This is pathetic, damn cops! they just never give up do they! :mad:

This is pathetic, damn cops! they just never give up do they! :mad:

pls do tell the story now....
btw, looked at your sig, whats custom leather :confused:

Hey....do the crime, do the time. It's not as if you didn't know you're not allowed to drive an RX-8. I'm surprised that you're the first "P" plater on this forum who's reported getting nabbed. An RX-8 with a "P" plate would be a beacon to an observant copper.

What happens now? They watch you and ping you every day?

Do you have an RX8???

If so, that'd be an easy ticket to have dissmissed:

"Your Honor - this dyno print-out CLEARLY shows I do NOT drive a high-powered vehicle..."

:D

I don't understand, can an Aussie please explain this "high powered vehicle" fine? Sounds pretty lame to me... :(

So you got fine about you dirve a RX8 because it is a high powered vehicle?

Don't believe it man. ELITEred-rx8 he got full over becuase his mods. but never say he can't drive the car.

so how much is the fine? points? or they have other things to stop P plate driver??

.......a series of different coloured plates, for provisional licences, they are limited speed/hours/passengers/displacement and power. (no more than 125 kw per tonne of vehicle weight)

Keeps 'new' drivers out of V8s, turbos, etc.

S

So it's basically a learner's permit. At least you didn't need someone of legal driving age to sit in the front passenger seat with you like you do here. At least that's how I remember it here in Texas.

the fine was about $100 dollars, no points lost and they even let me drive the car away. all they said was the car was listed in the vicroad site about being high powered vehicle and Ps can't drive them. i've been driving for like a year now with the car with no troubles at all from cops wut so ever but this is the first time. and i only had like a month to go untill i get my full!!!. thats just bad luck
i even tried to argue about with them about the fine being so pathetic, but they told me they saw a P plate die driving a high powered vehicle in front of thier eyes. but i reckon it's the behaviour that you drive the car that leads to accidents not coz of the car!!! dont you guys think so???

There's a 'one hand...and then on the other' about this. First, there is a correlation between road deaths, high powered vehicles, and young (sorry, inexperienced) drivers -- so the data does support the reg. It has been more strongly proven in relation to motorcycles.

But on the other, the thing that p!sses me off is that there is absolutely no recognition given to those younger (more experienced) drivers who have undertaken more advanced driver training. So there is no incentive in the reg system to positively change behaviour and ensure improved, safer skills, although I understand some states (NSW?) are giving consideration to this.

Half-assed thinking about road safety really sucks!

I don't understand, can an Aussie please explain this "high powered vehicle" fine? Sounds pretty lame to me... :(
Well in Victoria there is a 125kW/ tonne limit to the P plate driver... such an old law but your RX-8 just is higher than that

There is also a limit to 5L engine. 3.5L per tonne or something.

They said if you drive a modified car. You should have prove that your vehicle does not exceed this limit. So have a dyno sheet (or a shit one) in your car LOL.

Whitout mentioning car colour or name a certain Australian member with considerable driving skiils within yes a few hours of getting his brand new RX8 managed to crash and wreck his new toy to the tune of a $30,000 repair bill .

Took the panel beaters nearly 3 months to get his car back on the road , keep that in mind before you go out and play . :D

cheers
michael

There has been a great deal of discussion in the media recently about the high accident and fatality rate of young drivers, particularly male young drivers. Here's a brief synopsis:
1. That portion of the brain involved in assessing and modifying risk-taking behaviour doesn't mature in males until their late 'teens, and does not reach full maturity until the mid-'20's. Given the natural variability among human beings, it is quite possible that this portion of the brain may never mature among some, which could explain the actions of L&L's acquaintance.
2. A recent survey of young teenage males showed that most considered themselves able to drive safely at speed. They considered that their "superior" reflexes were a good safeguard. Most had no idea of the relationship between vehicle speed and stopping distance and the effect of vehicle mass on stopping distance (eg, the difference in driving a car with a full passenger load and one with the driver as sole occupant). Most considered high-powered vehicles to be suitable for new drivers. (In my opinion, a lack of understanding of Newton's Laws of Motion or their implications is responsible for this - the education system has a part to play in making general science compulsory into the final years of high school and ramming home these very simple and practical principles of basic physics).
3. There is little evidence to suggest that advanced driving courses modify risk-taking behaviour in younger driver's - in fact they might work the other way.

