I read in my local newspaper today that the '05 GTO will be more "aggressive." The upgrades to the car include new 18" wheels, hood scoops, dual outlet exhaust (not full dual), and the 400hp LS2 out of the C6 Vette.

They are offering to retrofit the 04's that are still on the dealer lots with the twin bulge hood. I guess the have over a 6 month supply on the lots (225 days). The marketing of this car is bizarre. It comes out this year, and already there is a major renovation to the model line ? I bet if I was an 04' owner I would be pissed.

Bet you'd be pissed? Id would be outraged. What they have done is unheard of. I could see if the changes were done as an optional package (ie GT or whatever) and the base stayed the same. This is a first run car in 04 though. I saw a report on it saying the car was thrown together out of the Aussie plants spare parts bin. Pontiac sould stick to building Azteks since their racing days died with the TA.

anyone seen that movie where they advertise the hell out of the car? i've seen this car in action its pretty badass...

I don't know why anyone would want a C6 now? I mean the GTO has it's engine with a 6 spd. Sure the suspension is not quite Corvette level but it's only $33,000 (compare to the $45,000 for a C6) and it has usable back seats. I like this car, too bad it looks soooooo bland.

I prefer the HSV Coupe 4: http://www.hsv.com.au/images/ads/viral/coupe4.html

Great to dream about cars overseas too bad the problem is that they are only available overseas.

I saw a report on it saying the car was thrown together out of the Aussie plants spare parts bin. Pontiac sould stick to building Azteks since their racing days died with the TA.

It's a rebadged Holden Monaro, so it isn't spare parts. It's just like putting the word's "Grand Marquis" on the back of a Crown Victoria and then trying to pretend it's a different car. But Pontiac messed up three ways.

First, it's too expensive. If they'd put, say, their 5.3 liter truck V8 with 285 horsepower in it and sold it for $26,000 or even offered the Australian low end supercharged V6 model for $20,000, people might have bought it.

Second, the styling is plain. The original GTO was just a big engine and a badge on a standard Pontiac (the Le Mans, was it?) but the original car looked pretty good. The Monaro looks boring, so more than just a new badge is needed for the exterior.

Third, it isn't made in the US. Most of your muscle car enthusiasts are also big about buying American cars (never mind that GM, Ford, and Chrysler build lots of stuff in Canada and Mexico while Toyota, Honda, and Nissan make lots of vehicles in the US).

If I could afford it, I'd buy an '05 anyway... but right now I can't budget a skateboard, so forget it.

I picked up some factory rims from a fellow over at Rx7club.com and he brought the rims in his new GTO. I was more impressed with the car in person than in pics. The interior was pretty nice. If it was mine, I would be pissed if Pontiac devalued my car that quickly though by significantly improving the car after the first model year and left pricing the same (didn't Toyota cut prices on the Supra by like 30% in the middle of a model year, infuriating everyone who had just driven out with a now devalued Supra).
I hope that pontiac finds a way to make the car more aggressive without making it look like a Grand Prix.

The new Corvette is about $1000 less than last year and more HP. Should all the "04 owners start bitching? And what will you do if Mazda improves the 8 and keeps it at the same or lower price?

That's not going to make me trade my RX-8 in for a new one.

The new Corvette is about $1000 less than last year and more HP. Should all the "04 owners start bitching? And what will you do if Mazda improves the 8 and keeps it at the same or lower price?

That's not really the same considering the Corvette went from the C5 to the C6 model. Completely new body, new engine, etc. The C5 has been around for 5 years in the same iteration. The GTO has been out for 1 year. The people who bought the final year of the C5 knew what they were getting into. Nobody that bought the 04' GTO knew that they were going to change the specs after 10 months. If they had come out with a "the Judge" package and put all these improvements in it would have made better sense. To answer your question of would I be mad if Mazda came out with the 2005 Mazdaspeed RX8 at the same price of the regular RX8...yes, I would. I understand big leaps 3-4 years into a model to keep up demand, or when they change models, but after 1 year ?

