Don't get me wrong, I think the world of this group and of the impending release of the RX-8, but you guys need serious help. I just don't understand why everyone is so anxious to eek out every last ounce of speed out of this car?! In another thread, you guys would even not opt for the GT Package to save weight due to the sunroof. I think you all are missing the point of what this car is intended for (IMHO).

I have owned and driven just about everything there is out there... and yes, I too have fallen vicitm to the "Need for Speed", but I am here to tell you that this addiction to fractional benefits in speed is a bit short sighted. When I race, my home track is VIR (Virginia International Raceway). It has a 4,000 ft. back straight. Coming out of "Oak Tree" at 40mph you can really only get up to about 160 mph before you have to get hard on the brakes even in a 2002 Porsche 911 Turbo or 2000 Acura NSX.

I am intrigued by Mazda's approach here to focus on what really matters. This car is not about 0-60 times, it is not about quarter mile time, it is not about torque (clearly), it is about a well balanced piece of mobile art. Instead of raw power and speed, Mazda has chosen to focus on what really matters in the nature of the driving experience:

1) High reving engine providing sound and feel of power, even if there doesn't appear to be much of it.
2) Understanding of laws of physics to create a car with perfect balance and a low polar moment that turns in and appears almost telepathic in resposne to inputs.
3) Room for 4 with HUGE wheelbase normally reserved for BMW 750iL cars.
4) Compliant yet intelligent suspension for spirited back roads as well as highway crusing.
5) Bose Stereo, since you gotta have tunes!
6) Moonroof, since real people may want to sacrifice 42 lbs just to be able to see out.
7) The kind of style and design that you just don't get in a Lancer Evo.
8) Because chics don't really dig any car under $100,000 and they won't even know what the RX-8 is.
9) A slick 6-speed gear box since we all love to row the gears.
10) Nice 18" wheels since not all of us want to toss the OEM wheels away just to get something that looks good.

I could go on and on. Face it. In the last 24 years, I have had 27 cars, 20 cars in the last 8 years and 8 cars in the last 2 years. I want a practical sports car that is confortable and still allows me to pack my wife and two kids and head to the race track for a weekend with the local Mazda club. I think Mazda has hit a home run with this car and I find it interesting that most of you from 20-30 are still trying to make this car something that it was not originally intended to be.

Now, before you guys flame me or toss me off the list, keep in mind that I was in High School when the first RX-7 was made. My 20th high school reunion is next month. I am now almost 40. I have a wife and 2 kids under 4. Mazda knows that if they are to capture my money, they need a car exactly like the RX-8. It is a masterful job of part cult, part rocket science and part artistic masterpiece. I was sold on this car 2 years ago and I can't wait for my car to arrive.

It is a shame to think that MazdaSpeed versions, Possible Turbo versions and others might follow in the near future. I think many of us would likely dump our cars in favor of more power. But, unless you are an active part of the street racing crowd (a Vin Diesel wanna be) or just think you are Mario Andretti on the way home everynight from work, it would be a shame to ruin what I see as the Zen of the car that is what it is and doesn't have to apologize for anything. :)

Ah yes, but in the fung shui of auto art, can there EVER be too much horsepower? Is that like too much money, or a girl that is too pretty? If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, did the tree need more horsepower? :D

Here Here!

I agree with you G-Man, especially since I'm one of those 20-30 (going on 30 this year ;) ) guys you were talking about and I have historically been concerned, first and foremost with magazine and web site acceleration numbers and most everything else second. Over the past few years, I have broadened my knowledge and experience in many other facets of automobile ownership and now have a better understanding of what I truely want and need in a sports car. That is why I have chosen the RX-8, even with a number of other vehicles within +/- $5000 that could be considered.

Personally, I opted to get the Sport Package only because I did not really care for the "over-the-roof" sunroof, but that's just me. I have a sliding sunroof right now (internal, not over-the-roof), and don't use it very often at all. I also do not care for leather seating since I've had both and prefer a grippy cloth. I wouldn't have minded getting the Bose system, but since I couldn't get it as a separate option, it was the Sport Package for me. Besides, the "standard" radio uses the same head unit as the Bose, the only difference is the additional speakers and Bose pre-amp that I can always upgrade myself with Bose or other components.

The RX-8 is the best all around package for me and a car I would really be proud to own for the ideal combination of styling, interior, practicality, and exceptional engineering that it is. It's also a car I would like to use not only for daily transportation, but hopefully for some informal/car club/amatuer road course driving at some point.

You may have seen some of my posts in the tech garage about how additional power might be attainable in the RX-8, but a lot of those questions and discussions are for academic purposes only, at least for the immediate future. I would be very hesitant to do anything to my new RX-8 that would ruin its all around balance, but at the same time like to discuss the details and possibilities of the technical performance and engineering of the car, especially since this will be my first rotary.

With that said, I will probably not leave the car completely stock but will likely "personalize" it cautiously as time, information, and experience permits. I'm definitely not in a hurry, but I do know it will be something I will eventually do.

I like to tinker with my cars. :D

Great comment, G-Man. I totally agree with you, could not be said better!

If you need acceleration, go on a bike (see my K1100?). If you need sheer speed take a Porsche or whatever. This car is much more!

And, Boozehound: Yes it can be too much money for the guy who is not responsible with it, too pretty for the girl that is spoiled then!

Well said, GGuy, my story exactly, (well, except for the owning every car in the world part!)
Those are all the reasons, if it where just a case of 0-60/& 1/4 mile times, just go with a Vette with a 'Lingenfelter' blower, and quit bothering me with 'not enough power' whines.
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doc

Originally posted by G-man
I am now almost 40. I have a wife and 2 kids under 4.