For what it's worth, I would consider raising the minimum age to obtain a driver's licence to 18, as it was when I got my licence. Other restrictions on the power/mass ratio of the vehicle (I think 125kW/t is way too high - it should be based on an unmodified Hyundai Excel), number of passengers, alcohol blood limit etc. should apply until the driver is 25 (yes, 25!). They would then be able to apply for an unrestricted licence, subject to a satisfactory driving record.

Whether or not we as a community are willing to bite this particular bullet depends on the courage of politicians (now there's an oxymoron!) to confront the problem of disproportionate fatalities among young drivers. The current measures are piss-weak at best. Politically, the easy way around it would be to wait until compulsory voting is abolished. If voting was made voluntary, most young people wouldn't bother, so you could rip the legislation through no sweat.

i think all they want is commission from the fine!!!! :mad:

i think all they want is commission from the fine!!!! :mad:

.....which just goes to prove my point about maturity among younger drivers.....

So you got fine about you dirve a RX8 because it is a high powered vehicle?

Don't believe it man. ELITEred-rx8 he got full over becuase his mods. but never say he can't drive the car.

so how much is the fine? points? or they have other things to stop P plate driver??


what mods did they made ELITEred-rx8 ban?

.....which just goes to prove my point about maturity among younger drivers.....

:rolleyes: hahaha, nice one

Labrat

Your analysis is sound in a lot of respects but consideration also needs to be given to the enforceability of any such regulations. The present regulations encourage those on provisional licences driving cars over the posted power limit not to display their "P" plates, thus making enforcement more a question of chance. Alternatively, it encourages the disguising of a breach by driving a "Q" car that is more powerful than the stock version.

It has long been good lawmaking policy that a law which is unenforceable is bad law. That policy sits side by side with the policy that a law which most people disobey is also bad law (posted freeway speed limits coming to mind here folks?).

Young people will always think they are eternal and bullet-proof no matter what regulations are enacted. Those who wish to take risks will find it just as easy to kill themselves in an Excel as in a RX8. The kind of maturity we are discussing does not magically appear at the age of 18 or even 25. We all know guys well into their twenties and early thirties who still take ridiculous risks on the road. If you wish to reduce the rate of young fatalities the only sure way is to stop everyone under 25 from driving at all. That is simply unworkable for any number of reasons.

Young people must be allowed to take some risks in general life in order to discover where the limits lie. To remove all risk removes part of the human identity. However, we are talking about an endeavour where the lives of others are also capable of being affected.

My personal view is that education is the key. Not some one day course that teaches you how to power slide. I believe licencing should be subject to more long term and intensive instruction. A compulsory tour of most busy Hospital Emergency centres on a Saturday night and presentations by those who have been seriously injured in a motor vehicle accident can also work wonders.

BTW, those who have followed John Cadogan's excellent series of articles on road safety in the press and Wheels magazine will know that speed is less of a contributor to fatalities than the revenue raisers like RTAs would have us believe. When you think about it, any public institution with the responsibility to at least partially fund road building and other works has a vested interest in propping up the thinking behind revenue raisers like speed cameras.

It is great to see this kind of debate being fostered in the media. We're obviously not doing the right things to keep our young drivers alive. Let's hope we start doing the right thing before too many more die.

For what it's worth, I would consider raising the minimum age to obtain a driver's licence to 18, as it was when I got my licence. Other restrictions on the power/mass ratio of the vehicle (I think 125kW/t is way too high - it should be based on an unmodified Hyundai Excel), number of passengers, alcohol blood limit etc. should apply until the driver is 25 (yes, 25!). They would then be able to apply for an unrestricted licence, subject to a satisfactory driving record.

Whether or not we as a community are willing to bite this particular bullet depends on the courage of politicians (now there's an oxymoron!) to confront the problem of disproportionate fatalities among young drivers. The current measures are piss-weak at best. Politically, the easy way around it would be to wait until compulsory voting is abolished. If voting was made voluntary, most young people wouldn't bother, so you could rip the legislation through no sweat.

Age is not the only thing.... labrat. This is a very grey attitude to the whole thing :rolleyes:

I agree in most point though. People should not be driving high power car without knowing the danger or knowledge of controlling one. I am assure you most Ferrari drivers are shit driver and there are many 30 year old moron driving V8s. What are you going to do with those people? What are you doing to do with the tradsmen driving their SS ute down the highway at 120kmh? You will find me isolating the particular group, but I think people are isolating the young drivers too!

