I just watched it on 'Frontline' and it was the best program on Wal-Mart I have seen to date.

I never realized just how deeply Wal-Mart and Chinese manufacturers were intertwined, and how co-dependent and symbiotic their relationship is.

Should we stop shopping there then?

I didn't say that, did I?

But now that you raised the issue, even indirectly, I do wonder what long term impact shifting so much manufacturing to China will have on American living standards, job prospects for younger people, and in some cases, national security.

I don't have a definitive answer, but I think it's healthy for American citizens to ask these questions of themselves and their political leadership.

Can you give us some cliffnotes?

Ya, I didn't mean to like, insult you or anything. But my question I think is THE question that is being addressed, isn't it? Last I checked, Walmart was a store... Take your time...

Can you give us some cliffnotes?

Sure.

Wal-Mart grew healthily from the 60s to the early 90s, then hit a roadblock. It's stock price languished.

It devised a strategy to increase margins by purchasing more items from China, which cost far less, and by encouraging existing suppliers in America to shift their manufacturing facilities to China.

Their margins grew, and they overtook Sears, Kmart and other U.S. retailers soon thereafter.

In the process, Chinese firms gained technical expertise (especially those producing consumer electronics) they did not have before, and towns like Circleville, Ohio, which formerly produced televisions for firms like Thompson-Philips lost their major source of high wage jobs (that had pension and health benefits). In fact, the plant in Circleville that closed was the most efficient plant in Thompson-Philips supply chain.

*In a cruel twist of fate, Wal-Mart is now building a distribution center in Circleville, and the wages are less than 1/2 of what the Thompson-Philips wages were nearly a decade earlier, and lack the same benefits.


The same consumers who appear to be able to purchase more at Wal-Mart because of the low prices may be suffering wage compression because of the shift of manufacturing jobs to China (1 million in the last 3 years).

So, it is somewhat of a double-edged sword. The question that is being debated is which side of the sword is sharper.

Ya, I didn't mean to like, insult you or anything. But my question I think is THE question that is being addressed, isn't it? Last I checked, Walmart was a store... Take your time...

Nope. Wal-Mart is now officially a manufacturer, as well as being a distributor.

Wal-Mart owns many of the companies that produce the brands you see in its stores, such as the ILO LCD and Plasma televisions.

here is the program available online, for those that missed the broadcast:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/

here is the program available online, for those that missed the broadcast:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/

Thanks, Zoom.

i'm already amazed just watching the first segment, continue watching...

Eh, Stores like Home Depot also work extremely closely with their suppliers, so much so, you would think they own them as well, and in a way, they sure do, they have them held captive.

The example you discussed above is a shame. The Chinese workforce is superior to American workforce, in that they will do the same work for 10% of what americans demand to get paid. Walmart says, fine, you get the work and we will sell the goods. What's wrong with that? It's international trade the way it should be. As long as fairness rules, let the chips fall as they may.
edit: hehe, I thought I'd better underline the fairness part. I'm sure the show discloses fairness issues of which I know nothing about. So, lets get on with it. I'm just saying that if fairness rules, then why not do business everywhere in the free world. To not do it would then be a form of discrimination in my book.

Eh, Stores like Home Depot also work extremely closely with their suppliers, so much so, you would think they own them as well, and in a way, they sure do, they have them held captive.

The example you discussed above is a shame. The Chinese workforce is superior to American workforce, in that they will do the same work for 10% of what americans demand to get paid. Walmart says, fine, you get the work and we will sell the goods. What's wrong with that? It's international trade the way it should be. As long as fairness rules, let the chips fall as they may.

It's not that simple, though.

Consider these issues: 1) Chinese manufacturers are subsidized by the Chinese government in many ways - some that we know about and can quantify, and in other ways that we can't. 2) Chinese firms are not obligated to adopt the environmental standards that American companies are (or other companies in Canada or Europe). They can pollute the air and water, and do. 3) Chinese companies pay no health insurance benefits, pension funds, or other fringe benefits. 4) Chinese workers are employed for as little as 25 cents per hour, and $100 U.S.D. per month. 5) Chinese companies regularly "dump" goods into the U.S. market at prices that are below their cost of production, just so that they can maintain relationships with distributors/retailers.

So, in may ways, the "fairness" you refer to does not exist. It certainly is not a level playing field. And in many ways, it simply creates a "race to the bottom" in terms of living standards.

I am mindful of the benefits that cheap, imported, finished goods can provide to American consumers, though, and whether anyone wants to believe me, I am actually quite fiscally conservative.

It is the national security issues raised by this trend that concern me most. Their are parts that the Pentagon/D.O.D. sources that cannot be procured through domestic sources today.

I am also concerned about what happens to a nation that literally loses its manufacturing base. This is also a national security issue, in addition to being an economic one.

