After checking websites, auto shows, etc., there's no doubt in my mind that the RX-8 is a sweet ride from both a performance and appearance perspective. After looking through this message board, most everyone agrees. But I've still got some doubts in the area where, according to Mazda, this car is a real breakthrough - the family functionality.

I've got a 5-month old son, so any car I buy MUST be able to accomodate. Also, most of my driving is city driving, which, when coupled with the demands and distractions of a young child, make a manual transmission a dicey proposal at best.

With this perspective in mind, I'd like to solicit your opinions and feedback on a few areas where I'm struggling to justify this car. Remember, if you can't help me, you just may sentence yet another well-meaning father to 4-6 years in a Ford Taurus! So please, help a guy out!

In no particular order:

1. Can the rear seats REALLY accomodate child safety seats? I know they're LATCH compatible, but is there enough room to pull an infant carrier in and out? Or put a toddler into a booster seat?

2. Do the front seat belts attach to the pseudo-B-pillar on the rear door (as on the Honda Element) or are they seat mounted? (as on a car that's been designed sensibly) Opening the front AND rear door to let Little Johnny jump in when I pick him up will be enough trouble.

3. Is this car worth getting with an automatic tranny? With the engine putting out only 210 HP instead of 250 HP, will performance suffer dramatically? (I know peak torque is actually higher in the ATX, but I don't know how the curves compare.)

4. Is the trunk large enough to fit a child's stroller? We've got one of those heavy-duty travel system strollers for now. Until Little Johnny's a little older I've gotta be able to lug that thing around with him.

Thaks in advance for your help. I know these questions aren't as fun to answer as those about where to get your aftermarket double-bookshelf spoilers or what your vanity licence plate is going to read. With any luck, though, you can keep me out of the 3-box, 4-door, vanilla family sedan and help me pretend I'm still cool for a few more years....

Review this thread which mentions experience with child seat:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4485&perpage=15&highlight=child&pagenumber=2

Regarding trunk space:
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4292&highlight=trunk+space

Another reference to trunk (page 2):
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4483&perpage=15&highlight=JSG&pagenumber=2

good luck with your choice...

I know I don't need to tell you this, but honestly you shouldn't be fussing about in the back while driving any car - whether it is a manual OR auto tranny. In any case, I noticed that Mazda has the rear seat hip-room on their specs page. I intend to measure my boys' booster seats tonight for comparison, but I'm not anticipating any problems. I'll measure the seat area in my Nissan, too, because that is where their seats are now.

1. Can the rear seats REALLY accomodate child safety seats? I know they're LATCH compatible, but is there enough room to pull an infant carrier in and out? Or put a toddler into a booster seat?
I have a 4 month old daughter and we're doing fine. It's not as easy as a big sedan but I don't want a big sedan. Hardest part is if you're in a tight parking space so can't get in the doors very well. I just park away from everyone else!

2. Do the front seat belts attach to the pseudo-B-pillar on the rear door (as on the Honda Element) or are they seat mounted? (as on a car that's been designed sensibly) Opening the front AND rear door to let Little Johnny jump in when I pick him up will be enough trouble.
They attach at the back of the door opening space so he'll have to jump in and out of the passenger side where the seat pops forward easier. As long as he can do the door rear himself (opening from outside once you open the front and pulling shut before you close the front) you should be ok. Once he's back there he can't get out as you have to open the fronts first.

3. Is this car worth getting with an automatic tranny? With the engine putting out only 210 HP instead of 250 HP, will performance suffer dramatically? (I know peak torque is actually higher in the ATX, but I don't know how the curves compare.)
It's a sports car. Sports cars shouldn't have autos, but that's a personal opinion and it's been done to death. I live in one of the most congested cities in the world so don't tell me it's because of the traffic.

4. Is the trunk large enough to fit a child's stroller? We've got one of those heavy-duty travel system strollers for now. Until Little Johnny's a little older I've gotta be able to lug that thing around with him.
Not sure how big heavy duty is!? We have a small one that fits and anything I purchase from here on in will be tested to fit the car first. You got to get your priorities straight! :)

I have a two-year old daughter and currently have one of those car seats with the padded arm that hinges down in front of her to latch between her legs. Do any of you know whether or not there will be enough head room for it to swing open over the top of the baby seat to get her in and out of it?

When they talk about head room in a car, is that the measurement from the "butt" part of the seat to the headliner? If so, I could measure it in my Millenia and compare the measurements with the RX-8 measurement.

Another question.....does anybody know whether the Mazda car seat/booster seat comes in different colors? The only one I have seen a picture of was a royal blue color and it was in a black/red leather interior 8. YUCK! Looked horrible. Stood out like a neon sign. Anybody know of a link to where these can be looked at or purchased?

i'll be honest with my opinions and i very well may get flamed for it, but here goes...i think that if you have kids, you really shouldn't drive them around in the RX-8....i believe that the RX will be YOUR car and if you need to drive the family around, drive them in the sedan, or the SUV, or the van...to buy a sports car and have to consider lugging the family around is a waste of thought...you buy a sports car for speed, appearance, and overall coolness factor...then, if you have a family, buy another vehicle that's designed for that family like a Honda Accord...the RX may very well fit 4 people, but was it truly designed for it or did Mazda just want to make the RX appeal to a wider demographic? i think the latter...

IMO, if you want a family car, the Accord, the Maxima, or the Altima would suffice...but if you want a toy for yourself and perhaps 1 other person, then get the RX...don't count on those backseats for driving around your precious loved ones

BRx8 I couldn't agree more. I got my ass flamed out for saying the exact same thing as you. But I'm glad someone else has a little common sense. This is still a small, lightweight sports car. It isn't a family car. Does it have 4 doors, yup. Can you physically put 4 people inside of it, yup (I hope). However, to use this car as your #1 family car is a mistake. This car is more or less like a toy, not a practical drive the family everywhere sedan.

Both of you, consider yourselves flamed (again). What utter nonsense! Since when does having children mean that you're sentenced to a life of driving boredom? Since the RX-8 is expected to score top marks in the safety crash tests, just how is it any less safe to put a smaller person in the rear seat than in the rear seat of a boring seedan? (Hint: it's not) Aside from the "coolness factor", you guys obviously don't have children. You guys go right ahead and become boring old farts as soon as your first child is born. Let the rest of us continue to enjoy life to the fullest, including enjoying the driving experience in an interesting car. Exactly what can an Accord or Camry do that an RX-8 can't??? (Hint: nothing, aside from having slightly more luggage space) Sure, I'll concede if you're packing up the family for a two week camping trip then, the RX-8 is not a suitable vehicle. Otherwise - get real!

You buy a sports car because you really enjoy driving and want a car that is fun to drive; ideally, you buy a family car that is also fun to drive. Why on earth do you consider or insist that the two are mutually exclusive??? It's exactly that attitude that has condemned us to roadways clogged with dull, insipid, boring minivans and SUVs.

Wally, IMHO - live. Get the manual RX-8. Test-fit a stroller before you buy it, switch to a different stroller that fits if your current big-ass stroller doesn't. Enjoy your life, your kids will enjoy the RX-8 far more than a boring sedan as well! My daughter has ridden in my Miata with me since she was 2 - guess which car is her first pick to take if it's just two of us going somewhere? NOT the sedan.

Life is too short to drive boring cars. Even if, maybe especially if, you have kids.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Both of you, consider yourselves flamed (again). What utter nonsense! Since when does having children mean that you're sentenced to a life of driving boredom? Since the RX-8 is expected to score top marks in the safety crash tests, just how is it any less safe to put a smaller person in the rear seat than in the rear seat of a boring seedan? (Hint: it's not) Aside from the "coolness factor", you guys obviously don't have children. You guys go right ahead and become boring old farts as soon as your first child is born. Let the rest of us continue to enjoy life to the fullest, including enjoying the driving experience in an interesting car. Exactly what can an Accord or Camry do that an RX-8 can't??? (Hint: nothing, aside from having slightly more luggage space) Sure, I'll concede if you're packing up the family for a two week camping trip then, the RX-8 is not a suitable vehicle. Otherwise - get real!

You buy a sports car because you really enjoy driving and want a car that is fun to drive; ideally, you buy a family car that is also fun to drive. Why on earth do you consider or insist that the two are mutually exclusive??? It's exactly that attitude that has condemned us to roadways clogged with dull, insipid, boring minivans and SUVs.

well Gordon, i guess it is people like you that make driving sports cars boring by having to add those extra seats and doors, isn't it? wouldn't a sports car, logically, act more like a sports car without the extra doors and seats? would a Lamborghini, Ferrari, or Porche still define the very essence of what is a sports car if they included the back seats and 2 extra doors? you have to be joking...

let's get real, the 2004 RX-8 without the rear seats and 2 extra doors would be called the 2004 RX-7...the RX-8 needs to appeal to the masses by including those extra 2 seats/2 doors in order to gain appeal to the forthcoming RX-7...

but can you seriously sit there and think for one second that Mazda truly designed the car with backseat comfort in mind?!? just like any other 2+2 sports cars out there, they're there to serve a purpose (ahem, insurance) but you wouldn't want to sit there for more than you have to...let's face it, it's there when you HAVE to use it, you wouldn't want to sit in the backseat otherwise...