You have a wife under age 4? I'm telling...:p

I also totally agree with G MAN ,but it is well known that youth is wasted on the young and money is wasted on the old , when i was younger i also felt BULLET PROOF and no car seemed fast or hard ,bad ass enough in todays lingo as you age you realize that it not about only speed but the over all drive .There are a lot of aspects to the rx8 that are being overlooked in the quest of extra speed but as they say each to their own vices At fifty you have nothing to prove to anyone except to yourself and you learn to be an individual and do things at your own pace .

Agreed here too.

And mind you I don't want all that power because you know it comes at a PRICE. And right now the RX-8 falls into my budget, I don't see the need for any immediate modifications because I *know* I'm not a track star driver, nor would I need all the excess power to take stoplight-to-stoplight.

I'm happy with the 250 horses with a slick 6 speed, and yea.. I got all the luxury items because I like that inviting cabin, if I didn't I'd likely have put money on an Evo or STi instead.

I think the people that immediately want to change out the rims, add the body kit, all that stuff do really take away from what Mazda is going for; a lightweight car that is insanely nimble, with a slick 6 speed and plenty of 'zoom zoom' for most folks. To add aftermarket rims for 'look' or the body kit from Mazdaspeed (which in my opinion is hideous but anyway), just adds weight to the car and takes away from what it's meant to be.

But to each his own; I'll be keeping my car 100% stock. The only modifications I might do are tinting the windows, and making the side markers clear instead of orange.

Other than that... bone stock for me, and that's plenty good. Keep in mind the RX-7 didn't start beating the Porsches back in the early 90s after heavy modification; it was stock.

I trust that Mazda and their engineering staff has done a good job in making everything work in harmony and that's why I'm not going to touch it in attempt that 'i know better'.

Yes this will be a very driveable car
and what differentiates the RX-8
is the refinement and exceptional functionality
(as well as attractive design and cost performance).

The "launch" seems too geared to the enthusiasts,
but my guess that the long term sustainable demand
will be based on increased levels of driver excitment
and satisfaction in every day use.

This flagship may become a very high volume production,
mainstay of Mazda and other manufacturers eventually,
when they catch on.

G-man,

I bet 99% of the people on this board like the RX-8 otherwise they would spend their time elsewhere. However, I, like many others, do not believe the car is perfect and see room for improvement. This is what makes us car geeks. I don't give a hoot about houses. My garage is larger than my house.

My garage is larger than my house

I wish my garage was larger than MY house:)

I'm on your side G-man, totally. There are those who think the RX-8 is slow & heavy, but when I compare it's 0-60 & weight to other vehicle in the same price range, there are few that compete in these 2 (but there are so many more) categories.

Inside & outside looks mean so much more.....to me. As a result, no pocket rocket 4 door for me, just give me my RX-8. I may not be quite as fast (but still quite fast), but I will look a helluva lot better.

Originally posted by rxeightr


I wish my garage was larger than MY house:)

I'm on your side G-man, totally. There are those who think the RX-8 is slow & heavy, but when I compare it's 0-60 & weight to other vehicle in the same price range, there are few that compete in these 2 (but there are so many more) categories.

Inside & outside looks mean so much more.....to me. As a result, no pocket rocket 4 door for me, just give me my RX-8. I may not be quite as fast (but still quite fast), but I will look a helluva lot better.

If you saw my house you would feel bad for me. Trust me.

I don't know anyone on this board that thinks the RX-8 is heavy. I am quite impressed that it is 10% lighter than all of the other RWD cars of similar size and type. This is the main factor that attract me to the car. However, I do think that we can make it another 5% lighter with few compromises. Light weight = great. Drive an Elise a Miata or Mr2 and you will see what I mean.

Originally posted by gord boyd
This flagship may become a very high volume production,
mainstay of Mazda and other manufacturers eventually,
when they catch on.

I absolutely agree about the possibility of the RX-8 being a mainstay for Mazda. I suspect that with some good marketing, the RX-8 being a great product (especially for the money), and a little luck, the RX-8 could very well turn out to be for Mazda, what the Mustang has been for Ford.

As for asthetic changes to the RX-8, I also prefer the stock look without any of the body kit parts, including the rear wing spoiler, although the Mazdaspeed looks neat from certain angles. The "European" lip spoiler would be as far as I would go if that. I think the stock 18" wheels have a perfect look and size so those won't be changed out either. Others may do differently, so to each their own. That's what makes the world an interesting place to live. ;)

The only modification that many would consider is changing the wheels. I agree that they look great and go very well with the car, but some would rather opt for either lighter 18 inch wheels or 17 inchers. I know the wheels are light for OEM, but that is one area that almost all cars could loose some weight right out of the factory.

I will certainly get me another set of wheels when I get some winter/snow tires. Normally I put the winter wheels on the OEM rims and get me a cool set of summer rims then.

(This winter it was REAL icy, you could not walk due to ice rain :) )

G-Man, while I agree with your post completely, I think that in general you're preaching to the choir. The majority of members here AREN'T obsessed with winnowing every last hundredth of a second- it's a just very vocal minority. If you read back a few months (not that anyone has time to, but IF you did) you'd see a lot of very similar posts to yours(but not quite as well stated!).

