I for one would like to gauge the level of concern about the dyno results that have been posted. I feel worried (if only for the reputation of the car).

I'm worried and hoping it's only an error in the ecu mapping. Or maybe the ECU is retardig the power until some set mile limit but that would mean that the car magazine mules did not have that limitation. Either way, this should be adressed and fixed if needed by Mazda before the speculation and rumours get out of hand.

not worried ....yet. don't have my own car yet to feel how it is, but would like to hear from mazda on the matter. i am slightly worried about the image of the car as those folks who hope for a return of the rx7 would be devastated if this car does not hold up well.

if you're actually concerned about power THAT much, modify.
it's nothing.

Originally posted by zoom44
i'm not worried ....yet

ditto

What is the reason that you are NOT worried though? Two cars have dynoed so far and reported about 180whp which by all accounts is 20-30 hp too low. Now it might be just those two cars.. we definitely need more dyno and 1/4 mile numbers.. but I'd feel a lot better if they dyno'ed at 200-205whp.

My concern is not for the actual bhp numbers. Even if Mazda came out tomorrow and said they made a mistake and change the rating to 210bhp for the 6MT, I would still take delivery. Hell my 328i only had 194bhp, loved it.

My concern is why is there a problem or is there a problem at all.

Is there a design defect or manufacturing defect. How will my emission be effected? Will it effect reliability?

Even though the database is very small and limited to US 6MT cars, the data is so far consistent which makes the question legitimate.

IF there is a problem, why and what is the cause and how will it effect other aspects, especially in the long term?

Maybe they sent us the European cars?? :p

It's a question of getting what we paid for surely? If this IS a problem rather than something that will go away then Mazda are selling a car under false pretences (I'm not saying that they ARE, I'm just explaining my concern). I signed up for the RX-8 with 240bhp, I was sorely annoyed when that went down to 227bhp (in the UK) and if it drops further because of some unspecified problem/con/limitation/whatever then the car I ordered would no longer exist. I bought a specification not a wish-list.

Likely as not this will be resolved long before any UK cars appear so I'm whistling in the dark but Mazda REALLY need to start talking on this one!

Originally posted by revhappy
Maybe they sent us the European cars?? :p

It would sure as heck explain where they went!!! ;)

Originally posted by wakeech
if you're actually concerned about power THAT much, modify.
it's nothing.
ditto
Concern for power has nothing to do with this situation. :confused:

Mazda advertises certain hp and performance numbers for this car. If I had this car already, I'd be expecting what was advertised and what I paid for. Simple. Never mind the relatively crappy fuel economy.. but if I'm gettting 16-18mpg I expect 247hp/mid 14's that were advertised and sold to me. shrug

I expect some official word from Mazda about this situation. After all, this (http://www.miata.net/news/power.html) came out last time Mazda was faced with a little matter of missing 13 hp.

Seems that missing >20 hp is something to be worried about.

Originally posted by Quick_lude

Concern for power has nothing to do with this situation. :confused:

Mazda advertises certain hp and performance numbers for this car. If I had this car already, I'd be expecting what was advertised and what I paid for. Simple. Never mind the relatively crappy fuel economy.. but if I'm gettting 16-18mpg I expect 247hp/mid 14's that were advertised and sold to me. shrug

concern for power has everything to do with it.
i'm with Romano, thinking that 200 hp (about double the current car i drive) is far more than sufficient to have a good time in the car.

now, i'm not saying that because they have thus far not come forward with any information or suggestions as to why the RENESIS is down on power that everything will rectify itself, heck no. if anything, complain, and make sure that they get their asses in gear.
because those who've bought the car bought whatever Mazda told them it is, and it isn't there ought to be compensation. what kind?? i don't know. maybe the car is fine and people are freaking out because of poor communication (gee, it'd the first time THAT's happened here :p), but maybe not. maybe they need to recall, or modify, or just give you money back... in the end, it will be rectified, which is why i say relax.

my comments were to those who're obsessively coveting every single last watt that comes out of those wheels, to whom i say "get a life" if their ego isn't properly augmented by the full 247 bhp: want Mazda to fix this, if it is indeed broke, for the right reasons.

patience is a virtue.

Originally posted by Quick_lude

Concern for power has nothing to do with this situation. :confused:

Mazda advertises certain hp and performance numbers for this car. If I had this car already, I'd be expecting what was advertised and what I paid for. Simple. Never mind the relatively crappy fuel economy.. but if I'm gettting 16-18mpg I expect 247hp/mid 14's that were advertised and sold to me. shrug

exactly Quick!

Wakeech, you're missing the point. If you go to MD's drivethrough and they give you a drink that's only half full, would you not go back and complain that you only got half your money's worth?
I don't care if the Renesis all of a sudden is making "only" 225 hp at the crank. What I do care about is being properly informed about it BEFORE I make my purchase.

About people relaxing here, did you see the hysteria before the car was delivered? :D

I'm sure Mazda will rectify this problem, if there is a problem, soon. But if I was a current owner I would be concerned and asking questions.

Like I said before my concern (if a problem exists) is what is the problem.

Is it just the wrong software or is it a more serious mechanical defect?

A bit off-topic:
Story about the power of the internet and what happens when an OEM doesn't take it seriously:

BMW has had a major problem with S54 engines, the engine in the current M3, with complete physical engine failure. It seems due to a poorly designed crank-shaft bearing.

First they ignored the problem, then claimed it was just a few cars and it was the drivers fault and the whole time owners and prospective owners where getting more and more concerned.

It started with a few owners on bimmer.org then more and more and more, it went from the internet to the mainstream media.

Finally BMW admitted a "possible" issue existed, but not the actual cause, and where forced to put a 10 year warranty on the S54 engine and agree to replace all the failed engines or buy back the cars.

M3 sales where hurt and many sold their M3's out of fear that once the news got out resale values would fall or that after 10 years and 1 day the engine would go booom.

Now with the RX-8 issue it's nothing as severe, but in the end it can hurt sales and rep of the RX-8.

These internet boards are not to be taken lightly, the mainstream automotive media and the OE should read these posts.


Mazda does not need a "BMW M3" on their hands. In other words owners and prospective owners wondering if there's a major defect with the engine.

