Do you think the 8 looks better with or without the rear wing spoiler if it has the appearance package??
I am undecided on it. I added it on my package a few weeks back after seeing some pictures of the black 8, but I'm getting silver and I am considering dropping the spoiler. I do like the look of the appearance package I just can't decide if it looks right on there. The pictures from the front angle seem nice, and directly behind doesn't seem too bad, but the side veiw gives the look that its just to high. I wish the back was a little bit lower.
I also wish we could get the lip spoiler that is offered in Europe.
Any comments?
Would like to hear everyone's 2 cents.
Thanks:)

I was under the impression that we COULD get the lip spoiler. Isn't it in the accessories pamphlet?

edit: I should have mentioned that I too am debatiing the wing spoiler. Haven't really see any good pics of it until I came across these on the Rotory News site:

RotaryNews Pics (http://rotarynews.com/view.php?id=192)

Unfortuantely, after seeing these... I'm still undecided. grrrr.

i to was contemplating the spoiler and discussed it with my wife and we both thought the car looked better without in our opnion.so we did not add the spoiler and if i see a aftermarket one i just have to have then i may add on later.

I thought it looked good at first but after seeing it in different angles, it looks better with out it. I would wait for an aftermarket lip spoiler if you wanted that instead.

I don't like the rear spoiler because it takes away from the uniqueness of the vehicle. In two words "Mitsubishi Eclipse" comes to mind. A lip spoiler might look good but it won't be cheap given the position of the third middle brake light just under the lip. I do not believe a lip spoiler is a U.S. manufacturer option due to the middle brake light. In Europe they have that neat fog light in the rotary accent.

I thought about getting a spoiler but the clincher was imagining opening that relatively small trunk. Not gonna happen for me. Okay so that was 5 cents worth. You asked for it. :D

Originally posted by OmegaBob
wing spoiler.

...wing-spoiler?? ... you can really only have a wing, or a spoiler... :confused:

I just called it that to differentiate it from the lip spoiler. ;)

But to spoiler or not to spoiler... that's the question....


EDIT:

HEY! Rear "Wing Spoiler" is what Mazda is calling it too!
Accessories (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4870)
Hence, I will continue to call it a "wing" spoiler as well! :D

btw - I was wrong about the lip spoiler - it's not listed - booooo! :mad:

I too was contemplating the LIP spoiler, and adding it later, but after looking at it and with the discussion in another thread, I decided against it. For one, the car from the rear has a slight appearance of already having a lip, so adding the LIP spoiler did not make that much of an appearance difference. Second, the LIP spoiler is definately not as functional as the WING spoiler.

Still, I was unsure if I wanted to add Mazda's wing spoiler, wait till later, or go for something aftermarket. I liked it, my wife didn't care, and my 19 yr old daughter loved it. I decided the car looked great either way, and since it would be more convenient to have it port installed and much cheaper, I decided to go for it.

i bought an aftermarket high wing. but i do like the "ricer" fast and furios look. but will have to wait until the car actually gets here to see how it looks before i drill the holes...

I actually did order the rear spoiler. But after I did so, the more I looked at, the more I thought It stuck out like a sore thumb.

It doesn't look that bad with the the aero package added on, but after really debating about it, I came to the conclusion that the car looks BEAUTIFUL all on its own!!!

I dropped the spoiler (non-lip) and added the 6 disk CD changer.

-Rooster

Decisions, decisions!! (omg..the first spelling was a major typo)
I appreciate all who replied on the spoiler issue.
I am still undecided on what to do about it. I know the appearance package will look nice, but I am just not sure about that spoiler. I have family telling me conflicting opinions on the issue as well.
It's a hard choice when all you have is pictures to go by.
I have looked at pictures over and over again. Most show the spoiler on a Red model and a Black model. I've been to the Japanese site that lets you add on all of the accessories and change the cars color, but it just isn't the same as seeing it up close .
aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!

Well I ordered the 'wing' as well as the appearance pkg. I saw it on the black car at detroit and I had to have it! It wasn't too mitsubishish. A little arch to it but not too boy racer either. I opened the trunk on it too and the way the trunk swings up it wasn't anywhere near touching the roof. I do think the wing probably looks best on a black car though (which is what I ordered).

Halleys: did you check out my link above? There are mulitple new pics there with a BLUE 8 with a spoiler.

