How is the RX8 on the track? [Archive]

CyberDog

01-05-2006, 02:52 PM

Thank you for the excellent site reference and information! Just what I'm looking for. It was really nice to see your RX8 go around NHIS since I'm very familiar with it. I primarily run with COM so when I'm there again I'll check to see if you are around and say hi.

- Bill

You'll enjoy yourself mightily.. my 1st event was bone stock at Watkins Glen, NY lin '04 and I had a blast for 2 days while getting initiated into the sport. Only thing that happened is the brakes (#) became kinda numb at the end, probably glazed over. It passed after a couple weeks of street driving (#).:) After that Limerock before I started adding things.

Check out my site & videos for what only minor performance mods (tires (#), sways and strut (#) bars basically) do for the car on track in the NE. It doesn't really cost (<2K$) to improve the car's track behavior significantly. BTW, the mods solved the hill bump and back end out at NHIS.

Oh yea, I added brake (#) air ducts to keep temps down at NHIS, temps came down from ~500 degrees to in the ~300 range after the rework. Long tracks it doesn't matter much, they get cool quick anyway. I try to not use brakes on track so much :cwm27: they last longer - same stock pads after 2.5 yrs!

Imp

01-05-2006, 03:36 PM

When was the last time you ran with COM?

CyberDog

01-05-2006, 03:51 PM

A little over a year ago. I did the November LimeRock event and a couple of NHIS ones before that in my STi.

- Bill

When was the last time you ran with COM?

Spin9k

01-05-2006, 04:46 PM

Have a DIY on your cooling duct work posted?No I haven't yet. But here are a couple pics for you. Used some drainage pipe connector pieces from Home Depot one day when I was bored:evil_laug. The angle of the inner guard is exactly angled when you cut a hole just so to shoot the air at the brake dust shield air intake area.

Nemesis8

01-05-2006, 05:30 PM

Interesting to say the least. I'll need to look this over when I get my garage built.

Nemesis8

01-05-2006, 05:32 PM

Are there any weak parts of the car?One thing I have trouble with, is seeing behind me, and looking down track heading into a right hand turn. The rear view mirror is a pain.

Michael

01-05-2006, 05:52 PM

In a DE setting, the RX-8 is incredible. My instructor (blue group at the time) was so psyched to drive it that he ran it in red group with other instructors - the two cars that it couldn't keep up with were a new Elise and a full race RS America. The Carreras and other peons fell below the awesome power of the RX-8.

Tires wear out quickly and would make a huge difference if stickier, just keep them the same width all the way around to maintain the balance of the car [aka dont stagger]. Go 1/2 inch wider for your tires than your wheel width if you can manage it. The Stock wheels are really light to begin with so dont touch those.

Good helmet- how much is your head worth?

Michael

01-05-2006, 05:53 PM

http://www.scca.com/Event/Event.asp
Results from SCCA Solo Nationals, B-Stock

T 1 48 Jason Isley 2005 Mazda RX8 Slv Kumho 57.562 56.478 55.283 114.202

Ladera Ranch, CA MAZDASPEED/KUMHO/SCCAForums.com San Diego Regio/SP 58.919 59.147 59.482
T 2 94 Joe Goeke 2005 Mazda Rx8 Blk Kumho 58.373 55.924 55.356 114.798

Kirkland, WA Team Butt Heat! Northwest Regio/NP 60.417 59.802 59.442 -0.596
T 3 168 Ron Bauer 1995 Porsche 968 Red Kumho 57.538 55.479 55.433 114.861

[68] Renton, WA Kumho / Bauerspeed Racing / Team Butt Heat Northwest Regio/NP 60.397 61.672(1) 59.428 -0.063
T 4 166 Keith P Casey 2004 Mazda RX8 Grn Kumho 60.680(2) 58.565(1) 55.817 114.883

[66] Somerset, MA RallyDecals.com New England Reg/NE 63.547(2) 60.921(1) 59.066 -0.022
T 5 93 Eric D Jones 2004 Mazda RX-8 Blu Kumho 57.365 58.201(1) 55.008 115.104

Austin, TX WithoutAClue Racing/RTRT Lone Star Regio/SW 63.879(2) 60.096 61.996(1) -0.221
T 6 82 Phillip A. Weber 2004 Mazda RX-8 Gry Kumho 57.587 58.781(1) 54.993 115.176

[182] Boerne, TX
Alamo Region/SW 64.584(2) 60.222 60.183 -0.072
T 7 58 Randall Noll 2004 Mazda RX8 Blu Kumho 57.469 68.258(6) 55.940 115.487

Carlsbad, CA
San Francisco R/NP 59.921 59.547 59.566 -0.311
T 8 191 Mark A Sipe 2005 Mazda RX-8 Wht Kumho 60.194(1) 56.031 55.741 115.526

[91] Keller, TX KONI - MazdaSpeed - Truechoice - Mazmart Texas Region/SW 59.964 59.833 59.785 -0.039
T 9 91 G.H. Sharp 2005 Mazda RX-8 Wht Kumho 65.251(4) 59.511(2) 57.001(1) 115.830

[191] Kernersville, NC SF Motorsports Central Carolin/SE 59.216 59.365 58.829 -0.304

10 196 Christopher J Hammon 2003 Nissan 350Z Enthusiast Blu Kumho 59.219(1) 58.204(1) 56.146 116.632

[96] Saint Louis, MO SCCAForums.com / SoloPerformance.com St Louis Region/MW 62.792(1) 60.852 60.486 -0.802

11 99 John P Vitamvas 2004 Mazda RX-8 Gry Kumho 58.908(1) 56.044 59.649(2) 116.669

That's just the top 10.

olddragger

01-05-2006, 06:05 PM

is that 4inch pipe you are using for the ducts? Good idea!
olddragger

BlueEyes

01-05-2006, 06:17 PM

Spin9k

01-05-2006, 06:49 PM

is that 4inch pipe you are using for the ducts? Good idea!
olddragger
Inside the wheel well it's a 5" opening. As I remember I used 2 reducers, one into the other to go thru the fender area. They were joiners that go with this type of pipe, not sure what they were called exactly.

moto_bruce

01-05-2006, 07:07 PM

Bill,

I made an acquaintance at the last track day I drove, Anthony, who also drove an RX8 (VERY fast driver). He had posted times as quick as most of the instructors, even in heavier hardware. Alot of other drivers were approaching me telling me how fast I was and I had to tell them it was the other guy in the RX8. His comment was what other car can hang with an E46 M3 for 30k? In TopGear, the Stig drove a 350Z, M3 and RX8 with identical times around their test course, all cars stock. What I also enjoy about the RX8 is that is has depth. It won't scare someone new to motorsport, but a good driver can really dance with it. I remember my first track day in the car. Bone stock off the showroom flow, not even an alignment and it was so confidence inspiring, so easy to drive fast. The car isn't going to let you hide behind horsepower. Your driving skill will be naked for the world to see. But if you really do it well, the car is very, very fast.

Some of my experience for trackin':

One other issue that I didn't see mentioned yet was fuel. I can't remember the exact level, somewhere between 1/8 and 3/8 tank if memory is serving me properly, you will run into fuel starvation. It isn't in the corners, it is on the straights which is kind of weird. The first track day I did a couple of years ago was Buttonwillow and I was cruising down the front straight at a fair clip and the car stuttered. There are theories floating around about why this happens, I don't know myself. What is important to know is that it happens and that you need to schedule your fueling properly so that you don't waste a session stuttering along. I need to do some experimenting at my next track day (May) to find out exactly the level. I was so paranoid about it last time that I would run 2 track sessions, which would run me down to just below 1/2 tank, go and fill up. Next time out I'm bringing a 5 gal jug so that I can cut down on trips to the gas station and really find out at what level I start to see the starvation.

You will use a lot of fuel. At the Glen, I saw about 8mpg. At Buttonwillow I was seeing 7mpg. Something else to figure into your expenses. My S2K buddy was seeing about 10mpg at the Glen.

On the subject of brakes, I have some observations. My car is an early 04. I drove 3 track days on the stock tires and pads, including a warm day at Willow Springs. I didn't notice any brake fade. The last event I did the Glen with R compounds and new OEM pads. I bedded the pads in properly a week before the event. However, I ended up depositing pad material unevenly on the rotors by lunch on the first day of the event and the vibration only got worst during the weekend.

A few things come to mind:

1. The new OEM brake pads are a different compound than that which came on the car. I had heard about complaints of dusty pads and replacements available from dealers that don't dust as much. I haven't noticed too much of a difference is dusting, and I really didn't care anyway.

2. I probably should have put the pads on my car much earlier to allow the compound to cure more with regular use instead of just relying on the bedding in. Just my opinion.

3. R compounds give way more grip than OEM pads can handle at track speeds, causing overheating.

As far as handling goes, the car shows more body lean than a lot of other sports cars, but don't mistake that for an unsporting setup. It is just another form of communication from the chassis to the driver. Grip is very high, the car is very progressive and doesn't surprise at the limit. Transitions are a little slower than cars with really stiff suspensions, but turns and transitions happen so slowly on the track compared to auto-x it really isn't an issue.

I noticed that I was able to generate a greater pressure increase in my front tires than the rear. You would think that it would happen the other way around, and I know that driving style has a lot to do with it, but I think that shows just how good the stock brakes are, that you can work the front tires more, in spite of spending much more time on the throttle. This also tells me that a staggered set up is not a good idea, at least in my case.