I'm among those who completely agree with G-Man's comments. As I've written in other threads, Mazda and the RX-8 are about balanced performance and value.
Those who think HP is the answer to their dreams would have done well to attend the SoloII event I was at this weekend. Among cars entered and driven were a Viper ACR (SS) with a father/son team; a 2002 M3 (SS) (getting the entire bottom end of the engine replaced tomorrow); an S2000 (BS); a new 350Z (BS); an Gen II RX-7 (SM); a number ES, ESP, CSP Miatas; and the usual odd variety of STX, HS, GS cars. There was one other CS Miata besides mine. Now I'm a relative novice at SOLOII, this being only my sixth event. But, the other CS Miata, a '99, (on Kumhos)was driven by a 61 year old, 20 year veteran of autox. What to guess who had the fastest time of the day? If you guessed the '99 CS Miata, you were right. This event was not a slow course as it was held at a race track, Roebling Road. At the end of the course, through turn 5, I was doing better than 70mph. Tires and drivers make a BIG difference where it counts, but the car has to work too. Hell, I even beat the Viper!!!
Can't wait to get my RX-8!:D :D :D

great post! after i got flamed in that other "Weight difference between SP and GT package" thread, i thought i was the only one that felt this way...

i too want an overall great car, and i'm not gonna sacrifice a lot of the amenities to add a few hundreths of a second to my 0-60 time...and really, if you were seriously Jenny Craig Weight Watching, then why no just get the base model RX-8 and gut it? i'm sure those fog lamps add some weight and will ultimately slow down the car...

anyways, i agree with just about all your points, especially the fact that the RX-8 wasn't built for speed...seriously, if it was, there wouldn't be 4 doors nor 4 seats...it would be a 2 door 2 seater...

very good thread g man. helped me to realize and get over "obsessing myself with every ounce of speed." ;) hey... i'm 18 what can i say? but i'm still trying to learn as much as i can about what a TRUE GREAT car is made up of... and the rx-8 seems to fit that title perfectly. :D
peaceeeee

edit: threaT to threaD. hehe

Originally posted by BRx8
anyways, i agree with just about all your points, especially the fact that the RX-8 wasn't built for speed...seriously, if it was, there wouldn't be 4 doors nor 4 seats...it would be a 2 door 2 seater...

Actually, I don't agree that the RX-8 wasn't built for speed or that a "true sports car" wouldn't have four doors. If you look at what the program manager, Noboru Katabuchi, says about the RX-8, when asked if the RX-8 can really be considered a true sports car, he replies that size, weight, and proportions are more important than whether or not a car has four doors. Just like some of us have had to come to grips with the fact that true sports cars offer more than just pure straight line acceleration, the "old school" belief that a sports car has to be a two door two seater, has now become outdated. Technically you could own the RX-8 and never use the rear doors making it essentially a two door, they are just their incase you need them.

There are a lot of cars that have back seats of various sizes that anyone would be hard pressed to call anything other than a sports car. The RX-8 is one of them.

Originally posted by DTECH-RX


Actually, I don't agree that the RX-8 wasn't built for speed or that a "true sports car" wouldn't have four doors. If you look at what the program manager, Noboru Katabuchi, says about the RX-8, when asked if the RX-8 can really be considered a true sports car, he replies that size, weight, and proportions are more important than whether or not a car has four doors. Just like some of us have had to come to grips with the fact that true sports cars offer more than just pure straight line acceleration, the "old school" belief that a sports car has to be a two door two seater, has now become outdated. Technically you could own the RX-8 and never use the rear doors making it essentially a two door, they are just their incase you need them.

There are a lot of cars that have back seats of various sizes that anyone would be hard pressed to call anything other than a sports car. The RX-8 is one of them.

very good point...but then again, i'm more inclined to place the RX-8 in a class all in its own...it's been ingrained in our heads that a "true sports car" cannot have 4 doors, otherwise it is a sports sedan...but then again when you look at the RX, it definitely looks like a sports car...

as for the speed part, well what i really meant was that it wasn't built just for speed...the RX-8 is fast, but that's not all it's for...the RX-8 was made to appeal to EVERYONE, those that want a fast sports car that can't compromise the extra 2 seats, and want the comforts of 4 doors...

so again, i'm left wondering what kind of car the RX really is...yes, it is a "true sports car", but it's also a "true sports sedan" at the same time

Well, we could all just call it a "true performance car" and leave it at that. It "performs" just about every function you could ask of it well whether it's handling the twisties, providing a comfortable ergonomic interior for daily driving, carrying four people, or giving you a peak at what 150MPH looks like from the inside of a car (hopefully on a track! ;) ).

I'd never call it a "sports sedan" though. That's blasphemy! ;)

I still say "true sports car". :D

Gee, I didn't figure on so much support or agreement. Not that I was trying to be controversial, but I was really just thinking out loud last night... and then it finally hit me. I miss my Miata and I have been searching in vain for that kind of feeling in another car ever since 1999. I need a "real" car that I can toss the golf clubs in and a few of my buddies and even the family for a quick trip to the mall... but I don't want to sacrifice the kind of "sports car essence" (read as "Zoom-Zoom") that my Miata had and grated for $100,000 more than my Miata is also shared by my 2002 Porsche 911 Turbo.

I raced the Miata for over a year and while the car spent most of its time under 100 miles per hour it was still the most fun I have ever had on the race track. Driving the car at 9/10ths of its capability and 10/10ths of mine. :) The car was always well balanced and always in 4 wheel drift mode on the track. The 1999 Miata Sport was an awesome look at the Zoom-Zoom to come. I even recently drove the Protege' 5 and realized that it too is a lot more fun to drive than many other cars out there and it is only $17,000 loaded and only has a 4 cylinder engine and is slow as Christmas in July... but there is still a lot of "Zoom-Zoom" built in there.

I am very anxious to see for myself if the RX-8 lives up to the promise and the hype. I am sure that it will. I still can't believe it has similar if not better stats that a 3rd Gen RX-7. WOW! Of course, those engines only lasted 35,000 miles and then it was Zoom-Zoo-KERBLAM! I think the RX-8 will be a carefully considered, well thought out, easy to service, durable, fun to drive car that all of us can easily live with every day... what more could you have asked for?! I hope the folks at Mazda lurk at this site... ;)

Originally posted by G-man
Gee, I didn't figure on so much support or agreement. Not that I was trying to be controversial, but I was really just thinking out loud last night... and then it finally hit me. I miss my Miata and I have been searching in vain for that kind of feeling in another car ever since 1999. I need a "real" car that I can toss the golf clubs in and a few of my buddies and even the family for a quick trip to the mall... but I don't want to sacrifice the kind of "sports car essence" (read as "Zoom-Zoom") that my Miata had and grated for $100,000 more than my Miata is also shared by my 2002 Porsche 911 Turbo.