People need to be educated. And yes I think the current driving course and test is far to inferior adn too easy. They should have more on road education and I am not wanting everyone able to race on the tracetrack.

Have you seen people talking about the driving course and said they are fun. They expect to be able to show their stuff. Actually the densive driving course is education and meant to be boring. But it is something that you need to learn, so as the maths in your 4th grade. Otherwise, you will not be able to calculate your mortgage.... I think it is the same with driving.

My personal view is that education is the key. Not some one day course that teaches you how to power slide. I believe licencing should be subject to more long term and intensive instruction. A compulsory tour of most busy Hospital Emergency centres on a Saturday night and presentations by those who have been seriously injured in a motor vehicle accident can also work wonders.

Agree 100%. I think the driving course should be more involved. We spend 12 years of schooling and 6 years of uni to become a medical profession. I think Driving carry similar responsibility as caring for an individual. Not that I am proposing a 12 month driving course but, for me, got my license after 20 hours of tutorial. I can stay I am glad to be alive today.

I am still doing PM on car deaths. So stay away from Gippsland please ;) Die somewhere else.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=53062&page=5&pp=5
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=54621&page=1

Check out those link if you want to see them. Silver one is my and red which is my friend's. not turbo or anything. but enough to get police piss off with both car.

my friend go full over and found he had no licence but driving S2000. so gave him fine. but the police let him drive the car home too.

Police just trying to give up fines thats all i guess.

Move to Sydney.

In my area, every few "high powered" car usually would be a P-plater.

As for myself I've gotten away with running 2 red lights and twice for driving a manual car with an auto license. I must say, government treats us youngsters much nicer in NSW.

So do they expect you to sell your car over there in victoria if you own one of these high powered cars?

Vic Roads states (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrne/vrnav.nsf/childdocs/-56D2423AB8E3B28CCA256EC900144F45-13A36B1D8885A8DCCA256EC900144F58-621AF98380D8598CCA256EC900144F60-2932C939C05728EECA256B660015129F):
High powered vehicles
While you can drive most vehicles, you are not permitted to drive a high powered vehicle. These are vehicles which have a power to weight ratio greater than 125 kilowatts per tonne or with a capacity to weight ratio of more than 3.5 litres per tonne. A list of cars which may not be driven is available from VicRoads Customer Service Centres or you can view the restricted vehicle guide (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrne/vrnav.nsf/LinkView/EC6C6E2D3A136FC3CA256FD2007E87BDFC06B247A5425C42CA 256EC900144EC0).

You may drive a high powered vehcile if your employer requires you to drive it in the course of your
employment, or if you hold an exemption issued by VicRoads. VicRoads will only grant an exemption if:

is the only car owned by your family
---------------------------------------------

Unfortunately the 8 has a Power to weight of ~130KW/tonne at the flywheel according to manufacturers spec.

The part that bugs me in all this is the number of P Platers I see driving V8 commodores and falcons which are so blatantly against the power/weight ratio that they make "Most Common vehicles" list http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/vrpdf/rdsafe/Jan05RestrictedVehicles.pdf. I can go so far as to say that I know a number of P Platers that have cars like Maloo's and even just standard Commodores (but are clearly on that list issued by VicRoads themselves) that are registered in their own name...So VicRoads has allowed a P Plate driver to register a car in their own name that is defined by them as illigal for them to drive!!

Dont get me wrong, I dont beleive in the fact that all P Platers should be banned from them, but there should be something to stop those P Platers (both male and female) that have no idea what damage they are only millimeters from causing with their vehicle.

Andrew

they don't ask to sell the car. i think just fine and money~~~~

now i see somehting really stupid.
P plate can drive S2000 but not RX8.

why is that????
haha.

I think a lot of stupidity amongs the young driver is due to peer preassure. This happens when mates get in the car and they decide to find out what the car can do.

skc

I am almost 30 and I have to say that I still do some silly things on the road, these silly things only endanger me, no one else. I never have passengers or do them on roads where there are other users. Mostly however they are done on track days.

