today i went into petit racing and put my car on the dyno.. My rx-8 only got 173.8 HP to thr wheels.. i think someone might of lyed.. Anyone else no anything about this.. All the rotary tech's. were amazed by it and my car is going into some magazine with the specs.

Please tell me its an auto (that would be around an 18% loss which is normal)

if you take his dyno # and do the math (add 10 and divide by .88) you get 208.86 which is dead on considering the engine is still green and allowing for the usual errors due to air temp, tire pressure, etc. If, however, that is a dyno reading from the 247bhp engine well... shit.

Whaaa???:confused:

Those drivetrain losses are almost as bad as an AWD if not more!!

At what RPM. Isn't there a graph you could scan showing the results through the range. Do you just plop down money, and wait in the waiting room for a word of mouth response from the tech.

Ok, this thread scared me so I looked at adamp's old posts and he DOES have an auto. The dyno results are spot on for the 210bhp engine.

pheewww .... thanks for clarification OrangeBingo :-)

smelled it...thank god!
speaking of which, drove it today!

ill post something else though
________
The cigar boss (http://thecigarboss.com/)

ah yes thank you for clearing that up

Originally posted by adamp316
today i went into petit racing and put my car on the dyno.. My rx-8 only got 173.8 HP to thr wheels.. i think someone might of lyed.. Anyone else no anything about this.. All the rotary tech's. were amazed by it and my car is going into some magazine with the specs.

my heart skipped a beat.....please provide full information when stating things like this.....i don't even have my car yet to judge it myself......

thanks "orangebingo" for the clarification.......

hmm i got to thinking and came up with something:)

Technically, since we know the WHP of the auto is 174 and the BHP is 210, im guessing that we can pretty confidently say that this car recieves about a 17.14285714285714286% drivetrain loss. Now i don't know whether or not auto drivetrain losses are different from manual, but if we applied this percentage to 250 bhp we would come out with about 207 whp, correct? :D :confused: :D

Sorry to scare you guys again but Adam's car is the manual version. He had originally orderred an auto. But he later changed his mind. And through misfortune and/or dumb luck he was able to snag an unsold 6spd silver GT. I was there when he picked it up. His car is in the pics in my other post.

Well, once mine is broken in (assuming it ever arrives), it'll be going on the dyno, too. Got a call from the Service and Parts Manager at the dealership, who has been contacted by someone who's looking into producing aftermarket parts and wants to establish a baseline. :)

But apropos of the low numbers obtained by adamp's car, I have to ask whether it's even been fully broken in. In my past experience, rotaries loosen up considerably after proper break-in.

ooo thanks for clearing that up good duck :)

hmm maybe adam's car isnt broken in yet?

Isn't adamp316, the originator of this thread going to say anything else? He ought to apollagise for stirring this up without all the facts.

Thanks for the informative post

Originally posted by Good Duck
Sorry to scare you guys again but Adam's car is the manual version. He had originally orderred an auto. But he later changed his mind. And through misfortune and/or dumb luck he was able to snag an unsold 6spd silver GT. I was there when he picked it up. His car is in the pics in my other post.


Well then...shit. (again)

Good Duck, you are 100% sure about this? The typical frictional loss for a RWD car in the 200-300bhp range is 17%. The math works out perfectly. It just seems to be too coincidental for the 247bhp version to be putting out the dyno #s one would expect of the 210bhp version.

Anyone with greater knowledge in this area please chime in!

I have connections with a dyno in Austin so whoever gets their car broken in first let me know.

If that horsepower is true then I smell trouble with Mazda.
Remember the class action suit brought against Kia for overstating the horsepower in its 2001-2002 Kia Optima mid-size sedan. Also just recently the Hyundai tiburon 03 model. They offered free extended warranties for overstating horsepower.

If it was the high-power, that equates to a nearly 29.635% loss!!!! This hardly seems likely whether it is broken in or not.

NEED MORE DYNOS!!!

Originally posted by colin204
If that horsepower is true then I smell trouble with Mazda.
Remember the class action suit brought against Kia for overstating the horsepower in its 2001-2002 Kia Optima mid-size sedan. Also just recently the Hyundai tiburon 03 model. They offered free extended warranties for overstating horsepower.

