I've owned 4 American car's, 2 used and 2 new and wasn't thrilled with any of them. I think it is embarassing that the United States could put a man on the moon but we still can't engineer and build a quality automobile for a decent price. GM in particular hot glues some really Sh!tty vehicles together. The H2, as a single example, is a $50,000 suburban with a really poor paint job and pontiac Aztek interior. Don't go flaming me with a bunch of "my ford had 200,000 mile" stories either. I'm talking about quality that is evident in craftsmanship, fit and finish, material selection, control feel, ride quality etc. etc. I can sit in any brand new american car and find loose parts, obvious mold parting lines, misaligned dash pieces, truly crummy "parts bin" switchgear, piss poor texture matching of plastics, uneven exterior panel gaps etc. in a matter of seconds. My girlfriend's VW Jetta bases at around 14,000 and it is amazing how much it would embarass ANY (I mean ANY!) american car in those categories at the same price point. Rediculous. I'd love to keep my money here in the US economy but dang, I feel like I'm buying a brand new rental car. We should be over in germany and Japan taking notes. Those folks take pride in what they build because they see it for what it is, a representation of their country's standards and capabilities. Imagine the humiliation of trying to "show off" a ford focus to the people that engineered the Jetta, or a Chevy malibu to a Honda Accord engineer.

They can, they just stopped in 1973 with the advent of the EPA

I always look to the C5 (not the C5.5) as an example to this. They build one of the best handling, power to weight ratio cars for the money, and then stick the Cavalier's dash and stereo in it. And the only response you ever get out of Corvette owners is: Well I didn't buy it for the interior... Sure you didn't, but come on, spend a grand to make the interior not look like an econo box's.

The only owned one other non American-built automobile and that was a Dodge Colt. It was an import built for Dodge, of course. I owned Mopar vehicles right up to buying the RX-8 and was satisfied for what they were. I am speaking of, however, the cars and trucks that I personally drove daily. My ex-wife's family were more so Chevy and Ponitac owners and I never saw such crap in my life, always breaking down always had something wrong with them. My wife got a Mistsubishi Eclipse and that was the beginning of our buying a non-American built auto. (yeah I know, the Mitsubishi Eclipse is built not more than 60 miles from where I live but they have a different attitude about building a car that Detroit does) We were pleased with the quality of it but, the resale value was preposterous when she traded it for a Honda CRV EX. I bought the RX8 because I was impressed by it's looks, knew about the RX-7, loved te thought of owning a Rotary, was delighted with it's quality in workmanship and I have been pleased all along. It has had it's recalls but none too many. IF Mopar had a decently priced impressive sporty car, I probably would have stuck with them, but by the time I was having an itch to sell my Dakota, the Stealth and Avenger were no longer being manufactured, the Stratus, was the only one left of the 3 clones Cirrus and Breeze and there was nothing left but the over-priced Crossfire which is stylish looking but was just a bit beyond my budget. So, now that I own a Mazda prduct, I may never go back to Mopar no matter how nice the Magnum loooks. :D As far as a Ford goes, the only Ford I would trust is a Ford truck. I owned one and it was just OK. Mechanically, it was sound. I don't really think it's a question of why can't Americans build a decent car as much as it's why does GM build such crap for the most part.

newtlicious is right i have a 99 cougar with 27k miles on it at 15k water used to leak inside the passenger door and short out the speaker. And at 20k miles my window used to make this grinding sound when I would raise it up and down. the motor for the window used to make this clang cland!!!! sound whenever I drove over a bump. my sunroof used to make a grinding sound, i had a defective fuel filter plus theres this piece on the dash that keeps popping out when i drive over any little bump....I would see the stupid thing just go POPPP!!!!. Now i got this letter from FORD talking about " We found that some 1999 and 2002 cougars are experiencing symptoms of engine hesitation, loss of power, surging please go to your dealer and have the fuel pump replace at no charge. This letter confirms what my friends have been telling me I have a piece of sh***t FORD

The Cougars are known badly built cars. Too bad they look rather nicely. We almost bought a 2002 but went with an Eclipse at that time, glad we did.

I had a Civic with 140,000 miles, and a Mustang with 130,000 miles. The Civic still didn't have a single squeak inside, while the Mustang had the center console break to bits, the whole dash groans, and the doors are sagging.

I don't know if this is indicative of either car, but that is my experience.

there is a reason toyota (i have never owned one) is number one in quality. the japanese are known for taking existing processes and improving the quality. it is partly due to the fact that they are an island and have limited resources. take for example timex/seiko or any other japanese watch manufacturer. they target the 'best' in the industry, at the time (get it? at the 'time' haha :) ), swiss manufacturers, purchase or license patents and then improve on the quality. their fractional increase ends up being a great improvement on an already 'perfect' item.

the same goes for automobiles. each year, the japanese strive to improve quality. where an american company can improve 2% from lets say an 87%, a similiar japanese company is improving quality .2% from a 94%. that .2% is ends up being greater then the 2% that the american company improved. Japanese auto manufactures have adopted quality standards initially as they had to compete against the american 'big 3' that dominated the world market. remember the datsun, the first entry into the us? it was a joke. american car manufactures would never have guessed they would lose market share to a JAPANESE company. which is why japanese companies bet on quality initially. they had more to lose.

oh i wish i knew this before i bought the stupid thing. And my engine is still hesitating on 3rd and 4th gear with the new fuel pump. i gotta do some research on lemon laws.

I've got 60k on my '98 Ford Expi (AKA The Boat-Puller) and I'm hard pressed to find a legitimate complaint. Except, of course, that the compass says S when I'm going N.

i owned a lightning only had a few problems.. but i didint care it was fast.. i think ford has built a awesome SVT line i wouldnt buy any car from them that was not a SVT just My opinion

Originally posted by newtlicious
I've owned 4 American car's, 2 used and 2 new and wasn't thrilled with any of them. I think it is embarassing that the United States could put a man on the moon but we still can't engineer and build a quality automobile for a decent price. GM in particular hot glues some really Sh!tty vehicles together. The H2, as a single example, is a $50,000 suburban with a really poor paint job and pontiac Aztek interior. Don't go flaming me with a bunch of "my ford had 200,000 mile" stories either. I'm talking about quality that is evident in craftsmanship, fit and finish, material selection, control feel, ride quality etc. etc. I can sit in any brand new american car and find loose parts, obvious mold parting lines, misaligned dash pieces, truly crummy "parts bin" switchgear, piss poor texture matching of plastics, uneven exterior panel gaps etc. in a matter of seconds. My girlfriend's VW Jetta bases at around 14,000 and it is amazing how much it would embarass ANY (I mean ANY!) american car in those categories at the same price point. Rediculous. I'd love to keep my money here in the US economy but dang, I feel like I'm buying a brand new rental car. We should be over in germany and Japan taking notes. Those folks take pride in what they build because they see it for what it is, a representation of their country's standards and capabilities. Imagine the humiliation of trying to "show off" a ford focus to the people that engineered the Jetta, or a Chevy malibu to a Honda Accord engineer.

