OK, all you previous RX owners!

We, who have never even driven a rotary-powered car need your advice, now more than ever!

Take me, for instance. You see in my sig that I have been driving piston poppers with HP in the mid to low 100 range.

When I first get in that RX-8, what am I gonna experience and what am I gonna wish I knew?

Many thanks in advance for all your help!

The only advice I can think of is due to the rotaries low end character - it needs more revs and a good slip of the clutch to get a decent launch. Where you might be used to 1100 revs to get you rolling, the rotary might need closer to 1500, plus a slower clutch release.The only other thing is the caution about not shutting it off when it is still cold - let it warm up or don't start it, it may flood.

Many of the issues that existed in previous rotaries look as though they have been addressed with the Renesis. However, here are a few things that come to mind:

1) Follow the break-in procedures as listed in the owner's manual
2) Check the engine oil at each fill up (top off if necessary)
3) Change the oil often (every 3000 miles or 3 months whichever comes first)
4) Once the engine is started, keep it running until it comes up to normal operating range (this prevents flooding) before turning off. In other words, don't start up the car, pull it out of the garage or driveway and shut it off - let it warm up.
5) Once it is broken-in, regularly take it into the upper Rev zone 6500 to 8500/9K
6) Go to lots of Rotary events and gatherings - rotaries are very social cars :D

Since this is a normally aspirated (NA) engine, we all should get many miles of trouble free driving with just routine, but diligent, maintenance - nothing extraordinary.

3Rotor, do you recognize my brother's champoin SCCA NorPac GT2 RX-7 in my avatar? He's in Seattle. (I claim NO credits here, except I was in his pits twice now. Once at Mission, BC & once at Road Atlanta. Wish I could do it a lot more!!!:D!!!)

Anyway, both of you guys mention the flooding scenario. What is the reason of why this happens? A better understanding of this might further help in preventing it. That would also dilute the engine oil with gas, right?

I believe it is because of the fuel that is required at ignition. It "floods" the housings. Letting the car run to operating temperature burns the fuel. I know that one of the only ways to unflood the car is what is known as the "ATF trick" (do a search on the RX7club.com forum for more info), or to pull the plugs. I am not a wrencher - so everyone who wants to flame me on this topic needs to know that there are many more people out there who had a lot more hands on knowledge than I do.

I do not know your brother. But that is probably because I am a collector of show and unusual rotaries, versus a racer. My Cosmo will be Mazda's featured car at their booth at the Hot Import Nights Show in Seattle on the 19th of July.

I think the flood issue is more or less attributed to leaky fuel injectors due to old age.

I doubt it'll be a constant issue with the BRAND NEW RX-8

but do let the car warm up before shutting down, to reduce general wear on the engine.

and yes, you will need to slip the clutch a bit more to get the car rolling from a stop.

other than that, I think you will be too busy enjoying 9000rpms of driving fun :D

Just remember, don't be afraid to spend some time keeping the RPMs above where you would normally fear to tread with a conventional motor. Keep the revs low till it warms up and then knock yourself out.

89+ RX-7s (FC and FD) can be unflooded by pressing the accelerator to the floor and cranking the engine.

Flooding: Only really plagued the earlier (84-91) injected rotaries. My FD is shut off cold regularly and I run cold plugs. Maybe if it was snowing you might have some trouble but I certainly haven't in years of owning FD's.

Warm-up: Can't stress this enough though. Don't get into it until it's warmed up. By that I mean both the engine and gearbox.

Servicing: Don't muck about with oil changes. If you're taking it racing, change the oil before you go.

Carbon build-up: Once it's run in, thrash it. It's not only fun it's good for it. The most common cause of death in 20b's was carbon lock-up (or so I'm told). ie not through not being looked after, but by owner afraid to go over 3000rpm :)

-pete

i've never had a rotary myself, but from reading alot of you rotary owner's posts, it seems you guys are telling us to beat on the car once it's warm and that it's good for the car?

AFTER the specified break-in period, that is ;)

and then go ahead and have fun at 9k rpm :D

Originally posted by BRx8
i've never had a rotary myself, but from reading alot of you rotary owner's posts, it seems you guys are telling us to beat on the car once it's warm and that it's good for the car?

I know it's hard to beleive but it's true. Nobody ever wears apex seals down to nothing, so you're not reducing the life of the engine. You are however, burning off buildup in the engine.