I raced the Miata for over a year and while the car spent most of its time under 100 miles per hour it was still the most fun I have ever had on the race track. Driving the car at 9/10ths of its capability and 10/10ths of mine. :) The car was always well balanced and always in 4 wheel drift mode on the track. The 1999 Miata Sport was an awesome look at the Zoom-Zoom to come. I even recently drove the Protege' 5 and realized that it too is a lot more fun to drive than many other cars out there and it is only $17,000 loaded and only has a 4 cylinder engine and is slow as Christmas in July... but there is still a lot of "Zoom-Zoom" built in there.

I am very anxious to see for myself if the RX-8 lives up to the promise and the hype. I am sure that it will. I still can't believe it has similar if not better stats that a 3rd Gen RX-7. WOW! Of course, those engines only lasted 35,000 miles and then it was Zoom-Zoo-KERBLAM! I think the RX-8 will be a carefully considered, well thought out, easy to service, durable, fun to drive car that all of us can easily live with every day... what more could you have asked for?! I hope the folks at Mazda lurk at this site... ;)

Well said. That's why I'm keeping my Miata when the RX-8 arrives...so I can have the best of all worlds without spending $70k on one Porsche that will carry only one set of clubs.:cool:

Great post... I totally agree with you and you've captured the essence of the car perfectly!

I'm totally down with the idea of not requiring the utmost in performance. A balance of some sort is what almost everyone wants, and finding the point between luxuary and performance is up to the individual. But isn't all of this talk overlooking one important little fact?

Nobody's driven it! How can anyone say it has enough or too little power - you haven't commuted in it, or merged on the freeway at rush hour. Its hard to decide if a car is the right car for you, but shouldn't most of this "best balance of performance and functionality" talk come AFTER everyone has had some seat time? Everyone's needs for the car are different, and I think most people in this forum are banking on Mazda's reputation and are willing to give it a shot (if you placed a NON-refundable deposit, you're either nuts or a seasoned speculator ;) ).

I for one am really encouraged by the amount of discussion and enthusiasm about the car even before it rolls off the ship, but why dont we wait until we get to the test drive part to start telling people what's what - especially when it comes to performance and functionality? I mean come on, who's loaded up their groceries and kids and run their errands in an 8 yet?

This car is totally unique: rotary engine, 4 doors, killer looks

Well personally I am an import tuner. cars are my hobby and maximizing performance and styling is something I really am into. I am not a fanatic that wants every hp out of the car... it doesnt really matter because I am not racing all the time. this car purely will probably for daily driving. but I do not see what is wrong with squeezing that extra hp out of the engine, tuning a rotary, hearing the nice soothing pitch of the exhaust, and induction of the turbo and then the ohhh so sweet Blow Off Valve hiss. Nothing like it. I am getting the leather and moon roof cuz I use my moon roof everyday unless its raining...

RIMS
Personally I love the fact the rx8 has 18" rims...but they are ugly as hell.

I am definately switching mine out to a more high quality wheel in 19" that is lighter and has an increased width. I have 19"s right now and I love them... they look great.

but I will switch out my suspension to a lower stance and higher quality coilovers with sway bars, strut towers, and lower tie bars. the stock rx8 is way too high for my taste.

Bodykit
I am personally designing my own and want to produce a line of aero fashion for my vehicle as a show piece. I am an artist and a masterpiece can always be made better with the right application.

I live in socal and the import tuner scene is crazy here... unlike most parts of the US excluding florida. I love to make my car faster, better, and better looking, there is always room for improvement.

personally I think I am trying to make up for the lack of performance in my current car... being an automatic and 4 cylinder soooo that being said... whats so bad about tuning a car?

Originally posted by Efini 8
personally I think I am trying to make up for the lack of performance in my current car... being an automatic and 4 cylinder soooo that being said... whats so bad about tuning a car?

And here I thought you were making up for your feelings of personal inadequacy. :)

All kidding aside, there is nothing wrong with "tuning" or "mods". That wasn't what I said. What I said was it seemed rediculous to choose the Sport Package over the GT package beause you didn't want a sunroof due to the extra 42 lbs. That just seemed silly. The constant trimming to save weight and the constant numbers game where battles are won or lost in fractions of a second just seems silly. People who like to complain will tell you there is not enough torque for them, or they miss the turbos of the RX-7. I think I outlined the top 10+ ways this car is superior without worring about the numbers game. I can guaraneed you all that you will enjoy it.

Originally posted by G-man


And here I thought you were making up for your feelings of personal inadequacy. :)

All kidding aside, there is nothing wrong with "tuning" or "mods". That wasn't what I said. What I said was it seemed rediculous to choose the Sport Package over the GT package beause you didn't want a sunroof due to the extra 42 lbs. That just seemed silly. The constant trimming to save weight and the constant numbers game where battles are won or lost in fractions of a second just seems silly. People who like to complain will tell you there is not enough torque for them, or they miss the turbos of the RX-7. I think I outlined the top 10+ ways this car is superior without worring about the numbers game. I can guaraneed you all that you will enjoy it.

yea that is just stupid... not getting the moonroof to save 42lbs... maybe they should loose some weight

Originally posted by Efini 8


yea that is just stupid... not getting the moonroof to save 42lbs... maybe they should loose some weight

Well its not so much the weight of the sunroof but the placement of the weight as well. For a car to be balanced, you'd want the weight to be as low as possible, and for the sunroof to be at the highest point of the car.. having an extra 42lb on the highest part of the car isn't too great.