Ah it is so nice that you single out GM as crap and VW as quality. Have you taken a look at the latest JD Power VDS? You know the one. The one where VW is basically the most unreliable mass market vehicles known, excepting for Korea. Whereas GM, as a whole, was above average and only trailed Toyota for the number of leaders by category.

Don't you wish that you would have used Ford and Mercedes Benz as examples? Oh wait, I see Ford also kicked Mercedes' butt.

It sure is a good thing that those German cars cost so much more than the American cars. Otherwise their owners would have nothing to brag about.

Of course, I suppose these scientific studies are much less accurate than your astute eye for quality and reliability or your anecdotal evidence based on ownership of four cars.

One good reason.. it's called the UAW..

Where else can you get paid 90k a year for sleeping on the job?!

** I will probably get flamed for saying it but I don't care.. I also work for one of the Big 3..

That is a xenocentric thing to say. American cars usually get a bad rap for being ugly, slow, heavy etc. Wow I just described my ex. J/K. Anyways, the Big Three doesn't expect everyone to like their cars. I'll admit, the only American car I like is the Corvette. I say, if you can design a better car, then you've proven me wrong. Give these guys a chance. I'm not to fond of the UAW either, and maybe they're lazy and have no work ethic. I don't know that. But remember, these cars are being built by people like you and I. If you don't like them, don't buy.

I guess if you want to compare the work being put into their cars versus the world, sorry guys, the U.S. would be near the bottom. Now who's being xenocentric?

Several years ago I went on a 3 hour road trip with 3 other people to pick up my friends Land Rover from the dealer. We were given a Chevrolet Cavalier for a few days in the meantime for mode of transportation. We had to drive 3 hours to a different city, where the dealer was because that was the only dealer in the province. By the time we arrived, none of us could get out of the car. Our back was in so much pain we couldn't move! Enough said.

The seats (front or back) in Sunfires and Caveliers are wafer thin and provide no support. Compare that to any other compacts from Toyota and Honda and you will realize that power isn't everything if you can't enjoy the ride to begin with.


I know a person that is a hardcore Firebird fan and he purchased the last one that Pontiac made... I think it was an aniversary edition with all the options like special black rims and bright yellow paint job. Let me tell you, the thing looks like a beast on the outside. It looks very good on the outside, but once you look inside, you would have no clue as to how much that person spent. It costed in the $60'000 CDN range and the interior looks like the car only costed 1/3 of that. Here, is where the american car guy comes in and argue the Firebird isn't about luxury or attention to interior. It is about speed and power. Yes, I agree. But so does the Honda S2000 (at 50-55 grand price range) . You can see that you spent that amount of money when you get in. With the Firebird, you can't unless you put the pedal to the metal.

After owning a series of GM pieces of $hi+ in the 80's I swore I'd never drive another American car. I moved to Mazdas and Volvos and never looked back... and have put over 100,000 trouble-free miles on each and every one except the two newest ('00 Miata and the 8).

BUT... I'm being seduced by a few of the new American models hitting the scene... particularly the Dodge Magnum (a station wagon with a Hemi!) and the Cadillac CTS-V. I've driven the Magnum and was extremely impressed. Maybe, just maybe, Detroit is getting its head out of its a$$ and is seeing the light.

Maybe.

Originally posted by Aratinga
After owning a series of GM pieces of $hi+ in the 80's I swore I'd never drive another American car. I moved to Mazdas and Volvos and never looked back... and have put over 100,000 trouble-free miles on each and every one except the two newest ('00 Miata and the 8).

BUT... I'm being seduced by a few of the new American models hitting the scene... particularly the Dodge Magnum (a station wagon with a Hemi!) and the Cadillac CTS-V. I've driven the Magnum and was extremely impressed. Maybe, just maybe, Detroit is getting its head out of its a$$ and is seeing the light.

Maybe.

Dodge Magnum? Well it's got 340hp in the Hemi but it's also more than 4000 lbs. Also, I don't think you can get the Hemi in the AWD version.
Go for a 250hp Legacy GT wagon that weighs 3400 lbs, get a better interior, standard AWD, and proven reliability.
http://www.subaru.com/servlet/showroom?model=LEGACY&trim=25_GT_WAGON&command=overview

9-K Rever recently got a Legacy GT Sedan, I'm sure he'll say good things about it.

American cars suck. We had a Ford Tempo once... got rid of it after a year because of so many problems. We currently have a Ford Explorer and that thing is nothing to brag about. We've had repeated problems with the driver's side door lock and the rear window wiper. I hate driving the car it has bad handling and it's really uncomfortable. Somehow Ford took a 4.0L V6 and only got 205hp out of it. Subaru got 212 out of their earlier 3.0L H6 and has 250hp coming from the new 3.0L H6. My 2001 Outback has a better interior than any of my friends American cars. Not to mention my 4 banger puts out 165hp, whereas Ford had a 130hp 4 cylinder in the Focus, and they had to get the SVT team on it just to get it up to 170hp. Why people still buy American cars is something I will never know.

Remind me to apply for that Subaru salesman job next summer.

I think the problem is that American car manufacturers DON'T listen to their customers. They are trying to tell the customer what they want instead of the other way around.

US car manufacturers are cleaning up their act slowly but they still have a long way to go. they are terrible in the craftsmanship part of it....it just feels so cheap. Biggest dissappointment was me getting in a Z06 - beautiful car but for god sake, seeing some cheap ass AC Delco stereo sys in it just broke my heart..... my god it looks like it was made by Tonka. When will they learn that its also the little things that make a difference as well.

How come American's can't build a decent car?.....

.....Viper?

While quality may have been dramitically improved according to "industry studies" for American cars (maybe the rest of the industry is sliding down) I can't get over the fact that every time I drive one or ride in one for that matter, it appears cheap. I had a brand new Taurus the other day and I was wondering if these designers had any taste. The week after that I had a Chevy Trailblazer as a rental and I was thinking the same thing, the materials appeared to be better but it still felt cheap. Don't get me wrong, my previous Protege has some really cheap aspects, like the mirrors in the sunvisor but the overall design of Asian and European cars seems so much better.

