crazy martial arts moves [Archive]

erog216

10-06-2004, 07:38 PM

grr... watching this makes me feel sick, no offense... its cool to watch, but it makes me cringe when I think that ppl think this stuff is real...

I studied martial arts in Japan..., Okinawa specifically, birth place of karate...

This is the new generation 'sports' martial arts that is more gymnastics, acrobatics then 'classical' or 'traditional' martial arts. Meant purely for display, and has no practical application, any martial arts class that targets teh head with the feet primarily and relies on high speed jumping is about as useful as a butt on the elbow...

Jeet Kun Do is nothing like this, its an evolution of martial arts taking the most basic moves and combining them into one. A good view of this would be seen probably by a man targeting key vital points with straight hits... and honestly, when you watch it, its really really boring... (imagine watching a steven segal film, yeah, honestly, boring right?)

These guys have a lot of flexibility and mobility but just by watching their form, and hand positions, they lack the guard and eye movement to be any good in any form of full contact spare.

Classical or Traditional martial arts are very straight forward... the flashiest of the styles of these types is gungfu (yes gungfu) and tae kwan do. Coincidentally, those 2 styles also are fair the worst in international martial arts tournaments... go figure... basing your attack on spiral movement is about as smart as throwing hooks at an in fighter... easy to block, easy to dodge, leaves you about as open as a nude girltrying to cover herself with her hands...

And before ppl cry that those flashy styles do work b/c Chuck Norris won fight competitions, I'd like you to research who competed and what styles... up until the early 70's, schools only fought schools of the same or very similar styles...

Early UFC's, 1-5 are a perfect example of proof if you want to check it out, no Tae Kwan Do fighter makes it out of the prelims... and right now there is not a single fighter in UFC who uses it as a primary fighting tactic... what do they use?

Akido, Judo, Wrestling, Karate, Thai Kick Boxing, Boxing (new school, not classical), Jujitsu.... among others... all linear forms that minimize angel of attack and concentrate on heavily on defense....

Didn't mean for this to be too long :) I got off work and needed to think about something other than the military for a bit! thanks for being the vent!!!

VelociRedBeast

10-06-2004, 07:49 PM

I've done Shaolin Kung-fu for 7 years and I would woop thier asses(IF they fought like that). Wouldn't be as pretty as what they do but Kung-Fu gets the job done.

gt1

10-06-2004, 07:56 PM

Didn't mean for this to be too long :) I got off work and needed to think about something other than the military for a bit! thanks for being the vent!!!

It was very informative... thanks for spending the time to type it :)

Ajax

10-06-2004, 08:06 PM

BlueEyes

10-06-2004, 08:11 PM

Just learn Krav Maga then kick him in the nuts and her in the box. :D

erog216

10-06-2004, 09:49 PM

Actually, I was kinda irked as I saw the mention of Jeet Kun Do myself. This is nothing like it. There's nothing flashy about JKD except it's unstoppable nature. JKD is so hard to beat because it relies on no special moves, nothing flash and nothing consistent. It is consistently inconsistent, form through formlessness.

The theory goes, if you have a set style, form or technique, all your opponent has to do to beat you is learn that technique and you're done. JKD relies on having no technique to be unbeatable. Now then, in statement that's pretty powerful, in practice, it'd really take years to develop the broken rhythm to the point where it was truly broken.

It's cool to watch this stuff tho..

LOL; so true!

I've always loved the fact that even thought JKD doesn't have any special moves, it basically is a colmination of all the pivotal moves of every other style.

I think its more the fact that any single move could be the last move that makes JKD so powerful. Unfortunately, I've only seen 1 real JKD school in the 4 states I've been in. I honestly wish that they would require names to be trademarked like company names...

Too many times have I stopped by dojo's only to find that the so called 'sensei' there has made up their style...

At my college, they had a Waduryu Karate, which in Okinawa is a traditional style, being taught in a sports style like in this clip. It was just an excuse for the 40 year old perv teacher to grope female students....

I asked him a couple simple questions about his Okinawan based style, and he didn't know where, or what Okinawa was... he thought his style was Japanese... funny isn't it? since Karate is an Okinawan form that was developed to help defend Okinawans from the murderous Japanese who occupied their country...

First rule of learning martial arts, know your history to preserve the style, if you can't appreciate the past, you won't be able to adapt it to the future. If you can, you'll take that with you through every fight and every movement you practice.

However, I can't blame the old man for feeling up college girls... if I was a horny old guy, I'd probably do the same if I could...

guy321

10-06-2004, 09:55 PM

Who did you study under in Okinawa. I studied under a student of Fusie
Kise .. And trained with him a few times when he traveled from Okinawa to Texas.

grr... watching this makes me feel sick, no offense... its cool to watch, but it makes me cringe when I think that ppl think this stuff is real...

I studied martial arts in Japan..., Okinawa specifically, birth place of karate...

This is the new generation 'sports' martial arts that is more gymnastics, acrobatics then 'classical' or 'traditional' martial arts. Meant purely for display, and has no practical application, any martial arts class that targets teh head with the feet primarily and relies on high speed jumping is about as useful as a butt on the elbow...

Jeet Kun Do is nothing like this, its an evolution of martial arts taking the most basic moves and combining them into one. A good view of this would be seen probably by a man targeting key vital points with straight hits... and honestly, when you watch it, its really really boring... (imagine watching a steven segal film, yeah, honestly, boring right?)

These guys have a lot of flexibility and mobility but just by watching their form, and hand positions, they lack the guard and eye movement to be any good in any form of full contact spare.

Classical or Traditional martial arts are very straight forward... the flashiest of the styles of these types is gungfu (yes gungfu) and tae kwan do. Coincidentally, those 2 styles also are fair the worst in international martial arts tournaments... go figure... basing your attack on spiral movement is about as smart as throwing hooks at an in fighter... easy to block, easy to dodge, leaves you about as open as a nude girltrying to cover herself with her hands...

And before ppl cry that those flashy styles do work b/c Chuck Norris won fight competitions, I'd like you to research who competed and what styles... up until the early 70's, schools only fought schools of the same or very similar styles...

Early UFC's, 1-5 are a perfect example of proof if you want to check it out, no Tae Kwan Do fighter makes it out of the prelims... and right now there is not a single fighter in UFC who uses it as a primary fighting tactic... what do they use?

Akido, Judo, Wrestling, Karate, Thai Kick Boxing, Boxing (new school, not classical), Jujitsu.... among others... all linear forms that minimize angel of attack and concentrate on heavily on defense....

Didn't mean for this to be too long :) I got off work and needed to think about something other than the military for a bit! thanks for being the vent!!!

erog216

10-06-2004, 10:00 PM

Okinawan Shoryn Ryu Karate and Kobudo Federation, same style as you, Master Fusei Kise right?

I studied under Craig Hodgekins, I think only the 3rd 5th Degree blackbelt that was an American to be a student of Fusei Kise at the time.

It was a great time, wish I would have kept it up, been a while since i practiced seriously, but the love of it will always stay with you. The old official site has his picture on it, along with about 4 of my articles that I wrote when I was younger about testing...

I hit 2nd degree at 16, took me 3 years to get it, and I was allowed to test with the adults, so I didn't have that odd looking white stripe. My fight was with a 36 year old marine who kicked the crap out of me for a solid 15 minutes... he was a 4th degree black belt at the time. Don't feel bad about it, other than the fact that my father was watching, and so was Master Fusei Kise, and my instructor... along with all my class...

I was part of the Tengan Dojo, I think it ended after Hodgekins moved back to the states about 6 months after I left. He opened a new practice in Penn, of course, in the traditional style.

guy321

10-06-2004, 10:03 PM

Yes, same style. Master Kise is soo small .. like 4' tall but he really kicks ass.. even without flipping LOL.. He was a bit mellow when I met him.. I was told by an older buddy who studied under him in Okinawa in the early 80's that he was a mean old bastard back then.

guy321

10-06-2004, 10:04 PM

I think I met Craig Hodgkins. I travelled to Beeville texas back in the 90's

erog216

10-06-2004, 10:10 PM

LOL, did he do a demonstration while you were there? or no?

He used to do them all the time and they were impromptu... I know because I was one of hte poor saps who had to attack him. He used to take down about 5 of us in about 15-20 seconds coming about 3-4 seconds apart...

Thankfully we all knew how to 'land', its amazing how high a 4 foot guy can throw you...

And did you ever get to see him use the sword? If you find the old site, should be a picture of 4 men on their hands and knees with a woman laying on top with her blouse removed so that a raddish was on her stomach...

His accuracy with that thing is insane... coming down with 3 seperate strokes in about 1-2 seconds total, chopping that thing into 3 solid pieces without leaving a mark on teh woman...

I've always been amazed by the displays these guys can put on. Each master was amazing in his own right, so much talent on a 60 by 3 mile island...

guy321

10-06-2004, 10:12 PM

He demo'd and he and his top instructors trained us in sort of a "boot camp"

Oh yeah.. he literally.. TOUCHED my wrist.. and I droped to the ground.

I did not get to see him with a sword. :(

LOL, did he do a demonstration while you were there? or no?