The questions that come to mind now become:
How can they produce such wonderful product for so little money?
When they get sick, do they just die or something?
At $100 per week, how can they afford things?
Or do they all live in the streets and eat dog food?
How does their economy and government work to keep all of these people alive in such miserable poverty?

The environmental issues are good and very important points. Those issues must be addressed and they must play fair in that regard!

The national security issues don't really excite me. I don't believe it.

We'll never loose our mfg base, not as long as there are people who need to work for money. They'll just have to work harder for less, and if you want to hear my opinion, that's been a long time comin'.

Special interest groups get their hands into shows like these. I love to watch them too, but be careful just how much you're gonna swallow.

The questions that come to mind now become:
How can they produce such wonderful product for so little money?
When they get sick, do they just die or something?
At $100 per week, how can they afford things?
Or do they all live in the streets and eat dog food?
How does their economy and government work to keep all of these people alive in such miserable poverty?

The environmental issues are good and very important points. Those issues must be addressed and they must play fair in that regard!

The national security issues don't really excite me. I don't believe it.

We'll never loose our mfg base, not as long as there are people who need to work for money. They'll just have to work harder for less, and if you want to hear my opinion, that's been a long time comin'.

Special interest groups get their hands into shows like these. I love to watch them too, but be careful just how much you're gonna swallow.


Here's where we agree (I'll use the analogy of the auto industry):

I live in the north, where the UAW (along with incompetent CEOs and other high level officers) have helped devastate the American Auto Industry, through greed, corruption, and short term thinking.

Now, I see that many foreign car companies are building plants in the southern states, where the union is non-existent, work ethic is high, and cost of labor is far, far lower.

That's bringing an artificial economic force, such as the union, which inflated prices, into equilibrium. It is sad in some ways, and pleasing in others - but fundamentally, it is a necessary if painful process if we are going to retain a domestic auto industry. Only this force can bring about wholesale change that wil improve the state of the domestics.

Here's where we disagree:

Nothing, absolutley nothing, provides any assurance that American will always have a significant manufacturing base. In an era where the world is flat, and technology transfers happen at light speed (so that a Chinese auto company can copy any vehcile design in a matter of months, without regard to patent, trademark, copyright or other intellectual property rights/laws), and companies can exploit the race to the wage bottom by shopping labor to the lowest cost wage pool, governmental intervention may be required to level playing fields, enforce IP rights/laws, and assure that technology transfers don't threaten national security interests.

Mack Trucks tried in the mid eighties to move to Winnsboro, SC in an effort to get away from unionized work. The union said no way, we're still with ya. After several years of trying, Mack Trucks moved back out of Winnsboro, leaving an empty shell behind and a whole lot of unemployed union workers. I just heard that some company wants to open it up again to manufacture

FIBERGLASS INSULATION

What a shame.

I did say they need to play fair, a lot of what you bring up is on that note and I agree totally! They gotta play fair, and of course, the governments need to see to that!

Can you give us some cliffnotes?
Here ya go: Video Cliffs Notes (http://www.jibjab.com/Movies/ClickThrough.aspx?contentid=122)

I refuse to set foot in a Walmart.

Man that's f'ed up. People in china get jobs and improve their standard of living while people here lose jobs and worsen their standard of living.

But it looks like this was inevitable. If not china, then southeast asia, africa, or south and central america. Not only wal-mart, but hundreds of companies going offshore with IT and manufacturing, incl. my own employer.

Maybe this is the new trend for highly industrialized nations like the US? How does it work in Europe? I know wal-mart has been struggling to penetrate that market for a while now.

Man that's f'ed up. People in china get jobs and improve their standard of living while people here lose jobs and worsen their standard of living.

But it looks like this was inevitable. If not china, then southeast asia, africa, or south and central america. Not only wal-mart, but hundreds of companies going offshore with IT and manufacturing, incl. my own employer.

Maybe this is the new trend for highly industrialized nations like the US? How does it work in Europe? I know wal-mart has been struggling to penetrate that market for a while now.

In addition to Walmart, Europe has Tesco, Aldi's and Asda.

Wal-marts of a different name.

Wal-mart used to struggle in Japan, too, but has been making huge penetration on the last several years.

High Quality, High Tech and High Risk is where the big bucks are at. If you can't or simply won't go there, don't expect the big bucks. The services industries still need warm bodies - the burger flippers and pizza deliverers. The industries that service the people with the afformentioned big bucks. Pick your place in life. For those who live in the good old USA and still insist that there should still be a place for them to live-out a risk-free corporate life, working thirty-five years in middle income level making fiberglass insulation, or working thirty-five years in upper-middle income level holding a no-responsibility union-protected position by torquing five particular screws in the chassis of a particular vehicle type on a particular final assembly line, dream-on. But don't come crying on my shoulder when something or somebody finally awakens your sorry ass. <directed at absolutely no one in particular>

Actually on the question of subsized Chinese companies. This is not entirely true. A lot of the small to medium size companies in China can't even get loans from the banks. A lot of those guys started with money borrowed from their family or friends. Yes it helps that you know some local official to get STARTED, but this practice is rapidly going away. First it doesn't guarantee sustainabilty because these local official no longer stay in their position very long. Secondly the rules has changed where it no longer necessary to get local government approval. In progressive provinces like Shanghai, this is definitely very true.

