I just recieved a RB swaybar, as well as the RB end links. Here is my question - I know that we have talked a bit about end links in the past, should I even need to use the RB endlinks? Will my stock end links handle the bigger swaybar? I am leaning toward trying it out with the stock end links, I could always take it off to drill and install the new ones if need be. Than you in advance for your thoughts.

I guess while I am down there I should go ahead and take the rear shocks off and put them all the way stiff. Since I put them on at around 50/50 the first(oh wait second) time. :hahano:

use the RB endlinks!

I speak from experience last year with the RB front bar. I lost my stock endlinks midseason, which I attribute to autox'ing the car on r-compounds, and partly to my (imperfect) driving style, which has been hard on the front end. I am on my second set of stock endlinks, but they seem to be doing well. I suspect if you do not drive in such a style on r-compounds in competition, you may never have a problem. One warning though, the RB endlinks require some drilling to install. The RB endlinks are basically a bigger version of the stock units by something like 2mm with a bigger bolt. There are also some race suppliers with a completely solid endlink with no bushings and these units are expensive.

I just recieved a RB swaybar, as well as the RB end links. Here is my question - I know that we have talked a bit about end links in the past, should I even need to use the RB endlinks? Will my stock end links handle the bigger swaybar? I am leaning toward trying it out with the stock end links, I could always take it off to drill and install the new ones if need be. Than you in advance for your thoughts.

I guess while I am down there I should go ahead and take the rear shocks off and put them all the way stiff. Since I put them on at around 50/50 the first(oh wait second) time. :hahano:

Not only should you not use the endlinks you should not use that bar. imho It is way to big.

Not only should you not use the endlinks you should not use that bar. imho It is way to big.If you are wanting to run scca autox in stock class, I concur. I had that bar in 2004, and I fought the car pushing all year (altho I was on street tires then). But I had an rx7 driver, a miata driver, and a rotafire driver all tell me the same thing, the bar is too big for the car without using the rear bar as well.

you'll have to run a lot less rear camber, the rear shocks won't have much effect because they are only transitional, but in the end it will be too stiff for a stock setup for all but very low grip surfaces, had you asked ...

I agree with the recommendation for less rear camber. I ran my rears at -1.5 and I would have took less. I typically ran my rears between 48-55! psi to tune the balance of the car. I may go below equal on the rears next year if I keep the RB bar on (ie. less negative than -1.1, which is what I have on the front).

I don't think the RB bar has the kiss of death in b-stock that some people think it does. Its been proven at least once that the RB bar was faster in a particular situation.

My wife got it for me for Christmas... She heard me talking about a front swaybar to my friends that race miatas and subarus. They told her to get the RB bar. Most of the miata guys have the RB setup(front AND rear). They are not running in a stock class though. I hadn't decided on a bar yet, in fact not looked too hard at all. I have to give it up for my wife though, she is thinking the right way. :)

I ran the RB bar and stock endlinks for a year and a half, probably 25 events and 15k miles with no problems. Tires were 275 Hoosiers. Car was pretty good with the rear camber pulled in, but it would still push on exit when I was on the gas. The main thing the swaybar provided is that it keeps the car off the bumpstops with R rubber. Without it and stock shocks the car will sometimes hit the bumpstop and go into a terminal push.

That was up until I put the konis on. With the koni shocks and RB swaybar the push was horrible! Ran 1 event that way and ended up with the front shocks full soft and 1/2" of rear toeout to get the car to turn. Stock bar went back on immediately after that and the car was much better.

IMHO if you are going to put shocks on the car, return the swaybar. It's a waste. Otherwise, the swaybar will help if you want to run sticky rubber.

That was up until I put the konis on. With the koni shocks and RB swaybar the push was horrible! Ran 1 event that way and ended up with the front shocks full soft and 1/2" of rear toeout to get the car to turn. Stock bar went back on immediately after that and the car was much better.

IMHO if you are going to put shocks on the car, return the swaybar. It's a waste. Otherwise, the swaybar will help if you want to run sticky rubber.

That sums up my experience also to a T. Once the shocks went on, the bar was more a hinderance than a helper.

