I was about to post something on the long, and beaten post about abortion, when i realized something i wanted to say about gay marrage.

I'm not gay first of all, and I really don't approve of...well whatever, but i was just thinking. Why is it that I have a right to vote against gay marrage? It doesn't effect me at all. If the guy next door to me got married to another man, nothing would change in my life. Nothing!

Abortion is one thing that can be debated, killing a life, or helping a person who doesn't want a child. I get it...but gay marrage?

Other than religous and personal reasons, which are yours to hold, how can you deny another person of what they want because of religous reasons or traditions? I don't need to claim a religion to get married, why should they be limited by this? No ones being killed here, no ones being hurt, no ones doing drugs that can harm your body and mind, nothing bad is being done, is it? If these people want civil unions, why is it that we ban gay marrage right away rather than look into making civil unions legal? It harms NO ONE, does it? Or am i wrong?

EDIT: PLEASE!!! keep religion out of this, so the thread won't close. Thanks!

Well--my issue is more along the lines of bringing children up in a same sex parental unit household. While I don't agree with homosexuality or gay marriages I don't think its something that effects me one way or another. So I'm more in line with what you are saying.

I understnad what your saying, and I also agree about the children stuff.

I just think when people get in line to vote on this stuff they think, " i don't like gays much, so im voting to ban gay marrage" without giving it much thought.

Shoulda been here for the last Gay Marriage thread. Got a lot of people pissed and feelings hurt.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=43508&highlight=gay+marriage

I'm staying out of this one. :D

Would you say the same thing about making the consumption of drugs legal? I don't think it will directly affect you any more than alcohol consumption does.

I just signed in and saw your post, so figured that I would add my 2 cents. I am not Gay, but rather a Pastor with the Assembly of God Church. Gay marriage is an example of our moral decline in this world.

Marriage is not a civil right! Neither the federal nor the state constitutions confer such a status upon it. Marriage is a privilege granted and conferred by legislative bodies for specific reasons, including its impact on society. Special legal protections and favors have rightly been given to heterosexual, monogamous marriage because, unlike other kind of human friendship or relationship, it has been considered to be uniquely necessary and uniquely beneficial to the perpetuation and well-being of society.

Marriage was never intended to be a means for making official an economic partnership or legal social contract. Nor is it the appropriate means to bring about equality and fairness to a segment of society. Marriage is the social, legal and spiritual uniting of two people (one man and one woman with the capacity to procreate) into "one flesh" in a spiritual act that God makes a reality. As for those who seek to lovingly and compassionately care for the basic needs of others, numerous and very adequate statutory provisions already exist to accommodate hospital visitation, common title to property, inheritance, health care, power of attorney and many other legal necessities.

God has brains! He has very wisely ordered His creation for everyone's good. Violating this created order will only produce chaos and ultimately, destruction. Those who foolishly and arrogantly flaunt or seek to change God's laws will find that they are engaging in the exercise of self-destruction. For those who are willing to face reality there is a much better option - the life-transforming power of Jesus Christ which can utterly change and completely fulfill our lives. This is the message of love, acceptance and hope that we believe and teach.

Pastor Zoom-Zoom

A Pastor who drives an 8? Geez. The pastors I know can only afford a Nissan March at best.

For those who are willing to face reality
This made me laugh for some reason, does that make me a bad person?

the thing about drugs is it harms someone. Thats why i pointed it out. This, on the other hand, doesn't.

wow, just wow.

I can't take anyone seriously when they say things like "For those who are willing to face reality there is a much better option - the life-transforming power of Jesus Christ".

Comedy gold.

I just signed in and saw your post, so figured that I would add my 2 cents. I am not Gay, but rather a Pastor with the Assembly of God Church. Gay marriage is an example of our moral decline in this world.


Pastor Zoom-Zoom

RUN FOR COVER!!

Would you say the same thing about making the consumption of drugs legal? I don't think it will directly affect you any more than alcohol consumption does.
Of course, as long as the drug addicts pay for the consequences themselves. Currently all the non-drug addicts have to pay for the fight against organized crime (police, military abroad, judges etc.), for hospitals, spread of HIV etc.
Why not taxing the crap out of drugs instead of making them illegal? But that's another topic.

^^^ Thanks Padre for getting this thread closed right quick with all yer God speak. :rolleyes:

Before it does close, let me add that I couldn't care less what two resposible people do provided it doesn't harm themselves or anyone else. If they want to have a child and can raise it responsibly, then so be it. Nor do I care about the religious ramifications of gay marriage.

I just don't care.

I was like "Omg morale decline of our world! here comes god's wrath, better take cover!"

A dilated poophole hurts too. Ouch! ;)
the thing about drugs is it harms someone. Thats why i pointed it out. This, on the other hand, doesn't.

I just signed in and saw your post, so figured that I would add my 2 cents. I am not Gay, but rather a Pastor with the Assembly of God Church. Gay marriage is an example of our moral decline in this world.

Marriage is not a civil right! Neither the federal nor the state constitutions confer such a status upon it. Marriage is a privilege granted and conferred by legislative bodies for specific reasons, including its impact on society. Special legal protections and favors have rightly been given to heterosexual, monogamous marriage because, unlike other kind of human friendship or relationship, it has been considered to be uniquely necessary and uniquely beneficial to the perpetuation and well-being of society.

Marriage was never intended to be a means for making official an economic partnership or legal social contract. Nor is it the appropriate means to bring about equality and fairness to a segment of society. Marriage is the social, legal and spiritual uniting of two people (one man and one woman with the capacity to procreate) into "one flesh" in a spiritual act that God makes a reality. As for those who seek to lovingly and compassionately care for the basic needs of others, numerous and very adequate statutory provisions already exist to accommodate hospital visitation, common title to property, inheritance, health care, power of attorney and many other legal necessities.

God has brains! He has very wisely ordered His creation for everyone's good. Violating this created order will only produce chaos and ultimately, destruction. Those who foolishly and arrogantly flaunt or seek to change God's laws will find that they are engaging in the exercise of self-destruction. For those who are willing to face reality there is a much better option - the life-transforming power of Jesus Christ which can utterly change and completely fulfill our lives. This is the message of love, acceptance and hope that we believe and teach.

Pastor Zoom-Zoom

Exacly as I said before, these are your feelings, why should this change the way someone else feels? Would you deny me being a religion other than yours? Would you have it written in the constitution for all to see that there is only one right way to think? If that was an option, i bet you would...Thats the whole point, and while I don't disagree with everything you've said, it's nothing more than your opinion.

You said : "Marriage was never intended to be a means for making official an economic partnership or legal social contract."

Would you agree that it has become that today, even though thats not how it was intended? Cause i sure as hell (err heck :p ) would.

^^^ Thanks Padre for getting this thread closed right quick with all yer God speak. :rolleyes:

Before it does close, let me add that I couldn't care less what two resposible people do provided it doesn't harm themselves or anyone else. If they want to have a child and can raise it responsibly, then so be it. Nor do I care about the religious ramifications of gay marriage.

I just don't care.

Baby Jesus cries when people don't care, and kittens die too.

Hey, since this thread will be closed soon, I have a religous question. I was talking with someone and they said that if you accept jesus into your heart before you die or something like that you can go to heaven. Now, does this mean that if I accept him when I'm 92 I will get the same afterlife as someone who lived with him for their whole life??

I just signed in and saw your post, so figured that I would add my 2 cents. I am not Gay, but rather a Pastor with the Assembly of God Church. Gay marriage is an example of our moral decline in this world.

Marriage is not a civil right! Neither the federal nor the state constitutions confer such a status upon it. Marriage is a privilege granted and conferred by legislative bodies for specific reasons, including its impact on society. Special legal protections and favors have rightly been given to heterosexual, monogamous marriage because, unlike other kind of human friendship or relationship, it has been considered to be uniquely necessary and uniquely beneficial to the perpetuation and well-being of society.

Marriage was never intended to be a means for making official an economic partnership or legal social contract. Nor is it the appropriate means to bring about equality and fairness to a segment of society. Marriage is the social, legal and spiritual uniting of two people (one man and one woman with the capacity to procreate) into "one flesh" in a spiritual act that God makes a reality. As for those who seek to lovingly and compassionately care for the basic needs of others, numerous and very adequate statutory provisions already exist to accommodate hospital visitation, common title to property, inheritance, health care, power of attorney and many other legal necessities.

God has brains! He has very wisely ordered His creation for everyone's good. Violating this created order will only produce chaos and ultimately, destruction. Those who foolishly and arrogantly flaunt or seek to change God's laws will find that they are engaging in the exercise of self-destruction. For those who are willing to face reality there is a much better option - the life-transforming power of Jesus Christ which can utterly change and completely fulfill our lives. This is the message of love, acceptance and hope that we believe and teach.

Pastor Zoom-Zoom

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40613

Excellently put.

But this thread should really be part of the other.

Hey, since this thread will be closed soon, I have a religous question. I was talking with someone and they said that if you accept jesus into your heart before you die or something like that you can go to heaven. Now, does this mean that if I accept him when I'm 92 I will get the same afterlife as someone who lived with him for their whole life??

Yes. :)
Keep in mind, that many who want to wait until the 11th hour to accept Christ, Die at 10:30. ;)

:D

frankly i think the rise of the born again christian theocracy is as morally corruptible to the founding principles of this nation as gay marriage is to the aforementioned group.

i love starting fires in an inferno

But remember blueeyes, you've got to have it approved by a priest dude in order for it to be binding under god's laws.

Like you can't be 92 and go "oh I believe in Jesus Chr *ack*" and die and be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.

Plus you have to pay all the back taxes too, or they keep you in purgatory until your family pays up, because you know, god needs the money. He's putting together a new galaxy and needs the fundage.

I also have issue and concerns relating to children in a gay marriage, my biggest is that if a child is heterosexual and is adopted by gay parents how does this effect the childs menatality on relationships in their future?? Is the child more likely to follow in the parents footsteps now that theyve hammered into the childs head that its ok for 2 men or women to have sexual relations with eachother?? Have they now converted a heterosexual child into a homosexual?? And why or what is the alterior motive of homosexual parents? would they puposely influence a child into homosexuality for spite towards hetero's because of the racism towards gays?.............Im sorry I dont know how else to say this but I feel they seem to be subconsciously wanting to convert normal children into gay children.

I am not gay and am not predudice against anyone but one more question I have is why are there gay parades where they dress up and flutter all over the street flaunting and acting ridiculous?? Ive seen this on the news a few times .........if they claim homosexuality is a natural thing why do they act like that?? I mean people dont dress up in normal clothes and have a parade for being heterosexual

And you cant compare homosexuality with other types of racism/civil rights issues because this is a physical act thats taking place it doesnt have to do with the color of your skin or your religion or where you can eat,or sit on a bus......but about who you want to have sex with.....thats what it comes down to, they are proclaiming " I want to have sex with another man and I want everyone to know about it"

It doesnt bother me unless its constantly thrown in front of me, like being forcefed.

If Im wrong please help me out. :cool:

Baby Jesus cries when people don't care, and kittens die too.
I thought lies make baby Jesus cry. (Simpsons reference) :D

Hey, since this thread will be closed soon, I have a religous question. I was talking with someone and they said that if you accept jesus into your heart before you die or something like that you can go to heaven. Now, does this mean that if I accept him when I'm 92 I will get the same afterlife as someone who lived with him for their whole life??
Why do want to go to heaven anyway? Are there any RX-8's? Are there any ski slopes? Are there any race-tracks? TV-set? Nice beaches? Assuming your family and friends are still living, are there gonna be clones of them up there?

Isn't this what heaven is like? I'll accept jesus for that
http://bfarber.com/screens/%5B%5DVictorias_Secret_Angels_preview.jpg

I am not gay and am not predudice against anyone but one more question I have is why are there gay parades where they dress up and flutter all over the street flaunting and acting ridiculous?? Ive seen this on the news a few times .........if they claim homosexuality is a natural thing why do they act like that?? I mean people dont dress up in normal clothes and have a parade for being heterosexual :cool:


I'm with you on that one. One time I saw a guy walking down the street in a miniskirt with huge muttonchops, and walking a poodle. I don't think even these people are respected by the gay population. They're like the "Jerry Springers" of the gay community.

Hey, since this thread will be closed soon, I have a religous question. I was talking with someone and they said that if you accept jesus into your heart before you die or something like that you can go to heaven. Now, does this mean that if I accept him when I'm 92 I will get the same afterlife as someone who lived with him for their whole life??
Well if you're Jewish you get to go to heaven regardless of whether you accept God or not. Depending on your sins when you die, you could spend as little as one day or as much as eleven months in Ghenna (hell), and then off to heaven you go.

I figure I'm agnostic, but I was raised Jewish. According to Judaism, once a Jew, always a Jew. So if I am wrong about the whole God thing, then I'm good to go anyway. :D

I'm not jewish but I am circumcized, what does that get me?

Leave religion out of this. If I come back after lunch and it's still being discussed, I will close the thread.

What did Bart say? If I lose a leg will it wait in heaven for me?

Why is it that everytime I see Elara post on a controversial topic like this one, my heart starts pounding with excitement?