Kinda related: one thing that has always troubled me is that none of the Mazda sites (or indeed any other vehicle manufacturer site that I've visited) has an email enquiry address. Try an online shop or a broadcaster (etc) all easy to contact but not Mazda. If they had an email address then this issue could be raised directly rather than getting out of hand because of no feedback.

rx8orders@mazdausa.com or 1-800-222-5500.

if you dial 1-800-555-2200 by mistake(as i did a couple of days ago) you get a very different sort of greeting on the other end:o ;)

im not worried at all. everyone just needs to calm down. dont get ur panties all wrapped up in a bunch.

there is no way mazda would make the same mistake they did with the miata, ABSOLUTLY NO WAY. these dynos prove absolutly NOTHING, 1 car had 600 miles and the other had 1000, it means nothing. when u put a couple thousand miles on then do a dyno, u will all see.

Originally posted by RomanoM
Hell my 328i only had 194bhp, loved it.


That was a different engine (low rpm torque/hp). A 210 HP rating for the Renesis would be a disaster imo. Cuz you will need to rev it up to 8500 rpm to get what? 210HP?

S2k gives 240 HP.

Originally posted by Quick_lude
I'm sure Mazda will rectify this problem, if there is a problem, soon. But if I was a current owner I would be concerned and asking questions.

that IS what i said, go back and make them fill your cup, and NO ICE, cheap b*tches... :mad:

;)

Originally posted by agisd
S2k gives 240 HP.

this is the kind of thing i was reffering to Quick.

I take it everyone has seen the 3rd dyno by compaddict at 2215 miles - same 178hp result, with following test conditions.

Run date 7-30-2003
2004 RX-8
6 Speed w/sport
DSC & Traction Control Off
35PSI tires (Cold)
95 degrees F
22% Humidity
2215 miles
Third gear pull
100 Ft. Elevation
Fourth and fifth gear runs were about one percent less (normal variances between runs).
I have over a hundred runs on this dyno with my other car and it seems about right with other Dynojets with comparable cars.

He also overlaid a dyno from a 255hp '94 RX-7 which got 208hp on the same dyno.

I know Mazda will fix this eventually, but they need to make a statement asap to calm things down before their reputation is besmirched forever.

I have done my part my calling a Mazda support person at 1-800-222-5500 (thanks Zoom44) and also my dealership to inform them of the low hp results - neither had heard anything about it and were keen to investigate immediately (both knew of rx8forum and will be checking here first btw). I suggest anyone else who is concerned should do the same asap.

gotcha now keech! glad we are all on the same page here. now pardon me i need to go bitch an whine about the missing side mirror lights which since i don't have my car yet are more important to me ;) :p :)

edit- no problem Pelucidor at least you called the right number:)

Fair enough--

Originally posted by agisd


That was a different engine (low rpm torque/hp). A 210 HP rating for the Renesis would be a disaster imo. Cuz you will need to rev it up to 8500 rpm to get what? 210HP?

S2k gives 240 HP.


But my point is, that the POSSIBLE power loss is the symptom.

I want to know what's the disease (again assuming an actual problem) and how easy is the cure?

I don't thing Mazda is quoting 247bhp for an engine that doesn't come close. I find it difficult to believe a nearly 30% drop from crank to wheel can not be explained by "engine tightness," I could buy 20%. Is that possible with a rotary???

And even with only 3 dyno runs the consistency of the runs doesn't prove anything, but it's enough to legitimately ask questions if not necessarily to come to any conclusion.


This leads me to believe that there may be an engineering concern, not just bad marketing. So, even if FOR ME the power is fine, I don't want an engine with defects no matter what the power rating.

If there is a mileage switch over in the ECU that's a perfectly legitimate item, but it should be well known to at least the dealer service managers and techs.

At best this is just poor communication, but at worst it can be an engine with a design defect. People have a right to ask at this point.

By the way I don't think you should go out and cancel your orders, I'm not, just ask the question.

Originally posted by RomanoM


If there is a mileage switch over in the ECU that's a perfectly legitimate item, but it should be well known to at least the dealer service managers and techs.



i thought i may have asked earlier but was any mention of this made in the tech highlights cd? i really need to burn that and watch it.

I agree that 3 tests with very similar results are enough reason to raise doubts and questions. The third set of results was on a car with enough mileage for it to be run in.

Mazda need to investigate and publish it's findings to stop this issue snowballing. They either thave to explain the results or disprove them.

I don't believe Mazda would release this car if the performance figures were so far below those punlished but it's difficult to see a logical explanation. :(

Sounds like the 160 HP Miata fiasco all over again. Maybe that's why the RX-8 got slaughtered in the Best Motoring comparison video.

well, have you guys seen this thread?
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?threadid=7936

sounds promising

GREAT....problmes already with the rx8...

I have to agree with Mr. Keech & Mr. Quiklude, there are actually three ways to look at the issue -

The optimist- 'the glass is half full',

The pessimist- 'no, the glass is half empty'

'Wully' from the Simpsons- 'where's the other half of my fookin drink?? Fill 'er up before I come over that bar an' glass yer, yer panty wearin' sasenach!'
.
.
.
doc

Not sure if this was mentioned but Ford had the same problem with the Mustang GT a few years ago. They did fix it but don't recall how. I'll search the web and see what's out there.
Anyone else recall?

BTW I am concerned and hope it gets resolved.

Edit: It was the 1999 Cobra

1999 Cobra Problems (http://www.fordvschevy.com/ford/1999cobra_problems.html)

I'm not worried - yet. It's only been a few days since the second dyno was done, and the third was yesterday. It takes a big company a little while to:
1. Hear about the problem
2. Get the real answer interanally
3. Figure out what to do about it (deny, explain, fess up, etc.)
4. Announce the response

I would think that there should be some sort of formal announcement, press release, or at least an official reply here and on rotarynews.com by Monday. The longer it takes the further it will spread, and the more it will damage the company.