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Both of you, consider yourselves flamed (again). What utter nonsense! Since when does having children mean that you're sentenced to a life of driving boredom? Since the RX-8 is expected to score top marks in the safety crash tests, just how is it any less safe to put a smaller person in the rear seat than in the rear seat of a boring seedan? (Hint: it's not) Aside from the "coolness factor", you guys obviously don't have children. You guys go right ahead and become boring old farts as soon as your first child is born. Let the rest of us continue to enjoy life to the fullest, including enjoying the driving experience in an interesting car. Exactly what can an Accord or Camry do that an RX-8 can't??? (Hint: nothing, aside from having slightly more luggage space) Sure, I'll concede if you're packing up the family for a two week camping trip then, the RX-8 is not a suitable vehicle. Otherwise - get real!

You buy a sports car because you really enjoy driving and want a car that is fun to drive; ideally, you buy a family car that is also fun to drive. Why on earth do you consider or insist that the two are mutually exclusive??? It's exactly that attitude that has condemned us to roadways clogged with dull, insipid, boring minivans and SUVs.

Wally, IMHO - live. Get the manual RX-8. Test-fit a stroller before you buy it, switch to a different stroller that fits if your current big-ass stroller doesn't. Enjoy your life, your kids will enjoy the RX-8 far more than a boring sedan as well! My daughter has ridden in my Miata with me since she was 2 - guess which car is her first pick to take if it's just two of us going somewhere? NOT the sedan.

Life is too short to drive boring cars. Even if, maybe especially if, you have kids.

Regards,
Gordon



Man what an awesome post. Gord you are the man I completely agree with you.

Wally go for it. MAN.

Since the RX-8 is expected to score top marks in the safety crash tests, just how is it any less safe to put a smaller person in the rear seat than in the rear seat of a boring seedan? (Hint: it's not) I'M glad the RX-8 got good, if not excellent, safety ratings COMPARED TO THE CARS IN ITS CLASS (I.E. OTHER SMALL SPORTS CARS) You CAN'T compare safety ratings across other classes, due to the weight of the vehicle. It is an unfair advantage to the heavier vehicles regardless of air bags etc... According to the NCAP, "Depending on the weight of a vehicle, it can be compared to other vehicles in it's class. Since a frontal crash test into a fixed barrier is similar to a crash between two vehicles of the same weight, the frontal crash test results can only be compared to other vehicles in the same weight class and those plus or minus 250 lbs." And that, Gordon my friend, means that your precious RX-8 is meatloaf if you get into a head on collision with a heavier car.

Exactly what can an Accord or Camry do that an RX-8 can't??? (Hint: nothing, aside from having slightly more luggage space) Exactly. It is that extra weight and space that means the difference between your car getting totaled and depending on the air bags to SAVE your life, and just being in a accident where the air bag is just an added safety device.

You buy a sports car because you really enjoy driving and want a car that is fun to drive; ideally, you buy a family car that is also fun to drive. Why on earth do you consider or insist that the two are mutually exclusive??? It's exactly that attitude that has condemned us to roadways clogged with dull, insipid, boring minivans and SUVs. Wrong. People buy sports cars because they want to show-off and in many cases they already have "other" cars to do *sensible* things with (i.e. driving the family around. People that don't have a car *usually* don't reach for a sports car as their only car, regardless of how much fun it is to drive. They reach for something that fits all their needs sensibly. When one has that type of car already and has extra cash to spend, then let the sport toys reign.


Enjoy your life, your kids will enjoy the RX-8 far more than a boring sedan as well! My daughter has ridden in my Miata with me since she was 2 - guess which car is her first pick to take if it's just two of us going somewhere? NOT the sedan. Agreed. The 8 will be more fun to drive then 95% of the cars out their. However, if the Miata was your only car and you're driving your 2 yr old daughter in it, you are being selfish. So you can have a fun time driving your car, your daughters life is much more at risk, then say in a Maxima. You make it sound like sedans are slow and trud through the streets. Cars are very responsive and handle extremely well and did I mention, ummmm, errrr, dare I say SAFER!

Grow up Gordon. You aren't 20 years old anymore (I hope). You don't need to have a sports car to feel "alive" (as you put it). And if you do....well I feel sorry for you.

And Gordon one more thing. When you respond back, I can't wait to read what you say, don't talk about how sports cars are fun to drive et al. No kidding. We all know that. The discussion is on safety of the 8 compared to other vehicles. In addition, try to come back with something of a technical aspect defending your position. Try not to just 'flame' people and take shots at them to get some laughs from other people. That is why people HATE FLAMERS. It isn't that you disagree that is a problem, it is just that you have nothing new to add stating your position and when you do (sports cars=fun to drive) it isn't related one bit to the topic at hand.

Regards,
Goldenhue22

Originally posted by 91vert
I have a two-year old daughter and currently have one of those car seats with the padded arm that hinges down in front of her to latch between her legs. Do any of you know whether or not there will be enough head room for it to swing open over the top of the baby seat to get her in and out of it?
Check with your local police department, but I believe there is a point when a child needs to use a 5-point rather than the fat arm. My boys fit just fine in 5-points when they were 2. You may find it to be worth springing for the new seat. Ideally, wait until you get the car, and ensure the baby, the seat, and the car all fit together nicely.
Another question.....does anybody know whether the Mazda car seat/booster seat comes in different colors? The only one I have seen a picture of was a royal blue color and it was in a black/red leather interior 8. YUCK! Looked horrible. Stood out like a neon sign. Anybody know of a link to where these can be looked at or purchased?
The seat you refer to was depicted in the press kit, and is not manufactured for the U.S. market. I know, because I scoured the internet just to figure out what it was, and saw them available in the U.K., but not U.S. If memory serves it is a Britax, but forgot the exact model (Roundabout, perhaps?). I'd be surprised to see it at our dealerships. Fortunately my boys are big enough for boosters - theirs match the red/black interior.

On that subject, our primary family vehicle is the Sante Fe, and the RX-8 is mine. The whole family WILL be riding in the RX-8 from time to time, but not on a regular basis. Not like we'd be able to do the grocery shopping in the thing - not for a family of four, plus 2 dogs and 2 cats. Maybe a few drives to the beach - that sort of thing. Also, when it's just the boys and me out mucking about. It'll definitely be better seating for them than my 240SX.

I'm with Gordon. Depends on where you live. A lot of people don't have the luxury of having more than one car including me. If I wanted a toy just for myself then I would have kept my S2000 but I'd never have had time to use it - my spare time is with my family. I don't buy your safety arguments either. You've got to plan not to crash! If you get totalled in your RX-8 and injure your family that might be better than you killing yourself in an S2000 going crazy because there is nobody else in the car, leaving your family without a Dad. Out here I don't have SUV's to bulldoze me anyway.

Okay, I remembered that the child seat in the press kit was a Britax Duo Isofix... as for the argument that the RX-8 is unsafe for children:

Goldenhue22 wrote:
I'M glad the RX-8 got good, if not excellent, safety ratings COMPARED TO THE CARS IN ITS CLASS (I.E. OTHER SMALL SPORTS CARS) You CAN'T compare safety ratings across other classes, due to the weight of the vehicle. It is an unfair advantage to the heavier vehicles regardless of air bags etc... According to the NCAP, "Depending on the weight of a vehicle, it can be compared to other vehicles in it's class. Since a frontal crash test into a fixed barrier is similar to a crash between two vehicles of the same weight, the frontal crash test results can only be compared to other vehicles in the same weight class and those plus or minus 250 lbs." And that, Gordon my friend, means that your precious RX-8 is meatloaf if you get into a head on collision with a heavier car.
Goldenhue22 ALSO wrote:
Exactly. It is that extra weight and space that means the difference between your car getting totaled and depending on the air bags to SAVE your life, and just being in a accident where the air bag is just an added safety device.

What defines the vehicle class? From your post it would sound as if the only distinction for crash testing is the weight of the vehicle. If that is true, then by your rationale my kids also don't belong in a Civic (2652 lbs.) or a Corolla (2502 lbs.) by a longshot. Not only that, but an Accord LX at 3099 lbs. is only marginally heavier than the RX-8 (3029 lbs.). A Camry LE curbs at 3142 lbs., an Altima 2.5 curbs at 3049 lbs., and a Maxima GXE curbs at 3233 lbs. By your 250lb. rule, crash test results CAN be compared between these cars and the RX-8. So, how does it rate in comparison? Let us know, because now we are all very interested to hear why the RX-8 is an unsafe vehicle. Does the DOT and NHTSA know what a deathtrap the car is? Well, Gordon, looks we'll have to go buy Hummers instead...oh darn :D

Edit: My curb weight data for the RX-8 came from Mazda, and curb weights for the other 2003 model cars came from Kelley Blue Book.

OMG you yanks have to stop putting 5ton trucks on your roads thinking there safer.

Half your road deaths come from SUV's and trucks rolling over, thats hardly saf, the US has an appaling record (compared to the UK) on road saftey.

You guys need to look at yourselves and your attitudes before pointing fingers at what I'd call a fairly normal sized car.

Stop driving drunk, use seatbelts, dont rely on super huge cars with high centres of gravity and more airbags than zepplins to save you.

IMo to the first poster try the RX-8 when theres a test car. Dont get an auto, sports cars are manual, its not that hard to drive a manual and so much more fun/sporty.

If your kids push chair doesnt fit get one that does, dont let a $100 item that you wont use for more than a year stop you buying the car that you want.

Oh and I dont think the RX-8 is lightweight. Its 1400kgs, lighweight is the lotus elise (750kg or 1650llbs) or something like a caterham (430kg or 964llbs). The RX-8 is actualy hevier than my current car a ford focus I believe, which is a standard small family car here.

Originally posted by RobDickinson
OMG you yanks have to stop putting 5ton trucks on your roads thinking there safer.

Half your road deaths come from SUV's and trucks rolling over, thats hardly saf, the US has an appaling record (compared to the UK) on road saftey.

