ok stay with me on this.

awhile ago Herc had a thread going about a new way to store/make hydrogen with powerballs (http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2388&highlight=hydrogen) (by the way herc how did that presentation go?)

then i read an article in a mag(can't find the specific one now)
describing gm's hydrogen reformer/gas pump. here is an article that talks about it click (http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/products/adv_tech/gas-fedS10-_052002.html) the one picture is on a truck but they have one imbedded in a gasoline pump they have been using to fuel their hywire concept (http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3705) (yes it's a link to a link)

then i read this discover mag article link to a link sort of (http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3616) about making oil from refuse.

so it seems to me that we can now get the oil from recycling in the discover article process. process it into gasoline truck it to gas stations equipped with the gm reformer pumps and pump the hydrogen right into our fuel cell or (as herc would like and i wouldn't mind) into our hydrogen burning rotary powered cars and trucks (fuel celled city buses!)
so while so many people have talked about getting the infrastructure in place, that part is actually falling together rather quicker than most people expected. the only problem i see really is the on board storage of the hydrogen itself.

maybe we are not as far from a hydrogen revolution as some would have us.
thank you for your time.
your thoughts ?

...just that Mazda should hurry their ass up with "my" (i can't remember where the idea came from: probably not my own) idea to use a water-injected, hydrogen combusting rotary engine so that the infrastructure is there to fill your car up with de-ionized water at the H-pump.. heh heh, the "Hydro" station in more than one way, eh??

the first i'd heard of a hydrogen refuelling station was one of Honda's for their fuel cell car years back, and it created the hydrogen through electrolysis of city water, powered by solar panels... not bad, eh??

ahahahaha... reading the articles now... omg...


Quoted from: GM Demonstrates World's First Gasoline-Fed Fuel Cell Vehicle"This vehicle, and its fuel reforming technology, move us closer to a hydrogen economy," said Larry Burns, GM's vice president of research and development, and planning. "This drivable lab provides a learning curve about the use of reforming fuels in fuel cells to power cars, homes and businesses. A lot of people said we couldn't use gasoline to power a fuel cell system. We did it."


...just smacks of "ok, WHY did you do it??"
... imo, the article makes a very weak an diluted arguement for such a technology: it's expenisive, bulky (they needed a pickup to get all the stuff necessary in it), but yes does do really well (40mpg) on the gas for a vehicle of such size and has mega-low emissions... but already there are hybrids which are cheaper, lighter, and get even better gas milage, even though there emissions aren't quite that low.
they say something about the car's reformed wastes powering a home... yikes. i'd hate to think of the NECESSITY of using up fuel in my car just so i could cook a turkey for christmas... what a silly notion.

anyhoo, definitely a neat read zoom.

...i still want my hydro-rotary powered sports car though. :) ELECTRIC MOTORS BE DAMNED!! :mad:

(they needed a pickup to get all the stuff necessary in it),

i agree with that point. but that was because for some reason they wanted to cary the reformer around with them. since they now have reformer embedded in a filling station pump(out of one nozzle comes gasoline, out of the other the hydrogen) that is not necessary and i might add a dumb idea in the first place. although i guess they needed to bring the reformer with them to show the truck around ;)



anyhoo, definitely a neat read zoom thank you. i was particularly impressed with my ability to string the various bits of info into one coherrent idea:D

ELECTRIC MOTORS BE DAMNED!! hehe:)

I've read a couple of discussions on the topic. Granted, most of them were uneducated, so don't take what I say as gospel.

The problems with a hydrogen economy are:
1. Storing the Hydrogen on the vehicle
2. Getting the energy to get the hydrogen from water.
3. Putting up an infrastructure that supports it.
4. Avoiding the explosiveness of hydrogen.
5. Making it all cheap enough for people to use.

4 isn't really an issue. Hydrogen isn't any more explosive than gasoline. It's also much easier to clean in a spill - it evaporates much faster than gas.

GM solves 1, 2, and 3. That's not bad. 1. The hydrogen isn't stored, it's generated and used immediately. 2. The energy comes from normal gasoline. 3. The infrastructure - gas stations - is already in place.

Very cool. And Wakeech, they claimed 40 mpg for a Chevy S-10 with the chemical converter equipment in it. I bet the truck weighs close to 3,500 pounds. That's would make it almost 50% more efficient than the 55mpg, 1950 pound Honda Insight or 45 mpg, 2750 pound Toyota Prius. If the truck doesn't have the gas-electric hybrid's trick of regenerative breaking, adding that might widen the gap further.