I also have issue and concerns relating to children in a gay marriage, my biggest is that if a child is heterosexual and is adopted by gay parents how does this effect the childs menatality on relationships in their future?? Is the child more likely to follow in the parents footsteps now that theyve hammered into the childs head that its ok for 2 men or women to have sexual relations with eachother?? Have they now converted a heterosexual child into a homosexual?? And why or what is the alterior motive of homosexual parents? would they puposely influence a child into homosexuality for spite towards hetero's because of the racism towards gays?.............Im sorry I dont know how else to say this but I feel they seem to be subconsciously wanting to convert normal children into gay children.

I am not gay and am not predudice against anyone but one more question I have is why are there gay parades where they dress up and flutter all over the street flaunting and acting ridiculous?? Ive seen this on the news a few times .........if they claim homosexuality is a natural thing why do they act like that?? I mean people dont dress up in normal clothes and have a parade for being heterosexual

And you cant compare homosexuality with other types of racism/civil rights issues because this is a physical act thats taking place it doesnt have to do with the color of your skin or your religion or where you can eat,or sit on a bus......but about who you want to have sex with.....thats what it comes down to, they are proclaiming " I want to have sex with another man and I want everyone to know about it"

It doesnt bother me unless its constantly thrown in front of me, like being forcefed.

If Im wrong please help me out. :cool:
I'm pretty sure you're born gay. I can't imagine someone wakes up one day and says "I wanna have sex with another man (or woman)." Granted some people come out later in life, but I'm sure they knew well before then that they were gay.

I know I cannot think of another man the way I think about women. My love of women feels natural to me. I'm sure gays and lesbians feel the same way.

Maybe one of our gay members will chime in on this.

Ok back on topic: Considering that 50% or something of married people get divorced, why are people so eager to get married anyway? After all you can reduce the probability of ever having to deal with a divorce.

I am not gay and am not predudice against anyone but one more question I have is why are there gay parades where they dress up and flutter all over the street flaunting and acting ridiculous?? Ive seen this on the news a few times .........if they claim homosexuality is a natural thing why do they act like that?? I mean people dont dress up in normal clothes and have a parade for being heterosexual



Wait, I think all of Brazil might be gay too, or at least unnatural. You should see how much fluttering and whatnot goes on at Carnival. :rolleyes:

If gay marriage is legal, I don't HAVE to marry a dude, right?

Right.

OK, then I don't GaF. "The decaying morality of society" cry has been used for centuries, and I don't buy it. Live and let live. Nobody's belief structure is perfect.

It really is Groundhog Day, isn't it? :D

Ok back on topic: Considering that 50% or something of married people get divorced, why are people so eager to get married anyway? After all you can reduce the probability of ever having to deal with a divorce.

i did it once. never again. lesson learned. :D

It really is Groundhog Day, isn't it? :D

hehe yea. :D

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=43508&highlight=gay+marriage

Leave religion out of this. If I come back after lunch and it's still being discussed, I will close the thread.

I wanna marry her...SHE ROCKS!!


Back to topic...if I were queer, I'd be flamboyant as possible. If ya got it, flaunt it bay-beee. :D :D

Ladies and gentlemen, RX-GR8 is now officially gay. ;)
i did it once. never again. lesson learned. :D

Ladies and gentlemen, RX-GR8 is now officially gay. ;)

:eek:

Back to topic...if I were queer, I'd be flamboyant as possible. If ya got it, flaunt it bay-beee. :D :D
That is what gives them a bad rep. with a lot of people. I got some gay freinds and I never knew they were gay until they told me, they were just regular guys with names like Rocco and Steve.

After they told me, they would bring their bf's out for drinks with all our freinds and I swear to god I got so enraged at some of thier bf's for being so in your face about it. On more than one occasion I said "Okay, we get it, you're gay, it's cool, you don't have to be in my face about it all the time, I understand, act normal" then they acted like my freinds and it was cool.

I'm pretty sure you're born gay. I can't imagine someone wakes up one day and says "I wanna have sex with another man (or woman)." i did it once. never again. lesson learned.

:eek: :D

What really bites my ass is that anytime people come out against the right for gays to vote we are labeled as "Haters". So what they are saying is that if you don't agree, accept or support or share their opinion on their right to marriage, you are a hater monger....so now we are not entitled to our beliefs....ya, that's open minded! :rolleyes:


I have as much a right to disagree with your position as you do mine. My moral beliefs tell that gay marriage is wrong. I believe gays have the right to any of the government benefits of marriage but not to the religious right.

I'm tired of minority groups in general lobbying governments to push their agenda and trying to legitimize their cause through political correctness.

My worry is that if gay marriage is accepted and passed as law (which our government in Canada is doing)....where does it stop?..where's the line in the sand?......polygamy, under-age marriage?

It may sound like I am exaggerating to some but from a civil rights argument once you start down that slope, how do you stop? :mad:

Wait, I think all of Brazil might be gay too, or at least unnatural. You should see how much fluttering and whatnot goes on at Carnival. :rolleyes:

If gay marriage is legal, I don't HAVE to marry a dude, right?

Right.

OK, then I don't GaF. "The decaying morality of society" cry has been used for centuries, and I don't buy it. Live and let live. Nobody's belief structure is perfect.

well is it called the gay carnival in Brazil like in NY's Gay parade?? that announces

"THERE IS A GAY PARADE HAPPENING ALL FREAKS AND AND MISFITS PUT ON YOUR THONGS,GARTERBELTS AND HIGH HEELS FOR IT IS OUR ONE FREE DAY TO SHOW THE WORLD WHO WE REALLY ARE AND WHAT WE LIKE TO DO"

...........hey look theres a little boy........ I hope my balls are showing through the front of my thong but when I walk by Ill just stick my ass out in his face just for good measure dont want anyone to not know Im gay :rolleyes:

or is it just called carnival? :rolleyes:

It may sound like I am exaggerating to some but from a civil rights argument once you start down that slope, how do you stop? :mad:
I think you have to look at each issue on a case by case basis. Deal with gay marriage first, then move on to other social concerns. One does not necessarily lead to another.

rotten:

As I understand it, our constitution and laws are there to prevent the abuse of minorities by the will of the majority. Kinda like how it prevents us from picking on Quebec (the kid in the sandbox with the best accent).

Really though, does it matter if people who lust after those of the same sex are allowed the benefits of marriage? What will it take away from my marriage? As far as I can see, nothing.

So let them get married, have their parties, and be free to love each other without being ashamed by it. After all, we're supposed to love our fellow man right?

My worry is that if gay marriage is accepted and passed as law (which our government in Canada is doing)....where does it stop?..where's the line in the sand?......polygamy, under-age marriage?
I guess you still couldn't marry a goat unless you teach it to speak.

The gay agenda is out there folks and someday they will get their way.

There is no medical evidence that gays are born that way although perhaps those who say they are gay say they were born that way.

Talking about carnival: Here's another gay couple or what is it?
http://habi.gna.ch/blog/images/DSC01921.jpg

There is no medical evidence that gays are born that way although perhaps those who say they are gay say they were born that way.
The folks mentioned in this article (http://wmaq-tvhealth.ip2m.com/index.cfm?PageType=itemDetail&Item_ID=105251&Site_Cat_ID=87) would disagree.

I'm with you on that one. One time I saw a guy walking down the street in a miniskirt with huge muttonchops, and walking a poodle. I don't think even these people are respected by the gay population. They're like the "Jerry Springers" of the gay community.

For the record, cross-dressers and tranvestites are not usually gay. CDs and TVs have a fetish. Gays are born gay. In fact, most gays have issues with those that are flamboyant because of the rep it brings them.

It has been documented that children of same-sex relationships grow up to be just fine. Our local paper had an article about one household where the now 23 year-old son grew up with two "moms". He said it was weird sometimes explaining it to friends, but he was loved and nurtured, and appreciates the fact that his family loves him. I think that's what it all boils down to. If there's love in the household, how can that be a bad thing, regardless of what or who your parents are? There will always be obstacles for children to overcome, there will always be kids who tease your kids, there will always times when your kids think they'd be better off without you. We, as parents, give them the tools and the means of getting past these problems. If we are successful, if our children grow up to be good people, I don't care if the parents are single, gay, divorced, married, purple and from Mars.

For the record, cross-dressers and tranvestites are not usually gay. CDs and TVs have a fetish. Gays are born gay. In fact, most gays have issues with those that are flamboyant because of the rep it brings them.

It has been documented that children of same-sex relationships grow up to be just fine. Our local paper had an article about one household where the now 23 year-old son grew up with two "moms". He said it was weird sometimes explaining it to friends, but he was loved and nurtured, and appreciates the fact that his family loves him. I think that's what it all boils down to. If there's love in the household, how can that be a bad thing, regardless of what or who your parents are? There will always be obstacles for children to overcome, there will always be kids who tease your kids, there will always times when your kids think they'd be better off without you. We, as parents, give them the tools and the means of getting past these problems. If we are successful, if our children grow up to be good people, I don't care if the parents are single, gay, divorced, married, purple and from Mars.
Well said, phee

For the record, cross-dressers and tranvestites are not usually gay. CDs and TVs have a fetish. Gays are born gay. In fact, most gays have issues with those that are flamboyant because of the rep it brings them.

It has been documented that children of same-sex relationships grow up to be just fine. Our local paper had an article about one household where the now 23 year-old son grew up with two "moms". He said it was weird sometimes explaining it to friends, but he was loved and nurtured, and appreciates the fact that his family loves him. I think that's what it all boils down to. If there's love in the household, how can that be a bad thing, regardless of what or who your parents are? There will always be obstacles for children to overcome, there will always be kids who tease your kids, there will always times when your kids think they'd be better off without you. We, as parents, give them the tools and the means of getting past these problems. If we are successful, if our children grow up to be good people, I don't care if the parents are single, gay, divorced, married, purple and from Mars.

yea but it was a boy brought up by 2 women............whats the effect of a boy brought up by 2 men or a girl brought up by 2 women?? him seeing his 2 moms together is not going to make him say hey I should try out being with a man because he doesnt see himself in the 2 females.

Lets just take it like this a little boy grows up with a mom and a dad wants to be just like his dad , a little girl brought up with a mom and dad wants to be just like mom, she pretends to be cooking and cleaning for the daddy when she is young playing in her room ...........now a little boy that is brought up with 2 dads or a little girl that has 2 moms still wants to be like mom or dad.......who has a same sex partner what do they pretend in the room when they are alone?

oh and I just had to add its funny how they can claim that kids who see violence in the family may grow up with violent tendencies or kids who play or see violent movies or games create violent tendencies in children what about drinking and smoking?? are these bad habits passed on to our children?

So how come a normal child that is around same sex parents wouldnt want to imitate that?? and create similar tendencies??

All of the gay people I've known have been simply attracted to those of the same sex. As we all know, that urge to fark those that we are attracted to is a base level urge. I don't deny that some homo-erotic activity is "trendy" (ie: like the hot chicks making out on collegehumor.com), but an honest to gosh gay person is simply physically attracted to those of the same sex. It's a wiring thing.

EDIT: PLEASE!!! keep religion out of this, so the thread won't close. Thanks!

You see, the problem is...this is a moral question and MOST (if not all) people believe one way or the other based on their faith, but I just wanted to explain that. This debate will go on and on...most likely no one will change their mind (at least not by reading something or opinions online) so as the fuel economy threads...this has been beaten to death.

This is the quick and easy answer for me without mentioning GOD (opps) or JESUS (oops), it's a matter of morality in our country. Moral decay tends to bring along with it social decay, which then ends in the decline of the nation as a whole.

That's how we that appose (and that was the quick and non detailed answer without mentioning that it's based on our faith (Christians)) base it on. Anyone that really wants to debate...it would be best in a PM to someone that disagree with your position, so the thread does not get closed.

is it wrong that i find the idea of two men together to be wrong, yet find the idea of two women together to be really hot?

I think you have to look at each issue on a case by case basis. Deal with gay marriage first, then move on to other social concerns. One does not necessarily lead to another.



Common sense would tell you that, but when you ad in the government and judges it doesn't always work that way....they rely on precedent. Legally I really want to see what happens with polygamy after gay marriage is made legal in Canada. They are changing the definition of what marriage is....it won't be long till someone takes a polygamy case to the Supreme Court.

OK let me close my eyes and try to visualize this....

IkeWRX + Speed-ER Doc ....................

Kari + Meowloud ......................


Damn right!

is it wrong that i find the idea of two men together to be wrong, yet find the idea of two women together to be really hot?

is it wrong that i find the idea of two men together to be wrong, yet find the idea of two women together to be really hot?

Most women would agree. :D

But to echo rx8wannahave - for people who have a strong religious background, this is a moral issue. If you are a Christian and believe in the word of God, homosexuality is wrong. There isn't a discussion. Morality, income, etc...it all doesn't matter. The word of God says it is wrong; it is wrong.

Now...for those without a strong religious background (well, not necessarily religious but Christian I would think), then it does lend itself to be a discussion of other issues.

Does it bother me to know there is a homosexual couple living next door? Not at all. They can do what they want; they will face their fate at the proper time. Do I want to see two guys walking down the street holding hands like the picture in the previous post? Not at all. Do I want to see two guys making out in the mall? Not at all. But then again, I dont' want to see to women making out in the mall either (well, yeah I do but that is for a different reason
:D )

This is one of the subjects, like abortion, that will always have many people with different strong opinions. Everyone feels their opinion is the right one; and that is all right.

rotten42:

As far as I understood it, polygamy was already legal here in BC. Frowned on sure, but then what isn't frowned on by some interest group somewhere.

