Track Day
If you have ever wanted to see what your car can really do and want to improve your driving skills you should consider doing a track day. NASA Racing is doing a High Performance Driving Experience (https://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/index.html) at Watkins Glen on September 27th and 28th. I realize that is a Monday and Tuesday but trust me when I say that the experience will be well worth taking a couple of days off from work. Oh and no previous racing experience is needed, you just need to have a desire to be a better driver.

It is a little pricey but worth every penny. You will need to pay for a NASA membership which is $35 (includes an annual subscription to Grassroots Motorsports) and register for the track day(s). One day is $175 or you can do both for $325. Doing both days is highly recommended. :D You will also need a helmet that meets at least Snell 1990 (SA1990 or M1990) or newer.

Once at the track you will be greeted by fellow enthusiasts and track officials. The morning starts with a brief drivers meeting and then you will have a 25 min. class about the driving line, passing areas, flags, and track rules. After that you have 25 min. to get ready and get your car to the starting grid. Then the real fun begins! You'll spend the next 25 minutes out on one of the best road courses in the East. If you are running in the Novice class you will have an experienced race driver sitting in the passenger seat coaching you around the track. In the Intermediate and Advanced classes you will be driving solo. When you pull back into pit row you'll head back to class to review the last session and the whole cycle starts again. In the end you will get 4 class and track sessions per day. This will provide you with a ton of driving experience that would be next to impossible to learn on the street.

Lodging
Longhouse Motel (http://www.longhouselodge.com/motel.htm)
3625 Route 14 (near Abrams Rd intersection)
Watkins Glen, NY 14891
(607) 535-2565

$79/night - Standard room - two queen beds, cable TV, continental breakfast, etc...
$94/night - Deluxe room - king bed, TV/VCR, fridge, microwave, breakfast, etc...

If you are interested in going, please register (https://www.nasaproracing.com/nasa_event/show/?event_id=122) with NASA Racing and reserve your room as soon as possible as space is limited.

sounds like fun
too bad majority has to work.

It is an absolute blast and yes, I have to work too. I just arranged to have those days off. :D

Watkins Glen eh??

i think i *just* have to come up and run with NASA for a change (VIR gets kinda boring after you ran 2 events in a row :D )

Nice! It would be cool to get some 7s there too. I hope to see you there.

So what mods have you done to make your car track ready?

not so much as in mods as just good maintenance like changing all vital fluids regularly, namely oil and coolant :)

the only real 'mods' are Hawk HPS+ pads and AP600 racing brake fluid, and Toyo RA-1 R-Compound tires :D

everything else is pretty much stock!

and i guess SS brake lines help a little too :D

That is basically what I had in mind too. I'll be switching the brake fluid to Motul 600 and using a set of Carbotech Panthers for the pads. I wanted to try a set of Hawk Blue pads but the Carbotechs were the only pads available at the time so I figured i would give them a try.

Sounds really tempting, but the cost is too hard core for me at this point. I'll just stick with the autocrosses for now :p

dollar for dollar I think track days are more fun :)

Asking for the days of right now! :)

Cool! I put in for 3 days because I'm planning on driving over on Sunday and heading home on Wednesday.

Spin9k and Deslock mentioned that they may be interested in going too.

Track time and hotel booked!

Nice! It sounds like there will be at least three of us there.


Deslock & Spin9k are you still interested in going?

I spoke with Spin9k yesterday and he said that he still wants to go. So there should be at least four rotary powered cars at the track that weekend. :)

How critical are they on Helmet specs? I just bought a new one on line and it meets DOT FMVSS N.219. Does that meet their needs? I used it at Rotary Revolution 2004 at IRP. I am thinking of signing up for just Monday. (Nice scheduling, guys - for the unemployed, that is!).

The helmet has to be at least Snell M95 or equivalent. I'm not familiar with the DOT ratings but I'll see if I can find an answer.

After a bit of searching I found that the SCCA does a better job of explaining the helmet guidelines.


You will probably want to buy your own helmet if you run many events. A helmet that meets the SCCA’s rules can be purchased for $50 to $100 dollars.
The current SCCA rules require the helmets to have a Snell rating 2000, 1995, or 1990. Snell usually releases standards every five years and the SCCA requires the current standard or the two previous, so in 2005 the 1990 helmets will no longer be usable (you will need a 2005, 2000, or 1995). Snell also has sub-ratings. The SCCA accepts M (motorcycle) and SA (Special Application). This may sound a bit confusing, so I’ve included a list of the currently accepted combinations below:

Snell 2000 (SA or M)
Snell 1995 (SA or M)
Snell 1990 (SA or M)

Please note that helmets that only have a DOT (Department of Transportation) rating are not legal in Solo II. Some helmets have both a DOT and a Snell rating, and they would be acceptable providing that the Snell rating meets the criteria outlined above. Also, the M helmets are usually much cheaper than the SA helmets. The SA helmets are required for road racing because they are rated for multiple impacts and have fire resistant linings. If you think you may want to do some road racing you may want to consider spending the extra money for a SA helmet (M’s aren’t legal for road courses). Also, the newer helmets weigh less than the older ones, so the latest rating will probably be easier on your neck. Most of the on-line vendors have a sizing chart so that you can measure your head and get the correct helmet. Local vendors will usually be more expensive, but you can try the helmet on before buying.

>VIR gets kinda boring after you ran 2 events in a row

Although I've never been to VIR before, I would only imagine VIR is a more challenging (and fun ;-) track than the WS.

Would love to join you guys if its not a weekday event. Besides, I'll need to sort out the problem with the backend loosing under hard braking. I just have the alignment check at the dealer over the weekend and was told everything is in spec. Maybe I should try using stock pad at the back to see if that would make any difference!

RotaryZZ,

Sorry, it is a Monday/Tuesday event. :(

Do you know the exact readings of your alignment or did the dealer just say that everything was within spec?

You should try to get in touch with Alex at Casual Racing (AlexJ on the forum). They have been racing a pair of RX-8s all summer and have got the cars setup pretty well. I'm sure that he would give you some pointers on getting the car setup properly.

SpeedRacer,

The dealer just told me everthing is winthin spec! I kinda trust them as they seems pretty professional.

