This is a bloody long post so I have numbered the paragraphs in case anyone wants to discuss a particular point...

Thought I would test drive the Subaru WRX STi and the Mitsubishi EVO 8 to see how they stack up with the RX-8 and Infiniti G35. There is a dealership in Houston that sell both Subaru and Mistubishi (and Honda) in different buildings. I have spoken to different salesguys in both of them before.

SUBARU
So I got a call from David at Subaru saying they had two STis in and I should come and look at them. They want $3k over MSRP for them... So I toddle over after work. There is the ubiquitous blue with gold wheels and a silver with silver wheels parked in the back:

1. The hood scoop is HUGE (I am talking frontal blind spot) and UGLY

2. The car is not as good looking as I thought it would be ;). To be precise it is awful from front, back and sides (did not check top or bottom). Hate the wing.

3. Sat in it - thought it was much cheaper and lower quality than an EVO I had sat in before. Really hated the $145 armrest extension which every STi has to raise the armrest - looks really odd. Seats were OK, headliner and plastics were yucky, space was OK. No radio, other controls were cheap and tiny. Hate the long-throw, sloppy gearshift.

4. Asked for test drive and was told I would have to go through the paperwork to buy it first to show I was serious. I laughed and said how can I be serious until I drive it (note I was the ONLY customer in the dealership so they are not too busy, I was dressed smartly and I am pretty old). I mentioned I had financing approved for $36k at PeoplesFirst and was getting a car within a few weeks and had already tested the G35 and RX-8. Salesguy went to check with manager, came back and said no test drive, but offered me a test drive in a regular WRX (40 in stock, selling for invoice).

5. Drove the WRX - my first time in a turbo car. The turbo lag was truly HORRIBLE - no action at all from idle up to 3500rpm and then the turbo kicked in to give reasonable performance (less than G35). Went nicely around corners but the tires squealed much earlier than I expected. Clutch was horrible (not linear) and gearstick was notchy and thows too long, brakes were soft but worked OK. Interior was truly awful quality, much worse than the STi or even Kias/Hyundais I have rented. Halfway through the test drive I said there is no way I would ever buy a WRX and I refused the offer to take it home for a few days for a longer test drive.

6. Back at the dealership I asked again about driving the STi, David 'checked with his manager' and said 'no' again. I asked if he knew if the Mitsubishi dealer 100 yards away had an EVO8 and he said yes. So I walked over there...

MITSUBISHI
When they got their first ever EVO (a black one) around a month ago I had popped in to look at it. The salesguy who grabbed me at the door on that day knew nothing about it, even though there was a crowd of people around it discussing it at length. All he knew was they wanted $5k over MSRP and that it was supposed to be fast. Thankfully he was no longer with the dealership - a new sales guy grabbed me before I even entered the door.

7. Told him I was looking at STi, RX-8, G35 and EVO and I was pre-approved for financing. Said I was leaning towards the RX-8 but if another car impressed me enough I would consider it. He got me to fill in the standard form and then brought his boss in.

8. This chap was good so I gave him my business card and shot the breeze a bit. After a 10 min chat he said the yellow EVO they had was sold so no test drive today, but he would try to get another one within two weeks for me to test. He asked if I would like an Eclipse instead (they are trying to give them away) - I laughed and said Mitsubishi only has one car I am interested in. We both laughed. He seemed honest and was very knowledgeable about the EVO, said it would be MSRP with no add-ons if I wanted it. I say great and left.

9. As I am walking back to my Acura MDX parked between the two dealerships he runs after to me say the car is not sold (but someone is very interested in it and has put their name on it) and I can drive it briefly. I say great and slowly follow him back.

SUBARU AGAIN
10. Suddenly David runs out of the Subaru dealership having watched all this and says I can drive the STi now. I say I am busy and he begs me to stop by after looking at the EVO.

DRIVING THE EVO
11. This car doesn't look too bad - not good but not as bad as the STi. Hate the wing, but the carbon fiber piece looks interesting. In a dark colour (black) it can look menacing in a boxy way - but in yellow it just says 'I'm young and speeding - arrest me'. The seats are wonderful, the interior (headliner, plastics, wheel, gearstick) are much higher quality than the STi. Space is about the same in both vehicles. It has a radio and rear seat center armrest with cupholders unlike the STi.

