My local news agency is saying General Motors is offering employee discounts to non-employees through July 5th. The savings on some cars is supposedly near 8K off the sticker. I hope GM and Ford can pull out of their death spiral. Even though I'm not a huge American car fan, it would devastate our economy if one or both of these giants fell. My brother lives near Detroit and he's constantly telling me about businesses going under in his area who sub-contract for the Big Three. Toyota is even talking about raising the price of their cars to help ailing American car sales. :eek:

Toyota is even talking about raising the price of their cars to help ailing American car sales. :eek:

Yikes, Toyota's prices are ALREADY high enough! :eek:

Serious times call for serious measures. If offering these kinds of discounts helps them out, then I'm all for it. I'm not a huge American Car fan but I would REALLY love to see Ford and GM recover from their current trend. They do make some amazing vehicles on ocassion. (not to mention ford OWNS Mazda!)

Why would Toyota want to help American car sales?

Numerous reasons:

- You'd be amazed at how creative your design team gets when they have competition.
- Provides your a benchmark of what works / doesn't work
- Toyota knows it cannot handle the demand all on its own
- Don't some of the car sompanies rely on each other? Isn't the new Pontiac Soltice's engine basically a tuned down version of the celica's?

Above all, they might just realize how catastrophic it would be to lose some of those automakers. It would have an effect on the japanese economy as well.

I bought my car under the ford discount b/c ford owns the US divison of Mazda. so I got an s-plan discount.

nice. :D

Numerous reasons:

- You'd be amazed at how creative your design team gets when they have competition.
- Provides your a benchmark of what works / doesn't work
- Toyota knows it cannot handle the demand all on its own
- Don't some of the car sompanies rely on each other? Isn't the new Pontiac Soltice's engine basically a tuned down version of the celica's?

Above all, they might just realize how catastrophic it would be to lose some of those automakers. It would have an effect on the japanese economy as well.

No I believe the soltice is the N/A version of the cobalt 2.4 liter.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article_id=7724&page_number=1

I think you were thinking of the Matrix/Vibe... Toyota and GM working together.

Don't forget about things like Ford of Europe, Ford of Australia, Opel, Jaguar, Volvo and so forth.... Ford and GM own all these companies as well. We wouldn't want to see them all go down the tubes or MAYBE auctioned to the highest bidder... Hyundai might buy them :eek:

GM lowered the total rebate on most cars by $1500 for this month. GMS = Invoice - 3% of MSRP + $75. So for cars that you could buy near invoice anyway break even for GMS pricing is about an MSRP $40,000.

My price comparison site gives GMS pricing for most GM models equipped to spec, if anyone's interested. (See sig for url.) I'm not aware of any other site that does this.

Why would Toyota want to help American car sales?

Imagine the backlash Toyota would receive if they were perceived as the reason GM went out of business. When my brother moved to Detroit in 1990, that was right when the Japanese really took a juicy bite out of the Big Three's pie. Autoworkers lost their jobs by the thousands and were vandalizing foreign cars left and right and some people even lost their lives simply because they were driving Japanese cars. Toyota realizes that if GM goes under so could the US economy. I'm led to believe Toyota cares about America because without America, Toyota would have learn to build bicycles. :D

Why would Toyota want to help American car sales?


When you you have a heavily demanded product you can increase profits more easily by raising prices rather than increasing production.

Think Ferrari. They make a whole lot of profit on each car. They could sell a lot more 360/F430s for $75,000 and only make a little profit on each car but overall they would make a lot less money.

If anyone's interested, theres a book by Micheline Maynard called "The End of Detroit: How the Big Three Lost Their Grip on the American Car Market" that talks about foreign vs. domestic manufacturers and how differently they operate. It's a couple years old at this point, but its still a good read.

This "employee discount for all" is a very bad thing. GM has been consumer discount crazy ever since 911 and the rise in gas prices, and yet there is nothing in their business plan to change their product line up so they can stop the trend. They are still planning to concentrate on the truck and SUV segment. In fact, I read a quote on CNN from a GM product specialist saying that he thought there was still room for growth in trucks and SUV's. The fact is, American car companies do nothing but lose money on small cars because their profit margins are so thin. So they gravitate toward larger vehicles because they are the only ones that make them any kind of profit. The problem with GM is that they are discounting American companies right out of business. Ford and DC are forced to lower their prices every time GM does so. It's next to impossible to make money in that kind of market.