>You should try to get in touch with Alex at Casual Racing ........
Do you have his web site, email, phone number etc??

Btw, I thought you've similar problem at the track too, right? Did you do anything so far to mitigate that?? I went to Summit Point about 2 weeks ago and the same thing happened there, so it really has nothing to do with the track surface itself.

I went back through some of the older posts and found Alex's settings:

Full neg. camber in the front about 1.6 deg. and 2.0 deg. neg in the rear. Caster is set to stock spec. set the front toe to just slightly out 1/16 to 3/32 with nothing in the rear.

Yeah, I was running into some issues while I was late braking into the bus stop at the Glen. I think that part of it had to do with my level of experience and also the very soft suspension. With the stock setup the front really wants to dive and transfer the weight under extreme braking. I hope to have corrected some of that with the coil-overs that I installed. I guess that I'll find out on the 27th.

>I hope to have corrected some of that with the coil-overs that
>I installed. I guess that I'll find out on the 27th.

I've talked to Ground Control before and they believe its due to the insufficient rebound of the OEM shock.
Btw, what coilovers did you installed? And please let me know if that help with the high speed braking at the track at all.

TIA,
Pete

>Full neg. camber in the front about 1.6 deg. and 2.0 deg. neg ........

What suspension pieces did he have?

Huff at Vivid Racing talked me into going with the JIC Magic coil-overs. It took a while to get them dialed in but I'm really happy with them now. The car is much more settled through the corners and at higher speeds.

At the beginning of this season, SCCA rules really limited what Alex could do to the car. So the first couple of races the only difference to the suspension was Koni shocks and a different alignment. Alex told me that he was really impressed with how well the car handled right out of the box and I think that means a lot coming from him (previously raced BMWs and also won the Formula-Vee championship). Half way through the season an amendment to the rules was passed and it allowed them to install Mazdaspeed springs, rear sway bar, and a SpeedSource adjustable front sway bar.

>...........and it allowed them to install Mazdaspeed springs,
>rear sway bar, and a SpeedSource adjustable front sway bar.

I don't think SpeedSource is selling any of their speed parts to the general public.
Btw, did you do any alignments to your 8 after putting in the JIC coilovers?

If you gave them a call you might be surprised.

No, I haven't done an alignment yet. With its current settings the car turns in nicely and holds the line well. I guess that I should at least have it checked so that I will know where it is set.

Just talked to guy down at SpeedSource and they gave me a really good insight into the chassis dynamics for our car. I was actually a bit confused and awed when the guy told me this is what the car designed to do after I told him about my braking 'problem'.

I was told that the suspension and alignment are really set up to perform the best under normal driving condition, and that includes braking at normal speed. It is no surprise there. Under braking the rear end will get lighted up and the rear suspension is going to give a little toe out and the car will stop brilliantly. But this is for normal speed braking. If you like me will need to brake at 120+ mph, the toe-out will becoming too excessive and it will cause that wriggling and fishtailing at the back end.

His suggestion is to dial in some toe-in at the rear, possibly around 3mm for both sides (ie 1.5mm on either side) This will, according to him, greatly increase the stability of the back end under track braking condition. The other possibility is to lower the car with stiffer suspension in order to control that nose diving, thus reducing the excessive toe-out under heavy braking.

Thanks for passing the info along. :)

SpeedRacer,

Are you going to make any alignment changes before hitting the WS?

One of the guys at work used to build custom race cars and has all of the equipment to do the alignment and corner weighting. The only question is whether he will have the time to do it before the track day.

>One of the guys at work used to build custom race cars .........
Great to have a friend like this ;-)

I think with your coilover setup, its essential to have a balanced corner weightings. Plus other necessary adjustments to go along with that.

It looks like we will be seriously out numbered by Hondas this weekend. Like to the tune of 12 to 1! :eek:

Not to worry, they are a good bunch of guys and they had a big turn out last year too. This time it sounds like they are starting the event off with a bang.

Yes, We're throwing the unofficial Sunday night meet and greet BBQ at Seneca lodge. The minimum buy in is $15. which will provide, Dogs, Burgers, Ribs, Chicken, Salads, Chips, Dips, Condiments, Plates, Cups and Utensils. It is a BYOB event and of course beer will be flowing.

It is being hosted by myself and the NY R-speed gang starting between 4 and 5 pm and most likely going till we pass out. We currently have 25 people signed up and paid for. We encourage prepayment to David Bowlin, either through paypal which will have a reservation cutoff by Thursday the 23rd.

There is a strict No pay No play rule based on past experience, but we may accept limited last minute newcomers at the Q depending on circumstances.

We put this together basically because last year we were sick of Mcdonalds and Pizza Hut by Monday night. Last year my wife and I ate at a decent restaruant near or on the water, I think John Berger was there with his own group too but I forgot the name of the place. But as with most track related deals many people arrive at all times and don't care to search for food and we wanted to combine it with a beforehand get together for some fun, and to meet the new faces.

Here is the link to that post and information for paypal contacts and what we have dicussed thus far:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=945338

I am currently wait listed for HPDE1, so doesn't look good at this point. :(

That's a bummer.

Have you tried talking to Joe Lee to see if it is possible to squeeze you in?

That's a bummer.

Have you tried talking to Joe Lee to see if it is possible to squeeze you in?

No, but who am I to expect special treatment, I'm not sure what I'd say? Do you know him or how would you go about it?

There are always a few cancelations and they are filled on a first come first serve basis. So if you follow up with them a few days before the event you might get lucky.

I've talked to Joe a couple of times last year. I can't say that I know him very well but he did seem like the guy who knew what was going on at each of the events and would be a likely person to contact for more info at the last minute.

:D - NASA just had a spot open up and I in!! I think for both days, not sure yet til I get details back from them. Now for the hotels and helmet!

Sweet! So there will be at least three of us going.

Tigger and I were going to meet up in Lebanon, NH on Sunday and then caravan over to the Glen. We both have rooms booked at the Longhouse Motel (see first post for more info). You should check to see if they have any rooms available.

When you go shopping for a helmet, making sure that it has at least a Snell M95 rating. You should also plan on wearing a long sleeved shirt, pants, and secure fitting shoes. Clothing should be made of natural fibers (i.e. cotton).

