According to CNN and FOXNEWS during a 4 hour raid by spec-op Task Force 20 at a home in the city of Mosul four people where killed. 2 "resemble" Uday and Qusay, military people on site say it's likely that they are the 2 sons of Saddam.

Also killed was a teenage boy believed to be the grandson of Saddam.

The house is owned by a cousin of Saddam.


Or should I say what's left of the house!

1 US soldier wounded.

Update:

CNN: Officials now say it is reasonably certain the 2 sons where killed.

saddam only cares for himself, i wonder if hes wit osama bin laden? they can be planning stuff:(

From MSNBC:

[QUOTE] GUNFIRE AND EXPLOSIONS erupted in celebration in Baghdad as word of the killings reached the capital, NBC producers reported from the scene.
Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the commander of allied military operations in Iraq, said at a news conference Tuesday that four Iraqis were killed in a six-hour gunbattle that erupted when U.S. troops arrived to search the home, which reportedly belonged to a cousin of Saddam.
Without saying how, Sanchez said U.S. officials had confirmed that Odai and Qusai were among the four dead people. A U.S. official told NBC News separately on condition of anonymity that senior Iraqi figures in U.S. custody had positively identified the bodies.
/QUOTE]

Here is the full story from Yahoo news.

"MOSUL, Iraq - Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s sons Odai and Qusai were killed in a six-hour firefight Tuesday when U.S. forces, acting on a tip from an Iraqi informant, surrounded and then stormed a palatial villa in this northern Iraqi town, a senior American general said.

Four coalition soldiers were wounded and two other Iraqis were killed in the raid, but Saddam was not among them. The house belonged to one of Saddam's cousins, a key tribal leader in the region.


"We are certain that Odai and Qusai were killed today," said Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez at a news conference in Baghdad. "The bodies were in such a condition where you could identify them."


The deaths of the sons could have a major impact on the Iraqi resistance, which has been mounting about a dozen attacks a day against U.S. occupation troops. The guerrillas are thought to be former military officers and Baath Party leaders loyal to Saddam and his family — especially the sons, who played primary roles in the military and feared security services.


Both Odai and Qusai ranked second only to their father in the deposed regime, officials have said. They were Nos. 2 and 3 on the U.S. list of 55 top former Iraqi officials wanted by Washington. The United States had offered a $25 million reward for information leading to Saddam's capture and $15 million each for his sons.


In Washington, L. Paul Bremer, Iraq (news - web sites)'s top civilian administrator, said he did not want to comment on how the deaths of Saddam's sons would affect security in Iraq.


However, Bremer said: "It certainly is good news for the Iraqi people."


"This will contribute significantly to reducing attacks on coalition soldiers," said Ahmad Chalabi, a delegate from the Coalition Provisional Authority, speaking at the United Nations (news - web sites).


Asked whether the killing of the sons would reduce the incessant attacks on American forces, Sanchez said he thought the security situation now would improve.


"I believe very firmly this will have an effect. This will prove to the Iraqi people that these two members of the Iraqi regime will never come to power again," Sanchez said.


Hours after the raid in Mosul, gunfire erupted throughout Baghdad, making travel very dangerous. The shooting was believed to be celebratory as news of the killing of the sons spread through the capital.


"It's probably very appropriate that they would be celebrating about now," Sanchez said.


Fighting broke out after soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division surrounded the stone, columned villa.


When troops approached the building, gunmen inside opened fire with small arms. The "suspects barricaded themselves in the house" and "resisted fiercely," Sanchez said.


"They died in a fierce gunbattle," Sanchez added.


He told reporters that soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division were working on a tip from an Iraqi informant that the sons were present in the house.


Asked if the $15 million rewards would be paid, Sanchez said: "I would expect that it probably will happen."





According to witnesses in Mosul, a small force of American soldiers went to the house about 9 a.m. and asked permission to search it. The occupants refused, and the patrol withdrew until about 10 a.m., when 100 more soldiers arrived in 25 vehicles.

The Americans opened fire but received fierce return fire from inside the home, the witnesses said. Kiowa helicopters arrived and fired rockets into the villa. The interior of the house was destroyed and two adjacent homes were badly damaged.

Once the fighting died down, Iraqi police arrived to help the Americans search the building.

"When we saw the people in the house shooting back, we knew Odai and Qusai were there," said the 31-year-old Jamal.

Afterward, about 1,000 people gathered, some expressing delight, others cursing the Americans.

