I am a complete noob when it comes to car audio. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about home high-end audio. I worked for years doing acoustical design and engineering on high end systems. My job varied from simply adding acoustical treatments for systems that were in some way compromised by the room they were in to designing custom rooms that went with the characteristics of $100,000+ systems. We did everything from picking the carpet to designing the dimensions of the room with an architect to rerouting HVAC systems and reinforcing walls to reduce ambient noise. I also have a physics degree and took some classes in acoustics and fluid dynamics. I'm not trying to impress with my credentials, just to point out that I have *some* idea of what I'm talking about with audiophile stuff. I just know absolutely zero about car audio, and have never even bought the factory upgraded stereo, much less an aftermarket one.

Anyway, on to my question. Could someone please explain to me exactly what it is people are trying to get out of their car audio systems? I'm really *not* trying to start anything or troll, I am honestly curious. From my experience with home audio, the absolute single most important thing is controlling ambient noise. If the room isn't absolutely dead silent, the money you put into a high end system is wasted. If you get everything just right, the idea is that the sound is supposed to exactly mirror what the artist intended to put on the recording. It should not add anything (like extra highs or extra lows). It should be transparent, meaning that if you close your eyes you cannot determine the source of the sound and you can't tell that there's anything between you and the artist. It should have physical space, as though you could get up and walk around each separate musician. It should play to a volume that matches the volume that the artist would be at were they in the room. It should transport you to the venue in which it was recorded or the place they tried to emulate in the studio.

Obviously, none of that is possible in a car system. Again, I'm *NOT* trying to knock car audio, I'm just trying to get a better understanding. There are lots of reasons it's not possible, but the most obvious one is that you cannot have a perfectly silent environment. Any background noise means that you are blanketing whatever frequencies match the road/wind/engine/etc. noise. It's a bit like looking at a Van Gogh with sunglasses on. Another problem is glass. The biggest threat to image, soundstage, and transparency is a hard surface that produces a primary reflection and thus, a secondary source. In other words, if there is a glass table in front of the listener in a home system, they will have reflections off the table that will kill any semblance of an image or soundstage. There is an additional and impossible to correct for source of sound. There are more problems, but these are the two main ones and this is getting long.

Since you can't achieve the goals we try to achieve in home systems, what is it that you're trying to achieve? Is it simply sound that sounds good to you? Is it simply high SPL? One reason I'm asking this question now is that I have recently heard a few car audio systems that have treble so incredibly bright that it feels like glass scraping across my ears if I'm within 50 feet of the source. Inside it must be like ice picks! It?s the equivalent of the super loud bass on most cars. Is this generally considered "good car audio", or is this just some idiot trying to impress people and failing? Much more common is extraordinarily excessive bass. Is this generally regarded as a good thing in the car audio world, or those guys just wannabes?

Sorry for the length of the post, I'm truly curious about this because I simply don't get it at all. I wanted to make sure I was clear in my exposition so that the answers would be in line with what I'm trying to learn, and so it would be clear that I?m not trying to trash something I don?t understand.

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by Rich
...Anyway, on to my question. Could someone please explain to me exactly what it is people are trying to get out of their car audio systems? The thing is, there isn't a common goal. Just like with other facets of the automobile industry, where available models and available aftermarket are a wide variety of styles and tastes, so it is with sound systems. Just like there are people out there who will put a coffee can exhaust on their Civic, three friends in the car, and go challenge a Ford Lightning, there are people who throw any cheap sub in the car and literally go make noise. Just like there are those who put alot of money into a show-car that never drives on the street, there are those who put that kind of money into show systems that are all flash and SPL. Just like the show-cars, they are completely impractical, pure fantasy cars. And just like there are legitimate tuners (and wanna-be tuners) who are in it for the performance, there are installers and amateurs who install for the listener, not the car next to them. Frankly, alot of what you see out there in the mainstream is more for flash and attention as it is for listening to, just like a good portion of the "custom" parts on cars like big wings, coffee can exhaust, and 20" rims.