He used to do them all the time and they were impromptu... I know because I was one of hte poor saps who had to attack him. He used to take down about 5 of us in about 15-20 seconds coming about 3-4 seconds apart...

Thankfully we all knew how to 'land', its amazing how high a 4 foot guy can throw you...

And did you ever get to see him use the sword? If you find the old site, should be a picture of 4 men on their hands and knees with a woman laying on top with her blouse removed so that a raddish was on her stomach...

His accuracy with that thing is insane... coming down with 3 seperate strokes in about 1-2 seconds total, chopping that thing into 3 solid pieces without leaving a mark on teh woman...

I've always been amazed by the displays these guys can put on. Each master was amazing in his own right, so much talent on a 60 by 3 mile island...

erog216

10-06-2004, 10:15 PM

LOL, so he used tu-ee-te... or 'tweety' lol

Amazing techniques, if you master that with just one hand you can bring down any opponent who grabs you. Coincidently, the person who developed that retired in argentina... LOL, so go figure where a specific brazilian style developed the same moves...

Wait a second? What rank are you and are you an assistant instructor or instructor to be taken over there? LOL; private lessons with Master Kise are hard to get... just curious :)

guy321

10-06-2004, 10:21 PM

:D DOn't worry about me. Im nobody!

erog216

10-06-2004, 10:24 PM

grr, lol, to get to go train in Okinawa, private lessons, :) mmm, you gotta be a somebody, either that or one of Larry Isaac's favorite students... or whoever directs teh Texas branch :)

oh well :)
:p

guy321

10-06-2004, 10:30 PM

I've never been to Okinawa. Master Kise went to Texas. I actually tested under him and recieved a certificate signed by him.

guy321

10-06-2004, 10:31 PM

Was it just me.. or did he look like an Ewok?!

erog216

10-06-2004, 10:34 PM

lol, his beard was cool...

mmm, but then again I haven't seen him in a good 7 years...

Ah, testing, I hated the pushups, god, 50 pushups on a wooden floor on your front two knuckles... if they didn't split open then, they would split open the next time you sparred heavily or practiced on the heavy bag... bleh :) heh, well, good night :) i'm outta here

guy321

10-06-2004, 10:37 PM

good night!!

Yeah, my knuckles hate me :(

Speed-ER doc

10-06-2004, 10:45 PM

As stated above, I noticed that they left their faces wide open when they came out of their flip/spin. One punch and out.

Neat to watch, not so good in a fight.

BlueFrenzy

10-07-2004, 02:45 AM

those were some nice moves.

whoa whoa ... hold on with the Tae Kwon Do and Kung fu bashing. I know you guys are going to flame me to death on this one.

I totally agree with you guys when you say those moves in the video are flashy and would not be useful in a real fight. Mind you these are DEMOSTRATIONS of the martial artist's physical prowess.

I don't know if any of you have taken on a full power TKD kick but let me tell you, they are up there with the Muay Thai kicks. They aren't all flashy spinning kicks.
Much of the strategy is to psyche out your opponent with speed, diversions and going for their openings. I believe that this is the ultimate goal of many martial arts ... to go for an opening .. be it from block and counter punch, redirection and grapple, kicking the guys nuts, or *gasp* a TKD fake speedy low kick to a full out roundhouse to the midsection.

There are schools that emphasize the show but others the sparring aspects. I believe that this must be true in the other styles. Unfortunately we live in a world where not all schools are as good as others ... people trying to make a buck instead of instilling proper training.

When we pit martial arts against each other, it's comparing apples to oranges. Every style is going to claim that they are being limited by rules set out by the competition .. some styles adapt easier to the rules (ie brazilian jujitsu). Another thing, these fighters may be of different skill levels so again, we are comparing individuals rather than styles. To be honest, in the first UFC, many of these fighters were unknowns but were hyped up to be champions in their respective styles. I have a friend who is CRAZY about sumo ... and that fellow that appeared was unfamiliar. It's like saying wushu is better than Muay Thai after witnessing a wushu master beat on a rookie thai boxer. yes, the more linear arts such as wrestling, jujitsu, etc do well in UFC but is it valid in the real world? Maybe, depends on your situation. If you're strong, hulking and can take lots of punishment like the fellows in UFC, then the grappling and brute force is effective for you. If you're smaller and slight, perhaps aikido or karate is for you.

In the end, I think that we shouldn't judge other arts for it's "trademark moves". As mentioned a million times by JKD practitioners and Bruce Lee ... take in what you believe to useful and reject what isn't. I use to have a terrible prejudice against Karate, but have learned that their punching and blocking was superior to that of TKD.

Can't we all get along??? ha ha :)

Luftwaffle

10-07-2004, 10:20 AM

I'm gonna have to go ahead and agree with my friend Frenzy here. All that UFC and Pride fighting crap is BS. It all depends on what form benefits the most from their rules. I wouldn't consider that stuff all out unless the fighter is allowed to beat the crap out of his opponent's nuts, gouge out eyes and basically go for every soft, vital and painful spot available on the human body. One of the main aspects of kung-fu is to strike at vital points which are not allowed in a match like this.

I've seen this UFC and Pride stuff on TV a few times cause my friends make me watch it for some strange reason. Unless one fighter is a striker, the whole thing is a homo-erotic hugging match. My friends apparently wanted me to watch two very large men, clad in speedos, hug each other on the floor until the other gave up from the hugging. Why my friends wanted to expose me to this is their own business and I'd rather not know about it, but it did seem very questionable.

Bob, don't start me by saying kung-fu (yes, Kung-fu, you can phoneticize it all you want, it doesn't matter how you spell it in english, and if you want to be more accurate, you can say gongfu rather than gungfu) is simply a flashy style with no real use in actual fighting. First, kung-fu is not just one style, it is any of the styles of Chinese self defense, ranging from wu-shu to tai chi or shaolin to chin na. Each having its own uses. The forms themselves may not be as powerful or radical as the new modern forms, however the concepts and ideas behind the forms ultimately lead to JKD. There was a documentary that talked of a shaolin disciple practicing boxing in his spare time. When asked why he did this when all this shaolin art was readily available to him, he said, "Shaolin is good for balancing the mind and body and perfecting form, but for power and agility, boxing is better." I submit that many kung-fu styles lack the fighting ability that other forms have, but to say that they're flashy pieces of crap is just plain wrong. Kung-fu can guide the mind and the body to form new methods rather than just keep practicing the same methods over and over. (I wonder which culture created guns and then decided they weren't honorable and then opted back for swords purely based on "tradition and honor." - Sorry folks, gotta take a stab at erog for being his Japocentric self.) Adaptability is the key to JKD, which is arguably one of the best forms created.

Incidentally, if you watch any of these competitions for acrobatic martial arts performance things. You'll find that most of the entries come from Shotokan dojos. So don't say it's just traditional Chinese or traditional Korean martial arts doing this fancy worthless crap. Any striking based martial art could be behind this stuff.

Still, in today's setting, arguing over who's style can beat whom's is rather fruitless. Bruce Lee said it best: "I don't care how good a fighter you are, if I have a gun, *pffft*"

Edit: Yeah, the movie's all flash. Heck, the guy actually does breakdancing moves in it.

BRx8

10-07-2004, 10:59 AM

hehe, i'd have to disagree with you Luftwaffe...UFC and Pride is exactly what martial arts were designed to be about - self defense...UFC and Pride pit the best of martial arts against each other to see who can defend better

when i first started watching UFC and Pride i felt the exact same way, i felt violated watching two sweaty guys rolling around on the ground...after subsequent matches and learning what they are actually doing, you begin to understand and appreciate the technique involved in what they do - getting control on the ground through varous guards - full and half guards, full and half mounts, using various techniques while on the ground like arm bars, kimuras, americanas, anacondas, knee locks, ankle locks, etc.

In essence, fighters in UFC and Pride are "real" martial artists put in very real situations, situations that could cost you a broken arm or leg and what is necessary to defend against it...why don't boxing, tae kwon do, kung fu, etc. type of martial arts fare well in MMA (mixed martial arts)? because they are restricted by too many rules, too many katas, too much flash...Kung Fu looks great in movies and when fighting someone else doing Kung Fu but in everyday real life practical situations, it just wouldn't work and UFC/Pride shows this...martial arts purists will call it crap but this is very real - those bound by too many sets of rules WILL lose in a real fight! Muay Thai, IMO, is the closest to raw practicality that there is in martial arts, it's straight up punches, knees, elbows, and grabs - absolutely no flash

if you guys missed it, i posted some vids up of my favorite MMA from Pride, Kazushi Sakuraba...i'll post them again here

Kazushi Sakuraba (warning, he dislocates a couple of people's joints in this vid) (http://www.sherdog.com/videos/download.asp?v_header=Kazushi%20Sakuraba%20Highlig hts&quality=High Quality&dl=highlights/17-KazushiSakurabaHQ.zip)

Royce (watch this!!!) (http://www.sherdog.com/videos/download.asp?v_header=Royce%20Gracie%20vs%20Kazush i%20Sakuraba%20Highlights&quality=High Quality&dl=highlights/08-PrideGPRoyceSakHQ.zip)

canaryrx8

10-07-2004, 11:01 AM

all must bow down to Kung Pow! that's the real deal :D

BRx8

10-07-2004, 11:13 AM

MadRonin

10-07-2004, 11:38 AM

I wonder which culture created guns and then decided they weren't honorable and then opted back for swords purely based on "tradition and honor." - Sorry folks, gotta take a stab at erog for being his Japocentric self.
The Japanese did not invent firearms; they got them from the Portuguese. And don't be fooled by what you see in Samurai movies. Samurai are just as romanticised in movies and books as European knights. Given the opportunity, a Samurai would use any weapons at his disposal. The firearm was a major part of Japanese warfare before, through, and beyond the Meji era.