The soldiers removed four bodies and did not let photographers near enough to take pictures.

The building, in the al-Falah neighborhood, was left charred and smoldering, its high facade riddled with gaping holes from bullets and heavy weaponry. Kiowa helicopters roamed the sky.

Some Mosul civilians appeared to have been caught in the crossfire. It was not known how many people were injured, but several were taken to a hospital.

Officials gave conflicting reports on whether anyone was captured during the assault. The officials said they had no initial information that would suggest Saddam was present during the raid.

Experts conducted DNA tests after the bodies were flown from Mosul to another location, officials said.

Throughout the day, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld briefed President Bush (news - web sites) personally about the assault.

Qusai was probably intended as Saddam's successor, according to U.S. intelligence officials. He ran much of Iraq's security apparatus, controlling several militias, internal security services and the military forces of the once-vaunted Republican Guard.

He was described as quiet and level, particularly compared to Odai, Saddam's eldest son, who had a reputation for brutality and flamboyance. Odai controlled Saddam's Fedayeen, the paramilitary force that fought U.S. troops during the war; many of its survivors are thought to be part of the ongoing guerrilla campaign in Iraq.

Odai also controlled information and propaganda in Saddam's Iraq, and was chairman of the country's Olympic committee.

Saddam has a third, younger son, according to some reports, and three daughters. All kept a low profile in his regime.

Mosul, a town 240 miles northwest of Baghdad that housed Iraqi army bases, is outside the so-called "Sunni Triangle" in central Iraq — home to much of the remaining support for Saddam, a Sunni Muslim who used his Baathist Party to oppress the country's Shiite majority.

The triangle is also a center of anti-American resistance: In the latest attack, Tuesday, a U.S. soldier was killed and another wounded in an ambush along a dangerous road north of Baghdad. His death brought to 153 the number of U.S. troops killed in action since the March 20 start of war, six more than during the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites).

The U.S. Central Command said the attackers used rocket-propelled grenades and small arms in the assault staged along the road between Balad, 50 miles north of Baghdad, and Ramadi, 60 miles west of the capital. It gave no other details.

The U.S.-led coalition's military occupation of Iraq has been met by constant armed Iraqi resistance, resulting in almost daily deaths of American troops. Many recent assaults have been staged with remote-controlled roadside explosions.

Before the announcement, White House officials were cautious in their assessments of whether the raid was successful.

Asked about reports of that Saddam's sons had been killed, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said he was "not in a position to confirm anything."

Given a series of failed strikes against Iraqi leaders since the war began March 20, U.S. officials clearly did not want to make any public claims that later prove untrue.

On April 7, Rumsfeld announced the death of Ali Hassan al-Majid, Saddam's first cousin and one of his bloodiest henchman, and showed reporters video of laser-guided bombs obliterating a house in Basra, Iraq's second city, where a tipster had told coalition forces he was staying.

But last month, U.S. military officials said that interrogations of Iraqi prisoners indicated al-Majid, known as "Chemical Ali" for his use of mustard gas and other poisonous gases to kill thousands of northern Kurds during a 1988 rebellion, might be alive.

Twice during the war, information on Saddam's whereabouts was deemed solid enough that an airstrike was sent to kill him. But despite optimistic statements in the hours after each raid, U.S. officials now believe he is alive."

Originally posted by mental pimp
saddam only cares for himself, i wonder if hes wit osama bin laden? they can be planning stuff:(

I appreciate the sentiment, pimp, but Saddam and Bin Laden are not in cahoots. Hussein ran a secular (non-religious) regime in Iraq, precisly the type of Arab government that Bin Laden despises. Bin Laden envisions a unified Islamic state throughout the Gulf, and that is not what Iraq is.

The myth that Hussein and Bin Laden were cooperating with one another was another bit of "misinformation" perpetuated to justify the war. Then we could "get even" with Iraq for 9/11 or keep them from giving nukes to al Qaeda, or whatever. The fact is, neither of these perceptions are true. There is NO intelligence estimate -- US or otherwise -- that Iraq and al Qaeda were cooperating.

Not to say that they aren't both @-holes, but not all @-holes band together.