You guys need to look at yourselves and your attitudes before pointing fingers at what I'd call a fairly normal sized car.

Stop driving drunk, use seatbelts, dont rely on super huge cars with high centres of gravity and more airbags than zepplins to save you.

IMo to the first poster try the RX-8 when theres a test car. Dont get an auto, sports cars are manual, its not that hard to drive a manual and so much more fun/sporty.

If your kids push chair doesnt fit get one that does, dont let a $100 item that you wont use for more than a year stop you buying the car that you want.

Oh and I dont think the RX-8 is lightweight. Its 1400kgs, lighweight is the lotus elise (750kg or 1650llbs) or something like a caterham (430kg or 964llbs). The RX-8 is actualy hevier than my current car a ford focus I believe, which is a standard small family car here.


Seems fair.

3. Is this car worth getting with an automatic tranny? With the engine putting out only 210 HP instead of 250 HP, will performance suffer dramatically? (I know peak torque is actually higher in the ATX, but I don't know how the curves compare.)

If this is your family car than you should rather get the auto. If I lived in the U.S. I certainly would! If 210HP are not enough for your family car -- I don't know... The performance difference will not be SO big deal, some tenth of a second 0-60 and some MPH less, SO WHAT?

I look out for the 192HP manual 5-speed here in Europe. That should be a wonderful car!

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
Wrong. People buy sports cars because they want to show-off

You may speak for yourself, but with that statement you certainly do not speak for me. I don't give a damn what other people think of my vehicles - and that doesn't mean I don't keep my vehicles in top condition cosmetically and mechanically, but I do it for me and for my enjoyment, not for showing off. Speaking of growing up... ;) While I wouldn't be caught dead in an Aztek (well, for many reasons), and a Z4 isn't to my liking style-wise, there's very few vehicles where style and what other people think of them that would influence my choice of vehicles. If that were a factor, I'd be scared to drive a Miata because some rednecks might think I was gay for driving a "girlie car"! 90% of people out there know diddly about cars, so why on earth should their opinions matter to me and why should I be wasting my time trying to impress them??

The 8 will be more fun to drive then 95% of the cars out their. However, if the Miata was your only car and you're driving your 2 yr old daughter in it, you are being selfish. So you can have a fun time driving your car, your daughters life is much more at risk, then say in a Maxima. You make it sound like sedans are slow and trud through the streets. Cars are very responsive and handle extremely well and did I mention, ummmm, errrr, dare I say SAFER!

I am raising my children to be responsible, but to live life with enjoyment and gusto, and am teaching them to approach adventures with safety in mind but with excitement also in mind. I certainly will not be teaching them to hide in the closet and to avoid any risk at all cost. I will NOT drive a Volvo because it might score 2% higher in a safety test. I "retired" from the Volunteer Ski Patrol at Lake Louise near Banff, Alberta (one of the top ski resorts on the continent) after 15 years of patrolling - I know the risks of skiing better than 99% of participants in the sport, since I spent years hauling them off the mountain in toboggans. Yet I choose to accept those risks for myself because the pleasure and enjoyment of the sport far outweigh the risks, and the risks can be minimized and managed. I taught my son to ski, my wife to ski, and I'm teaching my daughter to ski (because they all want to participate in the sport). Is skiing a risky sport? Perhaps, certainly more so than watching hockey on TV. But done properly, risks can be minimized. But life is in the living, it's in the adventure and in the excitement. SAFETY is NOT the overriding concern that will govern my life or those of my children (It's always a factor and an important consideration, don't get me wrong). It would be grossly irresponsible of me to turn them into paranoid shadows of people who are afraid to judge activities for themselves and who would refuse to participate in activities because they've got an element of risk.

Grow up Gordon. You aren't 20 years old anymore (I hope). You don't need to have a sports car to feel "alive" (as you put it). And if you do....well I feel sorry for you. You might think of it as growing up, I'd think of it as abandoning excitement and dooming my kids to boredom. I previously said that it would be a shame to turn into an old fart as soon as you have children - to put it another way, age is a state of mind - you're only as old as you feel and act. I've never driven drunk, I maintain my cars religiously, I won't drive on all-season tires in winter because they're not safe, I put a rollbar in my Miata, I take performance driving schools not just because they're fun, but because I believe in active safety and avoiding "accidents" rather than riding them through in the safest tank available (PS, there are no such things as car accidents - there is always a cause, and it's always preventable. Call them incidents instead).

By your arguments, I should be buying the biggest, heaviest vehicle I can possibly find, because you seem to equate mass with safety. I vehemently disagree - perhaps if you intend to crash into a wall or another vehicle, and presuming that the massive vehicle is properly engineered with respect to controlled crush and energy management (and that's not at all a safe assumption to make), then you'd be right. However, I much prefer a vehicle which will give me some capability to avoid an accident before it happens - active safety features are much more a priority to me than passive safety (by the way, did I mention that I've disabled both airbags in my Miata? Stupidest, most asinine government nanny regulation ever imposed, all because Americans refused to wear seatbelts in any significant number).

Now, you may insist that the discussion is about safety of the RX-8 compared to other family vehicles - but I didn't see that subject in any of the questions asked by Wally in the first post in this thread, other than to ask how child seats fit. YOU equate family vehicles with crash safety above all else. Wally didn't, and I don't, and many others don't as well. Sure, we want to drive safe vehicles - but we do not want to be forced to choose massive, heavy, tanks that crash well into walls but have poor active safety, and that are deadly boring to steer around in a stupor. There are alternatives, and my priorities are obviously different than yours.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by RobDickinson
OMG you yanks have to stop putting 5ton trucks on your roads thinking there safer.
Amen, brother. I can't believe it is 2003, and the American obsession with LARGE vehicles to haul our fat butts still thrives. When will we get over ourselves and lighten up (no pun intended)?

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
I'M glad the RX-8 got good, if not excellent, safety ratings COMPARED TO THE CARS IN ITS CLASS (I.E. OTHER SMALL SPORTS CARS) You CAN'T compare safety ratings across other classes, due to the weight of the vehicle.

Good morning! Because of the late hour, I forgot one or two points for this discussion in my previous post! ;)

"Safety" is all relative, anyway... would you feel that a 1974 Suburban is safer than an RX-8? Yes, it has a whole lot more mass, but aside from that it has zero thought given to crash safety in it's design. I'd guarantee that you'd be far less safe in a 74 Suburban than an RX-8. Even just considering sedans, since I don't want to be accused of exaggerating, I'd still say that the RX-8 is safer than 90% of the sedans currently on the road, regardless of size.

For example, would you feel safer in a 1994 Pontiac Bonneville or a 2004 RX-8? There's no question in my mind that the RX-8 is infinitely better engineered and designed for occupant protection than the 10 years older, significantly larger, GM family sedan, and that in a head-on collision between the two, I'd far sooner have my kids in the RX-8. So do you suggest that someone carrying children in a 94 Bonneville is selfish and unnecessarily endangering their children?

Safety is all relative - taken to extremes, you'd never let your kids go outside, thered' be no bath tub in your house, no electricity or heating in your house, no cooking facility, etc. You have to find an acceptable balance. Bike riding is risky and dangerous - do you refuse to cycle or refuse to let your kids cycle, or do you and your kids wear bike helmets and practice awareness and safety guidelines while enjoying the activity?

Relatively speaking, riding in ANY passenger vehicle on public roads is less safe than staying home - where do you draw the line? Again, with my mechanical engineering background and enthusiasm for autos spanning 30 years (by the way, I'm 43), I am absolutely comfortable with the fact that the engineering of safety features and crash safety in the RX-8 makes it one of the more safe sub-truck vehicles on the road in any size. Not the safest, but safe enough. As for the Miata - again, it's relative, but the MX-5 is one seriously well designed car - one of our Miataforum members wrote recently that their son was driving his Miata when a Subaru Forester crossed the center line on a curve and they collided head-on. The Miata driver survived with relatively minor injuries, the woman driving the Subaru died.

There's no guarantees based on arbitrary government tests, and you can't let paranoia govern your life. Be reasonable in taking safety into consideration, and enjoy life! Another example - a different Miataforum member is a dermatologist - given the increasing rates of skin cancer from sun exposure, not necessarily the sort of person you'd expect to own a convertible, right? :) He has written about reasonable precautions to take when cruising top down (sunblock, hat, etc), but he certainly doesn't advocate that people no longer drive convertibles nor that they stay out of the sun (well, aside from peak hours of 10 - 2 :D).

Regards,
Gordon

good morning, sorry i misssed out on the conversation...

now let's not forget what the original main point of this thread is...it's whether the RX-8 would suffice as your everyday family car...this thread is NOT about "living life to the fullest even after you have kids and a wife"...

so let's answer the question of CAN the RX be used as an everyday family car? well yes...the real question however, is SHOULD you use it as an everyday family car? the answer is clearly no...

the original poster asked how fitting the child safety seat was...well i'm sure it fits but are you gonna want to struggle getting your child or the child seat in and out of the cramped back seat EVERYDAY?

he also asked if the stroller would fit in the trunk...most likely not...i heard that you can't push the back seats down but there is a pass through bin you can open...it MAY fit through there...i suggest going into the dealer and test driving one first...

as for the mid-life crisis thing, well all i can say is you have a responsibility to your wife and child to provide for them...getting a sporst car is clearly a choice for yourself...the ideal car for a family is a family car, one that COMFORTABLY seats 4 or more people and has EASY ACCESS to the back seats...a sports car should not take the place of a family car...

