I think most people will agree that the RX8 is going to attract a variety of different kinds of customers. For me, the draw is a high reving engine, slick gear box, some space, reasonable gas mileage for a sports car (or near sports car?). For me only two cars that will compete for my $$ will be the S2000 and the RX8. The RX8 has the huge advantage cause it offers some space, but my biggest concern will be performance...especially in regards to handling. My hope is that this car will come close to the S2000 in these areas. Ideally for me there would be a honda IVTEC small 2X2 RWD coupe and a RX8 2X2 coupe, but neither exists....its RX8 and S2000.

Power: Given that we know, the horsepower and torque...and have an idea about how the curves will look....the big question mark is weight. The car will have to weigh approximately 2900 lbs. to equal the S2000's power to weight ratio. However, it seems that the RX8 will have more torque available on the low end which would give it a bit of an advantage at lower rpms.


Handling: This is my biggest concern. How does everyone think the handling of these two cars will compare? I realize great handling cars can have a different feel, but am curious as to how everyone thinks the RX8 will feel as compared to the S2000. I expect it to weigh a little more and be longer and have a longer wheelbase. How will this (especially the longer wheelbase) affect the actual handling as well as the "feel" of the car. Obviously, the S2000 is a limited edition roadster, but then again...this is mazda...a company known for its nimble sports cars.


If Mazda is listening..I ask one thing...make this car light!!! Please have at least one model..available that only has the bare essentials...stereo, powerlocks, a/c (optional maybe?).

The weight listed in the R&T article was 2970 lbs., and there have been many rumors indicating that it will be less than that. I'd expect 0-60 and 1/4 mile times to be similar.

As far as handling, there's always a tradeoff between a soft, smooth ride and high performance. I would love to see the RX-8 be an all-out track car that happens to seat 4, but I strongly suspect that they'll keep it soft enough that the rear passengers won't complain too much. It's body is stiffer than the FD, which is a good sign but doesn't prove anything.

As for the wheelbase, I wouldn't count on that making a noticeable difference. There are many other variables that will have a much larger impact on handling than that, the largest being tuning.

In other words, we have just enough information on straight line performance to only sound moderately ignorant about the car's performance, once it gets to handling everything goes out the window. The R&T article said almost nothing about how it handled, so we're really in the dark.

btw, have you driven an S2000? There's no question it's a great car, but I didn't like it when I drove one. I was looking forward to it for days, but it just didn't do anything for me. It actually made me really happy, because it saved me a ton of money!

Okay, let me try to answer.

Power: The RX-8 is going to be fast. Since the R&T article stated around 6 seconds, I estimate probably 5.5-5.8 seconds on a 0-60 run. Considering a linear torque curve unlike any other traditional engine, the rotary engine in the RX-8 will provide ample power throughout the rev range. Whereas the S2000 took the prize for the 'most power in its engine size', the RX-8 now beats that, with 192 horsepower PER LITER!

Handling: This is why I am getting the car. Look at Mazda's past cars, and even the current ones. Read up, the MazdaSpeed Protege did a faster slalom than the BMW M3, and the Mitsubishi Evo VII. How's that for handling? Let's not forget now, that the RX-8 has a partial carbon fiber chassis (stronger and lighter than steel), equal 50:50 front/rear weight distribution, the beauty of RWD (I enjoy it more than AWD), tight steering characteristics and oh yea... it's 2900 pounds.

The S2000 is a nice little roadster. But first, I hate convertibles. One point to the RX-8. I hate teeny cars. Another one for the RX-8. I like a back seat. Another one for the RX-8.

As all things go, time will tell with the RX-8. But I have no doubt it will outhandle the 350Z, S2000, and many cars above and beyond it's class. This car has not only the engineering of Mazda, but also the devotion and love that comes only from the engineers that worked on this car... on their own time. It's a reputation maker for Mazda, and I will not be suprised if it gets named car of the year by a few magazines.

Read the R&T review if you already havent:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/features/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=7&page=1

Guess who's back....been away. But heres a thing to consider....the most power honda engine makes less than 60 hp at 3K rpm.....if the RX8 has at least SOME lowend grunt, beating the Honda S2000 shouldnt be too hard.