I suspect that this is simply an issue with the ECU that's completely normal. If Mazda makes an announcement soon to that effect, I'll be fine. If the car is really down around 215-220 HP, which is what it appears, then I will be extremely disappointed. It will take a very, very long time before it blows over if they misrepresented the power output. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it severely hit RX-8 sales and even killed off the RX-7 development. In fact, even if it's normal and they don't come up with a decent explanation quickly it could severely hurt the company and the future of the rotary engine. I really hope that doesn't happen.

I don't see the big deal.... if the dyno is bad, okay...

But if the car still does the quarter in 14.5s and the dash to 60 in 5.9s... what the hell is the difference? By my hand timing I got right around 6 seconds on a dash to 60, so it's not too far off I think.

Research needs to be done on it sure, but you guys are really being number junkies. The people that have the car and are enjoying it are happy with the power (because it's not that bad), and thrilled with the *handling*. Isn't this what this car was about from the beginning anyway?

Everybody posting about the power can be concerned but for me.. I'm happy as I am and if there is a problem with a 'sticking port' as was before and it gets fixed.. additional power is just gravy. I'm not stoplight racing and the car is as fast as advertised, so who cares about dyno pulls?

*is confused*

The bid deal is not for you or me or others reasonably happy with performance. The big deal is for Mazda - they will have to restate power output, be rediculed by the vast majority of people on the web and in magazines, tarnish their image even more and probably be hit by many lawsuits for false advertising. If they offer to buy back the pre-order cars (as they did for the Miata) then that is a big expense (and black eye) for them. Then Ford will pull the plug on future rotary development as Mazda just couldn't get it right even after many quality control delays to US rollout, and there will be no more RX-7, no more high power RENESIS, no updates to the RX-8 etc. That's a big deal to everyone eventually.

I really hope the power loss is intentional, but then it would be documented somewhere within Mazda and probably should have been disclosed or 'accidentally' leaked out by now to allay everyones fears. If it's a simple ECU bug that can be fixed with a flash upgrade then that is not too bad, but still embarassing to have a recall on a car that was delayed over a month at port to make sure it was 'perfect'.

Herc -

I don't even own one, so I really don't care personally at all. I'm also not a numbers junkie, but I do care about this getting settled.

Most people buy car based on looks and HP figures. It's sad, but true. Very few people will choose to purchase a car based on how it handles. Most people don't even really know what good handling is. Even if they did want to buy a car based on handling, most wouldn't think of Mazda. You've seen the commercial that claims that the Cadillac handles better than some BMW, or the Pontiac commercials that claim that they bring "driving excitement", or whatever. I'd bet that most people actually think those things are true! :eek:

In addition, Mazda doesn't have a strong positive association with most people. Either they know of Mazda for the 4-banger 626 they rented, the cute little Miata (whose club racing and performance pedigree they know nothing about), or the unreliable RX-7s. Not a great image. Most of us know differently, but we're not the typical customer that Mazda's trying desperately to win over with the RX-8. To that market, a mis-statement of the HP of this newfangled engine that ain't go no cylinders is a confirmation that it's something to be avoided. If the RX-8 doesn't win over a significant number of people who otherwise wouldn't have given any Mazda product a second look, the RX-8 won't be a success, and the rotary will die. That would be a major blow to Mazda - one that could even signal the end of the company. Another problem would be that if Mazda overstated the HP numbers, all of the armchair car "experts" at the office will have further ammunition to blast the RX-8. Those people can have a significant impact on what cars non-enthusiasts purchase. The 350Z had and still has nothing but positive word of mouth from that contingent. If the RX-8 doesn't, it'll significantly hurt sales.

I'm intentionally overstating the case somewhat to make a point. But that's basically why I care, even though I'm not an owner. I want the new RX-7, and if this RX-8 isn't a success there won't be another RX-7.

Wow, this is a great post! I have an RX-8 on order, but I'm actually thinking of postponing the order until these issues have been resolved or even cancelling the order. This "problem" is quite serious because its affecting potential buyers like me. I, for one, expect to get what I pay for. Right now, I'm thinking that if I put down a couple thousand dollars more, I can get myself a G35.. a car that doesn't lie on their numbers, supposedly have better service and quality control. I guess I'll just wait and see...

hand timing I got right around 6 seconds on a dash to 60

Hey Hercules, congrats! As far as I can tell you are the first to claim 6 s in a 0-60! From what RPM did you launch at to get that kind of time? Did you even get out of 2nd? BTW what is your odometer reading these days?

I agree w/Herc. Beside IMO the RX8 looks better than the G35. I'm amazed at the design features and how the whole rotary theme is all over the car. Plus G35's don't come in red w/red&blk interiors. bad ass.

I think some who are concentrating on the numbers and saying they don't care, are missing the point.

If the car is missing 30bhp there must be a reason.

One of the possible reasons is a design or manufacturing defect.

Wouldn't you want to make sure that's not the problem?



Let me ask it this way:

Do you mind if you have an engine that's defective?

I just want to know what's going on, right now I just have questions not conclusions.


The reason I don't just dismiss this off-hand is that the number of recalls for all manufacturers have increased substantially in the past 5 years. And some have been biggies and inexplicable.


If BMW's M division can produce an engine with an obvious design defect and not catch it, anything is possible.

OK, here's the obvious question - doesn't Mazda offer the 247 HP RX-8 in Japan? If so, the JDM RX-8s have been out for quite a while now, haven't they?

If so, and if we haven't heard a big hue and cry from Japan yet, that would seem to indicate the "problem" is either break-in related or US emissions-related... :confused:

I'm gonna have to go with RomanoM on this one. The main issue here is whether or not this car was built with a serious design flaw. I dont know about you guys, but I don't want to have premature engine failure, or any of the associated risks involved in a product that was engineered to certain specs and then doesn't meet them in the production run. Maybe Mazda might have to step up to the plate here and eventually say something - if this was taken care of properly, quickly, and painlessly - I doubt any of us would mind, and it might not be such a big deal when it did (as opposed to the M3 disaster or the infamous 99 Cobra).

Come on Maz - work with us.

Can I just ask a dumb question here: aren't there different emissions standards for different states in the US? So would vehicles in different states have their engines mapped differently and maybe have different power outputs?

Originally posted by ChrisW
Can I just ask a dumb question here: aren't there different emissions standards for different states in the US? So would vehicles in different states have their engines mapped differently and maybe have different power outputs?