I ran the last event with the DSC on and I will continue to do so until I start to see intervention that I don't like. I did see it come on a couple of times in turn 1 when I was a little too hot for the DSC. I didn't feel uncomfortable or that I was driving beyond my level, but the intrusion of the system was gentle so I didn't feel like I was fighting the system. When I start to feel like I am fighting the system, then I will turn it off.

I hope my observations are of help.

Bruce

avakiannl

01-05-2006, 07:07 PM

I did it on the stock Bridgestones but with Koni yellows, Carbotech Panter+ front and Bobcat rear. No brake (#) fade at all, but would come unsettled a bit coming over the hump at 8 at the top of 3rd heading into 9-10. Some of that was the shocks being too stiff in the rear, but they are a PITA to adjust. so I didn't.
What are your rear Konis set at?

How about front (street vs. track)?

dmp

01-05-2006, 08:05 PM

Good call on the fuel - MY car had fuel-starvation at 1/2 tank. :(

CyberDog

01-05-2006, 08:16 PM

Bruce,

Excellent observations. Thank you for taking the time to do the writeup.

I'm glad you brought up the fuel topic. I ment to ask about that. The figures you quote were in line with what I would get with my STi. It disturbs me some that the RX8 is that bad, but I was also surprised to see the S2K getting 10 MPG too. I used to be able to go all day on one tank of gas with my 328i. Of course that was when I started tracking and didn't run the car as hard :)

I can understand what you are saying about having to be able to "drive" well with the RX8. The STi didn't require that as much, it's AWD got you out of a lot of situations and the extra power on tap made you look like a hero. Like I mentioned in my original posting, I'd like to put my Miata on the track if I can make the seat situation something I'm comfortable with (cost/safety/convenience). The Miata is like the RX8 in that it handles well but lacks any punch. You have to use momentum.

I'm glad to hear your comments on the DSC as well. I hated the DSC on my 328i. It would cut in way too early taking away power before anything really started to slip. It also lacked a differential which hurt performance a lot. Going from AWD back to RWD it will be nice to have the security of DSC until I got used to the car.

I figured at a minimum pads and brake fluid would be needed at a minimum. Deposits on the discs are a pain, I did that on my STi. Are the pads easy to swap in and out?

Again, thank you for all the information!

- Bill

Bill,

I made an acquaintance at the last track day I drove, Anthony, who also drove an RX8 (VERY fast driver). He had posted times as quick as most of the instructors, even in heavier hardware. Alot of other drivers were approaching me telling me how fast I was and I had to tell them it was the other guy in the RX8. His comment was what other car can hang with an E46 M3 for 30k? In TopGear, the Stig drove a 350Z, M3 and RX8 with identical times around their test course, all cars stock. What I also enjoy about the RX8 is that is has depth. It won't scare someone new to motorsport, but a good driver can really dance with it. I remember my first track day in the car. Bone stock off the showroom flow, not even an alignment and it was so confidence inspiring, so easy to drive fast. The car isn't going to let you hide behind horsepower. Your driving skill will be naked for the world to see. But if you really do it well, the car is very, very fast.

Some of my experience for trackin':

One other issue that I didn't see mentioned yet was fuel. I can't remember the exact level, somewhere between 1/8 and 3/8 tank if memory is serving me properly, you will run into fuel starvation. It isn't in the corners, it is on the straights which is kind of weird. The first track day I did a couple of years ago was Buttonwillow and I was cruising down the front straight at a fair clip and the car stuttered. There are theories floating around about why this happens, I don't know myself. What is important to know is that it happens and that you need to schedule your fueling properly so that you don't waste a session stuttering along. I need to do some experimenting at my next track day (May) to find out exactly the level. I was so paranoid about it last time that I would run 2 track sessions, which would run me down to just below 1/2 tank, go and fill up. Next time out I'm bringing a 5 gal jug so that I can cut down on trips to the gas station and really find out at what level I start to see the starvation.

You will use a lot of fuel. At the Glen, I saw about 8mpg. At Buttonwillow I was seeing 7mpg. Something else to figure into your expenses. My S2K buddy was seeing about 10mpg at the Glen.

On the subject of brakes, I have some observations. My car is an early 04. I drove 3 track days on the stock tires and pads, including a warm day at Willow Springs. I didn't notice any brake fade. The last event I did the Glen with R compounds and new OEM pads. I bedded the pads in properly a week before the event. However, I ended up depositing pad material unevenly on the rotors by lunch on the first day of the event and the vibration only got worst during the weekend.

A few things come to mind:

1. The new OEM brake pads are a different compound than that which came on the car. I had heard about complaints of dusty pads and replacements available from dealers that don't dust as much. I haven't noticed too much of a difference is dusting, and I really didn't care anyway.

2. I probably should have put the pads on my car much earlier to allow the compound to cure more with regular use instead of just relying on the bedding in. Just my opinion.

3. R compounds give way more grip than OEM pads can handle at track speeds, causing overheating.

As far as handling goes, the car shows more body lean than a lot of other sports cars, but don't mistake that for an unsporting setup. It is just another form of communication from the chassis to the driver. Grip is very high, the car is very progressive and doesn't surprise at the limit. Transitions are a little slower than cars with really stiff suspensions, but turns and transitions happen so slowly on the track compared to auto-x it really isn't an issue.

I noticed that I was able to generate a greater pressure increase in my front tires than the rear. You would think that it would happen the other way around, and I know that driving style has a lot to do with it, but I think that shows just how good the stock brakes are, that you can work the front tires more, in spite of spending much more time on the throttle. This also tells me that a staggered set up is not a good idea, at least in my case.

I ran the last event with the DSC on and I will continue to do so until I start to see intervention that I don't like. I did see it come on a couple of times in turn 1 when I was a little too hot for the DSC. I didn't feel uncomfortable or that I was driving beyond my level, but the intrusion of the system was gentle so I didn't feel like I was fighting the system. When I start to feel like I am fighting the system, then I will turn it off.

I hope my observations are of help.

Bruce

TheArchitect

01-05-2006, 09:13 PM

Pads are pretty easy to swap, but you'll need to be aware that the fronts and the rears work a little differently when pressing the pistons back in so you can fit newer (thicker) pads in. On the fronts you can just use the normal tool that forces the piston in, but in the rear the piston compresses by a twisting motion (sort of like turning a screw). You can buy a tool for it, or do like I do and just use needlenose pliers to twist it in. I bet there are DIYs somewhere on this forum, but I haven't looked.

The RX-8 is a phenomenal driver's car. It demands a lot of the driver in stock form to get the most out of it, but it is incredibly rewarding to drive fast. I have found that I can keep up with some pretty fast cars (#) (driven by experience drivers) simply by virtue of the chassis balance. But, the car can also bite you if you drive it clumsily.

We have found that it is both more docile and more responsive, albeit slightly less willing to rotate, with certain suspension modifications. My assessment is that it appears that the Mazda engineers have used the roll designed into the suspension and low rebound damping of the rear shocks to allow the rear end to unload, or decompress, a fair amount to induce rotation through the camber increase (toward positive) resulting in a reduced contact patch, and maybe even a slight change in toe toward out as the rear suspension extends further (counter-intuitive, yes, but I believe it's used as subtle passive rear steering, which becomes less subtle at the limits). This allows the car to really rotate well under trailing throttle or under braking - sometimes a little too well if you aren't careful. I'd say be sure to brake in a straight line instead of trail braking into the turn while you're getting comfortable with the car, being sure to get most or all of your braking done in a straight line. On a stock suspension, trail braking heavily can really bring the tail around, though the car is amazing in how easy it is to catch once it rotates (thank you low polar moment of intertia). Trail braking with Whiteline sway bars front and rear and coilovers makes it much easier to trail brake safely and makes the car incredibly agile and responsive. The rear suspension simply doesn't unload as much, and there is hardly any roll, so the things that the suspension engineers design in are to some extent removed to gain other benefits. You have to learn to drive the car a bit differently. A slightly different alignment helps, too.

As people have said, depending on the ambient temps and the track you're running, if you're driving hard you can fade the brakes and boil some fluid. I've run many events with ATE SuperBlue and Carbotech PantherPlus or XP8s up front and Bobcats in the rear and have never experienced fade, even on 105 degree days with long sessions. And, the Carbotechs are quite rotor friendly. I've had my original rotors two years now, with a pretty good number of events, and they're just now looking like they're ready to be replaced, and that includes having them turned once after some pad deposit from running the OEM pads at the track early in the car's life.

In summary, the car is amazingly well built for the track. DPE's WRX (RIP - replaced by a new STI today) has issues with overheating the front hubs and getting pad knock-back (the calipers get pushed outward due to the hub allowing the wheel, and hence rotor, to rotate outward slightly in corners once the hubs heat up), and that was with StopTechs. The result is a pedal that goes to the floor when braking after a hard corner on track. The WRX also tortures tires - it can chew through a set in no time if they aren't rotated, because it's pretty hard on the fronts. DPE's 350Z is an Enthusiast with the stock braking system, and with Bobcats on the rear it toasts the rear pads in a couple of events (time for XP8s out back). The 350Z is also nowhere near as balanced a chassis from the factory as the RX-8, which shows on track. Now, the 350Z can be driven with a bit more abandon and less fear of getting bit, but I believe the RX-8 to be the more rewarding to drive. The RX-8 has a piece of metal that sticks out of the splash shields on the brakes to direct air flow to the rotors after the air passes through the oil coolers, which really seems to help on track. I can only say good things about how well the RX-8 is built to withstand the tortures of track use, at least when used in DEs with session times of reasonable duration.

