Hey all.. just thought I would post this in a new thread just in case some people missed it.. Not sure if this was common knowledge or not.. but being a member of this forum I dont think it is...

I just called the shop in san diego producing this turbo system and they said it's available to the public right now but you need to tune it yourself. They have 2 kits. The one that is available does not come with a fuel management system. The other turbo kit that is expected (how many times have we heard that) to be done in the coming weeks will include fuel management for a few a higher price of course.....

He told me they were going to try and dyno the car sometime this week to get some #'s...

I'll call them back later and see how the progress is coming....


Thankx!

This kit looks complete and ready. Keep us posted davefzr :).

What kinda numbers are we expecting?

Could this be the answer to all of our questions? I don't need the speed but man would I love to have this kit installed. Everything looks good to me except for the price right now. At the beginning of 05 I should be able to spring for it and hopefully the price will have dropped some. If the numbers look good they could get a lot of business sooner rather than later.

I would also like to add that it is a nice kit. Moreover, it answers a lot of questions about turbocharging the 13B-MSP. It appears that this kit uses the stock intake manifold; the S-DAIS remains intact. I believe the exhaust manifold is another issue. From the looks of it, it would appear that the exhaust manifold would be subject to more heat abuse. Overlapping exhaust pulses may build up at the turbine end of the manifold. Hopefully, this log-style manifold won't create problematic hotspots. The stainless steel material may make up for this possible shortfall. If anyone is interested in buying this kit, in my opinion, when there is a dyno chart available, observe the average power gain, and not the peak power. Flat torque curves may also be a sign of a good turbo kit. At least it is complete, because many of us are tired of waiting :).

I hope this thread doesn't end up in the archive section hanging without answers. It's really weird how these turbo projects come in progress and then as we wait for the dyno results, we would never hear from them again. Could it be the results they are getting? Too low for the money? I hope not.

Keep us posted will ya?

Yeah I know.. I hate when threads dont get ended either.. and are just left hanging.. I definitely wont let that happen...

Just a few other notes.. It looks like they will provide a 1 year warranty with their product as well.. thats good news for anyone concnerned it's going to blow up their engine...

Oh.. and as far as numbers.. it looks like SSR who is the company distributing/promoting the product, says 275 at the wheels.. damn... that would be nice....

hey davefzr can you find out if this kit will be available for the a/t?

SSR...the same SSR who had a huge thread that is currently hanging?

Hey all.. just thought I would post this in a new thread just in case some people missed it.. Not sure if this was common knowledge or not.. but being a member of this forum I dont think it is...

I just called the shop in san diego producing this turbo system and they said it's available to the public right now but you need to tune it yourself. They have 2 kits. The one that is available does not come with a fuel management system. The other turbo kit that is expected (how many times have we heard that) to be done in the coming weeks will include fuel management for a few a higher price of course.....

He told me they were going to try and dyno the car sometime this week to get some #'s...

I'll call them back later and see how the progress is coming....


Thankx!


This is a project that Speed Force Racing and ourselves are going at together, hang tight for numbers. (It's the same kit)

Just a few other notes.. It looks like they will provide a 1 year warranty with their product as well.. thats good news for anyone concnerned it's going to blow up their engine...

....

Are you sure the warranty covers your engine?!?. Usually it just covers their parts...

SSR...the same SSR who had a huge thread that is currently hanging?

Yup.. check it out.. they responded....

and I am not sure about the warranty...

SSR...the same SSR who had a huge thread that is currently hanging?Yup, same one. And I have it on good authority that they're still having problems with the a/f control.

Somebody please figure out the a/f control.

No kidding! You know...I'm really not sure why a/f control is causing so many problems. It seems to me that people have figured out how to control it just fine with the piggy-back units. Now, the gains with stock maps have been up and down, allegedly due to variability in the stock MAF sensors, but that's fine....the turbo kits would probably be using a MAP sensor anyway I would think...do they still need to use the MAF? Hmm, well I suppose they may have to keep it in order to make the stock ECU happy, and maybe the pressurized airflow is messing with it? I don't know...I'm just worried that all the problems and delays are not caused by troubles controlling air/fuel but rather trouble with the motor handling the increased power. I don't have any real reason to say that other than skepticism about the "a/f control" answer to all the delays, so hopefully that's not the case...

jds

My guess would be along the lines of yours... the pressurized airflow is messing with the MAF. Maybe it's flowing too fast before you even hit full boost, so the car thinks it's a WOT when it's not. Dunno. I do know though that this a/f thing seems to be the problem most FI manufacturers are running into.

Yup, same one. And I have it on good authority that they're still having problems with the a/f control.

No we aren't having any more problems, we got some base runs on the dyno this afternoon, all of our testing should be finish before our schedule debut August 1st

My guess would be along the lines of yours... the pressurized airflow is messing with the MAF. Maybe it's flowing too fast before you even hit full boost, so the car thinks it's a WOT when it's not. Dunno. I do know though that this a/f thing seems to be the problem most FI manufacturers are running into.

Unless you have the MAF setup to be a draw-thru system, then the MAF will never see boost.

so what where the numbers on the base runs?? It's kinda become a, " hahahaha I have numbers and you cant see them'" game. If the kit is priced and ON THE MARKET, shouldnt the consumer get some kind of numbers.

Being that a 5 lb. boost is roughly 1/3 atmosphere, we can expect about an 80 h.p. increase over stock. Each lb. of boost is about a 16 h.p. increase.

Charles

Is that at the wheels or at the flywheel?

thanks charles R.
I was really curious. since you knew that, maybe you'll know this, how much intercooled boost do you think the rx-8 engine handle? Or is that more or an engine to engine, tuning based question?

wow how much would it be?

maybe a price quote?

RX8-Turbo system - $6250
TSI engine management system option - $1495
Ball-bearing turbo option - $600
304SS Cat deletion pipe - $399
thats whats on thier site
www.speedforceracing.com
not that bad I guess if you want the power on tap.

I know I do, even though i can beat most gts from a roll and some from a stop. there is still however the z28 and the trans amm

How durable is this kit going to be if I plan on roadracing my car every once in a while? Also how is the addition of a turbo going to affect my car's balance? If I know that these wont be a concern then I would go ahead and buy it!

Chuck

I am fairly confident that the Renesis is most likely able to handle the same levels of boost as seen in the FD. The thing is that the lighter rotors may be a limiting factor and may need to be replaced. One other thing is engine management and the systems that have yet to be made available. In other words, I think the engine, itself, can handle some serious levels of boost(minor problems such as the intake manifold aside) but we don't have the ancillary items such as EMS's or fuel controls that may be necessary to derive the full benefits of FI, yet. That's why I chose nitrous; there is much less extra-curricular hardware needed to achieve similar levels of h.p. boost(also less hardware to upset the 50/50 balance). In had a feeling that the "w.h.p." question would come up. My opinion is that the h.p. drag inherent in the RX-8's driveline doesn't change when the h.p./tq. of the engine is increased. So, the answer to the above question regarding wheel h.p. is that the 80 h.p. boost at the engine that comes from FI should be fully realized at the rear wheels, as well. Of course, this 16 h.p. per pound formula ignores such variables as intake/exhaust manifold design, intercooler efficiency, and other things that must be modified to make a turbo/s.c. system work on the RX-8. It's an over-simplified formula that is only useful for "bench racing" or guessing what the performance numbers might be with certain levels of boost. Many members who have actually dynoed their 8's are reporting r.w.h.p. numbers around 178. I use that as my basis for calculation so adding 80 h.p. would result in a r.w.h.p. figure like 258. It seems reasonable enough to me, anyway. Anyone with a different perpective?

Charles

My opinion is that the h.p. drag inherent in the RX-8's driveline doesn't change when the h.p./tq. of the engine is increased. So, the answer to the above question regarding wheel h.p. is that the 80 h.p. boost at the engine that comes from FI should be fully realized at the rear wheels, as well.

I was going to disagree with you on this point, but as I was writing my response I realized that you're right. The friction loss in the driveline is only a function of rotational speed, so any increases in flywheel horsepower should be seen at the wheels. I remember people claiming that the RX-8 has a poor driveline design because there is as much as 15% power loss from the flywheel to the rear wheels. But really, it's the absolute horsepower loss that's important. A 30 hp driveline power loss in a stock RX-8 is roughly 15% of flywheel hp (assuming 210 fwhp and 180 rwhp). If the Renesis generated 300 hp at the flywheel, the driveline loss in terms of percentage would be 10%. So it's actually invalid to evaluate a driveline based on percentage of flywheel horespower lost at the wheels.

Yeah.. all that being said.. over $10,000 installed with all the bells and whistles.. any takers?

I know I cant do it right away.... Thats just too high for me.

Yeah.. all that being said.. over $10,000 installed with all the bells and whistles.. any takers?

I know I cant do it right away.... Thats just too high for me.

That is waaaaayyyy out of my price range. I can't even think on how I can justify it to myself, nevermind my wife! $4000 to $5000 seem more in my price range. Why is the cost so high? I imagine these places are trying to earn back some development dollars, but that's a lot of $$$.