Of course, what I'd really like to see is a way to generate mass amounts of hydrogen at power plants (nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, geothermal, even coal) and store the safely on the cars. Then we could kiss our petroleum dependencies good bye. Hopefully something like that'll happen in our lifetime.

1. The hydrogen isn't stored, it's generated and used immediately.

so ok it's not as dumb an idea as i thought carrying around that heavy reformer equipment. it solves the storage problem.

3. The infrastructure - gas stations - is already in place.
exactly my point with having the reformers in the gas station pumps. both ways, carrying it with you and having it at the pump, are fairly easy to do so the infrastructure just needs a little tweaking not a full scale overhaul. stations need to replace their pumps once in awhile so when the do they make one a reformer pump, the government could even mandate( :o ) the change by having everyone convert just one pump at first. then supply and demand could take over.

Originally posted by FamilyGuy
Hydrogen isn't any more explosive than gasoline. It's also much easier to clean in a spill - it evaporates much faster than gas.

...heh heh heh, considering that H2's boiling point is -253 degrees C, it is certainly safe to say that H2 would evaporate faster.

'cause of the lack of activity here today at lunch, i went back to the autoweek forum... which, yes *shudder* is most often full of infuriatingly stupid, American-muscle loving, naive, blind, and deaf posters, i stumbled upon this INCREDIBLE information posted by member BJN!!

read up...

Cool Beans to the MAX (http://chat.autoweek.com/showthread.php?threadid=1725&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)

basically, he talks about Metal Hydride TANK storage... and get this (i have NO idea why i didnt' think of this) AT HOME WATER->HYDROGEN ELECTROLYSERS... he says that (with obviously very very optimistic estimation, considering his bias) you could fill your 150-175mi tank (a "normal" tank) for about $.50-$.80 US per "gasonline equivalent gallons"... wicked, or what??? :D!!

Wakeech,

Thanks for the info. That was a very cool discussion. I bookmarked all of the links referenced on the site.

I think using cutting edge tech or unusual tech is very cool, as long as it's practical. It's what drew me to the Wankel in the first place. Driving a hydrogen powered vehicle, especially one that was cheaper to refuel, more efficient, and more powerful than the gasoline equivalent, would be awesome.

thanks waky definetly a good read. something always bugs me when i read thru info like that. someone always says something along the lines of "and if you ran it during off peak hours you would save a bundle off money so it would be cheaper". if everyone ran whatever it was during off peak hours wouldn't that cause the "peak" to shift? would we have to keep changing what time we ran the gadget to keep up with the moving "off peak hours"

Doesn't this all come down to whether or not the general electric infrastructure of the country uses fossil fuels or not? We all know hydrogen doesn't come free, so shouldn't the concern and focus be on converting powerplants to greener facilities? What does working on a reformer to pull hydrogen out of petroleum get you? A different kind of dependence. Why so much emphasis on how to effectively put H2 in vehicles. Our dependence on oil and our pollution problems are still not primarily due to our transportation.

How about more looks toward technologies that would use geothermal, solar, wind, tidal, thermal differnces in the ocean, biomass, etc. more efficiently. Maybe give energy companies a real reason to switch to alternative fuels, other than government regulations, the inherient goodness within them, and some cheap PR milage.

Ah screw it, now where can I find a 73 Road Runner and some leaded gas?

Pond scumm converts water to hydrogen. Watch "Extream Engineering" on TLC/Discovery Channel about powering the "Mega City." It has been in heavy rotation this week.

There seem to be two conversations going on here - one is hydrogen power, howto store it, produce it, use it. The other one keeps mentioning 'fuel cells' as if they produce hydrogen.
A fuel cell is like a car battery that uses fuel (can be alcohol, methanol, even unleaded gasoline) thru a catalytic membrane with air, to produce ELECTRICITY. Who wants an electric motor in their '8' - don't all rush at once! (You can have mine!)
Actually the Reformer approach has many benefits, and is very efficient - they take the hydrogen out of water, with no wimpy 4% efficient solar cells used. I did not know this was possible till I saw it in action recently.
The reformer uses natural gas and water (no air involved in the reaction). The gas is not burned, it is catalysed with the water - forgive my attrocious chemistry, but it is gas, (methane, CH4) and water (H20, duh) equals carbon dioxide (CO2) and lots of hydrogen, I think the symbol is (H,H,H2, lots'o H's) and any relatively pure hydrocarbon will do, yes, even methane from rotting city land fills.
S.