Labrat, if you raise the minimum driving age then you will just get people maturing behind the wheel at an older age, people still will experiment regardless of how old they are (within reason of course). I am all for more detailed driving instruction and also random driving tests like tax audits. If you fail the test then you have to under go further instruction.
I am actually in favour of limiting car power for certain drivers, too often I get young drivers in a Skyline or WRX that has been worked try to race or try to show off when clearly they have no idea how to control a vehicle. Limiting the power of a car for drivers will reduce the tendancy to show off the performance of the vehicle. This is my opinion.

I think driving instruction as part of high school (like in the USA) is a great idea. You have to do this before getting your L plates. Then additionally passing a driving test before getting your L plates is also part of this high school program.

Personally if you want to slash the road toll there is one simple and fundamental method. 3 points and a $400.00 fine for not keeping left unless overtaking on all roads. Stops drivers taking silly risks and would also lower road rage.

Guys the minimum driving age here is 15. SO DAMN SCARY!

However, the gist of this thread is not debate on sensibility of the driving regulations in Aus, (I've actually had licences in all mainland states!..... I gotta get a life...)

However, the reg's although intellectually debatable are clear, so play outside and you take a risk...ie you know you are outside the law but you take a gamble...

Hate to be a wet blanket but the downside for the rest of us is that if someone who is in a vehicle which is outside their licence provisions is uninsured.

No argument...(am sure there is at least one legal eagle floating around in the forum, if I'm wrong I'll eat the humble pie, )

Ie you drive a vehcile for which you are not licenced then you are uninsured.

And Gibbo, i followed some tool doing 39k here for 2 km today and i agree, but different issue.

Shame you just can't throw some bags of concrete in the boot to reduce the power to weight ratio (but get the benefit of better rear end traction) ;)

Personally if you want to slash the road toll there is one simple and fundamental method. 3 points and a $400.00 fine for not keeping left unless overtaking on all roads. Stops drivers taking silly risks and would also lower road rage.

Totally. Most stupidity that I see on the roads (and from time to time am guilty of) comes from this. MOVE OVER!!! :mad:

I'm not in favour of this sort of law. I hate it when the majority are penalised as a result of the actions of a minority of drivers.

P platers are an easy target, but there are a lot of bad drivers out there of all ages. Tougher liscencing and education are the real answers.

There's a interesting twist on this in the motorcycle world, where similar pwr:wt regulations apply (nationwide, I think). Some manufacturers (BMW is one I know) supply versions of their road bikes with power derated, for use by L and P platers. The bikes are then retuned after the ride has passed the qualifying period.

Perhaps we should see if Hymee or Canzoomer can developed a derated ECU :eek:

Taka, Gibbo, of course you are going to get 30, 40 and older drivers who are morons. But the fact is that 40% of road fatalities occur in the 18-25 age demographic. If you are going to have the biggest impact on the road toll, this is where you should be maximizing your efforts. The point of this latest research is that we are now learning why young people put themselves and others at risk on the road. When you know why, you have a hope of doing something about it.

Personally, I think that there is a certain proportion of the population (predominantly male) who should never be allowed a driver's licence because they are psychologically unsuited to the task. Think about it: the guy who seeks to project his masculinity by the way he drives a car (speed, aggression). The kid with a car full of mates who responds to their demands for thrills by taking risks. These are immature responses. By its very name, immaturity is predominant in the young, but there are many people who never grow out of these things. How do you keep the chronically and pathologically immature person off the road? How about psychological testing? This has become very sophisticated over the past 50 years or so, and it should be possible to design tests which would weed out those people who should never be allowed to drive a car.

By the way, I take issue with the notion that it's OK to do something dumb with your car as long as no one else is on the road or in the car with you. Someone is always hurt if you end up as a hunk of meat on Taka's slab - your parents, your mates, your girlfriend or wife, your kids, even the cops who have to look at the disgusting mess that once was you.

Labrat

Glad you are in your laboratory and not in charge of running the licensing section for motorist , there would be no cars or drivers on the road , unless they met your exacting standards :eek: LOL

cheers
michael

Labrat

You are trying to apply black and white standards to a world that lives in colour.

Your argument could be applied to many other activities (e.g. having kids). A lot of people occasionally (or even regularly) fall short of the standards of behaviour regarded as ideal. Is that a reason to ban them from the activity altogether!!??

Like it or not, the only way most people gain the kind of maturity you are talking about is partly through risk-taking. Maturity is not simply the product of the passing of years. It is what we do in those years that makes us wiser and more careful.

The trick is to provide enough instruction and monitoring to ensure that younger drivers have the skills and knowledge to live through that period.