So, tell me again why we had this "little" war? Rid the country of WMDs that were ready for 45-minutes use in the battlefield? Stop them from getting nukes? Revenge for 9/11? Keep them from arming al Qaeda terrorists? I forget how far down the list we've gone on this one.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe


I appreciate the sentiment, pimp, but Saddam and Bin Laden are not in cahoots. Hussein ran a secular (non-religious) regime in Iraq, precisly the type of Arab government that Bin Laden despises. Bin Laden envisions a unified Islamic state throughout the Gulf, and that is not what Iraq is.

The myth that Hussein and Bin Laden were cooperating with one another was another bit of "misinformation" perpetuated to justify the war. Then we could "get even" with Iraq for 9/11 or keep them from giving nukes to al Qaeda, or whatever. The fact is, neither of these perceptions are true. There is NO intelligence estimate -- US or otherwise -- that Iraq and al Qaeda were cooperating.

Not to say that they aren't both @-holes, but not all @-holes band together.

So, tell me again why we had this "little" war? Rid the country of WMDs that were ready for 45-minutes use in the battlefield? Stop them from getting nukes? Revenge for 9/11? Keep them from arming al Qaeda terrorists? I forget how far down the list we've gone on this one.

What you say is true. Bin Laden even considers Hussein to be one of the numerous "infidels". This war was not for moral reasons but for revenge and money. Cheney and Wolfowitz were the biggest hawks.

Whatever the reason for the war, I'm glad Saddam's out. That guy should have been ousted/killed years ago. IMO:D

Originally posted by mantisflie
Whatever the reason for the war, I'm glad Saddam's out. That guy should have been ousted/killed years ago.

No argument there. I just wish that had been our justification for going in. At least it would have been truthful and indisputable; our troops would have known exactly what they were fighting and dying for. We would be on the moral highground now, instead of trying to justify our military action. Honesty is always the best policy.

Honesty is always the best policy.
Agreed wannabe, but when has
honesty ever been a government policy?:D

Saddam and Bin-Laden hated each other. There is some evidence that Saddam and Bin-Laden helped each other out a couple times, but that was only because they had a common enemy, not because they had any warm fuzzies for each other. Murderous megalomaniacs tend to not get along very well. Example; Hitler and Stalin.

Now that Saddam is devoid of any meaningful power he is no longer of any use to Bin-Laden, or anyone else outside of Iraq for that matter.

Or we could just sit on our ass and wait for 9/11 part 2. Saddam's gone...good ridence. If he wasn't trying to get nukes and would have actually actively participated in any the 16 resolutions that he was given throughout the nineties he wouldn't have found himself in this situation. If he didn't try to overtake Kuwait, it has been clearly documented that he would have had a nuke by 1994. The only reason he didn't get one was because he invaded Kuwait and we destroyed his reactors. He has killed, tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of people. He is worse than Milosevich (sp?) whom got life in prison for war crimes. Next to Hitler, there is Saddam's face. If that isn't reason enough, then f**k everyone who says otherwise. Who do we have to convice? France? Russia? Germany? Oh I forgot...we should take a page from Germany and Russia's history book! Damn, if it wasn't for the 2nd greatest president we ever had Reagan (Lincoln the 1st), we would all be speaking Russian and commies would be running around. And people in France would be speaking German. Don't be blinded. Guess who had the largest oil contracts with Iraq...yup RUSSIA, FRANCE and GERMANY. Iraq also bought their small arms weapons from them and not to mention their nuclear reactors from France. So the no blood for oil line is ridiculous. Those countries had more to lose than the rest of the world combined. That, is the reason they didn't help us with the dirty work. BUT, now that it is over, they have all said that they want a say in how the country is run and have tried to stake a claim in Iraq's oil.

Please. WW2 happened because everyone took a wait and see approach to Hitler's campaign. Why let it get that way when you can do something about it now. And don't worry, our troops knew what the hell they are fighting/fought for. I know several people over in Iraq right now. They didn't need confidence from France, Russia and the people on the left (Daschle and Kennedy) to know what they were fighting for.

BTW, they (Daschle and Kennedy) are the biggest hippocrits alive. Back during desert Fox...when Clinton was trying to cover-up his morally correct actions with Miss Monica...Clinton invaded Iraq WITHOUT approval at all. He didn't even go ask for it...he just did it. And what did Daschle and Kennedy say, "we must stand next to our commander in charge and show unity to the world, show that we are united..." And want exactly did we do in Desert Fox, besides trying to take some of the headlines off of Clinton's head... F**K you Daschle and Kennedy. Bush in 2008! Finally was have a president that sticks to his guns, instead of trying to stick his gun into someone else.

