Debacle In Detroit [Archive]

rotarygod

11-20-2004, 04:53 PM

Artest should be suspended for the year in my opinion.
Did you even see it? Artest fouled one of the Pistons (forgot his name). It wasn't even a very bad foul. It happens. He in turn got severly pushed. Instead of fighting back, he went and lied down on the announcers table. Strange place but oh well. While he was lying there not doing any thing to anyone, a fan threw a drink and a bottle at him from point blank range. He saw the person who did it and charged him. I'd have done the same thing. Screw that guy! I hope HE gets sued. Other players jumped in the hold him back and then other fans got involved throwing punches and other players got involved and fought back. Fans were throwing drinks and food at the players and on the court and a couple of chairs flew. The way I see it Detroit and it's fans are to blame. I'd fight back too. Screw Detroit. They F'ed up.

Rob Tomlin

11-20-2004, 05:08 PM

Those videos don't work for me, anyone know where i can watch it?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/3935695/detail.html

Rob Tomlin

11-20-2004, 05:12 PM

Did you even see it? Artest fouled one of the Pistons (forgot his name). It wasn't even a very bad foul. It happens. He in turn got severly pushed. Instead of fighting back, he went and lied down on the announcers table. Strange place but oh well. While he was lying there not doing any thing to anyone, a fan threw a drink and a bottle at him from point blank range. He saw the person who did it and charged him. I'd have done the same thing. Screw that guy! I hope HE gets sued. Other players jumped in the hold him back and then other fans got involved throwing punches and other players got involved and fought back. Fans were throwing drinks and food at the players and on the court and a couple of chairs flew. The way I see it Detroit and it's fans are to blame. I'd fight back too. Screw Detroit. They F'ed up.

I agree to a large extent. Pistons fans were out of control.

Yet, the league has to put some type of ultimatum on the players to keep things like this from happening. That's why you don't go into the stands as a player. Period. Things can only get worse once players go into the stands after fans. Yes, this is asking for an amazing amount of self control under these circumstances, but I think that's what is needed.

rev-2-9k

11-20-2004, 05:34 PM

First it is the fault of the fans, 2nd it is the fault of the officials failing to control the game, third it is Ben Wallace's fault for reacting badly to a minor foul, the Pacers are to blame as well but they were assaulted first. If this continues to happen then we can blame the NBA. Pistons fans have always been over the top.

shigginsrx8

11-20-2004, 05:46 PM

The whole NBA is a joke. Yes, I am bitter :p

rotarygod

11-20-2004, 06:35 PM

Rob Tomlin

11-20-2004, 07:01 PM

I do agree that he shouldn't have run into the stands. Then again, in the same situation, I can't say I wouldn't either. Wallace had no right to shove Artest like he did and he should be fined or suspended for it. Had that fan not have pegged Artest, there probably wouldn't have been a scuffle with the fans at all. Many of them didn't see why he went after that fan and they also started pelting him for it. The initial scuffle was all Ben Wallace. The fight with the fans was started by a fan. I really can't fault the Pacers. Maybe they could have restrained themselves instead of retalitate but then again, would you just turn the other cheek when someone threw something at you? I wouldn't.

Like I said in my earlier post, yes, this is asking for a tremendous amount of restraint and self control from the players. But yes, this is what is necessary under these circumstances.

As far as "turning the other cheek", that's pretty much what the NBA is demanding, and I don't necessarily think it is wrong. Not exactly fair maybe, but they have to draw the line somewhere. Going into the stands is that line. Both for the fans protection, as well as the players.

rotarygod

11-20-2004, 07:09 PM

I guess when you are getting paid thousands and thousands of dollars per game, you can probably be expected to control yourself a little better.

Hornet

11-20-2004, 07:54 PM

I agree with the statement that everyone is at fault but I believe some are more at fault than others. Ben Wallace was probably mad already cause they were getting spanked at that point (kinda backing up Artests claim from last year if you ask me) and he reacted violently partially out of frustration. When they had Artest seperated and he was laying on the table probably trying to collect himself he gets hit with a bottle or cup. Just because a person is a public figure DOES NOT give anybody the right to throw items at them (IMO it should constitute assault). That item could have easily hit Ron Artest in the eye causing potentially permanent damage. I mostly blame the fans and security for the incident. Artest and Jackson were wrong for going into the crowd that way but I don't know if I could have kept my cool under that situation either. I read an article somewhere in which they talked to the guy Artest got a hold of and he basically said Artest had him pinned yelling "did you do it?". I'm not a Pacers or Pistons fan but I hope they take into consideration that these players deserve the same consideration as anyone walking the street. If you can walk the street and not be hit with items then you should be able to play an organized game and not be hit with items! Truly a terrible incident regardless of who was more at fault!

Immi

11-20-2004, 10:43 PM

rev-2-9k

11-20-2004, 11:24 PM

I have been an NBA fan since I was a child. This summer the olympics were the last straw. Out of the two teams in the playoffs none of these millionairs can take the time to support their country. I refuse to watch any NBA games until this current generation of losers leaves. I am bitter because my favorite sport has been ruined. This fight is another example of why I don't watch. Kobe Bryant ..... Allen Iverson ....