How do you keep the chronically and pathologically immature person off the road? How about psychological testing? This has become very sophisticated over the past 50 years or so, and it should be possible to design tests which would weed out those people who should never be allowed to drive a car.

Crikey, labrat, you're getting into some fairly controversial areas here :eek:

There's one other statistic that always frightens me: that there are an estimated 45,000 drivers out there on Australia's roads today, who are suffering from dementia! Yet the licence re-testing for over 80's is pretty mild, based on the experience of my father. And these (older) people get pretty sh!tty when they lose their licences and mobility...probably just as sh!tty as young bucks ;)

It's dangerous ground to start limiting people's freedom based on stricter state controls. And driving is regarded as one of those freedoms. Psycho-testing is still a fairly inexact science...perhaps, drawing from George Orwell and Ken Kesey, it should be supported by appropriate drug therapy (there's sure to be a great drug to calm down any macho urges), or partial lobotomies, in the hardest cases! :p (damn, where is the tongue-in-cheek smiley?)

I am 19. Am i as disgraceful of a driver as you guys are putting it? I've seen some guy about 40 in a BA Falcon with his 6 year old son next to him, influencing me to hit the loud pedal at the lights. You old guys need to set a good example, honestly. :D

I am 19. Am i as disgraceful of a driver as you guys are putting it? I've seen some guy about 40 in a BA Falcon with his 6 year old son next to him, influencing me to hit the loud pedal at the lights. You old guys need to set a good example, honestly. :D

We all do dumb things RXP33D. It's just that most of us do more of them when we're younger.

I think that law is fair. With all due respect, there are too many dickheads here in NSW that are driving big power cars (modified WRXs, Skylines, Supras, etc) whom neither have the skill nor the maturity to handle it.

Granted, the RX-8 isn't a big power car - but you gotta draw the line somewhere.

FFS, when I was 18 there was no way I could afford these kinds of cars - me thinks the maturity of these blokes has got a lot to do with breeding...

Was there Any indication of what might happen if you were caught driving your Rx8 agian?

me thinks the maturity of these blokes has got a lot to do with breeding...
From what I see its more "in"-breeding :rolleyes:

All I am saying is that if you have 40% of the road fatalities in the 18-25 age bracket, where are you going to put the primary emphasis? No other age demographic has such a high rate, even us demented oldies.

OK, I don't like anecdotal evidence, but last Saturday I was picking up some booze at the Liquor Superstore in Keperra. Group of young blokes (around 20-25) in the car park getting stuck into the beer, loud, staggering, pissed as newts. All got into their cars and drove off.

IMHO, the argument should come back to appropriate penalties and good policing, as opposed to the rather lazy form of law enforcement we actually get.

The law should be about really penalising dumb, stupid, dangerous behaviour...backed by a police program which, if not in reality, at least creates a strong perception of a high likelihood of getting caught for such behaviour.

Penalties? Confiscation of the driver's car for, say, a three month period for a first offence. Confiscation and sale for a second.

Policing? Well, nothing beats more patrols -- a more visible presence. But that's expensive, so perhaps detection and prosecution via more elaborate CCTV systems, especially in urban areas where cruises can often turn into something else.

Publicity? Nothing beats a good public flogging. Pictures, names and addresses.

I would prefer all of this to some odd form of law which discriminates on the basis of age and some arbitrary pwr/wt ratio -- the latter having nothing to do with behaviour -- I have seen young kids doing stupid things in Corollas, Lasers and ... (gasp) Excels!

Does it work? Well, I reckon the whole drink-driving campaign has significantly changed behaviour, across all age groups. Tough penalties, back by highly visible RBT

I'd still prefer to see the money Timbo would like spent on more police, cameras, advertising, etc on better driver education and instruction.

Hey, don't get me wrong! I'm all for good education and instruction...but I'm not sure it will deter stupid behaviour :(

So what do you think will be the first thing these kids do once they get off their P's? Buy an even faster car with the money they saved after 3 years of driving an underpowered bomb, and make up for lost time.....

You wouldn't be on this forum unless you understood the pshyche behind owning a fast car and getting enjoyment from pushing it from time to time. People will find a way....

The answer is simple...

Just apply a similar system/regime to the one that Wildcard had to go through to fly his avatar.

Education and testing. I recall years ago there was an F111 pilot at Amberly who was 17.