State Owned Enterprises (SOE) are definitely subsizied, but those are usually in Autos, Telecom, Biotech, Defense, Oil, and other critical areas. On the consumer products pretty side, it's pretty laissez-faire and cut throat. The reason why Walmart can get the prices they are getting from China is because there is so many manufacturers that are competing. More competitors equals a depression in prices. As an example, go to the clothing district in Shanghai and you can see about 100 stores competiting for Tailored clothing. That's 100 stores in an area about one city block! I can't imagine any one not competing on price in that situation.

BTW on another point, the rules has changed now that Foreign companies do not need to enter a joint venture with Chinese companies in areas that are not deemed critical. Even in banking, the Chinese government is allowing foreign companies to own controlling shares. Just last week, Citigroup purchases a 50% share in a state owned bank (Guangzhou Bank.) In larger banks, foreign companies are allowed to own up to 20%. Bank of America has 20% stake in one of the big four banks in China. This effective gives them a seat on the board and is the second largest shareholder outside of the Chinese government. More and more AMerican companies are entering China as wholly owned companies.

Did they also point out that the majority of their full time employees eligible for benefits don't take them and are actually paid so little they qualify for state Medicaid and do take that, along with food stamps in a lot of cases???? That's pretty sad considering the fact that when I was working part time and injured make ankle and was supposed to need surgery, I couldn't get emergency Medicaid for just the ankle surgery because I made $11 too much a year!!!! And these people are working fully time 40-hour weeks?!!!

Significant amount of illegal labor that they don't pay minimum wage to, and when confronted with lawsuits, their response is "They are illegal workers. Therefore, we don't have to pay them minimum wage, overtime, et cetera."

They are building a new store back on the East Coast somewhere and immigration came in and raided the construction site to round up all the illegals that were there working on it. A good chunk of the work force was taken away. Wal-Mar's response: "We didn't know they were illegal. It's not our fault."

For supposedly having cheap prices on stuff, they certainly don't here. I only end up there maybe once a year if there is something I really need and am having a hard time finding elsewhere. Well, my mom and I always walk around and look at stuff, mainly grocery wise, and let me tell you, their food in most cases costs more than at a regular grocery store here!!!!! This especially applies to sad looking produce. About a month ago we went there looking for some food item our regular grocery stores no longer carry (Wal-Mart didn't either). Well, we had been there approximately one year earlier and the prices have definitely gone up. For instance, this one type of juice I love that they no longer sell in this area except at Wal-Mart (according to the company I would have to go to the Midwest before I found any) cost $.57 last year. This year it now costs $1.27.

I think people are just brainwashed into believing Wal-Mart is cheaper than other stores because that's what they have heard said so much. In many cases, they aren't.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I make every effort to avoid shopping there for any reason, because I do not agree with their company practices, employment practices, et cetera, so I do not want to support their company.

I think people are just brainwashed into believing Wal-Mart is cheaper than other stores because that's what they have heard said so much. In many cases, they aren't.

I believe they call this "Marketing" in Business School :)

Click on the one called Big Box Mart. It's right on!!!

http://www.jibjab.com/Home.aspx

I don't shop there because I don't agree with their policies.

I don't shop there because I feel like I have to take a shower after walking around inside for 20 minutes.

I don't shop there because I can't stand watching parents beat their children.

No joke, when I clicked on it to watch it again, I got a pop-up telling me I had been selected to receive a $250 Wal-Mart gift card!!!!! LOL

Click on the one called Big Box Mart. It's right on!!!

http://www.jibjab.com/Home.aspx

I have to admit that this Jib-Jab summarizes my feelings on Wal-Mart as well as any political cartoon, ever.

Walmart is definitely the cheapest in the industry.

The power of Walmart is that they dictate the price for everyone else. If Walmart puts $2.49 for a box of soap then of course Target, Meier, and everyone else will follow with $2.49. So naturally it appears that they are not always the lowest price. The behind scene thing is that Walmart has a higher margin on items they sell than everyone else. I believe they can maintain a marigin about 20% while on similar items, everyone else maintains a margin of 8% to 10%.

Ask any P&G marketing guys and they will tell you that Walmart pretty much dictate their pricing.