I think they need to follow the NFL and not hire out of high school. To much money no resposibility.

Zaku-8

11-21-2004, 01:23 AM

i think the nba is on to something here... what game the entire year has drawn this much attention.

Napboy

11-21-2004, 01:42 AM

Visa

11-21-2004, 01:45 AM

ron artest is the nba asshole...

THANK YOU

I like how you you base your entire argument on opinions and guesses... While Artest is a douchebag, he wasn't the instigator in the melee.

Judging by your reaction, I don't think you would have behaved any better than Artest if you would have had a beer thrown in your face.

Those fans got what they deserved but like they said on ESPN post-fight, the real losers are the kids that witnessed this aboration.

rx8group

11-21-2004, 02:27 AM

Trading Artest was the best thing the Bull's ever did! I can't say that it was totally his fault as I probably would have gone after that asshole too! But, then again, there are rules that need to be followed for players. You don't enter the stands no matter what.

Reminds me of the Cubs game when the dodgers got pissed about a stupid baseball cap!

Aoshi Shinomori

11-21-2004, 02:44 AM

IZoomZoomI

11-21-2004, 02:58 AM

if a fan approached the court then I would retaliate, in self defense who knows what they have. But going up to the stands c'mon... no one is threatening your livelihood. You're on the clock, under survelience of millions of people you should definetly turn the cheek. Not supporting the fans, but don't think the pacers were right either.

rotarygod

11-21-2004, 04:00 AM

Aw man, I've actually been defending Artest but I found out tonight that the fan he went after, was the wrong fan! He went after an innocent guy. There's going to be some big lawsuits over that one.

tadams

11-21-2004, 04:05 AM

ron artest is the nba asshole, david stern should kick him out of the league thus giving him time to promote his new gangsta rap album (OMG LOL)...

things aside.. i think many of you fail to understand how inconsiderate artest is - he is the nba asshole, the guy everyone hates, his history is full of mishaps and i blame this incident on him

this is why:

ben wallace's brother died a week ago, artest being the fucking asshole he is was probably getting into ben's face about the whole issue and finally after awhile it got to ben wallce.. the stupid pointless foul on wallace made him erupt

THIS WHOLE ISSUE WAS RON ARTEST'S FAULT - PERIOD

fans.. fans are gonna side with their players anywhere.. not just in detriot everywhere.. stuff is thrown on ice, court, fields at any game and there point is to aim at players... when has a fan actually aim for the 'centre of the court' lol

anyways.. continuing on... something hit artest.. he decided to completely over react go nuts didn't give a rats ass who he hit... he just found the closest innocent individual WITH a cup in his hands.. and beat the shit out of him

i hope ron artest is sued for all his rap money (the whole $5)... jermaine oneal and stephen jackson started swinging away at anyone..

you have to remember fans stick together.. so if a fan is being pummeled by a player.. people (like the people that fan came with) will step in and help ..players should be treated no differently from the fans

i dont give a fuck what any of you say....

ron artest is a sore loser, a fucking clown who should continue on with his r&b career and ben wallace should flash his nba ring infront of the pacer bench everytime they play eachother

predictions:
Ben Wallace: 5 games
Jermaine O'neal: 20 games
Stephen Jackson: 25 games
Ron Artest: BAN THIS BITCH

THANK YOU

Immi,

I agree with a lot of what you say. Everyone seems to think that Artest didn't do anything wrong and that he was somehow defending himself. This is BS. WHere I think Artest was especially being a prick was when he layed on the scorer's table...he wasn't "doing nothing"....he was being an a-hole with that gesture....if you are going to walk away from a fight, the right way to do it is to walk to your sideline, stay away from the other person,etc. ....you don't start showboating and acting in a "I'm relaxed, you can't do anything to me" attitude.....he was mocking Wallace.

And when I watched the tape, I saw absolutely no reason for Artest and Jackson to sock that fan. Yeah, the guy ran up to him an yelled at him. Does yelling at someone give them the right to sock you? Artest and Jackson are huge men compared to this guy. Did he deserve it? Maybe....but if he did, then EVERY fan that ever yells at the opposing team deserves to be pummelled by the players they are yelling at.

And being a law enforcement officer, I look at what Artest did as a completely disrespectful thing to do to his teammates. He put their safety in jeopardy and placed them in an awkward, dangerous dilemma....do I help my teammate while he is inciting a riot? Do I help him take on thousands of angry fans? Do I help him and possibly get punished financially, career-wise, or legally?...........Or do I stay out of it and be labeled a "coward" amongst my teammates?

I would NEVER put my partners in a situation like that, nor would I ever expect them to do that to me.

Artest is just a worthless, wannabe "thug" who only cares about himself and his image. I work in a prison and there are a lot of criminals with wasted talent (artists, athletes, etc). I don't see any reason why he shouldn't join them in here.