Luftwaffle

10-07-2004, 01:53 PM

Oh, it's Ming gets shot down all around the house today. :D

Ok, let's start. B - I'll grant that a Pride fighter could take down a Kung-fu fighter, I'm not saying that a kung-fu martial artist could take down a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu fighter. There's no chance in hell that would really happen. I'm just trying to say that Kung-fu isn't a worthless art. My main beef with stuff like Pride and UFC is that there are too many rules to get in the way. If these guys want to throw their life on the line by beating the crap outta each other with everything they got in their arsenal, more power to them. Don't go messing up the fight by throwing abstract things like rules into the mix because in a real life situation managing to fight someone unarmed versus unarmed simply boils down to no rules. If I were ever in a situation where I didn't have a weapon and the other guy didn't have a weapon, I'd first make it my priority to find a weapon and go for the spots that are against the rules. That would be a real life situation, if Pride fighting wants to be considered real life fighting, it should be like that. Maybe without weapons lying around, but definitely the ability to slaughter the opponent with every trick up your sleeve. Brutal, I know, but it's just the way I feel.

Oh yeah, that collection is pretty sweet, my friend showed that link to me yesterday when it was at 3.5k. If i had 5 or 6k to throw around, I'd consider taking it.

MadRonin - I didn't know that. Back in college, Erog had told me that the Japanese had invented firearms and dropped the idea in favor of sword duels. I'm genuinely interested now, when did they get them from the Portuguese abouts? Sorry for my misunderstanding. Also, don't mind my bickering with Erog, we've been having all sorts of arguments since college.

If anything doesn't make sense, I apologize ahead of time. I ate a maverick tuna melt on Monday and it has kicked my ass for the past 3 days. :p

BRx8

10-07-2004, 02:13 PM

Ok, let's start. B - I'll grant that a Pride fighter could take down a Kung-fu fighter, I'm not saying that a kung-fu martial artist could take down a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu fighter. There's no chance in hell that would really happen. I'm just trying to say that Kung-fu isn't a worthless art. My main beef with stuff like Pride and UFC is that there are too many rules to get in the way. If these guys want to throw their life on the line by beating the crap outta each other with everything they got in their arsenal, more power to them. Don't go messing up the fight by throwing abstract things like rules into the mix because in a real life situation managing to fight someone unarmed versus unarmed simply boils down to no rules. If I were ever in a situation where I didn't have a weapon and the other guy didn't have a weapon, I'd first make it my priority to find a weapon and go for the spots that are against the rules. That would be a real life situation, if Pride fighting wants to be considered real life fighting, it should be like that. Maybe without weapons lying around, but definitely the ability to slaughter the opponent with every trick up your sleeve. Brutal, I know, but it's just the way I feel.

Ming, i must disagree again! :D

Pride is the closest you're going to get to watching "real" fighting without it being illegal...i still don't know what these rules are that you're speaking of...Pride has very minimal rules - no eye gouging, headbutts, and no hits to the groin are really the only contact rules there are while in traditional martial arts competitions there are FAR more rules like sweeping the knee, stopping after each hit, out of bounds, etc...as i've said before you can just about do anything you want in MMA - a Kung Fu expert can throw any type of punch/kick to anywhere on the opponent's body sans groin/eyes...as a testament to this, i've seen many, MANY broken body parts - arms, legs, clavicles, eye sockets, etc. from locks, strikes, and slams...the fact is, this pretty much is the most honorable form of fighting you can get - man vs. man with no uncontrolled variables such as weapons

as for Kung Fu and many other traiditonal martial arts, i never thought it was worthless, i think it's a beautiful art that would have worked well yesteryear...at this point, everyone has learned from it and evolved from traditional martial arts to today's extreme mixed martial arts...the traditional arts can still be used as a base of knowledge, all i'm implying is that if i were to meet an attacker in a dark alley i'd sure as hell would rather know how to immobilize the guy by taking him down and putting a rear naked choke on him or breaking one of his limbs rather than try and scare him with Snake and Crane technique ;)

PS - if you want to watch some REAL REAL fighting with no rules at all, watch Bum Fights...you'll see it's not very fun to watch because all they do is swing rampantly into the air...it's fun only for a little while

MadRonin

10-07-2004, 02:27 PM

MadRonin - I didn't know that. Back in college, Erog had told me that the Japanese had invented firearms and dropped the idea in favor of sword duels. I'm genuinely interested now, when did they get them from the Portuguese abouts? Sorry for my misunderstanding.
The Portuguese first landed in Japan, by accident, in 1542. The first known firearm in Japan was dated to 1547. While I'm sure that Japan probably acquired guns from Portugal before 1547, this is the earliest record that I'm aware of.

Luftwaffle

10-07-2004, 02:39 PM

I'm down with the bum fights, that's what I'm talking about. :D

When someone says Pride fighting is the closest I get to real fighting without it being illegal, I believe them. However, I think that the fact that it's only the "closest" does not mean necessarily that it is a perfectly accurate gauge on the worth of a fighting style. *I am not condoning illegal fighting right here.* Illegal matches I feel would be the most accurate gauge of real life fighting. Basically, I'm saying real life fighting is the only way to see what does the best in real life fighting. All those styles that do well in Pride do well in Pride, it doesn't necessarily equate (although it entirely may) to being the best unarmed versus unarmed fighting style created for the simple reason of those few vital restrictions. Naturally, this is just my opinion and you don't have to take it seriously.

Personally, the style of fighting I'd rather bring to a survivaly fight is marksmanship and a good 10 foot distance. :p

I understand that you don't think Kung-fu is worthless, but Bob likes throwing that sort of thing out just to push my buttons. I just have to make sure that no one actually takes him too seriously when he starts saying stuff like that. He always has some valid points, but he tends to get carried away sometimes.

Luftwaffle

10-07-2004, 02:49 PM

The Portuguese first landed in Japan, by accident, in 1542. The first known firearm in Japan was dated to 1547. While I'm sure that Japan probably acquired guns from Portugal before 1547, this is the earliest record that I'm aware of.

/minihijack

Seems as if that's the general consensus on the date. I did a little digging, apparently since introduction of firearms by these shipwrecked Portuguese sailors, the matchlock based "Tanegashima" was produced and used for 300 years. Anyone interested can check this link.

http://www.nihonto.com/RELATEDmatchlock.html

/unhijack

erog216

10-07-2004, 04:29 PM

/minihijack

Seems as if that's the general consensus on the date. I did a little digging, apparently since introduction of firearms by these shipwrecked Portuguese sailors, the matchlock based "Tanegashima" was produced and used for 300 years. Anyone interested can check this link.

http://www.nihonto.com/RELATEDmatchlock.html

/unhijack

You must not have been listening to me luftwaffle... :)

Seriously, I said they didn't invent guns... I said they had the option to use guns then totally bailed on it...

History of rifle use reunited Japan in 1600 under Nobunaga and Toshiyama (I think the later is his name, could be someone else, been a while). That's why in anime in this time frame you always hear reference to the "Oni", which was Nobunaga... he used teh gun to reunite Japan.

But after the reunificiation, the nobles overthrough Toshiyama (might be the wrong name) after a failed war against Korea, took control of Japan and then guns really did not play a major role till 1850 during the Meiji Restoration...

grr... I never said they invented the gun, the Japanese first got them in the 1550's to 1590's... the Spanish had them way before that...

Jesus, misquoting me is the worst! I just said that they didn't have guns... was the point...

As for this rules BS you are talking about, the original UFC's only had eyeguaguing and ball hitting as illegal... in Pride its headbutts, eye gauging and ball knocking...

I'm not sure what you are looking for if you say there are rules... I really can't see mister shaolin master fondling some man's nuts...

Bleh, and I said Gung Fu and Tae Kwan Do weren't as effective because of their lack of transferrence to a mixed martial arts setting...

However, if a trained fighter of those ranks fought someone with no formal training, fo course he would kick their butt. Kung Fu has many styles, some of the radical styles of Kung FU are actually very linear... and amazingly powerful, but in general about 90% of the Kung FU taught here in the States along with Tae Kwan Do are actually absolute crap...

I'd say about 60% of all the martial arts in the US is total garbage... based solely on older men groping women or just a preverse form of ballet...