Whoops...meant 2004 obviously.

Finally was have a president that sticks to his guns, instead of trying to stick his gun into someone else.


Well, at least he has the capacity to like....publicly read speeches that were pre-written for and studied beforehand by him :D

heh, bush is dumb cause the israeli government are taking advantage of bush and his military crap to kill palestinians, bush is supporting terrorism too by helping sharon kill those innocent palestinians
thats my opinion

Originally posted by mental pimp
thats my opinion

Indeed it is.

heh, bush is dumb cause the israeli government are taking advantage of bush and his military crap to kill palestinians, bush is supporting terrorism too by helping sharon kill those innocent palestinians

You're a fool. Those innocent palestinians. They have to have suicide bombers and blow up pizza parlors and gracery stores. They are attacking truly innocent CIVILIANS. Isreal responds by attacking hamas and palestinians terrorists, not the civiilians at the local pizza hut. If 1 person gets caught in the crossfire then all hell breaks loose that Israel is attacking innocent people. The hell they are. You're are neither mental or a pimp. You're a fraud without a clue. Go back where you came from. And you made a statement. Don't go around making those statements without backing it up. How dare you make a statement like that where truly innocent non-military persons are getting slaughtered for no reason. Havn't you noticed that Israel only RESPONDS to attacks on them...and never attacks first? Until Hamas and these terrorist organizations are gone there will never be peace there. Hamas MUST go and good ridence, the world will be a better place. But I must say that I despise YOU (Mental Pimp) and that comment you made. If Isreal really wanted to they could take over the entire Middle East, without a problem. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc...would be no longer. Israel has the best trained special ops in the world, next to the US. It is all political. And because Israel actually follows international laws, they are putting themselves in harms way by making themselves vulnerable to suicide bombings. Go back to where you came from Pimp.

And BTW, yes Bush's speeches are pre-written. What president's speeches weren't pre-written? Whoever writes those speeches should get a raise.

yeah the suicide bomings is a respond to the israeli govt going to palestinian houses and killing their baby and blowing up houses, how would u feel if u woke up to see your house blown down and your baby dead, the israelies started it and its their fault and they are using the United States tanks, and weapons to do terrorist acts, so dont be screaming at me like that get it right
israel cant and will never take over those lands , cause theyr only trained to kill innocent people , uve been wathcing too much CNN

and yeah i can back it up u want me to get that video of those israeli bastards shooting the father and the son, and the dad is trying to cover his son from the bullets?
and they both die for no reason, they dont have anything to do wit hamas, u want me to show u all the pictures of those dead babies?

so wat? if some isreali civilians died its nothing compared to wat those poor palestinians have gone through

Have either of you actually been there? If not I would hold off having strong opinions one way or the other. The problems faced in other parts of the world are presented to people in NA through the edited lenses of what the reporters, news agencies and governments want you to think. Other sources are usually biased one way or the other depending on who is giving you the info.

From what I have seen over the years I can say that 90% of the population just wants to left alone and that governments have little real impact one way or the other. Man has dominated man to his injury. Politicians and many religious leaders, just want to have the position and title and care little or not at all for the common man, and will say or do almost anything to get it.

The people living and dying in the middle east, as in most countries, are being misled by their leaders, either religious or political or both. If your leader is telling you to kill for their beliefs, they don't deserve to be a leader. I am willing to die for my beliefs, but not to kill for them.

yeah its the leaders fault^ true

Yeah I would love to see the video of Isreali's killing innocent palestinians. Too bad it doesn't exist.

Have either of you actually been there? If not I would hold off having strong opinions one way or the other. Yeah I have actually been there. I see what is going on. Why do you think movies always have hijackers and bombers being Paalestinians (WAY before 9/11)? Becuse 99% of them are Palestian! These extremists have been brainwashed. The Koran is filled with horrible, horrible murderous things. Because basically, the lives of these suicide bombers are absolutely etrocious they have nothing else to look forward to but death, in a world that they believe death will bring riches and women. Effing dumb. These people have no laws, no money and worst of all no education. They are taught in the schools that American's and Isreali's are the enemy. People aren't born to hate...they are bred to hate. It is a terrible thing. People in Isreal AREN'T taught to hate. They don't search out people of other faith's to kill. Everyone here knows the truth except for PIMPSTER, who obviously has an Arab background. Too bad you are also brainwashed and can't see the real problem, which is uneducated, unlawful children being bred to fight instead of trying to better their already crappy lives.