Basically, Artest is to blame 90% for this whole incident. He committed the foul, he mocked Wallace, he jumped into the stands, he assaulted more than one person....what else is left?

Wallace, reacted to a foul. He overreacted like many players do when fouled. Just because his shove was the first aggressive act doesn't mean he is to blame. His aggressive act had absolutely nothing to do with what happened afterwards. The fan threw the beer at Artest because Artest was showboating and being an a-hole.

Bottom line is if Artest had just walked away like a man (or even apologized or made an apologetic gesture), this would not have happened. Or if he wanted to stay "gangster" about it, he could have just kept it one-on-one with Wallace.

Rob Tomlin

11-21-2004, 09:49 AM

I find it interesting how everyone is trying to place blame on a certain person. The truth is that there is plenty of blame to be spread around.

If you really want to blame a single individual, it would have to be Ben Wallace. If he didn't over react to the foul by Artest by pushing the crap out of him, none of this ever would have happened. Why would I place more blame on Wallace than Artest? Because fouls are part of the game. Over reacting by pushing the crap out of someone after the whistle has blown isn't.

Hornet

11-21-2004, 10:20 AM

Riiiiight....Artest was mocking him by laying down! Yeah, how does this sound? My dog was laying down so I swatted him for acting aggressively! Backwards isnt it? If Artest was not TRYING to do the right thing he would have been swinging while he was on the court. That is the way he is. From what a friend told me Ben Wallace commited a hard foul on Artest earlier in the game but reacted badly when he was fouled hard. Again if it was all Artest, why does Wallace actually want to apologize to Artest (because he shares a large part of the blame)? Another thing to note is some of you apparently didn't watch it because the first player to throw a punch in the stands was Stephen Jackson! Yes Artest threw punches later and yes he pinned the first guy. Should he get the majority of the blame? No, the fans (most of them fall into the wannabe thug category too) should get a hefty part of the blame. A funny thing was said here, "Artest is a sore loser" yet the Pacers weren't the ones losing in this game! There are a lot of fans out there who take the game too much to heart! There are also way too many people who expect superhuman restraint from these regular people with exceptional skills! There needs to be better security when a situation gets like that. They should have been ready once the conflict between Wallace and Artest broke out and the Pacers had the lead in their Arena! It was obvious that this could potentially happen! The Detroit players and fans are pissed and even though he was out of the reach of the player the fans were close enough.

Don Vito

11-21-2004, 11:07 AM

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/3935695/detail.html

Thank you, i feel sorry for that innocent person that got beat down by Artest.

Don Vito

11-21-2004, 11:09 AM

The poor guy was chilling and then some asshole throws a cup of beer at him, i if it was me i would have killed the guy.

rotarygod

11-21-2004, 01:16 PM

The problem is that he went after the wrong guy.

Don Vito

11-21-2004, 01:57 PM

Yeah, poor guy, i saw the real guy who threw it smiling and having fun.

It would be the best to have Artest and that guy fight alone in a room.

tadams

11-21-2004, 02:42 PM

If you really want to blame a single individual, it would have to be Ben Wallace. If he didn't over react to the foul by Artest by pushing the crap out of him, none of this ever would have happened. Why would I place more blame on Wallace than Artest? Because fouls are part of the game. Over reacting by pushing the crap out of someone after the whistle has blown isn't.

True, he was wrong; however, you can't blame him for what Artest did. If me and you bumb into me and I push you back hard and we get broken up by others, I am wrong for what I did. However, if while you are standing off to the side and someone else throws does something to you and you pull out a gun and shoot him.....am I to blame? Hell no, it is on YOU what you do after our altercation.

Let's be straightforward about who did what wrong:

Wallace: Guilty of overreacting, shoving Artest

Artest: Guilty of attacking Piston fans

Jackson: Guilty of attacking Piston fans

buzzardsluck

11-21-2004, 03:23 PM

This event just shows thats its good we have leagues like the NBA NFL and MLB because if we didnt then look how many people we would have in our already overcrowded jails. Don Vito saying hes gonna kill someone for just throwing a cup of ice/beer? i thought u were a peace loving guy

Rob Tomlin

11-21-2004, 04:42 PM

True, he was wrong; however, you can't blame him for what Artest did. If me and you bumb into me and I push you back hard and we get broken up by others, I am wrong for what I did. However, if while you are standing off to the side and someone else throws does something to you and you pull out a gun and shoot him.....am I to blame? Hell no, it is on YOU what you do after our altercation.

Let's be straightforward about who did what wrong:

Wallace: Guilty of overreacting, shoving Artest

Artest: Guilty of attacking Piston fans

Jackson: Guilty of attacking Piston fans

I agree with you 100%.

The point I was trying to make, which I think is clear from my post, is that if you are going to blame a single person it would have to be Ben Wallace. If he didn't over react, none of this would have happened. Period.