I don't why anyone would be so hard on Walmart. The alternatives are not any better, especially Target. My wife works for a consumer products company that sells to both WALMART and TARGET. Trust me when I say TARGET is not any better. They ride their supplier just as hard, if not harder. On the whole, Walmart is much easier to deal with than Target. Target are run by "Jerks and A**Holes" as my wife would like to say. Walmart is disciplined and professional.

There was just a big article in the last two weeks about how Wal-Mart is losing market share to Target and how Target's sales are growing at nearly 6%, while Wal-Mart isn't quite hitting 3%. It went on to say how Wal-Mart sends in their employess three days a week to go in and write down all of Target's prices so they can announce a big sale and try to take business away from Target. However, it went on to say that Wal-Mart marked their prices down on some items so much just to take a share from Target that they actually lost money on them!!!!

Meanwhile, when I was in Wal-Mart, all the employees were either Mexicans or senior citizens. I figured since I was there I might as well ask if they had something I couldn't find at any other store (never did find and had to make one myself). I asked four different people. Not one of them spoke English and kept looking at me saying Que? Is it really that hard to have English-speaking people working at a store in America where people speak English!!!!! If we leave the country we are expected to at least figure out the language to get by, ask directions, stuff like that, and it's not like we are even trying to work in the other countries. The main exception to this rule is certain European countries because they are taught English for years in school. (My friends in Italy said you get eight years of English in school). Finally, highly annoyed, I asked in Spanish and they understood me and said they didn't know what kind of "thing" I was looking for.

I think this is a short-term slip. Target and Walmart have two different competitive advantages. Target tends to focus on design and specialty Target Items. Walmart is a price competitor. Target is definitely benefiting from the negative image Walmart is suffering in the US.

Walmart is still much larger than Target. One order from Walmart can easily be in the half million mark where as Target is around 100,000. Naturally Walmart has a volume discount on their purchases.

The way you defend Wal-Mart, I'd swear you were an employee!!! LOL

We have to remember that all big box retailers that you shop at contribute in what everybody is complaining about in the posts above. We all know their is negative and things we would like to see changed. We always hear about the negative about Walmart because they are the biggest and have a target painted on their back but their is a positive to them also. Look at:
www.walmartfacts.com
www.walmartfoundation.org
Here are a few positives:
"With more than 90 percent of its charitable giving targeted at local communities, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. has announced that for its fiscal year ending Jan. 31, 2005, cash donations through Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. and the Wal-Mart & SAM'S CLUB Foundation exceeded a record $170 million. "
"Largest corporate cash giving foundation in the U.S."
Walmart also gave over 20 million to hurricane releif this year.

Here is some interesting reading:
www.walmartfacts.com/doyouknow/default.aspx#a125

I know I will probably get flamed for posting the above but along with the negative their are good things to. Yes I agree their are a lot of things that need to change but as stated above its not just Walmart. The government could make some big changes here also!!

Well every company is in business to make money. Because the standard/cost of living in america is getting so high, alot of people can not afford to work at walmart and still survive. Walmart (and many other companies) can't pay people $20/hour to work and still turn a profit. So they set their wages according to the area, and the only people that will work for that cheap are immigrants that speak little english. The only way the US is going to reverse the trend to outsourcing overseas is to slap high tarrifs on imports (like the EU does) which will raise the cost of all these items (and something the most of the Gov is against since they are working so hard at setting up a fair world economy). Then companies can restart manufacturing jobs in the US to make the goods for the same price. Since I dont see that happening, we need to start dumping alot of money into education so the US can start a new "industrial revolution" in the high tech sector and lead the world that way (we are behind the curve already) so the lower jobs are still high paying by todays standards.

We have to remember that all big box retailers that you shop at contribute in what everybody is complaining about in the posts above. We all know their is negative and things we would like to see changed. We always hear about the negative about Walmart because they are the biggest and have a target painted on their back but their is a positive to them also. Look at:
www.walmartfacts.com
www.walmartfoundation.org
Here are a few positives:
"With more than 90 percent of its charitable giving targeted at local communities, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. has announced that for its fiscal year ending Jan. 31, 2005, cash donations through Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. and the Wal-Mart & SAM'S CLUB Foundation exceeded a record $170 million. "
"Largest corporate cash giving foundation in the U.S."
Walmart also gave over 20 million to hurricane releif this year.

Here is some interesting reading:
www.walmartfacts.com/doyouknow/default.aspx#a125

Wal-Mart sold 450 billion in merchandise last year. So, I would think 20 million is the bare minimum they could do.

You just have to love how Wal-Mart flies that American Flag high and proud, while it imports 80% of its items from the slave wage labor market of China, forces former American suppliers to move their production overseas (watch the doumentary), and beats back any attempt at legislation to reduce illegal immigration.

Go Wal-Mart!