I think you'd be better off waiting for Mazda to come out with te turbo or sc RX8.
I know it's going to be a while but in the meantime if other systems come out and the prices drop then one of these systems seems feasible. I knew when I purchased the car that I was never opting to purchase a turbo system. It's just too expensive. For 8 grand I'll just by a faster car. I'm looking for a reliable ecu or retune, a cai, exhaust, and ligtweight flywheel. I figure this will give me acceptable power.
Are superchargers cheaper than turbos? If they are, that may be the way to go.

7-8k would be pushing me...but 10k? I know pissing on the last 2k seems irrelevant once you hit that level of spending, but really 7-8k would really be pushing it for me. Once I have a turbo, wheels, and all the bells and whistles...you'd be talking nearly 50k. I love my RX8, so I'll eventually get there...but I would much rather get there with a SC/Turbo that is in the 4-6k range.

But when all is said and done, I will definitely give this a look anyway. After all the flack that others have given you (including myself) SSR is really going out on a limb here, and I wish them the best of luck!

Buckeye, it seems as though we, and other cars as well, have roughly 60 h.p. lost between the fly and the wheels. I am guessing we might drop that 60 to 40 or 45 with a 9 lb. flywheel and maybe another 2 or 3 with pulleys. I can't see how people can complain about our drivelines when they come from the factory with a carbon fiber shaft. That brings up a strange dichotomy with the 8. When I look in the mags at what others do to raise the performance levels of their respective vehicles, I see that we RX-8 owners already have it from the factory. 18x8 wheels, 13" and 12" rotors front and rear, short shifter, and on and on. That doesn't leave much room for improvement, does it?

Charles

...
Are superchargers cheaper than turbos? If they are, that may be the way to go.

Nope, superchargers are not cheaper than turbos, sometimes even more expensive. However, their integration is sometimes easier and requires fewer and less expensive parts (a new exhaust maifold is not needed for a start). At low boost, with efficient s/c, you can even live without an intercooler. You will therefore find s/c kits at a lower price than turbo kits.

I think the price of these kits will definately come down a bit when more than just one company in the US is selling a turbo kit. It seems to me they are trying to get every penny they can right now knowing they are or will be the only ones that has a kit available at this time....

The best advice right now is to sit back and let the competition between turbo kits increase. $6000 is way to much for a turbo kit. This doesn't include installation :(. I wish I could say that the turbo kit is a sound one, not to mention worth the kidney, but I haven't seen any performance numbers as of yet. I am also concerned about the tuning aspect of it. From what I hear, turbo kits aren't as flexible as custom-made, though the latter is much more expensive. I wonder if these companies figured out the PCM? I will always believe there is some power to be found in the computer. There is one day going to be a point where piggy-back controllers are useless. Nevertheless, 7 psi would make this car a real competitive street machine :). If anyone here is concerned about the air sensors, check out this ongoing thread I started. Oh, and BTW, I don't think the RX-8 needs a MAP, according to the responses I received :).

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=33770&page=1&pp=15

Buckeye, it seems as though we, and other cars as well, have roughly 60 h.p. lost between the fly and the wheels. I am guessing we might drop that 60 to 40 or 45 with a 9 lb. flywheel and maybe another 2 or 3 with pulleys. I can't see how people can complain about our drivelines when they come from the factory with a carbon fiber shaft. That brings up a strange dichotomy with the 8. When I look in the mags at what others do to raise the performance levels of their respective vehicles, I see that we RX-8 owners already have it from the factory. 18x8 wheels, 13" and 12" rotors front and rear, short shifter, and on and on. That doesn't leave much room for improvement, does it?

My understanding is that lightening the flywheel and/or driveshaft does nothing to reduce friction loss in the driveline. Instead, it increases performance by allowing the powertrain and driveline to achieve higher rates of angular acceleration. The simple equation explaining this is: (Torque) = (Torsional Inertia)*(Angular Acceleration). Rearranging yields: (Angular Acceleration) = (Torque)/(Torsional Inertia). So by reducing flywheel inertia and/or driveshaft inertia, a higher rate of powertrain & driveline angular acceleration is achieved, thereby increasing overall vehicle performance.

I could see how the pulleys would have a direct impact on power loss due to friction. In terms of reducing powertrain & driveline friction loss, bearings are probably the single most important components. However, I am not very knowledgeable about any potential gains that could be made by upgrading engine, transmission, and driveline bearings. If anyone has knowledge in this area, I'd be interested in learning more.

The size of the wheels brings up an interesting point of discussion. I just read in another thread that better straight-line acceleration can be achieved with smaller, lighter wheels. I'd definitely agree with the "lighter" portion of this statement, for the same reasons as a lightened flywheel or driveshaft. However, I'd debate the "smaller" portion of the statement. For any given amount of torque at the wheels, having smaller diameter tires gives you more tractive force, since (Tractive Force) = (Torque) / (Rolling Radius). However, the car will travel less distance per revolution of the tires. Larger diamter tires give you less tractive force, however the car travels further per each tire revolution. Which is better for acceleration? This is along the same lines as the age old "horespower vs. torque" debate--torque doesn't take time into account, while power does.

However those smaller tires also require less force to turn then the normal ones, hence the engine can rev up faster.

Jeff, thanks for the specific numbers.

Buckeye, I come from less of an engineering background and more of a background in drag racing. Of course, I have some level of engineering knowledge as a necessary component of understanding why certain things work and don't. You and Shelley's Man are way ahead of me in the engineering department. The point is that I am less concerned about some specific numbers such as driveline loss and parasitic loss and more concerned about what can be done to lessen the effects of each. I don't recall using the term "friction" in previous posts, btw. As far as calculating driveline loss I wonder why some still prefer to throw percentages around rather than evaluate these losses as a specific number. I apologize for the digression but I am trying to understand how certain lines of thought are construed and developed.

Charles

Hey Buckeye
You sound a whole lot smarter than me but I 've always thought that the smalled diameter wheels affects the final drive ratio allowing quicker acceleration. There are of course limits to this but isn't that the basic principle? For some, changeing to a 17" vs an 18" is much easier than changing the diff gears to find the "zone" needed for better times in the 1/4. Oh an by the way we are talking about the 8 here. Torque is a word we don't use very often!
olddragger

.You and Shelley's Man are way ahead of me in the engineering department.

Haha. I wish :rolleyes:. Heck, I'm only a junior. Two more years and I can be a professional BS-er :D.

Charles: I understand what you're saying. The lighter flywheel will definitely increase the responsiveness of the powertrain/driveline, even though it does nothing to reduce friction losses. I just assumed you were talking about friction loss because it is the main source of driveline power loss. Regardless of terminology, I think we're on the same page. As I stated earlier, I agree with you that driveline loss should be stated in terms of horsepower at a given engine speed and gear position. The percentage method of representing loss can be misleading.

olddragger: I'm sure I'm no smarter than you. Maybe I know a few more engineering equations than you, but I'm sure you have more practical car know-how than me. You're right--using smaller tires is essentially increasing your final drive ratio (more tractive force at the wheels while sacrificing vehicle translational motion per engine revolution). What I'm questioning is how useful is this increase in final drive ratio? Maybe a small increase is useful for the RX-8 because of its relatively low torque output--but there has to be some limit at which increasing final drive ratio only hurts performance. For instance, you wouldn't want to use the final drive ratio of the RX-8 in a torque monster like the Ford GT. That would kill its straight line acceleration performance.

When viewed in an absolute sense, a lighter flywheel will not generate additional power. However, when you measure horespower by parking the car on top of some heavy rollers, and then recording how fast the car can spin the rollers up, reducing driveline intertia should result in higher power readings. Which is to say, the lighter flywheel "frees-up" torque that can then be used to spin the rollers up faster, hence the higher power readings. The actual increase may or may not be measureable, depending on the gear you use during the dyno run (lower gears will show greater improvements) and the weight of the rollers.

Also, smaller diameter wheels will absolutely increase overall performance by increasing tractive forces. Just ask a CSP'er Miata owner - going to 13" wheels really makes the car much more punchy. It is the functional equivalent of a lower final drive ratio (as already noted). Of course, you've also lowered the peak speed of each gear. So, to be completely correct, the car will accelerate better with smaller wheels at all speeds, except those where you would have been in a lower gear with the larger wheels. So, dropping the gears 5% would make the car feel faster, but dropping it by a much larger percentage would just make you shift too much and kill any advantages. Make sense?

Yep, exactly. Nice summary.

I made a post somewhere in this forum about flywheels. But, I believe GeorgeH explained it quite well. No one likes math :(. But, for those who are interested,

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=33692&highlight=flywheel

IMO, the only real numbers that matter are the track results.

You're right--using smaller tires is essentially increasing your final drive ratio (more tractive force at the wheels while sacrificing vehicle translational motion per engine revolution). What I'm questioning is how useful is this increase in final drive ratio? .


I "curb checked" my rims about a month ago and I was forced to put some 17s off my old 99' prelude on my car( the 8). I could tell a lot of difference in the straight line performance. I look at it like this since it takes less power to turn the smaller radius it helps in acceleration, but it also takes longer to hit the top speed "wall" that everyone has hit. With 18s on a closed course road ;) my speedo said 149 with the 17s it said 156-7(it went up, then down, then up, then way down again).
So im figuring that the top speed would actually be about the same since your prolly closer to the engines peak horse power and it takes more to hit the "wall" even though your not covering the same distance per revolution. Your just getting more revolutions out of the engine.

Come on August 1............
Can't wait to see some #'s......