But just like the performance market, there are those of us who put systems together for ourselves. In our homes, alot of us can't go and soundproof a room or arrange everything to benefit the acoustic signature. But just because we can't get close to optimum, or state of the art, doesn't mean that we are going to give up and just get a 13" TV, VCR, and boom box. Instead, we're going to get what we can, and even with mid-range equipment in an apartment living room, we can put together a system that is able to entertain well. Same thing goes for car audio. Just because we aren't able to acoustically isolate the car, or create a good acoustic environment, doesn't mean that we'll give up and just get an AM radio. We're going to put together what we can from our resources. And with good installation, even a system in a convertible with mid-range equipment can entertain well.

Few people actually think that they can get the better sound in the car than in the home. But remember, we are not putting stereos in the car because we think it is the optimum place for listening. We put stereos on the car because that's where we are alot of the time. How one goes about putting it together depends on resources, available space, how much weight you want to add, how much space you are willing to give up, and to an extent, what kind of music you listen to. And for some of us, the challenge, complexity, and creativity draws us just as much as getting good sound in the car.

---jps

You summed it up in every way. there is nothing i can say, but very nice post. I'm speechless :)

Thanks Sputnik. I suspected something similar to what you said. I find it interesting that there's such a huge gap between car audio people and home audio people. Generally, home audio people agree on the fundamentals of good sound although they disagree widely on how to get there and how close certain things get to those goals.

The 13" TV/boombox comments were good as well. I should have done a better job in my message of separating the systems that I worked on with the goals I was talking about. Those systems were just the most extreme examples. I did plenty of systems that I would consider "high end" that were around $1000 because the components were of high quality despite their relatively low price. They tried to achieve the sorts of goals I mentioned much better than a similar cost system from a superstore kind of place.

The challenge of it is an intriguing aspect that I hadn't considered.

Thanks again.

Originally posted by Rich
...The 13" TV/boombox comments were good as well. I should have done a better job in my message of separating the systems that I worked on with the goals I was talking about. Those systems were just the most extreme examples... I understood that you were only referring to the "pie in the sky" systems. I used the 13" TV comment knowing that you worked with different levels of systems, to illustrate that just like you can get good (maybe not perfect) sound in imperfect situations in the home, you can get good (not perfect) sound in the imperfect situation that is the car.

As far as the gap between home audiophiles and the mainstream car audio public, I agree. But that's as much of a cultural difference as anything, I think. There is a minority of people in the car audio world called "tweakers", who like home audiophiles agree on fundamentals, and disagree on how to get there and how close things get. They are the minority (just like real tuners and performance drivers are in the aftermarket world), and they were the ones who really established the car audio industry, but they are out there.

---jps

Visit an IASCA event and listen to some of the cars that were tuned by professionals. I had 10k worth of gear in my car, and I had a solid image, nice sound stage with about as much spaciousness as you can aquire in a car, and won many events. It is possible to achieve great sound in a car (while it sits still and the seat is set back in a position that is undrivable). However, I do agree that I could have had better sound in my home (bit I would have spent a lot more than 10k to get even similar sound and volume reproduction). There were people that beat me and sounded even better. We exist, you just got to know where to look for us.

Pity, however, the worst part of car audio bit me in the ass (easy to rip off), and now some ass that broke my window and ripped my stuff off has gear that he probably won't ever appreciate nor know how to properlly utilize.

Pity, however, the worst part of car audio bit me in the ass (easy to rip off), and now some ass that broke my window and ripped my stuff off has gear that he probably won't ever appreciate nor know how to properlly utilize.

Sorry to hear that. I'm wondering if having a bulletproof window is illegal?

OOOH here is a link to one of those stick figure flash sites and its on car securities. Rated R for violence and contents. You must be 17 and older to view this material. Parents please advise that children under the age of 17 should be accompanied while viewing this clip. Viewers discretion advised.

http://www.stickdeath.com/2003auto.html

And for intro page:

http://www.stickdeath.com/

Originally posted by Y&Y
...Sorry to hear that. I'm wondering if having a bulletproof window is illegal?... I have yet to hear anyone making it illegal yet. Mind you, that's very very heavy item to add to your car, and it is normally a inch thick or more, which means that you need to make major modifications to install it (especially since you need to install it solidly enough that makes it almost impossible to break), and you can't roll your windows down anymore.

The windshield would be the most difficult, and soooo annoying, considering the "fishbowl" effect that the thick glass has.

---jps