Originally posted by RobDickinson
OMG you yanks have to stop putting 5ton trucks on your roads thinking there safer.

Half your road deaths come from SUV's and trucks rolling over, thats hardly saf, the US has an appaling record (compared to the UK) on road saftey.

OK, this I have to put an end to. This statement is just purely incorrect. Take a look at this link: http://www.suv.com/suvsafety/ and let me quote from that link (not the only place that will tell you the same thing): "Since SUVs do better in collisions than cars, and there are more collisions than roll overs, the safety edge goes to the SUVs." Next Fellright goes on to say, "If you look at overall fatality rates, sport utility vehicles have a lower fataltiy rates than do passenger cars."

I own the truck pictured below and although it's still street legal, I built it for offroad use. The only time I drive it is to and back from the trails. Now I am a huge rotary fan and love the RX-8 and will be buying one, but you can't for a second tell me that someone in the RX-8 will have a greater chance of survival than someone in a larger vehicle should they go head-to-head with this truck or an 18-wheeler. Only a very small percentage of highway deaths occur in SUV's as opposed to passenger cars. The media has just blown the whole SUV thing out of proportion to gain ratings.

Now this being said, I think driving techniques are far more important to have than relying on your vehicle to protect you in a crash. I would take superior driving skills (something that's missing from the vast majority of drivers) and a nimble car over a safer, but clumsy vehicle any day. Avoiding an accident is far better than hoping to survive one. I too think too many Americans are buying SUV's than is justified by need. SUV's serve a purpose, but too many soccer moms are buying them to feel superior on the road without a need for a truck or thinking about the significance of owning an SUV.

http://66.7.14.210/~killerx/Pika/dscf0019.jpg

I support all of the people who are getting the RX-8 and have children that will be traveling with them in the vehicle. Mazda did design the RX-8 as a sporty sedan to accommadate not only to people like you and I but to the majority of people in the market for something that seats more than just 2 people and has virtually no trunk space. My father is corporate Mazda and trust me when I say that the RX-8 is tops on safety features. My father would not in any way shape nor form encourage me to drive a vehicle with his granddaughters were it not safe or accommodating. It burns me up that everyone assumes because you have kids you should drive a volvo, or some huge SUV......as most of my friends do. I however buck the trend. Why must it be a Suburban, or Volvo, or BMW to drive? Its programming that is drilled into friends, family and others by the people who made the post in the room insuating that the RX-8 is not the right choice for anyone with children or family. What a crock of crap that was. Our family has several vehicles and we are fortunate enough to have the money to afford them. I could have bought a Hummer....but why? Because its huge, over priced, and a gas guzzler? I came very close to buying a BMW (which my father called junk) and the only reason was becasue of the name. I do own a Mini van (and shutter at the sound of it) which is of course a Mazda MPV (2001)with the entertainment package (which is great for my kids). I bought it because my father got it for me at an unbelievable price and I use it for trips often. I am however also getting a Silver RX-8 and you can rest assured that I will be driving that at every oppurtunity....with my kids sitting happily in their car seats in the back seat. If I were not as fortunate as I am to have as many vehicles, I would still buy the RX-8 and drive my girls in it. I was thrilled when my father first informed me that Mazda was going to be producing the RX-8 and it was a 4 seater, and when I saw the first pictures it was even better than I had imagined. I can't wait to get mine and my girls are just as excited. I would choose driving that over the mini van, any of our trucks or other sports car. This car is made for a diverse market and kudos to Mazda for its innovative design. BTW...my father owns a mint condition 3rd generation RX-7 twin turbo and he wouldn't trade that for any vehicle on the market today...including the RX-8. That vehicle was made not to accomade family. My sister still lives at home with him and he still won't let her drive it. In fact he doesn't like anyone drving it but him......its as much a member of the family as we are. I am sure I will end up being just as possessive over my RX-8.

Originally posted by HalleysComet
I support all of the people who are getting the RX-8 and have children that will be traveling with them in the vehicle. Mazda did design the RX-8 as a sporty sedan to accommadate not only to people like you and I but to the majority of people in the market for something that seats more than just 2 people and has virtually no trunk space. My father is corporate Mazda and trust me when I say that the RX-8 is tops on safety features. My father would not in any way shape nor form encourage me to drive a vehicle with his granddaughters were it not safe or accommodating. It burns me up that everyone assumes because you have kids you should drive a volvo, or some huge SUV......as most of my friends do. I however buck the trend. Why must it be a Suburban, or Volvo, or BMW to drive? Its programming that is drilled into friends, family and others by the people who made the post in the room insuating that the RX-8 is not the right choice for anyone with children or family. What a crock of crap that was. Our family has several vehicles and we are fortunate enough to have the money to afford them. I could have bought a Hummer....but why? Because its huge, over priced, and a gas guzzler? I came very close to buying a BMW (which my father called junk) and the only reason was becasue of the name. I do own a Mini van (and shutter at the sound of it) which is of course a Mazda MPV (2001)with the entertainment package (which is great for my kids). I bought it because my father got it for me at an unbelievable price and I use it for trips often. I am however also getting a Silver RX-8 and you can rest assured that I will be driving that at every oppurtunity....with my kids sitting happily in their car seats in the back seat. If I were not as fortunate as I am to have as many vehicles, I would still buy the RX-8 and drive my girls in it. I was thrilled when my father first informed me that Mazda was going to be producing the RX-8 and it was a 4 seater, and when I saw the first pictures it was even better than I had imagined. I can't wait to get mine and my girls are just as excited. I would choose driving that over the mini van, any of our trucks or other sports car. This car is made for a diverse market and kudos to Mazda for its innovative design. BTW...my father owns a mint condition 3rd generation RX-7 twin turbo and he wouldn't trade that for any vehicle on the market today...including the RX-8. That vehicle was made not to accomade family. My sister still lives at home with him and he still won't let her drive it. In fact he doesn't like anyone drving it but him......its as much a member of the family as we are. I am sure I will end up being just as possessive over my RX-8.

Totally agree with you. I think the RX-8 is a great family car if your emphasis is on driving. Some families prefer the extra space of a minivan or SUV and that's understandable too.

BTW, if you don't mind me asking: who is your father and how is he "corporate Mazda"? Inquiring minds want to know?

Originally posted by BRx8
the ideal car for a family is a family car, one that COMFORTABLY seats 4 or more people and has EASY ACCESS to the back seats

So then a Lancer Evo or a Subaru Sti would be great family cars eh?

I bought a MX-6 (manual 1993+) when my children were 10 and 6, with one still using a car seat. The MX-6 was just fine pulling the four of us (husband over 220lbs) for the next 11 years. It continued as a family car as the kids grew adding over 200lbs to the MX-6 workload, all though it did become more cramped for the ones in the back (who cares). I was able to get in the RX-8 at the Atlanta car show in March and it has more space in the back and overall than the MX-6. The seats are flatter and wider (better to accomodate a child's car seat). Getting into the back of the RX-8 is a breeze, even if you are carrying a heavy car seat and will certainly not be a problem for the kids to jump in and out of. As far as the trunk goes, I'm not quite sure because of all the different types of strollers out there now. The opening is small.

Wow, what a great thread.

Well, Goldenhue22, looks like you are definitely from the old school. You are absolutely right, people used to buy sport cars to show off and as a secondary fun car. But that was then.

The whole economy nowadays are pushing for Integration. That means the current market favours product that fits as many roles as possible. For example, PDA/Digital Camera Cell Phone, Multimedia Home Threatre Systems, etc. Therefore, it is only smart for car manufacturer to provide cars that meets as many of a car buyer's need as possible. Mazda NEEDS to sell lots of their car and fast. That's the reason they designed the RX-8 as it is.

Think about it, if you only have resources to get one car, doesn't it make sense to get one car that fits all of your needs in a whole package. Sure it is not as fast as a 350Z, not as roomy as a camry. But it has got above averge scores across the board.

Both BRx8, Goldenhue22 points are that the RX-8 should be a specialize vechicle just for fun, autoCrossing and other fun stuff which I think, sure why not, RX-8 is totally capabable of that. But don't forget, Mazda DID design two very functional back seats and the car IS a very safe vechicle so you can't be offended just because other owners simply going ahead and take full advantage of all the other features that comes with along with the car (which you decides not to use).

The bottom line is, whether you are putting a Child safety seat in the back or ripping out the back seats for your Nos system, you are still buying the same car and that, my friends is smart product marketing.

In terms of safety, my take is always favours cars with more active safety features than passive safety. ie, I rather have a car that perform well in emergency line charge, great braking, with great dynamic stability control than a car that got tonnes of airbags and got good crash test results.

medcina have a look at
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/Rpts/2003/2002EARelease.pdf

National Center for Statistics & Analysis Major Findings :

2002 Early Assessment The Estimated Number of Persons Motor Vehicle Traffic Crashes Increased to
the Highest Level since 1990.

Occupant Fatalities Accounted for All of the Increase in Total Fatalities.

Most of the Increase in Occupant Fatalities
was in Pickup Trucks,SUVs and Vans.

Most Passenger Vehicle Occupant Fatalities
continue to be Unrestrained.

Alcohol-Related Fatalities Increased.

The Increase in Alcohol-Related Fatalities
was concentrated in Occupants of Vans and
SUVs and Riders of Motorcycles.

SUVs,Vans,and Motorcycles had a larger increase in Alcohol-Involved Drivers than other vehicles.

Passenger Vehicle Occupant Fatalities in Rollover Crashes Increased.

Fatality Increases in SUV and Pickup
Rollovers Accounted for:

Nearly half of the Increase in Total Occupant
Fatalities

Most of the Increase in Passenger Vehicle
Rollover Fatalities.