Originally posted by veloceracing
Guess who's back....been away. But heres a thing to consider....the most power honda engine makes less than 60 hp at 3K rpm.....if the RX8 has at least SOME lowend grunt, beating the Honda S2000 shouldnt be too hard.
I believe it was discussed... it's a matter of gearing (something I still don't fully comprehend), and if you read thru the articles on the board, you'll get a better idea of the low-end :)

Gearing is a big help, but if you dont have the power to back up ANY gearing, your screwed. One car that i think we should all look at and adore for its TQ curve is a new Cobra....yes a mustang
390 WHEEL HP from 2500 RPM to Red line
374 FT LBS of TQ from 2500 RPM to Red line :eek:

now if the RX8 can get half as good as that wasting stookies will be childs play.

and oh yeah, nothing sucks worse than a really short geared car for drag racing, it really slows you down. Gas shift gas shift.

if you look at ported rotaries...brap brap....they can go for 14K and then shift, which makes it faster because you are applying power to the wheels more often.

Originally posted by veloceracing
Guess who's back....been away. But heres a thing to consider....the most power honda engine makes less than 60 hp at 3K rpm.....if the RX8 has at least SOME lowend grunt, beating the Honda S2000 shouldnt be too hard.
Define "beating".. At the drag strip, on the track? If I'm not mistaken most S2K's do low 14 1/4 mile runs and I've seen some in high 13's. R&T estimated mid 14's.. so Mazda might have some tuning/weight reduction to do..
Wrt to handling as much as I would love this car to handle as well as an S2000, I don't think it will due to the target market. The S2000 is geared towards the "hard core" racing population.. The RX-8 will probably be made as an more all-around sports car. Hopefully Mazda will make a "R1/track" version for the more demanding enthusiast.. ME! :D

Road and track drive their cars like grandma's. And yes the S2K can do a low low 14, and occasionally a high 13 with a tail wind....but keep in mind the FD3S. Had 255 Hp and 217 TQ, ran 13.5's and 13.3's take away 5 hp and 55 tq, and you might have a high 13 low 14 car like the S2000. And as always Road and Track seems to be constantly over on their weights. Give you an idea, they tested a 1995 Supra TT and it tipped the scales at 3415 roughly, edmunds tests the same car and it weighs in at 3200 lbs roughly....and 200 lbs means .2 on a drag track. That could be the difference between a mid 14 to a High 13

and we havent seen a dyno yet....this could be a ford inspired hp rating kinda like the new cobra...390 hp.....at the wheels :-P

Ha ha.. yeah.. I wish.. It is kinda pointless to speculate anyway until the car finally rolls off the line and the magazine put it through the paces. Plus emission restrictions might come into effect wrt to hp output and such. I'd settle for 250hp if they only reduced the weight to at least 2700lb.. mmm.. wish....

2700!? Highly unlikely. The MINI specs at 2678 and we know how small it is.

Originally posted by veloceracing

Guess who's back....been away.


Good to see you back, I've always enjoyed your insight. :D

I have driven a used Integra Type R. The guy really wanted to sell the ITR ..so he let me go pretty crazy with it. The car was a blast. After going through hell just to test drive a WRX (which didn't impress me that much), I didn't feel like going through the hassle with the honda dealers. From what I have heard, the S2000 does what the ITR does, but only better. Perhaps the S2000 you drove wasn't broken in...or maybe you didn't "drive it like you stole it" (I know I was a bit hesitant when I test drove the RSX-S).

Do you guys think the Renesis will behave similar to the IVTEC engine in the RSX-S? Obviously, the Renesis has more torque and HP..and revs higher, but after looking at the torque curve of the RSX-S it appears that approximately 90% of the maximum torque of 142 comes in at around 3000 RPM and the curve stays relatively flat before spiking up around 5500 RPM and maxs out at 6000 RPM. With a redline of 7900 RPM, this would mean 90% of its torque is available through approximately 62% of its RPM range. This figure is approximately 64% for the RX8. The power curve for the RSX-S is as follows:

2K RPM 40HP

3K RPM 80HP

4K RPM 100HP

5K RPM 130HP

6K RPM 160 HP

7K RPM 190 HP

7.4 RPM 200 HP

Do you guys expect the Renesis to have similar torque and power curves? I've never driven a rotary and have no idea as to its feel.