No, the cars are the same in the US/Canada. It's too expensive and unpractical to do you you're describing.

I buy the dyno results.

It seems to me that Mazda would like to offer a 247HP version of the car but due to emmisions tuning they could not do it. I dunno why they released 247HP specs. Maybe a couple of engines actually produced that horsepower.

I bet that the engine horsepower is similar to that of the euro-model (227HP).

Adding this issue to the availability problem, I am looking at other cars now...

The beginning of an answer:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=87997#post87997

Originally posted by rotarynews.com
I talked with Kelvin Hirashi, Director of R&D at Mazda about dynoing the RX-8 on a chassis dyno. He said don't do it until well after 1000-2000 miles have been put on the car, and the engine brakes in. . . "Said" is even the wrong word, he "implored" me to brake it in first...

So, get out and brake those engines in, and then retest them at, say, 5000 miles. Getting better - a few more details (does something change in the engine at X miles?) and I would be happy.

wow...5000 miles for the engine to peak in HP.

jeez...I don't know of any other manuf that requires that.


But I agree w/ Hercules statement. If the car runs the numbers it promised (1/4 and 0-60mph) then I would be satisfied.

Compared to say a Integra Type-R, which probably weighs less and has, I believe, slightly higher whp, the RX-8 would still be faster.

Originally posted by chikai
wow...5000 miles for the engine to peak in HP.




Actually 5,000 miles isn't that uncommon. German motors don't make full power until about then.

But, usually it's only a small difference between new and "seasoned" engines. Maybe an increase of 5%, so if new there's 200whp then after the break-in you'll get 210whp.

However, there was an Audi A4 3.0 CVT that did 0-60MPH in 7.2s new and 6.5s after 40,000 miles. Chances are there was something wrong with that engine that was rectified during a service visit. Those numbers would suggest nearly a 50bhp increase after 40,000 miles (not likely).

Originally posted by agisd
I buy the dyno results.

It seems to me that Mazda would like to offer a 247HP version of the car but due to emmisions tuning they could not do it. I dunno why they released 247HP specs. Maybe a couple of engines actually produced that horsepower.

I bet that the engine horsepower is similar to that of the euro-model (227HP).

I doubt this, because the Euro spec model was originally supposed to be 237 hp. When they found they couldn't make this they changed the spec to 228 hp.

Why would they come clean and admit it when they couldn't meet the Euro spec but keep quiet about problems with the US cars? Especially when they are far more likely to be sued in the US than in Europe.

Originally posted by SlowLude
Wow, this is a great post! I have an RX-8 on order, but I'm actually thinking of postponing the order until these issues have been resolved or even cancelling the order. This "problem" is quite serious because its affecting potential buyers like me. I, for one, expect to get what I pay for. Right now, I'm thinking that if I put down a couple thousand dollars more, I can get myself a G35.. a car that doesn't lie on their numbers, supposedly have better service and quality control. I guess I'll just wait and see... Get the G35 and don't let the door hit ya...

Originally posted by ChrisW

I doubt this, because the Euro spec model was originally supposed to be 237 hp. When they found they couldn't make this they changed the spec to 228 hp.

Why would they come clean and admit it when they couldn't meet the Euro spec but keep quiet about problems with the US cars? Especially when they are far more likely to be sued in the US than in Europe.

Because the US is the most important market for them and competition is tough.

Do you have cars in the UK? Cars to test drive?

They have them in the US. We don't even get cars to testdrive in Canada...

Originally posted by agisd


Because the US is the most important market for them and competition is tough.

Do you have cars in the UK? Cars to test drive?

They have them in the US. We don't even get cars to testdrive in Canada...
I agree the US is their most important market (half of all RX-8's will be sold there). But what could they gain by lying like this? Very soon they will be found out. Then they will have to give out the real hp numbers. And in the process they damage their reputation and lose future sales.

Having said all that, all I'm saying is it would make no sense for Mazda to do this. Companies sometimes do dumb things, so I guess you can't rule it out.

I don't believe for one second Mazda is trying to mislead anyone on purpose.

I am hoping that next week Mazda will tell us or their dealer network that everything is working as planned and after X miles the fuel economy and power will improve (really wish I knew what X is).

Or several weeks/months from now they will announce a problem and the fix for it via a recall (ECU remap?). Or (worst case) announce a problem and state it cannot be fixed and here is your money back if you are unhappy as per Miata fiasco (total PR disaster, potential death of RX-7 etc).

From the RotaryNews post it looks like things are working as designed, but more details released through a more official channel are still needed. In any event I am still looking forward to my RX-8 (will still be the fastest car I've ever owned no matter what the hp says) which has been delayed yet another week - perhaps it will be delayed again until this issue is cleared up...

Originally posted by IRTMVEZ
Sounds like the 160 HP Miata fiasco all over again. Maybe that's why the RX-8 got slaughtered in the Best Motoring comparison video.

Where is this comparison video?

My RX-8 is set to arrive in the next week or two and I will be more than happy to dyno it in mid-late September at the same dyno I dyno my S4 at. After a 600 mile breakin, I am taking the RX-8 on a road trip from Dallas through Colorado and Vegas to Los Angeles and back... so I should have 4000+ miles on the clock when I get back. It should also be a bit cooler by that time and hopefully I can help put this to rest...

I'm worried about how much faith one can put into Maza's specifications if indeed the power loss is as low as intial claims seem to indicate.

I'm also a little worried about the Bridgestone tires... but, I digress.

The first 3 dyno's gave us some interesting food for thought. Allow some cars to reach the 5000/mi mark and then dyno again. If we are still seeing only 187hp then Mazda screwed the pooch and misadvertised its product, plain and simple.

I'm actually surprised some long time posters saying "well, if it feels good, who cares". I'm not a numbers junkie but advertising a product that misstates its information by 20-30 horses is a huge faux pas.

Now that being said, I ask that everybody stay in check and calm down. Feeding rumor and speculation on this board only scares away the potential newbie car buyers that visit the forum and elevates the "hand-ringing" from you forum junkies.

