 (E36 and E30), TeamZ3, TeamZ4 ;)

And some former BMW owners too :bootyshak .


oh boy, don't get me started on those P-car pr-cks :fingersx:

oh boy, don't get me started on those P-car pr-cks :fingersx:

Doesn't GH own a Boxster? :lol:

oh boy, don't get me started on those P-car pr-cks :fingersx:

Now wait... Shouldn't we distinguish what owners we're talking about? I know there are BMW and Porsche and M-B (etc, etc) owners who are pr1cks, however, in my experience, they're rarely enthusiasts. Have you guys ever done track days with PCA or BMWCCA regions? Everyone there is usually awesome. The only person that comes to mind that was rude was someone driving a Cobra. I don't think that most true enthusiasts are pr1cks. They ususally have an open mind and I've always been welcomed at PCA and BMWCCA events, even though I'm driving an RX-8. And people are always talking to me respectfully, too.

So, I know that peoples' experiences differ, but I'm just sharing my perception, and my own actions, as I've had my BMW Z3 for almost 4 years and a little over a year ago had a 325is at the same time. I don't think I'm a pr1ck (of course).

Then there's the old joke...
"What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?"
"The porcupine has the pr1cks on the outside!"

hahaha.

Now wait... Shouldn't we distinguish what owners we're talking about? I know there are BMW and Porsche and M-B (etc, etc) owners who are pr1cks, however, in my experience, they're rarely enthusiasts.

I was :stickpokeing Mr. BagOnHisHead, because he used to own BMWs. He's a prick.

He was :stickpokeing me for owning a Porsche. I am also a prick.

Doesn't GH own a Boxster? :lol:


there's always the unusual exception :dunno: :D:

Ok, I can vouch for some experiences the other way. I was at a car event, um, not BMW, and I was in my Evo, when it was bone-stock. At CMP in SC, I was running quick, lapping in the 1:55's. I had been asked to instruct, but when I arrived, they wouldn't let me, because I didn't own a Porsche. Well, I get ready to go out, and they move me from the Solo group, to the instructor group, citing, I may be too quick. At the driver's meeting I heard them talking about the Evo they were about to have fun with. Well, after the first session, I passed everything on the track (light rain) still lapping in the 1:56's. I even had a guy in a race-prepped 911 run off the end of 11 trying to out-brake me. I came in, and the chief instructor walked over to my pits. He told me I was 'too' aggressive for instructor, that I needed to be moved into full race. I had NO cage, nothing, and they wanted me in this group. Well, ego took over, and I said, sure, I will hold back, and run in your race group. I went out last, still raining, and passed every car on-track. I also put a full straight on two 911sc's running in full race trim. After this session, I came in, and they told me tomorrow, the first day of the DE, I could instruct, that I was obviously qualified.

The next day, in the dry, I clipped a 1:53 80, which is smokin fast for that track in a 'basically' stock Evo. But, it took them a full day of trying to 'humble' me to let me instruct.

Last summer I was working a corner at Roebling and the lady who owns that worker stand was telling me how cool all the drivers and racers are except for the Porsche club. At event after event it isn't the EVO guys that get dissed. It is the Boxster guys who everyone thinks are pricks. That being said, I'd get rid of my 8 in a heartbeat if I could afford a Cayman S or a late model 911.

Cayman S :) Must not be weak.....

Cayman S :Drooling_ with 3.8L engine swap :Drooling_ LSD :Drooling_

After this session, I came in, and they told me tomorrow, the first day of the DE, I could instruct, that I was obviously qualified.



As I read your post, I gathered that you hadn't run with them before, so they didn't know you, right?

I think you'd agree that they might be hesitant to let someone instruct who they don't know, who may not have experience with the types of cars that most of the students are driving. However, it's good that they gave you the opportunity to prove yourself and didn't hold you back.

At the end of October, I ran at Watkins Glen with TracQuest. This was my first event with them and only my 5th DE overall. My car is basically stock. I ran in the middle group on the first day to get a feel for the group. In that group, there's open passing in the straights and point-by passing in the turns. I didn't get passed by anything and I've run with some of the fast groups with PCA before, so I figured I was ready to go up. On the second day, I asked to have an instructor ride with me to evaluate me to go to the fast group (I took the "no frills" school, which didn't include meals or instructors). Although the director was skeptical, he said I that if an instructor felt that it was ok, then he'd bump me. So, I got the chance and took it. In the fast group, there's open passing everywhere. The instructor passed me with no problem, stating that I had good car control and judgement. So, I ran with the fast group, among Ferrari Challenge cars, a Gallardo, NSX's, 996 Turbos, etc. I wasn't faster than them, of course, but it was good to finally get passed!

Video here: http://www.scottbarton.net/anthony/TheGlen/Videos/2005-10-FastMachinery.wmv

The point I'm making is that they didn't know me, so they had to be a little skeptical, but they gave me the chance to prove myself. They didn't have to.

Nice video! Great driving fast and aggressive, it seemed the only thing passing you was exotics and a modified corvette. It good to show what the Rx-8 can do on the track against these cars. Now is your car totally stock or do you have upgraded suspension or tires? Also did you have DSC on or off?

Cayman S :Drooling_ with 3.8L engine swap :Drooling_ LSD :Drooling_

I would totally rock a Cayman S. badass to the core.

Not a Porsche fan, but I like the Cayman. I drove my friend's new BoxsterS and that was much better than his previous BoxsterS.