Originally posted by DOMINION
How come American's can't build a decent car?.....

.....Viper?

oh yeah sure... Dodge's 6 figure sports car... with that kind of price tag it carries it better be on point. While I've never seen or interacted with the interior of a Viper I wouldn't be surprised if they messed that up too taking into account what i saw in a $85k Z06.

Its alot of little things with US cars that add up and turn people off. the killer is these problems are easily solved....but they just don't see it.

Down with the US cars!... Oh wait... Go US economy!

American cars are unreliable but so are other European cars such as Fiat (luckly we don't have them in the US) and more recently VW.

A couple of years ago I attended a conference with Sergio Pininfarina, arguably the most renowned car designer in the last 40 years. When questioned about US automakers, he simply trashed them saying they build cars that in three years are and look old not only because of bad quality but also because designs/trims change so often. Most dramatically Pininfarina said this at the alma mater of Alfred P. Sloan who build General Motors to be the largest auto manufacturer.

I really don’t see myself buying an American car but I’ve also ruled out Nissan as I have had a terrible experience with two cars. I’ll stick with some Europeans and some Japanese.

my 4x4 Ford Van has been one of the best cars i have owned.. also my rx7 .. but you have to get the right car.

not all the imports are worth the asphalt they sit on ..

I want to weigh in on the side of the american auto worker!

No, wait, let me explain.- I have driven the biggest pieces of CR@P ever to leave Detroit, but I feel the blame is being misplaced.

If a part can be bolted together in the wrong position, it WILL be, that is inevitable. When body panels don't align, when dashes look like crap, that has nothing to do with the guy that bolted it in, that is DESIGN and ENGINEERING.

Look at my examples, the Aztek and the Element: they are in a run-off for the 'Miss Congeniality' award, to say the least. Neither has 'Viper' looks on it's side. Can you 'guestimate' the quality of each example? I have to guess, due to never having touched the door handle of either one....

I know that the design in each case is.....shall we say eclectic, but the build quality is a forgone conclusion - I expect that the Pontiac P.O.S. will have gaps, orange peel paint, and screw heads showing. (and if you HAVE to design a headliner with exposed screws, make sure there is a screw in each hole!) The paint job will last 18 months, then 'revert' to that wonderful grey primer color, so popular with the american car buyer!

My prejudices are showing, but my point remains - that these 'cars' are both probably bolted together in Tenessee, and the quality was won or lost LONG before the UAW worker ever saw the pieces. They were DESIGNED to be what they are. The engineers and designers could fix every problem 'in vitro', before the cars had ever had Mr. J.D. Powers facts rammed down their throats.

But NO.......
.
.
.
doc

EDIT, Damn Doctorr, you posted that while I was typing almost the exact same thing!

I'm so glad to hear other folks out there who share my opinion. When I started this thread, I half expected to get flamed to death for being un-patriotic. If anyone here thinks that is the case, just look at my profile and see what I do for a living. I always thought I was just ranting all the time about crappy american cars.

I agree somewhat with the statement about the UAW being part of the problem but those folks are just putting the poorly engineered parts together. The problem, IMHO, lies in the wages. The big three have to pay these unions so damn much money that there is little left over to spend on thoughtful engineering and quality materials.

I was stationed in Shreveport, LA for 5 years. There was GM plant there producing the new Colorado pickup line. Several of my bosses at the Base had kids/relatives that worked at the plant. These folks were making like $16.50 an hour to bolt the hoods on. Less than 1 year on the Job and making $16.50 an hour to put 4 bolts at a time into a car. One kid was making $19 an hour to drive a forklift. Gimme a break, $19 an hour for unskilled labor? Honda, Toyota and Nissan all build cars here in the states so the problem isn't the workers. I suspect that high production costs drive engineering shortcuts.

I found the firebird comments especially funny. My friend bought an SLP firehawk, talk about a $35,000 piece of junk. It was a year old, none of the exterior panels lined up, the dash was delaminating and the T-tops leaked on your head in the rain. Fast or not, that's just unacceptable in ANY $35,000 car.

Originally posted by Detroit RX8
One good reason.. it's called the UAW..

Where else can you get paid 90k a year for sleeping on the job?!

** I will probably get flamed for saying it but I don't care.. I also work for one of the Big 3..

No flame from me.

Americans will never build a better car because all they really care about is clocking in and clocking out! Its all about keeping the job, screw what it is you're doing just make sure you get that paycheck! Screw the workmanship whene all the employer cares about is how many cars you got finished and not how good you got them assembled!

"Quality is Job one" yeah right!

"like a rock" and it handles like one!

The workplace mentality in Japan are very good compared to over here. In Japan, companies focus on motivating employees and such. In return, the workers feel they are someone important and that is what the difference is. They have a passion and a drive to do better and make a better product in the end.

Originally posted by Prod
Dodge Magnum? Well it's got 340hp in the Hemi but it's also more than 4000 lbs. Also, I don't think you can get the Hemi in the AWD version.


not true- hemi is available w/awd.

Originally posted by TODreamer
seeing some cheap ass AC Delco stereo sys in it just broke my heart.....

why shouldn't they put in a cheap stereo? everyone is ripping them out anyways. hell mazda went and put a Bose in the 8 and still alot of people complain. subaru tried to appease the stereo-files by not putting any system in the STi since most fans were clamoring for a "stereo delete" option. what happened? people bitched because "a car that costs this much ought to come with a stereo". it's a no win situation with the stereo philes nowadays.

Some great posts here!

I agree totally with Babylou and fluque about VW's...not only are they very unreliable, but try and buy parts to fix them!! I had a daily driver VW Jetta...wow, I was shocked at the amount of things that were failing on this car. I spent about $2K total to fix all the crap within a 6 month timeframe and it was still a piece of junk when I finally unloaded it on some poor lady who desperately needed a car. (felt bad about it... but had to rid myself of that money pit)

Yes, American autos have suffered in the past 15-20 years. I think they're making small strides to get our business and build better vehicles. For example, besides my 8, I have a GMC Envoy...when I was shopping for vehicles it came down to the Envoy and 4 Runner. (Durango, Explorer, Pathfinder weren't even close, imo) I ended up choosing the Envoy because....

1. The Envoy had a much better ride/look/comfort features as well as more HP for towing, etc.
2. Toyota's smug attitude and unwillingness to work a decent deal and price!
3. Oh, did I mention 0% for 5 years?!? (Now, tell me that doesn't pursuade a lot of Americans to buy!)