All of the praise for the stock RX-8 aside, it does benefit on track from upgrades. For fade-free fun, I'd say do a minimum of an upgrade to Carbotech XP8 pads on the front and ATE SuperBlue fluid. It'll make a world of difference once you start pushing the car hard. It makes up huge distance under braking when you start pushing hard, and that's when it really is nice to have something better than OEM pads and fluid. I have left the track a time or two when the car was still on stock pads wondering if I could stop at the first stop sign outside the gates. And, the Carbotech stuff (especially XP8, PantherPlus, and Bobcat) is extremely street-friendly, not needing to be heated up a bunch to work like some track pads. And, of course I would be remiss if I didn't mention that we do sell Carbotech pads and ATE SuperBlue. But, we sell them because we use them ourselves and believe they make high-quality stuff that delivers lots of bang for the buck.

olddragger

01-06-2006, 10:37 AM

I listened to DPE and I am glad of it. They have been VERY helpful. The rear koni's are set at 1/2 turn from full soft and then you leave them alone. The front konis are full soft for street and one firmer for the track(best for me so far thank you DPE for the guideance). One thing also not mentioned is on any high speed turn with any kind of dip to it, the front end will get a "little " light with the stock shocks. Turn 12 at Road Atlanta is a good example.
WIth the konis/tein springs and rb sways I can trail brake anywhere at any speed. Just have to ease on the petal a little at the time. Much differant than approach the turn till you see god and put both feet and an elbow on the brake petal! The suspenion really helped with those trail braking double apex turns.
One other good time about the car on the track is the transmission, great shifting--6 speed--ratios are close--most tracks you only need 3 and 4th gear.
The engine purrs on the track and will go all day. Just do the good cool down laps and pit procedures.
After the race track then you can go to the building supply store and buy some 2x4 lumber for that project --put it in the 8 with all the windows up and drive home. WHAT A DAMN CAR!
olddragger

dmp

01-06-2006, 10:56 AM

A bit more on DSC - I think it's very safe to leave the DSC off - but not 'all the way off'. I found with just the 'dsc off' illuminated, but 'not' the 7-second-hold, the car carried a LOT of speed, the back end would step out on occasion - however. With the DSC full-on, Any slippage would result in the brakes grabbing/power loss. Even with the DSC Off illuminated, there's still enough TCS/DSC function remaining to keep the car on the track.

:)

Red Devil

01-06-2006, 11:01 AM

Thanks DMP, I was wondering about leaving the DSC at that half off/ half on stage...will be doing my first track day soon and was debating that...

ZoomZoomH

01-06-2006, 11:21 AM

get a base RX-8 and you won't have to make that decision ;)

dmp

01-06-2006, 11:22 AM

Thanks DMP, I was wondering about leaving the DSC at that half off/ half on stage...will be doing my first track day soon and was debating that...

I started the day with everything 'on'...pavement was wet. After the lines dried up, I did the 7-second-completey-off thing. Car fish-tailed like a SOB... :) Yeah, I'll read replies 'you obviously weren't driving it well enough'. So what? For my skill level, I was MUCH faster w/ just the stability control part-way-off. :D

Experiment, and post pics/vids! Good luck!!

TrackAddict

01-06-2006, 11:37 AM

My feedback...

Having done 6 trackdays last year all with upgraded suspension (Racing beat springs and sway bars) the RX8 is a pleasure to drive and easily keeps up with cars that have more hp/tq due to its excellent chassis.
DSC
Stiffening the suspension has made the DSC less forgiving of any slip angle though. I have to take issue with DMPs suggestion that a single press of the DSC button keeps DSC working but at a lesser level. This is not true in my experience. DSC off is DSC off. It will not catch you if you lose it and I have video to prove that. The traction control defeat (8second press) doesn't buy you much since we don't have enough tq to break the rear wheels loose accelerating out of a corner (unless you are on a wet, slick track at which point it would be a bad idea to turn off any aids). Some people say that the 8 second press gives better electronic throttle response but I havn't noticed.
Tires
A great mod is a set of sticky tires. I ran my last 2 events on Toyo RA1s. With DSC off, the car was easy to drive and exhibited impeccable manners. At the limits of traction the steering communicates well what is going on. Catching and correcting oversteer is easy providing you stay smooth and calm.
On stock tires I found the best hot temps(coming off the track) to be around 37psi (front and back). This means cold temps around 31psi. Play around with it.
Brakes
As for upgrading brakes - I ran 3 track events with stock pads. No fade, no boil. If you brake early and ride the brakes you will expereince fade but if you go deep and brake hard, you should be OK. This was true for me on my early events. If you are very fast, you may want a pad upgrade right away. Upgraded pads with better fluid was a worthwhile mod. My expereince with Hawk pads is to recommend using the same compound (HP+) for front and rear. I used the lesser HPS pads for the rear and under heavy braking the back felt unstable. HP+ rears are on the way for me :)
Have fun and be careful. All my vids are linked in my signature.

Red Devil

01-06-2006, 11:54 AM

I'm planning on switching to Bobcats front and rear and probably Motul600. The only other suspension/braking mods I have are SS brake lines, Whiteline F&R sways, and JIC F&R strut braces. I'm contemplating going to Koni/Tein before hand also, but am thinking I'll probably wait as I'm not sure that I may not just go to a full coilover like the JIC FLT's. I'm still on the OEM Dunlops, but they have more than 50% tread. I'm waiting for those to wear before I upgrade to wider wheels/tires.

Will get pics when I go...

Thanks for all the input guys...

dmp

01-06-2006, 11:56 AM

Imp

01-06-2006, 01:22 PM

TrackAddict

01-06-2006, 01:58 PM

...and Your vids are awesome. :)Well thank you very much. Track time is so addictive. The GA RX8 Club gang has rented out a track for Jan 28th for a private track day. We'll only have 10 participants. I can't wait. Should be good for over 3 hours of track. Thats probably 3 tankfuls of gas and the rest of the life of my R compounds.

olddragger

01-06-2006, 03:31 PM

Heck you wanted some more r compunds anyway!
OD

TheArchitect

01-06-2006, 09:41 PM

For track, you should have more than Bobcats in the front.. either P+ or XP8s.

--kCTrue statement, if one is really pushing the car hard. However, if not using the brakes (#) to their fullest, especially on a low temperature day, Bobcats and high quality fluid should get a person by just fine. Best scenario for HPDEs is, in our opinion, XP8s up front since they are very streetable and then really shine on track (and Bobcats on the rear work just fine - no need to change the rears out if you already have Bobcats all around for the street, or you can even go with OEM until you wear them out).

But, for someone going to their first or second HPDE ever, the Bobcats should suffice. As the driver gets more comfortable, though, for sure go with XP8s or P+. Once you start using all of the car's braking ability, brakes do become an issue, no question. But, there are plenty of people who can go a full day with stock pads and come out alright, and Bobcats are a step up from those. Just depends on how hard you're going to drive the car on track. When you're ready to upgrade from Bobcats up front to XP8s, you'll know it, and then you'll be ready to buy some new pads.

But, until you're at that point, don't feel like you can't get out there and learn and have fun without track pads. If you want to make absolutely sure you won't have fade on track, go ahead and get the XP8s up front to go with Bobcats or XP8s in the rear. But, if you are looking to see if track days are for you and you just want to get out and learn and have fun, Bobcats and good fluid will serve you well until you decide if it's worth the money to upgrade to track pads. And, really, with any pads you run I would recommend high quality fluid like what we carry on our site, with our favorite being ATE SuperBlue for highest bang for the buck, or Motul if you want the absolute highest quality fluid with the highest boiling point. If you want to read a bit more on the subject of brakes, be sure to check out our technical articles regarding brakes on our site.

avakiannl

01-07-2006, 01:01 AM

But, until you're at that point, don't feel like you can't get out there and learn and have fun without track pads. If you want to make absolutely sure you won't have fade on track, go ahead and get the XP8s up front to go with Bobcats or XP8s in the rear.
I have some experience with the Hawk HPS and HP+ pads. How do the XP8s compare?

I really like the HP+ but can't stand the noise on the street and really don't want to swap pads all the time. Dust is not a concern. Some squeal is ok for me, just can't handle the volume of the HP+ and it seems each corner is at a slightly different frequency, drives me batty.

TheArchitect

01-07-2006, 05:19 PM

I have some experience with the Hawk HPS and HP+ pads. How do the XP8s compare?

I really like the HP+ but can't stand the noise on the street and really don't want to swap pads all the time. Dust is not a concern. Some squeal is ok for me, just can't handle the volume of the HP+ and it seems each corner is at a slightly different frequency, drives me batty.
The XP8s compare favorably in performance, and are our favorite due to not being as corrosive as the Hawks and dusting less, while providing tremendous on-track performance. Unfortunately, the XP8s won't solve that noise problem. I don't really know of any track pad that doesn't make noise when driven on the street. I can appreciate the desire to avoid swapping pads, though.

Our solution is to run good aggressive street pads front and rear, and just swap the fronts only to track pads, and not hassle with shims and anti-squeal, when getting ready to head to the track. Doing it this way, it only takes a few minutes to swap pads, literally. The longest part is getting the wheels (#) off and on. We run Bobcats on all of our DPE cars (#) on the street, and then swap to XP8s up front for the track. It's not as nice as not swapping pads at all, but it reduces it to a tolerable nuisance, anyway.

If you are easy on brakes (#), or if your track is easy on brakes, you may be able to get away with Bobcats all around and just go from street to track without swapping. Not ideal, mind you, and there's no guarantee that they won't fade, but with high quality fluid and the right conditions it can work. You'll likely go through the Bobcats somewhat more quickly than would be the case in track pads if you're hitting the track with them regularly or as you start to use the brakes more aggressively, but as a compromise for street and track from one pad, that is an option (with the aforementioned caveats about it potentially not working, depending on conditions).