Heck, my wife would let me have a second wife I figure, as long as she got to be the "Big Wife". I guess that's what you get for having a Chinese Canadian wife who's father was one of 26 kids by 2 mothers both married to the same man at the same time.

rotten:

As I understand it, our constitution and laws are there to prevent the abuse of minorities by the will of the majority. Kinda like how it prevents us from picking on Quebec (the kid in the sandbox with the best accent).

Really though, does it matter if people who lust after those of the same sex are allowed the benefits of marriage? What will it take away from my marriage? As far as I can see, nothing.

So let them get married, have their parties, and be free to love each other without being ashamed by it. After all, we're supposed to love our fellow man right?


#1...I believe in our government system it’s Quebec that kicks the shit out of the rest of Canada......e.g. sponsorship scandals, transfer payments, political bailouts, political blackmail…. I could go on and on.

#2....They can have the benefits of a legal marriage...not a religious one. Unfortunately people these days seem to forget what a marriage is...this will derogate that even more.


If gays want to live the way they choose, I have to tolerate it, but I don't have to accept it. I view it as morally wrong. My opinion and belief....something worth standing up for.

rotten42:

As far as I understood it, polygamy was already legal here in BC. Frowned on sure, but then what isn't frowned on by some interest group somewhere.

Heck, my wife would let me have a second wife I figure, as long as she got to be the "Big Wife". I guess that's what you get for having a Chinese Canadian wife who's father was one of 26 kids by 2 mothers both married to the same man at the same time.


actually, its not legal anywhere in Canada...its just not enforced in B.C.

I figured it would be something like that.

Sweet Sweet polygamy, how I await your arrival.

I figured it would be something like that.

Sweet Sweet polygamy, how I await your arrival.


I have a wife...any man that would want two wives has been dropped on his head too many times! :D

Gay marriege is immoral and plain wrong. There's a reason men and women have differences in their anatomy. i don't have anything against gay people but my position on marriege is that it is a sacred institution between poeple of different sex not same. :mad:

Sweet Sweet polygamy, how I await your arrival.

How long have you been married? Most men can't manage one woman...let alone two or more of them. What you would like (explain it better) is someone else to have sex with (if you "really" did want polygamy) without that pesky adultery thing getting in the way.

As a man, I understand that...but as a married man I realize how tough (tough as in time spent, going through the hard times together (hard times I would have avoided if I was single) etc etc) it is loving one woman let alone a couple of them.

The fact of the matter is...you really dont' love any of them, or more than one, but love yoruself more. ME ME ME...give me more physical satisfiaction....

Again, I'm not saying you are serious about it or want that, I"m just saying that's all...

yea but it was a boy brought up by 2 women............whats the effect of a boy brought up by 2 men or a girl brought up by 2 women?? him seeing his 2 moms together is not going to make him say hey I should try out being with a man because he doesnt see himself in the 2 females.

Lets just take it like this a little boy grows up with a mom and a dad wants to be just like his dad , a little girl brought up with a mom and dad wants to be just like mom, she pretends to be cooking and cleaning for the daddy when she is young playing in her room ...........now a little boy that is brought up with 2 dads or a little girl that has 2 moms still wants to be like mom or dad.......who has a same sex partner what do they pretend in the room when they are alone?

oh and I just had to add its funny how they can claim that kids who see violence in the family may grow up with violent tendencies or kids who play or see violent movies or games create violent tendencies in children what about drinking and smoking?? are these bad habits passed on to our children?

So how come a normal child that is around same sex parents wouldnt want to imitate that?? and create similar tendencies??

Well, maybe because it IS something that is largely determined at birth? These types of families exist and the children end up as good ol' heterosexuals. And last time I checked, most gay people have hetero parents... :confused:

On the other hand, this whole "what about the children" argument stinks. Its as if people are saying "Yeah, we don't really have anything against gays. We just don't want any more of 'em". Like they're trying to eradicate leprosy or something.

Marriage in our society is about love. It's not strictly about reproduction -- fertility is not a requirement. It's not about religion although you are free to have a religious ceremony. It's about love. Let's leave religious fundamentalism and intolerance to the Taliban, shall we?

It is about love?, if you love your own kids would you let them hang out with a same sex marrige couple? i guess not. I don't understand how people say this issue does not affect them, i'm sure if you had a neighbor that was openly gay you would definetly protect your family from seing two men kissing or groping each other. call me ignorant but it is just wrong and no they will never get their way, maybe in Canada cause you guys are so "open minded" but not in America my friends.

is it wrong that i find the idea of two men together to be wrong, yet find the idea of two women together to be really hot?

Gay women just reinforce what straight guys already know -- women are beautiful. I really can't understand why most women aren't gay. But I'm not complaining :p

Yes, I was being a bit on the silly side. My wife and I often joke around about getting a second wife and/or husband to help share the workload around the house. After all, marriage isn't about the sex, it's about hanging out with your best friend in the world. Sex and procreation is just a bonus.

Now to be really silly...unless I'm mis-reading these ten commandments dealie, which says....

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." (add appropriate high and mighty tones to this)

Now Adultery is defined this way...

a·dul·ter·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dlt-r, -tr)
n. pl. a·dul·ter·ies
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

But I don't see anything in the ten commandments dealie about having more than one lawful wife.

Oh wait, I don't believe in the bible's definition of God (but that's ok, because he believes in me!).

There I go, making light of the serious again.

As a hetereosexual man wouldn't you want more homosexual men? Considering the fact that this would increase the number of datable women?

Yes, I was being a bit on the silly side. My wife and I often joke around about getting a second wife and/or husband to help share the workload around the house. After all, marriage isn't about the sex, it's about hanging out with your best friend in the world. Sex and procreation is just a bonus.

Now to be really silly...unless I'm mis-reading these ten commandments dealie, which says....

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." (add appropriate high and mighty tones to this)

Now Adultery is defined this way...

a·dul·ter·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dlt-r, -tr)
n. pl. a·dul·ter·ies
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

But I don't see anything in the ten commandments dealie about having more than one lawful wife.

Oh wait, I don't believe in the bible's definition of God (but that's ok, because he believes in me!).

There I go, making light of the serious again.

You could always move to Utah!!! :p

Actually globi, I read something ten years or so ago about how certain mammal populations have a higher incidence of homosexuality when they reach a point where they don't need to breed to keep up their population OR was it when increases in population couldn't be supported by the environment... bah it was a long time ago. It seemed it was a built in population control method.

oh oh here it is


"Norway rats have been bred in scientific laboratories since the middle
nineteenth century. Artificial selection has elicited-partly
through unconscious choices by laboratory personnel-a strain of rats
that is calmer, tamer, less aggressive, more fertile, and with significantly
smaller brains than their wild ancestors. All this is a convenience
for those experimenting on rats.

In a now-classic experiment, the psychologist John B. Calhoun let
Norway rats reproduce in an enclosure of fixed size until the number
of occupants, and therefore the population density, was very high. He
made sure, however, to provide everyone with enough to eat. What
happened?

As the population increased, a range of unusual behavior was
noted. Nursing mothers became somehow distracted, rejecting and
abandoning their infants, who would wither away and die. Despite the
surplus of ordinary food, the bodies of the newborn would be greedily
eaten by passersby. An adult female in heat or estrus would be pursued
relentlessly, not by one, but by a pack of males. She had no hope
of escape, or even sanctuary. Obstetrical and gynecological disorders
proliferated, and many females died giving birth, or from complications
soon after. When crowded together, the rats lost their inclination
or ability to build nests for themselves and their young; their desultory
constructions were amateurish and ineffective.

Among the males Calhoun distinguished four types: the dominant,
highly aggressive ones who, although "the most normal," would occasionally
go "berserk"; the homosexuals who made sexual advances
to adults and juveniles of both sexes (but, significantly, only to non ovulating
females): their invitations were generally accepted, or at
least tolerated, but they were frequently attacked by the dominant
males; a wholly passive population that "moved through the community
like somnambulists" with nearly complete social disorientation;
and a subgroup Calhoun calls the "probers," uninvolved in the struggle
for status but hyperactive, hypersexual, bisexual, and cannibalistic.

(from Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan-Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors 1992 pages 184-185)


errr wait, that's not it, but it's from the same book.

uber you are just a silly man, plug your brain before you start typing. People like you bend and misinterprep everything they read to make up for their faults.

sharkman? Would you care to clarify? How does me making light of a subject or silly argument equate to me bending or misinterpreting everything I read to make up for my faults. By the way, what fault is it that you seem to think I have? Please enlighten me.

It is about love?, if you love your own kids would you let them hang out with a same sex marrige couple? i guess not.

Why wouldn't I, any less than I'd let them be with a straight couple that I knew and trusted?

I don't understand how people say this issue does not affect them, i'm sure if you had a neighbor that was openly gay you would definetly protect your family from seing two men kissing or groping each other.

I would expect them to behave within the same general decency as my other neighbors. I don't get upset if my hetero neighbors kiss each other in public, hold hands, etc. It doesn't upset me to see a same-sex couple doing these same things. "Groping" is another matter and again I'd behave the same way if it were a hetero or a gay couple.

What really bites my ass is that anytime people come out against the right for gays to vote we are labeled as "Haters". So what they are saying is that if you don't agree, accept or support or share their opinion on their right to marriage, you are a hater monger....so now we are not entitled to our beliefs....ya, that's open minded! :rolleyes:


I have as much a right to disagree with your position as you do mine. My moral beliefs tell that gay marriage is wrong. I believe gays have the right to any of the government benefits of marriage but not to the religious right.


Ya' know what, you're right!

I live in the Southern United States and I think Slavery is OK. I mean after all, they had slaves in the bible. Those black people have no right to demand rights.

And women, oh don't get me started on women. What gives them the right to vote! The bible says they're just suppose to shut up and do what their husbands tell them to do anyway.

It's like this, your point of view is that you don't want to look at it. Well, I don't really want to see 50 year old women get themselves a new set of fake titties and strut around in thong bikinis at the beach while their guts all wrinkly from dropping three kids, but I'm not going to ask for a law to be passed banning it. In a free society, if you aren't being offended, then you ain't free.

Jud

State your positions politely or not at all. ANY insults or bashing a mod sees in this thread will get the offender a warning.

some of you ask how it effects others....


for some ... religion is a powerful tool

There have been wars for hundreds of years regarding religions being altered, or forced changes to them.

It will most definitely affect others with strong beliefs.

These wars will never conclude. Just more hate and death as the never-ending result.

Religion is religion, cant change it. No way, for example, the Catholic church will accept gay marriage as being ok. There are so many passages in the bible and scripture that say homosexuality is an act against God, so the Catholic church cant really do anything even if they wanted to. Because then technically, they would be going against what they hold so sacred.

Religion has been around for centuries, people are stuck in their ways. This whole gay marriage thing just started, its going to take a long long time before anyone budges on that issue.



The argument is getting married in a Church that doesn't want them to get married within there walls . The gov't can do it in a court room ....

People of religious beliefs don't believe in gay marriage, and as much as we need to respect the gay marriage. They need to respect religion .

I Don't have a problem with gay marriage. Im just putting my thoughts on the table.

Uh, he said ass without using $$.

Jud

I grew up close to a farm and there were cows mounting each other and a dog that humped any leg, he could find. So what's the conclusion?

It is about love?, if you love your own kids would you let them hang out with a same sex marrige couple? i guess not. I don't understand how people say this issue does not affect them, i'm sure if you had a neighbor that was openly gay you would definetly protect your family from seing two men kissing or groping each other. call me ignorant but it is just wrong and no they will never get their way, maybe in Canada cause you guys are so "open minded" but not in America my friends.
Maybe you don't realize that same-sex couples already exist? And many of them have adopted children? The only change that the same-sex marriage reform will bring is that now same-sex couples can consider themselves legally married. They can then have the same financial and legal rights as normal married couples. This change in how they're labelled will make no difference to you personally, as you'll still see same-sex couples, they'll now just be husband and husband or wife and wife ;)

Yes, it's true in Canada we are so "open minded"...it seems like we're always about 20 years ahead of y'all down there. :p And yes, I do think they will get their way...it'll just take time. Just like abolishing slavery took time ;)

It really is interesting that in a country like this, one that demands change in so many important aspects of our culture, that two dudes or ladies living together is such a big deal. I have students in my classes that are more concerned with what rap star just came out with a new album than when their next test is. Sad :(

Well, maybe because it IS something that is largely determined at birth? These types of families exist and the children end up as good ol' heterosexuals. And last time I checked, most gay people have hetero parents... :confused:

On the other hand, this whole "what about the children" argument stinks. Its as if people are saying "Yeah, we don't really have anything against gays. We just don't want any more of 'em". Like they're trying to eradicate leprosy or something.

Marriage in our society is about love. It's not strictly about reproduction -- fertility is not a requirement. It's not about religion although you are free to have a religious ceremony. It's about love. Let's leave religious fundamentalism and intolerance to the Taliban, shall we?

if its not about fertility then why the adoptions to have children??If you want a child it has to happen between a man and woman......If you cant reproduce a child on your own in a gay relationship then it wasnt meant to be........you are talking about adopting an outside child and bringing it into a gay environment not a child that just happened to grow up to be gay, And I dont doubt that people may be born gay, i dont doubt kids may grow up to be straight with gay parents but I dislike the fact that there might be children that were going to grow up straight but may turn gay or be confused about their sexuality because of what imprints on them as youngsters because of gay parents

I have students in my classes that are more concerned with what rap star just came out with a new album than when their next test is. Sad :(
GEEEEEEEEK!!!! :D

j/k

State your positions politely or not at all. ANY insults or bashing a mod sees in this thread will get the offender a warning.