It would be nice if Mazda had great communication, they don't, pre-order program proved that. Let's wait and get some good dyno's after some extended driving and let's see where the chips lay.

BTW, got my car last night...

OK people, listen up. Here's a section of the latest review of the RX-8 in the UK's Top-Gear magazine. It's a US spec car which they drove to Vegas with a Crossfire, 350Z and TT. When they were comparing the straight line acceleration of the RX-8 and Crossfire they said this (see image). Now the lack of power at high revs mentioned here stinks of these dyno results. Something is wrong. Especially as the RX-8 is supposed to be nearly 1 second faster 0-60 than the Crossfire.

PS: don't get hung up on the 228bhp stated for the RX-8: they're giving the UK power even though it's a 247bhp US car.

I think Lensman, that the article rings true..

In my car, the power 'surge' is mostly from 3000+ RPMs... It doesn't pull as hard at 8000 as it does from 3000.

My understanding was that the car would get faster as the revs climb and it seems not to be the case.

In any case, it's quick enough for me though I wouldn't mind seeing some additional power on the high end. I'm having a blast throwing this car into a corner though it would be nice when I wind out that motor... it works for me.

Just my $.02... I'm not really worried about anything but I did notice a deficiency at the top end as the article points out. I think there may be more truth than is being told about this issue on the part of Mazda... hopefully that will result in a few bonuses for us if they say they have to fix it.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0305scc_mazdarx8/

I assume you have all seen this article. Have the people who have run their cars on the dyno checked for the opening of the third ports? Is this possible?

Sorry if I have missed this discussion, I have only found this site recently. I have a Red RX-8 coming in in about two weeks, and now I am getting a bit worried - though not enough to cancle the order.

Originally posted by bl0ck911
Not to be a dick but...
Too bad you are a dick.

You even register again after you're banned because you want to cause trouble... sad really; just get a life maybe you will have better things to do.

too late. You're already a dick.

Originally posted by ChrisW
Can I just ask a dumb question here: aren't there different emissions standards for different states in the US? So would vehicles in different states have their engines mapped differently and maybe have different power outputs?

No, all emissions should be the same in the states.

However, in regards to whether the ECU got remapped to meet US emissions when they reached port .....
Well, there's a way to put this theory to rest. Doesn't our Japanese friends have the same hi-performance engine (HP #) as us? If so, then dyno one of their cars. If it dynos higher, then just maybe our cars did get "detuned" to meet some kind of emissions standard.

Also, it wouldn't be bad if our overseas friends dyno'd their cars anyway. They should have more mileage accumulated then us over here. May give a more accurate reading.

i really dont see how this can be happening...

didnt someone say, long ago, that mazda has been testing the renesis for something on the order of 10 years?

on the dynos the engines were running "pig rich" in the upper rev range, i got this impression that this sucks power, wouldnt that have to do something with the ECU and not the engine at all? if thats the case, which it probably is, then its either that
1: ECU remaps istelf after x miles
2: ECU has to be tuned in such a way to meet emissions standards........

but, as has been said, if #2 is the case, why wouldnt they say it?
and doesnt the car get less HP in cali, due to emissions contols, and isnt that where all of these tests are coming from?

btw, who was that moron?
________
Lasik eye surgery advice (http://www.health-forums.org/lasik-eye-surgery/)

Originally posted by P00Man

2: ECU has to be tuned in such a way to meet emissions standards........


why the hell does everyone even think this is possible??? running AF of 11:1 is exactly what you DON'T want to do to be more emissions complaint...

Originally posted by LL7
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0305scc_mazdarx8/

Let me get this clear: Sport Compact Car is saying that the prototype RX-8 it tested had power valves that became stuck shut and, hense, their test car was significantly underpowered, as were the prototypes other magazines tested (based on test results) BUT...final production units should have the problem fixed BUT...RX-8 owners who have had their cars dynoed are coming up with horsepower figures pretty much in line with what Sport Compact Car dynoed on their 'defective' prototype? This at least mildly suggests the typical RX-8 may run fine for a few kms but then the power valves almost invariably stick shut. Is Mazda expecting them to magically become unstuck at some unspecified later mileage? Were they hoping no one would notice?

Now this is starting to sound just silly.

DonG35Miata
Where is this comparison video?

The link was at this forum but I think it's down. Most people have seen the show by now: an S2000, RX-8, G35 Sedan, WRX, Acura RSX and Miata square off for 5 laps around a fairly sharp-cornered track. The S2000 hands everyone their ass, and the RX-8 barely keeps ahead of the last place Miata. I'm not sure if it's credible, but the RX-8's poor performance is a lot more understandable if it's as underpowered as it's looking to be.

Originally posted by IRTMVEZ
Let me get this clear: Sport Compact Car is saying that the prototype RX-8 it tested had power valves that became stuck shut and, hense, their test car was significantly underpowered, as were the prototypes other magazines tested (based on test results) BUT...final production units should have the problem fixed BUT...RX-8 owners who have had their cars dynoed are coming up with horsepower figures pretty much in line with what Sport Compact Car dynoed on their 'defective' prototype? This at least mildly suggests the typical RX-8 may run fine for a few kms but then the power valves almost invariably stick shut. Is Mazda expecting them to magically become unstuck at some unspecified later mileage? Were they hoping no one would notice?


You may be mixing up two different issues. In the case of the SCC dyno test I think the graph would flat-line at around 6400rpm if the tertiary ports did not open. This is not the case with the production car dynos which have a perfectly shaped graph with dips where ports open etc except the graph should be a little steeper. Wakeech - what did I get wrong in my statement?

oops wak, thought that i had heard someone say that the ECU could be tuned to meet emissions or something along those lines


ive got another question though...
are those graphs direclty linked to the ECU?
if so, then it could be the ECU is sending the message for the ports to open, which is shown on the graph, but they really arent opening


im actually positive that that isnt the case, as its just completely out of the blue and has nothing to do with dynoing and such...

just throwing ideas outhere though, however idiotic they may be lol
________
couple Cam (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/straight-couples/)

I just had to inject a little sanity into the HP worries.