Can someone explain to me the difference?

Cheers,
Hymee.

timbo, I agree with you whole heartedly ... There are people who know when where and how (and how much) to push their cars. I am SICK to death of seeing people doing 60, 70, 80 + k's down a street that is barely wide enough to fit 2 cars side by side where there are always kids playing, doing burnouts at midnight, etc, etc. Where is the law enforcement? On the Main Rd/Freeway sipping coffee watching the camera tick over.

Where is the education and enforcement?

Andrew

but limit P plate not to drive high power car is a way to help the death.

but......some how i think police should more check on who is doing it. but not always just gives out fine. some P plate just mod car. but they dirve slow. why they always get fines but not the one who drive fast,
that is what i think tho.

There was a thread in Ausrotary earlier this year about street racing after a couple of people died in Sydney. There was a lot of heat and smoke about the illegality of this and how unfair it was that society seemed to penalise people who just wanted to have 'fun'.

I pointed out that in fact society had been penalising people that just wanted to have 'fun' but created dangers for other in the process for some time; in fact, 'furious riding' (now 'driving') has been on the statute books for some time

Whosoever, being at the time on horseback, or in charge of any carriage or other vehicle, by wanton or furious riding, or driving, or racing, or other misconduct, or by wilful neglect, does or causes to be done to any person any bodily harm, shall be liable to imprisonment for two years.

In this context, I have been unsuccessful in finding a "Far Side" cartoon by Gary Larsen to post, which shows a group of young cowboys on horses around one young rider who has fallen off his horse, which is lying battered and broken after running into a tree. The caption is "So what are you going to tell your father?!"

I think the biggest issue that faces young drivers today is apathy.

Think about it. Centuries ago, those who wanted to indulge in 'furious riding' managed to organise themselves -- without internet forums -- to the extent that today, there are at least two race meetings within 50k of 95% of the Australian population at least twice a week (ok, I made the stat up, but I'll bet it's pretty close).

That's how society organises itself to meet otherwise conflicting goals.

The basic issue in relation to young people in cars gets touched upon, but no-one seems to want to take action to resolve, is the lack of facilities -- or perhaps even more accurately -- the lack of those willing to organise facilities -- so people can race in some safety, without endangering others. Anyone involved in car clubs knows how hard it is to find volunteers to run these things. So then it is left to commercial operators "who charge too much money"!

I recall years ago there was an F111 pilot at Amberly who was 17.

Can someone explain to me the difference?

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hymee

I'm no pilot but I would imagine the difference is as follows:

1. The aircraft is being operated in a serious environment without 3 half-pissed mates sitting in it expecting you to do burnouts or traffic light drags.

2. The pilot has benefited from some pretty intensive instruction and testing, while being told several times along the way how damn expensive his toy is to replace.

3. A pilot of that age would have the benefit of an older peer group and mature leadership.

4. There aren't many telegraph poles up there. :D :D

The basic issue in relation to young people in cars gets touched upon, but no-one seems to want to take action to resolve, is the lack of facilities -- or perhaps even more accurately -- the lack of those willing to organise facilities -- so people can race in some safety, without endangering others. Anyone involved in car clubs knows how hard it is to find volunteers to run these things. So then it is left to commercial operators "who charge too much money"!

Timbo

Even if there were enough people with the will to organise regular amateur track days, another impediment is insurance.

The owners of tracks like Oran Park have very strict indemnities built into their hire agreement which basically gets them off the hook even if an accident is due to failure on their part to properly maintain the track, etc.

Many non-commercial would-be hirers cannot afford or even obtain the insurance required, which makes the whole thing far too risky to entertain.

I know a fellow who ran motorcycle track days at Oran Park. Although he tried to run a professional outfit with the requisite safety briefings, medical back-up, track inspections, etc, it all came apart when a goose overcooked it, came off and decided everybody but himself was to blame. Result: protracted and expensive litigation and no more track days.

Revolver,

Point 1 has some merit - the bit about the pissed mates.

Points 2&3 - Why should it be any different. That is my whole point - intensive training and testing.

Point 4 - Yeah that is a funny one. Might not be any pole up there, but there is a big hard thing called the earth, and if you fall out of the sky it is one helluva whak-fuk when you hit it.

As for the cockhead who cooked it and went to town on eveybody else... FFS. No wonder this insurance things is getting out of hand. People can't take responsibility for their actions, and f@ck it up for everyone else. Cockhead.