Its a big controversial subject for sure and when its in an open public forum its bound to have some friction. I can imagine it will not last the week.

globi:

It's the animal being trendy :-)


While mounting behaviors appear to be sexual in nature, this is not the case. This instinctual behavior can serve as a direct challenge to another dog’s authority or standing in the group as well as a communicatory gesture. When a dog with higher social status mounts a subordinate, the dominant dog is physically above and therefore in control of or superior to the subordinate. This position above the neck allows the superior animal access to the vulnerable jugular vein of the individual that is subordinate. Puppies exhibit this behavior as well. It is during this period of time that social foundations are formed. During play each puppy is assessing who is stronger or has more stamina and determination It may be thought that the mounting behavior is exclusive to the male dogs. This is not the case. Dominant female dogs in a pack will exhibit the same behavior normally to confirm her status to underlings in the pack thereby asserting her control. When a dog mounts a pillow or other inanimate object, the motivation is probably misdirected sexual behavior. When considering if the mounting is sexual in nature, consider whether the dog is in tact, meaning not neutered or spayed, or on heat. If there is no sexual reason, the mounting is an assertion of social rank.


From... http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2002/6/02.06.01.x.html

Similar to how prison sex between males would not neccesarily be considered homosexual in nature (surely disgusting, but hey, it's a dominance and sexual pleasure thing rather than a sexual need).

if its not about fertility then why the adoptions to have children??If you want a child it has to happen between a man and woman......If you cant reproduce a child on your own in a gay relationship then it wasnt meant to be........you are talking about adopting an outside child and bringing it into a gay environment not a child that just happened to grow up to be gay, And I dont doubt that people may be born gay, i dont doubt kids may grow up to be straight with gay parents but I dislike the fact that there might be children that were going to grow up straight but may turn gay or be confused about their sexuality because of what imprints on them as youngsters because of gay parents
Wow, that was painful to read...

I thought this debate was on whether or not gay marriage should be legal? Not whether or not gay people are born gay and can grow up straight or visa versa... :confused:

My point was that all the stuff you mention is ALREADY happening. Changing the definition of marriage will not make a difference.

Here's where that argument is flawed. Your thinking is that a gay couple would make their kids gay. From what I read about same sex parent families, there is no correlation that shows that. In fact, those people grow up with two people who have already been put down for their sexual leanings. You think they're going to teach that to their adopted kids.

Plus, if living with a gay couple makes you gay, the obvious statement is living with a straight couple makes you straight. So where do gay people come from? :confused:

Plus, if living with a gay couple makes you gay, the obvious statement is living with a straight couple makes you straight. So where do gay people come from?
lmao ..... good point Jud.

Wow, that was painful to read...

I thought this debate was on whether or not gay marriage should be legal? Not whether or not gay people are born gay and can grow up straight or visa versa... :confused:

My point was that all the stuff you mention is ALREADY happening. Changing the definition of marriage will not make a difference.

so I was offtopic??.........my bad :D

One of my best friends is a lesbian who was adopted by straight parents. She likes that one, too.

Jud

It is about love?, if you love your own kids would you let them hang out with a same sex marrige couple? i guess not. I don't understand how people say this issue does not affect them, i'm sure if you had a neighbor that was openly gay you would definetly protect your family from seing two men kissing or groping each other. call me ignorant but it is just wrong and no they will never get their way, maybe in Canada cause you guys are so "open minded" but not in America my friends.


actually a pool released yesterday stated that 65% of Canadians are against the change in the legal definition of marriage.

the first 2 replies in this thread mentioned children.........

Here's where that argument is flawed. Your thinking is that a gay couple would make their kids gay. From what I read about same sex parent families, there is no correlation that shows that. In fact, those people grow up with two people who have already been put down for their sexual leanings. You think they're going to teach that to their adopted kids.


like I said its possible to have a gay child from straight parents ........its possible for gay parents to have a staright child .........but are you trying to say that there isnt a higher chance of a straight child becoming gay because of sexual confusion??........these are all probabilities anything can happen thats all Im saying as for studies I have my doubts to many variables.

UeberJumper, The dog was also biting tires of moving cars, but didn't care about tires of parked cars eventhough they would obviously have been easier to catch.
Well still don't know about the mounting cows. Some cows did actually knock each other when they tried to show their superiority, so I wouldn't be too sure about this.

so I was offtopic??.........my bad :D
I just was saying you were offtopic by quoting me. You were arguing against something that wasn't even my real point.

the first 2 replies in this thread mentioned children.........




like I said its possible to have a gay child from straight parents ........its possible for gay parents to have a staright child .........but are you trying to say that there isnt a higher chance of a straight child becoming gay because of sexual confusion??........these are all probabilities anything can happen thats all Im saying as for studies I have my doubts to many variables.


a straight kid growing up in a gay household probably will be more accepting of non standard lifestyles and cultures, as opposed to the straight kid who grew up in a sheltered home.


there are advantages to the straight kid having gay parents, think about it, when he goes out on a date his 'dads' will prolly pull a queer eye for the straight guy type thing for him. :p

monkey see monkey do i dont think really applies, its a case by case thing.

Ya' know what, you're right!

I live in the Southern United States and I think Slavery is OK. I mean after all, they had slaves in the bible. Those black people have no right to demand rights.

And women, oh don't get me started on women. What gives them the right to vote! The bible says they're just suppose to shut up and do what their husbands tell them to do anyway.

It's like this, your point of view is that you don't want to look at it. Well, I don't really want to see 50 year old women get themselves a new set of fake titties and strut around in thong bikinis at the beach while their guts all wrinkly from dropping three kids, but I'm not going to ask for a law to be passed banning it. In a free society, if you aren't being offended, then you ain't free.

Jud

You are obviously an idiot if you think that all these issues are related. Nice, distort my statements with bigotry and discrimination to suit your cause. Gay MARRIAGE is an issue of morality and religion. Gay rights are a political agenda.

I'm all for gays having the legal right to their same benefits as straight couples. I am not in favor of gays having the right to re-define a religious institution. There is a distinction. I would say that you would be the one disriminating because you say I'm wrong to hold to my moral beliefs.


Same old crap from the gay rights moment...either you agree, accept and welcome our lifestyle or your a bigot or Hate gays.....its a load of crap!

I just was saying you were offtopic by quoting me. You were arguing against something that wasn't even my real point.

I quoted nubos response about the weak argument on the childrens factor which I feel isnt weak........sorry if I made you jealous by responding to someone else,the first 2 comments in this thread are in regards to children, and thats what Ive been talking about........I really dont care if gays get married or not :p :D

.........but are you trying to say that there isnt a higher chance of a straight child becoming gay because of sexual confusion

If there is one thing I know, it's that I like P....HMM, HMM, the ladies. I didn't need anyone to tell me that. I arrived at my first day of middle school. There she was, L. K., a hot little brunette. She had on a pair of guess jeans, a white top...what was I talking about?

Sexual confusion comes in when a person is not allowed to ask those questions and travels down the path that's forced on them. That's why Gay people call it, "Coming out of the closet."

Jud

I quoted nubos response about the weak argument on the childrens factor which I feel isnt weak........sorry if I made you jealous by responding to someone else,the first 2 comments in this thread are in regards to children, and thats what Ive been talking about........I really dont care if gays get married or not :p :D
I stand corrected. Working soooo hard here at work that I thought you had quoted me :o

well all I can say was this is a good thread and everybody has their opinions........no one will change mine, but I hope I changed someone elses :p

In all reality all I really care about is how Im getting my downpayment together for my rx-8 :D

Is that offtopic on the rx-8 forum in a thread about gay marriage?? you decide :p

You are obviously an idiot if you think that all these issues are related. Nice, distort my statements with bigotry and discrimination to suit your cause. Gay MARRIAGE is an issue of morality and religion. Gay rights are a political agenda.

I'm all for gays having the legal right to their same benefits as straight couples. I am not in favor of gays having the right to re-define a religious institution. There is a distinction. I would say that you would be the one disriminating because you say I'm wrong to hold to my moral beliefs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this current bill being brought to House of Commons in Canada is redifining the Civil Marriage Act. This has nothing to do with religion. I don't know where you're getting religion from?? I'm an atheist...does that mean I have to convert to a religion before I get married?

The homosexual agenda is pushed by activists who are totally committed to the cause of making homosexuality a sanctioned and recognized form of sexual activity --- and the basis for legimate marriages and family relationships.

The bond between man and woman is marriage, which is not an historical accident or the result of socialization and cultural evolution.

All forms of homosexual eroticism and sexual behavior are inherently unnatural. Women involved in lesbianism and men who have given up on natural intercourse with women to a consumed passion for men commit this with out shame. As a result they have received within their own bodies the penalty of their error with possibly disease.

Plus, if living with a gay couple makes you gay, the obvious statement is living with a straight couple makes you straight. So where do gay people come from? :confused:Anal sex? :)

Tanyninh you sound like you're reading scripture... ;)

Just to pick apart one of your statements:
As a result they have received within their own bodies the penalty of their error with possibly disease.
You're saying that disease is not possible for heterosexual people?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this current bill being brought to House of Commons in Canada is redifining the Civil Marriage Act. This has nothing to do with religion. I don't know where you're getting religion from?? I'm an atheist...does that mean I have to convert to a religion before I get married?


The problem is there is nothing in the legislation to protect an preist or minister if they refuse to marry a gay couple. Paul Martin keeps saying that they will be protected in this way but there is nothing there. So, with the version of legislation that is being pushed through., if a preist declines to marry a gay couple, they would be able to take him to court to force this to happen....you know that there would someonwe out there that would do it too.

You are obviously an idiot if you think that all these issues are related. Nice, distort my statements with bigotry and discrimination to suit your cause. Gay MARRIAGE is an issue of morality and religion. Gay rights are a political agenda.

Actually, you don't know you're American History (OH, that's right, Canada.) :rolleyes:

In the United States, Slaves were not seen as people. It was even believed that slaves had no soul and there for did not need to worry about heaven. Babies born to Slaves were often called "suckers". This was not a positive term as its meaning was close to parasite. Ofcourse, each slave owner had their own beliefs on these matters, but these ideas were taught by churches in the South during slavery. Slight modifications were made after the end of slavery, but the message in the white churches of the South was Blacks are not equal to Whites. That is a message that is still present in some White Southern Churches today. They even had a bible verse that went along with it in one of my churches I used to attend. Something about seperating the sheep from the goats. That, my friend, is Bigotry and Discrimination. Sorry to use some back at ya', but hey, it's just an internet chat room. :)

Tanyninh you sound like you're reading scripture... ;)

Just to pick apart one of your statements:
You're saying that disease is not possible for heterosexual people?


no, I don't think she is saying that catching a sexual disease is only for homosexuals. I think she is saying that your risk is higher.

Hey, Doc. I thought I'd ask the wife to give it a try. You know, for science. But she'd never go for it. ;)

Jud

The bond between man and woman is marriage, which is not an historical accident or the result of socialization and cultural evolution.


Now you've gone and done it, you've implied that marriage is something natural rather than something that society has implemented over time.

The problem is there is nothing in the legislation to protect an preist or minister if they refuse to marry a gay couple. Paul Martin keeps saying that they will be protected in this way but there is nothing there. So, with the version of legislation that is being pushed through., if a preist declines to marry a gay couple, they would be able to take him to court to force this to happen....you know that there would someonwe out there that would do it too.
Ahhh...I had heard about that but for some reason thought it was no longer an issue. I agree, the church shouldn't be forced to perform gay marriages.

Here is a letter by a catholic priest point out his view about gay marriage....parts I agree with..parts I don't.


http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jan/050113a.html

As a result they have received within their own bodies the penalty of their error with possibly disease.
Huh? Are you trying to say that if you are gay or lesbian that you are more likely to get sick? Like a STD such as HIV/AIDS, or do you mean the flu? :rolleyes:

Either way that statement has next to no scientific or statistical basis. If I'm wrong, please correct me with facts.

the thing about drugs is it harms someone. Thats why i pointed it out. This, on the other hand, doesn't.Do most drugs harm people more than decade long sentences or felony records? Just curious. I've been dumbfounded by all the controversy dealing with drugs. I am a medical marijuana patient and only used marijuana very infrequently prior to my doctor's recommendation (around once or twice a year recreationally). On the other hand if you are growing legally with a recommendation from your doctor and using it only for legitimate purposes you are still taking a huge risk from the feds. They can arrest you, destroy your plants and keep you from using medical use as a defense. This is the reason why I'm not interested in growing for myself and why I buy my medicine on the black market. :mad:

woah 93rdcurrent....did you post that in the wrong thread? Who cares about your drug addiction! ;)

woah 93rdcurrent....did you post that in the wrong thread? Who cares about your drug addiction! ;)Just posting about another's comment. :p

The whole point was for people to express how this hurts them or the people who want it. The answer seems to be a resounding, "it doesn't."