-pete

My take on the flooding issue is this;
rotary engines have relatively low static compression and the worst area of flame propagation of all engines (very long and thin space where explosions are taking place.) This is the same reason that rotaries will probably never set the pace in the fuel economy department.
Rotor speed is a third of shaft speed.This means when cranking at 300 rpms, rotors are travelling at a leisurely 100 rpms.(Comparatively slow rate when put against pistons.)
Most of these flooding complaints started when rotaries became fuel injected. I've heard it said that when cranking, the management system (P.C.M.) doesn't know the difference between 300 and 100 cranking rpms and instead focuses on other data for cold start.
To make a long story short, starting is not a rotary's favorite thing to do.It functions well if all systems are up to certain standards including battery,state of tune etc.

On startup, any throttle? Hot/warm/cold? I've always used the no-throttle-unless-it-doesn't-fire-up rule. And then, only just a tad. This rule still apply?

Also, how radical is the no-load throttle response? I'm imagining almost too radical with very little inertia to tame it down. I'm asking this mainly in terms of how hard is it to master the smooth dead-stop downtown takeoff from, say, a stoplight, like with a cop next to you. Also easy to stall if you don't maintain 1500rpm? Of course, answer this as though we 1st timers have mastered this stuff on piston poppers, OK? Any difference at all?

Originally posted by Racer X-8
On startup, any throttle?With a fly-by-wire throttle, I'd assume that the ECU will determine the correct aperture when cranking. Makes it hard to clear a flooded engine by flooring it while cranking, tho'.

Originally posted by rpm_pwr


Carbon build-up: Once it's run in, thrash it. It's not only fun it's good for it. The most common cause of death in 20b's was carbon lock-up (or so I'm told). ie not through not being looked after, but by owner afraid to go over 3000rpm :)

-pete

I have read that this is a big problem with rotary powered cars more-so than in pistons. If the car is started, then it needs to be run up to operating temp before shut off to prevent the risk of carbon lock. Apparently, the carbon lock can be so bad that the car has to be towed to a mechanic for work to break the engine free again. The FAQ seems pretty good to me, but I am hardly a judge as this is my first rotary car as well, but I'll list the FAQ location since it seems to be good reading for all new rotary owners. It's Felix's Own Rotary FAQ at:

http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/cfaqmenu.html

-H

Actually, the main problem with 20Bs was a weak eccentric shaft in the first 1000 engines, referred to as A-Spec engines. I have a stock A-Spec motor in my Cosmo with over 87K miles on it (142K+ kms). Because it is stock and it hasn't been overboosted, it is still running. 20Bs developed a reputation when A-Spec engines (the first ones) were tweaked, proded and poked, then put under greater than stock boost (9.37 lbs). The e-shaft were subject to flex, and BANG there goes your center rotor/housing and obviously your motor. That isn't to say that someone being gentle on a rotary couldn't cause cause carbon build up, but carbon build-up isn't the primary reason that 20Bs have a reputation.

Hey 3rotor

Where and how do you go about purchaseing a 3 rotor cosmo.?

Pure, unadultered, blind, damn LUCK!

Nice forum you folks have here. I was just searching this morning to determine if the 8 was out yet. Sounds like not quite yet. Also sounds like it might be awhile before anyone who didn't preorder can actually get one.

To your question. As others have mentioned, at least in my 7, the low end is pretty weak. I actually have found that to get a decent launch in mine I have to rev it to around 4-5. It's always been a better road car than stop-light drag racer. Hopefully the 8 will have more umph down low. Of course I have to deal with turbo lag as well. Also, realize that at least in my 7 the engine revs to around 3,500 for approx 15 seconds when initally started. This is by design. As others have said when you start it for whatever reason let it run until it's warm before shutting it down. Finally, be ready to be driving down the road at 6,000 RPM's not realizing you need to shift. Why? Because the rotary doesn't vibrate or make the noise a piston engine does. My 7 has a buzzer 500 before the redline to indicate it's getting close because the engine is sooooo smoooooth you may not realize it. That's probably the thing that made me most fall in love with the rotary.