After a few phone calls last night I think we decided on meeting up in Albany, NY between 12:30 and 1:00. Seeing that none of us are familiar with Albany we just randomly picked a "convenient" place to meet. As it stands right now, the plan is to meet up between the James R 'dick' Greer Memorial Field and Dapper Farrell Park. (use 250 McCarty Ave, Albany, NY 12209 for driving directions)

I'll have my cell phone with me so just give me a call once you are near Albany and we will work out the final details as soon as we see the area. Once we are all there we can grab something for lunch then hit the road again. We should reach the Longhouse Motel around 6:00. (use 3625 State Route 14, Watkins Glen, NY 14891 for driving directions)

Some last minute things: remember to bring your NASA membership & track registration info, a small cooler to keep food & beverages fresh at the track, folding chair, painters tape to mask the headlights, long sleeved cotton shirt, eye protection (i.e. helmet with visor or glasses), etc...

Please re-read the first post for more info regarding HPDE (https://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/index.html).

The schedule for the event has been posted on the NASA website (http://www.nasanortheast.com/wg092704detail.html). Lots of great info so take the time to go through it all.

Hey Tigger you are going to be car #8! I'm glad I saw that before I made up the numbers.

I also noticed that there will be a Lotus Exige on the track on Monday. Now that is a car I want to check out. :D

It looks like we will have four RX-8s at the track. 3 of which will be running in HPDE1 and I'm going to be the oddball in HPDE2. There was one name I didn't recognize (Ronald Kornmiller). Do you guys know him?

The schedule says that the gates open at 6:00am and we should plan on being there a few minutes before that just to make sure that we can at least get one garage bay. That way we will have a decent area to work on the cars if the need arises.

Looks good, one thing, when I go to The Watkins Glenn web site and use the Mapquest tool shown there, their directions show using the southern I88 from Albany.

Total Est. Distance: 445.63 miles (north route)
Total Distance: 432.3 miles (south route)

As it is all interstate going south, and north it looks like a combination of backroads and highway, perhaps we should consider the south Interstate route. We'll already be tired of driving by the time we get to Albany, so shorter, easy Interstate driving would be my choice to get it over with asap.

The directions from MapQuest are kind of funny. If you ask for directions from where we will be stopping in Albany to the motel it chooses the northern route (3:41, 226 miles). If you request directions to the track it takes the southern route (3:53, 216 miles). Keep in mind that the motel is also a little north of the track (0:14, 7 miles).

It is interesting that it thinks that the shorter southern route will take longer. Either way is fine by me. I'll let you guys decide the road we take. :)

I think my friend is going to take the southern route, after discussions last night, he said it adds another 1hr + to his commute if he comes up to Albany... if we go south, we can probably meet him after lunch! That would be great!

4 8's nice!

--Tig!

Tigger,

Can you touch base with Pincus and figure out where & when he wants to meet up?

After a few phone calls last night I think we decided on meeting up in Albany, NY between 12:30 and 1:00.

About the planned meetup time in Albany... don't you think 12:30-1:00 is maybe an hour early? For me it's (theoretically) 3 1/2 hrs to Albany. Thats a 9AM start. If we get a quick bite in Albany, and are off to WG, we'll be there 4:30-5:00pm won't we? 5:30 to 6:30PM arrival is still daylight and would relax the times a little on the front end and also on the highway.

Hows about 1:30 to 2PM meetup in Albany instead? Thanks. :)

That is fine by me.

Tigger, is that going to work with you and Pincus?

Pincus will probably end up just meeting us at the hotel, though if the timing works out (we will call him on route), then we will meet in Binghamton.

As for the time shift. That is fine with me, however, I think we are looking at a 3 3/4 hr ride from Albany, and if we stop to have lunch for an hour... that would put us there around...

meet at 2 in Albany... eat till 3... arrive glen 6:45... and none of that takes into acount gas stops, which we will definaly need.

I say we aim more like 1:15-1:30 at the latest...

Thoughts?

I'm flexible, so you guys can duke it out and let me know when we should be in Albany. ;)

You guys go ahead, I'll meet you at the hotel. We'll can sit down over a nice dinner and swap travel stories. :) Safe trip to all...

By-the-by my Tmobile cell doesn't work anywhere near the Glen, but I'll be there by 6ish or before.

OK, I guess we will meet you at the motel.

Hey guys,

I had an awesome time hanging out with everyone at the track and it was great to meet some new people. Thanks for coming out.

Kerrie took a ton of photos and video of the event. The attached photos are just a teaser of what's to come.

The video from my bumper cam of the last 45-minute session came out well and the perspective really gives you a sense of speed. During that session I had a fun chasing down Aaron in his 944 Turbo. That car was surprisingly fast and it would slowly pull away on most of the straights.

Anyways, chime in and let me know what you thought of the event.

Pictures and/or video will come soon from those in attendance, but here's some first impressions:

Just back from 2 days and four+ hours total tack time learning Watkins Glen Race track with other RX-8s and dozens of other cars from race-prepared to stock, from BMWs to Cadillacs to Hondas to WRXs and little blown $h!t boxes that go like stink!

As a newbie, this was a once in a lifetime thrill without compare - and what a way to begin an addiction :D :D ! To be running flat out on a famous track such as this was such a thrill - I'm still on a speed induced rush!!!

Now I can personally lay some myths to rest once and for all - from my own experiences... if you have ever wondered if the 8 was track worthy box stock - yes it is absolutely! It's not the fastest, but far from the slowest. It's not the best handling, but able to wind its way past some pretty good machinery in the twisties, and even on the straights. Yes it could use more power, but it makes you feel clearly in control, with no apologies needed for its manners - thank you very much.

The NASA instructors were top notch, the organization excellent. The whole event an A++ thrill ride!! THANK YOU JEFF ESP!!!! and THANK YOU SpeedRacer for the invite and idea in the 1st place!!!

For all you who might hesitate to try this in the future - JUST DO IT! I was worried, yes, even a little scared to take my beloved 8 out on the big boys NASCAR track. I even doubted my own ability.

But not any more - never again - I trust this car - it is pretty damn near unflapable! The track was dry, the track was wet, the track was hot , then cold, and my trusty 8 never failed me - in fact it made me a feel like a star!!