Other Wal-Mart facts:

(Just one exerpt) - Wal-Mart can afford wage increases

* Wal-Mart can cover the cost of a dollar an hour wage increase by raising prices a half penny per dollar. For instance, a $2.00 pair of socks would then cost $2.01. This minimal increase would annually add up to $1,800 for each employee. [Analysis of Wal-Mart Annual Report 2005]

OTHER WAL-MART FACTS (http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/facts/)

. . . I just see the middle class going away in the coming years because of this. This entire change to the world economy is going to be a problem for all the countries that enjoy a higher standard of living until virually all countries enjoy the same standard. It is basically a balancing out, and unfortunately for the US, it is going to hurt. Places like Inda and China are going to benefit. Personally I hate Walmart and never shop there. The same union vs walmart crap is going on in colorado with grocery stores. With all the superwalmarts going up with cheaper groceries, the safeways, kingsoopers, albertsons are not able to compete and turn a profit, the unions cause strikes (causing the grocers to lose more money) and the only one to benefit is walmart. I got in an argument with a picketer a couple years ago cause I walked across the picket line into the store, I just said "would you rather me start going to walmart, cause you will lose your job for sure then!"

:edit: i still have to read the cliff notes, and try to watch the video though, I am basing my info on an article a read a couple years ago in Time magazine

The problem I have with Wal-Mart is the extent to which they push things.

When will it ever be profitable enough?

What market share is enough?

Do they have to really force most local retailers within a 5 square mile radius out of business?

When will the Walton family be powerful enough?

When will overseas labor be cheap enough? Is the current 100 dollars per month low enough?

When will living standards be low enough?

Why is Wal-Mart so endlessly ruthless towards its suppliers, employees and competitors?

Is there such a thing as moderation with Wal-Mart? Or balanced growth? Or corporate responsibility to anyone besides shareholders?

Does Wal-Mart appreciate human dignity?

Why can't we grow and respond to some RX8 threads this fast. I am running out of RX8 material to read and am resorting to the lounge!!

Actually I am not a Walmart employee, I work for a medical device manufacturer. I don't like the fact that Walmart is being singled out when the alternatives, like Target is no better. Guess what guys, Target BUYS FROM CHINA TOO!!!!!! And at rock bottom prices! How do I know because my wife works for a US companies that supplier both Walmart and Target.

BTW on the issue of wages in China. I went to China in September 2005 for a business school trip. I had a Chinese breakfast, very filling, that consisted of four pork buns and hot soybean milk. It cost me a grand total of 4RMB or $0.50!! That right it cost me two quarters for a big breakfast. You can argue all you want about slave wages, but the truth is their living costs are pretty low too. Besides if you really want to raise wages in China for UNSKILLEDlabor, you better pray for a huge population decrease. With 800 million peasant farmers, market pressures will always force the wages low unless, of course, someone proposes a socialist measure like minimum wage guarantees. And even with a minimum wage, it will not be at the level of the US or Mexico for that matter.

Also the SKILLED LABOR wages in China are actually on the rise. People in positions like CNC machinist, tool makers, etc. will jump companies to get higher wages. There is actually a skilled larbor shortage in China.

Does Wal-Mart appreciate human dignity?

I'm pretty cynical....give me an example of a company that treats it's employee with dignity? No one points a gun at anyone's head to work at Walmart. You either want the job or you advance yourself to get a better position. NO ONE force anyone to work at Walmart.

I'm pretty cynical....give me an example of a company that treats it's employee with dignity? No one points a gun at anyone's head to work at Walmart. You either want the job or you advance yourself to get a better position. NO ONE force anyone to work at Walmart.

I agree 110%. I think horror stories about walmart should encourage people to start going after professional degrees and enter the skilled labor market. God knows this country needs engineers, nurses, etc.

I agree 110%. I think horror stories about walmart should encourage people to start going after professional degrees and enter the skilled labor market. God knows this country needs engineers, nurses, etc.

Especially nurses. There is such a nursing shortage that we are allowing Filipino nurses into this country. God love them because with an aging population we need good nurses to maintain a high level of care. Otherwise I don't see how we can justify the expensive health care system that we have today.

Please noone go into Law. We already have enough lawyers! We are even shipping them out to China to help them build a legal system. The Chinese are starting to take after us and sue anyone, even the government, for the slightest infraction.

I'm pretty cynical....give me an example of a company that treats it's employee with dignity? No one points a gun at anyone's head to work at Walmart. You either want the job or you advance yourself to get a better position. NO ONE force anyone to work at Walmart.

General Electric, Motorolla, Honeywell, Pulte Homes, American Honda, Daimler-Chrysler, General Dynamics, Siemens, Bosch....

...and here's a retailer with low, low prices, that treats its employees well: Costco.

They are out there. And many are segment leaders.

General Electric

meh. they are ok. not as good as they should be.

meh. they are ok. not as good as they should be.

lmao.

You didn't appreciate your bonus?