Dont forget the '99 Ford Mustang Cobra scandal. Ford had to pay to have the bhp brought up to the stated 320. Wait, Ford owns Mazda! Oh... shit.

You don't have to go as far as KIA or Ford to look at over stated hp numbers. Remember the Mazda Miata thing? Also, could this be a stuck port thing? I dunno. I would reneg this to being not yet broken in.

This thread is worthless. SOME info would be nice!

I'm pretty certain Adam has the 6spd. He pick it up Monday's night. Wednesday's morning he PM me saying he has close to 350 miles on it. I don't how many miles were on his car when he dyno'ed it. But I don't think it's fully broken-in yet.

Don't start to panic guys. His number is just one car with one dyno. It is not an indication of anything and certainly is not a trend by any stretch. There's too many other unknown factors we don't know about. Wait for more numbers to come in. If nothing else, put your trust in your butt dyno.

There is no f'ing way that the 247HP version would dyno that low, broken in or not. Especially given that mazda went out of its way to make a carbon fiber drive shaft and a lighter flywheel. If that was a 6spd, the must have screwed up the dyno. Not to mention all the reviews were right about the same interms of 0-60 times 5.8-6.0, which your not going to get from a 173 HP and the assumed torque loss. taken into account the fact that the loss matches perfectly with the AT version, I call bullshit

you know how floridians are with numbers,cant count.:D (just kidding)

first off my car is the 6sp.. second of off i have the print outs... third of all i have 600 miles on it and it is pretty broken in.. Im friends with the owner of the dyno and unless his dyno was broken or my specific car is off then those numbers are correct gentleman... some of yall are gettin mad at the wrong person.. i aighnt apoligizin' for scit..... ANywayz good duck was right on the money with all his replies... It maxed horspeower at 88.3 mph. he reved it up in third gear and 4th gear.. HE even did somethin to the air intake and it added an extra 4 horsepower...Take what u want from this thread but dont start hatin on me..... go test is for your self... im out reppin the DIRTY..

Hi Adam,

Could you scan the output and post to the Tech Garage? It would be greatly appreciated. Did you return to the dearlership and asked them if there was anything wrong with the car?

Thanks,

adam,

No one is trying to give you a hard time. We are simply looking for more info. Try not to take it personal.

If you could scan the dyno chart, that would be most excellent.

-Mr. Wigggles

Per the RX-8 press event:



Q "How much horse power does it make to the rear wheels?"

A "About 204-207."


Link (http://rotarynews.com/view.php?id=193)


Something isn't right with your car or Mazda is lying.

We'll just have to wait until people get their car and start their own verification. Perhaps some one at mazda put the lower version into that car (it only take a person in their sleep to do it) :D I can't wait until mine is broken in and bring it in for a dyno, then to the track. ;)

calm down guys. i would take that dyno with a grain of sand. i remember when the evo first came out, some stupid tuner dynoed it and got 180hp when all the other tuners were getting much higher. this dyno is simply wrong. just wait for more dyno results, i am positive they will show the true hp.

Originally posted by tribal azn2
calm down guys. i would take that dyno with a grain of sand. i remember when the evo first came out, some stupid tuner dynoed it and got 180hp when all the other tuners were getting much higher. this dyno is simply wrong. just wait for more dyno results, i am positive they will show the true hp.

I wouldn't dismiss the dyno that quickly.

-Mr. Wigggles

Well something's not right, either his car or the dyno.:confused:

Hmmmm, could it be the dreaded sticky port issue is not really resolved? Or, is it possible that a 207 hp engine was wrongly mated to a 6 spd MT in some production line screw up?

It just seems too odd that a supposed 247 hp engine dynos like a 207 hp one.:mad:

Adam,

Don't take this as a wiseass question, please.

Did they turn off the DSC? Assuming you have DSC.

If not then the dyno run is useless since the traction control will attempt to regulate power output as the front wheels aren't turning at all compared to the rears spinning like crazy.