TheArchitect

01-07-2006, 05:35 PM

And, what I failed to mention in the previous post is that Bobcats front and rear on track won't necessarily work for every car. Not all cars (#) are as easy on brakes (#) as the RX-8 (#) is. We can't, for instance, run just Bobcats front and rear on the DPE WRX, whether on the stock brakes or on StopTechs, because the car just generates way too much heat up front. Bobcats on the rear of the DPE 350Z (#) don't seem to cause a degradation in performance on track, but unfortunately vaporize after only a couple of track outings (in a non-Brembo-outfitted Z, that is), justifying XP8s at both ends on that car.

Different cars make different demands. The RX-8 just makes fewer demands in the braking department than most cars thanks to fairly light (and balanced) weight, good brake (#) bias, and built-in cooling for the fronts.

olddragger

01-07-2006, 05:59 PM

TheArchitect

01-07-2006, 06:51 PM

once you run the xp's you will never go back! Hit those babies and you better have extra glue on your dentures! Absoulutely great set up for me is the xp's in front and the bobs in the back. Takes maybe 30 mins to swap them out.
Olddragger
Yeah, like olddragger says, in addition to heat tolerance the XP8s do bite hard once up to temp, and just seem to get better as they get worked harder. Of course, they can also expose your tires as a weakness by locking them up more easily if you aren't smooth with your braking and aren't running something pretty grippy like r-compounds, much more so than the OEM pads or even Bobcats front/rear would do. The better your tires, the better you'll be able to take advantage of the XP8s.

moto_bruce

01-07-2006, 10:52 PM

Although I use Ate, another great bargain in brake fluid is Valvoline Synthetic. Cheap, almost as good as Ate and easy to get a hold of.

Bruce

moto_bruce

01-07-2006, 10:59 PM

Imp

01-08-2006, 09:06 AM

Although I use Ate, another great bargain in brake fluid is Valvoline Synthetic. Cheap, almost as good as Ate and easy to get a hold of.

Bruce

Ford DOT3 is the best hidden gem I've found. Not a synth so fully compatible with current brake fluid, and can be had at any Ford Dealer, for around $3.50 - $4.00/bottle.

From another site:

Brand DOT Rating Dry Boiling Wet Boiling
AP Racing 550 DOT 3 550°F (287°C) 284°F (140°C)
AP Racing 600 DOT 3 572°F (300°C) 284°F (140°C)
ATE Super Blue DOT 4 536°F (280°C) 382°F (194°C)
ATE Super 200 (amber color, aka Type 200) DOT 4 536°F (280°C) 382°F (194°C)
Bosch DOT 3 DOT 3 491°F (255°C) 288°F (142°C)
Bosch DOT 4 DOT 4 509°F (265°C) 329°F (165°C)
Bosch DOT 4+ DOT 4 536°F (280°C) 356°F (180°C)
Castrol LMA DOT 4 446°F (230°C) 311°F (155°C)
Castrol SRF DOT 4 590°F (310°C) 518°F (270°C)
Ford HD (C6AZ-19542-AB) DOT 3 550°F (287°C) 284°F (140°C)
Motul DOT 5.1 DOT 5.1 509ºF (265°C) 365ºF (185°C)
Motul Racing Brake Fluid 600 DOT 4 594ºF (312ºC) 421°F (216°C)
Performance Friction Z-Rated DOT 3 550°F (287°C) 284°F (140°C)
Wilwood 570 DOT 3 570°F (299°C) 284°F (140°C)
Wilwood EXP600 Plus DOT 4 633°F (330°C) 417°F (213°C)

Min. Temp. for DOT Rating
Dry Boiling Wet Boiling

DOT 3
401°F 284°F

DOT 4
446°F 311°F

DOT 5
500°F 356°F

TeamRX8

01-08-2006, 09:27 AM

note the wet boiling point for Castrol SRF as compared to anything else

tomfree

01-08-2006, 09:29 AM

Ford DOT3 is the best hidden gem I've found. Not a synth so fully compatible with current brake fluid, and can be had at any Ford Dealer, for around $3.50 - $4.00/bottle.

I'm another Ford HD DOT3 fluid user. The stuff is great for the budget and works very well on track. Between a friend and I, we buy a case of Ford HD fluid each season for the last 4 years. It's around $50 a case for 12 pint bottles, and if flushed regularly, it's fantastic. I like the pint bottles vs the quart bottles so you don't waste so much fluid.

On tracks that aren't as hard on brakes, you can easily get a full weekend out of the fluid. For those tracks that are harder on brakes, we usually just flush out a little from each corner after day 1, top off the resevoir and move on. I see some of the folks that run ATE or Motul doing the same thing. Both of us are pretty brutal on brakes, so I feel like we're getting our money's worth.

mlx8

01-12-2006, 12:53 PM

Cyberdog ~ I do a lot of Audi Club events, and am an Audi owner, but of the "older" variety 5 cylinder S4/6 cars. I've done several DE events with the Audi Club. IMO, and experiece the Rx8 will generally handily out perform the newer, but heavier stock 2.7 twin turbo and V8 S4s, as long as the track has enough curves in it to overcome the Audi's decided power advantages.

OTOH, if it snows,

see eg. www.winterdrive.com and
http://www.audiclubrmc.org/Events/DrivingSchool/QuattrOlympics/Registration.asp

all bets on the Rx8 are off :-) My 8's since been somewhat modifed for track use, eg. a Willwood front brake kit w 13x1.25" rotors, and a new fuel system see to solve what for me became a significant performance and safety issue with fuel starvation in corners - http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=59992&highlight=fuel+starvation

I've had more than one Porsche driver & club instructor come up after a run session to ask about the car and favorably comment, after running with the 8, on how well they think it does.

GULAMAN

01-12-2006, 03:54 PM

.

Hey mlx8 & cyberdog, another Audi owner here! I've had an A4 for the past 5 years now, enjoyed AutoXing and tracking it a lot, but really wanted to move back to a 'purer' performace car, hence my new RX8. I must say, getting some initial track time in an AWD platform like the Audis was definitely a good stepping stone, very forgiving overall. But with my improvement as a driver I felt like I really couldn't get much more speed out of the car without spending a lot of money (more than I had already spent in moderate mods)...and thus diminishing returns. The added weight of the Quattro system can be as much a burden as a boon, esp when it's dry out. and of course the power band of the turbo engine, while torquey, is pretty narrow.
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to getting this new car out there in various events this year, and 're-learning' RWD and neutral-balance dynamics!

.

Spin9k

01-12-2006, 04:19 PM

Hey GULAMAN and mlx8, not sure were you're at, but I went with the Audi Club to Mont Tremblant last Oct and I can attest that Audi owners (who came from all over the US for this national meet) who track are a really good bunch of guys and gals, serious in their pursuit of driving (#) enjoyment. Many of the different Audi's in stock/some mods form were pretty easy to pass, esp in the corners, but the full race (#) preped ones were a different story, with grip and HP I can only dream about! Made it all the more fun :naughty:

I can't wait to track w/them again this year - they put on top flight events!

GULAMAN

01-12-2006, 04:40 PM

Yeah, Spin9k, Audi club guys are great. that M.Tremblant track looks like a beaut too, I'd love to drive there some day. but I'm far far away, I'll have to settle for nearby Laguna and Sears Point in the meantime ;-)
I had the pleasure of getting a ride-along in the Stasis Engineering World Challenge A4 a couple years back, at an Audi Club track day. Wow!!

Audis are good cars to get your feet wet. factory braking systems, understeer, and roll resistance are weak points however, then theres the porky weights too. But as you saw with plenty of $$ and labor they can become formidable; just look at how well they compete in World Challenge pro touring against the factory-backed teams. But by all accounts the RX8 seems so much better suited to performance, right out of the box :)

Dark8

01-12-2006, 05:25 PM

Would you guys shut up! The RX-8 isn't a good track car - we are all just really good drivers! :ylsuper:

mlx8

01-13-2006, 10:15 AM

IME, and I have several very heavily modified UrS4/6's (i.e., the 5 cylinder version) I agree, the Rx8 IS a much better HPDE value right out of the box.

Spin9K I'm very interested in your Traqmate thread. http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=80159&highlight=traqmate

FWIW, I started looking at getting some type of track timer/dataloging system about a year or so ago when the TraqMate was still in its "vaporware" stage. They were running adds in Grassroot Motorsport Magazine back in February/March, but hadn't yet released a product. That led to a search, and the discovery that a lot of new frims either had, or were the cusp of releasing a slew of (relatively) affordable GPS track timing/maping products.

In addition to Traqmate, I found that some of the other "old line" longer established companies like: AIM's "MXL" system was/is just being updated to include affordable GPS tracking; Race Technologies "DL1" system out of England; and finally Racepak Data in California was just releasing their "G2X" package.

Just when I thought I'd figured out what I wanted, I'd discover some other feature(s) etc that were being added or integrated into either the hardware or software ~ of most interest being the (hopefully) easy ability to integrate a camera video recorder with the track data. I'm very impressed with your last high definition Traqmate thread / demo.

I was ready to pull the trigger and buy a portable system in October in the hopes of taking it to Germany for an Audi DE in the new RS4's at the Nordschlief, and having it ready for the last of the local fall DE, but then in the space of @ a month the Rocky Mountain area lost 3 of the local tracks. Second Creek close for good in November, we knew that was going to happen, but then Pikes Peak Motorspeed way outside of Colorado Springs unexpectedly announced it would be torn down; and the local owners of the Continental Divide track north of Denver apparently ran out of patience in dealing with constant complaints etc, by the local municipalities and decided to close as well. No tracks has put the search for a data logger on hold, but you video etc has rekindled an interet.