But that's just my opinion and you are right ming, Shotokan is a heavy favorite in sports martial arts. However if you read their sites, its almost funny, because the shotokan I knew in Okinawa was teh shotokan where you were hit with bats as you did your kata where here it is jumping 10 feet in the air and acting like peter pan...

Its all about adaptation, honestly, Great Expectations was an awesome book, but it made a horrible movie. That's basically what happened to alot of traditional styles that came over here, that broke away over here... oh well, later, I'm off to school...

Audioslave8

10-07-2004, 05:20 PM

CGRX- love your sig, lol office space is the best

guy321

10-07-2004, 05:24 PM

Shotokan was originaly based of of Okinawan forms and taken to Japan as a sport in the 40's and 50's.

Alot of the forms, especially the beginning forms are the same.

There SHOULD be no flying at all in shotokan.

There should be very few kicks over the waist.

Mugatu

10-07-2004, 05:50 PM

All those people have NOTHING on this guy here (http://media.ebaumsworld.com/afroninja.mpg)

:)

Luftwaffle

10-07-2004, 05:57 PM

You must not have been listening to me luftwaffle... :)

Seriously, I said they didn't invent guns... I said they had the option to use guns then totally bailed on it...

History of rifle use reunited Japan in 1600 under Nobunaga and Toshiyama (I think the later is his name, could be someone else, been a while). That's why in anime in this time frame you always hear reference to the "Oni", which was Nobunaga... he used teh gun to reunite Japan.

But after the reunificiation, the nobles overthrough Toshiyama (might be the wrong name) after a failed war against Korea, took control of Japan and then guns really did not play a major role till 1850 during the Meiji Restoration...

grr... I never said they invented the gun, the Japanese first got them in the 1550's to 1590's... the Spanish had them way before that...

Jesus, misquoting me is the worst! I just said that they didn't have guns... was the point...

As for this rules BS you are talking about, the original UFC's only had eyeguaguing and ball hitting as illegal... in Pride its headbutts, eye gauging and ball knocking...

I'm not sure what you are looking for if you say there are rules... I really can't see mister shaolin master fondling some man's nuts...

Bleh, and I said Gung Fu and Tae Kwan Do weren't as effective because of their lack of transferrence to a mixed martial arts setting...

However, if a trained fighter of those ranks fought someone with no formal training, fo course he would kick their butt. Kung Fu has many styles, some of the radical styles of Kung FU are actually very linear... and amazingly powerful, but in general about 90% of the Kung FU taught here in the States along with Tae Kwan Do are actually absolute crap...

I'd say about 60% of all the martial arts in the US is total garbage... based solely on older men groping women or just a preverse form of ballet...

But that's just my opinion and you are right ming, Shotokan is a heavy favorite in sports martial arts. However if you read their sites, its almost funny, because the shotokan I knew in Okinawa was teh shotokan where you were hit with bats as you did your kata where here it is jumping 10 feet in the air and acting like peter pan...

Its all about adaptation, honestly, Great Expectations was an awesome book, but it made a horrible movie. That's basically what happened to alot of traditional styles that came over here, that broke away over here... oh well, later, I'm off to school...

I only misquote you as much as you misquote me, sir. :D

In any event, I think everything is straightened out now and I can stop bickering. Oh yeah, I'm staying away from all fish products for the next month. Tuna melts not made by me are now deemed unclean and unfit for human consumption. I can't even move my neck right now. :(

veilsidev1

10-07-2004, 07:58 PM

Luftwaffle

10-07-2004, 09:02 PM

ok, now i have to write something because some of the stuff people wrote here made me mad. I am 17, I started tkd when i was 7 and fell in love with the sport, I felt unstoppable when i reached black belt. At about 12 I started seeing fighting more realistic after watching pride and ufc and took up vale tudo. A combination of muay thai kickboxing and brazilian jiu-jitsu. Now I am beggining my ameteur carrer and have a record of 17-0-1. My trainers see alot of potential in me (especially for my age) and say i could be big and give me extra attention in training. Enough about me, lets talk about the arts. TKD is good excercise and gave me the basis and strong legs i needed for muay thai, but a tornado kick is no match for a pefectly placed roundhouse to the knees. For those #@$%@$# who said ufc and pride fc is not real, c'mon. These are the absolute best fighters in the world, these guys have complete knowledge of ground and stand up fighting ususally consisting of BJJ, wrestling, muay thai, boxing or any combination of these. Kung fu, please. This martial art has been forever overated for so long, it's eyecandy, just look at kung fu and karate guys that have entered ufc or pride, they have been tossed around like rags, they don't even compete anymore because they know that they couldent even hurt a well conditioned, fast, strong fighter with muy thai and Brazilian jui-jitsu cannot even inflict pain on these peolple. I feel much better, long live vale tudo, long live professional organized fighting.

Whoa, whoa there. I'm not saying you can't fight or that what you do isn't really, really tough. Re-read what I've typed and what everyone else has typed. I'm pretty sure most of what you're referring to was directed to what I posted. If you took offense, I'm sorry. Basically, the point I've been trying to put across the entire time is that Pride and UFC cannot be considered equivalent to real fighting such as would occur if some drunken fool decided they didn't like you at a bar. That's plain and simple. The fact that there are restrictions in organized fighting make it not like real life situation fighting which is more chaotic. If you're trying to tell me that an organized time bout between two guys in a ring with a referee is the exact same thing as two guys surrounded by a group of other equally drunken and belligerent guys on the street is the exact same thing, then you'll need to explain this a little more clearly to me. Professional fighting does not equal street fighting. I think you're reading a little too deep if you think I've said that professional fighters aren't tough.

No one, not even I have said that the base traditional martial arts could even begin to match the modern developed ones. Looking at the track record for these competitions pretty much all classical martial arts aren't placed into contention anywhere. Does this mean they're worthless? Hell no. Just because your martial art can beat up my martial art doesn't mean that my martial art is useless. There are other things in life that exist other than just beating the crap outta some other guy who wants to face you. I, personally, find that balancing the mind and body is much more useful than bashing some guy's head in with my knees and elbows.

You're 17 right? You, are interested in Vale Tudo and Pride and UFC and all that stuff. That's great, don't get hurt, have fun. Why do you feel that it's necessary for everyone to know that you're 17-0-1? Why do you think I should know that your trainers see potential in you? Basically, why in the world are you validating yourself to a bunch of strangers on an internet forum? I don't care about this, other people might, I don't. This sort of thing makes me yawn, it's some kind of mental masturbation/ego stroking that gets on my nerves. If you want to be the best and succeed at this stuff, go for it, more power to you. You don't need to rationalize why you're doing this for me or anyone else but yourself. If you're doing this to impress other people, you're doing it for the wrong reason. If you're doing it to impress yourself, then you will achieve that potential your instructors see. But, why should you listen to me? I'm just some asshole on an internet forum. You don't have to prove to anyone that the style you chose is the best, if you think it's the best then keep doing it. This is exactly like all those RX-8 vs. 350z vs. 3-year-old's Tricycle threads I keep reading.

Oh yeah, and as good as your fighting style is, guns are better.*

*This is just a hint, if you feel immortal, I believe this is a bad thing that can get you really hurt out there in the real world. Be careful and don't pick fights with small, devious looking people. :p

BRx8

10-07-2004, 10:01 PM

Basically, the point I've been trying to put across the entire time is that Pride and UFC cannot be considered equivalent to real fighting such as would occur if some drunken fool decided they didn't like you at a bar. That's plain and simple. The fact that there are restrictions in organized fighting make it not like real life situation fighting which is more chaotic. If you're trying to tell me that an organized time bout between two guys in a ring with a referee is the exact same thing as two guys surrounded by a group of other equally drunken and belligerent guys on the street is the exact same thing, then you'll need to explain this a little more clearly to me. Professional fighting does not equal street fighting. I think you're reading a little too deep if you think I've said that professional fighters aren't tough.

hey Ming, sorry for picking on you all day today but i have to disagree again...you're comparing "two drunken and belligerent guys on the street" vs. well seasoned mixed martial arts professionals, those drunken guys WILL get their asses kicked...you're talking irrational nonsensical barrroom fighters against people that do it for a living...dude, these guys train every waking second to be able to hit and take hits...people that can immobilize you and whatever weapon you have in your hand within seconds, get you on the ground, and snap your neck like a twig...why are there referees? so they don't end up killing each other and permanently injuring the opponent! i've seen so many countless matches that end in referee stoppage because the losing competitor can no longer defend themselves properly...the winnign competitor is in such a rush of adrenaline he can't even stop striking to notice that his opponent is knocked out...that is what the referee is for...how can you compare a drunken joe-shmoe to the same drunken professional fighter that has the knowledge to neutralize any form of attack, take you down, set you up with quick rabbit punches to the head and while you're unknowingly covering your face he quickly leans and turns his hips towards your head and applies an arm bar, dislocating your elbow?

these Pride fighters are seasoned and trained in self control - when faced in situations they don't panic, they think of the best move to counter your attack...in essence, these guys are the same barroom fighters you speak of, only trained IN barroom fighting if that was even a martial art! they are, in essence, pit fighters