The problems faced in other parts of the world are presented to people in NA through the edited lenses of what the reporters, news agencies and governments want you to think. Absolutely. Too bad these so-called arab new agencies (Al Jazeera et al) do NOT report the news. They report a twist of the truth since they are OWNED and ran by their respective governments! You understand that MENTAL PIMP. That is why CNN is the MOST RESPECTED news source in the world. The US doesn't own them and they report unbiased news. Not lies. Not news with spin towards the US. Too bad free speech and free press aren't in any of the middle eastern countries (EXCEPT ISREAL). If they were, the residents/population of those countries would see a different side. Just like in Cuba. People there have no idea the truth behind there communistic country. That is the only way of life they know. Too bad. I have talked to SEVERAL people that fled arab countries/cuba and ask them why the people there don't stand up to there government etc... and ALL of them respond with, "because they don't know. They don't know the truth behind what is happening in the world. They only know what is broadcasted on governmental news channel."

What is really sad is that people like MENTAL PIMP, that came here to get a better life are still brainwashed. GET THE F**K OUT if you don't like it. We don't keep you here.

And yeah we give Isreal LOTS of money and weapons. Why? Because in the early 40-70's they were attacked to no end. So we supported them and now none of them can touch them. You think Jordan with their 1960 russian AK's and a handful of rocks even mount a fight with the Isreali army? HA! Get real, and go back to your sandcastle.

no no no u got it all wrong, u are brain washed by the american govt, u belive wat they belive, the quran has nothin in it that says anything about hate or murders, it doesnt even tell us to do suicide bomings,my parents are palestinians and i have a friend whose uncle died in a suicide bombing, cnn only shows wat the israeli people are going through not the palestinians, ohh when one israeli breaks a fucking nail its like omg poor guy, but when palestinians babies die cause of those israeli bastards its like ohh its ok they didnt feel any pain because they died right on impact,
u never read the quran so dont start saying s**t about it, there is education,nice homes to live in,and palestine is a nice palce to live in, if u dont belive me then i will post a picture of my friends house in palestine

my friends house, u call this crap?

excuse me, but it's quite evident that neither of you two have the knowledge, understanding, capacity or humanity to resolve this little quibble: i suggest the two of you cool it, this is a place for friendly discussion.

the conflict is far, far more complex and far reaching than either of you obviously understand. the solution to this sincerely terrible conflict will be neither instant, easy, nor something which will please either side, nor will arguing like this on a public automotive forum on the internet help.

if you want to express your views, fine. be civil, present factual information, present it well, and do your best to be unbiased and understanding... the truth's somewhere "between the median and the mean"... just go between the bull's horns.

http://www.ict.org.il/

27/53 terrorists groups are middle eastern muslim countries of which 1 is Isreali.

That Isreali group-Kach and Kahane Chai has performed 4 attacks since their existence, which has resulted in only 1 death and not a single attack has taken place since 5/98.

On the other hand there are 13 terrorist groups that are active in the present Isreali/Arab Conflict of which 1 is Isreali (named above).

Taking a look at the terrorist activity of JUST HAMAS ALONE- they have committed 116 separate attacks since 1988 leading to 505 casualties!!!! That is just with Hamas.

Are you trying to say that the Palestinians are just responding to attacks made by by Isreali's? Remember the only Isreali so-called Terrorist group has committed 1 casualty and 4 attacks since their existence in 1973 and not a single one since 1998.

Obviously that doesn't check out, so then you are blaming it on the Isreali military? Let me tell you something right now, if the Isreali military attacked palestinians 116 times before a terrorist attack on them, the entire international community would be up in arms. But it never happened that way. Truth is, is that these extremist organizations are ruining your people's way of life for the future and the present. Truth is, is that they perform these acts unprovoked and without fear of retaliation, for they will be with Allah and getting laid in the afterlife. Take one for the team, huh? It's too bad that these uneducated palestinian people just don't get that their so-called leader is just leading them to their death. If they (leaders) believed in this so much why don't THEY go out and perform these things? It is a figment of their imagination. The majority of them were educated in THE US! They are leading a bunch of sheep...brainless and mindless they go trudging to their doom to meet Allah. I hope every one of the extremists meets their Allah as does 99% of the world population.