GE?! With their perform to the highest level or be sold off. Be in the C grade two years straight and you get canned. Some my GE friends are actively seeking to get out of there.

American Honda? My friend design the braking systems for the Acura TL in Marysville, OH. No much room to expand beyond braking systems, since they basically box you into a specialty.

I can't speak for the rest, since I don't have first or second hand knowledge of those places. However, scratch deep enough and some dirt will always come out.

Beside I wonder what your definition of "dignity" is? All Western companies lay-off workers while their CEO makes millions in salary and stock options. A 50% cut in their salaries will equal to saving a lot of jobs. All companies chase after profit, and hire workers at the lowest price the marketplace will allow. How is this any different than Walmart?

I love Costco!!! Average employee wages in the high teens, more productive per employee than a Wal-Mart. There was a great comparison in the Oregonian within the last month comparing Costco and Sam's Club. You know who gets my vote out of that.

I think there is a significant health care provider shortage. I do medical transcription and I had to take a 20% pay cut recently because people can't afford to pay their medical bills to the hospitals can't pay as much for my services (allegedly). The majority of my doctors are all of Middle Eastern descent and I swear I want to cry when I get some of them. I don't think they can speak English!!! So, what are they doing dictated reports that we have to fill out when the reports are more blanks than words????

I was going to go to medical school but my family couldn't afford it, weren't enough scholarships and grants to cover it, plus had a bankrupt father and nonworking mother so no one would cosign loans for me. Just out of luck there. So, two years ago I got into a government program that would pay 75% of your medical schools costs up to $30,000 per year. I was supposed to start medical school in the fall of 2006. Well, last spring I received a letter telling me that the program had been axed in the governments rounds of "screw the needy people" cuts. So much for that one. Meanwhile, all the interests rates and minimum payments on my bills are skyrocketing over teh last year, I now work nearly 80 hours a week to cover all my expenses and it is still a struggle, especially since the 20% pay cut. And I live at home still!!!!! I don't have a minimum wage job either!!!

Meanwhile, since around the end of November, my work has been so low in around 14 different hospitals/clinics that I can't harly meet my minimum company requirment, let alone the 18,000 lines on top of that I need to sufficiently cover things.

It's just ridiculous. And my stepdad gets laid off all the time now because none of the companies seem to be able to keep him in work as a piping designer. He designs plants for Intel, gas pipe lines, stuff like that.

When he gets laid off I then have to help them out and pay extra to them, which I have never gotten back (not that I should complain, rent is only $150) because they have to catch up on bills. And they when they do get caught up he gets laid off again and it starts all over again. This all started happing in summer 2002 and he spends more time laid off than he does working now. But, any job he could get in teh meantime when he is laid off is less than his unemployment pays, so he is better off just sitting!!!!

It's really sad when the economy is so messed up like that.

lmao.

You didn't appreciate your bonus?

No its not that. The money is fine, it's the pressure/stress.

No its not that. The money is fine, it's the pressure/stress.

Same reason my friends cite for wanting to leave GE. It seem it's hard to maintain a good balance with a young family and work.

It's really sad when the economy is so messed up like that.

My family and my extended family has not been affected by the economy as far job security is concerned. Maybe because they are all professional engineers?

Oh, is the economy in trouble? Hmmm. What's the unemployment rate? How's the dow doing?

I agree 110%. I think horror stories about walmart should encourage people to start going after professional degrees and enter the skilled labor market. God knows this country needs engineers, nurses, etc.Bingo! Give that man a cigar!

Oh, is the economy in trouble? Hmmm. What's the unemployment rate? How's the dow doing?

If you believe the official numbers on unemployment, believe that real wage growth in the U.S. has even kept pace with inflation, or think now is a great time to invest in equities, I have some wonderful real estate I'd love for you to take a look at.

Gee thanks, but, I just invested a little in Myrtle Beach. Let me lick my wounds a little. Seriously, I don't see any short term problems with the economy. You do. Whatever...

Do you see long term problems?

Well I watched the special. Walmart has done some good things. Their model for streamlining their entire logistics area was fantastic. If they would have just stayed as walmarts, and not gone to sam's clubs and supercenters and automotive centers things would have been fine. The problem is they are creating (or have created) a monopoly while at the same time opening up a huge door for imports. The fact that they can dictate what manufacturers make is not as bad as them dictating the prices at which manufactures sell the products. It is healthy to do one or the other, not both. There really is not much anyone can do about it (unless they were extremely motivated and had a huge financial backing) cause it is a viscous circle. Remember "company stores" back in the 1800's mining rush? You worked for the company to pay for the products you buy from it . . . that is what the JibJab video reminds me of haha.

I dont see any short term problems with the economy, and there is potential to be severe long term problems, but there are ways to avoid them as well.