I did see them, and thank-you very much for posting the link.
I just wish I had some like that in the silver. I am almost thinking I should have gone with the black color choice......now I'm second guessing my decision of the silver. It would be so much easier if they were available to view in person.

What difference does the color of the car make when deciding on the spoiler? You've seen it in red/black or whatever and now you want to see it in silver? If you like it in red you'll like it in silver. If you didn't like it in red you won't like it in silver. It is either you like the look or you don't...the color you see it in won't make a damn bit of difference.

Originally posted by Charleston
I don't like the rear spoiler because it takes away from the uniqueness of the vehicle. In two words "Mitsubishi Eclipse" comes to mind....
c'mon now! "takes away from the uniqueness of the vehicle?!"

if you're saying that the addition of the spoiler makes the RX-8 look more like a "typical" sports car i guess i might see your point.

are u saying that an RX-8 without a spoiler is more unique than an RX-8 with a spoiler?

Sorry but color DOES make a difference in how it looks. Different colors will reflect light differently and cast shadows differently. So the wing would appear more prominent on lighter colored cars. With black it tends to blend in a little more.

took this pic in detroit
http://www.joshjohnson.com/rx8/rx8-rear.jpg

you can kinda see it in this pic not very well though.
http://www.joshjohnson.com/rx8/passside.jpg

~~~~~What difference does the color of the car make when deciding on the spoiler? You've seen it in red/black or whatever and now you want to see it in silver? If you like it in red you'll like it in silver. If you didn't like it in red you won't like it in silver. It is either you like the look or you don't...the color you see it in won't make a damn bit of difference.~~~~~~~~
Goldenhue22



There is a difference to me. Some colors it works with, some it doesn't. I like it on the black 8's pictures, but not on other's I've seen. The angle it has been taken at also makes me wonder.
From my point of view, yes......seeing it on the 8 in my color does make a huge difference in my decision.

Regarding RX-8 Zoomster's comment:

"Second, the LIP spoiler is definately not as functional as the WING spoiler."

The lip spoiler may not provide as much downforce, but it lowers drag from .31 to .30 according to "The Book".

The wing (arch?) spoiler probably increases drag!

I'm hoping someone releases a longer lip-type spoiler for the aftermarket.

Originally posted by HalleysComet

There is a difference to me. Some colors it works with, some it doesn't. I like it on the black 8's pictures, but not on other's I've seen. The angle it has been taken at also makes me wonder.
From my point of view, yes......seeing it on the 8 in my color does make a huge difference in my decision.


IMO, I think the bottom line is whether you like the arch spoiler design or not. If you are unsure of whether to get it, don't. If you see it in person, and change your mind, you can add it. It's better to wait then regretting it later.

Here is a pic of the silver with the spoiler. LINK TO SILVER (http://www.wavidart.com/images/WavesRX8silver1024.jpg)
It should give you a good idea of what it looks like. I based my buying decision on the visual I saw of my red one.

Originally posted by KKMmaniac

The lip spoiler may not provide as much downforce, but it lowers drag from .31 to .30 according to "The Book".

The wing (arch?) spoiler probably increases drag!


KKM,

I respectfully disagree. I believe the wing (arch) spoiler would DECREASE the drag further than the lip spoiler.

Originally posted by RX-8 Zoomster


KKM,

I respectfully disagree. I believe the wing (arch) spoiler would DECREASE the drag further than the lip spoiler. I don't see how, since there is a big bloody hole in it... and it's not angled in a way that would put more OR less downforce on the car.

It's really just aesthetic.

drag is induced by turbulance behind the car too not just from frontal surface area. Changing the flow of the air at the rear of the vehicle can reduce drag a little.

Regarding my last comment:

The Yamaguchi book says the optional rear spoiler reduces the drag coeffient from .31 to .30, but it doesn't say if it is the arch spoiler or the lip spoiler.

I guess aesthetic considerations could be the determining factor to spoil or not to spoil anyway.

The small lip spoiler that is supposed to be available in Canada and not (so far) in the US is by far the classier spoiler. The wing thing is fugly.

what sold me on it is I couldn't justify not taking a fairly inexpensive step to improve the efficiency of the car. this makes sense for me because i drive a lot of highway miles. around town drivers it wouldn't have much impact on.

it's not much, but 1-3% change on drag, hence gas mileage at "speed" for a couple hundred bucks is worth it. plus it helps break up that massive wedge shape that Mazda worked so hard to build into the car.

Originally posted by KKMmaniac