Yes, I hope Mazda does say something soon, and I further expect they will have to do something to make things right if it turns out that for whatever reason the 247 HP Renesis is really only 200 HP or less. Further Mazda needs to come clean now - my apprehension is not about whether the HP numbers sync or not but rather what their reaction to the situation will be; nothing will turn me off Mazda quicker than if they stay silent and do not acknowledge the dyno results are not what one would expect and offer an explanation, even if it's only that a rotary needs to break in for 2000 - 3000 miles before developing full power.

But none of this detracts from the experience I had and the stupid smile I had on my face when I test drove an RX-8 this past Tuesday. None of it detracts from the wonderful sound and feel of a rotary engine that I haven't been able to experience for almost ten years (I didn't fit in an FD RX-7.) The car still felt fast. It still had that wonderful turbine feel. It still handled better than most other cars available. In short it was still what I expected from the RX-8 and didn't magically become a slug or undesirable just because dyno tests to date aren't showing the numbers one would expect.

So if you want to cancel your order now or not buy yours when it comes in because of all this feel free - but if yours was a Winning Blue Metallic 6MT Sport with the spare tire option, please let me know which dealer your order was with so perhaps my dealer can do a dealer trade. :D

...or a Lightning Yellow :p

Excellent post, BillK. :cool:

Love for the car despite other people's doubts and feelings of being misled is a good thing. I don't care about the dyno #'s or the nitpicky stuff, the car is still amazing to me. Of course, others beg to differ, but to each their own :) .

I talked to a guy at my Mazda dealership regarding this problem and he told me he would contact someone at Mazda regarding this issue. He got back to me today and told me that a fuel remapping definitly occurs however he also told me that this should only make a difference of about 15 horsepower at the flywheel after the remapping. Also, he told me that the remapping would occur at around 1500 miles, which wouldn't explain the 2200 mile dyno, but might explain the guys that dynoed at around 600.

The more I think about it the more I believe that it has been detuned on purpose. I would imagine that along with the fuel map the ecu will switch to a more aggresive timing also. All N/A rotaries like lower octane better because of the long combustion chamber which requires an easier igniting fuel. The fact that premium is recommended fuel makes me believe that they not only leaned out the afr but also went for more aggresive timing to go with the slightly higher compression rotors. I still find it hard to believe that the side exhaust port configuration is better for power though.

You guys all seem to be missing the most important factor here, and if you do care about your cars stated HP #'s you should be worried, and that is that Mazda is denying any affiliation to the stated HP #'s. They are saying that they didn't do the testing, and not only are they saying that, but they are also saying (lying) that they did no HP testing of their own on cars to substantiate those numbers. There is no way any motor, not even a diesel will loosen up that much at any milage, and HP to the wheels is HP to the wheels on any car no matter what motor, what tires, what transmission, etc. I will bet the cars tested show NO more hp at 5000 miles than at 2000 miles, but i guess anything is possible. People were right in saying that most could care less about the hp. Most will test drive the car, and most will never rev high enough to get into the cars powerband, but on the other hand, alot of cars are sold because of how they do at the drag strip (especially when they are $30k sports cars). I hope everything does work out though. I like seeing Subaru, Mazda, and Mitsubishi having faster cars than Honda and Toyota.;)

Originally posted by GN1270
You guys all seem to be missing the most important factor here, and if you do care about your cars stated HP #'s you should be worried, and that is that Mazda is denying any affiliation to the stated HP #'s. They are saying that they didn't do the testing, and not only are they saying that, but they are also saying (lying) that they did no HP testing of their own on cars to substantiate those numbers.

Mazda has not denied anything yet nor are they lying. There is not "official" word from Mazda on this.

As to the post on another thread:
In regards to your inquiry, please understand that the tests that you referred to were not conducted by Mazda and we can not substantiate the claims of independent testing, although we are looking into this matter. Currently, the information that we have supplied remains. No engine-break in has been noted."

Mazda North America is NOT lying. You are either not reading it clearly or you are definately take it out of context. They are just stating that these "independent" dyno tests and mag performance tests were not conducted by Mazda, and they can not substantiate the claims or results. What's so hard about understanding that. They also go on and say that they stand behind their numbers (Mazda's).

In closing, if it ends up that the power loss is 23% to the rear, so be it. I didn't buy the car based on the stated HP number. I bought it for the styling and performance. Is it depressing to have that much loss, yes, but if the performance times don't suffer, I don't care. I would be impressed that Mazda would be getting those kind of performance numbers from a car pushing 187 hp equal to vehicles that have 10-20% more HP. Mazda NEVER released a HP number for the rear wheels, only at the crank (247ps). I don't see any indication that they are lying regarding HP numbers.

Originally posted by RX-8 Zoomster


In closing, if it ends up that the power loss is 23% to the rear, so be it. I didn't buy the car based on the stated HP number. I bought it for the styling and performance. Is it depressing to have that much loss, yes, but if the performance times don't suffer, I don't care. I would be impressed that Mazda would be getting those kind of performance numbers from a car pushing 187 hp equal to vehicles that have 10-20% more HP. Mazda NEVER released a HP number for the rear wheels, only at the crank (247ps). I don't see any indication that they are lying regarding HP numbers.

Yes they did, not in print but verbally at the _MAZDA_ RX-8 press event.

Rotarynews (http://rotarynews.com/view.php?id=193)

I doubt the Mazda guys dreamt those numbers up...

D-san

Originally posted by GoShogun
I talked to a guy at my Mazda dealership regarding this problem and he told me he would contact someone at Mazda regarding this issue. He got back to me today and told me that a fuel remapping definitly occurs however he also told me that this should only make a difference of about 15 horsepower at the flywheel after the remapping. Also, he told me that the remapping would occur at around 1500 miles, which wouldn't explain the 2200 mile dyno, but might explain the guys that dynoed at around 600.

Maybe the ECU is stuck?

Not worried in the least...

This is a classic case of Internet Hysteria, with everybody up in arms and reacting to information which is at the very least relatively unexamined, and at the worst unsubstantiated nonsense.

I am with BillK on this one: the car drives great, feels great, performs great... I frankly couldn't give a s--t how much or little horsepower this engine makes.