Passenger Car Occupant Fatalities in Two-
Vehicle Crashes with a Pickup Truck, Van or SUV Increased.

Occupant Fatalities in Pickup Trucks, SUVs and Vans accounted for 59% of the Increase in all Motor Vehicle Occupant Fatalities.
but ?

Fatalities in Passenger Cars were essentially Unchanged.

Most Passenger Vehicle Occupants Killed in Motor Vehicle Crashes Continue to be Unrestrained

Your drunken, unrestrained SUV drivers are killing themselves and other people

More bigger cars isnt your answer. Better cars (not SUV's trucks) and safer driving practices (no alchohol + use seatbelts) is what the US needs.


EDIT : missed this bit :


61% of SUV Occupant Fatalities Continued to Occur in Rollover crashes.
The Next Highest Proportion of Occupant Fatalities in Rollover crashes was 46% in Pickup Trucks

Hi Gord,

Just wondering, you planning on getting rid of your Miata to get the 8? or is it replacing one of your other cars?

I find it interesting that people who, from what I can tell, don't have children have such strong opinions as to what those of us with children should drive.

I had the boring cars for most of my life, getting bigger and safer cars at the behest of my ex-wife and was satisfied with those cars at the time. Times change and if I had to do it again I would go a different route.

The car you drive should depend on what you are going to do with it. I have a nice big 4 door "family" car that we take when we have to do some "family" type things. My company car is a Miata since 99.99% of the time I go to work by myself. Why should I not have fun doing it. My wife drives a Jeep YJ and loves it. She hates to park the intrepid because it is so big. She also loves to go mountain climbing with it. When I had to get a car to teach my son to drive in we got another Miata. It has little power to get him into trouble and is nimble enough to get him out.

As far as getting this as the only car, why not? Most people leave the car seat in the car all the time so taking it in and out is not an issue. I have seen a lot of people with 2 door cars with kids, this will surely be better then that. In a couple of years the kid will be in a booster seat. As far as the stroller is concerned, you can get a cheap small one for the car for next to nothing, do you really need a stroller as big as your car?

As others on this forum and especially on the Miata.net having kids is no reason to give up your life.

Got to go now, the wife and I are leaving for Vermont in the Miata for the weekend, 20C and sunshine, or so I am told. Good thing the only thing it holds in the trunk is our toothbrushes and there's no room for the kids. :D

...the real question however, is SHOULD you use it as an everyday family car? the answer is clearly no...
Since so many people disagree with you the answer is not clearly anything, let alone "clearly no". Your opinion is clear, but the actual answer is quite clearly unclear and may be just an opinion.

Back to the original question regarding the RX8 and the auto. If you get the auto RX8, you'll get a car with great handling and braking, reasonable room for four, and decent acceleration. The 210hp will be available through out a large portion of the rev range, and because of its handling it should still be a fun car to drive.

Originally posted by BRx8
now let's not forget what the original main point of this thread is...it's whether the RX-8 would suffice as your everyday family car...this thread is NOT about "living life to the fullest even after you have kids and a wife"...

So have a look at what passes for everyday family cars in the rest of the world. Here in Canada, the top selling class of vehicle is the compact car, not mid-size - Proteges, Civics, Corollas, Focus, etc. Does the RX-8 have as much passenger room as those cars? YES. In Europe, the average family car is that same size even smaller, often being a small VW Polo etc. Does the RX-8 have more room and accesibility than those vehicles? YES. Completely as an aside, the cars driven by Europeans tend to be much more entertaining and satisfying to drive than what North Americans drive. Somehow, North Americans tend to see driving as a chore. Honda's vehicles are good illustration of this difference - Here, we get the Accord appliance. Perfectly competent car, but very boring. Acura brings over the European Accord and markets it as a sports sedan called the TSX! (and it's smaller than our Accord, too). Toyota provides an even better illustration of the differences - here, the Camry is a top seller, widely admired. In Europe, Camry sales are dismal, and it's at the bottom of it's class. It's universally derided there as being incredibly dull and boring compared to the competition.

Please explain to me why having a family must doom you to a boring car? Would you consider a BMW 3 Series an acceptable family car? Hmm, the RX-8 has more rear seat room than the E36 version... Perhaps you're hung up on the definition of sports car, vs. considering the actual space provided in the back of an RX-8. Maybe if we called it a sports sedan, as it is labelled by some of the automotive publications in the UK, it would be less offensive to you for family duty?

so let's answer the question of CAN the RX be used as an everyday family car? well yes...the real question however, is SHOULD you use it as an everyday family car? the answer is clearly no...

I still can't see how this is so clearly no - why on earth not? It's got as much room as many compact sedans like Civics, Focuses, and the access through the suicide doors is actually OK. So why shouldn't you use it as a family car? Just because it's sporty? That's a reason TO use it... Again, is a 1995 BMW 325i an acceptable family car? How about the 4-door BMW E36 M3? Exact same body and interior room, just sportier. (Less interior room than RX-8, it's worth mentioning again).

the original poster asked how fitting the child safety seat was...well i'm sure it fits but are you gonna want to struggle getting your child or the child seat in and out of the cramped back seat EVERYDAY?

Maybe I'm the wrong person to ask - when my son was born in 1988, our family car was a 1983 Honda Prelude. For the first 4 years of his life, that was our only family car. It's not that bad to be lifting kiddy seats and babies in and out of a coupe - the RX-8 would be much easier than a 2 door Prelude! Oh yeah, the RX-8 has much more room in the back seat than the Prelude did, too ;).

as for the mid-life crisis thing, well all i can say is you have a responsibility to your wife and child to provide for them...getting a sporst car is clearly a choice for yourself...the ideal car for a family is a family car, one that COMFORTABLY seats 4 or more people and has EASY ACCESS to the back seats...a sports car should not take the place of a family car...

I'm not sure who said anything about mid-life crisis - I don't see a lifelong desire for driving interesting cars as having anything to do with the stereotypical mid-life crisis. You have pretty rigid definitions of what qualifies as a family car, but many of us aren't so closed-minded. My wife happens to enjoy driving sporty cars - she refuses to own an automatic transmission equipped car, for example. Of course, she's Irish, and only moved to Canada 7 years ago, so she much prefers the European sense of automobiles, with respect to size, handling, and the predominance of shift-it-yourself transmissions.

Have you actually sat in the back of an RX-8 and determined that it's not comfortable and that it's hard to get into? I sat in one - it's genuinely comfortable, especially for smaller persons, and it is easy to get in and out of. Easier than my father-in-law's Mitsubishi Colt that serves as his family car in Ireland.

I'd agree that a sports car shouldn't take the place of a family car - but there's absolutely no reason why a 4 passenger vehicle that will carry my family as comfortably as many small family cars can't be sporty too, is there???

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by RobDickinson
medcina have a look at
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/Rpts/2003/2002EARelease.pdf

National Center for Statistics & Analysis Major Findings :

2002 Early Assessment The Estimated Number of Persons Motor Vehicle Traffic Crashes Increased to
the Highest Level since 1990.

Occupant Fatalities Accounted for All of the Increase in Total Fatalities.

Most of the Increase in Occupant Fatalities
was in Pickup Trucks,SUVs and Vans.

Most Passenger Vehicle Occupant Fatalities
continue to be Unrestrained.

Alcohol-Related Fatalities Increased.

The Increase in Alcohol-Related Fatalities
was concentrated in Occupants of Vans and
SUVs and Riders of Motorcycles.

SUVs,Vans,and Motorcycles had a larger increase in Alcohol-Involved Drivers than other vehicles.

Passenger Vehicle Occupant Fatalities in Rollover Crashes Increased.

Fatality Increases in SUV and Pickup
Rollovers Accounted for:

Nearly half of the Increase in Total Occupant
Fatalities

Most of the Increase in Passenger Vehicle
Rollover Fatalities.

Passenger Car Occupant Fatalities in Two-
Vehicle Crashes with a Pickup Truck, Van or SUV Increased.

Occupant Fatalities in Pickup Trucks, SUVs and Vans accounted for 59% of the Increase in all Motor Vehicle Occupant Fatalities.
but ?

Fatalities in Passenger Cars were essentially Unchanged.

Most Passenger Vehicle Occupants Killed in Motor Vehicle Crashes Continue to be Unrestrained

Your drunken, unrestrained SUV drivers are killing themselves and other people

More bigger cars isnt your answer. Better cars (not SUV's trucks) and safer driving practices (no alchohol + use seatbelts) is what the US needs.


EDIT : missed this bit :


61% of SUV Occupant Fatalities Continued to Occur in Rollover crashes.
The Next Highest Proportion of Occupant Fatalities in Rollover crashes was 46% in Pickup Trucks


None of this says anything of any real importance. All it says is that the number of fatalities has increased in both car and truck drivers (although the percentage of alcohol related accidents increasing more in truck drivers is a bit disconcerting but proves nothing in respect to SUV safety). This will of course happen as the number of vehicles (especially in the SUV market) on the road increase. Only the ratio of fatalities when comparing trucks to cars is important since that'll give you how likely you are to die in an accident when a car or truck is driven.

Not trying to argue since like I said I too would like to see more people buy cars and not trucks for daily driving. Trucks are exactly that: TRUCKS and should only be used if there is a real need for them.

Gord, the man is just afraid that if everyone drives their family around in their RX-8's, it will make the the RX-8 image look too family and less sporty and they will look "less cool". Kids these days. hahhaah....