Regarding my last comment:

The Yamaguchi book says the optional rear spoiler reduces the drag coeffient from .31 to .30, but it doesn't say if it is the arch spoiler or the lip spoiler.

I guess aesthetic considerations could be the determining factor to spoil or not to spoil anyway.

again: there is a wing (the "arch spoiler") and a spoiler ("lip spoiler")... i challenge someone to invent a wing which decreases drag. the spoiler will cut drag, the wing increase it. (<- that's a period, friends)

...but duh, aesthetics is the main reason anyone would put something like that on their car anyways, and i really have to say: seeing the MazdaSpeed wing on the yellow RX-8 in another thread has really convinced me that i'd either go for the spoiler, or the MS wing... forget the Genuine Mazda "wing": useless.

Originally posted by Edge
what sold me on it is I couldn't justify not taking a fairly inexpensive step to improve the efficiency of the car.

it's not much, but 1-3% change on drag, hence gas mileage at "speed" for a couple hundred bucks is worth it.

...this is (rumoured??) the reason why all the Mazda's for the UK and Europe are fitted with spoilers as standard equipment... or, conversly, they knew they could get Americans to pay extra for them ;) (standard on all of our "thrift minded" Canadian models).

I was fortunate enough to drive an RX8 company car a couple of days ago that has been making the rounds at Mazda's corporate office in Irvine. As you might suspect it was fully decked out. It had the spoiler and I found it better than I anticipated. I fits the cars rear curves quite nice and does not take away from the rear view mirror in a way that reduces visibility.

Originally posted by wakeech


decreases drag. the spoiler will cut drag, the wing increase it. (<- that's a period, friends)

..

You may have never noticed this. But spoilers are upside down wings. Saw and felt the one in detriot. My mx-6 was this way too. Flat on the top curved on the bottom. It creates negative lift = down force. While at the same time changing the air flow/turbulance behind the car thus reducing drag as well.

Hehe, the amount of drag we get on these cars isn't really important because I don't think too many of us will be going that fast where it makes a difference.

Let's just say its aesthetic and leave it at that. I personally like it without... some like it with. Big woopie :0

Originally posted by jdj1971


You may have never noticed this. But spoilers are upside down wings. Saw and felt the one in detriot. My mx-6 was this way too. Flat on the top curved on the bottom. It creates negative lift = down force. While at the same time changing the air flow/turbulance behind the car thus reducing drag as well.

*ahem*

sir, i don't mean you any disrespect, but i know (very well) what i'm talking about. a wing, be they generating force either up or down, is a wing. whenever you diffuse air ("stretch" it) to create a low pressure zone, there is energy needed to "pull" the air apart. the more you do this, the more energy it needs, it's really quite simple. this in effect creates a helluva lot of drag, but it's kinda neat the way downforce works: with an increase in speed, the energy needed to diffuse the air (drag) increases linearly, while the force generated (in a "simplified to perfection" model) increases exponentially... i'm not exactly sure of all the mathematical relations off the top of my head, but rest assured: wings create drag. (<- again, period)

a spoiler is an entirely different beast as an aerodynamic device: it's basically a dam for air. creating a slight high-pressure zone at the base of the spoiler, and immediately in front of it, most of the laminar flow coming over the car is influenced to distribute itself evenly over the top of the spoiler, thus creating immediately behind the spoiler a very low pressure zone, which because of the angle a laminar flow would have to follow to fill it, is filled with a small pocket of turbulence. this pocket of turbulence then effectively "streamlines" the top of the boot, and with the air given that extra kick upward discourages it from simply "spilling" over the edge of the rear deck (there forms a large 'waterfall" of turbulence at higher speeds when this happens) and flowing in a more linear, laminar fashion. this is where the drag reduction happens: you pick up some turbulence, and slap a wall on the back of your car, but reduce net turbulence behind the car (the rest of the void is filled with air streaming around the sides, and up from underneath, helping also a little with rear-end lift).

wakeech your kung-fu is strong... :D

...sheesh, i'm Thread Creepo 20XD6... back on topic...

my vote goes (again) to MazdaSpeed wing :D... well, i'd like it better without the ricey adjustable pillars (unessarily higher drag), but not everything is perfect... one could always just fibreglass a fairing over them afterward anyways...

I just hope ricers don't do some research and stumble upon the Chaparrals around 1970. Mind you, this is in the early days of wings and downforce. It most likely created massive downforce, I'm sure lots of drag accompanied it. Then ground effects on the Lotus came along 8 years later :)