I do expect in time I may have problems with it...but my conception is "most" (use very loosely) vehicles will hold up if you take care of them... have had it over a year and still loving it! (I know, it's still early!) ;-)

The best car I've ever owned was a 1978 Caprice Classic--had 200K miles on it when I sold it and the only thing I ever replaced was the water pump. (4-bolt main, w/ a 350....IMO, one of the most reliable V-8's ever made) Sure there may be some disagreements with that statement! ;-) Hell, I could carry 8 people easily in that boat!! ;-P

Originally posted by zoom44
not true- hemi is available w/awd.


AWD isn't available with any of them yet.

SInce Audi is owned by VW, as you guys said VW is so unreliable, so will audi?????

Originally posted by IkeWRX
AWD isn't available with any of them yet.

oops correction the awd for the magnum should be available by september according to dodge- it is NOT available yet. thanks IKE.

unfortunatley we had a audi a6 99 00 but after 50miles it had tons of probs buit it was nevewr engine probs just the blinkers would break and the cup holder kept breaking other wise impecable Unfortunatley thats not what i hear any more due to vw unreliablity also we had a cabrio sister totaled it it was ok since it was only a year old but he VW jetta so bad in qualtiy also my sister sux at driving so she beat the shit out of it

I'll tell you what that Magnum looks really nice.

The Volkswagon comments about reliability and costs to repair are accurate. I would never have one. I'm also not partial to the BMWs and Mercedes only becaue they seem to attract trendy customers as much as the big honking SUVs do the same. Wouldn't have either.

Volkswagen/Audi? Don't get me started!

They make even English cars look good!

People are so blinded by their advertising, they miss the facts - the Beetle was the biggest piece of CR@P ever foisted on buyers!

Have you EVER, and I do mean EVER - met a VW Beetle that had it's original factory engine? No, they crap out real quick. Try and find one - ain't no such animal. Again the facts - the Beetle is the ONLY car that ever had engines available in the Sears Roebuck catalog! Talk about a 'high traffic' item! Check it out, you could buy them right from the book, many of them are on their third or fourth motor, "Oh, but they run for ever!" Only if you consider the engines to be a disposable wear item!

Then the fools go for the 'Porsche' upgrade, yea..... right! Just because it is the same size pistons, don't make it no Porsche.

I owned an Audi 100 (my age is showing!) and my dad had a 5000 that he tried, in vain, to keep running. I single handedly put an Audi mechanics' kids thru college, and I DARE anyone to rebut that the 5000 wasn't the biggest crapfest ever sold.......it would EAT water pumps, and which clown designed it so the rad has to come out to fix one? Those engineers in Nekarsulm have one wicked sense of humor!

Oh, but they are so much better now......well, yes, but that bar was set VERY low.

Exit rant mode.....Samuel Adams time....

S

Is everyone forgetting about the Honda Accord? They are built in America by Americans and they are virtually bullet proof and as reliable as you are going to get.

Maybe this (http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003050) pertains to this discussion.

Originally posted by Gigolo Jason
Is everyone forgetting about the Honda Accord? They are built in America by Americans and they are virtually bullet proof and as reliable as you are going to get.

True But... all the componnts are designed in japan and that is why they are more reliable.

Oh and about the VW's. I had a '02 Passat W8 that I eventually had lemonlawed due not so much for the problems but for the inept service VW technicians provided.

It had to go in the shop 14 times, had 30 job orders against it and was out of service 60 days in the 12-13 months of frustrating ownership.

Granted it had a few problems but the inept techs had to take 5-7 times to get it fixed. from Jan to Jul 2003 I was taking that POS in EVERY WEEK!. And it wasn't for new problems it was to "put this part in" and "okay lets replace this part" syndrome!

Oh and my '01 Audi A4 1.8t quattro was unloaded (traded in for the W8) because the same service techs could not after 7 tries get my interior lights to work.

Two times is a charm!

No more VW products for me!

Originally posted by Rotary Nut
Americans will never build a better car because all they really care about is clocking in and clocking out! Its all about keeping the job, screw what it is you're doing just make sure you get that paycheck! Screw the workmanship whene all the employer cares about is how many cars you got finished and not how good you got them assembled!

"Quality is Job one" yeah right!

"like a rock" and it handles like one!

You are correct.

Originally posted by HiTMaNN
i owned a lightning only had a few problems.. but i didint care it was fast.. i think ford has built a awesome SVT line i wouldnt buy any car from them that was not a SVT just My opinion

I have to agree with HiTMaNN on this on. I too was a Lightning owner. SVT is the only way to go with Ford. But if you look at the big three all they really seem to put money in is there truck lines.

I have never understood why American car models seem to have the same problems for years and years and no one fixes them. There is inadequate response on the part of the company to solve known problems. There is a lack of concern for the customer at high levels of management within the companies.

I think American businesses in general have the next quarter earnings in mind rather than long term growth and so they bang out an inferior product to make a quick buck.

Originally posted by StealthTL
Volkswagen/Audi? Don't get me started!
...Have you EVER, and I do mean EVER - met a VW Beetle that had it's original factory engine? No, they crap out real quick. Try and find one - ain't no such animal. Again the facts - the Beetle is the ONLY car that ever had engines available in the Sears Roebuck catalog! Talk about a 'high traffic' item! Check it out, you could buy them right from the book, many of them are on their third or fourth motor, "Oh, but they run for ever!" Only if you consider the engines to be a disposable wear item! I once owned a beatle. It started out as a used 1970 Beatle. When I was finished with it, in 1975 or so, it still had it's original engine, transmission and interior...that was all that was left of it that was intact. I replaced the pan (chassis) it totally rusted on the passenger side, the front end due to rust causing the front axel to bend when I applied the brakes too hard one day, the entire body due to the heating ducts being rusted out which ran along side the rocker panels visa vi no heat, all the major engine components which were the carburator, distributor, coil and even the voltage regulator. Near when I got rid of it, the Secretary of State had to put a new title and VIN plate on it that read Homemade Vehicle. LOL

Originally posted by Gigolo Jason
Is everyone forgetting about the Honda Accord? They are built in America by Americans and they are virtually bullet proof and as reliable as you are going to get.

I agree. Toyota an Nissan build cars here too and they generally don't have problems either. Any bozo can put this screw into that thingy. If the parts all suck then so will the machine no matter who puts it together.

I'm shocked to hear the negative VW press. I am always leary, however, about one magazine having some kind of "proof" about a subject. Data can be interpereted soooo many ways. Just look at any Michael Moore film. You never know where JD power's interests lie. If I saw it in Consumer Reports, I'd be more willing to believe it.