Also, with DSC you need to be careful as many of the legal departments (including Ford) are demanding that the off switch not be a true off switch. Just that it makes the system less obtrusive. So, the DSC and TC are always there working behind the scenes.


Thanks

Originally posted by RomanoM
Also, with DSC you need to be careful as many of the legal departments (including Ford) are demanding that the off switch not be a true off switch. Just that it makes the system less obtrusive. So, the DSC and TC are always there working behind the scenes.



1 press to switch 'off' unless ABS comes into play 6 second press and hold to completly disable DSC until you restart car.

Dyno's are only good to compare against their own results and at that time, if the car peforms (*i.e. goes as quick as it should on the roads) then who cares?

We definitely need to see that dyno chart. It would let us know if the ports were actually stuck and maybe if the DSC was on during the run. Also, I would like the details on the dyno shop you were using. What are his procedures on dynoing the car? How many pulls? Hood up/hood down? What kind of dyno was it? What gear did he use for the actual pull? How did he varify the accuracy of his temperature and altitude adjustment sensors?

There are alot of ways to make a dyno lie and if an owner doesn't know what he's doing, it can really screw up the the results.

Originally posted by RobDickinson



1 press to switch 'off' unless ABS comes into play 6 second press and hold to completly disable DSC until you restart car.



Just FYI - Since the control software decides all these things and since only the Mazda and brake supplier actually know for sure this is just FYI.

But. many systems I've worked on when I was brake engineer NEVER actually turned off at all. They simply went into different states. Even the systems that claimed if you hold the button down or hit twice, etc., never actually shut off. They would intrude at very high thresholds, but they will intrude. The Jags for instance are set up as such. Even the Corvette keeps the yaw control working all the time, albeit at a very high threshold, since the car is so easy to spin under power.

Again, I am NOT saying the RX-8 is set up this way!

Isn't there some other place on the forum where there is a link where they are hooking the engine directly up to a dyno?

Maybe we should wait for those results, since they will completely take drivetrain losses out of the picture.

Adam,

my comments were not directed at you personally, your numbers are what they are, and you had nothing to do with them other than paying for your dyno. After having looked at many dyno's including the RX-7, I see no reason why it should be this low. I would consider taking your car to another place with your first dyno and see if they could run you (hell they might do it for free just to see your car). Make sure A/C, DSC, traction control everything is turned off

One dyno test does not a scientific result make.

sounds a little strange to me...and i dont really know all that much about it...but since "normal" losses are around 17% and his loss was somewhere near... 26% i think it was, something cannot be right...

anyway, theyll be a lot more dynos soon so well know...
i really doubt mazda has screwed anything up, they have too much riding on this car and have been testing it for too long to have something like this happen, i think its just some human error and nothing to worry about at all
________
New mexico medical marijuana dispensary (http://newmexico.dispensaries.org/)

Originally posted by adamp316
i have 600 miles on it and it is pretty broken in


Bwaaaahahahahaha!!! It's barely to the point where you can start using full revs. "Broken in" in terms of an engine producing it's full rated power usually takes a few thousand miles. There's plenty of cars out there that are well known to need over 5000 miles before they 'loosen up'.

Try it again when you have 6 thousand miles on it, not 6 hundred. Oh, and turn off the DSC. Your current dyno test was pretty much useless. No, actually - it will be useful to illustrate just how much extra power it is making after it really is broken in.

PS - drivetrain losses are not a straight percentage. For a given drivetrain there will be certain fixed losses, and then if adding additional power beyond a certain level there can be variable losses. For example, thousands of dyno runs on Miatas have shown that drivetrain losses (flywheel to rear wheel) run around 26 hp. NOT 20% or any percentage. So if flywheel HP is 116, it dynos at 90 hp. If flywheel HP is 128, it dynos at 102. If you add a turbo and are producing double the HP, then there are losses beyond 26 hp, but it doesn't jump to 52 HP in drivetrain losses as you'd expect if using a simple percentage number to estimate the losses.

Regards,
Gordon

1) Adam...don't take any of the above comments personally. People's negative reactions were at the incredibly low number, not at you.