I can't wait to do it again, and with some suspension work, some race tires, some engine mods, well all I can say is now I KNOW I HAVE a car that is WORTHY!

PS: That's me #88!

Now I’ve had a couple hours sleep, I can’t stop thinking through the dozens of times I circled Watkin Glen track. How many times that was exactly I haven’t a clue (got to check the gas slips)! I go over it again and again in my mind’s eye (what fun!). So then I went back over some previous threads of others experiences doing track days to see how mine compared and I see a lot of similarities. So I think I can feel confident my observations and opinions are valid for the car and not just ‘my car’ in particular.

So in no particular order here is what stays foremost in my memory. Sorry for the length, but if I don't get it out it just runs around in my head! I hope it is interesting to those in attendance and those contemplating future track days and remember, this was my 1st time on a track… :)

1) The brakes in the car are just plain awesome. :cool: They stop ‘right now’, over and over again. My instructor kept saying, “OK brake, brake!, brake!!”... and I’m thinking what’s the hurry? I have plenty of room! There was no fade evident, and actually except for some high speed haul-downs, I didn’t actually really use the brakes all that much, I mean, once I realized just how good they took the speed off. Also I also learned not to be worried the car would mess up in the turns, so I wasn’t constantly standing on them to scrub off too much speed.

2) The car is very easy to point where you want it to go. Except in really-really tight turns where it could wash out if you entered too fast. After I realized that, I think I (turned in and) followed the apexes pretty well. It was to the point the 2nd day, that I would have a conversation (during apexing!) with my instructor saying like, “What are those cars doing over there (way off the apex)? :cool: Why don’t they turn in?” He’d say, “I don’t know, they aren’t supposed to be over there, clearly!”

3) The track was huge. We did both the 2.45 and the 3.4 mile loops. You could run them in 4th gear (only!) if you wanted. Third could help in the tight spots though. But too much 3rd gear meant repeated up shifting, as after 8500 rpm, there’s really no more power there and no reason to not shift up and get the speed up. Staying in 3rd just kept speed down too often.

4) 4th gear has little acceleration after 95mph+. Frustrating :eek: , and esp. when trying to overtake and pass. More power please! Still, even for me, it was good for another 20 or so mph on this track.

5) The Bridgestone tires held up pretty well, no chunking, no noticeable rollover as there isn’t much to roll-over anyway. I ran 38psi cold 41.5 psi hot, which shows they really didn’t even work up much of a sweat. But I’m sure better tires would make a big improvement still. I chalked the tires, and it’s pretty much all there still. OK the ‘edge’ on the fronts is now gone, which I noticed that on the way home as changed on-center/off-center feel of the car. It turns in much more smoothly without that on-center inertia (that’s why I took a careful look at the tires). Sort of like worn in sneakers I guess :D !

6) The rear brakes actually appear to have done something. In street driving, I regularly clean only the fronts of brake dust, the rears usually have nothing on them. These two days they finally got some dust on them.

7) I left the DSC on (self preservation instinct!) and I only noticed it working on a couple tight off-camber sharp turn-ins, where it would tap on and lock the front outside wheel for a second repeatedly. Otherwise, I could hang the ass out like no tomorrow, full power to the rears, hang on and enjoy the ride! What a rush even if in some turns I felt like I was heeled over to full suspension stops. It just stayed out of the way (I think anyway).

8) I used to ski Sugarloaf Mountain all the time, and this car in the Glen’s so called ‘bus-stop’ [3 or 4 tight turns in the course of about 200 ft], gave me that feeling of shushing down the ski trial all over again. It sashays from side to side soooo wonderfully, it feels so natural and smooth. What a rush!!! :D

9) I now realize that unless I would try to recreate an episode of “Cops- High Speed Chases”, nothing I would ever get into on the street would use a fraction of the potential of this car’s handling capabilities. But in an unexpected emergency maneuver, I now know I can depend on this car’s capability to help me, not hurt me.

10) SpeedRacer’s suspension/engine/intake/exhaust/cat mods and skill level let his 8 leave me in the dust. Bottom line, there’s much more to this car after stock setup is left behind, believe it or not. And likely more to come as development matures. Something to look forward to, something to aspire to :) .

11) What’s with these NASA guys? - 3 Thumbs Up! I means the instructors are excellent, the staff and classroom training is very helpful. And, really, where else for little money (or ANY money) are you going to find people with great track knowledge, and racing knowledge in general, to CALMLY set next to people who’ve NEVER been to the track before, in a stock car, and gently advise them – IN REAL TIME – how best not to get into trouble and do damage to themselves –the instructors I mean - and the students and their cars!! I mean really – these guys have to be totally nuts, or super dedicated and addicted to the sport! Three cheers guys, you are the best! I’m proud to be part of the club.

12) Counting 3 nights lodging, food, 2 full days track 6am-5pm, in-car and classroom instructors, oh yes and the gas - all for something like $1K total I think I spent, this has to be the steal of the century any way you cut it.

13) FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN, I was screaming FUN at the top of my lungs as I went solo :cool: :D :eek: around the track!

Thanks for all the info! I will be at the Glen next weekend for my 2nd track weekend of my life. This track sounds alot more fun than Pocono was.

FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN, I was screaming FUN at the top of my lungs as I went solo :cool: :D :eek: around the track!

Wow.. I am now starting to regret not taking this opportunity. However, you mentioned that the whole trip costs ~$1K? I thought the price was around $120+ per day? Factor in room and gas, it shouldn't cost more than $600, right?

I was just adding up my receipts and it is scary that it added up to $1,000.

$325 - 2 track days
$35 - Annual membership
$285 - 3 nights in a "deluxe" room
$160 - 8 tanks of gas
$100 - meals

You could easily save about $275 by bringing your own meals, sharing a basic room, and staying only two nights.

SpeedRacer,

Sounds like you guys really have a blast at the Glen ;-) Btw, just want to see how's your impression on your new suspension setup. Does it help stablizing the rear-end and get rid of most of the fish-tailing under hard braking??