Don Vito

11-21-2004, 06:29 PM

Don Vito saying hes gonna kill someone for just throwing a cup of ice/beer? i thought u were a peace loving guy

Thats the whole point of being a peace-loving person, you love peace, but when its taken from you, you have to fix it.

Anyways, i was only joking, if soda was thrown at me i would chill, but if beer was thrown at me i wouldn't kill the guy but i would give him an ass whooping.

Immi

11-21-2004, 07:38 PM

Tayninh

11-21-2004, 08:08 PM

Millionaire players not able to take the fans with their drunken voice calls. You have expensive players who are pretty tall and buff and hardly any match for a drunken out of shape fan. That really looked bad and I think the players who lost it should pay for it somehow. Perhaps these players need to understand this is what the fans do in almost all sports. Perhaps the players think they are also above the law. They can do as they please mostly and are treated like kings anyway and so when a fan mouths off they lose it.

Napboy

11-21-2004, 08:41 PM

I think Ben's reaction was understandble under the circumstances...

How would you react if I mocked a dead relative for 40+ plus minutes AND commited a stupid unncessary foul with 40 seconds left?... I am 100% you would do more than a shove.

Artest, again i repeat, is the nba asshole.... and has very little respect for other players in the league or his own teammates.

His past: Elbowing Derek Anderson, missing team flights, working on a rap elbom instead of attending games.

Sounds like a class act to me eh!

Anyways
Artest is out for the season... seems like the nba KNOWS whats going on with this dude
O'Neal and Jackson out for a combined 65 games

Wallace got 6 games.

I was pretty much correct in my suspensions.

I think the league knows what kind of person Artest is.

To Napboy ... thanks for lovely opinion...i think you'll be a supporter of the ron artest rap album (that is an opinion)

Visa, what statement on this forum isn't an opinion? LOL.. I'm pretty sure guesses and predictions are the same thing...

Cheers

OK, I'd like to know where you get the idea that Artest was mocking Wallace for 40 minutes about a dead relative. In an earlier post, you said that he "probably" did. Are you making this up?

We all agree that Artest has a bad past and a bad reputation. But you seem to believe that this should be the cause of his suspension. And you think that because the NBA suspended him for the rest of the season, then you must be correct. The two don't correlate.

Seriously though, are you saying that are you 100% sure that we would all sit back while some fan threw a water bottle at us? No... so how can you blame him for this?

Immi

11-21-2004, 09:08 PM

OK, I'd like to know where you get the idea that Artest was mocking Wallace for 40 minutes about a dead relative. In an earlier post, you said that he "probably" did. Are you making this up?

We all agree that Artest has a bad past and a bad reputation. But you seem to believe that this should be the cause of his suspension. And you think that because the NBA suspended him for the rest of the season, then you must be correct. The two don't correlate.

Seriously though, are you saying that are you 100% sure that we would all sit back while some fan threw a water bottle at us? No... so how can you blame him for this?

cnn si gave ben's report on the incident, so im not making this up

i dont believe that his reputation led to his suspension, however his reputation dictates what he is capable of .... AND the nba sees this as a threat to the integrity of the league... therefore i do believe that in this suspension ron's reputation did have significance on david stern's decision

its a players responsibility to show restraint, alot could have been avoided if he restrained himself.... ron artest has proved over and over again that he is a volcano waiting to erupt.. and has yet to fail us...when provoked..he will erupt

he put himself in further danger when he went into the stands..I, on the other hand, WOULD SIT BACK when put in that situation.. if you want to risk yourself go ahead...you're just another artest :)

ciao

Immi

11-21-2004, 09:12 PM

the day after the incident, sports centre reported the possiblity that ron may have been trash talking to wallace regarding his brother

this morning cnn reported a statement from ben himself stating that ron was trashtalking

Hornet

11-21-2004, 09:13 PM

Just like the players involved should be punished the fans who threw things should be punished.

Immi

11-21-2004, 11:15 PM

agreed

mpt_yellowRX8

11-22-2004, 12:32 AM

RX-GR8

11-22-2004, 12:55 AM

artest is certifiable. the rage inside that man as he was throwing round house punches was disturbing. yes the fans were annoying and went way over the line but show some restraint. unless these punches missed the target there will be long days spent in court from the law suits filed by the fans.

Outlaws eXtreme

11-22-2004, 01:48 AM

Ben Wallace.. 6 games? What? Why such a small punishment for instigating this fight? He was the main instigator of the fight... went as far as throwing a towel at Artest while Artest was lying on the scorer's table. Ron Artest took that cheap shot, then as you notice, Ben Wallace was raising his arm as if to egg the fans on to cause more noise. Next thing you see is some idiot throwing a cup of beer on Artest.

Ron Artest.. Ban this season. Yes he stepped out of line here. Going after the fan like that was pretty scary. Regardless of any sort of trashtalking, that does not make it alright for Ben Wallace to shove another player like that AND instigate the fans to cause trouble. The Game was basically over... Pacers were dominating the paint, and Wallace was frustrated. But this suspension for the entire season is a bit harsh... Did Commisioner Stern not see the beer thrown at the guy? Imagine someone going to your work place and called you names, threatening you, then throwing beer on you. Would you just sit there and take it? Of course Ron went overboard... but I can't say he was TOTALLY at fault.