--kC

Thanks to everyone for the input. In our region, we race at a couple of "road type" courses. My guess would be use the stock bar.(for now) We also frequent an airstrip that is just constant transitioning up, a turn around, and constant transitioning back. Would it be wise to use this swaybar for the airstrip events? I could definitely be thinking about this the wrong way, but wouldn't a bigger bar do better on a purely transitional course

this thread makes teh baby jeezus cry ...

Thanks to everyone for the input. In our region, we race at a couple of "road type" courses. My guess would be use the stock bar.(for now) We also frequent an airstrip that is just constant transitioning up, a turn around, and constant transitioning back. Would it be wise to use this swaybar for the airstrip events? I could definitely be thinking about this the wrong way, but wouldn't a bigger bar do better on a purely transitional course

"Where will you lose the most time on couse?" is the only question that needs to be answered to determine if the swaybar should be upgraded. If it's mostly transitions, but with a couple sweepers that you can lose more time than you gained in the transitions, then it makes sense not to put the bar on.

You're not going to gain a heck of a lot of time in transitions with a bigger bar. Does it help? Sure... I'd be crazy not to admit that... but (this is where my results differ) not by the factor of having copious amount of push entering and exiting the few sweepers.

It's all a trade-off, IMHO. I'd rather lose a little time in the transitions and maintain control and predictability in the sweepers than gain a litte time in the transitions to lose more time in sweepers.

this thread makes teh baby jeezus cry ...because some are hawking copper as if it were gold? You stopped being impartial to this subject when you had a product for sale hawking it as the best thing since frankincense, gold and myrrh. So if baby jeezus is crying, he must have heard you where you're shoveling the shit out of the horses stall next to where he was born. :)

With the risk of a scathing sarcasm from Team, I shall ask the following:

Are all these comments directed towards BS autoX? If you have a stiff rear (bar), and adjustable coilovers (http:///#), is the above whining about the front bar irrelevant? IMHO, switching out the front and rear bar on stock boingy bits was a night-to-day transition. Any understeer or oversteer could be dialed out with +/- a few pounds of tire pressure (http:///#). This set up was great at speed and really opened up the throttle off/nose in tendencies of the car (which I found lacking at stock). Roll became a non-issue, while the stock tires (http:///#) were still communicative at the limit (this may change to the worse with stickier tires). I ask because I theorize that upgrading to Jic flt or tein flex should complement this current behaviour (with proper and constant dial in.) Am I off base? To reiterate, I am asking if the above comments are directed to cars (http:///#) sans rear bar, eg. cars in b-stock.

Yes we are talking about BS front bar only cars... If you are not in BS and you have the rear bar to go with it I am sure you will be very happy with the RB bars.

With the risk of a scathing sarcasm from Team, I shall ask the following:

Are all these comments directed towards BS autoX? If you have a stiff rear (bar), and adjustable coilovers (http:///#), is the above whining about the front bar irrelevant? IMHO, switching out the front and rear bar on stock boingy bits was a night-to-day transition. Any understeer or oversteer could be dialed out with +/- a few pounds of tire pressure (http:///#). This set up was great at speed and really opened up the throttle off/nose in tendencies of the car (which I found lacking at stock). Roll became a non-issue, while the stock tires (http:///#) were still communicative at the limit (this may change to the worse with stickier tires). I ask because I theorize that upgrading to Jic flt or tein flex should complement this current behaviour (with proper and constant dial in.) Am I off base? To reiterate, I am asking if the above comments are directed to cars (http:///#) sans rear bar, eg. cars in b-stock.

I'm not trying to argue that it is "the" swaybar, I was trying to see if I should sell it or not. If there is a good application for a huge front bar, I will keep it around for a while.

Yes we are talking about BS front bar only cars (#)... If you are not in BS and you have the rear bar to go with it I am sure you will be very happy with the RB bars.My apologies. It was not completely clear to me even after reading this thread for several days. I dont have any direct experience with front bar on only, but I would think that the tendency to push would be intolerable.

Sorry for being unclear. I have a tendancy to do that.

I got the rb bar for Christmas too, it really wasn't the bar that I was thinking about buying, but I figure I will give it a try. I guess we will see.