Oh yeah, and as good as your fighting style is, guns are better.*

*This is just a hint, if you feel immortal, I believe this is a bad thing that can get you really hurt out there in the real world. Be careful and don't pick fights with small, devious looking people. :p

and then we hit a point we can agree on!
;)

no martial arts is going to take on a guy with a gun or even someone with mace :)

Razpewton

10-08-2004, 06:02 AM

Forget the martial arts....I find agile, chubby chicks exotic as hell.

i want her

TODreamer

10-08-2004, 06:12 AM

that was a lot of garbage.... you pull that in a real fight and they'll laugh their ass off at you before they whoop your ass

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 06:57 AM

hey Ming, sorry for picking on you all day today but i have to disagree again...you're comparing "two drunken and belligerent guys on the street" vs. well seasoned mixed martial arts professionals, those drunken guys WILL get their asses kicked...you're talking irrational nonsensical barrroom fighters against people that do it for a living...dude, these guys train every waking second to be able to hit and take hits...people that can immobilize you and whatever weapon you have in your hand within seconds, get you on the ground, and snap your neck like a twig...why are there referees? so they don't end up killing each other and permanently injuring the opponent! i've seen so many countless matches that end in referee stoppage because the losing competitor can no longer defend themselves properly...the winnign competitor is in such a rush of adrenaline he can't even stop striking to notice that his opponent is knocked out...that is what the referee is for...how can you compare a drunken joe-shmoe to the same drunken professional fighter that has the knowledge to neutralize any form of attack, take you down, set you up with quick rabbit punches to the head and while you're unknowingly covering your face he quickly leans and turns his hips towards your head and applies an arm bar, dislocating your elbow?

these Pride fighters are seasoned and trained in self control - when faced in situations they don't panic, they think of the best move to counter your attack...in essence, these guys are the same barroom fighters you speak of, only trained IN barroom fighting if that was even a martial art! they are, in essence, pit fighters

That's fine B, I enjoy level, open ended discussion. It keeps me on my toes. ;)

I think I've been explaining my situations from the completely wrong angle. I'll try to keep coherency from this point on. Take the professional fighters OUT of the organized match and put them on the street in a walled off area with no one there to watch over them. The one who walks away wins. No refs, no rounds, no restrictions. Just two opponents facing each other. That's the type of match that would best gauge the worth of a fighting style.

Granted this may not be entirely LEGAL, but I think it would be the most accurate gauge.

Edit: Oh yeah, I think there is a style of fighting created that was developed completely around survival in street and bar fights. I forgot what it was called though, I think it originated in Finland or Sweden. Maybe veilsidev1 can help me out here.

hotpot

10-08-2004, 07:39 AM

So, Bruce Lee, my hero, the King of Kung Fu, was a ... wimp? :eek:

Why did I read this thread?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh, my world's crumbling down... :(

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 07:47 AM

Bruce Lee was no wimp. He is my hero.

It'd be nice to see how his JKD could match up against the new styles. He had striking and trapping down, but the extent of his ground fighting is questionable. It's too bad he had that "allergic reaction to cold medicine," if you believe that story...

VelociRedBeast

10-08-2004, 07:54 AM

Bruce Lee is my hero too! I watch Enter the Dragon ALL THE TIME. That's what got me into Kung-Fu when I was 9 but I stopped when I moved at 16 and can't find a good dojo in my area, all the ones here know nothing about Shaolin, my old instructor was a 70 year old Shaolin master who could move better than most 20 year olds that I know.

MadRonin

10-08-2004, 09:01 AM

no martial arts is going to take on a guy with a gun or even someone with mace :)
I have to disagree with you. A well trained martial artist could easily close a short distance (7 yards or less) against an armed opponent with minimal damage to themselves, especially if they moved in a zig-zag pattern. It's not easy to hit a moving target with a gun, even for a trained professional such as a police officer. If the gunman still had their weapon in the holster, the likelyhood of them drawing and shooting before the MA closes the gap is pretty slim.

Mace is not an effective deterrent. Some people are not affected the same way as others. Better yet, there are people who make themselves immune to the effects by spraying themselves. I knew a guy who worked for me that used to sit in a car with his buddies and spray mace (LE Grade) so that they could build up a tolerance for it. He said it made it easier to fight off cops and to assault women. Real stand-up kind of guy. Last I heard he was in prison.

hotpot

10-08-2004, 09:10 AM

So if MadRonin, who is very well trained in handling guns, faces a well trained martial artist, MadRonin would lose even with his gun in hand? Man, I thought you were goooood. :(

I have to disagree with you. A well trained martial artist could easily close a short distance (7 yards or less) against an armed opponent with minimal damage to themselves, especially if they moved in a zig-zag pattern. It's not easy to hit a moving target with a gun, even for a trained professional such as a police officer. If the gunman still had their weapon in the holster, the likelyhood of them drawing and shooting before the MA closes the gap is pretty slim.

Mace is not an effective deterrent. Some people are not affected the same way as others. Better yet, there are people who make themselves immune to the effects by spraying themselves. I knew a guy who worked for me that used to sit in a car with his buddies and spray mace (LE Grade) so that they could build up a tolerance for it. He said it made it easier to fight off cops and to assault women. Real stand-up kind of guy. Last I heard he was in prison.

MadRonin

10-08-2004, 09:39 AM

So if MadRonin, who is very well trained in handling guns, faces a well trained martial artist, MadRonin would lose even with his gun in hand? Man, I thought you were goooood. :(
Depends on the situation. Don't forget, I am also a well trained martial artist. ;)

I ALWAYS go into every situation knowing I will win. Whether I do or not is another story. :D

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 09:48 AM

I have to disagree with you. A well trained martial artist could easily close a short distance (7 yards or less) against an armed opponent with minimal damage to themselves, especially if they moved in a zig-zag pattern. It's not easy to hit a moving target with a gun, even for a trained professional such as a police officer. If the gunman still had their weapon in the holster, the likelyhood of them drawing and shooting before the MA closes the gap is pretty slim.

Zig-zag pattern at 20 feet is not going to help you in close distance to a gunman. Serpentine motion is best at longer ranges where bullet lag and leading the target come into play. Running like that will only give your attacker more time to react to your actions and what you're trying to pull.

The only situation where a well trained MA would stand a chance against and untrained, undrawn gunman would be at a distance of less than 5 feet. At this proximity, an MA could take down and incapacitate a non-quickdraw gunman before he could pull his weapon.

A smart or trained gunman would, at all times have his weapon drawn and aimed at his opponent, leave no openings for closing distance, and always believe that at any point his opponent could either become armed or pull something tricky. A quickdraw artist can pull a gun, shoot a hole through a penny at 20 paces, and re-holster in less than the time you can sneeze.

An MA at any out of arm's reach distance versus a gunman is at a severe disadvantage. Basically, I know the guy has to come close to me at some point if he wants to try anything, which means at least once there will be a span of time where he will have to rush directly at me without his lateral movement varying. At this point, he becomes a non-moving, growing target. It's not that hard to miss something like this. Also, an MA has 2 arms, 2 legs and 1 head to attack with, a gunman has at least 7 bullets in a clip. :p

Don't fight armed people. Plain and simple.

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 09:49 AM

Depends on the situation. Don't forget, I am also a well trained martial artist. ;)

I ALWAYS go into every situation knowing I will win. Whether I do or not is another story. :D

I consider running away and living a win. Especially, if I can find the guy later and set a bag of flaming poo on his porch. :D

MadRonin

10-08-2004, 10:30 AM

Zig-zag pattern at 20 feet is not going to help you in close distance to a gunman. Serpentine motion is best at longer ranges where bullet lag and leading the target come into play. Running like that will only give your attacker more time to react to your actions and what you're trying to pull.

The only situation where a well trained MA would stand a chance against and untrained, undrawn gunman would be at a distance of less than 5 feet. At this proximity, an MA could take down and incapacitate a non-quickdraw gunman before he could pull his weapon.

A smart or trained gunman would, at all times have his weapon drawn and aimed at his opponent, leave no openings for closing distance, and always believe that at any point his opponent could either become armed or pull something tricky. A quickdraw artist can pull a gun, shoot a hole through a penny at 20 paces, and re-holster in less than the time you can sneeze.

An MA at any out of arm's reach distance versus a gunman is at a severe disadvantage. Basically, I know the guy has to come close to me at some point if he wants to try anything, which means at least once there will be a span of time where he will have to rush directly at me without his lateral movement varying. At this point, he becomes a non-moving, growing target. It's not that hard to miss something like this. Also, an MA has 2 arms, 2 legs and 1 head to attack with, a gunman has at least 7 bullets in a clip. :p

Don't fight armed people. Plain and simple. Again I disagree. We are talking about a street fight, not a showdown.

Say you are carrying a handgun concealed and are walking down a street at night. As you round the corner a man roughly 15 feet (5yds) away suddenly charges you. The man is of average build. It takes him less than two seconds to clear the distance. Before you can reach, draw, de-safety, and fire your gun, the man is on top of you. If you continue to draw your gun, there is an excellent chance the man could kill you. What do you do?