I personally don't want the sunroof because its just something extra that would leak/squeak/rattle down the road.. not something I want. Plus you'd lose some structural integrity with a sunroof as well.

I wouldn't mind having leather (although I really wish they color matched with the exterior) or the Bose sound system and maybe the power stuff, those are great but I could certainly do w/o the sunroof...

uhhhh I like speed because it's what I would buy this car for. If I wanted amenities I'd get a C230 "sports coupe" ... :p

You are absolutely correct if you are looking for a GT car or a nice sports sedan. The problem is that mazda has marketed this as a sports car (with a legendary RX name that will currently be their flagship model) and a lot of people were expecting a pretty serious sports car.

Now before I get flamed, I am not talking about straightline speed or the "T" word. I'm talking about less focus on non-performance attributes (i.e. ride quality, rear passenger room, etc.) and more on performance (i.e. higher tuned suspension to reduce body roll, less understeer, quicker steering, etc.). Personally, I wouldn't change the powerplant at all, its a gem. However, as a serious sports car that can compete with the 350Z, S2000 and others, it needs to be lighter, IMHO.

The model exists for high reving , "low" engine torque designs to be quite competitive in their classes (i.e. S2000, Integra Type R, Lotus Elise, Celica GTS). I was hoping the RX8 would be this for the ~30K sports car class. In reality the RX8 does this, but in the $30-40K sports sedan class. Thus, that's why its does quite well when compared to the BMW 3 Series and G35 Coupe.

Personally, I have never had the opportunity to own a high performance car (though I have driven and salivated over a bunch), but now am financially (and personally mature enough to handle such a machine) able to do so. Given, that I'm reasonably young and don't care about ride quality (driveing a 10 year old Ford Escort with over 100K miles, many of which were through potholed filled streets toughens you up a bit . :o), I'm willing to make that sacrifice. Thus, that's why I'm going with the EVO. If I placed some more importance on ride quality and other amenites, the RX8 would have been a better fit. Again "different strokes for different folks".

Originally posted by G-man
In another thread, you guys would even not opt for the GT Package to save weight due to the sunroof. I think you all are missing the point of what this car is intended for (IMHO).

6) Moonroof, since real people may want to sacrifice 42 lbs just to be able to see out.



G-man, I think you have misunderstood us. We definately get the point regarding the RX-8. As an engineer, I understand the effort the engineers did to lower th CG of the RX-8 to enhance the car's performance. I appreciate that effort and I'm not going to take away from it by adding the moonroof. That is my personal choice and I think a lot of guys agree with me. Basically it comes down to cost-benefit-performance. There is no right-wrong dicussion here, it's just a question of choice.

From Automobile Mag. Mazda two page ad:

" WEIGHT IS THE ENEMY .
Because every pound you save improves performance in every dimension:
Acceleration. Braking. Handling

*So it's almost 90 pounds lighter than even a popular all aluminum V6 (sports car engineers kill for 90 pounds) "

Engineers worked very hard to shave 90 pounds from the engine. The only thing I'm trying to say is that 42 lb for a moonrof makes a difference in performance, especially when it is so high from the CG.

This thread is assinine (sic?). We have one group cracking on another group for being obsessed about performance and the first goup says that the car is good enough as is.

What can be gained by this thread? To convince someone that they shouldn't do as they please with their car even though it affects others in no way? That is just closed minded. Some want to improve acceleration, others want to add body kits, others want hi-fi stereos, yet others see the car perfect as is. Great! I hate little spoilers, big spoilers or any body kits. Guess what? I do not participate in threads I am uninterested in.

Originally posted by babylou

What can be gained by this thread? To convince someone that they shouldn't do as they please with their car even though it affects others in no way?

This is just a discussion. We are not trying to convince anyone to change their options. We are just pointing out that some modifications (moonroof) will affect the performance of the car by a larger margin than people think.

Originally posted by babylou
This thread is assinine (sic?). We have one group cracking on another group for being obsessed about performance and the first goup says that the car is good enough as is.

What can be gained by this thread? To convince someone that they shouldn't do as they please with their car even though it affects others in no way? That is just closed minded. Some want to improve acceleration, others want to add body kits, others want hi-fi stereos, yet others see the car perfect as is. Great! I hate little spoilers, big spoilers or any body kits. Guess what? I do not participate in threads I am uninterested in.

Nobody's trying to convince anyone of anything, everyone's just giving their opinion's on what the car means to them and that they would want out of it..

There's bound to be disagreements in the world otherwise, what fun would it be??

eh, i think he's upset about the little cracks here and there that's been showing up in other threads as well, like the crack about the license plate and the engine cover adding weight and affecting the center of gravity...

IMO, those are just little jokes that one should not be so offended on although I can see why he's getting upset being the person that has calculated the weight of every single little thing on the car down to the shift knob

personally the way i see it is this...everyone is entitled to their own opinion on what the car does for them...some will of course disagree and some will disagree in a way that will offend others...my advice is to either debate your idea with those ppl or ignore them altogether...no need to get so upset as you'll probably never meet any of these ppl in your entire life, hence their opnions shouldn't really be that important to you and you should only take them for their face value

Originally posted by BRx8
personally the way i see it is this...everyone is entitled to their own opinion on what the car does for them...some will of course disagree and some will disagree in a way that will offend others...my advice is to either debate your idea with those ppl or ignore them altogether...

Person 1: I want to find ways to get more power out of my RX-8.

Person 2: You are an idiot because I am completely happy with the power as is.

Person 1: Maybe my priorities are different than yours. I tend more towards speed than most. Is that so bad?