12. Started the car and moved away smoothly and easily - all controls are perfect - steering, clutch, gearshift, brakes. The RX-8 is similar and perhaps better in some areas. I felt familiar with the controls in both the RX-8 and EVO instantly, the G35 was not quite as good and had slightly heavier controls but was leagues ahead of the WRX. Note the Recaro seat only has two adjustments: recline and slide forward/back, but felt fine for my build and height. Hardly felt any turbo lag relative to the WRX and MY GOD the acceleration was like a drug. Went from idle to 7000rpm in what felt like 1 second - truly breathtaking - better than the G35. Kept slowing down so I could accelerate again. Handling and grip were awe-inspiring (but the RX-8 was the same - my personal limit is much less than either of these cars) - no doubt about it this car has performance in spades.

13. The car was so impressive I seriously thought about buying it for a while - but then the euphoria wore off. Safety features - almost nil. The car feels light and fragile, only has front airbags and doesn't feel robust enough for the speed it can achieve. If I was 10 years younger and single I would get this car for sure, but now I have other considerations than just speed. Also maintenance and reliability might be questionable, and tires and brakes will be a regular big ticket item ($300 per tire apparently).

14. The lack of luxury (my preceding new vehicles have been Lexus, Lexus and Acura) was not as big an issue as I expected, which made me realize how churlish I have been about nit-picking the RX-8 on a few items like memory seats.

15. The salesguy said he would let me know when a black car comes in and to bring my wife down to look at it - I say I love the performance of the car but it is not a great all-rounder so my wife will not like it (esp safety) but I will talk to her. We leave on good terms.

SUBARU THIRD VISIT
16. Drive slowly past the Subaru dealership, and David rushes out as I expected. Says forget the $3k markup on the STi, I can have it for MSRP. I say that's nice and it's a shame I never got to drive it earlier. He asks me to drive it now, almost pleading. I say no, I have to get home for dinner. I tell him to ring me tomorrow and if I can make time I will think about driving his car. But I tell him in parting that I will be sure to say hello to him and his manager and show them whatever new $33k car I get in a few weeks time - it's unlikely to be an STi.

CONCLUSION
17. The EVO is a great one-dimensional car, many will love it with good reason. The STi is worse quality inside than the EVO (unlike what the magazines say) and has looks that not even a mother could love. Also this Subaru dealership licks the left nut.



Sorry for the long post, but it's surprising how badly these low-end car dealerships treat potential customers. I arrived in a new $40k vehicle, I am sadly not a kid anymore (mid-30's) dress expensively (nice shirts and ties on workdays), and I could honestly say I was looking at 3-4 vehicles for a test drive and the best overall car would get my money. I know for a fact I can easily get a test drive for any Porsche, MB, BMW, Lexus, Acura, Audi, Infiniti at any time because I have done it (with no paper work, no credit check and no waiting for cars worth 3x these ones). I liked the sales manager at Mitsubishi, and perhaps he honestly did think their only EVO had sold earlier that day when he denied the the test drive initially, but the Subaru people were unbelievable.

You're so right.. many of these low-end dealers think they have the short end of the hottest little lassy in town, and only want to sell them right out of the shute. Brain dead way to do business if you ask me, and very ignorant of how more expensive cars as you mentioned get bought.

I too had a forgettable experience trying to drive an Acura RSX a while back, first guy didn't want to let me test drive, then finally he said OK, but he had to drive for a while, then I could only go like 1 mile out, then quickly back, after all don't want to put miles on it(!), AND there might be others wanting to 'try her out'. Yea right, here's you car back, pushrod.

Thankfully there are some enthusiast sales guys left, had a great EVO drive where the guy said GOGO FASTER. And I agree that acceleration is like a DRUG! What fun!

Hope the RX-8 satisfies as well... will know in a few hours as I drive mine home!! :D

Fun post, well written.

yeah, you played the Scoobie dealer perfectly... it really is too bad they've got their nose in the air for that isn't going to just sell itself, at least not if you don't get to drive it.