That's because a lot of employees will soon become non-employees...... 25,000 to be precise. Just announced with a list of plant closings. Too bad. They really butchered this company.

I'm hoping GM catches itself at some point here. I'd hate to see them die given all the good things that come out of Detroit from them. I actually think the discount is a good thing for them because most people could probably get the price further below the discount price with a little haggling anyway. Well, unless you buy a Saturn ;)

This "employee discount for all" is a very bad thing. GM has been consumer discount crazy ever since 911 and the rise in gas prices, and yet there is nothing in their business plan to change their product line up so they can stop the trend. They are still planning to concentrate on the truck and SUV segment. In fact, I read a quote on CNN from a GM product specialist saying that he thought there was still room for growth in trucks and SUV's. The fact is, American car companies do nothing but lose money on small cars because their profit margins are so thin. So they gravitate toward larger vehicles because they are the only ones that make them any kind of profit. The problem with GM is that they are discounting American companies right out of business. Ford and DC are forced to lower their prices every time GM does so. It's next to impossible to make money in that kind of market.

GM wouldn't need to discount their cars if they were exciting. The problem is that their cars suck. They're consistently at the bottom for every comparison test. I'm not sure who is to blame (engineers, designers, bean counters, management) but they certainly don't know what the public wants. And they're going to find that the truck and SUV markets are quickly going to dry up when Toyota releases their hybrid full-size truck. Nissan is already taking away a big portion with the Titan/Armada. Honda is going to take some away with the Ridgeline. Now you add a hybrid Toyota....it doesn't look good at all for GM. Especially when their best ideas are the GM badge and the HHR (yuck!).

I don't want to upset any union members in this club but the UAW is playing a large part in this fiasco. They fought hard in the fifties for unprecedented wages and benefits when GM could afford it. With the average GM employee making 110K per year plus benefits, it's no wonder they are dying. Unless the UAW accepts cuts in pay and benefits, GM will die. Right now, GM is loosing $1500 per vehicle just to pay for healthcare.

As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong but the Japanese do not allow unions in their domestic plants. I'm all for the employees getting a good wage and benefits but there is a logical limit.

maybe they should stop selling shit and come up with some worthwhile products? Screw cheap give me quality and durability. Stop making disposable cars and plastic toy trucks and stupid niche products and develop for the masses again.

Yikes, Toyota's prices are ALREADY high enough! :eek:


Their MSRP's are pretty even with the Fords/GMs/Chryslers....it's just that the Domestics give their cars away with huge discounts.....

hmmm.... time for a GTO????

I don't want to upset any union members in this club but the UAW is playing a large part in this fiasco. They fought hard in the fifties for unprecedented wages and benefits when GM could afford it. With the average GM employee making 110K per year plus benefits, it's no wonder they are dying. Unless the UAW accepts cuts in pay and benefits, GM will die. Right now, GM is loosing $1500 per vehicle just to pay for healthcare.

As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong but the Japanese do not allow unions in their domestic plants. I'm all for the employees getting a good wage and benefits but there is a logical limit.

I am not 100% sure if they have unions or not in Auto plants... probably do. However, Japanese unions don't function anything at all like US unions. They don't strike and they don't fight with management... it's not a "Us Vs Management" mentality, but rather a cooperative effort...

The UAW is a bunch of douche bags. GM is not dying, they're just frustrated with the fact that they've lost at least $1 billion because it costs about $1500 in healthcare per vehicle produced. That's ridiculous. I'm all for sharing the wealth, but GM, Ford too, cannot afford to pay everyone they way they want to. They're pretty much paying for retirees who worked probable 70 years ago. Remember that these companies are over 100 years old, so they're paying a lot of people. However, what the UAW demands is not cost effective. They need to remember they're employees, even if they're in a union. If I were Wagoner, and an asshole (I got 1/2 that right), I'd fire everyone and replace them with children. Am I wrong? Hell no. Children here are fat and lazy. It's time to put them to work, like a forced co-op program or something like that. Fat kids make me sick, and they need exercise.