FWIW, I've heard a rumor that the AIM MXL offering is "supposed" to be able to plug into the Rx8's databus to capture inputs (e.g rpm and ?? other) directly from the incar systems, which can then be integrated in the the rest of its functions. No idea if this is in fact, or fiction. OTOH, the AIM is, I think, more expensive than the Traqmate, which seems to offer the most for the money.

Spin9k

01-13-2006, 11:14 AM

mlx8, I did some research myself and was in the end intriqued by the Traqmate more than the old guard equipment, because it promised many if not all of the benefits of the old systems without most of the hassle, plus new things not possible before.

BTIM, may peps believe that for accurate data you need sensors hooked everywhere into the car. In fact you do not, but old technology and ideas die slowly as new ways of doing things come to the forefront with technological advances. One thing Traqmate needs now is RPM data, and they'll have the appropriate sensor avail shortly, plus others simply to satisfy the market perceived need, valid or not.

Take the brake sensor. Trackmate does it without one by using -gs and speed. Look at their braking zone map. It's perfect - no additional sensors. I love it. Lap times, just come back to a GPS marker - no track beacon required. etc., etc.

The biggest selling point for me (and how it avoids the need for some hardware sensors) was the Traqmate software. The software interface IS what makes the rest useful. Without an easy to understand, flexible in use, graphically mind-expanding software bundle, all the technology in the world is pretty much worth diddlie. Bits and bytes don't help you drive better, visuals do, showing what actually occurs. Many old guard I found had trouble just getting up a decent website, no less helping me see how their hardware would really help me perform.

Traqmate let me download the software, download real LIVE track data from wonderful tracks around the country, play the data as the end use would, and see the value and feel how it works. Getting my hands on the inner workings was what sold me. I knew with that kind of feedback I would be able to make $10,000 worth of use out of it so for $1K it was a no brainer.

TrackVision, on the other hand, supports many data loggers, Traqmate was just a recent addition. Different loggers have different data, But when I heard about Traqmate being a part of it I thought WOW I get to have my good data for cheap in wonderful detail AND NOW I get to review it again from the driver's seat! $120 bucks - I think they are simply giving this stuff away! Again it's the software stupid !

The HD camera was my own idea - Sony had just come out with it, I hated how sucky my video's resolution was, and I wanted more. With the Sony camera I learned how to cut and edit HD, and the TrackVision miracles of miracles takes the HD .wmv files I create and turns them into what you see 720x480 beautiful clips.

It's a good day in techno land for us track nuts who can deal w/bits and bytes. Knowledge IS power AND speed! :rock:

needmorerotors

01-14-2006, 06:40 PM

I seen a video and the rx 8 got the same track time as a 350z and a bmw M3 so my guess is that they handle pretty damn good.I can also tell you that from personal experiece.I raced a dodge srt with stage 2 turbo and he should of smoked me but I made all the time up in the coners so that should tell u enough.

PedalFaster

01-14-2006, 08:14 PM

Unintentional humor alert... :rofl:

GULAMAN

01-14-2006, 10:17 PM

Although I use Ate, another great bargain in brake fluid is Valvoline Synthetic. Cheap, almost as good as Ate and easy to get a hold of.

Bruce

I've never moved from DOT3->DOT4 on a car before; did you guys do anything special other than getting a thorough flush when switching to DOT4?
I still have 2 unused cans of ATE for my previous car, i'd like to put it to use before I take the RX8 on its first track day.

also, about how much new fluid does the RX8 require for a good flush?

BlueRenesis82

01-14-2006, 10:44 PM

Just noticed, didn't see anyone mention oil!

Rotaries consume a lot of oil under track conditions. Bring some with you. In a 2 day event, I used 3 quarts. That was over 300 track miles. I was checking my level every other session.

Bruce

how long were you waiting after parking it to check the level?

Also, how would I go about cleaning pad residue off my rotors? I have a set of StopTech slotted ones that have some buildup on em.

BlueRenesis82

01-14-2006, 10:47 PM

Also, from a guy running a stock suspension with the exception of RB sways and a front strut brace, would it be worth going to the RB springs? Any other recomendations for shocks? Konis?

REMillers

01-15-2006, 12:47 AM

rx8 is a great track car. Im 6'1" --dont get the sunroof option as it decreases helmet clearance--workable by letting the seat recline a littel. Brakes are GREAT. Handling outstanding. Our group has a guy that is selling a EVO to buy an 8. Its a momentum car so doent expect gobs of hp/torque. Car also is very versatle--family of four can go on vacation in it.
olddragger

Chime in on this also, at 6'1 almost 6'2 with a helmet and AutoX it is very uncomfortable. If I sit straight up with a slight decline like I do in normal driving my head is at a 45 degree angle with the helmet. If I decline the seat a bit more and sit way foward on the seat I can clear it just barely. Makes for a very very snug fit. I'm scared to turn my head to much for fear of wearing a spot in the head liner :)

Spin9k

01-15-2006, 09:25 AM

also, about how much new fluid does the RX8 require for a good flush?
Can't find the system's exact fluid capacity, but the easiest way to insure a good flush is two use a different dyed brake fluid (http:///#). When it changes color at each wheel (http:///#), flow a bit more for good measure, then continue. Same color fluid it's pretty hard to tell unless old is dirty looking (really old!).

how long were you waiting after parking it to check the level?

Also, how would I go about cleaning pad residue off my rotors? I have a set of StopTech slotted ones that have some buildup on em.
His estimates of oil (#) use are correct, in my experience. After I do a session (20-25 min) there is a typically a 40-60 minute period before the next one. Check a bit before the new session to be sure the oil level has equalized and you're not overfilling.

Your brake vendor's site is your friend http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_padremoval.shtml

TrackAddict

01-15-2006, 10:31 AM

I have found a single can of ATE (1 liter) is enough to flush the brake system. ATE makes the same fluid in blue and in amber. Alternate betweeen the 2 and you will easily know when all the old fluid is out and the fresh is in.
I hope there is nothing wrong with my car since I don't even use up a quart over the course of a track weekend (8 X 20 minute sessions).

ZoomZoomH

01-15-2006, 10:47 PM

^maybe you're not driving hard enough to use enough oil ;)

BlueEyes

01-16-2006, 01:07 AM

BTIM, may peps believe that for accurate data you need sensors hooked everywhere into the car. In fact you do not, but old technology and ideas die slowly as new ways of doing things come to the forefront with technological advances.

I don't think it's the accuracy people are worried about, rather, the range of data available to a unit such as the Traqmate. If I recall correctly it has 9 inputs, the unit I have used in the past, has 40. The Traqmate is actually quite limited in it's capabilities, but, the information it does provide is the fundamentals. It is surely quite useful to anyone but the most serious of track junkies.

As well, it is by no means a new idea, nor replacing anything. Cars have used accelerometers/GPS to gather data for years. What appears to be new, is the user interface and availability

moto_bruce

01-16-2006, 11:58 AM

I was doing some thinking about the DSC issue and I believe it comes down to driving style on whether or not it is a nuisance for the driver out on track.

I assume that the DSC was designed primarily for normal road speeds first. I will use some San Diego roads for example, I'm sorry for those who are not familiar. Think about your favorite chunck of black top, maybe something like Palomar Mtn road. It has tight switchbacks up one grade, and more sweeping up the other grade towards the summit. Your speed through the tight stuff midturn is only 30-40mph. On the wider stuff, midturn speeds are probably 45-55mph. I may be hitting speeds in excess between turns, but generally the turn speeds aren't close to the high speeds I may hit between turns.

The most critical point in the turn is the point were I'm getting off the brakes and stablizing the car. I trailbrake a little bit, it is natural for me. This is the point where the chassis is the most unstable as I am shifting weight from forward to aft as I ease off the brakes and squeeze on the throttle and I am also shifting weight left to right as I dial in more steering input. Think about every time you lost it or nearly lost it whether auto-x or taking a spirited drive and probably most of the time you scared yourself was at this point in the turn.

As I slip the car into the turn (everyone slips the car, even your grandma, just not that much), the DSC starts watching me. If the amount of slip I generate is more than what DSC is programmed as safe, it takes action. No surprise.

Now this is where I make another assumption. I assume that the rate at which a driver slips the car is also watched by DSC. I initiate slip slowly into the turn until the car is set. So for me when DSC intervenes, I wasn't changing my slip angle at a high rate anyway so I see it as gentle intervention. Some drivers are really good mature trailbrakers and are comfortable initiating good slip angles and do it quickly. DSC feels more like a wall when it intervenes.

Think about being out on track and the speeds. The slow corners on track are like the fast ones out on a drive and the fast corners are really, really fast. You are already operating the car that much closer to its limit, and you have less in reserve. When DSC intervenes it will feel more intrusive because you have less in reserve, you have less reserve traction.

For me out on track, right now, DSC doesn't slow me down. If you are a stronger trailbraker, I can see how DSC would feel too intrusive. If you are new to trackin' and feel like the DSC is intervening too much, be careful about disabling it. You may be a natural trailbraker and a demon on the slow pedal. But the RX8 has a very low polar moment which is why is just seems to go where ever you point it. With the DSC off, you can easily point it into a spin. Your corrections must be quick and deliberate.

BTW, just because you have DSC on doesn't mean you can't spin the car! Done that.