I know from first hand experience that all but the fastest gunners in the world would lose the contest above. I am considered an "A Class" shooter by IPSC standards. I can draw, fire six rounds, drop mag, reload, and fire six more rounds in less than six seconds. Every shot in the center of mass. That drill is called an El Presidente in IPSC. It's sort of the primary (or was) test of skill in IPSC. Master Class shooters could do that drill in less than four seconds.

The reason I bring this up is because a few years ago alot of IPSC shooters decided we wanted something a little more practical using stock guns and stock holsters. A group of former (and current) LE agents decided to create the Tachtical Invitational. Basically it was a competition whose roots were based on realistic situations. Many stages of the competition were taken from actual Military and LE training exercises as well as true events.

One of the stages replicated the gun vs knife scenario I mentioned above. One person armed with a handgun loaded with paint bullets (NOT paintballs) and another with a training knife (bright red). We re-enacted this scenario over and over. In nearly every instance, the person with the knife was able to close the gap and "stab" their opponent before the other could draw their gun. We're talking about some of the top shooters in the world; the type of guys who have million dollar contracts with Springfield or S&W. We're also talking about police officers, trained MAs, SEALs, Spooks, FBI, SS, etc. We had one guy decide he was done shooting because he no longer felt like he could defend himself. He got over it.

Despite our high IPSC class and training, my father and I both lost to the knife.

I've also practiced this scenario in several martial arts classes. There are expceptions. Some people are smart and use their MA training to deter or detain the assailant until they can draw their gun. Some just take the person down hand to hand.

I don't know if you've ever been in a situation like that, but it's easier to imagine an outcome (correctly or incorrectly) than to actually try it and see it fail.

hotpot

10-08-2004, 10:36 AM

For the love of God, please stop discussing guns and martial arts with MadRonin. We'll never see the end of it.

:D

MadRonin

10-08-2004, 10:37 AM

I consider running away and living a win. Especially, if I can find the guy later and set a bag of flaming poo on his porch. :D
Personally, I like to take bleach and write "Eat a Dick" on their front lawn. ;):D

MadRonin

10-08-2004, 10:41 AM

For the love of God, please stop discussing guns and martial arts with MadRonin. We'll never see the end of it.

:D
Hey, wait a second. I talk about other things. :(

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 12:50 PM

Hey, wait a second. I talk about other things. :(

This is more interesting. One sec, I was like totally busy this morning, I'm whipping up some stuff. Most of it is yielding to your knowledge in this field, but hold up.

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 01:36 PM

Again I disagree. We are talking about a street fight, not a showdown.

Say you are carrying a handgun concealed and are walking down a street at night. As you round the corner a man roughly 15 feet (5yds) away suddenly charges you. The man is of average build. It takes him less than two seconds to clear the distance. Before you can reach, draw, de-safety, and fire your gun, the man is on top of you. If you continue to draw your gun, there is an excellent chance the man could kill you. What do you do?

If we're talking about a street fight and not a showdown, the person who has the initiative to attack would most likely win if he knew how to take advantage of his first move. I'm talking about apples, you're talking about oranges, on a strict scenario basis, you would attack each problem in a different manner. The ambusher would almost always have the upper hand. In a plain off showdown, which is my generalized situation, it's not a good idea to try to jump someone who has a gun. In a your street fight situation, there are many possible outcomes since there are so many variables. For your street fight situation, all the variables are set at the beginning to create an advantage for the unarmed attacker. You're saying that an unarmed assailant can get the jump on me if I'm unaware even though I'm armed. This doesn't prove anything. When someone is being attacked, the person who gets the first move often can win the outcome. In your scenario, you're giving my guy every single disadvantage. This CAN happen in real life, but is it really a worthy gauge for whether or not an unarmed assailant can overcome an armed defender consistently? What if I made my own set of rules for the unarmed attacker, he had to only move by hopping on one leg, close both eyes and only breathe through his left nostril. No, this is absurd. It's entirely too specific to be taken into consideration. If the roles were reversed and there was a guy coming at you from 15 feet as you turned a corner firing a gun while you turned, that situation is worthless as well. Each and every situation would have to be considered and tested in order to declare that an every real life situation favors the unarmed at close range. It's too much to think about to make it a useful statement. I'll settle for, "In a real life situation, the person who gets the first attack has the upper hand and will most likely win, armed or not."

*Oh yeah, in your situation, I'd probably have to take a step back behind the corner so the guy couldn't see me, then as he rounded, pop him in the knee or nose with my foot or fist, then run like the dickens while trying to draw my weapon.

I know from first hand experience that all but the fastest gunners in the world would lose the contest above. I am considered an "A Class" shooter by IPSC standards. I can draw, fire six rounds, drop mag, reload, and fire six more rounds in less than six seconds. Every shot in the center of mass. That drill is called an El Presidente in IPSC. It's sort of the primary (or was) test of skill in IPSC. Master Class shooters could do that drill in less than four seconds.

The reason I bring this up is because a few years ago alot of IPSC shooters decided we wanted something a little more practical using stock guns and stock holsters. A group of former (and current) LE agents decided to create the Tachtical Invitational. Basically it was a competition whose roots were based on realistic situations. Many stages of the competition were taken from actual Military and LE training exercises as well as true events.

One of the stages replicated the gun vs knife scenario I mentioned above. One person armed with a handgun loaded with paint bullets (NOT paintballs) and another with a training knife (bright red). We re-enacted this scenario over and over. In nearly every instance, the person with the knife was able to close the gap and "stab" their opponent before the other could draw their gun. We're talking about some of the top shooters in the world; the type of guys who have million dollar contracts with Springfield or S&W. We're also talking about police officers, trained MAs, SEALs, Spooks, FBI, SS, etc. We had one guy decide he was done shooting because he no longer felt like he could defend himself. He got over it.

Despite our high IPSC class and training, my father and I both lost to the knife.

I've also practiced this scenario in several martial arts classes. There are expceptions. Some people are smart and use their MA training to deter or detain the assailant until they can draw their gun. Some just take the person down hand to hand.

I don't know if you've ever been in a situation like that, but it's easier to imagine an outcome (correctly or incorrectly) than to actually try it and see it fail.

I thought we were talking about gunman versus an unarmed person. When did they get a knife? In any case, I find this interesting that they have competitions like this. Do they have a website that lists the rules? I am curious as to what constitutes to a loss. Basically, what you're saying is that at close quarters with a knife, the knife wielder will win. That's fine. Why are the people trying to use their guns at an ineffective distance? Like you said, people resorted to using MA before using their firearm. The firearm is an extra tool that you have in your inventory. I think that this puts anyone at a distinct advantage over someone who doesn't have it. Put a gun in the hands of some normal guy like me and put me up against an MA at close range, I'd probably lose. Put it in your hands, someone who knows how to make the most of a situation, the story will probably favor you. I realize that a gun is not a magic weapon that can let you best any attacker, but I don't want people to get the idea that if they're within arm's reach of Mr. MadRonin, that they can take you down easier than pie. It's all situational.

I yield to your knowledge on this subject though, I am not versed in Martial Arts or Firearms training. I would just like to better understand how I can make my ideas and thinking process more correct. But, I can't just take your situations for granted without asking for an explanation or reason behind them can I? :o

Btw, how did you get into this IPSC stuff? I'd search for it at work, but I'm afraid my employers may start getting worried about me. :D

The government won't let me have a gun. On the part of the application where it asks, "Do you take 'No' for an answer?" I violently crossed out the "No" and wore through the page with my pen. ;)

Razpewton

10-08-2004, 01:43 PM

Come on guys.....all this talk of fighting gives me jock-itch. Why don't we just have a couple brewskies, shoot a couple games of pool and watch all the girls in tight jeans stroll by. :D :D :D

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 01:50 PM

I'm with Raz, right after I read some more about fighting. :D

Mostly, I'm concerned that I'm mis-wording or not fully explaining the point I'm trying to prove. Which is bothering me much more than anything else.

BRx8

10-08-2004, 02:49 PM

Take the professional fighters OUT of the organized match and put them on the street in a walled off area with no one there to watch over them. The one who walks away wins. No refs, no rounds, no restrictions. Just two opponents facing each other. That's the type of match that would best gauge the worth of a fighting style.

Granted this may not be entirely LEGAL, but I think it would be the most accurate gauge.

hey ming, i must be slacking off cuz i haven't disagreed with you yet today so here it is...lol

i'm still very curious as to what these rules are that you keep bringing up against Pride (notice i've only started talking about Pride now since i really don't care much for UFC...Pride allows more international fighting while UFC almost strictly invites American only fighters...also, Pride has almost half the rules UFC does)...please, watch a few matches and tell me exactly when the referee even intervenes in the fight...the last Pride and UFC matches i've watched have almost all the matches end in a KO...and that is when the ref steps in to cover the KO'd fighter...other than that, the ref is only there at the beginning of the match to specify the no-headbutt, no-groin hits, and no eye gouging rules

taking your example of pitting those fighters in the outside world, in blocked off area of say, a gymnasium would prove almost the same results because they would still use their respective martial art against each other and the only difference would probably be the result of death to the weaker opponent...this would be the most accurate representation of the MA because, well, it IS the real thing! so i guess i can agree with you there but Pride still is the most accurate representation next to the likes of Boxing matches, Muay Thai matches, K-1 matches, Pro Wrestling ;) :p , amateur wrestling, Karate/Kung Fu exhibitions, and surely that video we watched with the guy doing the Tatsu Maki Sampu Kyaku spinning kicks at the beginning of this thread...i guess what got me so involved in this debate with you is when you called MMA "bs" and that can't be farther from the truth...MMA is very real, it's as raw as you're going to get legally, and the rules are there to protect the fighters

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 02:58 PM

the no-headbutt, no-groin hits, and no eye gouging rules

Those rules. :p

Anyway, yeah, Pride DOES show very well which fighter is stronger and which syles are better. It's a good gauge, but I don't think it's a perfect gauge. A perfect gauge would be illegal. That's it.