It should be encouraging that my 7 is 16 years old with 124K miles, and still has the original turbo charger. In fact though it has a number of minor eletrical problems at this point the engine is still as strong as a bull.

help me out

where does the carbon build up take place?

at the "cyclinder" wall? where the apex seal sweep thru at every turn?

or on the surface of the triagular rotor?

cuz how come 4000 rpm sweep doesn't take out carbon but 9000 rpm does??

the carbon buildup is used to be at the intake/exhaust ports.

spinning up the rotors will supposedly break up any kind of buildup and send it out to the exhaust.

however, with the less use of oil to lubricate the seal and the use of side exhaust ports, i suspect the carbon buildup situation won't be as severe as the old RX-7s were.

Flooding isn't going to be an issue ... neither is carbon build up.

All you need to know is that buzzing sound is your shift indicator. Wait until you hear it to shift, or you might get a leaky head gasket.

The flooding difficulties associated with shutting cold engines down was caused by a software glitch in the Engine Control Units (ECU's) of early second generation (1986 & 1987) RX-7's. The problem isn't related to the rotary engine design in any way & is a non-issue in the case of the RX-8. Having said that, all types of engines should be allowed to warm their oil prior to shut-down.

The Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) trick referred to earlier isn't required to un-flood an engine...just remove the fuel pump fuse, turn the engine over for a bit & install new or cleaned spark plugs...Vroom!!!

BTW, in sixteen years & 264,000 miles of operation, I've only managed to flood my 1987 RX-7 once so I think it's fair to say that the flooding legend is just another example of the ignorant propaganda bull crap that pistoncentric types love to fabricate.

A while back someone posted the Product Comparison Guide that is supposedly distributed to all dealers. Here is an extract from page 29, Section - "2004 Mazda RX-8 Delivery Tips ", Subsection "Rotary Engine":

During short periods of cold engine driving (such as backing the RX-8 out of a garage to wash it in a driveway) drivers should use the following procedure to help keep the spark plugs from fouling or the rotary engine from running rough:
· Turn the ignition switch to the START position and hold (up to 10 seconds at a time) until the engine starts.
· After starting the engine, let it idle for about 10 seconds, then move the vehicle.
· After moving the vehicle, let the engine idle for about 5 minutes.
· Rev the engine to 3000 rpm, and then let it return to idle.
Turn the ignition switch to the OFF position.

I would be a first time rotor-ite myself. But I have a friend who has a 3rd gen 7. He only experienced the flooding once in these past ten years.

What do you think?
:confused:

With no disrespect intended to RX7Guy,
I presently own a 1st gen, a 2nd gen and two 3rd gen RX-7s and have worked as a tech at a few Mazda dealerships.
When winter time comes around the dealers get an increase in 'no start rotary cars.' One of the causes of this is the effect that cold weather has on batteries. Modern day piston engines do not seem to be afflicted with this condition. If you go back to my previous post you should understand why that is.
I have personally flooded a brand new RX-7 prior to P.D.I.
Hopefully the increase in compression ratio and improvements to the ignition system will make a huge difference.
As noted by RXGuy (Not the same person) Mazda has given these instructions to dealerships re: cold start warmup. He did not mention that this bulletin ended by stating that this was due to the unique nature of the rotary engine.
Again this is not an epedemic. You may never experience it. Generally speaking read your owners manual and treat your car like you would any other new car. Rotaries are not that weird or different.

Originally posted by 3Rotor
Actually, the main problem with 20Bs was a weak eccentric shaft in the first 1000 engines, referred to as A-Spec engines.

With respect, the first 20b engines didn't have any letter at all. They theoretically should have all been destroyed but we still get them here in OZ every now and then. A spec motors had the newer e-shaft in them AFAIK.

-pete

What does AFAIK stand for? My engine number is 503. You are correct about the first engines having no letter. I also do not believe any engine ever had a A stamped in it. They went instead to B, C, and D engines. I also have a B series in my RX-7 and a spare D series engine for my Cosmo. I was under the distinct impression that A-spec motors were infered as such due to the lack of a letter and the fact that they went straight to B. You learn something new everyday.

Spark plug fouling can occur on the RX8 as with the previous rotary engine. For 99% of owners it will not occur. It has occured at the dealers in the past when new the cars are being moved around to access inventory. Lot guy will start it, move 10 feet & shut it down. Do this several times cold and the plugs may foul.

Originally posted by 3Rotor
What does AFAIK stand for?As Far As I Know.

Originally posted by 3Rotor
and a spare D series engine for my Cosmo.

Wow! :eek: even my workmates uber-rare series 2 JC Cosmo "only" has a 'C' series. Good find.