Wal-Mart typically sells items at below-market-average. In the long run, this causes consumers to expect to pay less, forcing competitors to lower prices and therefore decreasing profit margins for both retailers and manufacturers. With less profit, companies are less likely to expand and more likely to reduce wages, cut jobs and outsource, hurting the US economy.

Let's see, the unemployment is low because so many people got laid off, ran out of unemployment, and no longer count on the lists of unemployed. Some people were finding work as self employed independent contractors. They don't get unemployment benefits. When they have no work no one counts it. A good chunk of the jobs being added are low wage jobs in range of about $10 an hour in most cases. The deficit is skyrocketing, the taxes being paid in is dropping, social programs are getting massive cuts (food stamps, Medicaid for pregnant women, child support enforcement, child care assistance, et cetera, federal student loan and grant programs). The war is eating up billions every month.

On the topic of cutting food stamps and Medicaid, guess what is being restored to funding???? Viagra and other sexual dysfunction drugs because some lawmaker (Rep. Bill Thomas, R-California) had a fit that if that didn't happen we would be breaking a promise made to drug companies. Therefore, it was written back into the budget bill.

What do you think should be more important, helping feed low-income children, or sex for aged men with floppy, broken parts????

The Dow hasn't changed a whole lot in the last five years. In fact, several companies that used to be on the Dow (a large steel company for one) were removed from the list and replaced by other companies when their values got below a certain level. If they didn't remove and replace companies for the Dow, it would be looking a whole lot worse.

The middle class is shrinking, more and more people can't afford health care or insurance. The average net "real income" is going down steadily in the last few years (that is how they measure what people are able to afford to pay for stuff with their incomes), and wages are stagnating and/or decreasing. Housing costs are significantly increasing.

Yep. Everything looks real rosy around here!!!!

I also should mention that job growth is not really keeping up with the amount of new workers looking to enter the work force because of population, completing school, and all that stuff. Another reason the unemployment looks low: A lot of people just can't enter the market to start with to be counted when they are out.

Let's see, the unemployment is low because so many people got laid off, ran out of unemployment, and no longer count on the lists of unemployed. Some people were finding work as self employed independent contractors. They don't get unemployment benefits. When they have no work no one counts it. A good chunk of the jobs being added are low wage jobs in range of about $10 an hour in most cases. The deficit is skyrocketing, the taxes being paid in is dropping, social programs are getting massive cuts (food stamps, Medicaid for pregnant women, child support enforcement, child care assistance, et cetera, federal student loan and grant programs). The war is eating up billions every month.

On the topic of cutting food stamps and Medicaid, guess what is being restored to funding???? Viagra and other sexual dysfunction drugs because some lawmaker (Rep. Bill Thomas, R-California) had a fit that if that didn't happen we would be breaking a promise made to drug companies. Therefore, it was written back into the budget bill.

What do you think should be more important, helping feed low-income children, or sex for aged men with floppy, broken parts????

The Dow hasn't changed a whole lot in the last five years. In fact, several companies that used to be on the Dow (a large steel company for one) were removed from the list and replaced by other companies when their values got below a certain level. If they didn't remove and replace companies for the Dow, it would be looking a whole lot worse.

The middle class is shrinking, more and more people can't afford health care or insurance. The average net "real income" is going down steadily in the last few years (that is how they measure what people are able to afford to pay for stuff with their incomes), and wages are stagnating and/or decreasing. Housing costs are significantly increasing.

Yep. Everything looks real rosy around here!!!!

I also should mention that job growth is not really keeping up with the amount of new workers looking to enter the work force because of population, completing school, and all that stuff. Another reason the unemployment looks low: A lot of people just can't enter the market to start with to be counted when they are out.

Although I've done quite well the last several years, I couldn't agree with you more, BG.

I am not just concerned with my own economic welfare; I want to see all my fellow Americans do well.

The last year I've been doing pretty good, mainly because I've been working like crazy. Just recently got a 20% pay cut, though, so I am readjusting my budget and work production to pay for my car, which, fortunately is just basically replacing another bill I got rid of in October. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to afford an extra expense right now.

Anyone got statistics/graphs on exactly which industries are cutting jobs? Puts things into better perspective...

The Dow hasn't changed a whole lot in the last five years. In fact, several companies that used to be on the Dow (a large steel company for one) were removed from the list and replaced by other companies when their values got below a certain level. If they didn't remove and replace companies for the Dow, it would be looking a whole lot worse.

Actually, the Dow has recovered remarkably over the last 5 years. IIRC, the Dow dipped to the 7000s after the crash. Now its near 11000, it has recovered quite well. The crash really affected the Nasdaq, which got prety worthless. Recovery of the DJIA is far better than what nearly all analysts initially predicted. The economy has also shown constant growth 3-4%, yet again beating anaylysts. The economy is looking great right now, but as others have mentioned, there are many problems in the long term.