Person 2: No one needs more than 260 hp. You are an idiot. If I do not want more power then no one should have more power.

Person 1: Okay, I never use a sunroof so why should I pay money for a sunroof and be saddled with the extra weight?

Person 2: I like sunroofs and the RX-8 is not a pure sports car so everyone should have a sunroof, idiot.

Person 1: Well then can I trade the weight of the sunroof for the luxury of weighty stereo equipment?

Person 2: No! The stereo is fine as is. You seem to have a hard time understanding me. Even though you made the money to buy your RX-8 they should all be made to my tastes. I am the final judge as to what is good or not. Idiot!

Is that what you call a debate? I don't. Like I said earlier, If you don't want this ot that, great. Read the name for the topic and if it is not your cup of tea move on. I do.

Originally posted by babylou
I do not participate in threads I am uninterested in.

:D You just did!

But seriously, you're right about the 2 camps and nothing will change with threads like this. The same torque arguments happen with the S2000. The Miata has it camps too. One side thinks the car is perfect and fun, while some will say it is to slow for them to enjoy it. But it isn't the best selling sports car in the world for no reason at all.

I don't know if the RX8 is right for me, but that doesn't mean I dilike the car either. It's just might not be for me. Same with the 350Z. It's a nice car, but just doesn't do anything for me. I'm still waiting for a car that will not only meet my personal performance criteria, but more importantly, has to "stir my emotions".

Originally posted by desmo996
From Automobile Mag. Mazda two page ad:

" WEIGHT IS THE ENEMY .
Because every pound you save improves performance in every dimension:
sports car engineers kill for 90 pounds


women too:D

Originally posted by babylou
This thread is assinine (sic?). We have one group cracking on another group for being obsessed about performance and the first goup says that the car is good enough as is.

What can be gained by this thread? To convince someone that they shouldn't do as they please with their car even though it affects others in no way? That is just closed minded. Some want to improve acceleration, others want to add body kits, others want hi-fi stereos, yet others see the car perfect as is. Great! I hate little spoilers, big spoilers or any body kits. Guess what? I do not participate in threads I am uninterested in.

Personally, I think that the purpose of the thread is to get to say, "If I wanted power, I would just drive my Bugatti or Ferarri to work."

Fact is that each person has to decide what they want out of this car and if it is worth $35k to them. There is no one correct answer that proves that you are a true enthusiast while your opponents are just uncultured street racing slobs, or that you are a track eating demon while your opponent would sacrifice 50lbs in weight to install a bin to hold their 'Depends'.

I think some people need to remember that not everyone can be totally satisfied with the idea of a car that is simply unique. True, there is more to a sports car than speed, but speed is definitely a factor. Otherwise we could drive MGs. Not that MGs aren't cool, but there is nothing wrong with wanting a fast car.

Try to remember that for a lot of people this will be their only car, or their first performance car, or the best car they have ever owned. When you can't buy another car on a whim, you want everything about your car to be special and hopefully superior to the other cars you have passed up. I just find it a little annoying when people make comments like, "If I wanted X(feature), I would just buy Y($60,000+ car).

There are not only 2 camps of people.

There is a third camp, of which I'm a member, that is just a reality-based camp.

We realize that the RX-8 could be faster, handle better, do everything better... but it all comes at a price. And the price we're paying right now with the convienience features and rear seat, not to mention nice interior and styling, all at 30k or less is VERY impressive.

If you want a car that's ALL out performance, then this isn't it. The Evo, STi, sure.... If you want one that's got all out styling, build quality, AND performance, then again, this isn't the car. That car would be much more expensive (think M3, S4, C32 AMG, etc). But if you want a car that comfortably seats four, handles exceptionally well, has pretty damn good power, and the most impressive engine design on the market, then the RX-8 is the car for you.

And if you don't like something about the RX-8... then don't buy it. I just don't want to hear the complaints about the car because there are lots of other choices out there for you to get your 'fix' for speed and power. I prefer, as do many others here, a lightweight car that's plenty fun to drive, and doesn't empty my pocket at the end of the day. The RX-8 is a 4 seat Miata to me.

The people that want the excessive power of the Evo and STi seem to me, and I could be wrong, just the typical stoplight racers that don't know how to drive outside dropping the clutch and peeling out for their drag racing. True driving excitement to ME, is being able to (on a track or suitable area) able to take those corners at the apex, even kicking the tail out, countersteering and getting a nice little drift into a turn, all the while maintaining extreme control because of the car, and because of the driver's skill.

There's a saying by bwob, that goes "If you can't go fast with a 90hp car, 900hp won't help you." And going around those curves with excessive speed, being able to apex and control it properly is to ME, so much more rewarding than being able to fly in a glorified econobox like the Evo or STi.

But again, that's just ME. Everybody's different. But don't buy this car thinking it's something it's not and then complaining. All the information is here for you, all the reviews give you that same information. This car is about handling, looks, quality and value. The emphasis can be placed in my opinion, on handling which is what I'm happy about. The power is plenty for me right now, maybe in a few years I'll think I want to move up again; besides if you really need to go to 60 or the quarter faster than you're better off buying a nice F-Body and putting some money into it; you'll wind up spending less even after mods and have plenty of power.

I don't need EVERY drop of power that other cars may offer. I need a great handling RWD car that's got good quality inside and out, room for four, good looking and good value. The RX-8 is the only one that fits the bill for me.

Different strokes for different folks. Comparisons done nowadays are stupid, because cars are so different. The only direct competition to the RX-8 is the G35 Coupe and 330Ci. And considering the latter two come at a $5,000 and almost $10,000 premium over the RX-8, and offers less in almost every category (though the G35C wins in power), the choice is more clear.