93rdcurrent, I could care less with what you take, again it's not my decision to make. I was simply stating what arguements are made against the legalization of drugs, not that i'm aginst or for it. Drugs are a commonly debated issue because some say harm is being done to the individual. In your case it sounds like it's helping you live! Abortion can kill an innocent child. Slavery...er wait we fixed that wrong doing. Some things that were once belived can and will change, why is this seen as a "moral decline?" Being gay to a gay person isn't seen as moraly wrong, they are just doing what feels right to them. If you had a child who was gay, would you no onger embrace him as your own because he contributed to the moral decline despite your good upbringing? This in no way hurts or harms anyone until the said couple acts in a way that is not legal or whatnot. Personal feelings aside, tell me why you should hold control of how others live thier life in a free society, doing no harm to anyone, not even themselves.

The real problem is a fear of change. All change is bad, especialy with civil rights. And you know what? Thats ok if thats how you feel. A lot of people take comfort in religion because it is never changing, and always can be used for guidance. A lot of us, however, change our minds often and can no longer look to religion to help guide us through the problems of 2005.

This is another thing that I can't figure out. Why are so many people concerned with the actions of others instead of putting the focus on themselves. I think I may have come to this conclusion:

People are generally living in fear of their own death, yet denying themselves that they will die.

Why do I say this? Well, let's examine this topic. Why are people concerned with the marraige of two gay men or women. Why are people throwing the phrases morality and religion around. Is is because they are actually concerned with these people? Are they really concerned with wether or not someone they have never met is going to hell? I don't think so.

I think it's really because everyone knows they are going to die, but there's one question that almost everyone is afraid to ask. Whay if the other guy is right? What if the Muslims are going to heaven and not the Christians? What if you die, and there's nothing else? What if reincarnation is real, and I might have to do this all over again? In a nutshell, what if I'm wrong about the afterlife? Ofcourse this question is different for everyone, but the meaning is the same. And I think that people get so scared of their own mortality that they have to take out their fears on the ones that aren't like them. It's a way of boosting your self-esteem.

I realize that someone is going to put the old, "how dare you say that!" statement up. Just be warned that is a sure sign of defensive behavior that would only go to prove my point.

Jud

A lot of people take comfort in religion because it is never changing, and always can be used for guidance. A lot of us, however, change our minds often and can no longer look to religion to help guide us through the problems of 2005.

Don't even get me started with the changes in religions over the years.

Jud

The whole point was for people to express how this hurts them or the people who want it. The answer seems to be a resounding, "it doesn't."

But! Religion or personal feelings say it's wrong. Drugs are a commonly debated issue because harm is being done to the individual. Abortion can kill an innocent child. Slavery...er wait we fixed that wrong doing. Some things that were once belived can and will change, why is this seen as a "moral decline?" Being gay to a gay person isn't seen as moraly wrong, they are just doing what feels right to them. If you had a child who was gay, would you no onger embrace him as your own because he contributed to the moral decline despite your good upbringing? This in no way hurts or harms anyone until the said couple acts in a way that is not legal or whatnot. Personal feelings aside, tell me why you should hold control of how others live thier life in a free society, doing no harm to anyone, not even themselves.

The real problem is a fear of change. All change is bad, especialy with civil rights. And you know what? Thats ok if thats how you feel. A lot of people take comfort in religion because it is never changing, and always can be used for guidance. A lot of us, however, change our minds often and can no longer look to religion to help guide us through the problems of 2005.I saw your point originally but I question the amount of harm the drugs do versus the amount of harm that the current laws do. I certainly agree as many would note from my previous posts that gay marriage is an issue that should be decided by individual religious institutions. It's a matter of the congregations view. The government should stay completely out of the marriage issue all together. I don't see any reason that the feds or even state legislature really has any right to decide the fate of people in love. If they attend a church that will marry them then they are welcome to the marriage. Straight people don't have a right to covet marriage.

Jud, well maybe people are just bored or don't really deal with real problems anymore. That's why there's all that brouhaha around that topic.

93rdcurrent, i edited my post to reflect my thoughts better, since they don't seem to be getting across. Your actions are your own, and in your case, drugs seem to help you live a better life.

This is another thing that I can't figure out. Why are so many people concerned with the actions of others instead of putting the focus on themselves. I think I may have come to this conclusion:

People are generally living in fear of their own death, yet denying themselves that they will die.

Why do I say this? Well, let's examine this topic. Why are people concerned with the marraige of two gay men or women. Why are people throwing the phrases morality and religion around. Is is because they are actually concerned with these people? Are they really concerned with wether or not someone they have never met is going to hell? I don't think so.

I think it's really because everyone knows they are going to die, but there's one question that almost everyone is afraid to ask. Whay if the other guy is right? What if the Muslims are going to heaven and not the Christians? What if you die, and there's nothing else? What if reincarnation is real, and I might have to do this all over again? In a nutshell, what if I'm wrong about the afterlife? Ofcourse this question is different for everyone, but the meaning is the same. And I think that people get so scared of their own mortality that they have to take out their fears on the ones that aren't like them. It's a way of boosting your self-esteem.

I realize that someone is going to put the old, "how dare you say that!" statement up. Just be warned that is a sure sign of defensive behavior that would only go to prove my point.

Jud


People need to be concerned with what others do:

an extreme example of this is what Hilter did with the Jews. Too many people ignored it at first until it came to their back yard. Now, before you flame me, I'm not saying this is the same thing just that the logic of not ignoring what is going around you is valid.


I love your last statement, basicly if I disagree with you , then you're right, I'm wrong....


Priceless!

The whole "if it doesn't hurt you or them, it must be OK" argument is a load of crap.

Public nudity doesn't hurt anyone either, except society, and it is not getting the rubber stamp of approval either. Not in our lifetime.

Hitler killed people, to compair his thoughts on gay marrage with that of what hitler did is kind of insulting to him, don't you think? I understand its extreme but why use it?

I'm sure there is some of that involved, but that doesn't explain how a farmer in the Midwest, a banker in the Northeast and an actor in the West could have such a visceral tie to this topic and others, like abortion, prayer in schools, teaching the ten commandments in schools, stuff like that. What you're talking about results in laws like:

-In Key West, it's illegal to molest Key Deer. (figure that one out)

-In several Southern states, it's illegal to carry an ice cream cone in your pocket.

-In Tennessee, it's illegal to shoot any animal from a moving vehicle, whale are exempt.

Those are a few of my favorites.

Jud

Actually Hitler didn't do the dirty work.

Btw Im using a MAC for the first time and the words are going off the screen, so i now hate Mac's :p

The whole "if it doesn't hurt you or them, it must be OK" argument is a load of crap.

Public nudity doesn't hurt anyone either, except society, and it is not getting the rubber stamp either. Not in our lifetime.Public nudity isn't a problem in a lot of European countries... I don't see the moral fiber breaking free in say, Germany.

Just for the sake of argument, instead of me defending my beliefs how about the other way........why is it so threatening to you that I don't believe in the gay lifestyle? Why do you hate Heterosexuals so much?



See how stupid it sounds coming from either side of the argument. Everybody has the right to stand up for what they believe in....and to then to blanket label it as discrimination or hatred says that the only opinion that matters is your own.

It's too cold to run around nude anyway.

Here is a letter by a catholic priest point out his view about gay marriage....parts I agree with..parts I don't.


http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jan/050113a.html

I was going to read the link you posted but then I saw it was by a priest...........cant really rely on priests these days either since all the molestation and stealing thats been going on /hushed up and quickly forgotten in the past 2 years

Actually Hitler didn't do the dirty work.


Semantics.....he did order the dirty work and counties ignored it until it reached their borders.

I was going to read the link you posted but then I saw it was by a priest...........cant really rely on priests these days either since all the molestation and stealing thats been going on /hushed up and quickly forgotten in the past 2 years



so now all priests are molesters and thieves......nice reasoning. Glad to see that you are so level headed.
:rolleyes:

This is about the Hitler thing. Sorry it's out of order.

Well I see your logic, but what your argument leaves out is the part of why the Jews were killed in the first place.

In Germany, before WWII, inflation was out of control. One day a loaf of bread cost a couple of deutch marks, the next it was 400. The Jewish community has always been a source of blame for others problems in Europe. So, in effect, your example fits my argument. If the German government at the time had paid more attention to its own needs, Hitler would not have become popular among the German people. And the Jews, gypsies, russians, poles and all the other people that suffered under German occupation would have had an easier time paying attention to their own needs.

Jud

Public nudity isn't a problem in a lot of European countries... I don't see the moral fiber breaking free in say, Germany.
That is another stinky load.

Ever been to Germany? I have, for 6 weeks. Never saw a nude person there, though. Maybe they allow it at the lake or something. Other "enlightened" countries don't let you walk down the street completely nude, either, at least none that I'm familiar with. Why not? It wouldn't hurt anybody, would it?

No, it's bad for society, though, and that is good enough. We don't want to see (or have our children see) nudity at the mall. And we don't want to encourage gays to flaunt their alternative lifestyle on us either by certifying their "unions."

Sorry, but them's the breaks. State by state, laws are being passed to protect the sanctity of marriage. And the Constitutional Amendment protecting marriage is likely going to be revisited.

Rotten, As you know from my previous posts I am not a big fan of the government meddling in every aspect of our daily and personal lives. Why is it so important for the government to have a say on the gay marriage issue? Why can heterosexuals marry but homosexuals can't? Don't tell me the Canadian winter is getting to your sensibilities?

Ha! Hitler Mentioned, Goodwins Law In Effect, Thread Over!

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GodwinsLaw

THREAD OVER PEOPLE, THREAD OVER.

To be for gay rights doesn't make you gay yourself or a hetero hater.

As I said in the first post, I am not gay, and neither are most of the 45 odd some percent who voted against the ban on gay marrage in Oregon. If it matters to you so much, I have been in a relationship (with a woman) for over three years and plan to marry her as soon as I can afford to get her what she wants. She's very expensive. I'm not black either, but I prob would have defended blacks rights 50 years ago. :p I guess I take a proactive approach to things rather than sitting back and assuming that if it isn't what I like then its wrong.

Rotten, As you know from my previous posts I am not a big fan of the government meddling in every aspect of our daily and personal lives. Why is it so important for the government to have a say on the gay marriage issue? Why can heterosexuals marry but homosexuals can't? Don't tell me the Canadian winter is getting to your sensibilities?


That's just the point...I don't want them to mess with the definition of marriage. Let gay couples have all the legal rights as straight couples....just don't mix the religion with government...maybe I'm having a problem communicating my point.

so now all priests are molesters and thieves......nice reasoning. Glad to see that you are so level headed.
:rolleyes:

I didnt say that .........but its hard to trust people that cant be trusted.........take it the way you want, its my opinion.........people always have other motives.....Im not taking any side here on any issue, Im only on my side.........but people loose faith when not even the servants of god cant follow their own commandments :rolleyes:

To be for gay rights doesn't make you gay yourself or a hetero hater.

As I said in the first post, I am not gay, and neither are most of the 45 odd some percent who voted against the ban on gay marrage in Oregon. If it matters to you so much, I have been in a relationship (with a woman) for over three years and plan to marry her as soon as I can afford to get her what she wants. She's very expensive. I'm not black either, but I prob would have defended blacks rights 50 years ago. :p I guess I take a proactive approach to things rather than sitting back and assuming that if it isn't what I like then its wrong.



Not sure if that is diected at me but I'm not trying to dorect this at any one person here....and it doesn't matter to me what your relationship status is. I don't see the black issue as being the same as this.

Ever been to Germany? I have, for 6 weeks. Never saw a nude person there, though. Maybe they allow it at the lake or something. Other "enlightened" countries don't let you walk down the street completely nude, either, at least none that I'm familiar with. Why not? It wouldn't hurt anybody, would it?
They're all hiding in the Sauna

Never Ending Thread ... Pointless

That is another stinky load.

Ever been to Germany? I have, for 6 weeks. Never saw a nude person there, though. Maybe they allow it at the lake or something. Other "enlightened" countries don't let you walk down the street completely nude, either, at least none that I'm familiar with. Why not? It wouldn't hurt anybody, would it?

No, it's bad for society, though, and that is good enough. We don't want to see (or have our children see) nudity at the mall. And we don't want to encourage gays to flaunt their alternative lifestyle on us either by certifying their "unions."

Sorry, but them's the breaks. State by state, laws are being passed to protect the sanctity of marriage. And the Constitutional Amendment protecting marriage is likely going to be revisited.Ever watch commercials while you were in Germany? I guess I'm going off of the German trourists in Denmark and other countries where going topless at a beach is no big deal. Here in the states we are very puritanical when it comes to issues such as homosexuality and nudity. Elsewhere it isn't such a big deal. I don't see the Swiss debating on the gay marriage issue.

When it comes to states rights and states issues I don't see all the states following your estimation. Seems the gay can still marry in Hawaii for one.

BTW cigarette companies used to have need women parading around the streets in San Francisco to advertise their products during the 20s. There were many other instances of nudity in our country throughout its' history. I could probably create an argument easier about the dangers of hiding nudity from children rather than the other way around. Of course we are talking about nudity and not sex... it's important to get that straight. I also want to make the point that I am not a nudist either, I am just able to see past the sham morals of the point you are trying to make. What is unatural about nudity?

I didnt say that .........but its hard to trust people that cant be trusted.........take it the way you want, its my opinion.........people always have other motives.....Im not taking any side here on any issue, Im only on my side.........but people loose faith when not even the servants of god can follow their own commandments :rolleyes:


I think you were saying that by that fact that you refused to read it. At that point you aren't even interested in someone else's opinion.....what if the letter was from a Muslim?

