The Bible states that in the early days people lived 900+ years.. we now live 75 - 85 years..

Chinese lore has it that we were 7' tall.. only Yao Ming fits that..

WHAT HAPPEND!?

preservatives.

sporks

preservatives.

Ha, my mom always told me that eating Ramen noodles will stunt my growth, amongst other thing. :rolleyes:

what's with all the bible questions, guy? are you trying to prove that the bible is merely a collection of fairy tales?

what's with all the bible questions, guy? are you trying to prove that the bible is merely a collection of fairy tales?

theres a post that should get some neat responses hehe

cigarettes...duh!

According to the Bible it was the flood. After the fall in the Garden of Eden we are supposed to have been slowly loosing life expectency. The only problem with that is that we have been going the other direction since the middle ages...

According to the Bible it was the flood. After the fall in the Garden of Eden we are supposed to have been slowly loosing life expectency. The only problem with that is that we have been going the other direction since the middle ages...

does that mean we are defying God?

No, just means since the flood, we were treading downhill, but since the middle ages we have gone back up with technology and health care.. We're getting smarter as we had before God divided everyone across the countries, adding language barriers and such.. starting us over in other wards.

Actually, I believe life span only went down in the MI in europe , then increased.. now we're seeing increases because of medical science..

I do believe that the average citizen of the Roman Empire lived longer than a European of the Middle Ages.. during that time it seems the Roman systems for water fell into disuse and people did not bathe and such so disease was rampant. This was not true of Muslim and Asians for the most part.

God truly works in mysterious ways, i wanna be let in on the secret that is the purpose of existence

Excellent question! I always wondered about that when I was a kid, although we didn't dare question it.

For the people who talk about the the flood and life expectancy, I have never heard that. Do you have anything to back up your claims?

You never heard of the flood?? o.O

I now the story of the flood (Noah's Ark, animals 2 by 2, rain 40 days/nights, olive branch, etc). It's just that I've never heard of the flood being used as the reason for the shortened life span.

You never heard of the flood?? o.O


thats what its called when our rotary engines stall on a cold morning right... ;)

I now the story of the flood (Noah's Ark, animals 2 by 2, rain 40 days/nights, olive branch, etc). It's just that I've never heard of the flood being used as the reason for the shortened life span.

Oh lol. Well, its not a specific reason. It wasn't caused to shorten ppl's life span, but we're noting that the span went down after that is all. The flood was to purge the evils that had populated the earth at that time and to start over anew.

my questions is, how did Noah get 2 of each animal on there?

#1) how did he get a hold of polar bears, penguins, and other animals from colder regions in which he was nowhere near? how did he get crocodiles, kangaroos, or koalas? how about deer, moose, caribou?

#2) how did he get the lions, aligators, wild boars, and other aggressive animals to behave themselves without eating each other?

#3) what did all these animals eat if they could not eat each other?

#4) waste disposal?

#5) does God not care about plants and insects? if so, where did they come from after the flood?

i'm willing to bet that there was no Ark, David got his ass kicked by Goliath, and Daniel was sprinkled with some Mrs. Dash and lemon pepper and the lions had a feast =)

1. god told the animals where to go.
2. god told the animals to behave
3. the food that Noah et al stocked on board. it was a BIG ship. they at a vegetarian diet like they all did before the fall of the Garden.
4. flushed out with sea water when necessary.
5. god protected them

and you might want to hold off that betting on the Ark read this (http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=21795)

and this (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/noahs_ark_010823-1.html)

People weren't good at numbers.

They looked at an old person and figured he/she was at least 500 years old. :)

This thread is in imminent danger of being closed. To HeTz: religious threads only become flamefests when mental pimp is involved!

You can't deny that MP is a fountain of enlightenment and delight.

1. impossible that some of them had to swim across the entire ocean. if they could swim the entire ocean, and in less than 40 days and 40 nights, whey even put them on the Ark? they're VERY good swimmers already...

2. if it was so easy for God to tell these animals to behave, why not tell everyone and everything to behave instead of flooding the place and destroying all the corruption?

3. according to the Book of Genesis, the Ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high...that's hardly big enough...according to the 2003 World Book Encyclopedia, there are over 1.5 million species of animals...now you multiply that by 2 and you get an impossible situation of fitting all of them on a ship made completely out of gopher wood, slime, and tar.

4. i didn't know Kohler made toilets back then ;)

5. if it were that easy, why have Noah build an Ark? why not just "protect" them too through the flood like he did with all the insects and plant life?

i'd suspect those were rocks jutting out of the snow...if there was an Ark it'd be completely decomposed by now and there would be more substantial evidence proving the existence of Noah's Ark...

and i'm not trying to prove you wrong...i'm just questioning that which i've always questioned my entire life...i can't simply believe that things are or happen just because God made it that way...without questioning things, you never learn truth...