http://www.group7.suite.dk/assets/images/Chaparral2F-001.jpg

Back on topic, I will not be putting a spoiler on my car. It looks perfect as it is.

Originally posted by wakeech


*i'm not exactly sure of all the mathematical relations off the top of my head, but rest assured: wings create drag. (<- again, period)


Actually, any body passing through a medium creates drag. The larger the cross sectional area of a body, the larger the drag, hence the low profile of sport cars. Drag is also increased depending on the shape of the body, hence the shape of the wings. The real trick is to keep the flow laminar over the body, hence different shapes of wing design. But sometimes you want to create turbulent air to induce a laminar flow over the body, hence small vortex inducers on top of 727 wings to eliminate drag. I could try to explain mathematically, but who really cares?

Originally posted by wakeech


*ahem*

sir, i don't mean you any disrespect, but i know (very well) what i'm talking about...wings create drag. (<- again, period)


well, actually you don't. there are numerous causes of drag:
- frontal surface area
-- all of us can agree darts fly better than balloons
- turbulence
-- all of us can agree that turbulent air slows us down
- lift induced drag
-- all of us can intuitively guess that you pay for down force
- vortices and other funky stuff
-- all of us can agree we don't understand aero 100%

the wing arch on the RX-8 is a WING. it always will have some drag due to it's frontal surface area and how the air flows over it. if the angle of attack on the wing is such that an up or down force (let's hope down) is being generated there will also be induced drag directly proportional to the force generated. it could also be placed in such a way that no lift / force is generated and no drag would be induced.


Originally posted by wakeech


a spoiler is an entirely different beast as an aerodynamic device: it's basically a dam for air. creating a slight high-pressure zone at the base of the spoiler, and immediately in front of it, most of the laminar flow coming over the car is influenced to distribute itself evenly over the top of the spoiler, thus creating immediately behind the spoiler a very low pressure zone, which because of the angle a laminar flow would have to follow to fill it, is filled with a small pocket of turbulence. this pocket of turbulence then effectively "streamlines" the top of the boot, and with the air given that extra kick upward discourages it from simply "spilling" over the edge of the rear deck (there forms a large 'waterfall" of

Here's the cool part of that wing arch. Guess what? It can have the same effect. Let's assume Mazda put it on there at the correct angle and down force is being generated. This means there is a low pressure area under the arch. There is also a high pressure area above the arch, and in front of it due to the frontal area of the arch hitting the air flow. Okay, go back and re-read your description. Finally, the arch will generate a downward flow immediately off the end of it, but at a slightly higher location than the end of the deck, so it should help air smoothly fall over the end of the car. Hmmm... seems like this will have almost exactly the effects you're describing but without that lip spoiler or an air dam.

If we're going to talk aero over the car and drag, you need to consider the car as a system, not just one little piece of it. The whole car is a wing. It's also got lots of features that are generating all sorts of eddies, vortices, turbulence, you name it. Drag induced by one small piece (a fairly aerodynamic arch) is probably minimal compared to the barn door effect of lets say the mirrors? Obviously if it generates lots of down force, you will have lots of drag, but I don't think it looks like there's going to be huge down force off this arch. I suspect it's just enough to generate the desired aero effects, just like the lip spoiler.

//ejw

I think Edge described it well. I was hoping not to have to break out my engineering books and run formulas! :)

Originally posted by Charleston
I don't like the rear spoiler because it takes away from the uniqueness of the vehicle. In two words "Mitsubishi Eclipse" comes to mind. A lip spoiler might look good but it won't be cheap given the position of the third middle brake light just under the lip. I do not believe a lip spoiler is a U.S. manufacturer option due to the middle brake light. In Europe they have that neat fog light in the rotary accent.

I thought about getting a spoiler but the clincher was imagining opening that relatively small trunk. Not gonna happen for me. Okay so that was 5 cents worth. You asked for it. :D

Word, In my opinion, the spoiler just makes it look like an other sports car. If you don't want to stand out, get a rear spoiler.

?????

Originally posted by desmo996
Actually, any body passing through a medium creates drag.The real trick is to keep the flow laminar over the body, hence different shapes of wing design. Originally posted by Edge