That's just the point...I don't want them to mess with the definition of marriage. Let gay couples have all the legal rights as straight couples....just don't mix the religion with government...maybe I'm having a problem communicating my point.Now that you've said this it is much more clear. :)

rotten42, OOOOOOOOOOh, I don't mind that so much. Well, that's enough for me campers.

Jud

Never Ending Thread ... Pointless


I disagree, discussion is never pointless........understanding and middle ground come from that. Stereotypes and discrimination come when there is no dialog.

That's just the point...I don't want them to mess with the definition of marriage. Let gay couples have all the legal rights as straight couples....just don't mix the religion with government...maybe I'm having a problem communicating my point.
Would you be happy if gay marriage was legal and the churches didn't have to perform it, but could if they wanted to?

As far as I know there's something like a civil union in Switzerland but not really a gay marriage. But indeed it wasn't really a big deal when that passed 2 years ago.

khtm:

SHHHH that's what the Canadian law will have in it, don't spoil it for him!

khtm:

SHHHH that's what the Canadian law will have in it, don't spoil it for him!Oh crap! Now Speed ER Doc is going to bust out with the Blame Canada song.

Would you be happy if gay marriage was legal and the churches didn't have to perform it, but could if they wanted to?



fine..just don't call it marriage. Call me what you want but I consider that a term for a man/woman union.


I still wouldn't agree with it.....I don't agree with putting ketchup on eggs either.

As I said before I tolerate the lifestyle but don't accept it.

if its not about fertility then why the adoptions to have children??If you want a child it has to happen between a man and woman......If you cant reproduce a child on your own in a gay relationship then it wasnt meant to be....

I was referring to the common argument that Marriage is defined as between a man and a woman in order to perpetuate the species. But, we don't prohibit infertile couples from marrying, nor post-menopausal women, nor is fitness as adoptive parents a criterion. We let many folks marry who can never have children so to use that as an argument against gay marriage is specious.

....you are talking about adopting an outside child and bringing it into a gay environment not a child that just happened to grow up to be gay, And I dont doubt that people may be born gay, i dont doubt kids may grow up to be straight with gay parents but I dislike the fact that there might be children that were going to grow up straight but may turn gay or be confused about their sexuality because of what imprints on them as youngsters because of gay parents

What about the children that were going to end up gay and do so in a same-sex household in which love and understanding prevail rather than one that attempts to instill them with shame and self-hatred?

khtm:

SHHHH that's what the Canadian law will have in it, don't spoil it for him!


Don't be a putz!..I'm up on the issue more than most in Canada and have read a draft of the legislation. I'm not calling you stupid for having your opinion so don't do it to me! :mad:

Ever watch commercials while you were in Germany? I guess I'm going off of the German trourists in Denmark and other countries where going topless at a beach is no big deal. Here in the states we are very puritanical when it comes to issues such as homosexuality and nudity. Elsewhere it isn't such a big deal. I don't see the Swiss debating on the gay marriage issue.

When it comes to states rights and states issues I don't see all the states following your estimation. Seems the gay can still marry in Hawaii for one.
Commercials are one thing. You can turn off the TV. Nude beaches are another thing. You can avoid them, sort of like you are avoiding my argument.

Public nudity, ie at the mall, is forbidden by societies all over the world. It would "hurt" nobody, but society deems it immoral. Same thing in our country, and many others, with gay "marriages." We don't want it.

And Hawaii doesn't officially recognize them either, wrong again.

I don't think you're stupid, rotten. I also think ketchup on eggs is ewwwwwww.

Commercials are one thing. You can turn off the TV. Nude beaches are another thing. You can avoid them, sort of like you are avoiding my argument.

Public nudity, ie at the mall, is forbidden by societies all over the world. It would "hurt" nobody, but society deems it immoral. Same thing in our country, and many others, with gay "marriages." We don't want it.

And Hawaii doesn't officially recognize them either, wrong again.Well let me throw in Massachusetts then. ;)

I don't think you're stupid, rotten. I also think ketchup on eggs is ewwwwwww.


I know, that was directed at Uperjumper.

I know, that was directed at Uperjumper.
I know, too :) Just trying to make you feel better :D

I was referring to the common argument that Marriage is defined as between a man and a woman in order to perpetuate the species.
Assuming the sun is gonna explode anyway, what's the point of perpetuate any species?

I know, too :) Just trying to make you feel better :D


bring me a case of beer and I will feel better... :D

bump ;) :D

Assuming the sun is gonna explode anyway, what's the point of perpetuate any species?


are you asking what the meaning of life is? That's a whole different thread.

rotten:

Woah, where did I say you were stupid? I did nothing of the sort, nor do I think that.

ps. post 151, I agree completely.

Actually, I just got back from lunch where I happened upon an article in a local paper in which Ujal Dosanj (Minister for Health) wrote a letter to the editor in which there was a line exactly like which khtm just posted.

[edit] and by "just posted" I mean post 152.

rotten:

Woah, where did I say you were stupid? I did nothing of the sort, nor do I think that.

ps. post 151, I agree completely.

Actually, I just got back from lunch where I happened upon an article in a local paper in which Ujal Dosanj (Minister for Health) wrote a letter to the editor in which there was a line exactly like which khtm just posted.

[edit] and by "just posted" I mean post 152.


sorry, I misunderstood your message.

bring me a case of beer and I will feel better... :D
I could definitely use some beer now too. It's been 2 days! :D I think a happy hour may be in order.

...
This is the quick and easy answer for me without mentioning ... or ..., it's a matter of morality in our country. Moral decay tends to bring along with it social decay, which then ends in the decline of the nation as a whole.

That's how we that appose (and that was the quick and non detailed answer without mentioning that it's based on our faith (Christians)) base it on. Anyone that really wants to debate...it would be best in a PM to someone that disagree with your position, so the thread does not get closed.
1 - I don't see that a society that STOPS lying to itself about homosexuality is an example of moral decay. I see it more as a society that's growing up and accepting the world for what it IS, rather than griping about what we WANT it to be.

2 - Go easy on the Christian schtick. Quite a lot of Christians have no objection to homosexuality. The religious right's party line is not the only game in town.

I could definitely use some beer now too. It's been 2 days! :D I think a happy hour may be in order.



What part of town do you work in...we should go to Joey's for lunch at Chinook one day...I'm buying.

What part of town do you work in...we should go to Joey's for lunch at Chinook one day...I'm buying.
Downtown :( And I bus to work! :(

Downtown :( And I bus to work! :(


I'll let you know one day when I'm downtown.

sweet...my schedule's pretty flexible too so I can go for lunch whenever...you buy the lunch, I'll buy the beer! :D

everyone else is probably reading this and thinking "who the fvck cares you guys!" ;)

sweet...my schedule's pretty flexible too so I can go for lunch whenever...you buy the lunch, I'll buy the beer! :D

everyone else is probably reading this and thinking "who the fvck cares you guys!" ;)



so what! :D after spending an afternnon debating gay marriage, I feel the need to discuss beer. :)

No more thread highjacking
you now my return to your battle stations :D

sweet...my schedule's pretty flexible too so I can go for lunch whenever...you buy the lunch, I'll buy the beer! :D

everyone else is probably reading this and thinking "who the fvck cares you guys!" ;)Nahhh. We just think it's great that it happened in the gay marriage thread. :D :D

Nahhh. We just think it's great that it happened in the gay marriage thread. :D :D




ROTFL :D :D

I knew that it wouldn't take long for a comment like that.....You've renewd my faith in this forum :D

Nahhh. We just think it's great that it happened in the gay marriage thread. :D :D
Yeah I was waiting for someone to bring that up! :rolleyes:

Yeah I was waiting for someone to bring that up! :rolleyes:The meaning of life... humor!

Nahhh. We just think it's great that it happened in the gay marriage thread. :D :DNow THAT was funny.

Have fun, boys. ;)

2 - Go easy on the Christian schtick. Quite a lot of Christians have no objection to homosexuality. The religious right's party line is not the only game in town.


That's true. There is a liberal element out there that throws the bible away or just says its outdated and blah blah blah. There's where mass confusion starts. Anyhow that's another thread issue. I don't agree there is a lot of them however but I agree there are certain denominations that have gone liberal and so one wonders what they are anymore.

That's true. There is a liberal element out there that throws the bible away or just says its outdated and blah blah blah. There's where mass confusion starts. Anyhow that's another thread issue. I don't agree there is a lot of them however but I agree there are certain denominations that have gone liberal and so one wonders what they are anymore.
FYI, nobody is the final word on what it is to be a Christian. Trying to demonize other Christians with things like "throws the bible away or just says its outdated" or "one wonders what they are anymore" is a little myopic.

FYI, nobody is the final word on what it is to be a Christian. Trying to demonize other Christians with things like "throws the bible away or just says its outdated" or "one wonders what they are anymore" is a little myopic.


I know about the liberal elements and that's all I am going to say. No I know where the final word comes from too but this gets into religion which is banned from here and invites Elara to stop the whole thread so. Peace!

I think Slavery is OK. I mean after all, they had slaves in the bible.

What logic are you using? Not a good one…to say the least…

There are also stories of murderers, rapeist, etc...so doest that make it OK? Also, as a historical lesson...slaves throughout history have been treated IN VERYING ways....read up

Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians (GOD SET THEM FREE)
Joseph was a slave but GOD set him free(GOD made him the 2nd greatist in Egypt "while being a hebrew")
etc etc....

The bible says they're just suppose to shut up and do what their husbands tell them to do anyway.

No, it tells men to “love their wife”…how do you show love by telling her to shut up and do as she is told? Again…it seems you don’t understand the Bible…

OK, regarding being born gay...I don't agree with that. We are all born with different weaknesses (lust, vengeful, thief, greed, arrogance, homosexuality, etc) we are born with these weaknesses because of our fallen condition. While I might be strong in regards to the perceived “need” of drugs someone else might be weak in regards to drugs. While I might be weak when faced with giving in to lust, others are strong and have no problem with it.

That goes for everything…as we have different characters; we also have different weaknesses so while someone might be born weak with lust (homosexuality) that does not mean it is a condition that is uncorrectable or a weakness that can not be overcome. We are born into sin…into error, but are called to reject our nature and become a true child of GOD.

Example, if it was up to most guys we would jump from one girl to the next….no harm right? If I explain that “hey, we are just going to enjoy our bodies together OK…don’t get hurt OK…”

But, then the unavoidable consequences come into play.

(or for the binary brains out there who like PHD’s and big names something similar to Newton’s third law: )

“For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction” (note: not sure the equal in this statement applies but just as another way to explain)

I want A (have sex as much as I can…harmless right) but B has to happen, what is B?

Diseases
Pregnancy
Emotional attachment, broken hearts, emotional distress, etc etc
Emptiness

(Remember, per Seinfeld…there is no “sexual” plan that works)

So, that is one example as to WHY GOD tells us things. It’s not to rob us of something but to keep us from the unavoidable consequences. Actions have reactions and many people don’t want to face them or try to rationalize them, but the fact remains that there is a consequence or reaction.

Homosexuality has a reaction…and per our faith, it’s not a good one. Unlike our enemy Satan…GOD explains (while he should not have to) that there are consequences while our enemy simple talks about the action and how good it is for the “MOMENT” or temporary enjoyment.

1 - I don't see that a society that STOPS lying to itself about homosexuality is an example of moral decay. I see it more as a society that's growing up and accepting the world for what it IS, rather than griping about what we WANT it to be.

So per that (sort of logic) we then should just give up and allow the world to fall into what ever it might, so why did we fight Hitler? Why did we fight a civil war/slavery? Why fight for good? Just grow up world…and accept what it is…logic, THAT AINT!

2 - Go easy on the Christian schtick. Quite a lot of Christians have no objection to homosexuality. The religious right's party line is not the only game in town.

What was that? (schtick) What were you trying to say?

Look, people that call themselves “Christian” but follow nothing that GOD/JESUS said…ARE FALSE! Oh nooo, did I say that…will I get flamed…will this thread get closed…SO BE IT, I’m tired of getting grouped to people that are “Christian” by name only…

If you want to prove I’m wrong, I welcome it because I will always (GOD WILLING) be growing in this life so I will listen to what you have to say, but TRY USING THE BIBLE TO JUSTIFY HOMOSEXUALITY….come on….stop playing….and teach me from the word…cause everything else is just human logic. :eek:

What worries me is the tendency of straight marriages to produce gay children. Virtually all of the gay people I know (and I assume almost all other gay people) are the result of procreation by straight couples. If we're going to stop this movement toward gay marriage, we should get at the source....straight marriage. End it and we'll take a major step toward eliminating gay people.

CELIBACY FOR EVERYONE!!!!

There might be something wrong with my reasoning, but I can't tell what it is. :)

Amen.....

This thread again risks closure. On a mostly non-religious note, I would just put in my two cents on this topic:

Growing up, I did not really perceive the existence of gay people in my schools or other places I visited. It wasn't until I started college that I really got to know anyone who was openly gay, and it really opened my eyes to realize that the gay men and women I met were among the brightest, nicest, funniest and most loving people I have ever known. I'm not sure why that is.