The closest I ever got to buying an American car was the joint venture such as the MX-6/Probe project with Ford and Mazda in Flint Michigan. That MX-6 was a great car. 100,000 miles with no major problems.
Many of the posts so far have talked about poor quality of the American cars. How about their fatal design flaws? I have personally seen 2 people die in a Ford Mustang and another die in an Explorer roll over.
I can sum up American cars in 2 sentences:
If you're lucky, you'll get a lemon that will empty your wallet with repair bills.
If you're unlucky, the vehicle will kill you.

I have just noticed something about GM vehicles... The windshield wipers fail on almost all models. This doesn't just apply to my community or region. I've seen this when I was in Toronto and other places now for over 4 years. You would imagine that the company would even try to fix it, considering you are screwed if it rained...but nope. I pity the drivers driving around town with their wipers completely upright on the windshield. It screams to other people "Hey look! I am driving a POS!" :D

The thing about an "American" made car is that the lines are skewed between what is an "American" made car and what it not.

There are lots of "American" made cars that are very reliable and well build. Everyone here is not giving them credit because the companies that own the facilities have foreign names on the front. Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and BMW all have production facilities in the US that are staffed by Americans, managed by Americans, supplied by other American companies, and have made in America stamped inside the door.

There are "American" car companies (i.e. Ford, GM) who own production facilities outside of the US to make and ship cars and trucks into the US for sale. The two above mentioned "American" car companies also own "foreign" subsidiaries that produce "foreign" cars (i.e. Jaguar, Subaru, Saab, Aston Martin, and Mazda) in other countries to be sold in the US.

There is no longer a clear cut line between foreign and domestic car manufactures. The car industry has become global and production reflects that.

Originally posted by txdad58
The closest I ever got to buying an American car was the joint venture such as the MX-6/Probe project with Ford and Mazda in Flint Michigan. That MX-6 was a great car. 100,000 miles with no major problems.
Many of the posts so far have talked about poor quality of the American cars. How about their fatal design flaws? I have personally seen 2 people die in a Ford Mustang and another die in an Explorer roll over.
I can sum up American cars in 2 sentences:
If you're lucky, you'll get a lemon that will empty your wallet with repair bills.
If you're unlucky, the vehicle will kill you.

I hate to break the news to you but Mazda answers directly to its parent company Ford.

There are many companies manufacturing cars over here in North America, but most, if not all of the their parts are produced in Japan. Yes, they are built by Americans and Canadians, but the design is still from Japan and that is the most important factor in the equation.

I am into R/C and all of my radios are from Japan. They are manufactured in China or Taiwan but you can still see and feel it is designed in Japan in order to keep costs down.

Originally posted by Gigolo Jason
I hate to break the news to you but Mazda answers directly to its parent company Ford.

That's why I received an "S" plan discount on my 8. My employer is a partner with Ford and we qualify for the discount.
I think Ford is smart enough to keep their paws away from Mazda's engineers and let them do what they do best. Ford may actually learn something.

Originally posted by newtlicious
I'm shocked to hear the negative VW press. I am always leary, however, about one magazine having some kind of "proof" about a subject. Data can be interpereted soooo many ways. Just look at any Michael Moore film. You never know where JD power's interests lie. If I saw it in Consumer Reports, I'd be more willing to believe it.

Open your eyes but more importantly open your mind. Shock about VW? Calling JD Power a "magazine" and their scientific survey as "some kind of proof"? Why don't you do a bit of research?

Originally posted by newtlicious
I agree. Toyota an Nissan build cars here too and they generally don't have problems either. Any bozo can put this screw into that thingy. If the parts all suck then so will the machine no matter who puts it together.

I'm shocked to hear the negative VW press. I am always leary, however, about one magazine having some kind of "proof" about a subject. Data can be interpereted soooo many ways. Just look at any Michael Moore film. You never know where JD power's interests lie. If I saw it in Consumer Reports, I'd be more willing to believe it.

Here is one of largest recalls in history... VW/Audi recalled over 800,000 vehicles world wide for failed coil packs. It affected every gasoline engine in the line up except for the VW 2.8 V6. Every W8, 3.0 V6, 2.0 and 1.8 turbo fours, were affected from 2000 to 2003. This was due to a problem with the company (subcontractor) that was providing the defective units. I had three replaced in my W8 alone!

And Silvercloud quoted:

"I have never understood why American car models seem to have the same problems for years and years and no one fixes them. There is inadequate response on the part of the company to solve known problems. There is a lack of concern for the customer at high levels of management within the companies."

The issue here is that most cars (within the same company) use the same parts. I'll use GM as an example. Almost all GMs share the same parts. What happens is that GM will buy a shit load of stereos lets say from a subcontractor in a single block. This block is enough to cover all cars for a period of 2-3 years.

The company builds these radios and sends them to GM and over the course of 2-3 years GM installs these radios. They will continue to use the stock until it runs out then will order another block of radios to be produced. Even if all those radios have a 30% failure rate due to a problem, chances are GM will just throw in another one (from the same block) and gamble that that one will not fail. It is not until the next block is produced that any changes will be made.

Only when it involves a safety issue will a part be redesigned and issued.

Chalk another one up to the bean counters.

How about we all visit this JD Power study (http://www.jdpa.com/pdf/2004055.pdf) . It's free!

American Cars suck, period. Be careful though, we did buy a Mazda AKA Ford.

F.unctional
O.perations
R.endered
D.efective

RENE

Originally posted by Detroit RX8
One good reason.. it's called the UAW..

Where else can you get paid 90k a year for sleeping on the job?!

** I will probably get flamed for saying it but I don't care.. I also work for one of the Big 3..

I worked on the white collar engineering side of GM, and initially thought the same, but its the damn bean counters and all the stupid paperwork it takes to do anything that eventually is reported on a balance sheet. Many Mazda's are built in UAW plants in Michigan without the quality problems that domestice designs experience. Get engineers in the upper management instead of accountants and the U.S. cars will be much much better.

Originally posted by Rotary Nut
[B]Here is one of largest recalls in history... VW/Audi recalled over 800,000 vehicles world wide for failed coil packs. It affected every gasoline engine in the line up except for the VW 2.8 V6. Every W8, 3.0 V6, 2.0 and 1.8 turbo fours, were affected from 2000 to 2003. This was due to a problem with the company (subcontractor) that was providing the defective units. I had three replaced in my W8 alone!


Similar experience here with my wife's passat. Three dealer trips for the same f****** problem. On the first visit, I thought they fixed everything. On the next visit I asked if all the coil packs were replaced and was told yes. On the third visit, they confirmed that all were replaced now, but they only replaced the deffective coils on the proir visits due to a shortage.....

VW is off the list for me from now on.