Bruce

Spin9k

01-16-2006, 01:22 PM

Good observations moto_bruce. I'm confused by the number of drivers that feel DSC intrudes (bothers) during their driving (http:///#) and say "turn the stupid thing off all the time" or "real drivers don't use DSC", things like that. It's rather curious, I wish I could see the programming parameters for how DSC decides to activate. I've only felt DSC *on the street* in taking off from a side road quick where it of course catches the tail under throttle if it goes out. I'm glad for that. Being a flatlander, we don't have much in the way of challenging roads, plus there's lots of traffic, and I believe I drive conservatively usually.

On the track, when I leave DSC full on, it activates occassionally under extreme conditions, but sometimes not. Perhaps the amount it interfers is inversely proportional to how smoothly you drive. I find I do leave DSC on more on *long stretched out tracks* rather than *shorter technical tracks* (for reasons given below).

I have to drive my car home from the track, and DSC is something I feel helps me do that at certain tracks. My driving (#) style is not one where I race (http:///#) up to the apex at full throttle before a turn, stand on the brake (http:///#) to the ABS engage point, crank the wheel (http:///#) and slide around the corner. Perhaps if I did I would feel alot more DSC intrusion. But I don't.

What I've experienced generally is decelerating into a tight turn (~70-90 degrees) from high speed (80-100mph) as I enter the turn (what seems to be) the outside front wheel (#) will go into ABS mode briefly, maybe once or twice for a 1/2 sec - I may not be correct in which wheel or wheels (http:///#), but that's about the only times I feel it intrude. I don't think it slows me down much. I use it to tell me I wasn't smooth enough at that particular point. Why? because I think the DSC engage points have quite a wide envelope and they're just gently telling me I'm stepping on the ragged edge, and I could have technically done better at that point.

Maybe I'm not going fast enough, but I don't use the brakes (http:///#) much during turns (I've already slowed), and pretty much after the apex I modulate a bit then full speed ahead as soon as I've setup correctly. There's generally not enough power there to modulate after that, I just mash and go unless it's a sweeper or an 'S' turn. I just feel like DSC could possibly save my butt in a bad situation, and it doesn't seem to intrude terribly.

On short technical tracks with turns everywhere and straights that don't go over 100, I useally turn off DSC as it does seem to *modulate engine power* too much under those situations, forget braking for the moment. I can really feel the difference, and it slows me down alot. Here I modulate power and brake (#) constantly, and trail brake as turns and straights are almost one and the same.

There's a lot of variables that come into play...driving style, road or track conditions, tires (http:///#), etc., but I feel that in certain circumstances the car's electronics is my friend, and I welcome it - and in other conditions I prefer to go it alone, taking no offense to turning off what I consider good and sophisticated tools (#) that are useful given the right situations.

IOW I think the car is an excellent corner carver with all the right tools available for the job at hand and I'm appreciative of the designers passion for handling exellence by also including good DSC, TCS, and ABS programming.

Spin9k

01-16-2006, 01:34 PM

I don't think it's the accuracy people are worried about, rather, the range of data available to a unit such as the Traqmate. If I recall (http:///#) correctly it has 9 inputs, the unit I have used in the past, has 40. The Traqmate is actually quite limited in it's capabilities, but, the information it does provide is the fundamentals. It is surely quite useful to anyone but the most serious of track junkies. I'd be keen to know what 40 parameters are useful to the most serious of track junkies. Beyond that how do you analyze or aggregate that amount of data into a form that helps you?

My mind wanders to pics of auto manufactures with test mules and wires and computers all over, under, and on top of a car to gather whatever, but I'd like to know more about gathering these quantities of data *for iimproving ones driving (#)*? Or would it be more along the lines of *shaking out a new race car's (#) mechanical systems*?

olddragger

01-16-2006, 04:11 PM

great description of the on the track dsc stuff. On tracks such as Road Atlanta with very little run off believe you be i leave it ON. Just have to drive smoother.
Olddragger

olddragger

01-16-2006, 04:18 PM

BlueRenesis82

01-16-2006, 09:57 PM

I have asked this before but since this thread has turned into a kind of all track questions discussions thread i thought i would ask this. I have been running pre mix(and we have discussed this before) on the track only because i am a little concerned with my beer keg engine getting enough oil at substained high rpm. My question is --I wonder if pre mix actually changes the power output any? I know it feels a little smoother but I really haven't did(nor do I know of any) tests relative to that. Ideas anyone? Think it may increase compression a little? Now we are talking of a 5oz per 16 gal mix--not a whole lot. And if this is hijacking well its unintentional.
olddragger

I wouldnt assume it would alter your power output, simply because the oil doesnt actually burn for power in the engine, it just burns to help keep the seals lubricated. All the 7 owners that do it do it for improved engine life, not to add on additional power. If you went and added a turbo or SC, the you might have a differenet answer

moto_bruce

01-17-2006, 10:10 AM

Spin9k,

I agree with you and I think my driving style is similar to yours. Slow hands, slow input into the car, except for correction. I'm really trying to be as smooth as possible, but it is work and takes the concerted effort of my appendages.

I can understand your point about turning it off for slower tight courses. The extreme example for slower and tight is auto-x and I certainly turn it off for that. I have to because I'm more likely to slip the rear end of the car quickly to tighten up a turn or even steer with the rear end. I'm comfortable doing it at auto-x speeds. Most of my recent track days have been Watkins Glen and it ain't slow. There are some places where I will steer with the rear and the DSC will actually let me do it, a little bit, but not much.

I'm just not sure what the car does when it finally lets go at higher speed. I made a mistake a couple of years ago at Willow Springs (DSC on) and spun the car under throttle. I was coming out of turn 3 (left) going up the hill towards turn 4 (right) and I spun. It was a hot day, my tires were a bit greasy and I think I ran into some marbles as I was slightly off line, as well as a change in the incline of the hill which probabaly contributed by unweighting the suspension a little bit. It seemed to go quickly. Actually, I didn't deal with the situation properly and put the car into a situation that no driver aid was going to help.

It is the low polar moment that keeps me cautious about turning DSC off. Auto-x speeds, no problem, works to my advantage to turn it off. But the high speed stuff... Low polar moment to me means a car that is quick to change direction. That is good if controlled. But it also means you have to be really quick to catch it.

I had mentioned earlier that the car is great for those new to motorsport and those with experience. I think the low polar moment is one of those things that appeals to advanced drivers because they have great car control and are better at manipulated the slip angles of the front and rear tires, while those that are earlier in the learning curve can benefit from DSC. Can't treat DSC by itself, it is part of the package.

Bruce

Spin9k

01-17-2006, 11:07 AM

Spin9k,

I'm just not sure what the car does when it finally lets go at higher speed. ....It is the low polar moment that keeps me cautious about turning DSC off. ... But the high speed stuff... Low polar moment to me means a car that is quick to change direction. That is good if controlled. But it also means you have to be really quick to catch it. BruceMy fun experience I'm sure you can relate to was turn 1 at WG last summer. Day didn't start well, got lost getting to the track, no coffee therefore, ended up showing up late, had to quickly unload in the parking lot, get inspected during the 1st run group up, my video cam was broken upon unpacking (in hindsight, just luck, no visual proof :hahano: ), you get the idea.

Turned off the DSC 1st session - mistake! Hindsight says, cold tires (#), shaky me, didn't mash the loud pedal at 1st sense of disaster...I think it was 1st off-yellow lap I did a 360 *in* turn 1 :Eyecrazy: with traffic all over my ass. It was all over in a second, fortunately I spun to the inside right at pit out. No harm no foul except to my sensibilities for the rest of the day as I entered :angel:turn one each time thereafter!

The 200' off-camber radius 18, where you join back into the short course leaving the boot is the place where I feel the elctronics make the car feel most different. With it on, the rear end kinda feels disconnected and loose as the brakes (#) seem to pull the rear out alot to get you around the corner as safely as possible; with it off it feels like a regular corner, that is, going reasonable speeds.... that armor plate at the run out is about 12" off the edge of the track, as I'm sure you remember, and makes an imposing impression!

spin

TrackAddict

01-17-2006, 01:49 PM

I think DSC is a great system. My experiences on track are mostly with DSC on. I did have a scary spinout in turn 5 at road atlanta (http://silvereightstudio.com/movies/TheSpin.wmv) last spring though while running with it off. I was getting frustrated because it would grab the front brakes in turn 3 which is a quick right hander where you hop the curbing. The car would push ever so slightly at the apex and DSC would try to correct. It was an unneeded correction as a bit of slip is totally natural there.
My next event was with Toyo RA1s at Roebling Road. I ran the first session with DSC on to get a feel for the car. At one turn (5) I felt DSC activate and all was well. My instructor said it was a nice save so I directed praise to the car. When I turned off the system I was going into the same curve and felt the car slide slightly. I didn't panic and just gave a bit of steering and the tires grabbed. My instructor asked if that was me or DSC and I had to take credit that time. Roebling is a track that has a back half where you steer with the throttle. If you pick up the speed, you need to turn off DSC if your suspension is upgraded. The stock setup allowed more freedom.
My last event of 2005 was at Rockingham, NC which is a banked oval (37 degrees I believe) and an infield road course. At 91 mph on the banking DSC would freak out pulsing the ABS on the outside rear tire. Think about that for a minute. Can you say extra rotation? Scary as hell. I seemed to forget to turn off DSC each time I went out. When would I remember? Lap two in Nascar Turn 1 & 2 when I was up to speed and exeeding 91. Lucky I work up to speed so I was always right at the threshold of where it kicked in. I am not sure how much of the DSC system is based on G-Forces but I am sure that on steep banking there is a lot more g force in a weird direction that the car isn't expecting. I drove the whole weekend with DSC off and the car felt good but my goal was to drive it home. So keep it at 8/10s and don't be stupid. If you drive with DSC on, it won't defy the laws of physics either.
Best advice is don't drive over your head and feel what the car and tires are doing. The RX8 communicates very well through the steering wheel.
I don't think it is a testament of skill or anything to drive with DSC on or off. You do what is comfortable for you and it may vary from track to track. I won't run Road Atlanta with DSC off because of the danger of an off. One close call is enough for me.

olddragger

01-17-2006, 04:17 PM

well said
olddragger

moto_bruce

01-17-2006, 04:42 PM

Spin,

Oh yeah. Coming back onto the old course from the boot, oh joy. I'm always easy (read chicken) into that turn, probably 6/10ths. And my line is very conservative with a late entry and a very late apex. That turn is pretty evil because it is unlike most of the other turns at the Glen. I believe most of the other turns have some banking (6 degrees?) so there is always more traction than you think. You get used to it then you hit THAT turn and ugh! It's a bit unnerving.