Throughout this thread we have many other unreliable and inaccurate sources of information being passed on and believed over manufactuers specs. I list a few in order of unbelieveability.
1) What a car salesman verbally told people at a car selling event when asked a question they knew nothing about. Horse power at the rear wheels.
2) An article from a numbers based performance magazine quoting the wrong spec for the car they are testing, yet I'm supposed to believe the rest of the article. Along with many quotes from a guy who subscribes to this magazine. There are more made up stories in jounalism these days than there are false assumptions in this thread.
3) Somebody keeps posting with a big picture of a silver land yacht, and wants us to believe they are really really concerned about a couple of horse power or a few tenth of a second.
4) Some one in one post says he has ran a 6.0 second 0-60, then agree with a post that he missing all his top end.
5) Besides the usual 2 to 3 trolls stirring the witches brew, and spouting more unsubstatiated BS than the car salesman in number 1.
I found it very entertaining.
Sorry got to go, got to drive my super slow lead sled to work, I only have a half hour to go 5 miles I hope I can make it. Have fun worrying, I choose driving my winning blue, 6MT, 2?? HP, RX8. semi ZOOM, semi ZOOM.

Don't forget the whole idea of electric power steering and one piece CF driveshafts etc was to reduce power losses from the engine. I would expect the RX-8 to have lower losses than an FD RX-7 (i.e. < 18%) rather than compare it to a Miata at 23%.

To those that don't think Mazda needs to do anything about this situation - I take it that if Mazda eventully admits a mistake in HP and offers everyone, say, free servicing for the warranty period (50k miles) then they will not accept the offer. I think the performance of the car is good enough for my personal needs, but I will hold Mazda accountable for their past and current marketing claims, and expect recompense if it is in error. I hope there is not an error for the sake of Mazda's reputation, even if it costs me freebies.

To RX8-U-UP:
1. Robert Davis is Senior VP of Product Development (for a long time) and Marketing (recent additional duties) for Mazda, not a car salesman. He has been with Mazda North America for 13 years and is a 'rotorhead' and a racer - I would expect him to be accurate in what he says to a journalist 'on record'. I am in a senior management for a publicly traded company like Mazda and NOBODY says anything to the media 'of the cuff' - everything is vetted multiple times. The legal fallout and effect on share price can be huge for even the slightest mistake...
2) Don't know which magazine article you are talking about
3)I keep posting with an avatar of two dogs and yet I am concerned about many other things too, including hp numbers for this car. So what?
4)Hercules measured a 0-60 with a handheld stopwatch and got roughly 6 secs. It can easily be a second off depending on speedo error, reaction time, etc. I can believe he thinks the top end is weaker than expected - e.g. at 70mph drop from 5th to 3rd (engine over 6000rpm) and find a slight lack of oomph.
5)I am surprised at only 2-3 'trolls' - considering how many auto forums know about the HP issue I expected dozens by now.

BTW a recent Japanese magazine used timing equipment and got 0-60 in 7.04 secs for a 250PS 6MT (247hp over here) and 7.10 for the 210PS model with 5MT (207hp engine but no equivalent transmission in USA). They also got 400m (1/4 mile) in 14.97 for hi-power and 15.05 for low-power - only 0.08secs difference for supposedly 40hp difference. The article is in Japanese so most of us can only understand the numbers chart - there may have been extenuating circumstances for the 250PS model.

Originally posted by pelucidor
BTW a recent Japanese magazine used timing equipment and got 0-60 in 7.04 secs for a 250PS 6MT (247hp over here) and 7.10 for the 210PS model with 5MT (207hp engine but no equivalent transmission in USA). They also got 400m (1/4 mile) in 14.97 for hi-power and 15.05 for low-power - only 0.08secs difference for supposedly 40hp difference. The article is in Japanese so most of us can only understand the numbers chart - there may have been extenuating circumstances for the 250PS model.
I thought Japan did not have the 250PS 6MT? I thought the auto and manual both had the 210PS engine?

A marketing executive for a car company is a high priced car salesman. And I'm sure Robert Davis has not said anything more than the press release on the 8, 247 HP at the engine. Mazda has left it up to everyone else to speculate what that means to the rear wheels. I bet they can prove, and have proved over and over their only released figure (247 HP at the engine). Using any one of 500 speculative calculations that I have seen throughout the forum, this could be anything from 0 to 247 HP at the rear wheels. If they are wrong they will be found out, and all involved will be compensated. Its not going to ruin the fun that I am currently experiecing driving this car. Many people on this and other threads do not appear to buy a car until they have substatiating DYNO results to justify their purchase. DYNO results are not a part of my car purchasing regiment, and never will be. I don't on a daily, weekly, or annual basis bet my pink slip based on my cars performance. Because from my experience there is always somebody bigger, badder, meaner, and faster than anyone on any given day, and Murfy's law tell me that one individual will nine times out of ten be lined up against me. My car seems to run better cold, that doesn't mean I am only going to drive it in the winter. Buy the car you like, and like the car you buy, until its time to get another. Nothing makes me happier than seeing well taken care of cars of all types.

Originally posted by jonalan
I thought Japan did not have the 250PS 6MT? I thought the auto and manual both had the 210PS engine?

Originally posted by JSG
In Japan we have:
base - cheapest 5 sp manual (210ps)
E-type - no classic Jaguar but a 4 sp auto (again 210ps)
S-type - 250ps 6 sp manual

John

BTW JSG has a 250PS (247hp) 6MT RX-8 in Japan and has posted about his car many times since April - he gave the first review of his 250Ps RX-8 compared to his previous 250PS S2000.

I gotta say that for those that say that don't give a rat's ass about the missing HP because the car is already fun. Well, what if the car can be even MORE fun. But anyway, I will bet that if there is a fix, all those that say they don't care will be calling to schedule appointments for the fix "that isn't even needed".

Never ever forget that very special instrument, the all-important ----------- BUTT DYNO ---------- (aka ass sensor).

If the test drive is impressive and nimbly zips your butt all over the neighborhood and you're smiling, then the power results are great! My ass sensor is particularly fond of the handling and high rpm freeway action...