I'm assuming everything else is equal, which I'm sure is a big omission (gearing??).

The main thing you want is a nice flat torque curve that doesn't fall off much until the end of the powerband. My Prelude H22a engine makes as much torque at 7K rpm as it does at 2.5K rpm.. That's what you need in a small displacement engine with a large powerband and of course proper gearing. Usable torque at the wheels is the secret phrase. :D This is also the reason why S2000's are in the 14 sec 1/4 mile category. You have to rev the shieit out of it but hey, that's half the fun right? :D

ah the mini, the brick shit house of the sub compact car world. That thing weighs so much because of all the crap in it....not to mention the way its constructed...thats alot of sheet metal for a little car. Also the motor aint that light for a 1.6 liter

The mini weighs too much. The celica comes in a 2500 so it's probably not impossible for the RX-8 to hit 2700.

Anyway, back to the topic, I don't expect the car to handle as well as an S2000, but take a spot reasonably behind it. The point of the RX-8 for me, is to get a a car that trades more sport for luxury, but not completely devoid of anemities, like the S2k. There is always a tradeoff, just try to minimize it.

Currently I have a 325i, while a great little car, it is still a tad too soft edged for me. For the same price I would really like to have a car that ups the sport side in a trade off in the luxury department. I really like the road feel and feeling of confidence in my bimmer, and though it doesn't have very high limits, it is very easy to push it there. But now I want the limits set a bit higher. I would like the same sort of feel in the RX-8, but something I noticed in an IS300 that I test drove is that the car is very twitchy on the highway--this I do not like. If that is the consequence of being too sharply tuned, then I'll just have to stick with what I have. Really though it should not be a problem.

The S2000 and RX-8 are targeted at different markets. The S2K customer is a lot closer to the miata customer. The straight line performance will probably be pretty similar between the two and I bet the skidpad performance will be similar. However, it's a difference driving experience, one is a small nimble open top car, the other is a compromise sports car with 4 real seats. The 350Z and WRX are much closer to the RX-8. The RX-8 will have more practicle power deliery because of it's wide power band, whereas the S2k is all up top.

Like a 4, Rotaries don't have a lot of bottom end, but the power delivery feels like what one would expect from an electric motor. The redline is a practicle formality. Unlike a high-ouput n/a 4, rotaries have good midrange power. My big concern with the renesis is that the peak torque number is very low, (about the same as the n/a 86-91 RX-7s). If mazda isn't carefull it could be more 4-cyl-ish.

Well torque should peak at 162 right? Any idea how the curve looks? My prelude weighs 2950 with 156 lb ft of torque peaking at 5250 rpm. It feels pretty good to me.. the torque curve is nice and flat too. I got 168hp/139tq on the dyno with some bolt ons and run 15.0 in the 1/4.. normal numbers for my car. So I figure with 50 extra hp and some more tq the RX-8 should be a great car to drive. Personally I value the overall package a lot more than just straight line acceleration.. that's why I wish Mazda would lighten the car as much as possible.

As an owner of both the new MINI and the S2000, let me say the RX-8 will (I think) be very close in performance to the Honda. Here is my prediction:

Engine - tie
Acceleration - RX-8
Handling - S2000
Gearbox - S2000
Braking - tie
Ride - RX-8
General Comfort - tie
Luggage Space - RX-8
Exterior Styling - S2000
Interior Styling - RX-8
Price - RX-8 (hopefully)
Value for $$ - S2000
Fun to Drive - tie :D

I expect the Mazda to be a tad quicker off the line thanks to more torque, but a tad less sharp in the handling department........not to say the RX-8 will be a bad handler by any stretch of the imagination....will most certainly be a good handling car but I give the edge to the Honda. Both cars have great engines and it will be interesting to see how they compare. The Honda's engine is a jewel - a blast to zing to 9000rpm! Although it may lack power down low in the band, the torque IS fairly flat and while it is no Viper in the torque dept there is plenty. I did dyno my '00 S2000 and it measured 201hp and 132lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels. Power peak is 8200-8300rpm and torque peak is 7500rpm.