Come on August 1............
Can't wait to see some #'s......

We had it on the dyno and something is wrong with the MAF Voltage, it's uncontrollable even with this ric shaw computer :o, it could be a number of things ranging from pipe diameter, length from the turbo, the ric shaw ecu etc.

We had it on the dyno and something is wrong with the MAF Voltage, it's uncontrollable even with this ric shaw computer :o, it could be a number of things ranging from pipe diameter, length from the turbo, the ric shaw ecu etc.

We now have revised pricing as well, this turbo kit will cost $5995, 5495 during introductory pricing

We had it on the dyno and something is wrong with the MAF Voltage, it's uncontrollable even with this ric shaw computer :o, it could be a number of things ranging from pipe diameter, length from the turbo, the ric shaw ecu etc.

There are problems even with an aftermarket ecu? That is just plain scary! I have an idea but it may just be plain stupid. If the airflow across it is messing with it, how about installing a tornado. Don't do it from the sense that you are trying to get more power out of a snakeoil product but rather from the standpoint that it will setup a different airflow turbulence pattern in the pipe through the maf. You never know.

It's maxing voltage at like 50% throttle.

Whoa! That could be bad! Have you tried another maf or is this just something that happens on all of them? I've heard that different ones have different voltage outputs due to manufacturing inconsistencies.

It's maxing voltage at like 50% throttle.

Maybe it is a current output MAF sensor. You might need to shunt the current to ground and measure it that way.

-Mr. Wigggles

It's maxing voltage at like 50% throttle.Sounds to me like you're pulling too much air over it, or pulling it too fast, and effectively overloading it. If this is the case, perhaps you should look into a totally different MAF, and build a small interpretive circuit to make the voltage output rang between 0 - 4V?

Even if you use a MAP sensor as input to the piggy-back (I have no idea if you're doing that or not) the stock ECU will still freak out without a MAF in the loop, won't it? Hmmm...I think I'm seeing why all these FI kits seem to run into a brick wall. This is logical though, isn't it? You would want to use a sensor that uses the full range of voltages across the range of expected air flow rates...suddenly you're pushing more and sure, its going to be out of range. I wonder how difficult it will be to replace the MAF and come up with workable tuning. Ugh.

jds

We now have revised pricing as well, this turbo kit will cost $5995, 5495 during introductory pricing

First, thanks for the update on the car........
Pricing is already looking better......
Second, How long do you think it will take to fix this problem?

Pricing is looking better? Yes.. it is minutely looking better....

RX8-Turbo system - $6250 $5995, 5495 = Savings of $255, $755
TSI engine management system option - $1495
Ball-bearing turbo option - $600
304SS Cat deletion pipe - $399

That brings the total cost from $8744 down to $8489, $7879. Mind you thats without tax and assuming installation will be $1000. That brings it back up to $9529 if you take advantage of the intro price....

Still kind of high for my blood thats for sure...

It's maxing voltage at like 50% throttle.

Under boost? That would be normal wouldn't it!

"area" that's all I have to say.

Some what off the subject hear but I was making a few calls and ended up talking to a Motec specialist who also specializes in rotarys. He as tested 3-4 Renisis engins on a brake dyno using the Motec 400 unit with good results. He went on to say that he was working one of the engines into a turbo set up for a race boat for a south american customer. He claims that the Motec unit works great with the Renisis and stock ECU and picks up 92% of the stock sensors and data, that's great news! He went on to say that so far the unit is providing adequate management for the turbo system. Now keep in mind that this motor has had the compression lowered and tweaked in a few other places he wasn't willing to go on about. The bad news is that the Motec unit retails for $2600-$3000 depending whare you buy it from. I was really thinking hard about doing this option and building my own turbo kit but man that's some serious coin to drop on engine management, let alone finding someone local with the experience to tune it. I also have a sneaky suspision that the other motors he was working on were for race cars of some sort. You know, those who have the cash to spend on an awsome unit like that.

"area" that's all I have to say.

Well said. You have obviously been typing too much on the axial thread.

It wasn't because I didn't want to type anymore, It is just that I wanted someone to figure out what it means.

Could you possibly port the maf, or put it in a bigger housing or something ... then switch to bigger injectors to balance out the equation? Then recalibrate it ...

Seen that work on certain mafs in the past ... dunno about these hotwire ones, but that's something that's done with older supras

I think that IS what Paul is getting at....increase the housing diameter to maintain the same velocity over the MAF, with larger actual flow. Same sensor, doesn't know it is now reading the same velocity in a larger cross-sectional AREA.

S

WELL put, that's EXACTLY what it means.

I think that IS what Paul is getting at....increase the housing diameter to maintain the same velocity over the MAF, with larger actual flow. Same sensor, doesn't know it is now reading the same velocity in a larger cross-sectional AREA.

S

Wishing you good luck for part throttle driveability!

The ONLY way to go with respect to the OEM PCM is :
- electronicaly limit the output signal from the MAFS at its max nominal (might not even be necessary unless it gets to 5V under 2000 rpm, if I believe the manual);
- and drive the extra fuelling (and spark retard if necessary) from a MAP correction on an auxiliary ECUs (using existing or extra injectors).

This way :
- you keep things std at part throttle, including smooth driveability
- you can control the boost in open or even closed loop

Changing the MAFS area and compensating by changing injectors (higher flow rate) might work but I classify this into the 'alchemistry' section!

Remember that the characteristics of the MAFS, and the injectors (high and low fuel flow slopes, breakpoint between high and low slope, offset vs. VBatt...) are engraved in the PCM.


Regarding using Motech, it's probably very good for racing but won't give you any refinement regarding driveability. Remember all these aftermarket / racing ECUs don't feature an AIR CHARGE MODEL as in the OEM ECUs. They don't evaluate (and even predict!) the cylinder air charge in transient conditions.

With the solution I gave above, any basic aftermarket ECU would give you good control provided :
- it features a boost control strategy module
- you feed it with an appropriate signal from the e-shaft for synchro
- you install a MAP sensor
Remember that the injector firing per rev is as per an I-4 engine.

I presume you are drawing through the MAF? There is the problem...


Do you think blowing through it is better?! I think not.

Yes.

Blowing through it will mean the MAF will only read air ingested by the motor, not drawn in by the turbo which will pull way more air than needed as soon as it is under part-throttle load. It will than pass that air through the BOV.

Blowing through it is the way to go. I've got quite a bit of experience with that.

The only drawback is that the MAF will be exposed to somewhat higher temps than it likes to see, but at least it will se only as much or less air than it will if it is set up to draw through.

In a road car application, the BOV should be vented to the air intake system before the compressor (but after the MAFS).
The MAFS is precisely calibrated on a flow bench, using the full production intake system upstream of the sensor as it directly affects the flow pattern across the cross section of the MAFS. By blowing through it, the flow pattern does not correspond at all with the flow to which it was calibrated. Air charge calculation will therefore be wrong, the PCM will schedule fuel according to this wrong air charge. Expect a loss in driveability and refinement.

EDIT : Re blow through : I don't say it cannot be done. But it's a job that needs to be handled properly!

Isn't the MAF sensor expecting air at baro pressure? How would it know the density?? Plus ditto for a BOV. it will fuel for air that did not go in. Then of course is the housing built for pressurization? Does it messure temp before and after the compressor? I know there should be so many dia.s before and after the MAF. It's like using air stream in lab equipment there has to be undisturbed stream before and after a sensor. Even sharp edge orfice systems require a long section on each side.

Man, I wish we had Webers.

Isn't the MAF sensor expecting air at baro pressure? How would it know the density?? Plus ditto for a BOV. it will fuel for air that did not go in. Then of course is the housing built for pressurization? Does it messure temp before and after the compressor? I know there should be so many dia.s before and after the MAF. It's like using air stream in lab equipment there has to be undisturbed stream before and after a sensor. Even sharp edge orfice systems require a long section on each side.

Man, I wish we had Webers.

Actually, you must be right, there is not provision for pressure compensation in the MAFS. Another good reason to keep it upstream of everything FI.
BOV outlet should be redirected between the MAFS and compressor.
The air temp is measured at the MAFS too.
And indeed, you need to make sure that the air flow remain more or less laminar even after the MAFS.

I was browsing through the manuals for the eManage (aka Canzoomer) and they suggest adding their pressure sensor into the loop if you exceed the capacity of the factory air flow meter or MAP sensor. The pressure sensor can then be used for the scale of each Map table.

More info (http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/)

*bump*

Any news?

How about the problems guys, have things gotten straightened out yet? I was just wondering when we could expect numbers. I know nothing about turbo's but I am interested in getting a kit for the 8. Just an update is all that we need but surely numbers must be close.

Sorry.. no new news.. they are still working everything out...

but whats up with SSR's site?

strange....

http://www.ssr-engineering.com/

Maybe they're retooling. I hope they didn't go out of business. :confused:

It works fine for me. Says "SSR-ENGINEERING NEW WEBSITE"

http://www.ssr-engineering.com/products_rx8turbo.php

anyone called yet?>

I called the other day and they said they were still putting final touches on it.. Maybe omi has some more information.. he seems to be the king of info

LOL, nope, nothing more than you just stated. Should be about 2 weeks out now.

So who is going to buy one?