Btw, for those who want to relish the thrill of driving at the Glen again or for those kicking yourself for not being there the last time. Here is your another chance. This time the event is hosted by the PCA and the date is 10/18-19. The details is in http://www.schattenbaum.org

Hope to see some other 8's out there this time other than myself ;-)

Pete

p.s. Looks like we're going to have more track junkies hanging out in this forum from now on :D

RotaryZZ,

Unlike a lot of people I don't have my car setup to ride like a brick. Instead I chose to increase the spring rates and damping so that I wouldn't contact the bump stops but left it compliant enough to soak up the irregularities of the track.

The car felt great and all of the prep work paid off. When blasting through corners I noticed that the body roll was significantly less than when the car was stock. In the past the body roll was bad enough to hit the bump stops and that is completely gone. Weight transfer is much more controlled and the stability is noticeably better even in the hard braking zones.

Speaking of brakes, I had zero brake fade with the revised setup (Motul 600 brake fluid, stainless lines, and Carbotech XP8-9 pads). Once the pads are hot they dig in like there is no tomorrow. Highly recommended! :)

It is tempting but I think I have to pass on the PCA event. I don't think my checking account could take another track day this soon. We'll have to meet up for a track event in the Spring.

P.S. NASA will give us a 10% discount if we can get 10 people to sign up for an event.

WOW! What a blast! I took my Nordic Green 8, (someone had to represent a color besides red at the track :p ).

As has already been said, the car handled exceptionally well. It was very predictable and really felt great everywhere.

A little more power would have been nice for the straights but on the whole, for a completely stock car, I was very impressed.

The NASA guys were great, and my instructor was very good. It’s got to take a lot of guts to get into a car with a complete stranger and sit there as he wings the thing around a track at over 100 miles an hour.

As for the price, really a bargain I thought. I figure I spent around 800 (plus the one time cost of a helmet.) The instruction alone is well worth everything I paid for my time on the track.

This being my first time running my car on a track, I started out a bit slow and worked my way up, by the end of the second day, my speeds were very impressive. The car is not the fastest thing on the track, but it holds its own very well. And as SpeedRacer demonstrated, with a little bit of suspension work and experience, the car will do a lot more.

I went to the track with the attiude that I didn’t know what I was doing, and was very open to any suggestions I got. I know that I could have pushed the car a lot harder then I did, and as my speeds increased and my skill improved the second day, it was clear there was a lot more the car would do, even in it’s stock form, then I was ready to try. Next time I think my confidence will be a bit higher, and after a few warm up laps, and reminders from an instructor, I should be able to begin really pushing the car a bit more.

I can’t wait to go back! This is clearly going to become a serious habit. And for anyone who is a bit shy about there skills, not to worry, the instructors are very good at working with you, and making sure you feel comfortable. There were a lot of us first timer's and no one seemed to have an ego or the need to prove anything. I just went out, started out where I felt comfortable, and slowly got faster and better, till I realized, heck, the car isn't even getting worked yet! I was a bit nervous at first about looking like I had no clue what I was doing, but there was no pressure from anyone, and I think a lot of other people were feeling the same way I was.

If anyone has ever wondered what there car can do, and would like to have a little fun zipping through some fantastic corners, I would highly recommend this!

--Tigger!

Man, I wish I had gone. $1k is a little stiff, but would have been worth it. I would defintiely be up for a Spring track day. I should have new tims, tires, and shocks by that point (maybe the RB suspension kit too).

I notice Spin9k and Tigger were asking for more from the Wankel, but Speed Racer didn't say the same.. Speed Racer, did the CZ help out a lot on the straights?

I don't know that we need more, it would just make the back straights a bit faster... my car was also hurting as two of my ignition coil packs were dead when I went... so I was already lacking power.

The car defiantly has enough power to make the track a blast. Like all things, there is always more of something that would be nice... but really, my driving skills are no where near what are neccessary to get the most out of the car as it is stock... so more power would be nice, but i figure I'll first improve my breaks and supension, while I try and get my skills up to what the car can do as it is now...

After I figure out how to push the car the way it is... then I'll worry about getting more out of the engine!

:)

>it would just make the back straights a bit faster...
You should able to reach to about 120mph just before squeezing on the brake hard for the entrance to the bus stop.

>my car was also hurting as two of my ignition coil packs were dead
How can you tell and what's the symptom feel like?

>but i figure I'll first improve my breaks and supension
I've switched to Mazdaspeed pads only instead of any dedicated track pads and they perform great!

SpeedRacer,

>Weight transfer is much more controlled and the stability is
>noticeably better even in the hard braking zones.

So the new suspension setup you have did lessen the squirrling and instability at the back end under heavy braking or does it get rid of the problem altogether?

Btw, have you done any alignment after you put in the new suspension. Speaking of new suspension pieces, did you replace the bushings as well or kept the OEM rubber?

TIA
Pete

RotaryZZ - it would just make the back straights a bit faster...
You should able to reach to about 120mph just before squeezing on the brake hard for the entrance to the bus stop.


Interesting, I reached an indicated 118 (likely overoptimistic speedo) on my best run before throwing out the anchor at the bus stop, but I feel that if I'd dare just nail it out of turn 1 and not let up through turn 2 a little (which i always did) I would have easily been able to get significantly more speed up. For some reason I just never let myself do that (something to concentrate on doing next time).

The squirliness was evident at the bus stop when braking only when I didn't let up on the brakes going striaght, i.e., if I did a little trailing brake it felt weird, but nothing I couldn't recover from, although I'd rather not have to deal with that dancing rear end just there obviously. Boy I love those brakes, they just haul down the car NOW! :D

If there is a quick fix for that behavior it would be nice.

RotaryZZ, you going to join us next time? Sounds like you'd have had a blast out there with us!

A few thoughts on your question...

Speed down the back straight... I know my speedo read at least 119, though I must admit that I tended to break a little early when I was going that fast, and I didn't always check my speed as I was approaching the bus-stop. With a bit more practice on turn 1 (my worst corner... just seemed to keep getting it wrong) I could probably carry a lot more speed out of the S’s and gain at least 5-10 miles an hour…

I think SpeedRacer was up around 130 at least on the back stretch.

I’m defiantly going to consider track pads, and steel lines, as well as high temp break fluid... but having said that, the brakes are incredible stock... though I imagine the new break pads coming from Mazda are not going to be as aggressive.