Originally posted by moRotorMotor
I am into R/C and all of my radios are from Japan. They are manufactured in China or Taiwan but you can still see and feel it is designed in Japan in order to keep costs down.

Design is one element of producing a reliable product. Manufacturing is a much bigger part. Design engineering better tie into manufacturing early on in the design process. Just because the design engineer specs a +/- .005" tolereance, doesn't mean a process can deliver that. There is so much that goes into making a reliable product that giving the design engineering the majority stack is not realistic.

By the way, the suspension in Acura's are design in Marysville, USA. Ask my buddy who's working on the TL. 350z was partially designed in India and California.

Don't buy into the myth of Japan, just like the myth of "German craftmanship. IT's a myth. Not all Japanese companies make quality products. I'll give you that the Japanese had a head start in quality systems, but everyone is catching up.

GM in the US has a lot baggage, but they know what it takes to make a quality product. GM is starting some really nice facilities in China. Watch what they can do their. Green field startup, no baggage, lean manufacturing from the ground with Statistical Process Control and very dedicated workforce. GM China may become a really good car manufacturer, maybe even better than Japan.

Originally posted by Magic8
Don't buy into the myth of Japan, just like the myth of "German craftmanship. IT's a myth. Not all Japanese companies make quality products. I'll give you that the Japanese had a head start in quality systems, but everyone is catching up.

GM in the US has a lot baggage, but they know what it takes to make a quality product. GM is starting some really nice facilities in China. Watch what they can do their. Green field startup, no baggage, lean manufacturing from the ground with Statistical Process Control and very dedicated workforce. GM China may become a really good car manufacturer, maybe even better than Japan.

So true. Why hasn't anybody here noticed that the Japanese quality reputation is deservedly carried by Toyota and Honda but guys like Mazda and Nissan trail GM and Ford?

The biggest baggage that the American car companies have is their employee and retiree related medical expenses. The foreign competition has this covered by their governments and here in the USA medical costs are massive.

It is so ironic that we get so many people that post here that American products suck because of unions, crappy management, apathetic workers, dumb engineers, etc. Yet these posters are Americans and likely do not believe any of those traits apply to them. Like they are some sort of exception.

Originally posted by babylou
The biggest baggage that the American car companies have is their employee and retiree related medical expenses. The foreign competition has this covered by their governments and here in the USA medical costs are massive.

This is so true, lower salary overseas is probably a small reason why companies move there.

This is one of the biggest reason why U.S. steel makers can't turn a profit, despite all the protectionist measures that were taken.

Sorry, I degress....

I don't know too much about behind the scenes of automobiles so I will take your word for it. What I am going to do is argue my point solely from an experience standpoint. Because Experience is the greatest teacher. I will also degress but still argue my stand on the "World vs. Japan" discussion.

Maybe I used the wrong term for what I was trying to say earlier. Manufacturing sounds a little too misleading. The term I should have used was assembly. I don't know too much about cars so I will stick with what I know. With my radio transmitters, all the circuit boards have the "Made in Japan" stamp on them. Anything that is not crucial for the functionality of the radio can be outsourced to other countries that can manufacture that particular part at a lower cost. All the parts are then sent to either China or Taiwan to be assembled.

I am saying this from experience and not for the sake I feel like arguing. I have tried to give other companies a chance with their product. Knowing that it was, from the ground up: designed, manufactured and assembled in the two countries mentioned above. What did I end up with? A runaway, meaning I lost control of my vehicle. I have learned my lesson well.

To sum it all up: when it comes down to electronics, I will always look if I can find one that is made in Japan. There is absolutely no questions asked. I do not find it surprising that most of the electronics that continue to work in the house, are made from the land of the rising sun. I have 5 televisions in the house and 2 crapped out on me. Yup, you guessed it. The 3 other working sets are from Japan or a Japanese brand and the other 2 wasn't. I do not consider those two experiences a coincidence. Therefore I will continue to use that as guidline whenever I purchase electronics.

Finally, I am going to agree with you that other companies in the automobile world are making leaps and bounds towards building a better vehicle. In the near future, American brand cars will meet or surpass the Japanese brand cars in the reliability and workmanship benchmark. Until then, I am standing firm with Japanese products only. :D

Originally posted by Magic8
Design is one element of producing a reliable product. Manufacturing is a much bigger part. Design engineering better tie into manufacturing early on in the design process. Just because the design engineer specs a +/- .005" tolereance, doesn't mean a process can deliver that. There is so much that goes into making a reliable product that giving the design engineering the majority stack is not realistic.

By the way, the suspension in Acura's are design in Marysville, USA. Ask my buddy who's working on the TL. 350z was partially designed in India and California.

Don't buy into the myth of Japan, just like the myth of "German craftmanship. IT's a myth. Not all Japanese companies make quality products. I'll give you that the Japanese had a head start in quality systems, but everyone is catching up.

GM in the US has a lot baggage, but they know what it takes to make a quality product. GM is starting some really nice facilities in China. Watch what they can do their. Green field startup, no baggage, lean manufacturing from the ground with Statistical Process Control and very dedicated workforce. GM China may become a really good car manufacturer, maybe even better than Japan.

This is a good thread.. I too love Mazda, and I work for Ford,
so yeah kinda biased, but in this case i'm not a traitor since
Ford owns a stake in Mazda. But Ford is getting better in
quality, but in my opinion the biggest mistake American car
companies messed up in is brand recognition.

Think about it, and some of you posted, you hear Chevy, Ford
and Chrysler you go "they suck" Why? You hear Honda, Toyota,
BMW, Ferrari, and "they are the epitome of engineering"

Brand Recognition.

Reputation, once is gone, is deadly. This is what the big 3 have
to fix. Ford was once known for their excellent repairbilty, Chevy
for their engines. Now that they allowed to lax and think "Well, we are in america, everybody will buy american cars, great stock
bonuses coming!!" BAD MOVE. the competion from asia and europe knew that line too. So how do you overcome that?
Simple Capitalism, do what the the big three cant or better.

No one wouldv'e got a Honda, until the big oil crisis, and hey,
they give better gas mileage, drove it like I stole it and just
have to keep the oil up to F. They listened during this time, and
look what happens, simple business, if you give the customer
what he/she wants, they will buy.

I am a Patriot, and love and feel our products can compete.
but they have to get us to BELIEVE again.