Jermaine O Neal... as you saw in that one clip where he potshot the fan and he slipped, it was that fan that STEPPED onto the court. Come on now.. what idiot steps onto the court with a Detroit jersey and yelling at the opposing team's players? That fan went up to Ron Artest and called him out ON the court... then Jermaine went over and clocked the fool. It was THAT fan's fault of getting on the court. Why does O'neal get 25 day suspension for that? 5 games maybe... but 25? WTH.

The Fans... what a bunch of idiots. I hope all of them that took cheapshots at the Pacers get arrested for what they did. Throwing chairs, beer, etc etc... it's ONLY a game, yet they wanted to start trouble. Frickin idiots.

Outlaws eXtreme

11-22-2004, 01:55 AM

I agree that the fans should be punished, but I think that the penalties and suspensions were not harsh enough. These guys are all multi-millionaires and can't restrain themselves from throwing a fit on the scorers table and suckerpunching inocent fans. Athletes and the social elite in general get of too easy and for what, they don't add anything productive to our society. They are here for entertainment, just like the man on the corner with the dancing monkey. There is a reason that I stopped watching basketball after guys like MJ and David Robinson retired and this confirms my thoughts, the current players are all a bunch of spoiled and idolized idiots. Artest should never be allowed back on the court, EVER, along with Jackson and O'Neil being suspended for the remainder of the season. I hope they all lose millions in the civil courts.

Just because you make a lot of money, does that mean you have to accept the name calling, beer tossing, threats by the fans? So by the simple fact that I pay big bucks for a courtside Lakers game, that means I can go on the court and yell at the players? I can toss beer at them? I can't wait to go to the next game, call Kobe a rapist, and if he tries to lunge at me, I'll tell him... "Hey buddy you make lots of money, take it and shove it."

Not saying Ron Artest or the other players involved didn't go overboard... but you have to see that the fans themselves went overboard. Quite a few of the fans grabbed onto the Pacer players and punched them from behind. The fans even went onto the court to instigated with the Pacer players.

Like you said, these guys make millions... That idiot shouldn't have stepped onto the court... these players should have the right to protect themselves if they felt threaten ON the court. Jumping into the stands, that's a different matter... that should have been handled by the security.

Detroit RX8

11-22-2004, 06:01 AM

It seems that its mostly the LA area people who are siding with Artest.. Are you guys still bitter about the championship??

:D

RX8_Buckeye

11-22-2004, 11:25 AM

First off, I'm not a Pistons fan just because I live in Detroit. That being said, I cannot believe what I'm reading in this thread. How can so many of you keep making excuses for the Pacer's players? Yes, the fans were wrong for throwing objects at the players, but everyone knows that you cannot take the law into your own hands. The self defense argument is just ridiculous. Hypothetical question: if the person who threw the cup of water was a female and Artest went after this women, would you still argue that Artest was simply defending himself? So if it's not right to go after a female, why is right to go after a male? This is all about Artest's bruised ego... his actions were totally inexcusable.

I said from the very beginning that Artest should be suspended for the season, and apparently the league agrees. I also agree with the length of Wallace's suspension. Physical altercations occur fairly regularly in the NBA, yet in 99% of the cases, it doesn't go beyond the players. Why should Wallace be punished for the ridiculous behavior of fans and the Pacer players?

The way I see it Detroit and it's fans are to blame. I'd fight back too. Screw Detroit. They F'ed up.
I hope you're talking about the Pistons when you say Detroit. To make generalizations about an entire city based on the actions of a few hundred drunken fans is not fair. If that were the case, what would the LA riots tell us about that city? Name your favorite large city, and I'll find an incident that makes the citizenry look despicable.

foxman

11-22-2004, 01:42 PM

Detroit RX8

11-22-2004, 01:50 PM

There is no culpability on the part of Detroit at all. All the NBA has done has punished the fans of Indianapolis for the acts of the Detroit fans. The precedent has now been set. The way to win a championship is to have your fans incite and attack opposing players, draw them into physical confrontations, then get them suspended. Sure there should be suspensions....10 games is reasonable. Detroit should be forced to play their next ten home games in an empty arena. I have lost all respect for Stern, Larry Brown and the Detroit Pistons. The other teams should show their disgust and boycott games at the palace.

Thats right.. we won the championship AFTER the fight..

Attack opposing players?? You have got to be kidding..

Do the fans deserve some of the blame? Yep, a few of them, say 50 in a crowd of over 20k.. Do the players.. Yup, Artest being the biggest part..