I stopped in at my local Mitsubishi dealership today as well! They had a black, silver & a yellow Evo VIII outside. I was really not in the mood to deal with a dealer at this time. Just wanted to gawk at em for a few. To my surprise, I and another gawking fellow were left totally alone for the whole time. Good.
The Recaro seats looked fine, but the interior seemed tight, crammed. If you're big, I would like to see you in one. I'm fairly small, would fit me like a glove. Interior materials other than those real nice seats - ordinary, nothing to write home about at all.
This is not what I would call a car of any distinction, except for its performance, which only goes so far with me. This is not my kind of car. Yep, for the younger crowd, no doubt. This car shouts "Race me, fool! Make my day." Yeah pelucidor, "I'm young and speeding - arrest me".
Front hood with air intake grill(?) is quite cool looking, along with the grill work up front, barely conceiling the radiator/coolers just behind. The front end is real nice in general, although a bit short in length it seemed to me, stubby looking.
That rear spoiler...uh. Too massive, chunky, totally mismatches the rear deck lines at the mounting points. It really looked to me like it was meant for another car.
Nice disc brakes & wheels.
Body & paint surface appearance - I dunno, maybe they just need a good buff job, subpar plainjane paint is what I'm affraid it really is.
Maybe I'll stop by again for a test drive, probably not, cuz I really am positive that it won't change my decision not to buy one. I would really like to for the fun of it, but somebody's gonna buy that car & I don't want to rain on their brand-new-car parade.

Next!

After dealing with numerous car dealers the last couple of weeks, I can honestly say they are one shady group (though there are some exceptions). I remember when the WRX first came out, I was denied a test-drive by one dealer (its a mass-produced vehicle) and it was an insult frankly. However, with cars like the EVO and STI (limited production and very high performance turbo-charged engines), I can see some hesitation in test-driving them. Personally, I went to great lengths to avoid a test-driven EVO.

That being said, I think a demo model would be a smart idea, at least at larger dealers. After about six months they can sell it to some teenager/early 20s kid for a few thousand dollars less bringing it into their price range.

Could you comment on the EVO vs. the S2000? Particularly in regards to handling, steering feel, VTEC VS. Turbo rush and overall driving dynamics? These were my top two choice (with the RX8 being the third).

See you've bought the EVO already - congratulations again. Between the S2000 and EVO - well it's tough to say. The EVO is obviously much quicker at any speed in a straight line. The turbo at 3000rpm is much more pronounced than VTEC at 5750rpm - the car feels stronger at all rpms from idle onwards (and I hit redline at every gear change). The Stook revs very fast to 9k, the EVO revs ridiculously faster to 7k. The steering of the EVO is incredible even though it's so quick, the Honda is a close second IMO. Gearchanges I would give to the S2000 - nothing beats <2" throws. Handling I don't know about - both cars put a silly grin on my face and were better than any vehicle should be. The S2000 was better build quality but had zero practicality and amenities - worst stereo ever. So far it seems I am favouring the EVO - but the S2000 is prettier, lighter (and it feels it) and best of all a convertible. I have always wanted a convertible two seater - if I didn't want the open top then definitely the EVO.

Sadly I couldn't persuade my wife to even look at the EVO - seeing pics was enough for her to vote nay, so it's out of contention.

Originally posted by pelucidor
See you've bought the EVO already - congratulations again. Between the S2000 and EVO - well it's tough to say. The EVO is obviously much quicker at any speed in a straight line. The turbo at 3000rpm is much more pronounced than VTEC at 5750rpm - the car feels stronger at all rpms from idle onwards (and I hit redline at every gear change). The Stook revs very fast to 9k, the EVO revs ridiculously faster to 7k. The steering of the EVO is incredible even though it's so quick, the Honda is a close second IMO. Gearchanges I would give to the S2000 - nothing beats <2" throws. Handling I don't know about - both cars put a silly grin on my face and were better than any vehicle should be. The S2000 was better build quality but had zero practicality and amenities - worst stereo ever. So far it seems I am favouring the EVO - but the S2000 is prettier, lighter (and it feels it) and best of all a convertible. I have always wanted a convertible two seater - if I didn't want the open top then definitely the EVO.