Anyway, it's pretty awful that GM has to cut (http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0506/09/A01-208646.htm) so many jobs, and it's not just in the U.S. Apparently, they're cutting jobs overseas in Europe (Opel and the like). About 25,000 here and 12,000 over there. Like I said, GM cannot afford to pay everyone for their healthcare, retirement pension, etc. Foreign car companies are lucky; they only need to pay around $200-$300 (http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,175&sid=175&article=6791) per vehicle in healthcare costs. In Japan, healthcare costs are regulated closely by the government.

If worse comes to worse, other than hiring fat kids, all manual labor could be moved overseas, or across the border in Mexico. ¡Viva la General Motors!

As for these incentives, I'd hope for it to make a sales impact, which it probably will for the first couple of weeks, maybe a month or so. Since the announcement of cutting the blue-collar jobs, the Dow (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=a8TdQjKJZyNM&refer=home) went up some, which is expected.

I think unions suck too, but I would lump the GM executives in there as well. The last thing I would want to see is the low level emplyees take 20%-30% pay cuts, only to see the executives get 20%-30% raises. This has been the norm in the airline industry. It's BS. More coporate greed from the people who set policy (the executives).

Well Ford is not in the GM slum, hell neither is DC, ford made over a billion last year and DC is finally selling good vehicles again. GM needs to fire all their designers, management and start hiring some young new talent. They have 1 good division (cadillac) and 1 good car (Vette) the rest are ass-ugly and have been for years and years. It is next to impossible to get a manual transmission, just that crappy 4sp auto they made in the 70's. And they are dropping the one good thing they had going for them, the rear drive Zeta platform. Hey GM we are all sick of ugly front drive cheap quality cars! Hell Hyundai's are better quality nowadays and that is pathetic. What they are not seeing is that people will pay more for a better quality car (see toyota). GM also is going backwards, most car companies starting out (Hyundai for instance) with cheap (quality/price) cars to make some money so they can start upgrading their products, not GM they went from one of the best to getting worse. As for Toyota raising prices, if the american consumer see that GM is going to go under, the Gov will step in and raise tarrifs on imports to try and save the company (remember GM is the second largest auto maker and an american icon) which will cut into toyota's sales. If Toy does it themselves, they will at least be in control of what happens to their prices/sales.

As for Toyota raising prices, if the american consumer see that GM is going to go under, the Gov will step in and raise tarrifs on imports to try and save the company (remember GM is the second largest auto maker and an american icon) which will cut into toyota's sales. If Toy does it themselves, they will at least be in control of what happens to their prices/sales.

Good point, no way does the government let GM die from strictly a US economy standpoint.

I think unions suck too, but I would lump the GM executives in there as well. The last thing I would want to see is the low level emplyees take 20%-30% pay cuts, only to see the executives get 20%-30% raises. This has been the norm in the airline industry. It's BS. More coporate greed from the people who set policy (the executives).

Good point Fanman. The first place GM should start cutting jobs and wages is in upper management. They are the ones who okayed all this mess to begin with. The ones who are loosing their jobs are regular dudes just trying to make a living doing exactly what they were told to do. :confused:

I don't think it is news that American cars are crap, especially to the car companies. That is why they only give you a 3 year warranty. They know that is as long as it is going to operate correctly. If GM goes under, they go under. Someone else will buy them and start over, or absorb them. But the government shouldn't save their ass. That is just rewarding mediocrity. As far as the unions, they should just lay everyone off, and abolish the unions and then rehire (I know that is overly simplistic, but you get the idea). Most of those guys will be glad to work without a union. Most of them probably only joined because they had no choice. It's like American Airlines fighting to keep Southwest Airlines out of DFW Airport. American is so inefficient that they know they can't compete with a company like Southwest who has streamlined their operations. Why should Southwest be punished because American Airlines won't trim the fat?

I don't think it is news that American cars are crap,

Yea, that's why they all where rated better then mazda by JD power :rolleyes:

American cars have come a long way from the old days. Do I like the designs from GM lately? No. (except the corvette, and a few trucks)

All I know is that just by driving my Mazda for the last 3 months, I know it is better quality than the two Fords and one Chevrolet I had prior. Regardless of what JD Power says, do you honestly believe that domestic vehicles are better quality than foreign? My wife drives a Toyota Camry, and I would buy one again over any domestic manufacturers same-class vehicle, even if it was twice the price. You know why? Because it's worth it.