Kinda like those SRT-4 kids, worrying that if there are too many regular Neons on the road, everyone will think their car is "just a Neon".

Originally posted by BRx8
good morning, sorry i misssed out on the conversation...

now let's not forget what the original main point of this thread is...it's whether the RX-8 would suffice as your everyday family car...
Can you please quote the portion of the original post that says this will be Wally's everyday family car, because I couldn't find it. I only saw that he needed a car that would accomodate an infant carrier and booster seat, and that he was wondering if the buggy would fit into the boot. Nothing to suggest that this will be their only car. News flash for you folks who do not have children: Just because there is already a family grocery-mobile in the driveway does not mean that a second vehicle does not need to meet certain requirements. It depends on the family. In some families, the possibility of needing to transport the kiddos in the secondary vehicle is remote. In others it is almost a guarantee.

For instance, from July 2002 until the current month, my boys had ridden in my 240SX maybe twice. Since I've returned from deployment, I've been off from work, while my wife has had meetings and such to attend. So, I've been fortunate to be able to spend much more time with my boys. They've spent more time in my car the past two weeks than they had during the previous 10 months. Once I return to work, life will resume as normal, and they won't be seeing the back of that car very much, if at all.

This is a perfect of example of the sort of thing that happens with families and cars, and why a second vehicle might need to meet certain passenger requirements. Even if you don't plan on using the extra seats much, some families find it prudent to purchase a vehicle that will accomodate the family if needed. And the ones that don't - hey, that's great, too. Just means that if they get in a bind, handing off the kids will also require swapping cars - not that big of a deal. Even it is to be the family's primary vehicle - so what? If the trunk won't hold all the groceries, then I guess he can do the shopping solo and use the back seats to supplement the boot.

Originally posted by Smoker
Gord, the man is just afraid that if everyone drives their family around in their RX-8's, it will make the the RX-8 image look too family and less sporty and they will look "less cool". Kids these days. hahhaah....

Smoker, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. We have seen many discussions here that intimate this very idea - what the RX-8 should be/should not be/is/is not. There are some who cling so desparately to the boy-racer image of themselves owning this car, that the thought of families and children riding in this car cheapens it for them. I say 'get a life.'

The RX-8 should NOT be used as a primary family vehicle...

What a load of shite. I am 33 and have two sons, aged 1 and 3.5. My wife hates automatic trannys, as do I. For 10 months, our only car has been a 1988 Porsche 911. It has 4 seats, and we purchased car seats to fit in the tight back quarters. My wife goes grocery shopping in the 911 and puts the bags in the trunk and on the passenger seat. We don't carry strollers (obviously). My family (parents and siblings) think we're nuts--the same way some of you naysayers are coming down on people who have families and intend on using the RX-8 to transport their families REGULARLY.

What do I say to them AND YOU? "Who cares what you think!" And "What arrogance you possess to think that you can influence me and my wife with your opinions!"

We can afford any family sedan we wish (Audi S4 and M5 included), but for now, we are all having so much fun in the 911 we don't care about the (minor) inconveniences. We're not lazy people; we're fit and energetic.

The RX-8 offers a perfect blend of everyday practicality, power, and style. Don't beat people up just because they place a higher priority on one particular aspect of that balance. You only make yourself look very foolish. You know who you are...

Originally posted by Midnight Flyer
Hi Gord,

Just wondering, you planning on getting rid of your Miata to get the 8? or is it replacing one of your other cars?


The Miata is a keeper! :D The 8 is going to replace my wife's 97 Contour SE, and then for full family+dog+cargo duty we have the Audi allroad. All manual transmissions, and all chosen because they offered manual transmissions and were at the sportier end of vehicles in their classes when they were chosen. In late 96, between a V6, 5 speed Contour with sport suspension, or automatic Accord, automatic Camry, etc, it was a clear choice for us, even though the back seat is a bit smaller than the others.

B-Nez nailed it on a couple of points - there's plenty of occasions where either of the non-Miatas in our stable is called into family duty, so the Contour or it's replacement must be capable of hauling us all and doing reasonable grocery duty. He certainly raises an interesting point in suggesting that it's ego causing the young child-less ones to complain about an RX-8 being used for family duty - oh the humiliation, driving a family car!! :D

I'm still waiting to hear from GoldenHue about the 94 Bonneville vs. 04 RX-8 safety considerations, and regarding the relative weights of RX-8 vs. Focus, Accord, Camry, Altima, and the other much safer ;) family cars that B-Nez mentioned...

Regards,
Gordon

I agree..... with do what YOU want with the car, that is HOW mazda designed it!

I would get a Miata or an S2000 or something of that sort, but I feel it would be usefull to have some room for groceries or things.

My g/f said, we can't get a Miata it doesn't have back seats. My reply "Dear..... how many times have we used the backseats in our current car?" Her answer: "ummmm......... 2 or 3 times?" My Question: "And when was this?" Her answer... "When my parents came to visit."

AHA! Great, so when her parents came to visit we used the seats 2 or 3 times! Wow! How did they come to visit? In their 4 door Sonata! Heck we would just take their car instead then HAHAHA. She agreed and we were off to look at the miata :)

The tough thing is the trunk is not big enough for groceries in the Miata :( I would need another car or do groceries myself. The RX-8 Solves this for me, I don't car if the trunk is small ish, because it also has backseats so I can put stuff there.

Do what YOU want with the car, and have FUN!

wow...i didn't expect to hit such a soft spot...some of you are taking this way too seriously...and Gord knows i'm only trying to have a debate, but really, if you don't have anything intelligent to add to the debate, then you're basically just flaming and spamming...shame on you :eek:

anyways, the thread starter asked for an opinion and i'm expressing mine, i'm not telling/forcing anyone to even listen to me...i drive a sports car, i've ridden in the backseat many many cars and MY OPINION HOLDS that it's just better to get a car designed for easy access to the comfortable backseats...i've sat in the back of the Eclipse and the Prelude and unfortunately they suck...seriously, they do...and while the RX does offer more leg room than those cars, it still really isn't sufficient enough to drive for long distances without legs cramping up...

but anyways, i do sincerely apologize to all those that i have offended so deeply...i really hope your wounds heal and your sorrows go away when you recieve your RX-8s in 2 months...

I'm palying it safe. Got my wife an X5 and gave myself the RX8. I have a three month old. We'll use the X5 to transport the baby most of the time, but it is nice to be able to transport her on the RX-8 if you have to.

1. Can the rear seats REALLY accomodate child safety seats? I know they're LATCH compatible, but is there enough room to pull an infant carrier in and out? Or put a toddler into a booster seat?

2. Do the front seat belts attach to the pseudo-B-pillar on the rear door (as on the Honda Element) or are they seat mounted? (as on a car that's been designed sensibly) Opening the front AND rear door to let Little Johnny jump in when I pick him up will be enough trouble.

3. Is this car worth getting with an automatic tranny? With the engine putting out only 210 HP instead of 250 HP, will performance suffer dramatically? (I know peak torque is actually higher in the ATX, but I don't know how the curves compare.)

4. Is the trunk large enough to fit a child's stroller? We've got one of those heavy-duty travel system strollers for now. Until Little Johnny's a little older I've gotta be able to lug that thing around with him.


Wally Llama,

I'll make this easier for you (if you're still reading this thread). Get the RX-8 as an auto. That would mean one less thing to worry about when yelling at your kid. The RX-8 is not a pure sports car. Its a well rounded car as many had stated already to exhaustion. As for safety issues when it comes to car accidents or should I say incidents(incidents sounds better to me), no car is reallly safe especially when there is some dumbass driving drunk at 100+ MPH. Mass and/or size does help with safety - otherwise known as crumple zone. The more of the car that gets crushed the more force is being absorbed(less force making your body fly all over inside the car, look ma no whiplash). Hopefully if ever in an accident your car doesn't get crushed too much or say bye bye to legs. I myself don't like huge cars, hard to avoid to objects or move away from incoming objects. Besides drinks gas as much a fish drinks water. Since you're way older than me you should already know that you should always be aware of your environment especially around fast moving objects (i.e. other cars)

You want the RX-8 then get it. But try to imagine what will happen when some teenager thats drunk or high on something coming your way at high speeds. If the incident isn't avoidable I'd go for something big enough to absorb as much force as possible without injuring you and your family. If it can easily be avoidable then by all means get the RX-8. Just as Gord96BRG says live your life but have safety in mind.

And to whomever made that comment about that there are more US drivers not wearing their seatbelts compared to the UK. The only reason that is true is because the US population is (I don't have a definite estimate, so sue me) something like 100 times that of the UK. You have to think of it proportionally. Of course there are going to be more US drivers not wearing their seat belts compared to the UK. I'm just trying to set some facts straight, not trying to be an ass. But I guess I was to be born to be like one, hehe.

Y&Y signing off.


Damn it someone get this monkey off my LEG!!!

BTW, if you don't mind me asking: who is your father and how is he "corporate Mazda"? Inquiring minds want to know?