Sadly I couldn't persuade my wife to even look at the EVO - seeing pics was enough for her to vote nay, so it's out of contention.


Excellent analysis. That was exactly how I felt when comparing the S2K and the EVO. The two things that made the decison tough were the looks and reliability gap between the S2000 and the EVO, but in the end the factors above led me to pick the EVO.

Thanks for the comparitive analysis, well-written. Interesting to hear how disappointing the STi was, respectively. Seems like people around here are willing to set aside the interior quality and in/ex styling just for cheap/good value-performance (lots of WRXs, haven't seen an STi out there yet).

About test driving at dealerships, I got turned down to test drive a Sentra Spec-V last year, at the dealership I bought my maxima at, who originally sold it for over $30k to the first owner. It's fun the way dealerships treat a now-22 year old :(

Hi pelucidor,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Personally, I wouldn't mention that you have finacing lined up until you have actually decided to buy the car. I would only mention that you have good credit and that the vehicle is within your price range.

The F&I guys at the dealership make thousands of dollars in finacing the vehicle for you through comissions from the lending institutions. They make a lot of money trying to stick you with a high interest rate loan. Telling them before hand that you have a loan lined up at the beginning doesn't help pursuade them to do business with you it is actually a disincentive since they know they won't have a chance to screw you on finacing at the end of the sell.

I don't mention that I have pre-approved financing until after price negotiating is over when they then try to spring a 9+ percent loan on me. I say "is that the best you can do?". They always say "Yes". I then tell'em that I am already approved at 6 percent (or less these days) and watch them gulp and try and match the lower percentage rate.

On the surface it makes sense to tell them that you have $36K in finacing approved. It does tell them that you have the money but it also tells them you are a savvy buyer and will hinder your ability to talk them down during the price negotiations.

My two cents.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. That wouldn't happen to be Gillman Subaru and Mitsubishi that you are talking about? I got similar treatment from them when I tried to get an STI test drive. They said no so I walked over to test drive the EVO instead which is 20 yards away at the other dealership.

Yes it was Gillman Subaru. Sorry to hear you got the same treatment.

best amateur review ive ever read
it feels like ive driven both cars simply by reading your comments :)

Facinating, just goes to show dealers are the same the world over.

It never fails to suprise me how little some dealers know about their own cars. If that was my career i'd make damn sure i knew not only everything about my cars but as much as possible about the competition as well.

You wouldn't think that sitting down with a car mag occassionally would be such a challange for your average dealer.

Problem is, I don't think an average salesman in a dealership is paid well enough to learn. If they're more competent, they would be working on a higher paying sales job.

There are exceptions, of course, like ibfubar and budaman. But I don't think they'll be sitting in the same position for long. They should be moving up the food chain soon.

The truth of the matter is that a good sales person knows how to sell. They only need to know the basics of the vehicle because most of their clients don't know and don't want to know the finer points of the vehicle. Most people care about the colour and the number of cup holders it has, not the mpg or even the type of engine. If you go in as a couple, the husband want to know how much it will cost while the wife cares about the colour and safety.

Over on Miata.net there was a really good discussion of this by a number of vehicle salesmen that regularly meet on the board.

Vehicle enthusiasts are a different breed of car buyer but when all is said and done, are a minority that are not worth worrying over.

Originally posted by Rendezvous
best amateur review ive ever read
it feels like ive driven both cars simply by reading your comments :) Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. (Bows.)

pelucidor, I honestly think you should consider automotive journalism, because you really told that story well!!

Originally posted by Midnight Flyer
The truth of the matter is that a good sales person knows how to sell. They only need to know the basics of the vehicle because most of their clients don't know and don't want to know the finer points of the vehicle. Most people care about the colour and the number of cup holders it has, not the mpg or even the type of engine. If you go in as a couple, the husband want to know how much it will cost while the wife cares about the colour and safety.