I never said that palestinian people were bad, unlike you saying those Isreali bastards and bashing America. How can you sit at your computer, in the US, and defend these a-holes. Can't you see that THEY are making your people's lives like this and the middle east peace process can never move on!

In the fall of 2000 Clinton, Arafat and Barak were trying to settle on a middle east peace process. Israel was willing – albeit with justifiably greater wariness – to make the most attractive offer it can to the Palestinians, including an independent state, all of Gaza, almost all of the West Bank, and some kind of arrangement for Arab neighborhoods of east Jerusalem. But guess what, Arafat said NO! WHY? Because he was getting death threats from Hamas and other otganizations that no peace process can be had, unless it leads to the destruction of Isreal altogether! Absolutely ridiculous. That is why peace will never be had while Hamas, Hezzbollah etc...are there. They are next my friend, they are next!

excuse me, but it's quite evident that neither of you two have the knowledge, understanding, capacity or humanity to resolve this little quibble Excuse me, but I know what the hell I'm talking about. I'm not making stuff up like MentalPimp. While I know you are a moderator, there comes a time where you just have to pick a side, especially on an important topic like this. I have the balls to say and let it be known where I stand, just like Pimp. Let's here it from the rest of this forum where you all stand. I'm not here to make friends. If some jerkoff is going to spout off by saying killing innocent civilians is just dandy with him and lie by saying they are just following attacks made by Israeli's...I'm not going to shut up about that. And neither should any of you. Come on Wakeech where do you stand???? Don't tell me in the middle, have the nuts to pick a side. This situation has been going on long enough and you've seen both sides from both US and foreign news sources. You have to have an opinion, what is it?

BTW, this is to 8_WANNABE. By your last post, I get that you don't agree with MENTAL PIMP. Congrats on taking a side, however it wasn't in the grandest fashion :-) But me and you obviously disagree on the war etc... So I though I'd show this to you. Check out these webpages on Clinton addressing the US on the need to attack Iraq in Operation Desert Fox. Anything similar to what President Bush stated?? It's all political and that is a shame when people make decisions based soley on politics.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/clinton/


That is all. Can't wait for all your responses.

The True Hue

Oh BTW for this webpage: http://www.ict.org.il/

Click international terrorism and then profiles for international groups. Or click Arab-Israeli Conflict and then profiles for only those organizations.

I have a simple solution. In fact it's the only solution. Either the Israelis or Palestinians needs to be completely wiped off the face of the earth. I'm serious. I have been there, I know the people. This is not a recent debate or war. These two peoples have been at war since there Biblical forefathers were beget by Abraham (well Sarah:D ). There will NEVER be peace untill either God comes down and puts an end to it, or one side or the other is destroyed. This isn't my opinion. It's fact. Wasn't it Saddam Hussein who stated at a conference awhile back (and forgive me, I have to paraphrase this, as I can't remember the exact quote) "There will be no peace in Palestien untilll Israel is pushed back into the sea". Believe what you want, but if you read your history books, it's quite obvious that Israel has been supernaturally protected and preserved and that NO ONE is going to destroy them. The Palestinians aren't going to budge any time soon (they haven't in several thousand years). Bottom line: I'm glad I'm not the President, because this is one of those hopeless messes that requires some attention, but nothing will fix. At least not permenately. :D Oh, and people, please use facts if your are going to debate, or try too at least. This emotional argumentation has got to go. Innoncent people are killed all of the time on both sides. War is hell. That doesn't make either side right or wrong though. They both have valid arguments, and they will both continue to fight as long as they are alive to do so.

Originally posted by wakeech
excuse me, but it's quite evident that neither of you two have the knowledge, understanding, capacity or humanity to resolve this little quibble: i suggest the two of you cool it, this is a place for friendly discussion.

the conflict is far, far more complex and far reaching than either of you obviously understand. the solution to this sincerely terrible conflict will be neither instant, easy, nor something which will please either side, nor will arguing like this on a public automotive forum on the internet help.

if you want to express your views, fine. be civil, present factual information, present it well, and do your best to be unbiased and understanding... the truth's somewhere "between the median and the mean"... just go between the bull's horns.

I agree with wakeech here. The conflict is so old and complex that no-one can really say how it started or who started it. Both Israel and the Palestinians are guilty of attrocities, and pretending that attrocities on either side are solely in response to those of the opposite side is pattently false.

Right now it appears that some progress is being made, thanks in large part to the new Palestinian Prime Minister, Abbas. And the only reason there is a new Palestinian Prime Minister is that President Bush refused to deal with Arafat.