well, actually you don't. there are numerous causes of drag.

when did i say anything to the contrary?? yes, i know all about this stuff... when i say "all about" i mean i was an F1 fanatic for 3 years before becoming a rotorhead, and i know ALL about this stuff... i dont' remember the equations anymore (just fuzzy memories), but the relationships are still clear, the experimental knowlegde and outcomes are still up here *taps head*.

...this was one of my favourite places to explore:
http://www.aae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/

Originally posted by Edge
it always will have some drag due to it's frontal surface area and how the air flows over it. if the angle of attack on the wing is such that an up or down force there will also be induced drag directly proportional to the force generated. it could also be placed in such a way that no lift / force is generated and no drag would be induced.

...i'll tell ya something about nearly every single factory "wing" of this nature: they have an aerofoil profile which looks like a big, fat trapezoid. they're often configured to a 0* AOA... they often make no downforce at all. the MS wing on the other hand would actually generate some, and is of a far thinner chord, with much nicer curvature along the chord... blah, i'm rambling, this is beside the point.

never did i say that an aerofoil won't create some little amount of drag, even if not creating a net pressure difference (say, an aerofoil which is concave on both planes). you're repeating things i have already said, what is it i don't know/am wrong about??

Originally posted by Edge
Here's the cool part of that wing arch. Guess what? It can have the same effect.

...no, it doesn't. the drag and lift created at the back of the car is from a net upward force being generated from air above the car being sucked down behind it, and then pulled along behind it as it moves forward (the "turbulence waterfall"). the spoiler inhibits the rear of the car from collecting the air off the rear deck by physical impedence, and as i said before, with the turbulent vortex "carried" along behind it. with just a wing, there is nothing to prevent air from cascading down the aft side of the boot lid.

you seem to be under the impression that the air under the aerofoil has an upward vector after the low-pressure moment, and it doesn't: if the flow around the aerofoil is laminar, then after the moment of diffusion just tries to return to its origional state of rest. supposing that rest WAS reached before the end of the boot lid got there (duh, it wouldn't) the air would still be sucked down behind the vehicle, regardless of whether the wing was there or not. at very high speed, where there is almost no progress back toward rest, there may be some very small reduction in the contribution to turbulence behind teh car from air moving over the car, but certainly not at the level of the spoiler... not even close, by any measure.

Originally posted by Edge
If we're going to talk aero over the car and drag, you need to consider the car as a system, not just one little piece of it.

...this is what i'm not getting: that's not what my post was about in the first place, it was about RX-8 Zoomster's statement about the wing being lower drag than the spoiler; it isn't.

also, yes, you CAN just talk about the aerodynamics of a specific area inside a system, and this is how windtunnel research is done. of course there are big picture considerations which have to be addressed (and note never did i say anything to the contrary, as you seem to suggest), but there is certainly merit to analysing specific areas.

Originally posted by wakeech
?????

when did i say anything to the contrary?? yes, i know all about this stuff... when i say "all about" i mean i was an F1 fanatic for 3 years before becoming a rotorhead, and i know ALL about this stuff... i dont' remember the equations anymore (just fuzzy memories), but the relationships are still clear, the experimental knowlegde and outcomes are still up here *taps head*.


uh, my impression of your argument is, "OMG the wing arch will generate HUGE amounts of DRAG! (especially induced drag 'cause it's generating lift) Why would you want that POS?!" My answer is it's going to have drag from various sources, potentially greater than the lip spoiler, but it can have drag reducing effect on the entire car just like the lip spoiler.

by the way, I think multiple years/courses in aerospace, aerodynamics, fluids, etc probably are sufficient for me to figure out what the heck is going on around this spoiler, but i could be wrong.


... factory "wing" of this nature: they have an aerofoil profile which looks like a big, fat trapezoid. they're often configured to a 0* AOA... they often make no downforce at all.


okay, so what? your earlier arguments were about the sky falling because there'd be so much more induced drag. now you tell me it's not going to generate lift, hence minimal induced drag. probably has more drag than the lip, but not that much more.