Yes, Honda at one time had horrible reliabilty. Did you hear
about it? Nope. Because they fixed it. Garbage men in
Germany drive Beemers and Mercedes.. does it make it
less luxurious? No. Harley Davidson is a good example of
what a american company can do. They suck gas, overpriced,
and leaked oil, but you know what? We believed in them. They
fixed most of these problems, and they are one of the most
recogized brand in motorcycling. Even people who don't even
ride like harleys.. Why? Because we believe in them. We believe
in their image. I feel the big 3 missed out because instead of
listening to the customer and worried about their own wants,
they wouldnt be made fun of, and a lot richer. Just my 2 cents.

 

Babylou:

I think many here are confusing quality and reliability.

There is no doubt that American cars are becomming very reliable, as evidenced by the J.D. Powers survey. However, I think many will agree that the quality of the product leaves much to be desired. Sit in an American car, and then sit in a Japanesse or German car. There is usually a genuine odd feeling of cheapness in the American car compared with the others. I'm not sure if it is due to difference in materials, but as far as quality goes, they just seem to lack the fit and finish of other cars.

Just my .2 cents.

Hmm...try this one on for size:

The best engineers in America are all concentrated in our defense industry. They're building fire control systems, stealth bombers, smart bombs, etc.

Germany and Japan haven't had a signifigant defense industry in 60 years. So what does a bright young Japanese engineer do after college? He builds cars.

Comments?

Originally posted by Frogger
Babylou:

I think many here are confusing quality and reliability.

Just my .2 cents.

No, their one in the same. An unreliable product is a low quality product. What you describe I would say is a design issue. Bad interruptation of customer desires and needs.

BTW don't knock Honda and Toyota, they really deserve their reputation for high quality products. They saw value in data-based quality control, while Big Three did not. Some of you may know but there is this American named Demmings that was basically responsible for modern quality control. The Big Three in their arrogance laughed him out of the U.S., so he found a more receptive audience in Japan.

Here's my posistion

I am a guy that loves cars, appreciates the attention to detail in the Japanese cars(mostly Toyota and Honda), and have little money. When I buy a car, I'm planning on owning it for a long time. I can't afford to trade cars in every few years and always have a car under warranty. For a family car I buy the most reliable car I can...that's why I'm a Toyota lover....Yeah the cars are bland, but they have no vices, and are reliable as death. Plus with a little mods they can be fun to drive. As for taking the exception with the RX8....well it's a toy. It isn't quite as bulletproof as my Toyota's, but the percieved quality is there, it has great attention to detail, and since it was more of an emotional choice, it satisfies me. With the exception of a rotary Mazda I will never ever buy a non-Toyota car again. What they provide is value...I don't have the patience to deal with crappy cars....

Originally posted by Frogger
Babylou:

I think many here are confusing quality and reliability.

There is no doubt that American cars are becomming very reliable, as evidenced by the J.D. Powers survey. However, I think many will agree that the quality of the product leaves much to be desired. Sit in an American car, and then sit in a Japanesse or German car. There is usually a genuine odd feeling of cheapness in the American car compared with the others. I'm not sure if it is due to difference in materials, but as far as quality goes, they just seem to lack the fit and finish of other cars.

Just my .2 cents.

I agree that there is the question of what is defined by quality. It seems to me that most people percieve quality and reliability as the same so I have gone along.

I do not agree that the quality of the modern American car trails the competition. Forget about a 1984 Pontiac Grand Prix or any Camaro (the last model was designed in 1983 but sold until a few years ago) For instance, I have ordered a new Caddy CTS as a work vehicle. Compare this to a BMW 5er. The Caddy will likely be more reliable, has equivalent performance and I have not identified any fit/finish issues on the vehicles on the lot. All this for 2/3 the cost!

Originally posted by JCaldwell
Hmm...try this one on for size:

The best engineers in America are all concentrated in our defense industry. They're building fire control systems, stealth bombers, smart bombs, etc.

Germany and Japan haven't had a signifigant defense industry in 60 years. So what does a bright young Japanese engineer do after college? He builds cars.

Comments?

I doubt this because defense industry compensation is below private industry. I know I have never lost an engineering recruit to a defense contractor.

Wow, it's getting hot in here. JasonHamilton, that rebuild kit was great! Maybe I should have used an example other than My Fiancee's Jetta, which has not had a single problem over the past 2 years. Imagine that, no transmission noises, flooding, rear end problems, multiple ECU reflashes, spark plug fouling, airbag recalls, transmission damper failures, HP fudging resulting in buy backs, squeaking brakes, AC amplifiers etc. I love my 8 but let's not forget what WE are dealing with.

Granted, there are exceptions to every rule. My last car was a 2003 Honda Accord coupe. I traded it in because it randomly and unexplainably leaked water into various parts of the interior every time I drove in the rain resulting in mildewed carpet. The brake rotors warped after 5000 miles of freeway driving and both B- pillar trim pieces fell off. The window weatherstripping had to be replaced 3 times for wrinkling and warping. Oh yeah, and it came from the dealer with low freon and the 6 disc changer was replaced the weekend I bought it because it broke. I don't think a reliable VW is any more an exception than my Honda experience (my dad has had a 2000 passat since new with no problems) If 800,000 cars are recalled for the same problem it will certainly have an effect on the reliability numbers. Now I would ask this, If 800,000 cars are recalled for 1 thing, does that make it less relaible than a company that has fewer cars recalled/repaired on a greater number of occasions for a greater number of reasons?

There are folks citing bad VW service dept's. Again, let's not forget what WE are dealing with. I don't know of too many folks that are thrilled with their service department (I am, but then again, there are always exceptions). I have a feeling (but admittedly no proof) that any crummy VW service dept is an exception.

Let's not forget that it is entirely possible that american cars have less reported problems per vehicle because people just let them go to shit anyway. How many crapped out 2001-2 Neon, escort, cavalier's do you see? Now, how many crapped out 2001-2 civic, corolla, sentra's do you see? People take better care of better cars, therefore more problems are "reported" i.e expected to be fixed. I concede that this theory isn't perfect because if it were, Kia's would be considered really great cars. There are just so many factors to consider, for example....

The word Problem is a shaky metric at best. The study fails to take into account what each brand's owner considers to be a "problem" with their vehicle. That is certainly a variable, yes?

For example, my friends Tahoe went through a 10,000 mile "100 something or another point" quality inspection. It went in with and came out with an inop daytime running light and the passenger power mirror didn't work. The dealership failed to recognize either "problem" therefore, no problems. Let's also consider how people treat buick's and oldsmobiles, I don't even see those cars get up to the speed limit half the time. They have been using essentially the same chassis/engine/transmission/HVAC controls/window motors/switchgear/blah blah for like 10 years. I guess that makes them better than Mazda's? That's what the numbers in the JD power report say isn't it? Damn, I should have bought a nice buick century, or a Pontiac Grand Am. Those things reek of initial quality and continuous refinement. GM finds something that works OK and gives the sheetmetal facelift every few years. That's their idea of refinement.