Question: In nationals did any of the guys in the top 10 run this bar?

I know ULLLOSE runs the mazdaspeed, but I don't know about the rest of the guys, Anyone else know?

Thanks

Ronnie

I got the rb bar for Christmas too, it really wasn't the bar that I was thinking about buying, but I figure I will give it a try. I guess we will see.


Question: In nationals did any of the guys in the top 10 run this bar?

I know ULLLOSE runs the mazdaspeed, but I don't know about the rest of the guys, Anyone else know?

Thanks

Ronnie

Yes 5th and 6th place ran the RB front bar... They ere 1st and 2nd the first day.

How did the course differ on the first day?

Ronnie

How did the course differ one the first day?

Ronnie

http://maepro.uta.edu/fsae/news/05solo2natl.html

There are a couple of scans of it. The north course was changed before we ran it. They took the area near flag #4 and made a 90' right, cut off the other 180 sweeper, making a short slalom to the last left turn and the finish.

We ran the north course first and it was still a bit damp from early rain. For the most part it was all trans and short turns. The one sweeper we had got killed as there was water before it so you had to slow down to make it. Also the finish turn was very wet.

The south course had a lot of sweepers and long turns.

Thanks for the info.

Just to clerify: The RB bar is too stiff for the long sweepers because it makes it push? , Is that where the smaller bars are better, because the car is more neutral?

Does the smaller bar make the car have more oversteer? For some reason I thought the bigger bar would make the car oversteer more.

Ronnie

Big front = more oversteer

So, why do the cars with the bigger front bars not do as well in the sweepers?

Ronnie

Big front = more oversteer


:mdrmed: :mdrmed: :mdrmed:
You keep thinking that.

Big front = more oversteer

The Tornado really works!

Yes 5th and 6th place ran the RB front bar... They ere 1st and 2nd the first day.

:mad: Thanks for reminding me... :mad:

All I want is one for Christmas is one shot at the South course with a smaller front bar... :banghead:

So is this true- for a more technical course, the bigger bar would be better, but if there are alot of sweepers and high speed turns , then the smaller bar is better?

Ronnie

GAH! What misinformation is spreading here...

-this thread is specifically about running in B-stock, and assumes competitive racing on autox courses on r-compound tires, maybe with aftermarket shocks.

-you can't run a rear bar in BS

-the RB bar is about 208% stiffer than stock. I think the MS bar is something like 30% stiffer.

-sway bars add to the spring rate when the suspension components are in opposite movement. When the left a-arms move up, and the right a-arms move down, the sway bar is adding to the spring rate on the compressed side. This is something of an over-simplification, but its good enough.

-in transitional situations, slaloms and the like, the sway bar helps

-in sweepers, the swaybar couples the wheels together, which can unload or upset the tires when a bumb is encountered on one side. Once this happens, some traction can be lost.

-the fact that the guys on the RB bar were 1-2 after day one of Nat'l should say that the RB is not uncompetitive. Is it the best setup? That's still debatable, as we've only run these cars for 1 year of solo2.

-most handling problems can be solved by changing your driving style. The RB front bar requires less trailbraking and much more careful speed control when entering turns to avoid tragic push.

-a bigger front bar will increase the tendency of the car to understeer, especially in sweepers.

-all parts of the setup must be looked at in whole. The RB bar, in combinations with tire pressures, shock valving, and alignment may result in a very fast setup. Or not.

Surprises me that the RB bar would be that fast at nationals. All I can relate is my experience with this setup. Again, this only applies with the konis. On stock shocks I liked the bar.

With the RB bar installed I couldn't get on the gas exiting turns until way later than I liked. The bar requires massive trailbraking to set up a line through a turn unless you want to give up both turn entry and exit.

On slaloms and transitions, the inability to rotate the car made it very difficult to stay ahead and execute good late apexes. Too much gas and the car would push beyond the apex getting you behind for the next one.

On the stock bar (with additional hole drilled) the car is loose but fast. Coming from a miata, this surprised me. I was able to be much more aggressive without the rear end coming around. A miata set up this way would be spin city, but not the RX-8.