never did i say that an aerofoil won't create some little amount of drag, even if not creating a net pressure difference (say, an aerofoil which is concave on both planes). you're repeating things i have already said, what is it i don't know/am wrong about??


uh, i was pointing out that your end of the world drag scenario was not accurate (as in i think there's less drag involved than you do). and the net pressure difference can happen to any air foil regardless of shape as long as it's at the right angle of attack, but we normally talk about symetrical air foils (top 1/2 looks like bottom 1/2 ) at 0 degrees AOA doing this.

... vortex "carried" along behind it. with just a wing, there is nothing to prevent air from cascading down the aft side of the boot lid.

you seem to be under the impression that the air under the aerofoil has an upward vector after the low-pressure moment, and it doesn't:...there may be some very small reduction in the contribution to turbulence behind teh car from air moving over the car, but certainly not at the level of the spoiler... not even close, by any measure.


we disagree. i said (and specifically went back to fix my post because i typed in the wrong direction the first time) that there would still be a downward flow off the back of the car, but it would be happening from a slightly higher departure point (namely the end of the wing instead of the end of the deck). It also will be more energized to push off the back of the car because of the low pressure zone under the arch (assuming downward force generated). Air is accelerated under that arch if it's working correctly so, as all the air streams try to come back together again, they should be more laminar, but also more energized and at a better position to get the hell away from the back of the car. i'd have to know the AOA and a bunch of other stuff to actually predict the angle the air would take off the back of the wing, I don't think it will over come the downward trend of all the air coming over the car, but I do think it will have the effect of simulating a longer back deck, then when the turbulence finally starts acting on the area behind the car the car will be farther upstream.

Conceivably with absolute miraculous engineering you might even get the vortex to rotate up away from the car instead of down, but then if you get it to rotate down properly you might even recover some of that energy (try searching on klein-fogleman air foils for more on using vortices in this way)


[/B]...what i'm not getting: that's not what my post was about in the first place, it was about RX-8 Zoomster's statement about the wing being lower drag than the spoiler; it isn't.
[/B]

The amount of drag generated by a wing arch generating down force is probably greater than the drag generated by a lip spoiler. However the point of RX-8 Zoomster's post was his opinion that the effect on the overall system (read entire car aerodynamic performance) would be better. He thinks the wing arch is more effective at providing better aerodynamic performance than the lip spoiler. It has nothing to do with whether the lip spoiler is a bigger or smaller barn door than the wing arch.

I agree with his opinion based on the concept that the arch wing can provide both functions, overall reduced drag and probably some down force if it's designed and placed correctly. If it hasn't been done, then it's just a piece of eye candy doing me no good, but that's a different story.

Last word, I know we test parts of aerodymic systems in wind tunnels, etc. However, when it's all said and done and you want the right answer, you put the whole thing in the tunnel and see what the heck is happening. Lots of aircraft that never got the full tunnel test had very serious problems once produced, even when all the parts worked great in isolation.

well, damn u people post way too much info. so I just skip it... personally I am getting the spoiler because the mazdaspeed one is ugly and a bit ricey for my taste. the lip kit which is hardly anything I skipped because I am putting another aftermarket kit on the 8

Originally posted by Efini 8
well, damn u people post way too much info. so I just skip it... personally I am getting the spoiler because the mazdaspeed one is ugly and a bit ricey for my taste. the lip kit which is hardly anything I skipped because I am putting another aftermarket kit on the 8

You bet! I'm done. Unless somebody says something bad about my mother, I don't have anything more to say on this.

My 15 yr old son totally abhors the typical nonfunctional wing. It's old hat. Argyle. Loose it.

I agree with him.

If it looks nonfunctional, it is (whether it really is or not). Loose it.

I wouldn't do my RX-8 with a functional wing, not until I were to relegate it to actually racing it. Classical beauty - maybe so. I'm more into romantic beauty here. Otherwise, I'ld be buying an EVO VIII. No wings/spoilers on my sweet thing's rear end, please! Looks good enough all by itself.

Spoiler - maybe but probably not. I'm gonna have to see one for real and decide it's really worth it - probably isn't.

A good artist knows when to lay the brush down.