Not me. :D

I'm going the custom way. Maybe I could outdo SSR and SFR. :rolleyes:

Not me. :D

I'm going the custom way. Maybe I could outdo SSR and SFR. :rolleyes:

diddo
let them do the dirty work :p and get all the quirks figured out. fabbing your own kit saves a TON of cash.

Ok Ill wait for Greddy then.

If they would sell this kit for 5k I would definately buy it.............

Anyone have updates? It looks like Speed Force Racing has adjusted their prices and options once again...

RX8-Turbo system - $6250
Ball-bearing turbo option - $600
304SS Cat deletion pipe - $399

Pricing is looking better? Yes.. it is minutely looking better....

RX8-Turbo system - $6250 $5995, 5495 = Savings of $255, $755
TSI engine management system option - $1495
Ball-bearing turbo option - $600
304SS Cat deletion pipe - $399

That brings the total cost from $8744 down to $8489, $7879. Mind you thats without tax and assuming installation will be $1000. That brings it back up to $9529 if you take advantage of the intro price....

Still kind of high for my blood thats for sure...

diddo
let them do the dirty work :p and get all the quirks figured out. fabbing your own kit saves a TON of cash.

Not really. That's the magic of a turbo kit. It has everything you need, and you don't have to buy extra stuff if you don't. I'm also going the custom method because it happens to be a side project of mine. :)

I don't see where they changed anything. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place. I don't know......

Not really. That's the magic of a turbo kit. It has everything you need, and you don't have to buy extra stuff if you don't. I'm also going the custom method because it happens to be a side project of mine. :)

ok ok good point. Im just speaking from prior experience(00' prelude). I bought all the parts separate and had my dad fab a manifold(kinda crude). But it was more like 1500 for everything rather than 3500. But I see yur point. Im kinda torn between nitrous and the turbo/ s/c route anyways.

bambam

So much for August 1st..................

So much for August 1st..................


that had to be expected. dont you remember SSR claiming to have it out way back before summer? Go check out the nitrous thread. Im goin that route till the other FIs get figured out. He clamed a 13.3 second 1/4. :D on a fifty shot. not to shabby.

bambam

i dont know if this has been posted or not, but how come there is smoke coming out of turbo on their video?

Thats what there still working out .....lol :))

i'm trying to go to sema this year, since i am a local and everything, but no way of getting in there. i'd love to see the blitz supercharger and all other companies that will unveil their stuff for our car.

I think you need a business license... I checked last year.

8in Vegas,

the smoke is a wire or wire rap that got to close to the exhaust area.

bambam

i heard that they need a business liscence, i got still some time til then, one of my friends owns a shop in san jose. maybe i should give him a call.hehe

Has it been two weeks? Apparently you can call them and have it delivered, I guess. :confused:

where did you hear this 2 weeks from?

Well, like I said before, "so much for August 1st"
But now I can say, "so much for September 1st"

Well I talked to one of the guys at Speed Force Racing shop today and he claims that they are all finished up with the turbo kit and they are using the Ric Shaw ECU, and that they scheduled dyno testing for next week. When I asked about possible expectations of Hp gains he said they are shooting for at least a 40% increase over their "stock figure of 177whp", and that they are keeping the boost between 4 and 6 psi. He also said the car is running good and they should be ready to release the kit to the public after the dyno testing and final tuning are completed. The guy that I spoke with (Ed) said that they will post everything on their website when they are done (pictures, dyno video, driving video, etc..)

I hope this thing can put some real numbers down, say like at least 270whp..

So I guess back to the waiting game. As if we haven't been waiting long enough.

PS- Here is the number I called if anyone wants to check this out. 619-328-4012

hey punishr can you check if there will there be an A/T application, or just M/T?

Yeah I will call him probably on wednesday to check on the dyno runs, and I will ask him about the A/T.

I talked to them the other day and they were on the dyno doing some runs and the battery that is in the alluminum case started to melt on the bottom, so they are relocating it to the trunk. So that is the latest news that I have on this kit, I know it sucks, but oh well back to the waiting game again!!!!!!!!!!!

A cold air intake is part of the package.We understand that it is important to get as much cold air into that turbo as possible.We located the airfilter in the front of the car so it gets as much cold air as possible.Attnetion to detail is what makes the Speed force Racing kit superior to anythng else being offered for the fourth gen RX-8.


So much for attention to detail they can't even spell the word! This is a direct quote from their page.

LOL...

I saw that too!!

fourth-gen RX-8?

So much for attention to detail they can't even spell the word! This is a direct quote from their page.

Now that is some funny stuff :)

Does not instill much confidence that the final product will be top notch when they can't get the little things right!

Hey guys, I'am looking for a Quality FI system and afew of you are worried about someones spelling.(wow)

I talked with Tim today from Speed Force and here is what he told me.

They have spent 6months on this turbo project and will have it ready for sale next month (Nov).
The ratings Tim has told me are 350hp Flywheel 300 rwhp at about 8000rpms
The ratings Torque are 300ftlb Flywheel and 250 ftlbs at the wheels, at about 4500rpms

Tim has told this will all be posted in the next few weeks. I hope this is all true

at 6500$ still?

at 6,500 thats a bargain I think.

Pettit's figures were only 50 more hp and 50 more torque at right around 5,000.. maybe a bit more with the intercooler....

This system is offering over 100 whp and almost 100 more tq......

That sounds nice to me.

EDIT

That sounds awesome to me :)

Forced induction is not cheap. I imagine my GT35R install will cost much more than SFR's turbo kit. :rolleyes:

6500 is WAY WAY WAY more feasible at the those numbers. especially if it is outta the box like that wiht a decent tune job. that means more could be epected with other minor fixer uppers. say maybe 330-340 to the wheels

bambam

The Tick, Tim quoted me $ 6250 + 1300 for Rick shaw ECU which is a piggyback system, Tim also said some might perfer to use a stand alone system to have full control.. I believe I would prefer the Rick Shaw ECU, I really dont't have alot of time to be fooling around, and would prefer someone who has taken all of the guess work out this... I rather just be driving and having a good time..

Oh yeah. The Ric Shaw computer is a top-notch device. I wouldn't mind having one if ever I turbocharged my 8. However, as you increase in power, you don't want to have a million piggybacks connected to your PCM. Personally, I might switch to stand-alone if the devices get out of hand.

Now we are talking an extra $2,300 for 50 more hp and 50 more torque then Pettit....

Some people go big.. others take it conservatively... At least we have choices..

Things are looking up I think.... I like all this talk about their systems being done next month (SPEED FORCE) and by December (PETTIT)

Hey Rotoman, did you read my last post about the battery melting on them and them having to relocate it to the trunk?

That is what Ed at SFR told me. Did Tim say that they were done with that little situation?

I believe I will probably get either this kit or Hymee's kit whenever he is done with it. I think that Hymee's S/C kit will put up some pretty good numbers as well.

Hymee just started his kit though.. It will be some time before that is available yeah?

It's all a waiting game for right now.... I wonder who is going to be first to market...

Davefzr, Hey davefzr are the HP and Torque figures your talking about over the stock figures ,not Speed force Racing figures I quoted right..

I wonder the same. It is good to see some kits getting this close to completion though.

As for Hymee, I think his kit might be worth the wait........and who knows maybe by then SFR's kit will have come down in price a little. Although if those numbers are right then I believe it is still a half ass decent price.

Punishr, Yes Tim said fix that problem and was just working on getting a better idle

Cool, They said that that happened while they were on the dyno.

I can't wait till this kit is complete and becomes available, I have been keeping up with it since they first started.

Me to, but I really like Hymee's project to. I just hope he can speed this process up, I know it takes time but it's getting very close now and boy am I anxious..

Davefzr, Hey davefzr are the HP and Torque figures your talking about over the stock figures ,not Speed force Racing figures I quoted right..

Yup...

PETTIT:
+50whp
+50tq

SPEED FORCE
+100whp
+95tq

Awesome...

So is the SF system going to be a kit that we can install on our own or will we need a professional?

davefzr,
100 hp and 95 lb of torque gain? really?

Hey guys, I'am looking for a Quality FI system and afew of you are worried about someones spelling.(wow)

I talked with Tim today from Speed Force and here is what he told me.

They have spent 6months on this turbo project and will have it ready for sale next month (Nov).
The ratings Tim has told me are 350hp Flywheel 300 rwhp at about 8000rpms
The ratings Torque are 300ftlb Flywheel and 250 ftlbs at the wheels, at about 4500rpms

Tim has told this will all be posted in the next few weeks. I hope this is all true

Yeah.. just quoting Rotoman......

assuming 200whp and 155tq base run...

It's probably more like 180whp base run since thats what most have gotten after a dyno.. but I gave it the benefit of the doubt...

if those numbers are true thats pretty awsome.

300rwhp.. finally .. the day has come.. hahahaha... no more"need for speed" yelling

I think I would be happy with 50 hp and 50 torque right at 4,000 rpm.... Thats where pettit said it kicked in..

With 300whp I bet you'll need to do some major upgrades to support all that power...

I went to a 1/4 mile dragway over at CA Speedway just a few weekends ago and saw 3 people in one day break a transmission.. axle.. or diff on the line.. it was ugly.. 300whp seems like a big freaking jump from 180 or even 200 for that matter....

Espeacilly for those of us who plan to visit the track regularly.. either 1/4 or road racing.. and push it....

but anyway.. time for bed :)

I think I would be happy with 50 hp and 50 torque right at 4,000 rpm.... Thats where pettit said it kicked in..