I just read an article that showed the Dow ended with negative growth for 2005.

The Dow still hasn't recovered from the tumble it took in 1999.

NASDAQ is less than half of its highest level.

From the 'Illinois Labor Market Review':

The United States has lost 2,867,000 manufacturing jobs from August of 1999 to August of 2004. That is a 16.6% decrease in manufacturing employment in the U.S. according to CES numbers.

http://lmi.ides.state.il.us/lmr/winter_2004/images/dave_table_2.gif



LINK TO ARTICLE (http://lmi.ides.state.il.us/lmr/winter_2004/Econ_ex_bieneman.htm)

Beat me to it! I am looking for the chart or table that shows the year end closing levels of the Dow for the last five years, if I can.

Anyone got statistics/graphs on exactly which industries are cutting jobs? Puts things into better perspective...

See the chart above.

I'm trying to find the stats for 2005, but I'm pretty confident that manufacturing bled even more in that year.

And, I think the worst is yet to come for U.S. manufacturing.

People don't realize that for all of the announced job cuts by U.S. automakers and suppliers, very few layoffs have yet to occur.

Yeah, they go into 2008 and even 2009, same with for a lot of other companies. Also, since the housing marking is cooling off in most places around the country, think of the thousands of jobs to be lost then. I was just hearing a news story about how a significant job growth is related to construction right now or construction/home-related industries/suppliers.

Beat me to it! I am looking for the chart or table that shows the year end closing levels of the Dow for the last five years, if I can.


Dow and NASDAQ 5 Year Graph:



http://data.moneycentral.msn.com/scripts/chrtsrv.dll?Symbol=%24INDU&C1=0&C2=3&C5=1&C6=2006&C7=1&C8=2006&C9=2&CA=1&CC=1&CE=0&D3=0&D4=1&D5=0&EFR=236&EFG=246&EFB=254&E1=0

Yep. There it is!

However, it went on to say that Wal-Mart marked their prices down on some items so much just to take a share from Target that they actually lost money on them!!!!



loss leaders- they do it all the time.

People don't realize that for all of the announced job cuts by U.S. automakers and suppliers, very few layoffs have yet to occur.


the media reports it as if they are cutting all the jobs TODAY. everyone got their pink slips TODAY. if they mention at all that the cuts come over 5 years with half coming from attrition they say it real quick at teh end and most peopel miss it.

Good article.

http://lmi.ides.state.il.us/lmr/winter_2004/images/dave_table_1.gif

It looks like only manufacturing is in big trouble from what this study says, everything else is relatively stable or increasing.

Oh, first off, you have to take anything the media puts out with a grain of salt, they are in it for shock factor and ratings. Second, statistics can be made to say anything, we have lost 16% in manufacturing jobs, but we increased in other areas. From your graph, it looks as though the Dow is righting the ship, unless I am missing something. Don't get me wrong, I am definatly not defending walmart, I hate that place, and there definately improvements to be made with this "landmark agreement" with china. But unless you can see the whole picture, which none can, there is not enough info here.

So RotoRocket (can I all you RocketMan? :D: ) Should we stop shopping there then? I would love to join a boycot of Walmart just to see if the moral / fiscal / national defense / (fill-in the blank if I missed some) / equality for Panda Bears / feminazi (oh, I'm sure they would have something to say here) / national right movement nationwide could make a dent in Walmart's billion dollar armor. I already know that none of this banter means jack insofarasto make a darn in the national anything.

As to these charts and stuff, looks like some kind of high school project. Interesting, kind of. Y'all keep it up. Let me know when I need to really start worrying, k?

I hate shopping at Walmart too, but I go there about twice a month for toothpaste 'n' toilet paper 'n' various 'n' assorted sundry items. People shopping there just seem so pissed off all the time for no reason. What's up with that? So yeah, I've found much better pricing at Dollar General lately. Whatever...

I'm not about to tell people where to shop. That's there own private decision.

I'm just observing how some of these events in retailing and manufacturing are having adverse, long-term consequences on the economic foundation of the United States, even if they're bringing some of the merchandise price points down.

The stats are coming from the illinois state website. If any of you cared to click on the link, you would know that.

I think it's silly to boycot Wal-mart while still shopping at all the other stores. Wal-mart owns j00!

The stats are coming from the illinois state website. If any of you cared to click on the link, you would know that.Didn't have to, it was quite obvious for those of us who cared enough to peruse the chart info. btw, did you notice the national boom in liesure & hospitality? We're all gonna loose our jobs, but we're gonna have a blast while we're unemployed! :lol2:

I think it's silly to boycot Wal-mart while still shopping at all the other stores. Wal-mart owns j00!Ah, common. You're no fun at all.

it just went off PBS here... my brother and sister in law refuse to shop there.... i dont think its very good for america but i still shop there.. id rather get things there then from department stores....