I don't mean my father IS corporate Mazda, but rather a part of corporate Mazda. I am not sure of his official title(I honestly have never asked) but he heads up the DC area district on the east coast. A few months back he was in Vegas for some Mazda meeting there, they stayed at the Bellagio although I didn't ask him for the details of the meeting there. Most of the main meetings for him take place in New Jersey. He occasionally travels to California or New York, and has been to Japan a few times (which he told us has small accommodations).
All I know is that he has worked for Mazda ever since I was little, and Mazda was all I drove until I moved out. Growing up we had mazda mugs, mazda shirts, hats, keychains, and all sorts of logo stuff. When I mentioned buying a bmw to him last year he told me I should hold out for th RX-8 's release, that it would be worth the wait. He has brought home just about every vehcile Mazda has had at some time. And owns all Mazda's as well. As as I told you before...his favorite is his Mazda RX-7 twin turbo which none us can drive.
I desperately wanted a white RX-8 and bugged the poor man to death about trying to get me one, but there was no way to get one here. White is not an option for USA production. He even sent me the chain of mail that shows the responses from various other Mazda heads replying to his inquiry into getting one for his daughter. The responses were all the same, its not an available option here,and the ones that are being produced overseas have the driver seat on the opposite side. So.....no white for me. If the demand is high they will make it an option later but I don't want to wait. :(

This is one of the best topics I've read in months...

First my hat is off to Gordon for so eloquently and passionately stating his case - as a new father (2 weeks now) I completely agree with every point he and HalleysComet makes.

Mazda DESIGNED this car to be a family friendly sports car - it even says so in ALL of their marketing materials. If, in the real world, real families find it unusable then it will not sell very well and I am sure Mazda cannot afford that.

For me, personally, I wanted a 2 seat convertible before we knew we were having a baby. Now we already have a 'safe' SUV (Acura MDX) for hauling our dogs and shopping etc, so according to some people here I should have got the S2000 I wanted (a dedicated sports car). However my wife and I agreed that our 2nd car needs to have 4 seats (and preferably 4 doors) for those rare occasions when the first vehicle might be unavailable - and the RX-8 was tailor made for my needs. (But you can bet a roadster will be chosen if we can ever afford a third car - perhaps a '94 Miata)

Between the RX-8 and the MDX I feel bad that my little princess will be traveling in the less safe vehicle most of the time. Although the MDX is one of the safest SUVs around (top honours along with BMW X5 and of course the new Volvo XC90) it will be much harder to avoid an accident in it as braking takes 30%+ longer and handling is much worse. Of course when metal meets metal (i.e. if an accident couldn't be avoided) then the MDX will do its duty.

Having just installed an infant base and carrier into my IS300 the day before the Rev-It-Up event (where I spent 20 mins in an RX-8) I believe that the RX-8 will be easier to install the seat in and remove than a small sedan thanks to the suicide doors. Get a base that has recline adjustment like the Graco Snugride (see JSG's comment in another thread).

Finally a comment on rollover deaths and statistics. Yes, SUVs and trucks have a higher % of rollover fatalities than passenger cars. What the numbers mentioned here don't say is that the vast majority of those rollvover fatalities are for people not wearing seatbelts (over 50% edit - should have said 25% of drivers - not passengers - in the USA do not wear seatbelts and the police don't usually stop you for this infraction, unlike in the UK etc).
Also percentages can be misleading. As an grossly exaggerated example:
Say 60% of SUV deaths are caused by rollover, compared to 30% for cars - it would appear the SUVS are worse of course.
However lets say that for ALL accidents (inc. rollover) SUVs have 20 deaths and cars have 100 - that means not only are cars vastly less safe overall but that even for rollovers there were only 12 deaths in SUVs againt 30 in cars - suddenly 60% vs 30% doesn't show the whole picture does it? This is a grossly exaggerated example to show the problem with percentages instead of hard numbers - BTW I just made the numbers up - they are not real so do not flame me for them.

Editied to correct percentage of people in USA not wearing seatbelts from 50% to 25%.

Originally posted by pelucidor
(over 50% of drivers - not passengers - in the USA do not wear seatbelts and the police don't usually stop you for this infraction, unlike in the UK etc).

are you kidding?? i mean, i know you're not kidding, but that's crazy...
it's once in 5 blue moons that i ever spot ANYONE not wearing a seatbelt in Canada, and the cops will ALWAYS pull you over if you're not wearing your seatbelt and they catch you... you dont' have to be doing anything else: just not being able to see the seatbelt over your shoulder is enough...

really?? more than half??? insane.

well this is off topic, but seat belt usage is pretty low in the US as a whole...some states like California do enforce it to the fullest and seeing someone not wearing their safety belts is rare...but in Illinois, i'd say that maybe half the drivers don't wear them...it's the law but it isn't strictly enforced...

but yea, more than half the people seems a little over-bloated...

My 50% number is out of date - I read that when I first moved to the USA about 6 years ago. It has improved vastly since then so that only 25% don't wear a belt in the USA (compared to 8% or less in other industrialized nations like Canada). See here http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0301/31/m02a.html for more info.

And to whomever made that comment about that there are more US drivers not wearing their seatbelts compared to the UK. The only reason that is true is because the US population is (I don't have a definite estimate, so sue me) something like 100 times that of the UK. You have to think of it proportionally. Of course there are going to be more US drivers not wearing their seat belts compared to the UK. I'm just trying to set some facts straight, not trying to be an ass. But I guess I was to be born to be like one, hehe.


Very bad estimate of populations: UK = 59.1M, USA = 272.6M so ratio is less than 5:1 not 100:1. See http://www.photius.com/wfb1999/rankings/population_0.html

My theory is that there are a lot of older people in the USA (say above 50 years old) who drove cars without seatbelts when they were much younger (in 1960's and earlier) and never got into the habit. In most other less affluent countries (like UK) most people couldn't afford cars when they were very young and by the time they could afford a vehicle they all came with seatbelts so they got used to wearing them.

That and of course the fact that you WILL be ticketed immediately by any cop in the UK for not wearing one, whereas in the USA you cannot be stopped purely for this infraction by the police (secondary offence meaning you must be pulled over for some other offence first).

rubbish! the cops in the Uk are as useless as those in the US. Driving in the UK with its spead limit of 70 mph (with most doing 90mph) should be alot more fun the speed limit of 55 mph (with most doing 55mph) in the US.

Bottom line...we're going to go faster!

Originally posted by ed hall
the speed limit of 55 mph (with most doing 55mph) in the US.

Bottom line...we're going to go faster!

ahahaha... have you ever driven in the US?? it's like a limit of 55-60 with EVERYONE (especially those POS suv's) going +80mph wherever they can...

Whenever I'm back in London I always drive the speed limit +5mph because I don't know where the thousands of cameras are anymore. My friend who is a police sergeant in the Met says that tickets for seatbelts and talking on the cellphone are the easiest ones to give out.

In the USA there are no cameras - on highways I do around 80-90 like most people (where traffic/conditions permit) and get overtaken all the time. If a cop stops me I can usually talk my way out of it (have done many times, e.g. 90 in a 55) - you can't argue with a camera.

Wow, I've been at work all day and I get back and find 3 extra pages of this thread. I wish I had the desire to pick apart some comments but I don't think I'll change anyone's mind. My first post about not being able to change car classes is straight from the government web page that I listed. It is not my opinion, however fact from the government agency. Secondly, what I'm disappointed on is the fact that everybody keeps saying that, "I want to have fun driving a car". "Why should I have to loathe the car I drive." " My daughter loves my car." "I want to experience living and weight my risks." Oh what bologna! That has nothing to do with this discussion at all and I just wish that you all would leave it at the door. Third, rollover accidents in SUV increased because #1 they weren't wearing seat belts (as already stated) and because the people driving the car were going too fast around turns because they didn't know how to drive. The SUV';s didn't get into a head on collision and then rollover my friends. I don't like SUV's at all. However, am just stating that they are MUCH safer than the majority of sedans ...let along the RX-8. For anyone to argue that is so hard-headed and biased, it just isn't worth mentioning. I'm done with this topic you all know my opinion. I want the *8* just as much as the next person and I hope I get as much enjoyment out of it as Gordon. As to NOSTATIC, you just showed your ignorance, that was the worst post I've seen in a long time. Your rant again has nothing to do with anything and you ARE nuts to use your 1988 Porsche as your everyday car. Again, people like NOSTATIC are just being very selfish to their children, so they can have more 'fun' driving their kids around in a deathtrap.

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
I don't like SUV's at all. However, am just stating that they are MUCH safer than the majority of sedans ...let along the RX-8. For anyone to argue that is so hard-headed and biased, it just isn't worth mentioning. I'm done with this topic you all know my opinion.

How convenient. YOU were arguing the case about safety of the RX-8 vs. family sedans, NOT vs. SUVs. YOU asked for specific facts for debate, not just flaming. We gave you that, countered your arguments with specific facts. You were asked to respond to specific points, and now you just want to gloss over the fact that your opinion is without any factual basis and pretend that now it's SUVs that are far safer??? After it's pointed out to you that family sedans are not necessarily any safer, and often less safe, than the RX-8, you're going to completely abandon your whole position and whine about US being hard-headed??? And you asked ME to respond fairly without flaming???

What a cowardly response! Your position gets punctured, so you run and hide, rather than participating in the discussion and possibly learning something. I hinted earlier in this thread that you did the exact same thing in the previous thread about RX-8 suitability for family use - you imply that it's far less safe than sedans, and when you're hit with a few questions and counters, you disappear and hide, only to resurface spouting the same old pap and drivel that is entirely without basis, trying to twist some irrelevant government statistics to prove how selfish we are to endanger our children in an RX-8.

You, sir, are an incredible coward and a loser. Time for you to grow up yourself, don't you think? I suggest that you deserve any and all flames directed your way at this point. If you want to participate in the discussion and answer the questions that were directed at you specifically as counters to points you made, then I'd be happy to continue to participate. However, you'll have to abandon the snivelling and cowardly whining for any meaningful discussion to continue. Open your mind - you might actually learn something. Don't be so afraid that you might be wrong!!!!