With 300whp I bet you'll need to do some major upgrades to support all that power...

I went to a 1/4 mile dragway over at CA Speedway just a few weekends ago and saw 3 people in one day break a transmission.. axle.. or diff on the line.. it was ugly.. 300whp seems like a big freaking jump from 180 or even 200 for that matter....

Espeacilly for those of us who plan to visit the track regularly.. either 1/4 or road racing.. and push it....

but anyway.. time for bed :)

I agree, I might look into the pettit, do you guys have a link?

I'm thinking less strain will also just improve the overall engine lifespan?

finally, we have reached 300 territory

haha ya, i can't wait for these kits to come out. they both sound pretty good to me.

Man... I bet with a port you would be looking at 325-350 territory..... yum yum gonna hafta get me sum.

Slavearm

I agree, I might look into the pettit, do you guys have a link?

I'm thinking less strain will also just improve the overall engine lifespan?
:confused: I worry about lifespan too.. cuz my 8 is for daily drive. so.. lifespan is very important to me. I won't hope got a 300rwhp in a day. and 0 rwhp in otherday(engine dead) :p

There is special maintenance that comes with forced induction, such as more frequent oil changes. I believe an turbocharged RX-8 can stand the test of time, as long as it's well taken care of. If you're going to beat the living crap out of your car, then it won't last long. I don't understand the concept of straining an engine? Don't engines desire more working fluid? ;)

well, the speedforce kit will be putting more pressure on the engine right?

heck, I don't know which one I'd go with....extra oil changes is ok with me, I don't tihnk I drive my car like a granny, but, I don't think i'm being super hard on it.

if any of you guys live in the LA area and you get your 8 tc/ or sc I'd gladly pay well over 100bucks to drive one in a parking lot or something.

Hell yeah.. I am with you Jared.... There is probably a market for that somewhere haha....

There is special maintenance that comes with forced induction, such as more frequent oil changes. I believe an turbocharged RX-8 can stand the test of time, as long as it's well taken care of. If you're going to beat the living crap out of your car, then it won't last long. I don't understand the concept of straining an engine? Don't engines desire more working fluid? ;)

what do you mean by beat the crap outta it? ...I've never seen how other people drive their 8's, so...I' donno if I beat it or not. :)

how can you project that the renisis will stand the test of time? isn't it a new engine, and these are new turbochargers?

I just want a t.c. that's reliable, and performs great, I don't want something that sounds like a chopper either, I don't mind extra noise, but not so much I can't hear myself speaking. ...maybe i'm asking for too much.

is there a link to the 50h tc?

There are allot of unknowns when you go forced induction on a new system, like the Renesis. We'll find out over the next 12 months how much power it can make for a given tuning system (more powerful programmable ECUs generally make it safer to make big power). Assuming the engine is tuned well, it won't blow up, so then it's just a question of how long it lasts before loosing compression. There has been much discussion on this topic recently elswhere on this forum. Time will tell.

Something you do have control over is how hard you are on the drivetrain. If you go forced induction, and then routinely do agressive launches, hard power shifts, 2nd and 3rd gear scratches, etc, something in the drivetrain is bound to let go much sooner than you want. Again, we won't know until more people start running F/I, but even on a highly boosted car a bit of "mechanical empathy" will help preserve the life of the car.

George

To me it doesn't matter if the car has FI or not, if you routinely do agressive launches, hard power shifts, 2nd and 3rd gear scratches, etc, something in the drivetrain will let go much sooner than you want it to as well.

So I believe that if some of you are that worried about reliability then this is the wrong type of mod for you.

I myself, am concerned with reliability, but I also take very good care of my cars. I will do FI on my 8, and will love the benefits of having it, and if something happens to the car then I will get it fixed, and enjoy the benefits again. If the engine blows up, then I will replace it, if the drive train goes out, then I will replace it. I am going into this wanting more power for a reason, to be able to drive the car faster, on the track and off, so to be worried about reliability will only slow me down. Yes, I would love to have a FI car that can be driven as hard as you want and as nice as you want and it still last for very long periods of time(200000+miles), but we all know that is probably not going to happen. All mechanical parts break down at some point thier life, and if FI helps them to break down faster then that is just another part of the modification process that will allow me to purchase new and better mechanical parts that will last a little longer.

I don't mind throwing some extra money into things if it breaks down etc, I just don't wanna buy a kit that puts too much strain on certain parts and blows up my engine in 50kmiles.

an extra 120hp at the wheels is quite a boost, and very impressive, although, as current reliability for the renisis is at question even in stock (simply because it's so new) I don't see how it's reliability can be projected after a large mod like the kit from SFR.

just my 2 cents, although I'm totally gonna buy it. :)

Well, these kits are designed so your engine won't blow up. It takes a lot of research and development for turbo kits to come out. They have to work, they have to be legal (most of the time), they have to be able to increase power where the owner desires, and they require a long shelf life.

Like I said, if you drive hard all the time, then your engine is going to have the likelihood of failure sooner. I think these kits were designed for everyday use, and ease of installation, compared to a custom setup.

I'm going to repeat myself in saying you need to take care of your car, whether it's boosted or not. If you don't, then your car will die sooner.

I dream of a turbo setup, but something I know I designed myself, built myself, and controlled myself. :)

I totally agree with Shellys, you need to take care of your car. I also agree with the fact that most companies will make products that work well and are at least somewhat reliable, especially companies with repuatations. If they made a product that caused all sorts of problems, and people started complaining, the company wouldn't be in business for very long, now would they? Though this kit is definitely tempting, I've really got my eyes on Richard's and Hymee's projects, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see a successful turbocharger with respectable gains.

yeah what made me trust SFR more was that they already had plenty of kits made for other cars.

My belief is that a turbo kit is only as reliable as its user.

because companies NEVER produce bad products. :)

whats the Ball-bearing turbo option? and is it worth the extra 600?

BB turbos last alot longer.

As for the Renesis, I would love to see someone rip the motor out and cut in a half bridge, 3mm seals, ported coolant passages, and maybe new IMs. Bigger throttle body, nice fuel pump with a return line, a standalone computer, 1600cc injectors, ign. amp, a front mount, and a ball bearing T-78.

Zoom Zoom, I'll keep dreaming.

If I had all that I guess I would have to sell the FD. ;)

You're talking my language 93SilverFD. Lucky for us, the RENESIS has the largest ports of any previous Mazda rotary engine, IIRC. Probably a street port would do fine. I would like to see a bridge port however. Why a T78? I personally love the GT35R, 1.06 A/R. Either way, it's big flow. :D

I talked with a rep at SFR and asked for some numbers for the turbo system, and this is what he told me. The turbo kit gives 8 a whopping bhp of 360, with 300 to the rear wheels, and 300 ft-lbs of torque @ the flywheel, with 250 to the rear wheels.

DId they say that they had DYNO'D or those are IDEAL or ESTIMATED gains?

i wish those r the numbers

they said that those are the dyno'd #, and that they should be posting all that information to their web site in a week or so. oh and if your wondering that is with a 7 pound boost.

I have always loved the name "T78"

Its always funny when some kid with his eclipse asks what im running, T78 usually inspires a good size grin. Its funny knowing it would take the exhaust from two of those 4-bangers to get these blades moving. ;)

6250$ for a turbo kit aint that a lil pricey i may be wrong but jesus

For a fully tunable package? Not in the slightest.

Look in to a real turbo kit for any car. It's going to cost you big bucks. This includes the fuel, spark, and FI upgrades. Show me any kit under 6k that gives you all that? Hell, hop over to gothamracing.com and price everything you would need for a single turbo kit on a third gen, including an ign. amp, power FC, good Front Mount Intercooler, extreme fuel upgrade kit, and a turbo kit. If you come out under 7k let me know how.

does 7lbs boost for 120 whp on top of the normal 180 whp sound fishy to anyone?

In a perfect world, you'd exactly double your power for every 14.7 psi of boost that you add. In a perfect world, 7 psi added to a car that makes 180 hp would add up to 265 hp. Now take into account losses through the system from exhaust restriction, added intake heat, etc. Do the math on that one! I'll believe 250 rwhp from an originally 180 rwhp car. If the car made 190, just add 10 more or so to the final number.

Rotarygod, I appreciate you bringing everyone back to the basics to explain, in a simple way, how boost pressure correlates to power.

But I've been thinking about it and feel like it's not atmospheric pressure that one needs to double (if they wanted to double power), rather it's the pressure (before or after combustion) in the combustion chamber.

Granted you could double the power if the atmosphere double its pressure and you remained naturally aspirated. But we're talking about forced induction and "boost" pressure. Boost pressure is measured (at least in my experience) as the pressure above atmospheric of the intake manifold.

Since the volumetric efficiency of the engine is not 100% in its naturally aspirated state, the pressure you need to double is the MAP pressure. Say the volumetric efficiency is 75%. So the MAP pressure during the intake "sweep" (stroke), (and the pressure of the intake charge would be similar), would be about 11psi.

So to double that pressure (and the power, roughly) you need 22psi. Since boost pressure is just a measure of MAP-14.7, you only need 7.5 lbs of "boost". What some people don't realize is to get an intake pressure of 1atm or 14.7psi you need some sort of forced induction. So even if you have a slight 'vacuum' (say 13 psi) your turbo or supercharger is still the thing that's getting you there.