Cheers,
Hymee.

I can't believe some of the wank attitudes i have read in this thread.

17 year olds may well drive like dickheads in RX8's but they will also be dickheads in Datsun 120Y's. I know which one is safer to drive fast and i also know which one i would rather crash in.

Australia stop being such a pack of Nazi's and realise that you can't legislate against everything. Many young people will be reckless regardless of the type of car they are driving. Remember we were all young once. The road safety campaign in this country is based on a pack of lies. We have more road deaths per head of population than Germany and its non speed limited autobahns. Why you may ask, because our roads are shit and theirs are good, plain and simple. Road safety here is not about real road safety, its about justifying revenue raising through ridiculous laws and speed limits.

It really makes me angry that so called car enthusiasts like many of you nod approvingly at many of these draconian laws.

Zephyr i feel sorry for you mate. Being punished for driving a nice/safe car simply because you are young. Just take off the plates and keep driving it mate, f&%k them!!!

Thats right man. just drive.

was talking to my friend the other day.

Like idolo said. if you drive a fast car but not safe. and you drive a fast car and safe. which one you want to be in??

i think the police need to know which car is safe and which aren't.

not just say that can't drive more than 125KW car.
if thats the case. BMW can be safe but more than 125kw. and some other car can be less then 125kw but you might die if you him with 60 or 70 km per hour.

Revolver,

Points 2&3 - Why should it be any different. That is my whole point - intensive training and testing.

Point 4 - Yeah that is a funny one. Might not be any pole up there, but there is a big hard thing called the earth, and if you fall out of the sky it is one helluva whak-fuk when you hit it.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hymee

Tongue was firmly in cheek on point 4.

I agree with the essential point you're making. I just think we're such a long way from comparing car licencing to fighter jet training that the analogy gets stretched too thin. Agreed they're both highly dangerous when misused - the trick is to get the balance right between increasing the amount of instruction/education required but not to make it so prohibitive that only the wealthy can afford it (i.e. a bit like learning to fly). :)

I never see it at the way that idolo see it....

It could potentially a discrimination case. :eek:

I can't believe some of the wank attitudes i have read in this thread.

17 year olds may well drive like dickheads in RX8's but they will also be dickheads in Datsun 120Y's. I know which one is safer to drive fast and i also know which one i would rather crash in.

Australia stop being such a pack of Nazi's and realise that you can't legislate against everything. Many young people will be reckless regardless of the type of car they are driving. Remember we were all young once. The road safety campaign in this country is based on a pack of lies. We have more road deaths per head of population than Germany and its non speed limited autobahns. Why you may ask, because our roads are shit and theirs are good, plain and simple. Road safety here is not about real road safety, its about justifying revenue raising through ridiculous laws and speed limits.

It really makes me angry that so called car enthusiasts like many of you nod approvingly at many of these draconian laws.

Zephyr i feel sorry for you mate. Being punished for driving a nice/safe car simply because you are young. Just take off the plates and keep driving it mate, f&%k them!!!


As we have said not everyone matures, there are even some older people that don't gorw up.

Idolo, the point of this thread was to promote further training for drivers, promote safer attitudes and take away the immediate temptation of street racing. There is a legitimate reason why so many race car drivers started out in go-karts. They learn to walk before they run. This is the same on the road, put you foot to the floor in a 120Y in the wet and see what happens, do the game in a GTS Skyline or a V8 Commodore and see what happens. It comes down to experience, I am the first to admit that there are many crap older drivers out there, but as has previouslybeen said they are not the statistic here.

I am all for more training and limitations on vehicles more in line with motor cycle laws type of guidelines. This is not draconian, this is simply setting limits for those that don't always know how to set their own.

When will society learn that the actions of the few will always dictate the laws of the many. This is not fair, this is not just, it is the law. I know because this is the very reason I am no longer a lawyer, I could not accept that the law is not fair and it is not just. The law is a set of rules that attempts to make us civilised.

If you don't like a law I suggest you challenge it and fight it for all you're worth, however if you purposely break that law don't winge if you get caught.

That is my 2c worth, like it not.

...

The basic issue in relation to young people in cars gets touched upon, but no-one seems to want to take action to resolve, is the lack of facilities -- or perhaps even more accurately -- the lack of those willing to organise facilities -- so people can race in some safety, without endangering others. Anyone involved in car clubs knows how hard it is to find volunteers to run these things. So then it is left to commercial operators "who charge too much money"!