I didn’t notice the back end being that squirrelly, especially compared to a lot of other cars I’ve driven... and as Spin9k said, what was there was very controllable, even under heavy breaking from high speed. I suspect if I had a new suspension, and the bit of squirrellyness I was feeling was gone, I probably would have run the back straight farther into the breaking zone before I went on the breaks.

Only other time I felt the back end seem squirrelly was when I did something stupid like hit the brakes while beginning to turn in to a corner… but back on the gas hard and the car regained its composer beautifully!

As for checking the coil’s there are a number of posts on how to check this, and I must thanks SpeedRacer for helping me check and confirm that mine were going. Main ways of telling are running issues and lack of power issues (especially if a leading coil goes, as was my case on one rotor... we swapped the bad coil to the trailing and that helped a lot.), also you can visually inspect the coils, the often blister on the top (search the forum for pics ‘ignition coils’) or in the case of my coils, there is a very clear oval about .5 to .75 inches in diameter that is noticeable on the underside… it is very white and looks like it has seriously overheated. All four of my packs had some form of that oval on the back, though two were still performing ok, according to the diagnostic check Mazda recommends. And that leads to the last check you can do... again posted elsewhere and simply cut and pasted here... this procedure should take you only about .5-1 hour to do and requires very few tools besides a few wrenches, sockets and a multi- meter.






IGNITION COIL REMOVAL/INSTALLATION
Remove the engine cover. (See ENGINE COVER REMOVAL/INSTALLATION .)

Remove the battery cover.

Remove the negative battery cable.

Remove the air cleaner duct.

Unbolt the two clamps for the intake accordian tube. Pull the airbox up and and then out. You should be able to keep everything attatched and still move the aribox enough to allow clearance. Move the accordian tube off to the side, away from the coilpacks which were under it. Remove that one wire clipped in above the #1 coilpack.

Remove coil packs

Unplug the coilpack. Unbolt the coilpack with a 10mm socket. remove the coilpack.

IGNITION COIL INSPECTION
Ignition Coil With Built-in Power Switch Inspection
Disconnect the ignition coil connector.

Measure the resistance between each terminal on the ignition coil connector.


If the measurement corresponds to the table, replace the ignition coil.

- +

A B ------infinity or continuity is abnormal
C B -------infinity or continuity is abnormal
C A ------(0) to several kilohm (continuity) is abnormal


The test is performed looking at the coil with the terminal end pointing UP

The terminals are C-B-A

RotaryZZ,

The stability problems are gone with the new suspension setup. The only issues I had with stability involved trail braking or track conditions (rain or sealant on pavement). I'm still using the OEM bushings and my next performance mod will be R-compound tires. As the stock tires were the real limiting factor this time at the track.


RPIRX-8,

You know me, I'd love to have more power and I've been slowly working on fixing that. Even with the deficit in power I didn't have any problems catching and occassionally passing the 350Z, STi, and EVO that were in HPDE2. All of those cars were faster in the straights but I was able to close the gaps in the corners especially in the Bus Stop. The car is so easy to control at the limit that it makes you feel like a better driver and in turn gives you more confidence to push it harder. I know that the 350Z driver was complaining that his car was hard to control and he was a bit scared of taking it any where near the limit.

You'll get a kick out of this, in the last session I met up with a plain jane Civic hatchback and was more than a little surprised when he pulled away from me! It turns out that he had an Integra Type-R engine, coil-overs, track pads, etc... I have to give the guy kudos because he also knew how to drive the car well.


My day ended on a sad note. When I was waiting to turn into my drive way I got hit from behind. The nimrod just wasn't paying attention. So it looks like I will back in a rental for another month or two. :(

Holy Crap SpeedRacer, your 8 must either be cursed or it just attracts idiots. That sucks so bad... esp. after such a otherwise nice trip... turning into your driveway!!! :(

Yikes! :eek: My condolences. Is it only cosmetic or was it hard enough to bend the body?

The damage looks to be fairly light just like the last time ($13k). He hit me hard enough to ruin the bumper, trunk, quarter panel, tail light, and exhaust. The suspension and drive train appear to be undamaged. The damage is that light because when I noticed that he wasn't stopping I tried to gun it to get out of his way. Maybe I should have just stood on the brakes and let him total the car.

I think that my car must be jinxed. I've never had this many problems before (2 accidents, 4 cracked windshields, clutch, front brakes, coils & plugs). All of that in just over a year and 26k miles. If I thought that I could sell the car without loosing a lot of money I would do it tomorrow.

Wow, does that suck! I was always a bit nervos turning into your driveway... now I know why. No reason for an accident like that though... 20 mile an hour zone, straight, lots of breakdown lane space and clear visability... not to mention, it is hard to miss your car, bright red and all. I hope you got the police involved and everyone told the same story... What must your insurance company be thinking!

Is the exhaust destoryed or just a kinked pipe somewhere? You going to replace it with another Borla?

If I thought that I could sell the car without loosing a lot of money I would do it tomorrow.

Here's another idea - gut the inside (to go along with the outside), add a racing seat, fire extingisher and roll bars - get someone's bumper on the board cheap that has mod'ed theirs to pretty up the outside, straighten out the exhaust, and go racing for real.

Bet you could get the weight down by like 500 lbs to maybe 2600 lbs, and with the rest of your performance mods, you have one haul-ass machine there!! :D

Then as a bonus sell all the parts removed piecemeal to recoup. :) ... and buy that POS Prius you were driving earlier... :rolleyes:

Roy:

Sorry to hear about your accident. Man does that suck! :( We'll keep you in spirits on the Fall Run. At least the place you had paint your 8 last time should know how to mix it up properly ;) Good luck and sorry for your loss...

Sorry to hear about the accident, Speed Racer. Nothing makes sense - it's a bright red car! It's probably a good time now to install the rear mudflaps. On the bright side, you can start saving gas money again with the Prius!