2) I remember when I dyno'ed my car the tech told me it wasn't possible to dyno the E46 M3 correctly. It had a sensor at the front wheel that detects rotation, and if there was no rotation than it cuts off fuel at a certain RPM.

Adam...did you notice when you dyno'ed that the car it was cutting out before redline? Or did it seem like it was lagging a little?

Also what gear were you in? You want to be in the gear that is closest to the 1:1 ratio between engine speed and drive train speed (which according to the Mazda site is 5th gear!!!...wow).

Originally posted by Gord96BRG




PS - drivetrain losses are not a straight percentage. For a given drivetrain there will be certain fixed losses, and then if adding additional power beyond a certain level there can be variable losses. For example, thousands of dyno runs on Miatas have shown that drivetrain losses (flywheel to rear wheel) run around 26 hp. NOT 20% or any percentage. So if flywheel HP is 116, it dynos at 90 hp. If flywheel HP is 128, it dynos at 102. If you add a turbo and are producing double the HP, then there are losses beyond 26 hp, but it doesn't jump to 52 HP in drivetrain losses as you'd expect if using a simple percentage number to estimate the losses.

Regards,
Gordon

The typical loss for a RWD car producing RX-8-esque horsepower is 17%. Yes, this percentage does vary depending on a number of things, but not by much. And the formula just happens to be slightly more complex than you seem to realize, one does not simply double the frictional losses when the horsepower doubles. Geeze, did you really make me say that? I would have thought it was self explanatory.

I don't see it as a big deal if the car only produces 174rwhp, just as long as it performs similarly to what the various magazines tested the car at. Just my thoughts.

At the same time, my concern would be whether my personal car was not mechanically sound, or if Mazda's factory information is not correct. The last thing Mazda needs is a scandal, and I assume every one on this forum can agree on that.

again... they didn't put the 207 hp engine in mine.. there is 3 ports. the automatic only has 2 ports. Second i told you that they dynoed it in 3rd and 4th gear. And they weren't stupid, they dynoed it with the dsc abs off and the ac off. ANd for all you who think i payed.. i didn't. the tech was so happy to see one and look at it he put it on there for free. I cant go back to my dealer because its in orlando and i live in Boca. I cant scan the results because im not home. Im in key largo and well the results are in boca raton.. I got it dynoed at petit racing so u can call for your self if u dont believe me. they only do rotary engines. they specialize and make these rotory's called banzai's or something.. they produce like 550 HP. that should answer most of your questions. i should be back tonight and try to scan it

That can't be right. Either because it's not broken in yet, and at 600 miles it is NOT, or the dsc was on or the dyno was setup wrong. Preludes have 195-200hp and dyno around 160whp.

Thanks for taking the time to post while traveling.

As a couple of people mentioned, your engine won't be making full power for a few thousand more miles yet.

I know of once instance where a guy dyno's his eclipse right after he got it and came up with about 110hp to the wheels (for a 200hp car).

You *will* know when the motor wakes up; you'll be driving around one day and you'll be wondering why the car feels like it's kicking some ass all the sudden. ;) It takes a couple thousand miles, and while it won't wake up instantly, it is pretty quick process once it starts.

Originally posted by OrangeBingo
Yes, this percentage does vary depending on a number of things, but not by much. And the formula just happens to be slightly more complex than you seem to realize, one does not simply double the frictional losses when the horsepower doubles. Geeze, did you really make me say that? I would have thought it was self explanatory.

So, first you say it's a percentage... then you say it's not a percentage. That's very self-explanatory, thanks! ;) The use of a percentage should apply when it's actually a percentage - sure, you can divide any number by another and express the result as a percentage, but unless it truly is a fixed percentage which would be scalable, then that's an entirely inappropriate use of that function. To say "powertrain loss is 17%" means that it's 17% at 116 flywheel HP or 17% at 232 flywheel hp. If it's NOT (and it seems we both agree that it's not), then expressing powertrain loss as a percentage is just plain wrong. It's not more complex than I seem to realize - that's why I initially wrote to say it's not just a percentage, because I do understand that it's complex.