Vehicle enthusiasts are a different breed of car buyer but when all is said and done, are a minority that are not worth worrying over.
The above might be true if one is looking at a Civic, Corolla or a Protege but when it comes to high performance, narrow purpose sports cars, most buyers ARE educated about them beforehand imo. This is why the sales people SHOULD take the time to study and learn a little more about these cars so when the time comes to sell this $30-40K, high commision, low volume car they can appear smart, knowleadgeable and educated. I know I would buy the car from the salesperson that took the time to educate him/herself over a "regular" salesperson.

The guy I bought my 8 from spent about an hour (maybe longer?) just talking about the car before we even mentioned a purchase, at the time I wasn't even serious about buying, I just wanted to look at one as the intro price had caught my eye. He explained the way the engine is mounted, the 50/50 handling, how to break it in, how to prolong the life of my a/c, all kinds of stuff and so guess who I ended up buying from? :) He was very knowledgeable, even had business cards from some of the Texas area Rotary performance shops etc.

<sidenote>
one of my fav things to do is to go to two different dealerships and find the same car- then start the games!!!! I like to have one talk to the other on MY cell while I am in the one's office- it is amazing how cheaper a car can get when two bloodsucking parasites battle each other straight-up!

The guy I bought my 8 from spent about an hour (maybe longer?) just talking about the car before we even mentioned a purchase, at the time I wasn't even serious about buying, I just wanted to look at one as the intro price had caught my eye. He explained the way the engine is mounted, the 50/50 handling, how to break it in, how to prolong the life of my a/c, all kinds of stuff and so guess who I ended up buying from? :) He was very knowledgeable, even had business cards from some of the Texas area Rotary performance shops etc.

quick ?- how do you prolong the life of your AC>?

i had some what of a similar story i drove the evo with no problem(helped mitsu.sales guy is a close friend)
but when it was time to drive the sti they gave me the down payment and i need to sign some paperwork crap.
i blew them off and never went back in there.but those cars are over priced compared to the 8 or g35. :)

kinda same topic i had an interesting experience test driving the Volkswagen R32, i actually primarily wanted to drive a 2001 S2000 they were selling, but i thought hey why not give the R32 a spin as well...anyways the dealer told me to forget about the s2000 and to give the R32 a spin (it was raining hard at the time so i figured ill try the s2000 tomorrow i guess). But as we're walking out the door the idiot manager is like no test drive without a deposit so I fill the paperwork out as if im buying the car begrudgingly, i really wasnt in the mood, but i wanted to try out the car. We go for a spin, the dealer doesnt let me go more than a mile away, and then as soon as we're back he's trying to get me to sign on the line and talk to finance. I wasnt too impressed with the car, it seemed laggy, it was ugly and i wasnt about to put down 32k on a car i wasnt in love with. Im like whoa buddy i told you im looking at a bunch of cars and im especially interested in that s2000, (this is a volkswagen/acura dealership btw) and he gets on the phone and gives some bs about the acura guys being busy or something so im like ok ill think about and i'll be back. The manager got all pissed off, i bet he was thinking that the R32 was the rarest best car on the road. three days later i buy the RX-8 and i call the VW guys asking to get my deposit back as my decision has been more than made, and the dealer was like i knew you werent going to buy, im like oh yeah well let me pick up my deposit in person. Roll up in the new RX-8 HIDs splashing the dealership in blue light and i pick up my deposit with a smirk on my face....little did he know i would of probably bought the S2000 that day if he let me drive it. dealers are so stupid sometimes.

EDIT: BTW the mazda buying experience was great, whole nother story suffice it to say i drove the car for over 2 hours, the dealer was a former porsche dealer so he knew exactly what i needed to find out about the car and we went ahead and let me play, and it was an excellent experience all around even the paperwork :)

You can get the EVO without the huge wing. It's actually optional, and the "stock" one is much smaller.

And I completely agree with you about the WRX - severe lag, numb handling feel, and vague brakes. I'm not trying to say it's a bad car, but it didn't live up to the hype.

the post is a little biased for mr

Good review, but I absolutely have to disagree on the looks.

In my eyes, the EVO is about the ugliest car on the market (Aztek quality)... I'm not sure why, but just about everything int hat car looks the wrong size or in the wrong place... I find the STi far less revolting looks-wise, but its still no beauty (this is from real-world viewings, I say they look about equal in pictures, but the EVO is far uglier in person).