Even Sports Illustrated writers were calling for the leauge to expel Artest who has been nothing but trouble..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/chris_mannix/11/20/pacers.react/index.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/marty_burns/11/21/suspension.react/index.html

Now I see why you are so pissed.. Your from Indiana :)

foxman

11-22-2004, 02:07 PM

Outlaws eXtreme

11-22-2004, 02:25 PM

I still think Stern is playing favorites here... basically destroying any possibility for the Pacers to make it to the playoffs... even though they were 7-2 and killing the Pistons in that game. Ben Wallace got frustrated (regardless of the reason) and shoved back, HARD.

Meanwhile, Stern lightly gave the detroit players light punshiments relative to the Pacers... Stop and think about it. 25 games against Jermaine. He is playing in the rival's court, a riot erupts, he sees his teamates in a melee. Then some big fan steps onto the court, yells out something, and steps forward to Jermaine... what the heck was he suppose to do? Run away? I'm glad he clocked that fool that stepped onto the court.

Don Vito

11-22-2004, 02:34 PM

czr

11-22-2004, 02:39 PM

Everyone is to blame. In this order:

1. Artest - over reacted (he could have got killed in the stands, what was he thinking?)
2. Unruly fan #1 - Started it (dumbass lowlife fan that every city has at least one of)
3. Security (They should have found the guy who started it asap.)
4. More Unruly fans - put gas on the fire (more beer on artest in the stands)
5. Other players and fans (snowball effect: players clocking fans, big fans clocking players, fans throwing chairs, jermaine the knockout artist, fans throwing shit all over the place)

I dislike Ben Wallace but you can't blame him. He didn't throw Artest in the stands. I used to hate Artest but have lots of respect for him starting two years ago when I actually followed him around on the court. He is an awesome defensive talent. He made a bad judgement call and he will be punished. We'll see him next year.

Detroit RX8

11-22-2004, 03:11 PM

Well the fact of the matter is the Pacers were winning by a large margin which is why Ben Wallace got out of control to begin with -- it had nothing to do with the "hard" foul.

Don't even start with Sports Illustrated quotes as Detroit has had and still has players who are trouble -- can you say Dennis Rodman and Rasheed Wallace? The latter Portland could not wait to get rid of because he was nothing but trouble there. And as for the former, the name alone speaks for itself.

And for every Sports Illustrated writer there are 500 others who assign the blame for inciting, where it belongs -- Ben Wallace and the Detroit fans. I don't need a sports rag telling me what to think.

Oh I see why you are so defensive...you are from Detroit.

1. Ben Wallace did not react in that matter because we were losing, keep in mind earlier in the week or possibly the week before he buried his older brother. Also remeber that there has been rumors circualting that Artest was talking $hit about this.

2. Dennis Rodman?! Can you please come up with examples after 1995? :)

3. Rasheed Wallace - Yup, acted as a peace maker trying to break up the fight and calm people down.. big trouble maker he is. Not to mention one of the reasons the Pistons won the championship last year.

4. You obviously need to check yourself a bit. The majority of outside writers blame Artest for going into the crowd along with his fellow Pacers, not just Detroit Media or Sprts Illustrated (check out ESPN).

Come down to reality, Artest is an a$$ who doesn't even belong in the NBA and the other 2 got penalized for following him and joining in.

I reiterate, the select few fans were wrong, so was Artest for his "contributions".

Detroit RX8

11-22-2004, 03:16 PM

And I am not being definsive because I like the Pistons, hell, I don't even watch basketball, I prefer hockey. I am being defensive because of this comment:

The way I see it Detroit and it's fans are to blame. I'd fight back too. Screw Detroit. They F'ed up.

Detroit already has a bad enough rep for the riots in the 60-70's, much of it undeserved today.

tadams

11-22-2004, 03:39 PM

Here is a breakdown of what happened in sequence:

Source: http://www.hoopsvibe.com/basketball-article-14868.html

"1. Ben Wallace is fouled by Ron Artest with around forty-five seconds remaining in the fourth quarter.
2. Ben Wallace shoves Artest in the throat and the referee steps between the two players. Artest retreats and players on the floor tussle at half-court.
3. Ron Artest lies on the press/score table, smiling and briefly donning a headset.
4. Ben Wallace throws a towel at him and, shortly thereafter, a fan throws a water bottle at the supine Artest.
5. Artest jumps up and runs into the crowd, attacking a visibly shocked fan who claims not to have thrown in the bottle. This fan later says that as Artest kicked him while on the floor, he asked him "Did you do it?" and ceased to kick him when he said he did not (throw the bottle).
6. A fan wearing a blue jersey and a cap attempts to restrain Artest. ABC news reports that this is the man who threw the bottle at Artest. Another fan to his right throws water in Artest's face.
7. This fan is caught by a vicious right from Stephen Jackson, who had followed Artest into the stands.
8. The fan who had at first restrained Artest begins to punch him in the head from behind.
9. Another wearing a grey or beige sweater punches Fred Jones from behind. This fan is said to be a brother of Ben Wallace.
10. Artest returns to the floor and is confronted by a fan wearing a Rip Hamilton jersey. He swings at this fan twice, connecting on the first, and is pushed back by another fan. Both fans fall to the floor.
11. As the fan who pushed Artest to the floor returns to his feet, a sprinting Jermaine O'Neal punches him in the face, slipping and falling to the floor as he does so. He stands and flexes his muscles at the fan.
12. Official Tommy Nunez is hit in the face by a plastic bottle, opening a cut above his eye.
13. A police officer threatens Artest with pepper spray. Chuck Person intervenes and Reggie Miller brings over two more officers to escort Artest from the floor.
14. Artest and Jackson leave the floor. As O'Neal leaves, a chair is thrown, hitting his left arm.
15. As O'Neal is about to enter the tunnel, he is hit by a bucket of popcorn. He breaks loose of those escorting him from the floor and shouts into the crowd.
16. Jamaal Tinsley emerges from the tunnel brandishing a dustpan. He holds it aloft as if to swing or throw it, but does neither and retreats into the tunnel.
17. The game is called and fans are encouraged to exit the arena peacefully by Larry Brown speaking over the P.A. system. "