However, I've been through this debate on several other forums (especially on the Miataforum), and I know that it's pointless to argue this just like it's pointless to argue religion! ;) So I'll leave it at this.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by adamp316
again... they didn't put the 207 hp engine in mine.. there is 3 ports. the automatic only has 2 ports. Second i told you that they dynoed it in 3rd and 4th gear. And they weren't stupid, they dynoed it with the dsc abs off and the ac off. ANd for all you who think i payed.. i didn't. the tech was so happy to see one and look at it he put it on there for free. I cant go back to my dealer because its in orlando and i live in Boca. I cant scan the results because im not home. Im in key largo and well the results are in boca raton.. I got it dynoed at petit racing so u can call for your self if u dont believe me. they only do rotary engines. they specialize and make these rotory's called banzai's or something.. they produce like 550 HP. that should answer most of your questions. i should be back tonight and try to scan it
I'm just stupid about such things, but how do you know for sure your engine is the 3 port 247 hp one (other than the fact that the 6 spd is "suppose" to have it)? Can you tell by the external look of the engine? I didn't think they looked any different from the 207 hp one on the outside. Or did the dyno results show something to indicate 3 ports? Actually, I'd be more concerned about the 3rd ports opening correctly, as the pre-prod cars had this problem.

Also, you seem to be more upset with this forum than the actual results. Are you pleased that your car will be in a mag write up? That's the last thing I'd want with such crappy dyno readings. If I were your shoes, I'd march right back to the dealer, slam down the dyno results, and demand Mazda fly in their top engineers to find out what's wrong with your car!

Why not do a couple of 0-60 runs to see how close you can get to 5.9 secs. That would give you another data point to see if your engine has a problem.

actually what i'm wondering is, why is he putting a brand new, non-broken-in engine through the stress of a dyno run???

isn't that sort of damaging to the engine????

probably, its gotta at least be "bad" for it lol
________
Az Engine (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_AZ_engine)

meh, i guess the longevity of the car lies in the hands of the owner, depending on how he/she cares for it.... :o

Originally posted by Gord96BRG


So, first you say it's a percentage... then you say it's not a percentage. That's very self-explanatory, thanks! ;) The use of a percentage should apply when it's actually a percentage - sure, you can divide any number by another and express the result as a percentage, but unless it truly is a fixed percentage which would be scalable, then that's an entirely inappropriate use of that function.

It seems that we may be arguing semantics here. We both seem to agree that parasitic loss through the drive train cannot be calculated exactly through some magical standardized percentage. However, as most FWD, RWD and AWD cars respectively lose (I am, of course, using the word "lose" loosely) a similar amount of power at the wheels, one can apply a basic percentage, based on drive train and bhp, to derive an approximation of power lost. Using a percentage that varies very little between cars of similar drive trains is entirely appropriate as the percentage is based on sound data.


ps. Sorry, I get defensive very easily.

Look, the important thing to remember is that (as has been stated above) the RX-8 wouldn't achieve the performance statistics that owners prove it does if the car and dyno in this test are representative. Something is not right but it's not with the generic RX-8.

Are we sure that the figure wasn't 173.8 kilowatts?

hmmmmmmmmmmmm an intriguing proposition...
________
Make Vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net)

how many kW to 1 hp?

1kW = 1.34100HP

173.8kW = 233.066HP

Mazda has a history of over rating their cars. My mazda6i makes 126 hp to the wheel when the engine is rated at 160 hp. Why don't manuf. release number as to what the car makes to the wheels? The HP at crank is usless to me!!!:confused: Does a rotorary engine have to be broken in the same way a piston engine does? I mean thought their were less moving parts.:confused:

All in all I'm still holding out hope for a Mazda Speed rx-8 :D :D :D

My two cents:

First, you need to identify if the power claim by the manufacturer is at the flywheel or at the drive wheels. If measured on a chassis dyno then you are only registering approximately 80 percent of the flywheel number, the rest is lost to friction, heat and pumping losses. Lesson two is when dealing with engines, as "one plus one plus one" does not always equal three; sometimes it adds up to two or four.

re: Mods Since a systems approach needs to be taken when choosing modifications to any engine, the total power improvement is only equal to the difference the part provides, less any weak links.