The other thing about the EVO - check this months C&D- Mitsu has been researching up online on EVO owners who Solo-II their cars... and VOIDING WARRANTEE ON THEM. Now come-the-fuck-on, you're going to sell the car as a sports car, and then not let the owners compete in a tame, SCCA-sanctioned street event? Hell, Mitsu will buy your SCCA membership for you.

Disgusting... absolutely disgusting IMHO.

I think you were right about the Safty features in the EVO, about 3 months ago I witnessed an accident involving one.
I was headed down the 15, and noticed this 350z and Evo 8 blast by going at least 110 if not more. The Evo driver comes up on a minivan in the fast lane and tries to intimidate it into changing lanes, well. he got his wish the minivan changed lanes, but it happened right as the Evo tried to downshift and go around without using his blinker, The Evo swerved right towards the Z, the Z swerved and lost control did a 360 while the Evo over compensated and ran into the minivan nearly sideways. they ended up turning 180 degrees (the evo ended up facing forward and the minivan was facing backwards) and slid along the concrete rail. the 350 started back up, flipped a U and took off on the 52. The Evo had all of its windows busted out and it looked like airbags didn't even deploy, it was crushed like a tin can on the sides. If I recall correctly they had to get out using the windows. I stayed and gave the statement to the cops and he said 'So basicly what you're saying is the Mitsu driver was a dumbass' I replied 'Heh basicly' he laughed and said 'Maybe I'll just put that down on my report to save some space'

Great write up.

I had a very similar, negative experience at Subaru (WRX and STI), Nissan (350Z), and Acura (RSX and TSX) dealerships. Mitsubishi (Evo VIII), Honda (Accord coupe), Infiniti (G35), and BMW (3 and 5 series) were all pretty good. Mistubishi doesn't deserve to go out of business if they keep this up.

Good review, but I absolutely have to disagree on the looks.

In my eyes, the EVO is about the ugliest car on the market (Aztek quality)... I'm not sure why, but just about everything int hat car looks the wrong size or in the wrong place... I find the STi far less revolting looks-wise, but its still no beauty (this is from real-world viewings, I say they look about equal in pictures, but the EVO is far uglier in person).

The other thing about the EVO - check this months C&D- Mitsu has been researching up online on EVO owners who Solo-II their cars... and VOIDING WARRANTEE ON THEM. Now come-the-fuck-on, you're going to sell the car as a sports car, and then not let the owners compete in a tame, SCCA-sanctioned street event? Hell, Mitsu will buy your SCCA membership for you.

Disgusting... absolutely disgusting IMHO.

Well said, and I agree 100%.

I am not excited about the looks of either car, but man, the EVO is truly horrible.

The truth of the matter is that a good sales person knows how to sell. They only need to know the basics of the vehicle because most of their clients don't know and don't want to know the finer points of the vehicle. Most people care about the colour and the number of cup holders it has, not the mpg or even the type of engine. If you go in as a couple, the husband want to know how much it will cost while the wife cares about the colour and safety.

Over on Miata.net there was a really good discussion of this by a number of vehicle salesmen that regularly meet on the board.

Vehicle enthusiasts are a different breed of car buyer but when all is said and done, are a minority that are not worth worrying over.

You're probably right. I've heard a lot of my friends and family spout completely inaccurate statements about all sorts of vehicles.

I felt familiar with the controls in both the RX-8 and EVO instantly... MY GOD the acceleration was like a drug.

I second that. I drove the Evo, WRX, TSX, RSX-S, GLI and RX-8... and the 8 and Evo were the only cars I instantly felt at home with. Two minutes down the road and I felt like I'd been driving them for years, everything just seemed to natural and perfect. The others are great cars too, but I never quite felt comfortable with them.

LOL, that Evo accleration and GRIP... oh my... yea, I did the same thing: slow down, floor it... slow down, floor it... lol. It's great fun - for awhile. I'm guessing that the novelty of being slammed into the rear seat would wear off eventually. Or maybe not, lol...

In the end, the lack of safety features (poor side impact ratings, no side airbags) vetoed the Evo for me.

And then there's that little issue with the clutch...