I think we're saying similar things. The distinction is where we measure the 'boost' and how 'boost' is defined. Let me know what you think of my logic.

If I'm reading you right, and assuming that the boost of 7.5 lbs is accompanied by increased volumetric efficiency, then 7lbs of marketed boost can be worth a lot more than half of NA power?

On a separate note, 7lbs boost/120whp for the SFR kit doesnt sound quite so unreasonable anymore... because its not just the boost, its the reworked fuel system. If by tuning optimally they manage to find a lot of the emissions and cat-protecting HP that was lost at port, that is.

The forced induction is what increases the effective volumetric efficiency. But VE is really not what I think I want to be talking about - intake pressure is really the issue. The reason I mentioned VE was to find the theoretical intake pressure of the NA car. It may even be an incorrect usage - I'm not 100% sure.

In any event, The idea is that your power should go up by about the same percetage as intake pressure (assuming you add the correct amount of fuel to complement the new O2 available). At wide-open-throttle intake pressure is not 14.7psi (unless you have some sort of forced induction or fancy intake system). Therefore the pressure you need (to double the power) is twice whatever your NA pressure is. I don't own an 8 (yet - closing on a house first) but get a boost guage, hook it up to a vacuum line, accelerate at WOT and have a passenger (safety, safety) record intake pressure at different RPMs. It will probably read as 'vacuum'. But this is 'vacuum' below ATM. So your absolute pressure is what is the interesting number. If you pull 1 psi 'vacuum' then your MAP is 13.6 psia and you need 27.2 psia (psi absolute) to double power - which is equal to 12.5 psig (psi guage). - this is a different example than I used before-

120whp gain is a lot. Even if they do all the proper A/F management. I know Canzoomer and others have had success with this approach - with gains of around 15% - up to 200whp. They still want a 50% increase above that, and given the example above that would equal 13.6psi x 1.5 - 14.7psi = 5.7 psi boost. Therefore, theoretically, they'll have 300whp and then some. But this is based on a 1psi vacuum at WOT and peak hp RPM. I'm not sure what those numbers are. And of course such a cursory thoeritical analysis like the one RG and I are talking about excludes other factors that will decrease performance.

I wouldn't get my hopes up on any one person's FI theoretical claims on the system they're developing. I am confident that someone will figure it out sooner than later (I believe a couple credible systems are in the works) and will be able to give us all a dyno sheet. 'til that happens all we can do is talk.

When a boost gauge is reading 0 psi, it is actually already at 14.7 psi. This again assumes that it is a perfect day. This vaires a little bit. At sea level everyone is already getting 1 atmosphere of air pressure exerted on them. This is how much the air in the atmosphere above us weighs. The higher you go, the less this number is. If 14.7 psi is 1 atmosphere, then an additional 14.7 psi is twice as much. There is no exponential equation to it in order to increase power. It stays linear. Twice the pressure is twice the air. Again this also assumes that the airflow in cfm is constant. Instead of our gauges reading 14.7 psi all the time, we zero them out and start from there.

If we were running 22 psi, we may or may not double the engine power. We absolutely have to know the flow in cfm. Remember that the turbocharger compresses the air inside of it. Our boost gauge may read a certain psi but this doesn't mean that there is necessarily twice the air there. 14.7 psi is what is needed to theoretically double the horsepower level but this assumes that the turbo is sized properly and flows enough. A turbo that is too small may not have enough flow in cfm to double the engine's capability unless it hits 22 psi. It is really all about how much air the engine itself takes in more than it is about what psi it is at. If the engine takes in twice the air, it can make twice the power. When I do boost pressure conversions, they aren't meant to be taken as absolute. They are really just rough estimates of what should happen if everything was designed properly. In no way are they intended for someone to make claims off of them. Only a dyno can do that.

Do I feel like doing a lot of typing right now??
Nah, maybe some other time.

I'm going to go with rotarygod in saying that volumetric flow rate is a key parameter. I'm trying to find a link between flow rates and turbocharger sizing. I not only have to look at compressor and turbine maps, but I'm stuck trying to find overall dimensions of the compressor inlet, outlet, and turbine inlet and outlet diameters. I also like to observe the cross sectional area of the toroidal shape a turbocharger makes, or I could just look at the manufacturer's A/R ratio. :D

I believe volumetric flow rate is depedent on the area, from the equation

v[dot]=(AV)

where v[dot] is the volumetric flow rate, dv/dt, A is the cross-sectional area and V is the velocity.

Also, we can use the volumetric flow rate as part of my favorite, and heavily abused Ideal Gas Law to find mass flow rate, for which shaft power is dependent on. However, isn't inlet pressure just as important for determining how much power we can get from the system? Mass flow rates are dependent on pressure, so it would be important to keep in mind as well. Systems, work producing and consuming, can vary in input/output based on ambient pressure and temperature.

There is more to this when it comes to the design of turbocharger systems. I just wanted to flex my thermodynamic muscle once more for old times sake. :)

Do I feel like doing a lot of typing right now??
Nah, maybe some other time.

I'm sure it can get really technical but most people won't understand that. Explaining things in simple terms makes accuracy difficult to convey sometimes.

Jesus guys, don't make me break out my physics books.

The higher I get in my courses, the more complicated posts I'll put. ;)

Then, when you graduate, you'll get some experiece and your posts will get simpler again. :p

lol

Lets see if I can complicate this anymore. I think what you all are trying to do is come up with a definite number increase in hp according to a specific increase in the manifold absolute pressure (MAP). This is physically impossible. If you could pump a pure gaseous oxygen containing mixture (how’s that for a oxymoron) in to the combustion chamber and completely react it with the fuel, I could give you the volumetric outcome and pressure resulting there of, of the products given the exact volume within which the reaction was contained. I could then extrapolate the work being done as a result of exerted force. You could then estimate with excellent accuracy, the percent change in applied force, at the flywheel of course. It doesn't work like that though. Your "air" is pumped in at an un-constant temperature, fuel is horridly inconsistent, and NOx's are always going to be produced in the combustion chamber as a result of the heat and spark. You can’t accurately predict the amount of energy lost due to heat absorption, nor predict that it is in some way linear. I do agree though, that you can give a pretty good estimate knowing the type of power produced per/pound of pressure increase (std. temp and pressure, one atm @ 25C if I remember correctly) in an engine of similar size, compression, and flow symmetry. Exact figures however, are impossible to determine. It is my experience though, that certain snails produce more power at a given boost pressure than others. This can be attributed to engine rpm, compressor efficency, charge temp, and probably a million other factors.

I will tell you this though, I cant see an RX8 with 7.5 psig pushing 300 at the wheels. Maybe the compression will be the wild card, but I don't see a difference of 1 compression point making that big of a difference (as opposed to the pre FD 9:1s).

I guess we will all have to wait and see. My bet though, is that the numbers are grossly overstated.

I would also like to reiterate what RG already touched on. Its all based on CFM, you can have all the pressure in the world built up in your manifold, if its not efficiently making it in to the combustion chamber, than it means nothing. Looking at the intake ports on the Renny though, I’m not sure this is going to be a problem. I'm not sure about the IM though, that would require "Scientific Analysis". ;)

That's pretty good silver. You guys don't want to hear this but the rotary is not an efficent thing. In fact it is about 30% less then a piston engine. You can tell this from the MPG.
A good piston engine gets about 10 HP per Lbs of air per min. The rotary will give you 7. Don't be offended, there has been almost no development done on the rotary when compared to the piston engine. Think about it ONE little company has done this.

Given all that I'll tell you once more it's the DENSITY ratio not the PRESSURE ratio that you need. To keep me from having to type it all again you can find all the formula in the first 5 pages of my thread "axial flow supercharger".

This is in there someplace but here it is again. Attached.

I think that’s what I was getting at but I got ahead of my fingers somewhere in there. Density is mass per unit of volume (mass/vol.) Since mass is affected by temperature there is no way to predict charge density and the resulting molar amounts of product without having experimental output and temperature results for the specific turbo. Even assuming you knew the exact composition of all reactants involved.

Sure would be nice to have a Density gauge. ;)

Air gets too dense, boost controller responds by reducing psi, in order to keep the the number of moles of oxygen from growing beyond what your car and fuel system is tuned for. Some day..

A density sensitive boost controller. Now theres an idea. If charge temps were colder than normal (IE, cold day) it would reduce boost to compensate for the denser air saving your vehicle from the dreaded, cold morning boost spike.

Try some of this:

So much for attention to detail they can't even spell the word! This is a direct quote from their page.

------------

When you purchase the RX-8 turbo system you can be assured you are getting the best turo system on the market.We are so confident about this that we offer a full one year warranty on all parts included in the kit.

------------

I'm sure feeling great about getting the best TURO system on the market. whew, i was worried there.

.02$

Richard, may I hold on to your engine analysis document? It's really interesting, especially when your simple algebraic equations put my thermodynamic relations to shame. ;)

I'm happy to have somone read it.

I'm happy to not be the only one on here who types in correct English. Rx7 club is getting to the point where you need a translator.

Haha, I have yet to visit that forum but from what I'm hearing, maybe it's better that way? Anyway, Richard that document is actually pretty easy ro read and understand, puts Shelleys posts to shame :p . Thanks once again for helping a poor freshman who can't understand much of the physics that are talked about on this forum.