The MINI is not a powerhouse by any means, but the chassis is VERY solid and it handles just as good as the S2000 although the ultimate grip is lower.

Engine - RX-8
Acceleration - RX-8
Handling - RX-8
Gearbox - tie maybe?
Braking - RX-8
Ride - RX-8
General Comfort - RX-8
Luggage Space - RX-8
Exterior Styling - RX-8
Interior Styling - RX-8
Price - All dressed: S2000
Value for $$ - RX-8 BIG TIME
Fun to Drive - RX-8

Bets anyone???
:D :D :D

Originally posted by boowana
Engine - RX-8
Acceleration - RX-8
Handling - RX-8
Gearbox - tie maybe?
Braking - RX-8
Ride - RX-8
General Comfort - RX-8
Luggage Space - RX-8
Exterior Styling - RX-8
Interior Styling - RX-8
Price - All dressed: S2000
Value for $$ - RX-8 BIG TIME
Fun to Drive - RX-8

Bets anyone???
:D :D :D
No, but I'll get in on it with you and we can split the money :)

Originally posted by boowana
Engine - RX-8
Acceleration - RX-8
Handling - RX-8
Gearbox - tie maybe?
Braking - RX-8
Ride - RX-8
General Comfort - RX-8
Luggage Space - RX-8
Exterior Styling - RX-8
Interior Styling - RX-8
Price - All dressed: S2000
Value for $$ - RX-8 BIG TIME
Fun to Drive - RX-8

Bets anyone???
:D :D :D

ur wrong, heres how it REALLY IS

Engine - RX-8
Acceleration - RX-8
Handling - RX-8
Gearbox - RX-8
Braking - RX-8
Ride - RX-8
General Comfort - RX-8
Luggage Space - RX-8
Room for 4 - RX-8
Exterior Styling - RX-8
Interior Styling - RX-8
Price - RX-8
Value for $$ - RX-8
Fun to Drive - RX-8

RX-8 - 14
S2000 - 0

winner RX-8

Originally posted by Quick_lude
Well torque should peak at 162 right? Any idea how the curve looks? My prelude weighs 2950 with 156 lb ft of torque peaking at 5250 rpm. It feels pretty good to me.. the torque curve is nice and flat too. I got 168hp/139tq on the dyno with some bolt ons and run 15.0 in the 1/4.. normal numbers for my car. So I figure with 50 extra hp and some more tq the RX-8 should be a great car to drive. Personally I value the overall package a lot more than just straight line acceleration.. that's why I wish Mazda would lighten the car as much as possible.

The RX-8 is not a small car and has some wierd structure. It will have to have all the bells and whistles, so I don't think it's going to get much lighter. I wonder if mazda will even bother with a rigorous wieght reduction program like they did with the 2nd and especially 3rd gen RX-7s. (miata's a pig now-a-days)

Just curious what mods did you have at the time you dynoed your car? (stock is 190 or 200 at the flywheel?)

1991 Miata: Weight: 2182 lbs.
2003 Miata: Weight: 2387 lbs.

I don't see how the Miata has become a pig, when it's just added about 200 lbs. over 10 years. The added safety, conveneince, and performance features have been very significant. With the added government regulations it would have been impossible for it to stay at its previous weight and remain legal for the price that they sell for.

Just for comparison-

RX-8 - 2970 lbs. (est.)
350Z - 3188 lbs. and up
S2000 - 2809 lbs.

All weights from Edmunds.com

200lbs is a fair jump on a car that's "light and nimble." If it truely is a result of safety and there is nothing they could do then I'd accept that. Somehow I don't believe that 200lbs were required. What are the "performance features."