1) If im not mistaken, I believe the geology of the earth was different back then, am I wrong? I might be, but if not that would be the answer to that.

2) Its easier to hush animals to make them behave for 40 days/nights in order to repopulate the world again than it is to just control humans to be mindless drones and be nice to eachother. Its just not how God wanted to control us.. else everyone would believe in him now.

3) Good question, dunno. Perhaps there were fewer animals in that time than today, and since have just evolved.. my theory (mixing with science).

4) lol toilets for animals.. :D

5) You're silly. lol Because building an ark not only proves Noah's willingness to cooperate and obey God's commands, but also its a bit more believable to be saved on an arc than it is for a super human strength bubble shield to encompous everyone to protect them. :D :D As for God protecting them while on the Arc.. its the same as a gaurdian angel watching over us while driving in the car, etc...

And actually B, there have been documentaries on tape that have shown footage of the arc on the mountain up close.. they've even traversed the inside of the arc and have gathered samples of the wood for tests which dated the arc near around the time frame it was said to exist (oh i don't remember the exact time frame, but they did state it in the doc.). It was a seperate National Geographic document I believe.

You cannot argue religion. It is based upon faith, either you believe or you don't.

The Ark, or parts of it, might still exist. Remember Otzi (the Ice Man).

You cannot argue religion. It is based upon faith, either you believe or you don't.

The Ark, or parts of it, might still exist. Remember Otzi (the Ice Man).

If they find a wooden ships on a mountain, how do you for certain that it is THE ARK?


I remember from high school ancient history that the Biblical flood was inspired by the Babylonian Myth, The Epic of Gilgamesh. There is a lot of similarities between the two stories. Here is an excerpt:

"....He advised the walls of Utnapishtim's house to build a great boat, its length as great as its breadth, to cover the boat, and to bring all living things into the boat. Utnapishtim gets straight to work and finishes the great boat by the new year. Utnapishtim then loads the boat with gold, silver, and all the living things of the earth, and launches the boat. Ea orders him into the boat and commands him to close the door behind him. The black clouds arrive, with the thunder god Adad rumbling within them; the earth splits like an earthenware pot, and all the light turns to darkness. The Flood is so great that even the gods are frightened:

The gods shook like beaten dogs, hiding in the far corners of heaven,
Ishtar screamed and wailed:
"The days of old have turned to stone:
We have decided evil things in our Assembly!
Why did we decide those evil things in our Assembly?
Why did we decide to destroy our people?
We have only just now created our beloved humans;
We now destroy them in the sea!"
All the gods wept and wailed along with her,
All the gods sat trembling, and wept.

The Flood lasts for seven days and seven nights, and finally light returns to the earth. Utnapishtim opens a window and the entire earth has been turned into a flat ocean; all humans have been turned to stone. Utnapishtim then falls to his knees and weeps.

Utnapishtim's boat comes to rest on the top of Mount Nimush; the boat lodges firmly on the mountain peak just below the surface of the ocean and remains there for seven days. On the seventh day:

I [Utnapishtim] released a dove from the boat,
It flew off, but circled around and returned,
For it could find no perch.
I then released a swallow from the boat,
It flew off, but circled around and returned,
For it could find no perch.
I then released a raven from the boat,
It flew off, and the waters had receded:
It eats, it scratches the ground, but it does not circle around and return.
I then sent out all the living things in every direction and sacrificed a sheep on
that very spot.
....."

I think all religion has some influence on each other. Many of the belief in different religion are universal in all of humanity.

I think all religion has some influence on each other. Many of the belief in different religion are universal in all of humanity.

You are correct, and the story of a great flood is common across different cultures/religions.

BRx8 before i go on let me just say that i am far from a believer in what the bible stories say. i am merely taking the opposing view in the discussion for discussion sake. so (aheemm )

1. well god just parted the waters. and since Noah was already building the Ark it seemed like a good place for them. why let all that hard work go to waste?
2. He was mad at the people not the animals. no sense in wiping them out for man's problems.
3. animals come in all shapes and sizes. most of them are not that big at all. besides if santa can fit down a chimney certainly God would design a boat to fit them all. He's probably great at tetris also.
4. oh definetly they have been around for ever!
5. it was a test of Noah's faith. Besides during the flood God had to keep an eye on the fish.

what other large ship would be sitting on top of Mt. ararat? When they find "noah + naamah 4ever" scrawled inside a heart in hebrew on one of the boards will you believe it then. and yes there are flood stories from cultures all over the world- makes you think maybe there was some big flood after all, doesn't it?

what other large ship would be sitting on top of Mt. ararat? When they find "noah + naamah 4ever" scrawled inside a heart in hebrew on one of the boards will you believe it then. and yes there are flood stories from cultures all over the world- makes you think maybe there was some big flood after all, doesn't it?