The Palestinians need to reign in Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aksa Martirs Brigade, disarm them and arrest them. The Palestinians also need to stop glorifying suicide bombers in the official media and their popular culture.

The Israelis need to exercise some self-control and stop making incursions into Palestinian territory every time a suicide bomber comits murder. The Israelis need to let the Palestinians arrest terrorists, and the Palestinians need to actually arrest the terrorists. The Israelis also need to abandon the settlements and pull the army back from Palestinian towns.

The problem is that there has been so much blood on both sides that neither side is willing to make the first move. And that is understandable. But if there is ever to be peace between the two, BOTH will have to learn to compromise and not demand the righting of old wrongs. Easier said than done, obviously.

It is also a FACT that the majority of international terrorist groups claim to be Muslim. My Muslim friends tell me that the Koran does not condone terrorism in any way, and I tend to believe them. I'm a Christian, and I'm disgusted at the way in which people have twisted the Bible to justify their terrorism (IRA, KKK, The Orange Order, so on...).

However, "Muslim" terrorists have always hidden among Muslim communities in the US and Europe. Therefore, Muslim communities need to turn the bastards over to the authorities when they see that these guys (the terrorists) are up to no good. Historically, Muslims in the US and Europe have NOT turned terrorists over to the authorities and have even helped them to hide from the FBI, MI5 and so on. That needs to change.

tell me something are the babies that are killed by the israeli soldiers terrorist? are the women and children terrorist?
the suicide bombings is a pay back to wat the isreali people are doing, keep the quran our of this, the quran has nothing to do wit this, the quran has nothing to do wit 9/11, palestinians dont have anything to do wit 9/11 either, if u wanna hate palestinians go ahead

Originally posted by mental pimp
tell me something are the babies that are killed by the israeli soldiers terrorist? are the women and children terrorist?
the suicide bombings is a pay back to wat the isreali people are doing, keep the quran our of this, the quran has nothing to do wit this, the quran has nothing to do wit 9/11, palestinians dont have anything to do wit 9/11 either, if u wanna hate palestinians go ahead

First of all, who the hell are you talking to?

No one said Palestinian babies are terorrists. But, are Israeli babies terrorists? Israelis claim that their military attacks are in response to Palestinian bombers murdering innocent Israelis. And round and round we go.

Like I said, BOTH sides are guilty of atrocities and need to make tough compromises and sacrifices for the sake of peace. Your refusal to admit that suicide bombings are atrocities and part of the problem is precicely what will keep the Palestinian people from achieving peace and security.

No one said the Palestinians had anthing to do with 9/11. But terrorism is terrorism and all of it needs to be stopped, whether the perpetrators are Palestinian, Israeli, Basque, Irish, Colombian, Corsican, Yemeni, Japanese, American... whatever. They all need to be stopped. And the Palestinian people need to stop the terrorists among them, otherwise no progress will ever be made.

well its the israelies fault for starting it, they wanted more land so they decided to wipe out thousands of palestinians, suicide bombing i support because it shows that palestinians also fight back, not too mnay israeli children die, and if they die, its nothin compared to the abuse that israeli soldiers do to palestinian children, palestinians are just fighthing back and theres nothing wrong wit that

Originally posted by mental pimp
well its the israelies fault for starting it, they wanted more land so they decided to wipe out thousands of palestinians, suicide bombing i support because it shows that palestinians also fight back, not too mnay israeli children die, and if they die, its nothin compared to the abuse that israeli soldiers do to palestinian children, palestinians are just fighthing back and theres nothing wrong wit that

You're proving my point for me, and for that I thank you. But your thinking is part of the problem, and it's not going to get any of us anywhere except into more killing.

Listen to yourself. You sound like a little kid complaining "he hit me first." And if I ask an Israeli, he would say, "it's the Palestinian's fault!" That is the problem!

Let me boil this down for you.

A couple months ago the Israelis tried to kill a spokesman for Hamas. I don't have a problem with killing terrorists, but I do have a problem with the way they did it. They fired 4 Hellfire missiles at his car in the middle of a crowded street, which injured and killed a bunch of Palestinians. To make matters worse, they failed to kill the terrorist.

That was morally wrong (not to mention strategically stupid). They should have used a different method or waited until a time that would ensure no collateral damage.