:D

Originally posted by Red Devil
I don't see it as a big deal if the car only produces 174rwhp, just as long as it performs similarly to what the various magazines tested the car at. Just my thoughts.

At the same time, my concern would be whether my personal car was not mechanically sound, or if Mazda's factory information is not correct. The last thing Mazda needs is a scandal, and I assume every one on this forum can agree on that.


It DOES that's why the car got lapped on the straight aways in that Best Motoring Video.. The best was when the WRX dude was pointing and laughing and waving "bye bye!!!"

Originally posted by block911
Mazda has a history of over rating their cars. My mazda6i makes 126 hp to the wheel when the engine is rated at 160 hp. Why don't manuf. release number as to what the car makes to the wheels? The HP at crank is usless to me!!!:confused: Does a rotorary engine have to be broken in the same way a piston engine does? I mean thought their were less moving parts.:confused:

All in all I'm still holding out hope for a Mazda Speed rx-8 :D :D :D

The Mazda 6i makes 130 WHP and 130 WTQ not 125, which given its stats of 160/155, is right in line. The car in question was also brand new and in Cali, so it had the ULEV package which saps another 3-5HP. bear in mind Honda's get K24 that everyone raves over is .1L larger than the 2.3L Mazda.

For the record, my V6 seems over rated in terms of TQ, I get 176/170 to the wheels and the crank stats are 220/192.

I don't think Mazda cooks its HP stats.

Originally posted by brillo


The Mazda 6i makes 130 WHP and 130 WTQ not 125, which given its stats of 160/155, is right in line. The car in question was also brand new and in Cali, so it had the ULEV package which saps another 3-5HP. bear in mind Honda's get K24 that everyone raves over is .1L larger than the 2.3L Mazda.

For the record, my V6 seems over rated in terms of TQ, I get 176/170 to the wheels and the crank stats are 220/192.

I don't think Mazda cooks its HP stats.


UHHHH.... Go read up on the Mazda's miata lawsuit.

KTHNX.

It's already been stated on this board in other places that there was no lawsuit. Looks like you're the one who needs to read up on it.

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5268&perpage=15&highlight=mazda%20sued%20miata&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by Rich
It's already been stated on this board in other places that there was no lawsuit. Looks like you're the one who needs to read up on it.

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5268&perpage=15&highlight=mazda%20sued%20miata&pagenumber=2


Nope - there was no law suits at any time over the 2001 Miata HP issue. Lots of publicity, quite a few unhappy owners, and a suitable resolution voluntarily provided by Mazda - owners could either return their Miatas for a prorated refund, or get $500 in accessories or free maintenance. The HP difference in that case was 12 HP, not 3, and resulted from a mix-up over test estimates and a decision after the engine tested at 155 to have all US Miata meet California emissions regs. It was the recalibrated engine that only made 142 crank HP.


They coped out and offered refunds to AVOID the lawsuit


BOTTOM LINE: THE CAR WAS OVERATED!!

you know how the electronics lowers the redline on a cold start? could Mazda have secretly programmed the ecu to also limit power for the first xxxx amount of miles?

Did this dyno also measure the air/fule ratio and throttle position so you can see if the thing was actually at WOT and full fuel mix and not limited somehow?

Originally posted by brillo

The car in question was also brand new and in Cali, so it had the ULEV package which saps another 3-5HP.

Negative. All of the US spec cars were built to the same (CA) emissions standards....

Originally posted by Block911
BOTTOM LINE: THE CAR WAS OVERATED!!


Dude get over yourself. We're talking about 1 car here, that's not broken in yet, with a lot of open questions about the dyno and techniques used. Nothing can be concluded from such a small sample. Like many have said, we all need to wait until there are a number of cars that have been fully broken in and dynoed before any conclusions can be reached.... Blanket statements like that make people look like morons.