Overall, I really can't imagine a course where I would want to run this bar. I hate to say it, but the fact for me that the car is no fun to drive with it installed is 2 strikes against it regardless of times. A car that refuses to rotate is no fun. :mad:

The bar requires massive trailbraking to set up a line through a turn unless you want to give up both turn entry and exit.


Exact opposite of what I found. When I switched to the RB bar, I couldn't trail brake at all. I know at least a couple other people have said the same thing.


On the stock bar (with additional hole drilled) the car is loose but fast. Coming from a miata, this surprised me. I was able to be much more aggressive without the rear end coming around. A miata set up this way would be spin city, but not the RX-8.


You may want to check your alignment. The stock suspension setup has mild understeer in the dry.


Overall, I really can't imagine a course where I would want to run this bar. I hate to say it, but the fact for me that the car is no fun to drive with it installed is 2 strikes against it regardless of times. A car that refuses to rotate is no fun. :mad:


I agree that a loose car is more fun. But we all know that sideways isn't the fast way around. There are a lot of fast cars out there that run a setup biased towards understeer. There are advantages either way, but one is not always faster than the other.

Exact opposite of what I found. When I switched to the RB bar, I couldn't trail brake at all. I know at least a couple other people have said the same thing.

I don't understand what you're saying. Was the car so stiff up front you couldn't get it to rotate with trailbrake? or something else. When I said "massive trailbrake" that's what I meant. You really had to unload the rear to get any rotation at all.

And yes, I understand the difference between loose and fast. That's why I said loose AND fast.

The car is loose off the gas and neutral under power because I like it that way. Yes I could get mild understeer if I wanted but I don't because this car doesn't need it to keep the nose pointed in the right direction.

Yup, couldn't get it to rotate. Trying to trail-brake usually just led to understeer with the RB bar, where I did not have that problem with the stock bar. My slalom and transitional speeds went up some w/ the RB bar over the stock bar. I should mention that I ran on Dunlop SSR's 225 (because they are cheap), not the requisite Kuhmos/Hoosiers. Almost neutral handling came at 44 psi front, 52+ rear!

GAH!

-the fact that the guys on the RB bar were 1-2 after day one of Nat'l should say that the RB is not uncompetitive. Is it the best setup? That's still debatable, as we've only run these cars for 1 year of solo2.


I dont think there is much to debate.... The north course was the best case for a transition course as one sweeper was removed before we ran it and the other had a wet entry. The rest of the course was very dirty and it was also very cool. Anyone with a loose car was playing pitch and catch at every turn, a tight car was the way to go, guys that took chances were near the top. Both Eric and Phillip did a great job to take the top spots the first day.
However it is hard to argue that when the conditions were warm and dry and the course had a good balance of sweepers and slaloms the RB cars were over a second off the pace, I dont think Eric and Phillip forgot how to drive overnight, just a matter of that big bar killing them in the long turns. While cars with MS, OE and TRX8 swaybars were all within a tenth.

I didn't realize until this thread just how stiff the RB sway bars were - 208%. I don't think any of the others come close to that. Maybe the Tanabe?

I believe it, the stock bar is puny in comparision

Stock bar is 27mm(I think) and the RB is 32mm.

Stock bar is 27mm(I think) and the RB is 32mm.

That is right... It also has to do with how thick the wall of the bar is. RB is a thicker wall than OE.

Isn't the mazdaspeed bar 27mm , just like stock, but it has thicker walls. Making it just stiff enough for some needs.

Just out of curiosity, where is the best place to aquire a MS front bar? Most of the places that I have seen them for sale, it is a front and rear package.

I figured you could buy the mazdaspeed front sway from the www.mazdamotorsports.com site, but I just looked and didn't see it. Maybe you could send them an e-mail.

Ronnie

Isn't the mazdaspeed bar 27mm , just like stock, but it has thicker walls. Making it just stiff enough for some needs.

27.2 +.5mm thicker wall.... Makes it about 15% stiffer. Mazda Motorsports does sell it. Cost alot for such a small change. If I did not already have one I think I would just go for a drilled stock bar, almost as stiff.