I guess I didn't pick my words carefully when I called MMAs and Pride and UFC BS. Apparently, that was my mistake. I meant to say that it does not make sense to use them as a perfect gauge to grade a martial arts style. Better? Settled? I blame the tuna melt.

BRx8

10-08-2004, 02:59 PM

Better? Settled? I blame the tuna melt.

no, i'm not satisfied, and you've already pissed me off...i think the only way to settle this is me, and you, outside after school! meet me in the playground, punk!

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 03:02 PM

You're on! I'll bring the guns. You take the one labelled, "This one works... Honest!" :D

BRx8

10-08-2004, 03:04 PM

You're on! I'll bring the guns. You take the one labelled, "This one works... Honest!" :D

what the?!? i was talking about a rock, paper, scissors match! geez you're angy! what did that tuna melt do??

well, i'm pissed off there's no Naruto this week... :mad:

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 03:10 PM

I got food poisoning. Been home sick for 3 days since Tuesday. My whole body was hurting. Back at work today.

I brought super soakers, I always fight with super soakers. :D

There isn't? I haven't been keeping up with the show, I've seen like 17 eps, it progresses too slow with all the recaps on every single episode. I've read all the manga though. (^-^)b

MadRonin

10-08-2004, 03:21 PM

I used the gunman vs. knife because that was the scenario I trained in. You could just as easily use bare hands instead. The close quarter’s combat of the exercise was used to demonstrate how a law enforcement agent (or law-abiding civilian) could be caught in such a situation at any time. At the same time, people were taught how to react to the attack. The scenario would be valid in say a house or an alley way when caught by surprise. It would not work in a situation such as a hijacking or bank robbery.

I fully agree that it is not wise to charge someone who is holding a gun even at a short distance. However, it is not impossible, either.

I got into IPSC through my father. He's always been a big target shooter. We started with PPC (Practical Pistol Competition) and then moved to IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation). After a few years we participated in several (NTIs) National Tactical Invitationals. I don't have the time to go out and practice, so I'm not the competitor I once was. However I still keep my reflexes honed by drawing and dry-firing several times a week.

I don't recommend IPSC anymore since they moved away from the practical side a long time ago. PPC is good to learn basic gun control. Perfect for a beginner. NTIs are invitation only and are only held in Harrisburg, PA.

If it's something you want to try, I would suggest PPC or IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Assoc). You can find men and women willing to show you the ropes.

And since I seem to ruffling people's feathers around here, that's all I'm going to say about that. If you want anymore info, PM me.

erog216

10-08-2004, 04:09 PM

mmm, lol is all I got to write

A gunman vs a martial artist at 7 yards with the martial artist winning...

Well, first off the martial artist would have to be good...

and the wielder with teh pistol very very bad...

When I say bad, I don't mean that they cannot operate teh gun, but their feel of the gun is off...

For as much as law enforcement, military, and even bodygaurds pratice, very few feel 'comfortable' with their weapon.

Further more pointing it at a person is totally different...

You get a person who has no problem pointing a weapon at a person and the martial artist is dead...

No IF's AND's or BUT's... I'm sorry... I'm a long time fan and lover of martial arts but against a man who can wield a gun in a true fashion, the unarmed fighter has no chance...

Against some random cop or a someone who has never fired at a person before, I'll give you that, maybe you can, but the key moment will come in that moment the person with the gun flinchs...

He flinchs because shooting someone is against everything a decent human being believes in...

The same could be said for a man with a knife, sword, cannon, bazooka, atomic bomb... the basic nature of man would hesitate, and in that moment of hesitation, you take advantage of it...

I'm not sure if you guys have ever practiced full contact fighting, take it to the floor, till one guy submits, but its honestly the scariest thing you can do...

The first time I did it was 13... I fought a 15 year old, we were both brown belts, and after about 5 minutes of fighting, I made him tap by a cross arm bar... I had never had such a cold sweat in my life...

But after doing it over and over, I got used to it... that hesitation on what to do and how to do it were gone... soon I was fighting 25 year old marines and fighting people who were senior to me in both rank and skill, but I did it... I was hesitant for other reasons, but not because I didn't know what to do...

In martial arts you train that part of you out by practice... with guns you don't... you just don't go walking down the street shooting someone... so that you get used to it...

But if you really wanna test this, get someoen with equal skill with a gun and equal skill with their hands and try it at 7 m....

I bet you the martial arts guy backs out, because he isn't stupid, to get to that level you know your restraints... throwing a punch with all your will behind it is hard, pulling a trigger on a pistol aimed at someone to take their life requires even more...

So before you sit there and say one is better than the other and such and such range, at least have a control constant and say the people are the same level, then tell me who wins...

Also, classical styles have done well in the original UFC and in pride... if you remember the original UFC 5, a 160 lb brazilian karate expert beat 3 people who weighed at least 2x his weight to win... and even in current pride, strikers are at a disadvantage, but their styles adapt... regardless what a fighter combines into his style, he still has 1 primary style... that is what he represents...

I'm a former Okinawan Shoryn Ryu student, that is my main style, but I also learned Judo, a little wrestling, and a little akido, to round myself out... any good traditional martial art will tell you to not limit your horizons...

Any fool who says that the new martial arts blow out the old just forgot to study the history of what they are learning...

Check out SAMBO if you really want to learn about new evolved martial art, and even still they remember where their history came from, oh yeah, SAMBO is a russian art, combination of Jujitsu, Judo, and Karate... but it still remembers its past in foriegn countries...

Luftwaffle

10-08-2004, 05:26 PM

I will say, my friend has shown me Crocop in pride fights. Crocop rules. :D

veilsidev1

10-11-2004, 08:58 PM

whatup guys. I have a few things to say. First of all I am very proud of my mma record that's why I stated it, call me a showoff, but I have trained very hard for this so i don't carewhat anybody says. I don't go looking for fights or anything and am responsible with my skills thats why I choose to do it in the ring and show my skills and my record of my performance in the ring, anyways. Luftwaffle im going to agree with you on the gun thing. No matter how good or strong or fast you think you are don't go after a guy with a weapon, it's just plain stupid and it's probably not worth risking your life. As to bruce lee, no disrespect but a guy like wanderlei silva or Noguiera ( beat crocop), would easily take down lee and turn him into @$%&. And yes, crocop is a bad ass, He is fast, tall and has the most porwerfull kicks I have ever witnessed, but as it has been proven thousands of times, a stand up fighter is no good without ground skills.

fightersclubtv808

11-17-2004, 04:32 AM

just a thought about bruce lee. in his last flic, "game of death" he began to integrate ground techniques into his fighting style. if my memory serves me correctly, i think he slapped a kinda weak leg-triangle/armbar on kareem--"killing him". no doubt, if alive today, master lee would've studied brazilian jiujitsu and possibly came up w/ some type of move that he'd patent and use effectively against the ground fighter. bruce lee was the man. btw, the move that he'd come up w/ to counter the ground fighter would probably be a move that unfortunatley, only he could pull off. i'm a grappler, doing judo for years, and brazilian jj for the last 7... but bruce lee was the man and i really think we do him a dishonor by speaking on his behalf so i probably need to take a few lashes for this post...

just glad to see people passionate about their forms :-)

sakuraba rules, but i've seen him spar w/ my friend enson in japan, and saku got stretched.

DOMINION

11-17-2004, 04:59 AM

Many do not look like they would inflict much damage, but damn it is kind of cool to watch
Have you ever had a shoe thrown at you? Now just imagine that with a human leg in it;)...