So, are you telling me it was morally right for a Palestinian to blow up a pizza restaurant full of Israeli school kids? That did happen, by the way.

So, was it morally right? Yes, or no?

no its not right, actually both the isralies and palestinians are wrong, but like any palestinian i have to stick wit the palestinains, but yes i do agree wit u

Well, at least we're getting somewhere. Maybe people like you on both sides can end the carnage some day soon.

The conflict in Israel is old but not very old. It dates from 1948. Muslims and Jews have a long history of cooperation and Mutual understanding. And both have been prosecuted by the inquisition.

Both Jews and Palestinians have blood on there hands.

Both Jews and Palestinians have age-old claims on the land of Israel/Palestine.

No Jew has ever killed a Palestinian because he is a Palestinian no Palestinian has ever killed a Jew because he is a Jew. They are just fighting for the same place under the same sky.

There is an easy solution for the problem: The conflict will be resolved if every Palestinian has the same rights as every Jew.

It is possible and it is easy. But the Israeli government does not want it and the radical Palestinians want to send the Jews "back to where they come from".

I can't go on arguing with this ignorant fool. All I have to say is this:

suicide bombing i support because it shows that palestinians also fight back, This is why we all hate people like you.

tell me something are the babies that are killed by the israeli soldiers terrorist? Not the Israeli soldiers aren't terrorists. They are not listed on any terror list in the world. You see, again, the difference is that suicide bombers purposely seek out highly populated areas to kill innocent people with no political association. Then in retaliation, Israeli soldiers seek out palestinian terrorists, or extremist leaders to kill. If a palestinian child gets in the way, while unfortunate, you brough it upon yourself. You are in such denial that you aren't able to see that you are hurting your own people. Show my ONE, just ONE, exerpt or article that says Israeli soldiers sought after innocent civilian targets to kill. It has never never never, ever happened. And it will never happen. Too bad the same can't be said for your side.

Let me challenge you to this. There hasn't been bombing in awhile. But, unfortunately there inevitably will be one. do you think the first attack will come from a Palestinian or an Israeli? Hmmmm, let me this about that one. I guarantee you, and deep down inside whatever excuse for a soul you have you realize it too, that the first attack will be by a Palestinian. And only then will Israel retaliate on a polical target. If a child gets killed in a way, quit your crying, because that child died because of your dumbass leaders, brainwashing people to blow themselves up in a civilain neighborhood.

actually both the isralies and palestinians are wrong, but like any palestinian i have to stick wit the palestinains Another dumb statement by you. Even here of anything called morals?!?! If I was palestinian and I found out that a fellow palestinian murdered innocent people (of whatever religion or race) I would NOT back that person up. I would think that their actions were dispicable. But no. People like you support that sh*t. Way to go.

And to Sheylen:

no Palestinian has ever killed a Jew because he is a Jew. What the hell are you talking about? What planet do you live on? That is exactly why suicide bombings happen!

And to Schneegz, I agree with almost everything you said but:

And the only reason there is a new Palestinian Prime Minister is that President Bush refused to deal with Arafat.
Would you deal with Arafat? He has admitted that he will not accept any peace accord without it resulting in the non-existence of Israel. As I said previously. In fall of 2000 Barak was willing to concede to make the most attractive offer it can to the Palestinians, including an independent state, all of Gaza, almost all of the West Bank, and some kind of arrangement for Arab neighborhoods of east Jerusalem! Holy crapola! What the hell was Barak thinking? By the majority of the political historians from around THE WORLD, Barak was willing to concede too much. But did Arafat accept? No HE TURNED IT DOWN! There is no sense wasting time with Arafat he supports and funds terrorist organization (and yes it IS a proven fact, pimp). Good ridence.

The only way this will end will be with the education on the youth on not hating Americans and Jews and with the destruction of Hamas, Hezbollah and other oraganizations like them. Where is Al-Queda now? Hopefully soon Hamas et al will join them.

MAN-O-MAN. I just looked up Mental Pimp's profile. He is 14! You don't sh*t about yourself let alone the world. This is a PRIME reason the education of the youth is of principle importance. PIMP's mommy and daddy has taught him this crap. For that I can't fault him. PIMP, after you reach puberty and learn about the birds and the bees, educate yourself about the world.

Sorry, about the grammar in my last post. I get pretty hot about this stuff and I can't believe I'm arguing with a 14 year old.

Okay, that's enough. It's degraded past opinions to insults.

---jps