Please allow me to retract my VW story and simply re-ask the original question. How come American's can't build a decent car?

P.S. Good call to those of you citing 60's and 70's era VW beetles and Audi's as examples of the marque. By that token Honda's and nissan/datsun's were crap too. Let's not forget the 70's era american heaps like the mustang II, pinto, AMC's and that god awful turbo camaro/firebird.

Originally posted by newtlicious

Please allow me to retract my VW story and simply re-ask the original question. How come American's can't build a decent car?


Maybe they can, but I guess descent is a subjective term. Do you mean high quality, good looks, attractive interior, options and features, reliability? Also, what do you mean by an American's building the car? An American name plate, American final assembly, American design, American engineering?

In today's world cars are rarely true domestic cars and imports don't always come from where you might expect. Mazda 6's are primarily made/assembled in a Ford plant in Flat Rock, Michigan, in the same plant that will build/assemble the new Mustang. Some BMW's are designed in California, built in South Carolina and engineered in Germany. Many GM cars are designed in the U.S. with transmissions from Mexico and final build in Canada. Lower end VW's in the U.S. are built in Mexico. The Accura TL and Honda Accord were designed in the U.S. with some enginering done in the U.S. and many parts sourced from the U.S.

Also, even where the mark may be associated with a particular country of origin the ultimate profits may end up elsewhere. Chrysler is a subsidiary of Mercedes and the profits ultimately end up in Germany. Jaguar, Volvo, and Mazda are subsidiaries of Ford and the profits ultimately end up in in the U.S. Mini and Rolls Royce are a subsidiaries of BMW and the profits ultimately end up in Germany. Saab and Subaru are subsidiaries of GM, which is headquartered in the U.S.

Before we can discuss the question of whether
American's can build a decent car? we need to determine what you mean by your question.

Originally posted by ALMOST8IT


In today's world cars are rarely true domestic cars and imports don't always come from where you might expect. Mazda 6's are primarily made/assembled in a Ford plant in Flat Rock, Michigan, in the same plant that will build/assemble the new Mustang. Some BMW's are designed in California, built in South Carolina and engineered in Germany. Many GM cars are designed in the U.S. with transmissions from Mexico and final build in Canada. Lower end VW's in the U.S. are built in Mexico. The Accura TL and Honda Accord were designed in the U.S. with some enginering done in the U.S. and many parts sourced from the U.S.




I concede that you are correct in this statement. I have already made this concession and acknowledged that Honda, Nissan and Toyota "assemble" cars here. However, those cars were designed, engineered and the pieces were constructed with japanese care and superivision/approval to japanese standards and then "assembled" here. That does not make them "American" in my sense of the term.

For the purposes of my question, the term "americans" when used to describe an automobile monniker shall be understood as those brands that, to a reasonable person, would be commonly referred to as american cars. Taking into account all the mergers, acquisitions and corporate mayhem involved in the auto industry today, I would still think that a reasonable person would not list Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Saab, BMW, Mercedes benz, Honda, Toyota or Nissan as an american car. Would you call a Ferrari a Fiat? Nissan a French car? Lamborghini a german car?

For rhetoric's sake I will list those manufacturers that I would think are considered american being that they are designed, engineered and the pieces constructed with American "care" and supervision/approval to american "standards."

Ford
Chevy
GMC
Buick
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Jeep
Dodge is debatable

With regard to Decent, this is a poor metric I admit, kind of like "clean cut" or "well spoken" I am sorry I can't come up with a word that better describes what I mean. I did give some examples in my first post though....

I think this should have been a poll.

Originally posted by Rotary Nut
Americans will never build a better car because all they really care about is clocking in and clocking out! Its all about keeping the job, screw what it is you're doing just make sure you get that paycheck! Screw the workmanship whene all the employer cares about is how many cars you got finished and not how good you got them assembled!

"Quality is Job one" yeah right!

"like a rock" and it handles like one!

I have to agree with you in a way.. I happened to be in a still young plant (6yrs old) and already the management is bringing down the place. I'm a CNC technician at Eaton Corp (automotive, torque control products) and I make the gears that go into limited-slip differential lockers. After working there for over a year I got a taste of what a team of managers can do to the workforce of a plant. If you have a team that doesn't value the workers input or even gives a care on how you perform on the job, this is what happens, lower quality. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole barrel.

Watch one person slack off everyday and get the same standard raise as everyone else after the annual review, because the managers were too lazy to take action and too scared to do their job of giving people heat for slacking. Everyone else sees the slacker getting the same pay so they slack off too, because he's not getting into trouble. No one cares as long as they get paid, this runs into the management too, unlike the workers the managers usually are paid salary, so they don't get paid extra for any extra effort or overtime. So why should they?

When workers see that they aren't treated fairly or that they aren't rewarded for their efforts, they slack. I've seen it firsthand and I've become a victim of it as well. I still make a quality product but I won't clean my cell (5S), because no one else is and management doesn't care to be fair about it.

I won't say that everyone is this way at my plant there are a few that do all the can regardless. It does seem like the 1st shift people are more suspectable to slack. It is because they have nothing to gain by doing better, they are working the shift they want to and most likely have for years. The mentality of most dayshifters in a plant that runs 24hrs a day is: we were here first, we don't have to do anything.

I dunno maybe its a culture thing? I'm done rambling. :)

I read through the first pages and I don't know if it had been mentoined.

Bottom line is:
The big 3 cares about cost and that is it! a part could cost .03 cents more and still go with the cheaper thinking that suppliers are all the same due to qs9000/ts1649xxx standards (load of crap)

Toyota and honda are more interested in commitment to quality over cost. I could quote them .50 cents more and they will buy as long as good history is there and they will work with you.

One thing that's always amazed me (I'm an industrial designer by training) is how so many conservative and dull styling jobs can make it into American auto production? I've owned a 73 T top vette and a slew of U.S. cars, but I was happiest with my Saab 900s and now my RX8. I wouldn't care if the car had a go cart engine in it...just deliver some exciting exterior design and an innovative interior. The 4 door 8 is absolutely brilliant in design and I have been looking for a 4 place sports car since the Lamborghini Estrada days. Delighted that Mazda could pull it off at an affordable price. I'm afraid it will be a long time until we see something as innovative come out of Detroit.**The PT Cruiser came close.

read up on C&D's review of the C6.....The American Manufacturers are learning.... slowly, but learning all the same.

C6 got a glowing review, even on non performance issues like ergonomics and interior styling