I think the "Prius" is a four letter word... gas savings or not. :p

Don't even get me started on the Prius. Cars that drive that bad should be banned. :mad:

When I went to pick up a rental on Saturday they only had a Prius and a few trucks to chose from. I told them I'd rather wait until Monday so that I could pick up a Mazda3 instead. Gotta keep it in the family. ;)


Anyways back on the topic of Watkins Glen. You can find some photos and videos of the event on the NASA Northeast Forum (http://www.nasaforums.com/viewforum.php?f=24&sid=aee01e6773678aa50abbf61c2a480c88)

Spin9k, Tigger:

Well, the squirliness of the back end also depends on how hard you squeeze on the brake in the braking zone. I've used to stand on the brake in between the 100 and 200 feet marker before the bus stop in my other car without any drama. Of course I can't do it with the 8 now as its getting really nervous! I started applying the brake at around the 300 feet market instead.

Btw, I've used the Mazdaspeed pads and they're great! Without sorting out the problem with the backend I think its useless to go with any full-blown track pads. Speaking of which, seems like SpeedRacer has fixed the problem with the stiffer suspension setup. I think that helps to control the issues of weight transfer and potential excessive toe-out under heavy braking situation.

>RotaryZZ, you going to join us next time? Sounds like you'd have had a >blast out there with us!
Sure I would love to. I've never go with the NASA before as I used to go with PCA and BMWCCA folks. How long is each run session and how many run groups are there? Btw, did anyone go with these folks at all? http://www.mazdadrivers.com/

>As for checking the coil’s ......................................
What exactly is causing this to happen and how common is this problem? I guess you'll really feel the big loss of power if that happens right?


SpeedRacer,

I'm pleased to hear that you've get rid of the instability problem with the stiffer suspension setup. What kind of coil-over you've btw? I wonder how it feels comparing to the the Mazdaspeed suspension?

Did you have the car corner-balanced and re-aligned after putting in the new suspension. Coil-over supposed to be great but I'm just worried about the almost infinite adjustability and its effects on the car. I supposed if I've the equipment and the time then it'll be fun to play with the settings :-)

>........ my next performance mod will be R-compound tires.
I agree but personally I don't think its such a big issue in Watkins Glen. I think it'll make more of a difference in tracks like Summit Point and Jefferson as they've more turns and shorter straightaways in between.
On my last 2 laps of the session while in Summit Point, the OEM tires just won't hold it anymore. Even when I aimed at the apex the car just sliding away from it!
So, what kind of R-tire you've in mind for the 8 for next season?

>Even with the deficit in power I didn't have any problems catching and >occassionally passing the 350Z, STi ......................
That reminds me of my last track event at Summit Point. I've played with a 928 for 3, 4 laps. That car has about 100 more hp than the 8 with a big V8, but I was all over his bumper everywhere on the track except the long front straight. Once we got on the straight, I only see him just walking away from me and there is nothing I can do about it. What a bummer! :-(

>but I was able to close the gaps in the corners especially in the Bus Stop
I usually do the catch up on the big, slight downhill band right after the bus stop section.

>When I was waiting to turn into my drive way I got hit from behind.
I'm sorry to hear this. It sure feels sucks especially you're almost home. There are just too many idiots driving in this country!

:D Happy to hear there are others out there trying out the Glen. I went with the Shelby Club of Rochester at the end of August. This year the format changed ... for the better might I add. 4 - 40 min. session / day (2 days) for about the same price you guys have said for the advance guys.
It was the first time I went with the 8. I also was able to compare notes with another 8 (also from Mich). I got to show him my lines.

He was surprised at the lap times (as much as I was - he was timing from the passenger seat). Pretty good for virtually stock.

I find that the "real" measure is the entire package (car + driver) and not just the car. I have experienced quite a few "high powered"cars with drivers who exhibit poor lines and rely on long straightaways to feel "fast". Unfortunately, they usually feel less courteous to let you by because you are in a lesser car.... but the funny thing is, you were not behind them from the start of the lap, so wouldn't that imply that you were faster because you are behind them now? (a leap of logic too great for some). :confused:

With NASA you normally get 4 25-minute track sessions per day. On Tuesday they changed the schedule and I ended up with 2 25-minute HPDE2 and 2 45-minute HPDE1/2 sessions. I really enjoyed the longer sessions and being able to get into a rhythm.

When the coils start to fail you will notice a slight decrease in power and it runs a bit rough. As things get worse you may hear a gurgling sound under full throttle, large decrease in power, and a rough idle.

I never had a chance to corner balance the car but I was already happy with how the car handles. I spent the better part of a month tweaking the ride height, spring pre-load, and damping to get the car to feel balanced. Next season I will get an earlier start and get the car setup in the off season when my friends, with the alignment tools, have the time to spare. FYI - I have the JIC Magic FLT-A2S coil-overs but if I was to do it again I would seriously consider springs and shocks with adjustable damping. I think that you could get the same performance and save a fair amount of time with the tuning.

My friends have been using Hoosier R3S04 tires all season and seem to like them. So I will probably follow in their footsteps and use the same tires and alignment settings that they have been using with their RX-8s.

I find that the "real" measure is the entire package (car + driver) and not just the car. I have experienced quite a few "high powered"cars with drivers who exhibit poor lines and rely on long straightaways to feel "fast". Unfortunately, they usually feel less courteous to let you by because you are in a lesser car.... but the funny thing is, you were not behind them from the start of the lap, so wouldn't that imply that you were faster because you are behind them now? (a leap of logic too great for some). :confused:

I know what you mean, in HPDE2 we had a lot of problems with people refusing to give point-bys and in each case they were driving a higher horsepower car. Specifically, a Corvette and Camaro come to mind. ;)

>4 - 40 min. session
That would be nice and fun if you and the tires hold up that long :-)
Btw, how much do they charge for the 2-day event?

Did anyone notice the blue Volvo S40? It turns out that the guy's car was in the shop because the dealership was being slow so they gave him a loaner and that is what he drove at the Glen. :p

>I have the JIC Magic FLT-A2S coil-overs
Mind I ask how much do they cost?

>I would seriously consider springs and shocks with adjustable damping
That's what I'm waiting for the latest adjustable Koni for our 8.

>My friends have been using Hoosier R3S04 tires all season and seem to like >them.
Personally, I probably would go for either Kumho or Toyo. I'm not looking for the fastest and stickest tires out there, but rather I want something durable, that can withstand the heat as well as having a predictable and progressive break-away characteristics.

>Did anyone notice the blue Volvo S40?
Just curious, how the S40 did on the track?