-pete

My experience is as follows:

Flooding - caused by ECU going to "choke mode" (starting cold engine and keeping lots of fuel there until it warms up) - fuel builds up enough that liquid fuel exists in the rotor housing. This "washes down" any of the injected oil enough that you cannot create enough of a seal in the chamber to cause adaquate air pumping when you try to start it. Older engines with leaky injectors really make this much worse.

Solution was to let the engine warm up before shutting down - therefore ECU goes off "choke mode", and you don't have too much fuel (also, the warm engine vaporizes any fuel left). This problem occured rairly, as indicated by others (I have forgotten on many occations to let my 3rd gen. warm up and have never had it happen to me on my 3rd gen. I also had an 87 TII that had a fuel pump shutoff switch installed as it had leaky injectors - and when flooded I just had to shut down the pump to clear it - and it flooded even when warm).

Why is it talked about so much? Once you get your car, have a look at how hard it is to pull the plugs! On later RXs, (I have the third gen. FD), you can pull your back out changing them from above (I'm old ;-), and you need jack stands to do it from below. Not something you would do parked away from home.

Carbon lock - carbon builds up from the excessive oil earlier rotories had to inject - it could be burned or blasted off by reving the engine often (once or twice a day to say 6000 to 7000 RPM). Eventually, the carbon gets thick, and a piece breaks off and jams between an apex (not necessarily the seal) of a rotor and the housing. The starter wasn't powerful enough to break it out. If forced, it was 50/50 whether damage would occur, so most knowledgable mechanics would "rock" the rotor back and forth, trying to break the chunk up without excessive damage to the rotor, apex seal, or rotor housing. From the reports I've read on lists of this, it usually happened when the engine was cold.

How to operate the new RX-8? If I had one, once broken in, I would run it at 1 1/2 times the RPM I would a piston engine. I would not be afraid of runing it up close to redline at full throttle from time to time. Rotories need to be used hard because, like 2 stroke engines, they are piston ported (rotor ported), and those ports need to be kept clean. They are a 4 cycle engine (actually, better described as a continuous cycle). Just make sure you check the fluids and keep them well supplied. Remember, some of your engine oil is injected into the combusion chamber and lost, so you may use a bit more oil than say, a Honduh ;-). You usually will be changing the oil before you have to add any, but better safe than sorry.

When I was 16 in 1986, I was given an '80 RX-7 GS. I remember I first had the RPM to low, like you would drive any other car. Later, my dad told me to wait longer to shift, and what a difference it made! You'll find a comfortable spot around 4k or more. Under 3k, and you'll notice a sluggishness. The Rotary is so dang smooth at high RPM's. Nothing like it!

This site just makes me miss owning a Rotary....

Would purchasing a remote engine starter help with the warm up requirement? Any problems with using a remote starter? One more question. I taught myself to drive stick on my Corolla, and I have no idea what slipping the clutch means. Is that when I hold the clutch in while giving the car gas then letting out slowly while my RPM's are high? Thanks for the info!:)

Originally posted by mantisflie
Would purchasing a remote engine starter help with the warm up requirement? Any problems with using a remote starter? One more question. I taught myself to drive stick on my Corolla, and I have no idea what slipping the clutch means. Is that when I hold the clutch in while giving the car gas then letting out slowly while my RPM's are high? Thanks for the info!:)

yes that's slipping the clutch

but don't be making 4000+ clutch drops at every stop :D

2000 should be suffice for daily driving :D

Really, most of these issues should be covered in some detail in the owner's manual when you finally get the car. I wouldn't worry about it too much in the mean time...

Originally posted by grogiefrog
When I was 16 in 1986, I was given an '80 RX-7 GS.

HOLY COW! When I was 16 in 1957 my dad bought me a 1937 Dodge sedan for 25 bucks. How much did your dad pay?:)

Originally posted by jd62


HOLY COW! When I was 16 in 1957 my dad bought me a 1937 Dodge sedan for 25 bucks. How much did your dad pay?:)

1957? Wow! Was that 25 dollars, or 25 male deer?

Can you even find a used tire on a steel wheel for $25 these days?

ALWAYS use the parking brake when you park the car. My experience with the rotary was that even if you parked it with the transmission in first gear, the car required very little motivation to roll down slight grades if the parking brake was not set. Mine did have a light-weight flywheel that may have been the main cause of this phenomenon, but it is also true that there is relatively little (compared to a piston engine) rotational moment of inertia to keep the thing from rolling.