And from: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/chris_mannix/11/20/pacers.react/
is another good point about the initial foul:

"First, let's look at the play that set things in motion. With the Pacers holding a commanding 15-point lead with less than a minute to go, Pistons center Ben Wallace took the ball to the basket for what clearly was nothing more than a garbage-time bucket. Even Wallace's initial defender, Stephen Jackson, recognized the insignificance of Wallace scoring and stepped back, preferring to give up the score in exchange for regaining possession.

But once again, Ron Artest interjected himself into a play that had no bearing on the outcome of the game, fouling Wallace from behind as he went up for the lay-up. I listened to ESPN analysts last night talk about how Artest's foul wasn't of the flagrant variety, but that's hardly the point. At no time during that possession did Artest make any kind of play on the basketball. What he did was purposefully shove Wallace in the back and take a swipe with his off hand at the back of his head.

I worked in the NBA for 10 years, and one of the players I feel like I know the best is Ben Wallace, so believe me when I tell you that there is not a more gentle giant playing the game. I can recall a number of times when Wallace was placed in a situation where he or a teammate was being attacked and he chose to help diffuse the situation rather than engage in a physical confrontation."

93rdcurrent

11-22-2004, 03:46 PM

I love hockey! The players can take their aggressions out on each other and they very rarely have ever allowed it to spill into the fans. You just gotta pay attention to where that puck is... ;)

RX-GR8

11-22-2004, 03:54 PM

I love hockey! The players can take their aggressions out on each other and they very rarely have ever allowed it to spill into the fans. You just gotta pay attention to where that puck is... ;)

but when it does go into the stands i've seen hockey players using their sticks as weapons. also there have been stick swinging incidents on other players recently and many vicious illegal checks from behind or into the boards. the rules have really tamed things but i think in some ways it's more vicious now than it was in the 1970's with the "Broad Street Bullies" in philly. the players are bigger, faster and stronger now. back then the players didnt even wear helmets.

93rdcurrent

11-22-2004, 04:11 PM

but when it does go into the stands i've seen hockey players using their sticks as weapons. also there have been stick swinging incidents on other players recently and many vicious illegal checks from behind or into the boards. the rules have really tamed things but i think in some ways it's more vicious now than it was in the 1970's with the "Broad Street Bullies" in philly. the players are bigger, faster and stronger now. back then the players didnt even wear helmets.Like I said, I prefer hockey! I also like boxing quite a bit too... never been one to like the NBA though. They get paid too much money and think of themselves as demi-gods. Leaves little to like in my pallette. I would like to see some of the NBA guys in a match up with some choice hockey players and boxers... then we would see how far star power gets ya.

RX-GR8

11-22-2004, 04:20 PM

Like I said, I prefer hockey! I also like boxing quite a bit too... never been one to like the NBA though. They get paid too much money and think of themselves as demi-gods. Leaves little to like in my pallette. I would like to see some of the NBA guys in a match up with some choice hockey players and boxers... then we would see how far star power gets ya.

the NBA is going downhill fast. they come out of high school now instead of going to college and it's hurting the game. they don't learn the basics well enough and it shows. bring back magic and larry bird. they cared about the game.

93rdcurrent

11-24-2004, 01:10 PM

Here's an interesting article I'm sure the NBA PR has put together...

Player-Fan Violence Is Nothing New
Sun Nov 21, 1:03 PM

By CHRIS LEHOURITES, AP Sports Writer

- The mayhem at the Indiana Pacers-Detroit Pistons game was one of the worst brawls in U.S. sports history, but confrontations involving players and fans are not uncommon elsewhere in the world and often end with far more dire consequences.

One of the most notorious acts came in 1993 with the stabbing of Monica Seles in Hamburg, Germany. Seles, ranked No. 1 at the time, was stabbed in the back on the court by an obsessed fan of Steffi Graf, a burst of violence that underlined the vulnerability of pro athletes.

Soccer has been at the center of much of the violence, often the work of roving, hardcore fans known as hooligans.