Razpewton

11-17-2004, 06:05 AM

I still think the chubby chick is a hottie. :D

BRx8

11-17-2004, 09:13 AM

sakuraba rules, but i've seen him spar w/ my friend enson in japan, and saku got stretched.

are you talking about Enson Inoue? i think he's about 30lbs. heavier than Saku

Japan8

11-17-2004, 10:40 AM

Ming, i must disagree again! :D

Pride is the closest you're going to get to watching "real" fighting without it being illegal...i still don't know what these rules are that you're speaking of...Pride has very minimal rules - no eye gouging, headbutts, and no hits to the groin are really the only contact rules there are while in traditional martial arts competitions there are FAR more rules like sweeping the knee, stopping after each hit, out of bounds, etc...as i've said before you can just about do anything you want in MMA - a Kung Fu expert can throw any type of punch/kick to anywhere on the opponent's body sans groin/eyes...as a testament to this, i've seen many, MANY broken body parts - arms, legs, clavicles, eye sockets, etc. from locks, strikes, and slams...the fact is, this pretty much is the most honorable form of fighting you can get - man vs. man with no uncontrolled variables such as weapons

as for Kung Fu and many other traiditonal martial arts, i never thought it was worthless, i think it's a beautiful art that would have worked well yesteryear...at this point, everyone has learned from it and evolved from traditional martial arts to today's extreme mixed martial arts...the traditional arts can still be used as a base of knowledge, all i'm implying is that if i were to meet an attacker in a dark alley i'd sure as hell would rather know how to immobilize the guy by taking him down and putting a rear naked choke on him or breaking one of his limbs rather than try and scare him with Snake and Crane technique ;)

PS - if you want to watch some REAL REAL fighting with no rules at all, watch Bum Fights...you'll see it's not very fun to watch because all they do is swing rampantly into the air...it's fun only for a little while

The Pride you watch and the Pride I watch here must be different. The stuff I see here looks like ass to me. Give me K-1 anyday. Boring ass POS Pride...

BRx8

11-17-2004, 10:45 AM

The Pride you watch and the Pride I watch here must be different. The stuff I see here looks like ass to me. Give me K-1 anyday. Boring ass POS Pride...

that's because you don't understand what they're doing, that's all...you don't get the technique behind grappling and it will seem boring...i like K-1 but for me it's too much like boxing, too many rules...i'd actually rather watch a good boxing match than K-1 because K-1 fighters have even less technique than a professional boxer, they're more like brawlers that can't grapple...plus, every single time they've put a K-1 guy into Pride for cross-fights, the K-1 guy loses...why? he's 1 dimensional...he can strike, sure, but he can't grapple

Japan8

11-17-2004, 11:04 AM

that's because you don't understand what they're doing, that's all...you don't get the technique behind grappling and it will seem boring...i like K-1 but for me it's too much like boxing, too many rules...i'd actually rather watch a good boxing match than K-1 because K-1 fighters have even less technique than a professional boxer, they're more like brawlers that can't grapple...plus, every single time they've put a K-1 guy into Pride for cross-fights, the K-1 guy loses...why? he's 1 dimensional...he can strike, sure, but he can't grapple

You shouldn't assume... as if makes an ass of you... but not me. :p

You have no idea what martial arts background I do and do not have. I've never even mentioned anything about it on the RX-8 forum. As I said... don't make assumptions.

I don't like grappling... I don't like jujitsu. I liked pro wrestling as a child, but besides it being fake I find it dull now. This goes back to I don't like grappling. Why not? It's boring. Watching a game of chess if boring if you don't understand the strategy and.... it's still boring to watch even if you do get it. That's my point... I just don't find that kind of fighting the least bit interesting. Another good comparison.. baseball. I hate it. Boring as hell. I love basketball and football I like as well. Seeing a pattern? Short attention span? You've got me... but that's my taste. Different strokes and all... :D

Japan8

11-17-2004, 11:06 AM

You must not have been listening to me luftwaffle... :)

Seriously, I said they didn't invent guns... I said they had the option to use guns then totally bailed on it...

History of rifle use reunited Japan in 1600 under Nobunaga and Toshiyama (I think the later is his name, could be someone else, been a while). That's why in anime in this time frame you always hear reference to the "Oni", which was Nobunaga... he used teh gun to reunite Japan.

But after the reunificiation, the nobles overthrough Toshiyama (might be the wrong name) after a failed war against Korea, took control of Japan and then guns really did not play a major role till 1850 during the Meiji Restoration...

grr... I never said they invented the gun, the Japanese first got them in the 1550's to 1590's... the Spanish had them way before that...

Jesus, misquoting me is the worst! I just said that they didn't have guns... was the point...

As for this rules BS you are talking about, the original UFC's only had eyeguaguing and ball hitting as illegal... in Pride its headbutts, eye gauging and ball knocking...

I'm not sure what you are looking for if you say there are rules... I really can't see mister shaolin master fondling some man's nuts...

Bleh, and I said Gung Fu and Tae Kwan Do weren't as effective because of their lack of transferrence to a mixed martial arts setting...

However, if a trained fighter of those ranks fought someone with no formal training, fo course he would kick their butt. Kung Fu has many styles, some of the radical styles of Kung FU are actually very linear... and amazingly powerful, but in general about 90% of the Kung FU taught here in the States along with Tae Kwan Do are actually absolute crap...

I'd say about 60% of all the martial arts in the US is total garbage... based solely on older men groping women or just a preverse form of ballet...

But that's just my opinion and you are right ming, Shotokan is a heavy favorite in sports martial arts. However if you read their sites, its almost funny, because the shotokan I knew in Okinawa was teh shotokan where you were hit with bats as you did your kata where here it is jumping 10 feet in the air and acting like peter pan...

Its all about adaptation, honestly, Great Expectations was an awesome book, but it made a horrible movie. That's basically what happened to alot of traditional styles that came over here, that broke away over here... oh well, later, I'm off to school...

I'd give you a history lesson, but it's well past my bedtime. But to help you out...

Oda Nobunaga
Toyotomi Hideyoshi

and you missed the big third one.... Tokugawa Ieyasu

Luftwaffle

11-17-2004, 11:17 AM

You shouldn't assume... as if makes an ass of you... but not me. :p

You shouldn't go assuming anything either. If you do, you make and ass out of you and Ming! :D

BRx8

11-17-2004, 11:25 AM

You shouldn't assume... as if makes an ass of you... but not me. :p

well see, the subject here has been the pros and cons of the different types of martial arts and how they would fare in a realistic environment...that's what we've been discussing...up until now, no one has put down another martial art quite as eloquently as you have...if anyone's made an ass of themself, well quite frankly it's you :)

your point well taken though, i don't enjoy watching baseball either even coming from Chicago which is deeply rooted in the sport of baseball - i mean the Cubs haven't won the World Series since 1945 and people here still LOVE them! but like you said, different strokes :p

Xyntax

11-17-2004, 11:50 AM

Looks fun, wish I could do those flying moves :D

But hey, anyone who's had his share of fights knows that it's the simple precise moves that really hurt. Boxing is one example of simple yet practical way of fighting, function first and then form. Most of the theatrical martial arts we see on tv follow form vs function. Not so good when you're fighting for real. There are deadly martial arts out there, but that's only for those who can afford to take a life. If you want a practical beating that won't possibly kill and uses everyday weapons, I'd recommend Kali (aka Arnis, Karis, etc.) ;)

fightersclubtv808

11-17-2004, 12:35 PM

are you talking about Enson Inoue? i think he's about 30lbs. heavier than Saku

howzit. yes, i'm talking about the same Enson. Yup, he's AT LEAST 30lbs heavier than Saku. Saku still rules though. Thing is, I've seen Saku roll before, and really thought that he'd be able to hold his own against Enson, but Enson is a freak. (the good way Enson, if you're reading) it seems that Enson's a lot tougher when he doesn't lose his head. I've been on the receiving end of his sparring--ouch. I really did hope that Saku was going to fare better than I. I even have a bobble-head Saku doll, so please don't think I was trying to dis' Sakuraba.

btw, really enjoying this thread. my younger brother is a ?something degree TKD/Hapkido Blackbelt, and defends his art strongly. He's a tough guy and we get into this discussion all the time. What would prevail in the end, Brazilian JJ(submission grappling) or TKD/Hap? Many of our family get-togethers wind up w/ this discussion. (w/ the holidays coming up, i'd better start warming up already) So many of these types of discussions w/ him, that things are never as heated as they used to be, but for the most part we both still stand by are decisions. The only time I ever see a "stiker" change his mind is when they actually accept (let's say) a Gracie Jiujitsu open challenge and go to any of their schools and take on the practitioners. (for those readers that are unfamiliar w/ this, all Gracies have this policy in place--even if not publicized--they'll take on all comers--a practice that they continue from the founder of their art-mitsuyo maeda sensei) As far as rules go, there are no rules then, just sign the waver. Here's the scary part, because my family is heavily into martial arts (for generations--you can imagine what kinda discussions this makes for over turkey--btw, half of them are stikers) and i've always been conditioned to believe that there are "critical" points to strike and that can incapacitate your opponent (ie, "uncle ---- was able to stike a guy in the --- and the guy couldn't breath/move/talk/...), problem is, there are a ton of martial artist here in hawaii, (you'd be amazed--probably because of the demographics--asians being the majority) and anytime i see a fight between a striker and a bjj guy, the striker tries to kill his opponent and it never seems to work. (this is very very true when the striker knows his opponent is a grappler) it's just very hard to incapacitate a good takedown artist w/ submission skills. on the flipside though, there's always "puncher's luck"--no matter how you cut it, if the stiker lands a good blow to one of the "buttons", out goes his opponent. doesn't matter how good you are on the mat then.

sorry for the long reply--just enjoy discussing this to prep for the long holidays ahead of us.