1.6 --> 1.8L engine. A stiffer, stronger body and chassis, revised steering and suspension settings, wider track,structural improvements, alloy wheels, larger diameter disc brakes, and probably some others that I've forgotten about. Those things with dual airbags, glass rear window, power windows, side impact reinforcements, bigger gas tank, bigger trunk, and power steering are pretty significant in terms of the usefullness, safety, and performance of the car. I understand the appeal of the older Miatas, but I much prefer the new ones. And yes, I have plenty of seat time in both.

Since this is an RX-8 forum, we should probably end this soon before the mods shut down the thread.

Sorry for allowing myself to go off track, everyone. I just didn't want to let that comment go.

Originally posted by Snrub

Just curious what mods did you have at the time you dynoed your car? (stock is 190 or 200 at the flywheel?)
Yup, stock is 200 flywheel.. or about 160 at the wheel. Intake, exhaust, pulleys, VAFC. The upper level Honda engines respond terribly to bolt ons.. but the VAFC was awesome with eliminating the VTEC "dip" and smoothing out the curve.

Well we'll see what happens with the RX-8.. I'm still hoping for as light as possible without sacrificing a lot of structural integrity.

I expect the RX8 to handle very well. If you look at mazda's recent cars, MP5, MP3, MP3 turbo all have very good handling stock. Also mazdaspeed releasing parts for the MP5, I expect Mazdaspeed to have parts available for the RX8 too.

I don't want to set myself up for disapointment, so I'll just say that the car should handle a little better than BMW 3 series w/ sport package, or IS300. That is actually fine with me. I'm actually more concerned about how it feels to drive. I want it confident and easy to push. That makes it fun. If a car has high limits, but feel nervous and imprecise, then it has great potential, but isn't any fun to drive.

I don't know what you have to appologize about Rich, the RX-8 isn't even out! Having more discussion improves the forum and promotes the RX-8. I didn't realize all that stuff had been changed.

Quick_lude: You have Intake, exhaust, pulleys, VAFC and improved the peak by 8hp? Is that a full exhaust or just a catback?

When you consider performance, raodholding or skidpad results tell a lot about handling which greatl;y impacts overall perfomance. As most, if not all of us are more interested in overall handling versus stright-line perfomance, the RX-8 should be a huge winner. We know from what we have read so far that the RX-8 "exceeded" 0.90g's in roadholding. Well if it bettered 0.90g's, lets say it just bettered and actually performed at the 0.91g level.
A quick trip to the back of your current Road & track and/or Car & Driver will confirm in their test, that very few cars have exceeded that level of pewrformance on a skidpad. The S2000 certainly doesn't rate in this pack at 0.90.
Get your wallet out then and consider any of the following that actually do better than 0.91.
Astom Martin V12 vANQUISH - $238k - 0.91 (tied!)
Chevrolet Corvette - $54K - 0.92
Dodge Viper "ACR"

When you consider performance, raodholding or skidpad results tell a lot about handling which greatl;y impacts overall perfomance. As most, if not all of us are more interested in overall handling versus stright-line perfomance, the RX-8 should be a huge winner. We know from what we have read so far that the RX-8 "exceeded" 0.90g's in roadholding. Well if it bettered 0.90g's, lets say it just bettered and actually performed at the 0.91g level.
A quick trip to the back of your current Road & track and/or Car & Driver will confirm in their test, that very few cars have exceeded that level of pewrformance on a skidpad. The S2000 certainly doesn't rate in this pack at 0.90.
Get your wallet out then and consider any of the following that actually do better than 0.91.
Astom Martin V12 Vanquish - $238k - 0.91 (tied!)
Chevrolet Corvette - $54K - 0.92
Dodge Viper "ACR" - $89k - 0.96 (nice!)
Ferrari 550 Maranello - $224K - 0.94 (also nice!)
Opel Speedster (What?) - $29K - 0.92 (Can you buy them hear?)
Porsche Boxster S - $58K- 0.93
Porsche 911 Turbo - $119K - 0.93
Now what if the RX-8 actually betters 0.91g's? Won't that be nice and lookout competition!

Just for comparison, the new 250Z ties the Miata at 0.88! Goodbye 350Z...

I wouldn't read too deeply into those numbers. Different test conditions (weather, surface, skidpad diameter, etc). You can't say that car X handles better than car Y because X has a higher skidpad number.