I think your adventure at turn 1 is interesting. I had DSC intervene only on turn 1. If I recall correctly, the entrance into turn 1 is a decline so you kind of drop into the turn as you are steering, then the car gets heavy as I hit the bank. I think this light - heavy thing was the critical issue in activating DSC for me and may have been enough to upset your car enough to spin.

If there is anywhere to make a mistake at the Glen, its got to be turn 1. No armco! Congrats on your successful and inexpensive spin. :)

Bruce

El Kabong

01-18-2006, 02:55 PM

Did my first HPDE this past weekend with the RX-8 at Motorsports Ranch Houston. Stock tires and rims. It's a great track (to this newbie, anyhow) - 2.9 miles long, only one elevation change.

The car handles great, and I didn't find the DSC a problem. It did come on a few times, and my instructor and I puzzled over what could be tripping it. The best we could come up with was the car didn't like trailing throttle (which made it a great DE car for beginners, in my instructor's opinion). But the better I drove, the less the DSC came on.

But overall, great car. Underpowered relative to most of the Porsches I was running with, but hey, what isn't? Kept up with most of them in the twisty bits. Able to out-handle an inexpertly-driven Elise (got to pass him a few times).

The brakes were great - Hawk HPS up front, stock in the rear. I didn't feel any fade over the 180 or so miles. Gotta get some more seat time and eventually some stickier tires. Kept the tire pressures so that they would be at 40 at all four corners when I had just come off the course (i.e., didn't really pay attention to what they were cold). And I gotta keep practicing the good habits I started to learn at the track. It was eye-opening to realize how sloppily it's possible to drive on the street with a car that covers up your mistakes.

And it turns out I have bigger nuts than most Porsche owners. Lug nuts, that is, so it was hard to find a socket to check torque settings on my wheels.

-El Kabong

ZoomZoomH

01-18-2006, 03:27 PM

21mm socket to check yer nuts, don't leave home without it.

El Kabong

01-18-2006, 03:51 PM

MSR Houston was great for this beginner, because most of the track is bounded by dirt or fields of grass, so less worry about going off-track. No trees or terrain to look at, but no trees or terrain to worry about smacking into. Just the wall separating you from pit row.

-El Kabong

BlueRenesis82

01-18-2006, 09:47 PM

21mm socket to check yer nuts, don't leave home without it.

Don't forget the key to the stock wheel locks either! Every day past is one day closer to the first track day of '06!

TrackAddict

01-18-2006, 09:57 PM

Speaking of wheel locks - ditch them. It is only a matter of time before the key or the locks strip or break and it is exactly when you don't want it to happen.

BlueRenesis82

01-18-2006, 09:58 PM

o rly? Havent had any problems with mine

ZoomZoomH

01-18-2006, 10:17 PM

the club that i do HPDE with is fine with wheel locks as long as i provide the key so they can check the torque during tech inspection.

BlueRenesis82

01-18-2006, 11:36 PM

thats actually not a bad idea to swap em out tho. Maybe I'll see if i can find my spares.

Spin9k

01-19-2006, 06:08 AM

the club that i do HPDE with is fine with wheel (#) locks as long as i provide the key so they can check the torque during tech inspection.
Boy that's pretty anal of them. What club is that? They don't trust you to do check your own nuts lol:whipping:

Matt RX8

01-19-2006, 11:30 AM

Speaking of wheel locks - ditch them. It is only a matter of time before the key or the locks strip or break and it is exactly when you don't want it to happen.

that's good advice. One time last summer I was packing my car on a Thursday night getting ready for an driving school the following Saturday and I noticed I couldn't find the stupid key of the wheel locks. Ended up having to go the dealer the following morning and have them remove them. It added some undue stress to my life for a few hours...

Anyway, I don't use them on my summer wheels and tires anymore...

BlueRenesis82

01-19-2006, 03:11 PM

The only thing I wish I had was more power, heading up the front straight at Road America can be hearbreaking as I watch people whistle past me.

Razz1

01-19-2006, 10:44 PM

Out here in Calif. they teach to not use DSC. you become reliant on it. Then when you get fast and turn it of you loose control. alot of people have had problems with that.

As far as spining tires, dependsupon your set up. With my mods I spin the rears very easily.

First time on Track I warped the rotors. You need good pad and DOT 4 fluid.

I think the DSC might have caused the warping.

Do you really want to drive fast and then have a computer slam on the brakes?

DSC on slows my corner exits.

If plan on not being hard core and doing alot of track days then, leave the DSC on.

BlueRenesis82

01-19-2006, 11:43 PM

Matt RX8

01-20-2006, 01:30 AM

you know you most likely have deposits on your rotors right? you can fix that by getting a set of hawk blues and bedding them on your rotors.

But I do totally agree with you about learning with it off to let you learn how the car responds on its own without any computer input.

I agree with the no DSC option as well although I'll use it on the track in rain/snowy conditions.

If you do spin though, make sure other people aren't in the car because you might never hear the end of it.

olddragger

01-21-2006, 12:06 PM

But what if you are on a track with little to no run off? Like our Road Atlanta? Judgement call I would think. My main goal is to be able to drive it home. Now if I am on Roebling or anyother track that has a lot of run off---sure--turn it off. I have found our Nanny to be very unintrusive when the run is smooth.
olddragger

BlueRenesis82

01-21-2006, 09:39 PM

I don't use my DSM when I run Road America with the Kink, there is a whole 6 ft of runoff there, and its a flat out turn

willhave8

01-22-2006, 05:25 PM

Stop it, Stop it I said...

Stop talking about the track. I can't stand it anymore -- I have to wait ~two more months to try any of the things you are all talking about. Stop it I can't take the wait...

For one, I will use my DSC at the Glen until I stop driving. I plan on taking it off when I go back to VIR. I could feel it slow the momentum of my car down in turn 12 (the Oak Tree) as my instructor was trying to get me to 'throw' the car around 12 by stabbing the brakes and turning wheel at the same time. The intended effect was to throw the rear out and get pointed down the back straight. With the DSC on and in third gear, the DSC would brake the wheels and cut the throttle on me so that I would end up in too low an RPM range with no momentum and no power. I plan to try two things next time. First, turn off the DSC and stay in third and second, keep it on and try to coordinate a downshift into second gear between 11 and 12. That will take some real finesse and skill that I am not sure I can muscle but combined with the DSC off, is, I am convinced, the faster way to work that section of the track.

:)

BlueRenesis82

01-22-2006, 06:50 PM

hey man me too! April for us

dannobre

01-22-2006, 06:59 PM

I'm hoping for Mar :(.....I found that the car with the DSC on is very inobtrusive if you drive it to 95%....and if you push it too far it will start to react....about at the time you realize that your corner entry is way too hot....

Spin9k

01-22-2006, 07:08 PM

It was almost 60 here couple days ago, and now no snow on the grnd at all... til tomorrow anyway:dunno:I'm hoping for April ... only 8 weeks or so to go :blue: til then... I took the 8 out today ... ummm.. cold air ... nice power .... fun

BlueRenesis82

01-22-2006, 07:10 PM

damn 60? Thats pretty nice

tomfree

01-22-2006, 10:02 PM

I plan on taking it off when I go back to VIR. I could feel it slow the momentum of my car down in turn 12 (the Oak Tree) as my instructor was trying to get me to 'throw' the car around 12 by stabbing the brakes and turning wheel at the same time. The intended effect was to throw the rear out and get pointed down the back straight.

It's popular to trailbrake in the back half of Oak Tree to get the car to rotate like that. That is definitely not a DSC-friendly maneuver. My last instructor at VIR-F had me doing that in my old Miata. It felt great when I actually did it correctly. The Spec Miatas and IT Miatas do it with no brakes, just a lift. It's a thing of beauty.

I'll be at VIR-F in a couple of weeks in my 8. This is my first school in this car, and I'm giddy as a schoolgirl :ylsuper: I won't be turning DSC on or off. Mine's a base model :hahano:

BlueRenesis82

01-22-2006, 10:08 PM

oh yeah base's dont have that. Almost killed myself in a non DSC equipped car on my test drive!

But it is fun to hang it all out and not have a computer pull your fun

MazdaRich

02-01-2006, 01:37 AM

I've driven my base at the track a couple of times. It's pretty mild and easy to control--in fact the only time I've spun the car (aside from autocross) was at about 10 mph going around a corner on the street when it was cold outside. It made me a little gunshy about driving in the cold on the stock tires.

You won't stress the car much on the stock tires at most tracks. The brakes should hold up fine--just limit yourself to 20 minutes. Upgrade fluid and pads if you plan to change tires or go longer than 20 minute stints.