Last week, racist fans attacked Bastia's black players after a French league game against Saint-Etienne. In Peru last year, fans surged on the field and chased and beat players after a disputed call, leaving 20 people wounded, including 13 players.

A decade ago in England, Manchester United's Eric Cantona jumped kung-fu style into the crowd and kicked a Crystal Palace fan in the chest for taunting him. The Frenchman initially received a two-week jail sentence for assault but that was changed on appeal to 120 hours of community service. Cantona was banned from playing for eight months and fined $45,000 while the fan was fined $750.

At the NBA brawl Friday night, fans and players threw punches while spectators tossed a chair and beer as chaos engulfed courtside at the arena in Auburn Hills, Mich. Four players _ Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal, Stephen Jackson and Ben Wallace _ were suspended indefinitely by the NBA for a fight commissioner David Stern called "shocking, repulsive and inexcusable."

The violence is hardly limited to soccer:

_In 2002, a Canadian Football League fan attacked B.C. Lions cornerback Eric Carter during a game in Winnipeg, Manitoba, and was promptly kicked and beaten by players.

_In 2002, 10 hooligans attacked a bus carrying a Greek basketball team. Five players and one team assistant were injured.

_In 2003, a spectator attacked South African player Louis Koen during a Rugby World Cup game in Brisbane, Australia. Koen was not injured, but the fan apparently was knocked out when hit in the head by a kick from the player.

Coaches and referees have been the target of violent fans.

During an Israeli league soccer game this year, a disgruntled Bnei Yehuda fan kicked Maccabi Petach Tikvah coach Guy Luzon in the face. Luzon was shaken but not badly hurt.

In September, Swedish soccer referee Anders Frisk was hit by an object thrown by an AS Roma fan, forcing him to abandon the European Champions League game. Dynamo Kiev was later awarded a 3-0 forfeit victory.

On Sunday, a game turned violent in Podgorica, Serbia-Montenegro, although the players had no part in it. At least 25 people were injured when fans rioted at a stadium after a tear gas canister exploded before a first division game. The injured were treated at a hospital for tear gas inhalation, broken arms and legs and other injuries, doctors said. Two ambulances were demolished.

Stadium tragedies have had deadly outcomes. They often are the result of panic, but many are caused by battling fans.

The Liverpool and Juventus soccer teams were at the center of one of the worst disasters in Europe in 1985 when 39 people were killed at the European Champions Cup final in Brussels, Belgium, after a wall separating fans collapsed.

In 2001, at least 123 people died in Accra, Ghana, in a stampede after police fired tear gas into the stands in response to fans who threw bottles and chairs on the field. Forty-three people were killed and 155 injured earlier that year in Johannesburg, South Africa, when fans tried to push into an overcrowded stadium.

And last month, four people were killed and eight others injured during a stampede at the end of a World Cup qualifying game in Lome, Togo.

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press.

Wankeler

11-24-2004, 02:17 PM

Here is a breakdown of what happened in sequence:

"1. Ben Wallace is fouled by Ron Artest with around forty-five seconds remaining in the fourth quarter.
2. Ben Wallace shoves Artest in the throat and the referee steps between the two players. Artest retreats and players on the floor tussle at half-court.
3. Ron Artest lies on the press/score table, smiling and briefly donning a headset.
4. Ben Wallace throws a towel at him and, shortly thereafter, a fan throws a water bottle at the supine Artest.
5. Artest jumps up and runs into the crowd, attacking a visibly shocked fan who claims not to have thrown in the bottle. This fan later says that as Artest kicked him while on the floor, he asked him "Did you do it?" and ceased to kick him when he said he did not (throw the bottle).

Why didn't Artest go after Wallace? Was it because he knew he could beat the crap outta a drunken fan instead of taking on Wallace? I mean really... that was one serious shove the Wallace laid on Artest, seems that would have been more serious than a beverage. So Wallace is also guilty of throwing something (a towel) at Artest, but there was no retalitation... not until he got hit with a beverage from a Detroit fan. So, not even knowing WHICH fan threw something at him, he randomly picks out someone in the gerneral direction it came from, charges the stands and starts assaulting some innocent bystander (with a foul mouth). I'm wondering if there were fans that are built like Bill Goldberg or Lou Ferrigno in the "general area", if Artest would have face Rasheed instead. Having stuff thrown at you (when you're a professional athlete) is common. Like someone else said, good thing this wasn't at SHEA stadium... a couple of "D" batteries hurt alot more than a beverage (unless it's an unopened can of FOSTERS). I find it funny that the "tunnel" is labeled the "vomitorium" by the NBA. I'd much rather have beer dumped on me than being puked on.... and I have expierienced both.

By the way, any of you gentlemen out there ever have a GF or ex-GF or Spouse (ex-spouses too) for that matter throw a drink in your face? If yes.... did you beat her ass to a pulp and kick her while she was on the ground?

There's a lot of blame to go around...

I personally blame it on the drunks... none of this would have happened if cannibis was sold instead of brewsky. :D