So if you want the Evo, STi, or <insert car here>, then go buy it. If you have questions about the RX-8, then ask them, we are happy to answer. But if you're here complaining about a car that's built for great handling and great value, because it's "not fast enough" or "not light enough", just think before you ask because all those items come at a PRICE. And that's a price right now, I'm not willing to pay. Neither are a lot of others.

Cheers.

Damn, nice job Hercules.

Originally posted by NikoN
Damn, nice job Hercules.
Dido... you can defiantly put me in the 3rd camp!

Originally posted by Hercules
There are not only 2 camps of people.

There is a third camp, of which I'm a member, that is just a reality-based camp.

We realize that the RX-8 could be faster, handle better, do everything better... but it all comes at a price. And the price we're paying right now with the convienience features and rear seat, not to mention nice interior and styling, all at 30k or less is VERY impressive.

If you want a car that's ALL out performance, then this isn't it. The Evo, STi, sure.... If you want one that's got all out styling, build quality, AND performance, then again, this isn't the car. That car would be much more expensive (think M3, S4, C32 AMG, etc). But if you want a car that comfortably seats four, handles exceptionally well, has pretty damn good power, and the most impressive engine design on the market, then the RX-8 is the car for you.

Very well put, I couldn't agree more. A point that I was making was I wish they placed more emphasis....on the performance part of the mix...but let me emphasize this is primarily related to HANDLEING..that's right....the RX8 has such potential...but IMHO..they fell short by compromising too much by putting too much GT/sports sedan qualities into the mixture of hybrid sports car (that is marketed as a sports car). According to the Sports Car International article, the car would not fare well in autocross without some serious adjustments to the suspension...if I'm paying $30 K for a "sports car"...I shouldn't have to immediately adjust the suspension to make it a reasonable autocross vehicle..especially if its niche is superior "handleing".

Originally posted by Hercules
And if you don't like something about the RX-8... then don't buy it. I just don't want to hear the complaints about the car because there are lots of other choices out there for you to get your 'fix' for speed and power. I prefer, as do many others here, a lightweight car that's plenty fun to drive, and doesn't empty my pocket at the end of the day. The RX-8 is a 4 seat Miata to me.

The people that want the excessive power of the Evo and STi seem to me, and I could be wrong, just the typical stoplight racers that don't know how to drive outside dropping the clutch and peeling out for their drag racing. True driving excitement to ME, is being able to (on a track or suitable area) able to take those corners at the apex, even kicking the tail out, countersteering and getting a nice little drift into a turn, all the while maintaining extreme control because of the car, and because of the driver's skill.

That's right no one should ever say anything negative about the RX8...because its absolutely perfect. :confused: Anyone that wants anything faster must be "just the typical stoplight racers that don't know how to drive outside dropping the clutch and peeling out for their drag racing." The EVO and STI, while great from a stop are not designed to be nor are the best choice for drag racing due to the high RPM launches they require to fully take advantage of their traction when launching. They are "point and shoot" cars designed to handle real roads (yes even ones with sharp turns and curves) and accelerate in quick bursts to take advantage of the often fleeting straights. You keep on insinuating they are just economy cars with a turbo and nothing else..essentially japanese muscle cars.

Originally posted by Hercules
There's a saying by bwob, that goes "If you can't go fast with a 90hp car, 900hp won't help you." And going around those curves with excessive speed, being able to apex and control it properly is to ME, so much more rewarding than being able to fly in a glorified econobox like the Evo or STi.

I completely agree with BWOB's point. However, I have a 90 HP "econobox" (actually I think its 88 HP to be exact) and while it has a crappy suspension (in terms of having high limits and a smooth ride) its still fun cause its got a reasonably easy gearshift and is like 2300 odd pounds. "Econoboxes" are one of the few classes of cars that are still relatively lightweight...and IMHO..in some cases dare I say "fun" Of course according to Hercules..anyone can create an EVO or STI by slapping an aftermarket turbo on their (pick your favorite "econobox") since as a "glorified econobox" they have nothing else substantively different designed to give them their legendary status throughout many parts of the world. :confused: Would putting faux wood trim and heated seats transform it from a "glorified econobox" to something else??

Since you have never driven a serious rally-inspired car (though I'm sure you have researched them extensively before expressing your opinion), how do you know you can't have "fun" besides being able to "fly" in them. Why do you think they have been so widely hailed by enthusiasts such as EVO, CAR and Top Gear magazines for years?? Are they perfect, hell no. They don't offer a smooth ride, they sure as hell could look better, but they are fun as hell, are somewhat practical and affordable to the common man. I suggest you test drive an EVO. Just drive it and see what it's like, you just might see there is more than one way to have fun in your car(ok..maybe there is another one too LOL). I can provide you with a dealer where you can get a test drive (BTW...driving a WRX does not equal driving an EVO...trust me as I've tested them both).

As for the great, classic RWD handeling charateristics...you describe..I think it might be much more stable than you think with the long wheelbase and understeer tuned in...I doubt its going to be like an S2000 or a mid-engined RWD car in those scenarios where total concentration (and driver involvement) is required, but I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Hercules
But again, that's just ME. Everybody's different. But don't buy this car thinking it's something it's not and then complaining. All the information is here for you, all the reviews give you that same information. This car is about handling, looks, quality and value. The emphasis can be placed in my opinion, on handling which is what I'm happy about. The power is plenty for me right now, maybe in a few years I'll think I want to move up again; besides if you really need to go to 60 or the quarter faster than you're better off buying a nice F-Body and putting some money into it; you'll wind up spending less even after mods and have plenty of power.

I don't need EVERY drop of power that other cars may offer. I need a great handling RWD car that's got good quality inside and out, room for four, good looking and good value. The RX-8 is the only one that fits the bill for me.