I don't see a lack of facilities, I see a lack of participation at the facilities!
when I went to the drags it cost me $30 plus fuel (it was Warwick drag 1/8 mile) for as many runs as I could fit it. when I went back through town there was the usual lapping morons annoying the public. why weren't they participating? they just don't want to. you can provide all the facilities you want and the unsocial and dangerous morons will still be doing it on the streets.
unless you don't have a facility within 200km then you can't complain in my book. they should get off their arses and make some effort to go to a venue and stop being apathetic and making excuses.

I wish all P platers were sensible enough to deserve the right to drive whatever they wanted but the fact is they aren't and never will be, as wisdom only comes with age. the rx-8 is a safe car but there is the dsc disable button and as the young Americans on this forum have proved temptation is too strong and misfortune is what results.

I wish the police would crack down on unsafe driving, not speeding. on Thursday I wished a cop would book an idiot in a commodore Ute tailgating me at a distance he couldn't have stoped from. he went on to overtake at double lines on a crest, showing his intelligence and driving skills. education may have helped but I feel most people come away from defensive driving courses with the idea they are good drivers. they get this from all the encouragement you get from making small improvements. at the end of the day they go home with the message that they can break better, not the first message "you will hit the car if you don't leave enough gap an follow to close no matter how well you can break"

Perhaps one of the reasons why there are fewer road deaths per capita in Germany is because of better driver training. Your Dad can't teach you: you HAVE to go to a driving school (Fahrschule). You HAVE to pass both written and practical exams; and they are really tough. And the process is expensive, so a driving licence is a very valuable item. In my experience, German drivers are not only more skilled than Aussie drivers, thay are much better mannered (except when it comes to moving off from the lights). You get about 0.2 nanoseconds to get moving before they toot their horn. BUT, there is no road rage over it.

I agree whole heartedly with better driver training. I mean hell if you base a pass/fail in a test on whether or not you get a reverse park right first go then i'm sure half of us would fail on any random day.

I recently heard a good proposal. Currently P platers in NSW must be on their P's for 3 years. Then why not offer them a chance to do an advanced/defensive/whatever u wanna call it driver training course, at which on completion they are entitled to ditch the P plates after 2 not 3 years. If they couldn't be bothered doing the training then they can cop the 3 years on their P's. The government could subsidise this training with their speed camera revenue. I can see Rotaryeny's point with this perhaps giving them a false sense of security, but you can't control people's attitudes, you just have to hope the training just might one day save their and perhaps someone else's lives.

I also completely agree with the points about driving in the right lane. I must say their is little that infuriates me more. Why don't the government run an add campaign on TV about this. I am sick of the constant adds that go something "like braking from 60km/h takes x amount of metres to stop whereas braking from 50km/h takes x less". What nonsense, in what type of car? How alert was the driver? Did the driver consider steering to avoid the crash as opposed to jamming on the brakes? Did the driver ever learn to check his/her tyre pressures so that the tyres gripped better?

How about an add campaign that says GET THE F$%K OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND LANE. To me this is a far bigger factor in causing possible fatalities than driving at 50 as opposed to 60. I do agree with 50 in quite streets, but it is being way overused.

Labrat you are right about the attitudes of Aussie drivers. I think a major difference between driving in Germany than Australia is the unspoken rule about the hierarchy of cars. VW keeps the way out of Audi which keeps the way of Porsche. Nothing is more annoying than a Hyundai sitting in the right hand lane. All cars were not created equal.

At the end of the day not all drivers were created equal, punishing a young person based on nothing other than their age is wrong. I will never agree with laws like this. There are far more important issues that need to be addressed first.

How about an add campaign that says GET THE F$%K OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND LANE. To me this is a far bigger factor in causing possible fatalities than driving at 50 as opposed to 60.
LMAO!!! :D :D :D

Or what about "If you have been doing 20 under for the last 10 mins and have a chain of 30 cars backed up behind you, PULL OVER"

It also helps that most German autobahns are about 1 million times better than the goat track that passes as the major highway on the east coast of Aus.

Germans might just be better at moving over because they've usually got four lanes to pick from.

Having said that, there's absolutely no excuse for being in the right lane unless you're overtaking - and that goes for everyone - i.e. us, not just the Hyundai drivers.