One would hope that the next model year improves over the previous. If they do and can sell at a lower price (I wouldn't count on it) great for the new owners. Now should the owners of the old model get ticked? I guess I would be a little pissed. But hey, they're out there to make money. Just think what people payed for the FD compared to the RX8. Or your buddies that bought the 350Z as opposed to the people that bought the last 300ZX. 10 years later and thousands cheaper.
But I think that the problem with the GTO in that they are not selling. They still look like a Pontiac, but an expensive one. There are alot of nicer cars out there in that price range. Maybe not faster, but much nicer. And we all know that there is more to a car than speed in a straight line, don't we class? ;)

http://www.newagegto.com/forum/uploads/post-6-1078903481.jpg

911SC, my point isn't that incremental improvement to any model of car is unwarranted or undesirable. My point is that there are ways to improve your product that doesn't alienate your customers who just made a very large purchase.

Your examples of comparing an RX7 to an RX8 or a 300 ZX to a 350 are off because there was a major change after 4-6 years of a model. They were substantially different cars, turbo vs. non-turbo, different body, different mechanicals. When was the last time you saw a car make major changes after 1 year like Pontiac did ? It's not like they changed body stlye, or complete models (ala Corvette C5 to C6). They have the same car, but basically after less than a year they are now dropping a new engine, and new hood in the car. All the people that bought the 04's were basically duped by GM. I think a better example would be if you bought your car in o4's for $35K, and in 05' they dropped the price to $25K on the same car would you be upset. I would. In this case they pushed the GTO as a performance car at a great price, then 1 year later the car is a "has-been." GM is thinking about future customers, but they clearly are not thinking about their 04's customers. I agree the GTO is a mediocre car, and they should try to improve it if it is a slow seller but not after 1 year, or they should have really pushed hard to get more market feedback before introducing this car.

I agree the GTO is a mediocre car,

Why do you think it's mediocre?

Like almost everyone else, I think the looks leave a lot to be desired.

But I can't argue with the performance, and it's supposed to have the best interior on a GM car this side of the new STS.

Why do you think it's mediocre?

Like almost everyone else, I think the looks leave a lot to be desired.

But I can't argue with the performance, and it's supposed to have the best interior on a GM car this side of the new STS.

I had a chance to see this car up close, and sit inside of it. Like you said the looks leave a lot to be desired. I think the 05' would be a step in the right direction. From the Holden Monaro, at least they could have put a slightly more aggressive body kit on it. The interior is average, which is not bad for a GM product. I guess I am a bit more used to German, or even Japanese interiors that are a little bit nicer. The shifter was absolute rubbish. If you are coming from any legitimate sports car (especially a Mazda RX8/Miata or S2000) it will seem incredibly long to you, and not particularly sturdy. Overall, especially with the 05's coming out at 400 hp it seems like an incredible bargain at low $30's. But then again some of the Car mags out there are asking why they killed the Camaro as it would be the same concept as this.

When was the last time you saw a car make major changes after 1 year like Pontiac did ?

2004 SRT4 has LSD and a touch more power.

I saw this concept Judge on another forum. This is the car they should have built in the first place.

That Judge looks great.

Bet you'd be pissed? Id would be outraged.

GM has no choice. The '04 GTO just plain didn't sell. If GM didn't give the car some major upgrades for '05, it would tank even worse.

Sorry, IMHO the GTO is pretty ugly. Why does Pontiac insist on cheap looking scoops, skirts and all the other sh$t? Just design the car with decent lines and forget the other crap.

I used to have an 86 Trans-Am that was pretty good looking with a minimum of all the vinyl glue on stuff that Pontiac uses today. Granted, that car was such a POS that I've never bought another American car to this day. It squeaked, rattled, ate tires like popcorn and needed a rebuild after 100,000 miles.