I don't think it really matters, so long as the RX-8 can carry 2 tall people in the back, and is fun to drive. People who wants power would get V6 or V8 to begin with. btw: is it April Fools? I don't recall the last time a 210hp, 3000lb car can do 0-60 in under 6 seconds. Other RX-8 owners should go out and dyno their cars as well. In the mean time, I suspect many potential RX-8 buyers would be waiting.

btw: If the RX-8 only had 174whp, it would have been left in dust in the Best Motoring video.... (well, it would have lost even more on the straights) So I think the dyno is mistaken.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
I don't think it really matters, so long as the RX-8 can carry 2 tall people in the back, and is fun to drive. People who wants power would get V6 or V8 to begin with. btw: is it April Fools? I don't recall the last time a 210hp, 3000lb car can do 0-60 in under 6 seconds. Other RX-8 owners should go out and dyno their cars as well. In the mean time, I suspect many potential RX-8 buyers would be waiting.

btw: If the RX-8 only had 174whp, it would have been left in dust in the Best Motoring video.... (well, it would have lost even more on the straights) So I think the dyno is mistaken.



Uh it did get left in the dust. The RSX even passed it up LOL

The only thing it could beat is again the overated MIATA.

If you're talking about the video I think you are, it was not a U.S. spec RSX, but an ITR. Biiiiig difference.

Why is it you're here just to slam Mazda? They make fun to drive cars that are univerally lauded by the press. For the past year there have been dozens of trolls who come on here talking smack about the lack of torque or power, the performance, or whatever. The people who buy the RX-8 are not going to be the mindless armchair racers. The people who buy the RX-8 are the ones who enjoy driving, regardless of the numbers the car produces. People who buy cars based on magazine stats and HP and torque numbers will never understand or appreciate their cars.
The people who buy and own Miatas don't buy them because they expect them to be fast. They buy them because they are fun to drive. I believe the Miata is the only car in history to make 10 consecutive years on Automobile's 10 best list, IIRC. It has similar records with Edmunds and many other lists. Calling a car that has the enviable history as one of the standard bearers in all of automotive journalism overrated because it's slower on the track than newer cars costing $10,000 more is patently absurd.

It really makes one wonder what kind of a life someone must lead if they feel obsessed with spending their time on the message board of a car they don't like from a company they dislike.

Really sad...

OWNED!

haha, I like the troll connection..

Originally posted by Rich
If you're talking about the video I think you are, it was not a U.S. spec RSX, but an ITR. Biiiiig difference.




JDM RX-8:
Weight: 1310kg
Engine: 13B-MSP
Power: 250 ps @ 8500rpm
Torque: 22.0 kg-m @ 5500rpm (lower rpm the better)
Tires: Potenza RE040 225/45 R18
Price: 2750000 yen
Power Weight Ratio: 5.24 (lower the better)

JDM Integra - R:
Weight: 1180kg (with air con)
Engine: K20A
Power: 220 ps @ 8000rpm
Torque: 21.0 kg-m @ 7000rpm
Tires: Potenza RE040 215/45 R17
Price: 2590000 yen
Power Weight Ratio: 5.36

The fact the Integra R passed the RX-8 on the straights so quickly really doesn't make sense base on these specs. Then again, as Herc and Rich have already mentioned, specs don't mean anything, and track performance aren't worth a dime. What really matters is how you feel when you drive the car. Right? btw: The Miata is a legend, but I wouldn't compare the RX-8 to the Miata directly.

Couldn't a plausible answer to the appearent ease with which the RX-8 was overtaken by the Integra be simply due to difference in gearing between the two cars (i.e. the Integra's gearing being more suited for that particular piece of track)?
If this is the case, the gearing of the RX-8 might simply be better suited for real-world road driving - the Integra is after all Honda's Evo-ish offering.

Cheers

Eske

The 2nd gen RX-7 didn't reach full power until 10,000 miles. There was a switch in the odometer that told the ECU when the mark was reached. The ECU would then use more aggressive Fuel & ignition maps.

My guess is the motor just needs some more time. Any rotary engine builder will tell you that your engine isn't going to make full compression/power right away. It takes a little while for things to work in.