Or it could Utnapishtim's boat on Mount Nimush.

Flood stories are in many cultures but is it because of one great flood or is it because flood is a common natural disaster than humanity has to deal with.

I'm not against any religion, I think there is a common theme across all of humanity's religion. I do think there is more than one interpretation of truth and spirtuality.

Thanks Magic8, that was a great post. I have to agree and more than most religions the Jewish faith has borrowed from every faith they have lived with.

For example, in Jewish belief there was no Satan (Hebrew letters Shin, Tau, Nun: meaning the adversary) didn't appear prior to their stint under Babylonian rule. The Babylonian religion had this relationship in early times between two of the most prominate gods. They didn't however look at the adversary as an evil figure rather as an antagonist who helped move things in a different directionl.

Another excellent example is the trinity of Christianity and it's relation with Judiasm. While the Jews were in Egypt they picked up on the Holy Trinity of Osiris (Asari), Isis (Aset), and Horus (Ra Hoor Khuit). Osiris was the father who ruled Egypt with his wife Isis. Some of Osiris' statesman became jealous of his popularity and plotted to kill him. Out of fear that he would resurrect himself they cut his body into pieces and hid the pieces througout the world. Isis went after the missing parts of Osiris and after putting her husband back together again absorbed his essence and became pregnant with Horus. Horus was then the resurrected form of Osiris. He went back with the help of Thoth and avenged his father/former self. Osiris represented the Father (Adonai), Isis represneted the Holy Spirit (Shadai El Chai) and Horus represented the Son (Yeheshua). It is not too hard to see how this trinity was formed from Egyptian mythology.

And to really delve into the mysteries of the Bible you need to be well versed in the Talmud not just the Torah. I highly recommend any would be scholars to get a better than average understanding of Hebrew, Aramaic, world religions, and history. All these things are important when considering the translations of the Bible. I have the hardest time when I am talking to someone about religion when I discover that I know more about the core of their religion than they do. I shouldn't they should learn to be a true scholar prior to interpreting the Bible.

Don't get me wrong here I'm not putting anyone down here on this forum but I have run into many would be self-proclaimed scholars that can't recite the Hebrew alphabet. I am no professed scholar but I have at least studied to a good extent what I talk about. I know I don't always pipe up at the religious conversations with lots of scholarly material but I have a fairly decent background. If you believe in what the Bible says and it works for you then the better for you. And I am glad to see that in this thread we aren't attacking each other for the shared beliefs. I know that just like Kari and Zoom44 I have what amounts to beliefs and faith. I don't try to hide behind the name of science I just try to incorporate what I see around me into my belief. Maybe in a sense I am more like a modern Jew (I am really Scottish, Irish and Native American) in the fact that I really use psychology and science to explain what is otherwise unexplainable... I realize that just like any other religion there are limitations to the explanations and that in time those explanations will change...

Keep on everyone this is fun to watch. :)

hey watch it there pal!! i don't have beliefs or faith!!! i'm just here for the debate.

well i'll be completely honest, i hope that really is the Ark up there and there really is a God because believing that there is nothing more to life after death sometimes gets a little depressing...i think religion tries to cover all that stuff up with pretty pictures of Heaven and life after death in hopes that ppl would live to answer one thing, "the meaning of life"...without that hope that there is something after death, then what is the point of life afterall?

Don't blame the concept of religion, blame mankind in muddling up everything. Religion is the creation of man inspired by the divine. Even the Bible as we know it today, has been translated, retranslated and revised countless times by countless human beings throughout its 2000+ year history.

If none of the Biblical stories prove to be true, I don't think it means that there isn't an afterlife. It may not just not be how the world's religion describe it.

Personally I am really curious if religion is just a human thing. Can you imagine, if we ever contacted other intelligent lifeforms, what kind of religion they have? Not to mention the implication that will have on all the world's relgions?

...without that hope that there is something after death, then what is the point of life afterall?

Living. it's the journey not the end.