I spent $1500 on the coil-overs but I think that you will be able to pick up a nice matched set of springs and shocks for less. FYI - Casual Racing has been using Koni shocks all season so I would expect them to be available some time soon. One nice thing about the shocks was the separately adjustable compression and rebound damping.

You may also want to consider the new Falken Azenis which are due to come out in the Spring. The new tire will actually be made in a size that is appropriate for our cars and it is supposed to have improved wet and dry handling.

The S40 looked very stable through the corners but it was significantly slower than the RX-8.

Yea, I heard he told them he was going on a trip and needed his car by Friday, they assured him he would have it... and when they didn't they gave him the loaner... bet he didn't mention his 300 mile trip was around a track...

I'm experiencing an interesting side-effect I attribute to track days, just wondering if anyone else notices this. In a nutshell, the daily driving feel of the car has gone through a metamorphosis (10,024 miles). Bottom line, the car is even better now than before, where I was afraid it might be the other way around after Watkins Glen ! It's like the car has finally "grown up".

Before:

1) Car felt 'tight', i.e., seemed reluctant to rev freely from a start, certainly went, but felt like I had to push the accelerator a lot to get significant power. When I let off, strong engine brake effect.

2) Brakes were grabby, very sensitive to initial pedal.

3) Strong on-center road feel, shown as a resistance in the steering wheel to turn 'off-center'. In sweeping fast turns, required little corrections to maintain line.

Now:

1) Car revs very easily, much better throttle response. I might say the throttle response is more 'linear' and car doesn't engine brake as obviously, esp. in low gears.

2) Brakes are NOT grabby at all, no noticeable initial sensitivity, now just a smooth but effective haul down. Much easier to modulate esp. in traffic.

3) Car has less 'turn-inertia’; steering wheel has less on-center resistance. In sweeping fast turns, car tracks very smoothly, little correction needed.

:D Life is good! :D

Guess the car is finally "lossen up" ;-)

I finally got my photos and a couple video clips uploaded. So go check them out! :D

Photos and videos (http://mystorageplace.verizon.net)
Username: Sikkink
Password: guest

Once I receive Spin9k's in car videos I'll get a little more creative with the editing and also put in more shots from the event.

>4 - 40 min. session
That would be nice and fun if you and the tires hold up that long :-)
Btw, how much do they charge for the 2-day event?


:) If I remember right, it is around $375 or so. This was the same price as the previous year where I ran 4 - 20 min sessions for 2 days.

I actually corded one tire but that was more driver issue than car. Trying to hard after the bus stop down the hill towards the laces. Too fast = ruined front left :(
"The driver :rolleyes: has had a stern talking too from the car owner. :mad: "

>I have the JIC Magic FLT-A2S coil-overs
Mind I ask how much do they cost?

>I would seriously consider springs and shocks with adjustable damping
That's what I'm waiting for the latest adjustable Koni for our 8.

>My friends have been using Hoosier R3S04 tires all season and seem to like >them.
Personally, I probably would go for either Kumho or Toyo. I'm not looking for the fastest and stickest tires out there, but rather I want something durable, that can withstand the heat as well as having a predictable and progressive break-away characteristics.

>Did anyone notice the blue Volvo S40?
Just curious, how the S40 did on the track?

I use the Kumhos V700s - 40 series. They have lasted quite well and stick consistenly. They are also a great value. :) Hoosiers are very pricey (at least for me) :( . The others available I have not tried but are also pricey so I had not looked into getting more info. on them.
Granted, I am also not looking for the last 10th either. There are still quite a few seconds to get out of the driver before looking into 10ths.

>I use the Kumhos V700s - 40 series ........
There are a few R-tires from Kumho nowadays. Wonder what are the differences among them?

Btw, how do you like the V700? Are they very predictable, progressive and screams like a street tires at the limits? I was told Khumo R-tires (or R-tires in general?) like aggressive alignment too!

I finally got my photos and a couple video clips uploaded. So go check them out! :D

Photos and videos (http://mystorageplace.verizon.net)
Username: Sikkink
Password: guest

Once I receive Spin9k's in car videos I'll get a little more creative with the editing and also put in more shots from the event.

Ack, looks like bandwidth has been exceeded :(

Well that sucks. :(

If you have an FTP site I can send it directly to you or I can burn everything on to a CD and give it to you the next time we meet up.

>I use the Kumhos V700s - 40 series ........
There are a few R-tires from Kumho nowadays. Wonder what are the differences among them?

Btw, how do you like the V700? Are they very predictable, progressive and screams like a street tires at the limits? I was told Khumo R-tires (or R-tires in general?) like aggressive alignment too!

I had the VictorRacer on my previous car I had at the track. :cool: I was able to run them without having to shave them. They too held up with all the laps and abuse I put on them. The V700s have to be shave otherwise I was told that they chunk off.
I think they are pretty solid for an R-compound tire. I don't believe they make any "screaming" sounds (like most if not all R's) but rather produce a shuddering sensation as a result of the tire losing traction and regaining traction at the edge of the limit... at least that's what I have noticed and experienced. :D
These tires are also more progressive to the limit as opposed to Hoosiers where go over the limit more drastically. :eek: (The limit of the Hoosiers are higher)
I have kept my alignment stock since I still use it as my daily driver some of the time. :rolleyes:

>I don't believe they make any "screaming" sounds (like most if not all R's) >but rather produce a shuddering sensation .............

So its the feeling sensation instead of an audio warning that the R-tires will give you at the limit.

>These tires are also more progressive to the limit as opposed to Hoosiers >where go over the limit more drastically.
That's good to hear! Sounds like you'll still have the chance to correct it once you're starting to go over the limit.

>I don't believe they make any "screaming" sounds (like most if not all R's) >but rather produce a shuddering sensation .............

So its the feeling sensation instead of an audio warning that the R-tires will give you at the limit.

That's correct. If you haven't experienced R's then you should ride along with someone in the same car with experience to show how much difference the grip level is.

>These tires are also more progressive to the limit as opposed to Hoosiers >where go over the limit more drastically.
That's good to hear! Sounds like you'll still have the chance to correct it once you're starting to go over the limit.

I can only say that I have tried to walk closer to the edge without crossing over all the times I have gone out since getting them and haven't crossed over yet. Still can't afford to spin it and wreck.