Density!!! That was the word I couldn't think of! That's funny because I just watched "Back to the Future" and in one scene in 1955, George goes up to Lorraine and says "I am your density" rather than "destiny". That word has been stuck in my head all day. Just not in this context.

Thanks once again for helping a poor freshman who can't understand much of the physics that are talked about on this forum.

Haha. I tend to make up my own math from time to time. ;)

Hey guys, I'am looking for a Quality FI system and afew of you are worried about someones spelling.(wow)
I talked with Tim today from Speed Force and here is what he told me.
They have spent 6months on this turbo project and will have it ready for sale next month (Nov).
The ratings Tim has told me are 350hp Flywheel 300 rwhp at about 8000rpms
The ratings Torque are 300ftlb Flywheel and 250 ftlbs at the wheels, at about 4500rpms
Tim has told this will all be posted in the next few weeks. I hope this is all true


Update Guys,
Just talked with Tim from SFR. Tim said timing of release is still Nov.
They are just finishing the treaking of the Rick Shaw ECU. They will be posting Pics and dyno's very soon.. HP numbers still as I reported ..

One thing came up Guys, Tim has said the weak link just might be the Plastic intake, Tim said that the plastic actually expands as the boost increases and
contracts as boost decreases..

I bet we are going to need a New intake to take care of this, for those who really want to have FI system.. That's my two-cents.. ;)

not the first time we have heard about the upper intake manifold balloning. curious.....

not the first time we have heard about the upper intake manifold balloning. curious.....
1) I can't see how this is actually possible (it is made out of some stiff sh*t)
2) I don't see how it is an actual problem (how much volume could the expansion possibly represent?)
3) I can see how this is easily solved (glassing)

Please elaborate.

1) I can't see how this is actually possible (it is made out of some stiff sh*t)
2) I don't see how it is an actual problem (how much volume could the expansion possibly represent?)
3) I can see how this is easily solved (glassing)

Please elaborate.

cant elaborate sorry jeff. that's why i said curious. i dont remember the FI company that mentioned it. maybe it was these same people. someoen before (ajax?) wondered about bbracing it somehow and RG had a reply about that- basically as suggested above just make a new more sturdy one.but the mention of it here brings up in my mind the same questions that you just posted. along with-

1. why does it ballon and not break?
2. does the whole thing balloon or just one area?
3. why does it balloon at all? pressure? heat?
4. did the aussies note this while building the turbo one? what did they do about it?

and several others

i dont remember the FI company that mentioned it.

SSR Engineering....who developed the kit along with SFR.

Hi, I just talked to Cam from Pettit about this expanding intake under boost and Cam has said he has notice this too. That's why he's coming out with a new intake for his SC kit by beginning of the year.. Well guys it does look like there will have to be a New intake if we really want to boost our 8's and have it be reliable..

1) I can't see how this is actually possible (it is made out of some stiff sh*t)
2) I don't see how it is an actual problem (how much volume could the expansion possibly represent?)
3) I can see how this is easily solved (glassing)

Please elaborate.
by stiff sh*t, what kind of plastic specifically is it made out of? Also, would the proximity to the engine engine heat explain this? what kind of temperatures are we talking about at the intake?

Also, what is glassing?

I think he is referring to fiber-glassing the intake to prevent leakage and expansion. I don't see how you could be getting much expansion though, the plastic is extremely hard, and at most you would only be seeing IM pressures of 8 - 10 psi. I fail to see how that intake could not hold 7 psig. Maybe the plastic is to hard, making it crack under even slight expansionary conditions. After seeing plenty of boost make its way through the top of an LS1 though, I have gained a little more faith in plastics.

I knowthat most of you following this thread wont care but I called speedforce and askedthem whether or not the turbo kit wasalso being developed for the automatic Rx8and they told me it was exclusively for the manual Rx8. Bummer forus auto owners.

Nah we care :) More info is always good info...

$5200 turbo setup + $1300 for the Rick Shaw ECU/Fuel management unit is OK (+ I would drop the extra $600 for the ball bearing turbo, but I already have the hi-flow cat unit from SR Motorsports so I would not get the cat-delete pipe). Anymore than that and I don't think I would get it. I am pretty close to Santee too (I believe it is near San Diego), I would see if they would want to do the install and play around with another RX8 I have friends in SD I would spend a week down there. Oh well, let's see what they come up with.

I saw that idling video a while back, so um, repost? Nah I'm kidding. I did see the video, and I've been quite perplexed as to why the engine started smoking by the end. Cooking oil? Oh well. :rolleyes:

I think SFR and SSR use a T4 turbine, but I'm not sure. I think you can get away with such a setup, at the expense of your warranty. Like I've said before, turbo systems will last as long as the owner wants it to, meaning the car needs to be properly maintained.

Lately, since reading about Autorotor twin-screws from Kenne Bell's webpage, I've been affixated on such a compressor. However, none is really better than the other. It all depends on the user. Personally, I'm still gunning for a GT35R turbine, and that's where it stands. :)

Waaaaaay back then it was stated that the smoke was coming from a wire loom that was too close to heat and started to melt. Something to that effect.

Hey Rotoman.. or anyone for that matter.. do you have any updates on this project or Pettit's? The last update we got was just over a week ago and the November completion date is fast approaching...

thankx...

Oh... the only update I have is that SFR will be happy to show you their turbo kit if your in the area... Maybe someone local to San Diego will take a road trip. :) Please dont forget your camera..

Any announced completion dates are purely just guesses so don't hold them to fact. The only way you'll know for sure when that day is will be when it gets here.

I dont understand why they even give completion dates now. They should just hold them to themselves... SFR has already given out at least 3 and missed them all.. They look like amatuers to me. I am sure they are not... but whatever.. It just doesnt look good.

Hey davefzr, and others. Today I have talked with Tim from SFR, Yes the numbers are still correct that I have posted earlier and the timing of release is still Nov. Tim said the kits will take approx. 4-5 weeks to ship. Also the Rick Shaw ECU will lag behind just afew weeks longer. The dyno info should be posted shortly, Tim said.. I can't wait to see for my own eyes.

Also i have talked to Tyler from Pettit, Still talking about the first of the year, when I asked if possible sooner he said maybe around Xmas... I really like the system too, But I don't like the fact that it runs at 6psi and when the auxliary intake ports open at 6250 rpm's the Boost drops to 4psi... And the 8psi kit it will drop to 5 psi. Tyler did say that they had to make a New intake out of aluminum for pressure and better mounting reasons. But I like that it makes power across the band, just wish it did'nt have this problem with boost at the 6250 rpm.. I will probably buy the SFR once I see the Dyno results..

I don't like the fact that it runs at 6psi and when the auxliary intake ports open at 6250 rpm's the Boost drops to 4psi... And the 8psi kit it will drop to 5 psi. Tyler did say that they had to make a New intake out of aluminum for pressure and better mounting reasons. But I like that it makes power across the band, just wish it did'nt have this problem with boost at the 6250 rpm.. I will probably buy the SFR once I see the Dyno results..

Dumb question....why can't they keep boost up when the auxiliary ports open?

Someone told me that you cannot put a turbo in a rx-8 because its rotary, would it have to be a different way of putting in the turbo ,will the turbo not be as effective as it would be in other sport car engines or is this person just a dumbass???.i wanna get an rx-8 because i love the look and feel of it i got from the test drive but i also need it to make cash so i need to know if there is any real set backs the rx-8 might have??(be honest)Also i was thinking of gettin a 350z but its at a steep 33k if i get the rx-8 at 25k would the 8k that i saved be able to up the rx-8 enough to woop the 350z(i'm thinking yes if used the right way ,just want fast verification).Also the veilside kit for the rx-8 looks frickon nice.

the person is a dumbass and how would you make cash with the car? your name suggests it would be in drag race style street races. if so, imho, you need to look at a different car.

Dumb question....why can't they keep boost up when the auxiliary ports open?
Not sure if it's the right answer, but i'm thinking maybe their SC isnt sized properly for the application and it's dropping boost because the car is sucking more air than the supercharger can produce at high RPMs with the aux ports open.

...this person just a dumbass???..

Dumbass Extreme

Abel Ibarra’s run's a 1,500 hp 3-rotor RX-8 with the biggest turbo that I have ever seen :D

Hey ajax, You might be right. But I'am wondering if the way the auxilary ports kickin at this rpm, if there is'nt going to be this drop in pressure from any SC or Turbo until it can catch up.I really want to see all the Dyno graphs from Pettit and SFR to see if there is this drop or lag, kind of a miss step...

Dumbass Extreme

Abel Ibarra’s run's a 1,500 hp 3-rotor RX-8 with the biggest turbo that I have ever seen :D


that thing could suck my head in :eek: :D

No, there will not be a pressure drop with a turbo when the aux. ports open (I'm planning on just bridging them all together anyways). An ever so slight closing of the wastegate, via the boost controller, will offset the opening of these ports. A properly sized turbo on an Rx8 should be capable of providing far more boost than most street applications will ever need. Therefore, you will have no problem keeping the pressure right where you want it. 10 psig from 2800 rpm's, all the way to redline, sounds good to me.