Sorry Zoom, I was just going off of the info in your post. I guess I should've asked not assumed. :( I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me... :) And I really look hope that extraterrestrial contact happens within my life time. That would be something. And what a religious conundrum that would be. Zealots from everywhere may just be forced into a mass suicide and maybe the Heaven's Gate folks won't seem like such wackos after all. Who knows. Maybe I am really god and don't know it yet... :D

Maybe I am really god and don't know it yet... :D

During our last Divinity Club meeting I don't remember 93rdcurrent being mention anywhere....

For example, in Jewish belief there was no Satan (Hebrew letters Shin, Tau, Nun: meaning the adversary) didn't appear prior to their stint under Babylonian rule. The Babylonian religion had this relationship in early times between two of the most prominate gods. They didn't however look at the adversary as an evil figure rather as an antagonist who helped move things in a different directionl. Actually, in modern Jeudaism, there is still no Satan or underlord. That's why The Exorcist doesn't scare most Jews. Can't be scared of that which doesn't exist.;)

Osiris represented the Father (Adonai), Isis represneted the Holy Spirit (Shadai El Chai) and Horus represented the Son (Yeheshua). It is not too hard to see how this trinity was formed from Egyptian mythology. This is mis-interpreded quite often. Adonai and Shaddai El Chai are just two of the 72 different names for God. Essentially they are the same thing. Yeshua was Jesus's real name. The one given to him by his mother. In Hebrew it means 'Salvation'. Jesus is a mis-translation of the Greek word Yeysu. Most Jews do not consider Jesus to be the son of God, nor the savior. Messianic Jews, however, do believe along with Christians, that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah.

And to really delve into the mysteries of the Bible you need to be well versed in the Talmud not just the Torah. I highly recommend any would be scholars to get a better than average understanding of Hebrew, Aramaic, world religions, and history. All these things are important when considering the translations of the Bible. I have the hardest time when I am talking to someone about religion when I discover that I know more about the core of their religion than they do. I shouldn't they should learn to be a true scholar prior to interpreting the Bible. The six sadarim (sections, orders, whatever) that make up the Talmud were written by Rabbis in an attempt to help Jews better understand the rules presented in the Mishna (the written Torah). The Mishan was the written outline of the oral Torah given to Moshe (Moses). Being an outline, the Mishna did not contain an in-depth interpretation of God's laws. Fearing that this information could be lost, the major Rabbis of the day created the Talmud. The Talmud spells out laws such as keeping Kosher, prayers, the Sabbath, marriage, sex, wearing a kippah, etc. It is by no means a key to the mysteries or secrets of the Torah, more an appendix. It's boring as hell to read and difficult to follow, unless you read it by way of Rashi's commentary.

Thanks 93rd. You've made me remember parts of my schooling that I haven't though about in nearly 20 years.:confused:

T-backs, It's what's up your crack.


Living. it's the journey not the end.

T-backs, It's what's up your crack.
A leg of lamb is better than two in a bush.

A leg of lamb is better than two in a bush.

The Shocka. Two in the pink, one in the stink.

This is mis-interpreded quite often. Adonai and Shaddai El Chai are just two of the 72 different names for God. Essentially they are the same thing. Yeshua was Jesus's real name. The one given to him by his mother. In Hebrew it means 'Salvation'. Jesus is a mis-translation of the Greek word Yeysu. Most Jews do not consider Jesus to be the son of God, nor the savior. Messianic Jews, however, do believe along with Christians, that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah.

I come at this from a slightly different angle than most... I have some pretty extensive study in the non-kosher Qabalah. There are 72 different names of God and one that is not translatable or understandable. Shaddai El Chai is translated as the Essence or Spirit of god with both the masculine and femine aspects represented in the name itself. It is a lesser form of the name YHVH (Yod, Heh, Vahv, Heh) which has no vowel markers and so is not pronounceable. In the Qabalistic traditions of the Jews we have a system called Gemetria. This system takes advantage of the fact that the numerals and alphabet in Hebrew is the same. And any words that have the same numerical value also have the similar meanings. So the spelling of the names and the correct emphasis on the letters is very important. That is one of the reasons that the Torah or Mishna was so hard to translate. Some of the passages don't seem to make sense but when you start using Gemetria to help with translating it you get a very different picture.

Another thing to note is that the Tree of Life (the tree that the Archangel Michael was sent to protect with his flaming sword) in the Garden of Eden has 72 paths. There are 72 Tarot cards and that number continously pops up in the mystery traditions. I could draw many more simularities here between Egyptian mysticism and the Jeudaic oral traditions of the Moshe era... not really suprising considering where he came from.

Fluoridation, yes Mandrak fluoridation of the water supply.

Sorry to bring the thread back on topic, but here is why we're such "whimps"

Genesis 6:3

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.