I would be expecting these to put down 205-215hp. The 3rd gen RX-7 was rated at 255hp and put down 215-225 at the wheels. Considering the drivetrains are very similar you'd expect similar losses.

Initially I was worried about the poor dyno results - did Mazda screw up again as they did with the Miata? But then I thought about it a bit.

Mazda originally targeted 250bhp for the RX-8 - their most important car in 10 years. Can you imagine how many hundreds of times the engineers must have tested and dynoed and tweaked the car to try to reach that number and then finally admitted failure and had to say it was 'only' 247bhp. Hell - if they were going to be 40bhp off and lie about it then why not be 43bhp off and claim 250bhp as they originally wanted to...

I think that future tests will show 247bhp at a minimum at the engine (i.e. definitely over 200rwhp). I am not worried about this any more, and I look forward to a dyno report from someone like MazdaTrix when their car is broken in.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
The Miata is a legend, but I wouldn't compare the RX-8 to the Miata directly.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
The only thing it could beat is again the overated MIATA.

The driver of the RX-8 seemed to be having a good time out there - too much of a good time. Everybody else was breaking traction, 4 wheel drifts, using all of their car. The RX-8 guy never lost traction, he looked late with his accel out of the turns, ya know, stuff like that. He didn't seem to care what position he finished in.
Secondly, the straight where he gave his position to the Nissan & the WRX (same short stretch) is just after the Nissan was next to him in the turn leading onto the stretch. It's obvious to me that he was extra slow coming out of that turn which is why both cars passed him. The WRX just went by with the Nissan. No great feat. No great testimony to the WRX, nor the Nissan, just a bad turn for the RX-8.
Thirdly, the RX-8 was perhaps not broken in or had a sticky port problem or whatever. A dominant car does not 1 race make.
Fourthly, the competition is either higher priced than the RX-8 OR it is a car made to sell for one reason only - its speed.

I saw an RX-8 for the first time today. What's more, I test drove it & my wife test drove it back to the dealership. We left that place in a state of euphoria. The car is beautiful in so many ways! And Block911 - if you should pass me somewhere sometime in a WRX, I'll guarantee you right here & now, if I happen to notice that you did, I {won't mind at all(edited-out the mud - sorry to offend you, Block911)} cuz my car will still be better than yours. See if you can manage to figure that one out.

Another OWNED!:p

"Block911 - if you should pass me somewhere sometime in a WRX, I'll guarantee you right here & now, if I happen to notice that you did, I aint gonna give a shit cuz my car will still be better than yours. See if you can manage to figure that one out."


1) Learn to use proper english mudshark.
2) Keep making excuses as to why the RX-8 got passed up in the straight away by every car in the race.

Hopefully an admin. will go through and delete all this bickering back and forth that has nothing to do with this guys low dyno #'s

I have a Dyno and if anyone is close to columbus Ohio I will do some dynoing for free to confirm the numbers.

Jason
www.rx7store.net

Originally posted by banzairx7
The 2nd gen RX-7 didn't reach full power until 10,000 miles. There was a switch in the odometer that told the ECU when the mark was reached. The ECU would then use more aggressive Fuel & ignition maps.

My guess is the motor just needs some more time. Any rotary engine builder will tell you that your engine isn't going to make full compression/power right away. It takes a little while for things to work in.

I would be expecting these to put down 205-215hp. The 3rd gen RX-7 was rated at 255hp and put down 215-225 at the wheels. Considering the drivetrains are very similar you'd expect similar losses.

The 3rd Gen RX-7 also has a mileage switch. Wouldn't surprise me that the RX-8 has one too.

I didn't see this so called Japanese video, nor do I care to. If I was looking to thrash a Subaru, Nissan or Acura around the track then an FD would more than adequate at handling the job. And with more than a 10 year deficit on technological advancements it's still among the best.

My point is, anyone that wants to tear into the RX-8 based on performance is fooling themselves. I wold find it hard to believe that this first year RX-8 is the best that Mazda can offer. They are fully aware of how strong of a performer the FD was/is.