You never really know until you test drive a car..I don't care how much "information" you have. IMHO, the "handleing" could have been better if they didn't try to accomplish too many things with this car. Its excellent when compared against sports sedans, but against many sports/performance cars it doesn't measure up (based on information I have seen). I'm happy it fits the bill for you, but it dissappointed a lot of people as well. I would have much preferred to get an RX8 with near the same focus on perfomance as the EVO (that is and RX8 with the same or even less power than it has now) using a true lightweight design to take advantage of the high reving NA rotary. Perhaps it will come with a Mazdaspeed RX8 or the next RX7?

Originally posted by Hercules
Different strokes for different folks. Comparisons done nowadays are stupid, because cars are so different. The only direct competition to the RX-8 is the G35 Coupe and 330Ci. And considering the latter two come at a $5,000 and almost $10,000 premium over the RX-8, and offers less in almost every category (though the G35C wins in power), the choice is more clear.

So if you want the Evo, STi, or <insert car here>, then go buy it. If you have questions about the RX-8, then ask them, we are happy to answer. But if you're here complaining about a car that's built for great handling and great value, because it's "not fast enough" or "not light enough", just think before you ask because all those items come at a PRICE. And that's a price right now, I'm not willing to pay. Neither are a lot of others.

Cheers.

Its ridiculous to classify cars into ridiculous subcategories. Price and GENERAL type (in this case FUN and perhaps practical too) are what's important to most people including me.

There are plenty of cars that were more tuned to performance in their class. They just compromised some of the amenties for it. I listed such cars in a previous post in this thread.

eh, but we're still being a little hard on the people that want a performance vehicle...you guys can't honestly say that you wouldn't mind the car to be as fast as possible, right? of course...maybe sacrificing the luxury items associated with such a car in order to improve weight and handling isn't the best way to go about it, but there will be some pure sports car fanatics out there that will eventuallly gut the hell out of the RX, removing the stuff that would actually matter like the passenger and rear seats and air conditioning unit...we can't really blame them as that's what they want to use the car for...

to each his own...i think this "debate" is over now and everyone should move on to other topics...

rev instead of just reading one of my posts, you should check out other ones that say I am waiting for the RX-8 to come out to make a proper judgement on it. The G35 Coupe I have driven and really enjoyed, and that would be my choice if the RX-8 didn't work out.

And JUST FOR YOU, I kept putting the line in there "FOR ME", which meant that I realize not everybody is looking at it from my point of view, so for you to start quoting and assuming I mean for everybody is in poor taste.

Regards.

Originally posted by Hercules
rev instead of just reading one of my posts, you should check out other ones that say I am waiting for the RX-8 to come out to make a proper judgement on it. The G35 Coupe I have driven and really enjoyed, and that would be my choice if the RX-8 didn't work out.

And JUST FOR YOU, I kept putting the line in there "FOR ME", which meant that I realize not everybody is looking at it from my point of view, so for you to start quoting and assuming I mean for everybody is in poor taste.

Regards.

Its definitely a step in the right direction! That being said, if you state something that is you opinion, but its obviously not true and can be disproven by facts, then I think it should be corrected. That's how false information spreads.

Originally posted by revhappy


Its definitely a step in the right direction! That being said, if you state something that is you opinion, but its obviously not true and can be disproven by facts, then I think it should be corrected. That's how false information spreads. Yes but none of my opinions can be disproven... argued against sure, but that's why it would just be debate; there's no real answer.

I just can't stand the fact that if I'm paying 30 grand for a car it is a great car in the body of a shitty one, ie, a glorified econobox. I never said that you can take a regular version and slap a turbo on it, and it would be the same; I realize the genious in design. I just don't want to pay 30k+ for a car that is not distinctive in some way, shape or form.

Originally posted by Hercules
Yes but none of my opinions can be disproven... argued against sure, but that's why it would just be debate; there's no real answer.

I just can't stand the fact that if I'm paying 30 grand for a car it is a great car in the body of a shitty one, ie, a glorified econobox. I never said that you can take a regular version and slap a turbo on it, and it would be the same; I realize the genious in design. I just don't want to pay 30k+ for a car that is not distinctive in some way, shape or form.

Dude, i aint trying to sell YOU the car! :D

torque > speed in most applications

imho

Originally posted by Elara
G-Man, while I agree with your post completely, I think that in general you're preaching to the choir. The majority of members here AREN'T obsessed with winnowing every last hundredth of a second- it's a just very vocal minority. If you read back a few months (not that anyone has time to, but IF you did) you'd see a lot of very similar posts to yours(but not quite as well stated!).

Yup not all of us are obsessed with every ounce of speed... you probably saw a topic that made you uncomfortable or just wanna shout. I on the other hand choose the rx-8 for the drivability, reliability, the beauty, and it has enough power to make you impress the ladies. Also I am one of those people that just can't leave a car stock... nothing is wrong with a little more speed, but trying to squeeze your bank account for just a little more hp knowing you have rent to pay is outrageous.

I agree with the original post....
Even my Hayabusa "feels slow today" if I ride it for a few days in a row..
I call it "speed drunk" aka " it is NEVER fast enough".
Should I get that turbo kit???
.
.
.
.
Instead I just rescrew my head on again and realize that it is never enough when you think that way..
Instead I enjoy the nice bike that it is in so many different ways.
Same with my TTRX and MiataR.....

FM

Excellent point. When I test drove my MazdaSpeed Protege it was fast enough to scare me. I had been driving my Probe with the NA 2.0 since '95. Now it still is, but only if I intentionally push it, and my Probe feels like a Yugo. Nice thing is that the MSP will still take a corner faster than I am willing to.

One cool thing I picked up on is a better idea of the smoothness of the rotary. I still have yet to drive one, but I know that it feels like I am pushing my car to take it to redline and I can feel variation in the torque throughout the range. I can't wait to try a rotary and compare the feeling of winding it out.