Look, I agree. Customers should be pissed. But when was the last time GM gave a damn about it's customers? We owned one GM car. Never again. They jam a huge pushrod engine, tell you how fast it is and that's it. Quality is horrible. We had a friend that kept on buying Firebirds, Cameros, Trans Ams etc. All new, all put together with exposed screws that after a few months would end up on the rug. He would find where they went and if they were not stripped, kept putting them in. So if they have no pride in how they sell you a new car why should they care if they screw you over to gain new customers. And why people keep going back I have no idea. Look inside your $30K RX8's, now go look at a similar GM product. Nuff said! Oh, and check out the same cars after 70,000 miles. I know the GM, if it's still running, will rattle like mad.

Look, I agree. Customers should be pissed. But when was the last time GM gave a damn about it's customers? We owned one GM car. Never again. They jam a huge pushrod engine, tell you how fast it is and that's it. Quality is horrible. We had a friend that kept on buying Firebirds, Cameros, Trans Ams etc. All new, all put together with exposed screws that after a few months would end up on the rug. He would find where they went and if they were not stripped, kept putting them in. So if they have no pride in how they sell you a new car why should they care if they screw you over to gain new customers. And why people keep going back I have no idea. Look inside your $30K RX8's, now go look at a similar GM product. Nuff said! Oh, and check out the same cars after 70,000 miles. I know the GM, if it's still running, will rattle like mad.

No corporation has the right to your business. It must be earned. So if you don't want to buy any more GM products because they screwed you in the past, that's your choice.

But just so you know, their product quality on the newer models has improved immensely. Check Consumer Reports, or JD Power's Initial Quality Survey, or any other resource you care to name. One of the reasons they dropped the Camaro/Trans Am is because they were among the shoddiest constructed vehicles in the lineup.

GM hasn't caught up to Toyota and Honda yet, but it's narrowing the gap. On the other hand, because of their royal foulups in the past, many people won't give a GM vehicle a second glance anyway.

PS My GM car has 66,000 miles and would only need a good wash to look like it did the day I bought it. My gas mileage is still the same, and there are no rattles. The only unscheduled maintenance in the three years I've had it is for the coolant sensor wire.

I was invited to take an online Harris Poll survey just the other day on this very subject. It was obviously sponsored by Pontiac, and after confirming that I was in fact the owner of an RX-8 it asked me to evaluate three different cars' exterior styling. Although all badging was removed, the three cars were obviously the current GTO (which I think is hopelessly boring on the outside), the new 2005 Mustang GT (which I LOVE) and the Infiniti G35 coupe. I was asked to compare the three in terms of styling, and after giving the GTO the lowest marks, I was shown several variations of new exterior styles for the GTO and asked to vote for my favorite. It didn't say anywhere that I couldn't download the pictures, so here they are. One of them is very similar to the picture of the Orange GTO posted above.

Here are the front views first, starting with the GTO as it is now. Rear views follow.

And now for the backsides. I like the addition of the quad exhausts.

I like the side skirts, hood, rear bumper and spoiler of #3 and the front bumper of #2.

They are offering to retrofit the 04's that are still on the dealer lots with the twin bulge hood. I guess the have over a 6 month supply on the lots (225 days). The marketing of this car is bizarre. It comes out this year, and already there is a major renovation to the model line ? I bet if I was an 04' owner I would be pissed.

There is a major renovation because the current car sucks ass in terms of styling. Very bland for a supposed "performance" car.

I won't even test drive one due to the looks (or lack thereof).

I prefer the HSV Coupe 4: http://www.hsv.com.au/images/ads/viral/coupe4.html

You've got taste, the Coupe is a much better car than the Monaro IMO.

People can diss the GTO all day long, but, based on looks alone, I would take one over the nissan cousins any day of the week. Throw in that killer V8 that's music to the ears, versus an overused, overrated, unexciting V6, and the package just gets sweeter.

To me it's the best looking Pontiac ever, and the interior is by far the nicest too. Hopefully it's a sign of things to come from Pontiac and GM. And hopefully people will get off the Trying-too-hard styling kick, and start buying them.

What is your damage with Nissan?