Originally posted by nk_Rx8
I gotta say that for those that say that don't give a rat's ass about the missing HP because the car is already fun. Well, what if the car can be even MORE fun. But anyway, I will bet that if there is a fix, all those that say they don't care will be calling to schedule appointments for the fix "that isn't even needed". Well put! Similarly if Mazda eventually offers freebies (free servicing etc) for owners that are unhappy with their lower than marketed HP, will these previously 'happy at whatever hp' owners suddenly become unhappy to get the freebie?

Originally posted by nk_Rx8
I gotta say that for those that say that don't give a rat's ass about the missing HP because the car is already fun. Well, what if the car can be even MORE fun. But anyway, I will bet that if there is a fix, all those that say they don't care will be calling to schedule appointments for the fix "that isn't even needed".

Well, duh! No kidding one would take advantage of free improvements offered. Just because I would take what was offered doesn't mean I would care if it wasn't! Typical obtuse and specious reasoning. The fact remains that I wouldn't give a rats ass if nobody made an issue of this and it all died quietly right now: ergo, I don't give a f--k about this "claimed" and "supposed" "lack" of horsepower, which many people all seem to be up in arms about, but which (in my tiny little mind, anyway) isn't even substantiated. I mean dyno tests at 95 degrees F for crying out loud... I don't care how good the dyno software is, that sorta temperature (and possibly humidity) is gonna give questionable results.

What other variables have been ignored? What other shortcuts have been taken? When you go looking for something wrong, YOU USUALLY FIND IT. It seems to me that many people here are screaming to crucify Mazda for something which has yet to be proven. It reeks of a mob mentality, IMHO.

Originally posted by 73JPS
It reeks of a mob mentality, IMHO.

Get yer flaming torches here! Flaming torches: 3 for a dollar gettum 'ere. Free map of the road to the Castle on the hill with every torch... Get ya torches 'ere!!!..

Originally posted by Lensman


Get yer flaming torches here! Flaming torches: 3 for a dollar gettum 'ere. Free map of the road to the Castle on the hill with every torch... Get ya torches 'ere!!!..

:D

Originally posted by 73JPS
Well, duh! No kidding one would take advantage of free improvements offered. But the fact remains that I wouldn't give a rats ass if nobody made an issue of this and it all died quietly right now: ergo, I don't give a f--k about this "claimed" and "supposed" "lack" of horsepower, which many people all seem to be up in arms about,

For all the people that "don't give a f--k about this "claimed" and "supposed" "lack" of horsepower", you sure are monitoring the low HP threads closely. And why would you need the free HP? The car is perfect as is! No need to bother the dealer for an unneeded fix.

The bottom line is that Neither Mazda nor any company would lift a finger to fix anything or to advertise truthfully if no consumers complained about it. So many people are just acting like they don't give a rat's ass (maybe to defend their purchase as is) while others cause the stink to get things righted. Then of course in the end, those that didn't need anything more will dive in and reap the benefits also while maintaining that they didn't need it. Sorry, gotta call it like I see it. There were Miata guys denying that the Miata was low on power too, same with the Cobra guys, STi guys are denying that any of them ping, etc. What if the RX8 was advertised as 260hp while still dynoes at 180whp? Then is is still OK? What about 270hp? 300hp? The car still drives the same. Would you still be OK?

I haven't bought yet, but I would be mad too like some of the other guys are. Yes, some test drove the car first. But, most people probably didn't get to thrash it or test that the car meets specs. When I buy something, esp ~$30k, it'd better do everything that was advertised to me and meet the advertised specs.

Uh, the thread is "are you WORRIED" about the lack of horsepower...

No. Not worried. It seems the "mob" can do all the worrying for me. And the horsepower loss is "claimed" because I don't trust the sources, and nothing has been substantiated.

Originally posted by 73JPS
Uh, the thread is "are you WORRIED" about the lack of horsepower...

No. Not worried. It seems the "mob" can do all the worrying for me. And the horsepower is loss is "claimed" because I don't trust the sources dude.

3 separate dyno results: all with near identical low power conclusions? Paul Yaw stating that other cars have been dynoed and that they have exhibited problems? Low performance statistics from owners (subjective I'll agree), the odd Japanese results??? Clearly there's a grassy knoll involved somewhere.

Originally posted by nk_Rx8


The bottom line is that Neither Mazda nor any company would lift a finger to fix anything or to advertise truthfully if no consumers complained about it. So many people are just acting like they don't give a rat's ass (maybe to defend their purchase as is) while others cause the stink to get things righted.

EXACTLY, I don't understand the mentality of some people here who are defending the RX-8 despite the apparent dyno results and Mazda's inability to provide a straight answer swiftly. For those who claims the car is perfect even with 180whp - what if the RX-8 dynoed at 150whp but still 'feels' fast? So base on that logic, Mazda might as well have advertised the Renesis produces 400hp, and the 180whp is attributed to drive tran loss.

Now you guys are being silly. If Mazda comes out and says nothing is wrong with the car, it is what it is - I'm fine with that. Now, if they come out and say "oops", we can make your car faster AND we'll give you free oil changes for life, just bring it in to your dealer - hell yeah, I'm gonna do it! That has NOTHING to do with me being happy or unhappy with the car.

Didn't I say that already??:D

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac


EXACTLY, I don't understand the mentality of some people here who are defending the RX-8 despite the apparent dyno results and Mazda's inability to provide a straight answer swiftly. For those who claims the car is perfect even with 180whp - what if the RX-8 dynoed at 150whp but still 'feels' fast? So base on that logic, Mazda might as well have advertised the Renesis produces 400hp, and the 180whp is attributed to drive tran loss.

This is hilarious. Read your own post, dude. You want Mazda to provide a "straight answer swiftly"; a straight answer swiftly to what? "Apparent" dyno results. LOL.

No, with a mob of half baked RX8 forum members jumping wildly to conclusions that Mazda must be wrong, I would think that Mazda will be very careful and methodical regarding how they come up with an answer.

BTW, my 'mentality' is NOT to defend the 8, or claim it is perfect as is. I am actually more of the mindset of the Rotary News guys: wait and see, relax, it may not be that big a deal. But go ahead, run around like a chicken with its head cut off: that's a mentality I don't understand...:p

Originally posted by 73JPS
Didn't I say that already??:D
I'm a slow typer. :)