Someone told me that you cannot put a turbo in a rx-8 because its rotary, would it have to be a different way of putting in the turbo ,will the turbo not be as effective as it would be in other sport car engines or is this person just a dumbass???.i wanna get an rx-8 because i love the look and feel of it i got from the test drive but i also need it to make cash so i need to know if there is any real set backs the rx-8 might have??(be honest)Also i was thinking of gettin a 350z but its at a steep 33k if i get the rx-8 at 25k would the 8k that i saved be able to up the rx-8 enough to woop the 350z(i'm thinking yes if used the right way ,just want fast verification).Also the veilside kit for the rx-8 looks frickon nice.



I don't know who told you that you can't put a turbo on a rotary engine but apparently they (and you) have been in a hole of the last 15 years. Rotary and Turbo have been synonymous since the late 80's. Rotaries have amazing exhaust gas velocities making them perfect for the application of a turbo charger. Rotaries are far less efficient than piston engines; the majority of this lost efficiency goes right out the tail pipe in the form of heat and moving gas. A turbo charger greatly increases the efficiency of the motor wile increasing power along the way. My highly modified single turbo third gen runs 11's and still gets better gas mileage than a stock Rx8. Go put that in your ass and smoke it.

As for "wooping" a fairlady, how old are you? Are you even old enough to drive? I guess the answer to you question is no, you would not be able to "woop" a 350z. It sounds to me like you would need a step by step to change your oil, modifying and maintaining a FI Rx8 might be beyond the scope of your mechanical ability ;) , and in stock form, an RX8 is no match for 350 at a stop light.

Yikes...

This wasnt the kind of update I was looking for from them.... :eek:

RX8-Turbo system - $6250
Ball-bearing turbo option - $600
304SS Cat deletion pipe - $399
TSI engine management option - $1349

Yikes...

This wasnt the kind of update I was looking for from them.... :eek:

RX8-Turbo system - $6250
Ball-bearing turbo option - $600
304SS Cat deletion pipe - $399
TSI engine management option - $1349 So now it's 9000 w/o install.
Sad.

Well you dont have to spend the extra 1000 for the ballbearing and the cat..

For the turbo illiterate(me), could someone explain the effect of the ball bearing option? I know I've read about ball-bearing turbos before, but never really knew exactly what that meant. Thanks.

Ball bearing turbos spin easier. It reduces spool up time (turbo lag). This lets you build boost faster. The faster you build boost, the faster you accelerate. It also helps keep the turbo spooled between shifts.

Ball bearing turbos spin easier. It reduces spool up time (turbo lag). This lets you build boost faster. The faster you build boost, the faster you accelerate. It also helps keep the turbo spooled between shifts.

Since a centrifugal supercharger is pretty much a belt driven turbo, is it possible to have a ball bearing centrifugal supercharger? or am I misunderstanding the setups here?

I think you are a little confused. I'm sure they have ball bearings in them but their speed is firectly proportionate to the engine speed. A turbo's speed isn't. It is spun from air. The easier you can make it spin, the more leverage the air has on it. A smoother turning supercharger would translate into less power loss through the belt system but it wouldn't affect lag. You'd still build boost at the same rate.

I think you are a little confused. I'm sure they have ball bearings in them but their speed is firectly proportionate to the engine speed. A turbo's speed isn't. It is spun from air. The easier you can make it spin, the more leverage the air has on it. A smoother turning supercharger would translate into less power loss through the belt system but it wouldn't affect lag. You'd still build boost at the same rate.
Yea, I'm not exactly an informed person when it comes to FI. Thanks for the info rotarygod.

Yeah, the notion that this kit is going to be $8K before install is rough. I was hoping maybe an introductory price of $5200 for the turbo, $600 for the ball bearing turbo upgrade, and $1200 for the Ric Shaw ECU upgrade. That is still $7K but way better than the $8K or $9K we are looking at right now. I might have to wait for the Greddy kit, or look at a Petit Racing or Blitz SC.

Yeah, the notion that this kit is going to be $8K before install is rough. I was hoping maybe an introductory price of $5200 for the turbo, $600 for the ball bearing turbo upgrade, and $1200 for the Ric Shaw ECU upgrade. That is still $7K but way better than the $8K or $9K we are looking at right now. I might have to wait for the Greddy kit, or look at a Petit Racing or Blitz SC.
I've seen you around the forum a lot, have you looked at Hymee's or Richard Paul's projects? To me those 2 look the most promising. Both superchargers, but you said you might be looking at blitz so I figured I'd throw them in there. Be patient and you will see good results, in my opinion don't be the guinea pig. Wait and see what other people say about each system, then make your decision. The SSR or SFR or whatever it actually is might be worth the 8k, who knows?

Aoshi,

I would definitely like to check out Hymee's unit, as well as the Axial Flow unit. In regards to SFR's unit, it really looks nice, but at some point no matter how good the kit is, they become financially unfeasible to me. $8K-$9K is just too much, even if it gives me 120 whp. I was really looking for a $5K kit, or maybe a bit more if it can get me more than 50 whp, but once you get to $8K+ it just prices me out of the market. Everybody has different levels that they are willing to go to get hp, mine is about $7K. I'll check out Richard Paul's unit. Thanks.

I'll second that one. I agree, you pay to play, but if the system costs that much without the engine computer than I think they have priced themselves out of the market. I have no doubt that it is an expensive kit to produce but simple economics are not on their side. I think a package price of anything above 6k would slide them so far up the demand curve that they would be nearing the y-axis (not a good thing). That pricing is too bad, I really like the construction. It will undoubtedly be well beyond the equilibrium price once other suppliers get on the market with their kits though; Trust knows Americans aren't willing to shell over that kind of dough.

Economies of scale suck when you’re the little guy.

Man that is one great looking kit. I can't wait till someone here gets their hands on one. I really wish they would let one of us test it at a discount. I can always dream can't I.:) Oh well looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

-Boxcar

And I as well, looking forward to solid and respectable FI kits to empty savings for...lol,please don't tell the wife

Maybe all this hard work on the 8's turbo bankrupt them :) jk....

Their site is down... Anyone have any updates on this? Maybe they are updating their site to post all of the information we could possibly want about their turbo kit for the 8...

Sure :)

dave...wishful thinking!! Ohh I hope you are right!!

Davefzr, I checked also and SFR site is down, I hope this means that they are updating their site for the RX-8 Turbo...This is about the time Tim has told me it would be out. I would like to follow-up with a phone call to see if this is true but I won't be home till tomorrow, Does anyone have their Phone number so I can call Today..

Still down.. I wonder whats up...

Davefzr, I don't know. I can't find their number.. Please anyone with Tim's number from SFR let me know so I can call to find out....

I think this is them... Found them on Yahoo Yellow Pages...

Speed Force Racing
(619) 328-4012 10149 Prospect Ave
Santee, CA Map 13.1

Flash, Update, just got off the phone with Tim from SFR...
1. Their system crashed should be up and running by tomorrow.
2. The Turbo system will be posted on the web by beginning of next week, with dyno and video of the RX-8... sounds good.
3. System is ready to buy right now, with about a four week wait, numbers still the same as I posted earlier- 300hp. at wheels & 250 lbs. torque at wheels.
4. Be careful about lite weight flywheels can produce a slight turbo lag compared to the heavier flywheel, I will probably buy the mazdaspeed flywheel like cortc, it has the right weight in the right places.
5. I believe they will work with you on pricing, depending on what you buy. Tim's seems like a straight forward guy. I believe I'am sold on this one, just waiting for the Dyno's and I'am BUYING

Thankx for the update.

well 2 days later and website still down!

No.. it's up... just not in a state that should be presented to the public.. haha

http://www.speedforceracing.com

Flash, Update, just got off the phone with Tim from SFR...
1. Their system crashed should be up and running by tomorrow.
2. The Turbo system will be posted on the web by beginning of next week, with dyno and video of the RX-8... sounds good.
3. System is ready to buy right now, with about a four week wait, numbers still the same as I posted earlier- 300hp. at wheels & 250 lbs. torque at wheels.
4. Be careful about lite weight flywheels can produce a slight turbo lag compared to the heavier flywheel, I will probably buy the mazdaspeed flywheel like cortc, it has the right weight in the right places.
5. I believe they will work with you on pricing, depending on what you buy. Tim's seems like a straight forward guy. I believe I'am sold on this one, just waiting for the Dyno's and I'am BUYING

can't wait to see it!

Bump

9000 wow thats just to much!!! i was looking to spend around 5000 complete without installation.

Dang man this kit looks and sounds very promising. I was almost sold on trying out one of the blitz supercharger kits that I was going to ship in from england, but now I'm kinda wanting to see what happens with this kit. The description for this kit says that it makes 275whp @5psi. " The RX-8 Turbo Kit is projected to produce an estimated 275WHP @ 5 PSI!" Some of the other kits were running safe at 8 psi I thought. I wonder what kind of gains we could see at 8 psi from this kit?

Jamie

Same here spyder, looking forward to hard numbers from kit....I love dynos and external wastegates.... : )

Well.. they have a site now just no content.. :) They are making progress... I feel a dyno coming soon.

Bump...

Bump...

All of the info on this upcoming turbo system will be able to be found first hand in our new vendor section

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=45834

Very cool... welcome aboard formally, SSR! :D

Very cool... welcome aboard formally, SSR! :D

Thank you Omicron