Also, in general, I think gay people are more tolerant than some straights (perhaps for obvious reasons), and they have some wonderful insights on life and people. I know some gay couples with children, and their children all seem fine and well-adjusted to me. Nor do I have any reason to think they will turn out to be gay themselves. In fact, I believe that some studies show that children of gay couples are not more likely to grow up gay, but if they did, I say so what?

I don't think anyone is sexually "normal," really. I mean, everyone has a few quirks, and some unlucky people just happen to have sexual attractions that the mainstream condemns. If the objects of the attraction of adults, gay or straight, happen to be children, than society needs to intervene to protect the children. But if adults are attracted to adults of the same sex, then again, I say, so what? I don't appreciate someone commenting on my sexual preferences or orientation, and I'm not going to comment on his or hers. It may not be my thing, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

So now we get to gay marriage, and the related issue of gays in the military. By some estimates, at least one in ten people is gay. (Although it appears to be more of a continuum than a binary condition.) In America, that's a huge number of people being excluded from a very basic right. (And those who say it's not a constitutional right are correct that it's not stated in the Bill of Rights, but the Supreme Court certainly would treat discrimination against straights in marriage as a 14th Amendment issue of substantive due process, I believe.)

I see no legal or moral reason to arbitrarily exclude gays from the benefits of the civil union called marriage. If a church doesn't want to wed gays, then that's up to the church. But the state itself, in my view, has no rational basis upon which to discriminate, and there are many good reasons to encourage gay marriage, in terms of creating more stable relationships, better means for people to provide and care for one another, better estate and insurance and tax benefits; generally, you're giving maybe 10% of the population a potentially better and more fulfilling life.

What worries me is the tendency of straight marriages to produce gay children. Virtually all of the gay people I know (and I assume almost all other gay people) are the result of procreation by straight couples. If we're going to stop this movement toward gay marriage, we should get at the source....straight marriage. End it and we'll take a major step toward eliminating gay people.

CELIBACY FOR EVERYONE!!!!

There might be something wrong with my reasoning, but I can't tell what it is. :)
You can't stop mutations. And you can't stop people from wanting to be eccentric.

And there isn't a movement toward gay marriage, there's a movement against it.

And nobody wants to eliminate gay people.

Get it? :)

We are all born with different weaknesses (lust, vengeful, thief, greed, arrogance, homosexuality, etc)

while someone might be born weak with lust (homosexuality) that does not mean it is a condition that is uncorrectable or a weakness that can not be overcome.

I always love this kind of "logic." Based on your argument, we're all attracted to the same sex, but some of us are better at repressing the urge than others. That's just simply false. I could look at gay porn all day long and it wouldn't get me horny. It just doesn't do anything for me. How about you?

MRIs have shown that gay people have significant anatomical differences in their brains. In my deeply-held opinion, and tons of recent research backs this up, being gay is a congenital attribute. It is not a vice or a weakness or a lust that we must all resist.

You can't stop mutations. And you can't stop people from wanting to be eccentric.

And there isn't a movement toward gay marriage, there's a movement against it.

And nobody wants to eliminate gay people.

Get it? :) Thanks, Doc. I knew I could count on you to set me straight. :)

You can't stop mutations. And you can't stop people from wanting to be eccentric.

And there isn't a movement toward gay marriage, there's a movement against it.

And nobody wants to eliminate gay people.

Get it? :)

I'm starting to think you wear a white hood not a white lab coat

You can't stop mutations. And you can't stop people from wanting to be eccentric.

And there isn't a movement toward gay marriage, there's a movement against it.

And nobody wants to eliminate gay people.

Get it? :)


not in Canada

I'm starting to think you wear a white hood not a white lab coat
And I'm continuing to not give a sh*t what you think, powder puff.

And I'm continuing to not give a sh*t what you think, powder puff.

obviously...that is why you still have a mustang

I think you were saying that by that fact that you refused to read it. At that point you aren't even interested in someone else's opinion.....what if the letter was from a Muslim?

truthfully Im not really interested in his opinion or the opinion of the catholic church for that matter, does that give you a hint on how I feel about it? .......and I went to catholic school and was brought up in a religious family.....I dont even want to get into it because this thread will be locked.

good conversation!.........now wheres the beer? :D

Easy, boys.

I always love this kind of "logic." Based on your argument, we're all attracted to the same sex, but some of us are better at repressing the urge than others.

Where did you read that from? I’m saying we are all born with limitations…emotional, character, or physical….

That's just simply false. I could look at gay porn all day long and it wouldn't get me horny.

Me either, it disgust me…men are ugly compared to woman…two of them together and it’s an abomination…

It just doesn't do anything for me. How about you?

Not a bit, read above….nasty…

MRIs have shown that gay people have significant anatomical differences in their brains.

Hence a problem, weakness…but not something that can’t be overcome. That person might have been born with a weakness, like us all, but he/she does not have to be defined by their weakness…like us all. You say they are born that way…I say they might be born with a weakness in that way, but it’s not something that can not be overcome.

They say murders have different brains, chemicals in the brain, etc…yet we lock them up anyway. Yet we have laws that say murder is wrong, so…are we now to say murder is OK because they have a problem in their brain? Are we to say they just can’t help themselves?

I'm compareing homosexuality in terms of morality against murder, not saying we should lock homsexual people but love them and help them when we can.

Everyone is looking for an excuse…(sorry, I’m not trying to be insensitive about this but test of logic have to be applied universally)

If, you believe truth is universal…

RX8wannahave, you're not getting it. Gay men's brains are wired like a woman's brain. They're physically attracted to men because their brain tells them to be. It's a primal instinct.

Lesbian women's brains are wired like men's brains, they're physically attracted to women.

There's no logic involved here. Sure willpower can overcome lust, but when God made you that way, it's for a reason.

Uber, and the rest of you...it's not that I don't get what you are saying, it's that I don't agree.

That's all, but ignore me...cause me and Tayninh tend to attract closed threads...

There's no logic involved here. Sure willpower can overcome lust, but when God made you that way, it's for a reason.So we shouldn't try to fix mutations? That argument sounds rather odd coming from a cancer survivor. :confused:

*shrug* fair enough, you have a right to believe in what you want, facts be damned. But I guess that's the point isn't it, you won't accept the facts because they weren't "approved by GOD".

Here's a hint for you. If there was a GOD, then he created science to help us understand our world, after all, it shouldn't have to be explained to us right?

So if you take GOD's tools, and employ them to explain why something is the way it is, explain to me why you don't agree. If you don't believe in the tools provided by GOD, you don't believe in Him.

edit:

ER-Doc... I didn't say that ("shouldn't try to fix mutations") did I :-) Heck if a gay person wants to find a way to "fix" the genetic issue by all means go for it. But it doesn't NEED to be fixed. If you follow what I'm getting at.

[edit on the edit] to further clarify my response to ER-doc.

*shrug* fair enough, you have a right to believe in what you want, facts be damned. But I guess that's the point isn't it, you won't accept the facts because they weren't "approved by GOD".

LOL, that was funny...GOD is all about facts...man is all about deception and justification for all he/we do. Fact's...LOL, come on man...stop making jokes...

Here's a hint for you. If there was a GOD, then he created science to help us understand our world, after all, it shouldn't have to be explained to us right?

Uber, he is sooo past science it's crazy to even think about it. He gave us our brains, tht's for sure...and he said man would become VERY advanced...yet, with all our smarts...we still mess up everything and in the END...the truth will come out.

Explained? What...HECK YEAH, we are a bunch of selfish babies...we need explanations for everthing, hence...we we try to figure out everything on our won to begin with.

Science is not a bad word to me, trust me I love TLC, Discovery, Science channel but instead of realizeing what science points to, man says instead:

"Look good, what "I" figured out...I don't need you anymore"

My problem is the lack of honesty people have, they live by their own logic or the religion of science...then when it points to the truth...they ignore it and only teach or preach the science that agree's with their theory.

That's all...

I gotta go now...I"ll come back to read later, CU later...

So per that (sort of logic) we then should just give up and allow the world to fall into what ever it might, so why did we fight Hitler? Why did we fight a civil war/slavery? Why fight for good? Just grow up world…and accept what it is…logic, THAT AINT!


Back in the days of slavery, many people believed that God made blacks and Indians different from whites for a reason, and since they're different one must be superior. Continuing this line of thought, they believed that whites, the obviously superior race ( :rolleyes: ), had the right to tell those groups what they could or couldn't do and place restrictions on those heathen, pagan people that did not apply to the superior, more enlightened white race. They also quoted Biblical passages to support their position and felt just as strongly about slavery as many in the anti-gay movement feel about gays. Then came the Abolitionist movement that helped free the slaves and has now made such conservative lines of thought seem rediculous.

Fast forward 150 years in to the future. Nowadays we have some members of the majority who believe that, since they are obviously superior to gays, can tell those people what they can and can't do. I seem to remember my history teacher telling us at some point that history always repeats itself, so it's important that we learn about our past so we don't repeat those mistakes in the future. One hundred and fifty years from now, what will people think?

Look, people that call themselves “Christian” but follow nothing that GOD/JESUS said…ARE FALSE! Oh nooo, did I say that…will I get flamed…will this thread get closed…SO BE IT, I’m tired of getting grouped to people that are “Christian” by name only…

If you want to prove I’m wrong, I welcome it because I will always (GOD WILLING) be growing in this life so I will listen to what you have to say, but TRY USING THE BIBLE TO JUSTIFY HOMOSEXUALITY….come on….stop playing….and teach me from the word…cause everything else is just human logic. :eek:

Seeing as how you are someone who strongly and truly believes in the Bible, I have a serious question for you. The Bible, in multiple passages, condemns masturbation just as strongly as it condemns homosexuality if not moreso, and also mentions the act in a negative light more often. Why do many religious people focus only on the passages condemning homosexuality while all but ignoring those that condemn a much more widespread and mainstream act? I don't see any proposed legislation that will make self-pleasure illegal, even though outlawing that act will prevent far more sin than preventing homosexuals from marrying. Why does the less mentioned of the two sins garner so much more attention? I can't come up with a logical reason why someone who takes the Bible so literally would focus on homosexuals and ignore masturbaters. I don't want to start a flame war, I'd just kind of like to know the reasoning behind that line of thought.

So we shouldn't try to fix mutations? That argument sounds rather odd coming from a cancer survivor. :confused: Sorry, Doc, but your implication that homosexuality is the result of genetic (I assume) mutation is not by any means an established scientific "fact," and I suspect you know that. (i.e. Natural diversity does not result solely from genetic mutation; there are other factors at work, as well. Check your Darwin.)

Even if it were an established fact, the use of the term "mutation" in lay terms is not equivalent to its use as a scientific term, and again, I suspect you know that. Just as the term "abnormal" may suggest simply a deviation from a more typical condition, the term "mutation" may mean simply a deviation from a more common genetic trait. In neither case does the term necessarily suggest the need to "fix" it.

Were it not for genetic "mutations" of various kinds, we'd all by swimming around in the ocean wondering what that dry part of the world is like. Furthermore, our horses would be two feet tall and all our dogs would look alike.

As I'm sure you know, there is a well-known fallacy in biology termed the "naturalistic" fallacy, an assumption that the way the world works carries a moral component. Your use of the term "mutation" in conjunction with the injunction to "fix" a presumed problem comes perilously close to such a fallacy.

They say murders have different brains, chemicals in the brain, etc…yet we lock them up anyway. Yet we have laws that say murder is wrong, so…are we now to say murder is OK because they have a problem in their brain? Are we to say they just can’t help themselves?

We lock murderers, rapists, thieves, and others of that sort away because they are a threat to others. Most of the laws in our society work the same way- if an action harms another person, it's illegal and there are repercussions. Homosexuals do not represent a threat to others simply because they are homosexual, so locking them up for that reason alone would not make our society any safer or more peaceful.

Oh, I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay,
I sleep all night and I work all day.

I cut down trees, I eat my lunch,
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.

I cut down trees, I skip and jump,
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing,
And hang around in bars.

I chop down trees, I wear high heels,
Suspenders and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie
Just like my dear papa.

...
1 - I don't see that a society that STOPS lying to itself about homosexuality is an example of moral decay. I see it more as a society that's growing up and accepting the world for what it IS, rather than griping about what we WANT it to be.
So per that (sort of logic) we then should just give up and allow the world to fall into what ever it might, so why did we fight Hitler? Why did we fight a civil war/slavery? Why fight for good? Just grow up world…and accept what it is…logic, THAT AINT!
Why is it right wingers so often trot out Hitler to use for their slippery slopes? The POINT was that a society that STOPS sticking its head in the sand and lying to itself about homosexuality can hardly be called immoral by being more honest about its existence.

...
2 - Go easy on the Christian schtick. Quite a lot of Christians have no objection to homosexuality. The religious right's party line is not the only game in town.
What was that? (schtick) What were you trying to say?
Schtick = "An entertainment routine or gimmick." In other words, an act.

Look, people that call themselves “Christian” but follow nothing that GOD/JESUS said…ARE FALSE! Oh nooo, did I say that…will I get flamed…will this thread get closed…SO BE IT, I’m tired of getting grouped to people that are “Christian” by name only…
And I'm tired of right wingers belching propaganda that they have some sort of "ownership" of the term Christian. The extreme conservatism of sects like evangelicals represents a small minority of the Christians in this world. Claiming that those who don't follow YOUR interpretation of what Christianity should be "ARE FALSE" is just another form of religious intolerance. That's what I meant when I said, "The religious right's party line is not the only game in town."