All I know is that just by driving my Mazda for the last 3 months, I know it is better quality than the two Fords and one Chevrolet I had prior. Regardless of what JD Power says, do you honestly believe that domestic vehicles are better quality than foreign? .

3 months isn't long enough to judge the quality of much really.... but this is an rx-8, mazda's flagship so to speak so of course it should feel solid and well put together. What where your previous cars that you are comparing your 8 to? Did they sticker for 30-35k?


My wife drives a Toyota Camry, and I would buy one again over any domestic manufacturers same-class vehicle, even if it was twice the price. You know why? Because it's worth it

So you would pay 60k for the Camry over a Cadillac CTS-V and pocket 5-10k while you are at it?

If anyone's interested, theres a book by Micheline Maynard called "The End of Detroit: How the Big Three Lost Their Grip on the American Car Market" that talks about foreign vs. domestic manufacturers and how differently they operate. It's a couple years old at this point, but its still a good read.

This book has received far more attention than it deserves. You can read my review on Amazon for the details: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385507690/qid=1118378292/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-5957231-4061421?v=glance&s=books&n=507846. Such an awful book the review was pure joy to write.

So you would pay 60k for the Camry over a Cadillac CTS-V and pocket 5-10k while you are at it?


I would never buy a Cadillac even if it was 3 times cheaper than a Camry. I think they look dated, with too many hard lines. It is definitely one of the car lines that needs some fresh ideas in the style department, in my opinion. Of course I wouldn't buy a Camry for $60K, but honestly, at this point in my life, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on any car.

Who are you to say that 3 months isn't enough time for me to know if the car is better quality? My last 3 vehicles were a Ford Probe, a Chevy truck and a Ford Explorer Sport Trac (The Sport Trac did have an original sticker price of close to $30K I believe). Not all are the same vehicle class, but I am comparing the difference in quality, not performance.

Like someone else said, it's no secret American cars aren't anywhere up to par than foreign competitors. As an engineering student, what's built here is a reflection on what we're capable of. The Big Three can come up with these wickedly awesome concept cars, like the Shelby GR-1, and then when they try to trickle the technology and styling down to their normal cars, something if not everything gets lost along the way (read: Ford 500). The only car I've seen that has decent styling is the Corvette (always), and the Chrysler 300C, but that's my opinion. The last American car my parents owned was a dingleberry of an Oldsmobile Cutlass Sierra. We traded it in for a Toyota Previa in 1991, and we haven't looked back. I'd like to own a 'Vette someday, and that'll be the only American car I can dream about. I don't know who the Big Three are hiring in their R&D and design department, but sorry guys, you suck. You suck because you lack imagination. I'll rag on Ford because of their affixation on neo-classical designs. Seriously, the Ford Mustang could've been a lot better, but instead, it's a bloated version of the original. Wait for the Mustang II to make a return in 2009. I hope you guys in Detroit are reading this, and hire me because I have ideas, crazy ideas. Call me.

and we just bought a truck before all these discounts hit! god-damn-it

GM just needs some exciting cars. It is good now that they're getting the idea by putting the LS in some sedans, but the sedans they choose are heavy and ugly. The last area where they used to hold an edge was the truck market, but that is disappearing quickly because of the foreign competitors. GM is probably paying employees too much, but Unions shouldn't go and GM should actually get some lightweight cars and stuff the LS in them, and make some nice handling cars even. They've proven they can with the Vette.

It's all so disturbingly true.

http://media.adlegend.com/centrport/19132/300x250-3.gif


*Excludes 2005 Chevrolet Corvette and medium duty trucks. Take delivery by July 5, 2005. See dealer for details.

See:

http://www.gm.com/employeediscount.do?brandId=ch&cmp=ch_com&version=1

Like someone else said, it's no secret American cars aren't anywhere up to par than foreign competitors. As an engineering student, what's built here is a reflection on what we're capable of. The Big Three can come up with these wickedly awesome concept cars, like the Shelby GR-1, and then when they try to trickle the technology and styling down to their normal cars, something if not everything gets lost along the way (read: Ford 500). The only car I've seen that has decent styling is the Corvette (always), and the Chrysler 300C, but that's my opinion. The last American car my parents owned was a dingleberry of an Oldsmobile Cutlass Sierra. We traded it in for a Toyota Previa in 1991, and we haven't looked back. I'd like to own a 'Vette someday, and that'll be the only American car I can dream about. I don't know who the Big Three are hiring in their R&D and design department, but sorry guys, you suck. You suck because you lack imagination. I'll rag on Ford because of their affixation on neo-classical designs. Seriously, the Ford Mustang could've been a lot better, but instead, it's a bloated version of the original. Wait for the Mustang II to make a return in 2009. I hope you guys in Detroit are reading this, and hire me because I have ideas, crazy ideas. Call me. :rolleyes: I'll keep that in mind... When things get really desperate we'll call in shelleys_man_06 to save the day. I don't think anyone who hasn't worked in the automotive industry has any true perspective of the root causes of the problems. It goes far deeper than us "sucky people" working in R&D. I'm surprised at the words you've chosen.

I forget that Buckeye here works for Ford. So much for dumping my resume. Oh well. GPA isn't high enough anyways :rolleyes:.

Anyway, shit yeah it's hard to design cars, especially with a market with people waiting and wanting. The cars companies come out with, or union policies, engineering, etc., aren't a result of lack of enthusiasm. I must digress. My belief is it's a result of our incessant bitching from people like me. It's also my belief is that public opinion makes these cars, and no they're not going to please everyone. Until people can evolve into clouds of energy, we're stuck with shit that we may or may not like. Yeah I'm going off on a tangent. This thread's supposed to be about employee discounts offered to us "normies."

Seriously, the Ford Mustang could've been a lot better, but instead, it's a bloated version of the original.

Didn't they just bump production by something like 80k units this year to try and keep up with demand? They must be doing something right. You can hardly find a GT anywhere to even test drive now. I am sure Ford is just so disappointed with their design team over this fiasco. :rolleyes:

Didn't they just bump production by something like 80k units this year to try and keep up with demand? They must be doing something right. You can hardly find a GT anywhere to even test drive now. I am sure Ford is just so disappointed with their design team over this fiasco. :rolleyes:

Yeah I read somewhere that some dealers are even buying GTs on ebay to try and fill their orders. Ford is telling many of the dealers that they are working at capacity to produce the car already.

Yeah I read somewhere that some dealers are even buying GTs on ebay to try and fill their orders. Ford is telling many of the dealers that they are working at capacity to produce the car already.

That's great to hear! Unfortunately for the owners, they will see themselves at every stoplight in the near future but This should help Ford rebound a little.

That's great to hear! Unfortunately for the owners, they will see themselves at every stoplight in the near future but This should help Ford rebound a little.

I don't understand how this is unfortunate for them. The volume of Mustang gts on the road will ensure a big aftermarket for parts and tuning of the car at reasonable prices.

So you desire a car that nobody else would want? :confused:

I don't understand how this is unfortunate for them. The volume of Mustang gts on the road will ensure a big aftermarket for parts and tuning of the car at reasonable prices.

So you desire a car that nobody else would want? :confused:

I guess he's saying that he desires a car that is not as common. It does make a car a little less desirable if everyone else has one and it's all you see on the road. But like you said, there are advantages to that as well.

For Ford, that's all good news.

I don't understand how this is unfortunate for them. The volume of Mustang gts on the road will ensure a big aftermarket for parts and tuning of the car at reasonable prices.

So you desire a car that nobody else would want? :confused:It's not unfortunate for them as long as they don't mind having a car that is not very unique. Sure, they can customize their vehicles with a vast array of aftermarket parts, but it's just not the same as having a unique production vehicle. To many, there is something to be said about having a vehicle that is relatively uncommon. New Mustangs turn heads right now, but once the market is flooded with them, people won't look twice. For those who crave attention, this could be viewed as unfortunate.

I don't understand how this is unfortunate for them. The volume of Mustang gts on the road will ensure a big aftermarket for parts and tuning of the car at reasonable prices.

So you desire a car that nobody else would want? :confused:

Snizzle & Buckeye know what I'm talking about. What I want is a car that everyone wants but can't have, i.e. Ferrari F430. I can't afford that so I look for a car that is not "popular". I think Honda Accords & Toyota Camry's are fantastic cars but it would pain me to drive one because they are everywhere. They are "popular" cars. That's why my second car is a Mazda 6 5-door. They are common compared to a Ferrari but practically non-existent compared to an Accord or Camry.