Same goes for slalom times.

It's hard to decisively declare that one car "handles" better than the other based on numbers alone. A lot of that is subjective and boils down to "feel."

Skidpad and slalom times certainly contribute a lot, but the main thing that would convince me of a car's performance would be actual track times in the hands of a skilled driver.

I agree. Let's get started...MAZDA!!!

C&D: 1993 RX-7 R-1 .97g :eek:
Those are 225 tires boys and girls. I've seen higher too.

Stats are fine for some, but it doesn't indicate how easy and compliant the car is when traveling at the edge of the car's performance ability. If the car feels nervous and squirrelly at its limit, you're going to back down until it feels safe, no matter how high its road holding ability is. So don't read too hard into the numbers, as printed stats are no replacement for real world testing.

exactly... what these mags need is the single standardized test that cannot fail to adequately and fairly estimate performance: lap the same road circuit a couple of times with the same driver for every car that is tested. doesn't really matter what the course is, right?? or have two different styles of courses: an autocross track in the parking lot, and test also at a local >1.5 mile road circuit...
i think R+T did that with a bunch of high buck supercars, and they found out that not only did lap times but also cornering speeds and ability in corners had very little to do with skid pad numbers...

I have heard from enough reliable sources now that the handling of the RX-8 "is bteer than the RX 7. It has been hinted that it is really spectacular. I know, we'll have to wait and see but I'm betting my money on Mazda engineering:cool:

I don't trust "reliable sources" *cough*

i'll have to find the article, i know it was linked to on this forum before, but one of the mazda engineers was quoted saying that the handling would be better than the rx7. and in the road and track article the author equated the rx8's handling to the porshe carrera. i'll take his word for it!

I thought R&T referred to the multi-link suspension being similar to the porches'

yes, but the design of the chassis and even body structure have an impact on handling, as well as balance and overall mass. With different tolerances and ranges of motion in the RX-8 multilink than the Porche's, the similarities probably end in the fundamental design, even if they handle similarly (because, obviously, a design that works for one car won't for another...).

Time will tell on the handling, but if they say it's better than the RX-7 I'd venture to say it's better than a lot of things :)

However, when the car is released for advertisements and auto mags... then the real trials begin.

I want C&D to do the write up on it, because they get the best launch times and generally have the best articles. That's why they wouldn't put a piece of shit G35 infront of a 330i BMW, regardless of price.

Road and Track gives it #1 spot... C&D gives it #4. C&D is so cool :)

You know, Herc, the obnoxious anti-G35 swipes are getting pretty annoying. I understand that you don't care for the car, but lots of us actually like that car. Give it a rest.

Originally posted by PatrickB
You know, Herc, the obnoxious anti-G35 swipes are getting pretty annoying. I understand that you don't care for the car, but lots of us actually like that car. Give it a rest.
Just stating my opinion.

You're free to state your case why you DO like the car. I just want a car that has the 'whole package', with good looks inside and out, good performance and an attractive price. The performance is there on the G35 price isn't bad either. But the interior is disgusting and the exterior I always leave up to the individual.

The only thing I've seen in print on road and track about the RX-8 beating the RX-7 is in the structural rigidity, where they didn't even give a specific number.

And yes, the offhand G35 comments are obvious and getting tiresome. If the RX-8 is really so superior, why do you see it as such a threat? Scratch that, just leave the car alone. I happen to like the coupe quite a bit.

Originally posted by Hercules

Just stating my opinion.

You're free to state your case why you DO like the car. I

...
But the interior is disgusting.



There's a reason this is an RX-8 discussion board, Herc. Since you continue to use the forum for your personal anti-G35 crusade, however, I will say that *I* don't think the interior is disgusting at all. Yes, it could use some more refinement and soft-touch materials in places, and the power seat controls should move. No disagreement there. But using button-pushing words like "disgusting" just serves to throw gasoline on a fire. You also seem to be forgetting that it's the first year of the model. I'm sure the RX-8 will have some annoying quirks when it comes out, too.

Give it a rest.

If you want to talk about why I like the G35, I'd be happy to take it up in a thread in the Lounge, BTW.