Personally if I was looking for a track-only car I'd buy something like an old Miata so I wouldn't have to worry as much about putting it in a wall. I thought my suspension-modified Miata was as much fun at a track as the RX-8. The 8 has so much power that it can get a little scary at times, but the suspension is so good that it always remains composed. Then again you can always get track-day insurance.

avakiannl

02-01-2006, 07:09 PM

The 8 has so much power that it can get a little scary at times, but the suspension (#) is so good that it always remains composed. Then again you can always get track-day insurance.
Where do you get track-day insurance?

Jay Goldfarb

02-02-2006, 08:37 PM

I finally have to add my 2 cents worth on the subject of DSC on the track. As an instructor with NASA, BMW CCA, PCA & PBOC, I never have a student leave on their DSC. The object os HPDE is to learn to drive your car, not have your car drive you. Students all want to go fast, but it's always best to slow down, learn the line, track, brake points, turn in, apex, track out, etc... Build speed as the student progresses.

8/10ths is max for HPDE. I did get a laugth about lots of runoff at Roebling. You don't want to go off at that track anyway but straight. Sand slows you down real fast and if sideways it is a sure roll. I can tell you this from experience.

For newbies to track, I recommend good brake fluid and lots of seat time before spending bucks to improve car. Than I suggest, brake pad upgrade, sway bars, springs and shocks. Than you can become a comlete nut like me and go to the extreme.

Mods to date: Seats, roll bar, 5 point harness, oil temp and pressure guages, lighten flywheel, tein flex with electronic control unit, Random tech cat, borla exhaust, CCW's racing 9 x 18 one piece wheels with toyo Ra1's, StopTech front brakes, Pads (Colbalt VR's front, Halk HP10 rear (sometimes use blues all around -Sebring). MS nose and rear spoiler. Not sure what's next, but it new strut tower brace seems to be calling.

Anyone who wants to, feel free to email me at: jayg@printwithbudget.com with questions.

Jay Goldfarb

BlueEyes

02-03-2006, 11:33 AM

Or be a complete nutter and buy a race car!!

Jay Goldfarb

02-03-2006, 12:18 PM

been there, done that. Sold alum. trailer and race prepared M3 6 years ago. Sold street E-36 M3 two years ago for the RX8. It had 140,000 miles on it and 28 track days. It was tired.

It is only a matter of time, that I start over and ditch HPDE and go back to racing.

Jay

TeamRX8

02-03-2006, 01:06 PM

next time I'd recommend the hollow aluminum trailer ...

Jay Goldfarb

02-03-2006, 01:30 PM

Is that anything like a hollow brain

TeamRX8

02-03-2006, 05:40 PM

don't be dense ... :p:

TrackAddict

02-06-2006, 07:22 PM

Jay - with your experience, correct me if I am wrong as I really am working on my skills.

I have been doing some reading to try to understand more about what goes on with the car and driving technique on the track and I think I am beginning to get a better understanding. I first started doing HPDEs in Sept of 2004 and have 7 such events to date. Although I am not very experienced, I feel like I have learned a lot and progressed over this period. OK, those are my qualifications or lack thereof...
In the early stages of performance driving you spend most of your time learning the line. The car is far from its limits so you can drive as fast as you are comfortable, make corrections and DSC stays out of it. The occaisonal mistake wakes it up and it saves you. All is well and it has done its job. Hopefully you analyze what you did that made it come on and avoid unsettling the car like that. There is plenty of learning to be had this way in my opinion and a good recommendation for someone who just wants to enjoy their car on track.
Then as you get more seat time, speeds start increasing. This is because you learned your way around the track and can thus carry more speed. However, at a certain point, you find yourself driving the car fast enough that DSC intervenes all the time. You get to a certain point that initial turn in gives you a bit of understeer (which is natural in street cars). Understeer gives way to a 4 wheel drift (which is natural when you reach the grip limits of your tires), and finally you make throttle adjustments to tuck the nose in (oversteer) to make a nice tight apex. The understeer to drift to oversteer throws DSC into a frenzy trying to stop this craziness. In short, it gets in the way. To drive like this, you must turn off DSC. So if the goal is to pick up more and more speed on the track, you will reach a point where DSC is an aid that will slow you down. On a stock suspension, DSC allows a lot more freedom to understeer/drift/oversteer than what it allows with stiffer sways/springs.
So DSC is not all bad, but at a certain point in ability and speed, it becomes a limiting factor. I don't think it is a good idea to just throw your car around and count on DSC to save you because you will never learn that way. However, it does provide a safety net if you approach performance driving with the intent to work on skills and build up to a point where you must turn it off.

Jay Goldfarb

02-06-2006, 07:53 PM

Track Addict

You said it perfectly. You are now at a level where DSC will hurt the learning curve. Think of your instructor as your DSC. If he or she is doing things right, they should keep you out of trouble before you get in over your head. By the way, that's easier said than done. The instructors job is to keep you under control so that you can learn. It's why schools such as Skip Barber, Bondurant keep students away from the full redline and power curves until they are ready.

When you make changes to the car, try to limit what you change at a given time, so that you can get a feel of what the change has done to the car. Also try to ride with your instructor in their car if possible. Hope that helps.

Jay

expo1

02-06-2006, 09:57 PM

Also try to ride with your instructor in their car if possible. Hope that helps.
Jay Jay I think I am about at the same level, as Track Addict and I want to second that tip, taking a ride with an instructor does wonders for the learning curve. Not having to worry about what gear your in, wrecking your car lets you focus on what the driver is doing to take the fastest line. In regards to DSC what I do is on a wet track DSC on all the time. If it’s dry I just leave it on for the first run of the first day till I am comfortable with the track layout.

Stop&TurnFreak

02-10-2006, 12:57 AM

Always, Always, ride with your instructor, NEVER try to do what they do, should they show you 'too' much. It is easy for the brain to get your body in a situation it can't get out of.

Riding is several RX8's I have found, as you start to mod the suspension, and add grippier (sp) tires, DSC becomes far more intrusive. One thing I try to do is drive a car to the limit but be smooth enough not to trigger DSC. I ran a totally stock RX8 on bad street tires to a 1:28's at Roebling, with the DSC on. Turning it off only netted me another 2/10's, maybe.

But, when I drove a couple other cars with sways and c/o's I couldn't make a move without the DSC going nuts and pulsing like crazy. Turn it off, and the suspension mods really show what the car is capable off.

BlueRenesis82

02-10-2006, 11:52 PM

I always ran with mine turned off....gives you a sense of whats really happening

Jay Goldfarb

02-11-2006, 01:36 PM

I am now going to add another factor to the equation of enjoying your RX8 on the track, or any other car on the track.

Learn to heel and toe your braking and downshifts. Unless you are in an automatic, there is no way to get the full enjoyment of the really good chasis of the 8 by upsetting the balance of the car without proper braking techniques.

If anyone needs instructions on these technique feel free to ask. It is essential to learn this before you get to the track and not while learning a shit load of other things.

Jay Goldfarb
Instructor with: NASA, BMW CCA, PBOC & PCA

expo1

02-11-2006, 02:00 PM

Learn to heel and toe your braking and downshifts. Unless you are in an automatic, there is no way to get the full enjoyment of the really good chasis of the 8 by upsetting the balance of the car without proper braking techniques.

If anyone needs instructions on these technique feel free to ask. It is essential to learn this before you get to the track and not while learning a shit load of other things.

Jay Goldfarb
Instructor with: NASA, BMW CCA, PBOC & PCA I still need to work on that. Which method do you feel works best with the RX-8’s pedals? The ball of the foot on the brake, heel on the gas like in the Time Attack video? Or the left side of foot on the brake / right side of foot on the gas?

ZoomZoomH

02-11-2006, 03:04 PM

I still need to work on that. Which method do you feel works best with the RX-8’s pedals? The ball of the foot on the brake, heel on the gas like in the Time Attack video? Or the left side of foot on the brake / right side of foot on the gas?

depends on the size and width of your foot. I have size 11 feet, and the most efficient way for me to heel toe is ball of right foot on the brake pedal, and turn my foot just enough that i can blip the gas pedal with the *side* of my right foot

the key to me in doing the heel toe is learning how to be gentle on the brake pedal, meaning know how to modulate the brake pedal so that when you brake you're not upsetting the chassis, yet at same time you're not stabbing the brake so hard that your right foot is 'off balance' and you are unable to turn your right foot to reach the gas pedal, and have the touch to blip just enough to allow for smooth downshift

it's all about having a soft foot and know how to apply pressure on the pedals *gently yet firmly* ;)

BlueRenesis82

02-11-2006, 03:41 PM

yeah, once you learn how to heel toe in the 8, its a thing of beauty approaching turns and downshifting

Jay Goldfarb

02-13-2006, 08:18 AM

ZoomZoomH is almost right in his approach to Heel and Toe. Ball of foot on brake and side of foot blips the throttle. Gentle on brake is not the right approach to high performance driving and braking. When I raced my M3, I used the Anti-Lock all the time. It was a progressive hard brake. I didn't just slam on the brake, but it was a quick progressive motion and it's the same in the 8 or any car on the track. One of the reasons to lower and use stiffer springs is to minimize the forward transfer of weight during braking. In a stock car the front dives more and thus transfers more weight. Try trail braking in a stock car and one that is lowered and you will see a tremendous difference in handling. The blip of the throttle is when you are well into the braking zone and almost at the point of brake release, but not quite.

For those not sure how to do it, practice with a hard push on the brake while standing still and roll the side of your foot and blip the throttle. Once able to do it standing still than try on the road. Not easy to do if you use a light braking motion.

ZoomZoomH

02-13-2006, 10:14 AM