Regards,
Gordon

Golden,

Just give us all a break already! By your logic, we should all just get rid of our cars altogether and just shuttle our families around in public transportation buses. Those are nice, big, and safe aren't they? :rolleyes:

Here are the facts:

1. The RX-8 was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED by its engineers to carry 4 passengers.

2. The safety features of the RX-8 take into consideration the fact that it seats four passengers.

3. The additional weight and structural design of the RX-8 is only necessary to accomodate and protect four passengers, otherwise the wheelbase would have been shorter, there would have only been two seats, and it would have been called the RX-7.

4. YOU are the one being selfish because you don't want to share this car with people that actually want to use it for what it was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for....carrying up to four passengers SAFELY.

You see, it's not a matter of us being selfish despite our children, it's actually quite the contrary. A lot of us have actually chosen the RX-8 based on thoughtfulness and consideration for our families and friends. You just have such a narrow-minded, idealistic (although misguided) view of what this car is and who the owners should be, that you refuse to accept that the RX-8 is a perfectly reasonable, capable, and logical means of transporting four individuals safely, when, say it with me, it was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED, to safely carry them.

I won't be transporting my wife and kids in the RX-8 on a daily basis, but I sure as heck will (without any guilt whatsoever) whenever I need to, or just want to take them for a fun SAFE ride in something other than the family minivan, because imagine that.....that's what it was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for!

:cool:

Holy smokes! I sure wasn't expecting 4 pages of discussion on this question in less than 24 hours! Especially for my first post ever on this board....Thanks so much for all your feedback!

Here are a few random comments based on what I've read above:

First, I'll admit that our family already has a primary kiddie hauler - a GMC Envoy. (My wife drives it) Several posters made the point that just because a family has one kiddie hauler doesn't mean that car #2 doesn't have to be CAPABLE of hauling kids. My wife and I want to know that if she's stuck at work late, I can pick the baby up from day care.

Second, (based on #1) I agree with most posters that the RX-8 is not a good vehicle for a primary/only family car. Not to say that it wouldn't work, but there's a reason that the Camry, Taurus and Accord all sell 300,000 - 400,000 per year. (Hint: it's not because of their road-hugging abilities....)

Third, 100% of my family wears seat belts.

Fourth, while I agree that an SUV is generally safer than a small car in a collision, I'm not sure that an SUV is safer overall. Our Envoy sure is a sturdy vehicle, but it handles like crap. The tires look like pillows and the suspension is so compliant that cornering, braking and accellerating remind me of my childhood days spent on those springy hamburger-faced devices in the Playland at McDonald's. OCcasionally the phrase 'Weebles wobble but they won't fall down" comes to mind. Basically, my concern is with the ability to AVOID an accident in an SUV vs. a samll car. My Envoy gives me very little confidence that I could safely perform a high-speed lane change maneuver in order to avoid something in front of me. From this perspective, I think the small car is a safer vehicle.

I am one of those guys who are buying this car because I want a sportier car than my current (boring) Millenia, without losing the capability of taking my wife and 2-year old daughter somewhere with me if need be.

I do not plan on my RX-8 being our main kid-hauler. We'll use my wife's 4-Runner for that. I only have to drive about 2 miles one way per day with my daughter in my car with me to get her to the daycare. That is all at speeds of below 45 mph (in town), so I'm not as worried about the safety concerns of a high-speed collision with her in the car. I then drive about 30 miles round trip per day to work and back. Why the hell would I want to buy another sedan or big SUV just to have the convenience of easily getting her in and out of her car seat for 2 miles out of my 32 mile trip per day? Screw that.....I want to have fun driving those other child-free 30 miles per day in a more exciting car.

Those of you are flaming those of us with families for buying this car need to understand that just because we ask about child safety seats and how they fit in the back seat, does not mean that we will constantly be trying to haul around the wife and 3 kids in the back. If that were our situations, we would most likely not even be considering this car as even a secondary vehicle.

Just because you have a child does not mean that you are sentenced to 18 years of driving some boring family car.

I agree with Wally Llama....safety is more about overall control a driver has over their vehicle than size, weight, and how well it does in a crash test. If I had the same 2 impending accident situations in front of me and I could pick between avoiding them with the RX-8 or the 4-Runner, I would definitely pick the RX-8. The 4-Runner would most likely be involved in the accident, while the RX-8 would be swerving gracefully around it or stopping quick enough to avoid it.

Gordon you are an idiot. You are so stubborn and biased.

1) I don't want to argue this anymore because people like you are so biased you will never change your mind. Therefore my time to respond to ignorant comments are over. It's funny, people are STILL saying that they don't want to drive around in something not fun to drive. As I said before...selfish and has nothing to do with the conversation here.

2) I'm not changing my arguement you idiot. Can you not understand English. People were getting on SUV's and saying that they weren't safe. I was just saying that they were wrong. SUV's rollover via going too fast around turns. In a head on collision the SUV will still be standing and your sports car will be cream cheese with a deflated airbag.

3) You said this idiotic statement, After it's pointed out to you that family sedans are not necessarily any safer, and often less safe Really? Where has anyone pointed out the sedans are less safe? If you are talking about the SUV's I already torn that arguement up. Get me the stats that show me % of deaths in sports/sedan/SUV PER 1000 VEHICLES. If sports cars come out on top I'll effing buy your you *8*. Enlighten me.
You want to prove your point get me that stat, I dare you.

4) My point has always been the the *8* should not be used as a primary family car. I NEVER said that under no circumstances should anyone sit in the backseats of a moving *8*. The majority of people have said that they WON'T use it as a primary car, but use it sometimes to drive around their families. Fine. I have NO problem with that. But you don't see that. They say that but don't come out and say that it should NOT be used as a primary family car. I have the balls to say it. Hmmm, guess what their primary family car is...a sedan or SUV you dilweed.

5) I got you the OFFICIAL reason why you can't compare safety ratings between classes from a governmental source and I have GORDON here saying no that is wrong. Hmmm, I'm wrong and they are wrong huh. Gordon is always right? Biased? Hard-headed? Closed-minded? Stubborn? All of the above.

6) Ok as if you can't figure out the obvious, common sense things on your own I'll practically spell it out for you. Weight is not the ONLY reason why you can't compare cars of other classses. Space is another reason you jag. What the hell is the difference between a sports car and a sedan and a mini-van or SUV? Weight but even more so, is SPACE. I thought you could figure that one out on your own. The more space inside the car you have, the larger force the collision must have to damage the passengers inside the car. Simple physics. Are you going to make fun of that too? Where you one of those book smart people? Those people that got A's in school becuase they could memorize a textbook, however were complete idiots if there wasn't a rule or a law for an equation?

7) ALL accidents are avoidable huh? As long as the car handles well and the driver is knowledgable about driving, all accidents are avoidable. Isn't that what you said? Go tell that to any Nascar driver that lost his life. Go tell that to anyone driving an RX-7, or Porsche or Lotus or Corvette or Ferrari (et al) that lost their lives. Since these cars have great handling and speed and have the ability to get out of ANY situation...are you saying that everyone of those drivers didn't know how to drive? Or are you saying that they wanted to die? So then it's suicide? Oh sorry, I forgot. Gordon is the best driver in the world. He is invincible. That statement by you is the most ludacris comment I've ever read.

8) I'm done with you Gordon. Your name calling is immature and your unwillingness to STOP repeating the same ol' thing is absurd. I've explained myself over and over and over again and your responses are sublime. It's like you just respond without reading. You are in the minority here. MOSt people won't use the *8* as their PRIMARY car. That is all that I have argued since day one on the premise that they aren't as safe as sedans and SUV's. There is one way for you to win this arguement...get me those damn numbers that show PER VEHICLE, the % of deaths between the car classes and show me the the sports cars have a lower death toll....ACTAULLY, I just did a quick search and came up with something interesting take a look at the following website.

http://gulliver.trb.org/publications/reports/carlabel.pdf

I especially find the following interesting:

- page 1, paragraph 4: "When deciding which type of new car to buy, consumers would benefit from information about safetydifferences across various classes of cars. For example. new-car buyers today can't compare the safety ofa mid-sized car to a sport-utility vehicle. Existing crash test results can be compared only among vehiclesof similar size and weight. Information about vehicle safety "is not always timely, accessible, or in aform that readily supports comparison shopping," the report notes."

- page 2, paragraph 6: "Stress the importance of vehicle size and weight."All else being equal," the report notes, "big andheavy cars offer more protection to their occupants than small and light cars" during a crash. The probability of a fatality, when averaged over all types of crashes, is 2 to 3 times greater for the driver of'a lighter car than for a driver of a heavier car. Consumers need explicit information about the importanceof vehicle size and weight, and they should fully understand the benefits and proper use of safety featuressuch as restraint systems."

And in case you didn't believe here is another website to check out:

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide/cheapinsure.asp?prodtype=auto

The following is an excerpt from this webpage:

"And size does matter. Small cars have twice as many occupant deaths each year as large cars," Rader says. Heavier cars usually will give passengers a better chance of surviving a wreck. That's because a larger car provides a longer crush zone to absorb the crash," he says. "The weight protects you in a two-vehicle crash because the heavier vehicle drives the lighter one backward, which means the crash is focused on the smaller car."

Argue with that jack. Now you quit your whining and name calling. You defense is pathetic and selfish. You obviously don't know the meaning of the word (selfish). Take some reading comprehension classes and you wouldn't get yourself in this situation. I'm done responding to this thread UNLESS you find me those numbers asked for.

Without regards,
Goldenhue22

Alright, this thread is going around in circles, nothing new is being said, and now people are getting pissy instead of debating. I think we're done...

---jps