Department stores and churches. Leave it to them. Get the government out of the marriage business. I mean, the religious among us don't want the government sanctioning the "gay lifestyle". Why should the government sanction the Heterosexual Agenda?

Department stores and churches. Leave it to them. Get the government out of the marriage business. I mean, the religious among us don't want the government sanctioning the "gay lifestyle". Why should the government sanction the Heterosexual Agenda?

so true

I mean, the religious among us don't want the government sanctioning the "gay lifestyle". Why should the government sanction the Heterosexual Agenda?Why shouldn't normalcy be recognized as such? And abnormality (perversion) not also recognized as such?

I think your getting a little heated with your terms here doc. No matter what your feelings are on these "perverts" or "mutants" I think it's kind of disrespectful to talk about people like that. It's simply an ignorant thing to say. It is a forum where you can say what you want, but your just making an ass out of yourself by getting so ugly about it.

I think your getting a little heated with your terms here doc. No matter what your feelings are on these "perverts" or "mutants" I think it's kind of disrespectful to talk about people like that. It's simply an ignorant thing to say. It is a forum where you can say what you want, but your just making an ass out of yourself by getting so ugly about it.

per·ver·sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-vûrzhn, -shn)
n.
A sexual practice or act considered abnormal or deviant.

If people are claming a genetic cause of homosexuality, it has to be from a mutation, because there is no known survival/genetic benefit to homosexuality, in fact, the opposite is true.

I stand behind my choice of terms. Your displeasure is noted. :rolleyes:

Why shouldn't normalcy be recognized as such? And abnormality (perversion) not also recognized as such?

'Normal' is what everyone else is; and you are not

-Dr. Soran (Star Trek: Generations)

Shoulda been here for the last Gay Marriage thread. Got a lot of people pissed and feelings hurt.I think he understands now.

Back and forth…back and forth…back and forth…

This book & chapter in the Bible explains why some people will never understand and why.

Anyone that would really like to talk about topics like homosexuality, abortion, or spiritual growth I direct you to the Bible first, but if you want to share or talk with me about it, just PM me. I don’t want to get this thread closed but it always seems to end this way.

(Note: I put the whole chapter so I’m not accused of “picking” the verses that agreed with my point or something. Sorry, but there is just no way to paste the whole Bible so if you really want to know what is in the Bible I suggest you go to a church and ask for one)

1 Corinthians 2

1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.

2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.

4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,

5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”

10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

So explaining spiritual things to an unspiritual person(mind) is like talking to a wall, they will never get it. The good news is all it takes is an honest, humble, and truth seeking heart that seeks to understand GOD and not accuse him. GOD does the rest...

I'm not perfect nor do I understand "everything" in the Bible, I truly believe no one does (because then that would mean they understand revalation which would mean that they would know when JESUS is comming back and NO ONE KNOWS THAT). I tell everyone...don't listen to me, go honestly seek out GOD on your own and he will do the rest.

I do not wish evil on anyone (homsexual or otherwise) so if your problem is with what is in the Bible, then that is between you and GOD. I can not convince anyone but if a question is made...then an honest answer should be allowed to be spoken. What I have written, and some others...is what we believe and were we get it from. We are shareing it just like those who disagree state what they believe, why, and were they get it from.

I hope this is not the post that killed the thread…but it probably will be…
:confused:

If people are claming a genetic cause of homosexuality, it has to be from a mutation, because there is no known survival/genetic benefit to homosexuality, in fact, the opposite is true.
Uh, hellooo, hair stylists? interior decorators. ruhlly. :rolleyes:
And of course there's the fact that they take a bunch of men out of the market thereby improving the chick/guy ratio.

Mutations happen all the time. Doesn't that make them normal?
It's all relative. Normal is boring. I like Nubo's quote.

edit: rx8wannahave got in there before me.
<rant>
The OP said to leave religion out of this, and it was like the 6th post before the pastor weighed in with the religious view. Can't you guys leave the bible out of this? I care what you think, not what the bible says. If I wanted to know what the bible says, I'd read it. Or do you think anything?
</rant>

The OP said to leave religion out of this, and it was like the 6th post before the pastor weighed in with the religious view. Can't you guys leave the bible out of this? I care what you think, not what the bible says. If I wanted to know what the bible says, I'd read it. Or do you think anything?

When we give a short explanation holding back as much as we can, we get called out...and called a bunch of hateing bigots...when we further explain why we think what we do, we get told to shut up about it since no one wants to hear it....

...there is no winning here for us, we are blamed or hated either way...

My thoughts are shaped by my faith...yes, and the day that changes is the day I stop calling myself a Christian...try to understand...

Why shouldn't normalcy be recognized as such? And abnormality (perversion) not also recognized as such?Doc, Doc, Doc...You're doing it again. You just can't resist can you? You begin with the concept of normality (OK, you start with "normalcy," a word invented for Warren Harding's run for President in 1920; another Repubican President who made up words as he went along.) Anyhow...

"Normality" is a statistical concept as well as a diagnostic one. For example, as a Texan you are an "abnormal" American in the sense that such an identity is common to only a minority of all Americans. (You may also be an "abnormal" American in other ways, but that's another discussion.) Homosexuality is undoubtedly "abnormal" in the sense that it is practiced by a mnority of the population. But...

You then go on to equate "abnormality" with "perversion," an emotionally loaded term which, as you implicitly admit, is based on a cultural definition of "normal" sexual practices. (i.e. " A sexual practice or act considered abnormal or deviant.") You fail to note that depending upon the society and the timeframe, many sexual acts, (e.g. oral sex) are and have been "considered abnormal or deviant."

So, you begin with a statistical concept, "normality," treat the term as a moral concept, and then equate "abnormality" with "perversion," a value laden, emotional term. Finally, you place this "analysis" in the context of supporting legal preference for "normalcy."

Come on, Doc. You know you're brighter than that. You apparently derive pleasure from this sort of word play designed to inflict degrading labels on some readers and others. If I were not so polite, I might note that such pleasure is "abnormal," reflecting a sadistic impulse that one might term "perverted." But I'm not that kinda guy.

When we give a short explanation holding back as much as we can, we get called out...and called a bunch of hateing bigots...when we further explain why we think what we do, we get told to shut up about it since no one wants to hear it....

...there is no winning here for us, we are blamed or hated either way...

My thoughts are shaped by my faith...yes, and the day that changes is the day I stop calling myself a Christian...try to understand...

rx8wannahave, I don't mean to unload on you personally. (ok, maybe I do). I never called you hating or bigoted. I care what you think, and I just want to honor the OP's desire to keep the thread from getting closed.

When we give a short explanation holding back as much as we can, we get called out...and called a bunch of hateing bigots...when we further explain why we think what we do, we get told to shut up about it since no one wants to hear it....

...there is no winning here for us, we are blamed or hated either way...
...
Try dropping the martyr routine and reply with something besides regurgitated Bible passages - especially ones unrelated to the topic.

Doc, Doc, Doc...You're doing it again. You apparently derive pleasure from this sort of word play designed to inflict degrading labels on some readers and others. If I were not so polite, I might note that such pleasure is "abnormal," reflecting a sadistic impulse that one might term "perverted." But I'm not that kinda guy.Rather a queer thing for me to do eh? :)

But I am a cunning linguist, so I enjoy it.

You fail to note that depending upon the society and the timeframe, many sexual acts, (e.g. oral sex) are and have been "considered abnormal or deviant."

But I am a cunning linguist, so I enjoy it.
Pervert. :p

I thought we solved this problem. Let the gays do their own thing, leave religion out of it (unless religion doesn't mind being involved), and the rest of you people, SHUT UP! Read back a few posts.

Jud

I thought we solved this problem. Let the gays do their own thing, leave religion out of it (unless religion doesn't mind being involved), and the rest of you people, SHUT UP!

Jud

You don't get to make the rules. Sorry.

Hurry up and get your digs in folks. As soon as Elara wakes up, this one is history.

I'm not making any rules, It's just that when Hitler was around, once a problem was solved it was solved. Oh wait, let me try that again.

When Hitler was leader of Germany, there were no problems. He would....no, that's not right either.

How about this, When Hitler said a problem was solved, no body would dare disagree with him.

Jud

Oh, come on somebody, bring it, bring it.

Jud

Rather a queer thing for me to do eh? :)

But I am a cunning linguist, so I enjoy it.


doc you're hilarious :)

rx8wannahave, I don't mean to unload on you personally. (ok, maybe I do). I never called you hating or bigoted. I care what you think, and I just want to honor the OP's desire to keep the thread from getting closed.

I understand…but it’s hard to hold back when some people insult or say lies about our faith. But, I’ll let it be…

Try dropping the martyr routine and reply with something besides regurgitated Bible passages - especially ones unrelated to the topic.

Boy…the hateful spew you are kicking out is amazing, say and think what you want….It wont change a thing…

Boy…the hateful spew you are kicking out is amazing, say and think what you want….It wont change a thing…
Pot calling kettle black?

Didn't you just complain about people calling you a hater?

Didn't you just complain about people calling you a hater?

Compare what I said to what he said....you judge, but the sarcasim, disrespect, and anger he writes with (at times of course and directed to me when I disagree) is evident...

Who wants to have a non-denominational, all sexual preferences, non racist...

GROUP HUG!!! ?

Who wants to have a non-denominational, all sexual preferences, non racist...

GROUP HUG!!! ?You gotta wipe that blue crap off first. :p

You gotta wipe that blue crap off first. :p
We don't have blue paint up north, you should know that ;)

It's aqua....

Paint? I thought he was just cold... :)

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :D

And put a shirt on.

You don't get to make the rules. Sorry.

Hurry up and get your digs in folks. As soon as Elara wakes up, this one is history.


LOL From what I've seen from the comments, this needs to be stopped by Elara!!

I kind of figured this would result in "unique" remarks back and forth. Its very difficult to discuss this without a pinch of religion in there somewhere. Religion is the major force in the way of folks who are pushing the gay agenda. I think sooner or later they will get their way just not now although you see it in the courts out there in certain states.

And put a shirt on.
Yes, Doctor! :rolleyes:

khtm, and take those horns off...you might poke someone's eye out...

Yup, what Tayninh said...

don't listen to me, go honestly seek out GOD on your own and he will do the rest.

Can you understand that many gay people have done just that? That they believe in God; have sought God and are at peace with what they have found? That they can lead lives of virtue? That they can practice both their religion AND their sexuality without contradiction? That YOUR understanding of God is not the only one?

I'm pretty sure you're born gay. I can't imagine someone wakes up one day and says "I wanna have sex with another man (or woman)." Granted some people come out later in life, but I'm sure they knew well before then that they were gay.

I know I cannot think of another man the way I think about women. My love of women feels natural to me. I'm sure gays and lesbians feel the same way.

Maybe one of our gay members will chime in on this.


Chime Chime


Yes i know damm well i was born gay, i had no choice it is who i am. Granted i have dated so many girls that i would need like 4 hands to count. One of the girls i was with for 3 years, everything was great, but underneath it all i knew it wasnt right. I was never complete or 100% happy. I remmenber since i was like 6 years old i was always looking at boys my age. Now i grew up in a good house granted my biological father used to beat me, my brother, and my mom. But that is besides the point no one can make u gay nor force you to be gay. You are born with it just like when people are born with phyiscal problems.

Here is some more history my older brother is St8 and so is the rest of my family except for one of my cousins.


Now with marriage i am so sick in tired of all this craop sayiong its a sin and all i can careless i really dont care. you have no idea how much i want to explode over this topic, i will get married no matter what and if u have a problem with me getting married u can shove it because knowone controlls who i love or who i want to spend teh rest of my life with.

the funny thing is if u guys were in my postion, if gay was normal and straight was a sin. I would love to see the aurgments there. Before you guys start throwing rocks take in for considerastion that if the world was diffrent you would have the stone thrown at you.

Can you understand that many gay people have done just that? That they believe in God; have sought God and are at peace with what they have found? That they can lead lives of virtue? That they can practice both their religion AND their sexuality without contradiction? That YOUR understanding of God is not the only one?

I read what you said...but enough from me...I wont respond anymore to this thread, well I'll do my best not to.

Starting now....

No, starting now....wait...no, now.....but, ok ok...NOW....

Thanks for chiming in eclps0. I hope you realize that a lot of the people commenting in this thread are on your side. Not everyone is against gay marriage.

, i will get married no matter what and if u have a problem with me getting married u can shove it because knowone controlls who i love or who i want to spend teh rest of my life with..

I'm pro-liberty and freedom and so I'm for letting gays and lesbians doing whatever they want, but I don't know if you know, it is officially Illegal in florida if you want to ever be legally married I recommend you go to California or Massechusettes(SP).

i am just in a depressed mood lately. I just dont know anymore i have no idea what to do with my life ect.

I'm pro-liberty and freedom and so I'm for letting gays and lesbians doing whatever they want, but I don't know if you know, it is officially Illegal in florida if you want to ever be legally married I recommend you go to California or Massechusettes(SP).California prohibits gay marriages, and Massachusetts does not allow nonresident gays to "marry" there.

http://www.stateline.org/stateline/?pa=story&sa=showStoryInfo&id=353058&columns=true

i am just in a depressed mood lately. I just dont know anymore i have no idea what to do with my life ect.

I thought you fixed things with your mom and got your "I use your losely...no offence" 8 back? Why are you sad?