Just my experience...

here's my $0.02

i have a '87 TII, and have owned an FC for the last 5 yrs. if you're buying an auto, ignore all this shifting hooah, and trade your car in for a stick, lol

my quick tips:

1. ALWAYS have a quart of 20W-50 motor oil in your car. it could save your engine's life.

2. keep the RPM's above 3500. if they drop below this, DOWNSHIFT.

3. use driving next to a nice sports car as an excuse to downshift and run up to the redline.

4. celebrate each new tank of gas with your own personal 0-60 test, resisting the temptation to shift until you hear the buzzer, and realizing if you dont waste gas, then some V8 pissed on ford with a pimply-faced 16 yr old driver will.

as for you standard guys, here's what i do with my turbo.

if i am in a deserted area and no fast cars are around, or any people worth impressing, then i just let the clutch out till the car starts rolling, and before the engine dies, i give it some gas. this is my save the clutch method.

in the event i pull up next to a, say lexus or truck or something with power, and i dont want to be teh last off the line, i slip the clutch at 2500 rpm. i then wait till 4K to shift, after i've gotten good power but before i waste too much gas.

if i pull up next to a ricer, or a corvette or mustang, etc, i slip the clutch at 3500 or above and push it hard to 5K or above, depending on their speed.

also, as for smooth take offs, that should not be a problem. since rotaries dont have as much torque, an accidental drop clutch at 2K will not spin the tires.

i have a stiff FD clutch in my FC TII, and i have mastered the smooth takeoff, even at below 2K. since the designers of the 8 have put more emphasis on drivability, this clutch should be much easier and smoother. smooth take-offs will NOT be a problem, i can assure you. if they are, just practice in a parking lot late at night.

rx7aggie, 73JPS, Thanks for your posts! There are other good ones on previous pages! That is the info I just knew was out there, but not getting conveyed to us rotary newbies.

The parking brake info is one of several that was especially appreciated. I would have never thought of that. rx7aggie, you really put me in the driver's seat there. Good writing. Good info.

Keep the posts coming! I'm just not gonna clog the thread much with replies for every one.

I, and my fellow rotary newbies who are reading this thread will reply with questions when/if we come up with any.

THANKS!!!:)

I had an 87TII at one time also. I always warmed up the car properly before shutting it down. But it still flooded every once in a while anyway.

The solution was simple. A friend of mine installed a switch to disable the fuel pump. Therefore allowing the engine to crank with the existing fuel without extra fuel being sprayed into the engine by the injectors. Once the car got started I would immediately turn on the fuel pump and away I'd go. It didn't solve the problem of the engine actually flooding, but it made starting the car easy.

(I think I made the correct technical explanation, but if not someone else can correct me.)

When I was 16 in 1986, I think that 1980 RX-7 costs about 3k with 80k on it. It had had a bad "Earl Shive" paint job put on it, but it was sure a fun car. I would not give a 16 year old a car like that! I later upgraded to a loaded GSL-SE 1984. That was the best of the 1st generation RX-7.

Both cars had issues with cold weather. I carried a bottle of a starter fluid to spray in the 1980's carb (I parked it outside in the dead of a Colorado winter... it would make her crank at any temp!!). I just had to make sure not to release the key on the 1984 until she finished cranking, or else she would flood. But it didn't often happen, and you won't have these issues on the new RX-8's. Give a Rotary fuel and she'll run.

Rotary Rotary Rotary! Am I 16 again? Dang! No!

I thought I would resurrect this thread. The good old 7 owners I think are just getting a bit tired lately of answering the same old questions perhaps. Some good info here,especially about flooding, if you ask me. The originator of this thread really must have been a great guy! :p

This was a great read...thanks! :) I'm going to go drive my baby now.

I owned an 1980 RX-7 that I bought new and traded in 1984. My tips are:

1) Keep a quart of oil, funnel and rag in your trunk.
2) All Rx's will attract always woman. I met my wife that wanted to drive my car,
3) My '80 was a dangerous car when pushed to its limits. So take it easy until your sure that you understand its characteristics.

Yes, thanks for reposting this thread. I will be sure to do more driving the hell out my car. Forget the mpg's it really is about the fun anyway right!!!