This wa ssent to me from a friend in California!

Subject: Islamic Explanation
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:25:02 EDT

Subject: Islamic Explanation

This is in reference to my boys who are involved in the Middle Eastern
Conflict, may they come home safely.

Interesting Reading!

Sergeant Raymond Miller
Crime Prevention Noncommissioned Officer-In-Charge
United States Marine Corps
Provost Marshal's Office
Physical Security / Crime Prevention Section
Twentynine Palms, CA 92284

Subject: FW: Allah or Jesus? by Rick Matthews


Allah or Jesus? by Rick Mathews

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session

there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?" There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!" I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?" The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes." I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!" The Imam was speechless. I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?" You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs. I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your email contacts. This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathews, is a well known leader in prison ministry

Part of the problem is there is a system in place to spout plausible deniability. Many eat it up without a second thought. I'm surprised that he admitted to anything like that.

I found this article, which explains some terms.

A leader of the small worldwide Muslim reform movement is warning the West against wishful thinking as the U.S. government promotes an intensive dialogue with Islam.

"The dialogue is not proceeding well because of the two-facedness of most Muslim interlocutors on the one hand and the gullibility of well-meaning Western idealists on the other," Bassam Tibi said Tuesday in an interview with United Press International.

Syrian-born Tibi, who claims to be a direct descendant of the prophet Mohammed and teaches political science at Goettingen University in Germany, appealed for intellectual honesty in these exchanges.

This Is 'Peace'?

"First, both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms these mean different things to each of them. The word 'peace,' for example, implies to a Muslim the extension of the Dar al-Islam – or 'House of Islam' – to the entire world," explained Tibi, who is also a research scholar at Harvard University.

"This is completely different from the Enlightenment concept of eternal peace that dominates Western thought, a concept developed by Immanuel Kant," an 18th-century philosopher.

This Is 'Tolerance'?

"Similarly, when Muslims and the Western heirs of the Enlightenment speak of tolerance they have different things in mind. In Islamic terminology, this term implies abiding non-Islamic monotheists, such as Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians, as second-class believers. They are 'dhimmi,' a protected but politically immature minority."

According to Tibi, the quest of converting the entire world to Islam is an immutable fixture of the Muslim worldview. Only if this task is accomplished, if the world has become a "Dar al-Islam," will it also be a "Dar a-Salam," or a house of peace.

If you can't read - 'peace' can only be achieved by converting the world to Islam.

Heres what they said about it in www.Snopes.com ( a website where an Man and his Wife get myths and decided wether they are true or false)

Claim: Imam is questioned about Islamic attitude toward infidels.

Status: Undetermined.

Example: [Mathes, 2003]



Allah or Jesus?
Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers who represented the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths who explained their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.

The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam complete with a video. After the presentations time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that all of the Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. Is that correct?"

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then said, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Pat Robertson or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to heaven."

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question . . . would you rather have your Allah who tell[s] you to kill me in order to go to heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

Chuck Colson once told me something that has sustained me these 20 years of prison ministry. He said to me, "Rick, remember that the truth will prevail."

And it will!

Origins: The piece quoted above ("Allah or Jesus?") is an editorial (http://www.charityadvantage.com/missiongateministry/Editorials.asp) penned by Rick Mathes, Executive Director of the Mission Gate (http://www.charityadvantage.com/missiongateministry/HomePage.asp) Prison Ministry.

We asked Mr. Mathes if he could provide some information about the origins of the piece, and he responded:

This article is an exact recording of a real event that I participated in. My only commentary was, "the truth will prevail." I think this meeting was in May 2003 and I will not give out more details for fear of retribution. The purpose of the class was to increase "religious sensitivity", that is, tolerance for each others beliefs and I really blew that. The director was purple with rage however the Imam and I exchanged signs and said "Salaam" which means "peace" in Arabic (I hope). I questioned him (Imam) really to get a clear refutation of what is commonly thought of this Jihad nonsense. But apparently he wasn't educated enough to rebut my remarks or by his silence on this matter (I think) concurred with my implied conclusions. In either case I was surprised. And when I said I found it hard to be his friend, everyone laughed out loud. So the mood was an amazing mix of those who were interested like me and others that were just amused by the whole thing. I left the matter open on purpose (the truth will prevail) so that either side could speak up and claim the truth as their own.

According to Tim Kniest, Public Information Officer for the Missouri Department of Corrections, the event described was a training program for prison volunteers, for which ministers from several faiths were invited to give presentations in order to acquaint prison volunteers with the varied religious beliefs of the inmate population. The man who gave the presentation about Islam was not a Muslim minister; he was an inmate pressed into service to present a short film on Islam and answer some questions when the prison's Volunteer Coordinator was "unable to find an Imam to speak."

. . . the Volunteer Coordinator at the prison said that no such exchange as the editorial reported ever took place. "He certainly did not 'Hang his head in shame'," according to Kniest. In fact, the inmate was thanked by the assembly before being escorted back to his quarters. Furthermore, the coordinator does not recall any questions dealing with jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world as reported in the editorial.

In the editorial the inmate is presented as an Imam, or Islamic minister, which he clearly was not.

Whatever may have transpired at the prison training session referred to above, the notion expressed by this piece is inaccurate. Islam is not a monolithic religion in which unanimity of belief and action is coordinated from a central authority. Islam has an estimated two billion adherents in countries (http://islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm) all over the world who belong to any one of a number of differentsects (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/blfaq_islam_sects.htm) with varying beliefs, traditions, and interpretations of scripture. (As well, some religious groups identify themselves as Islamic (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/) but are not recognized as such by the vast majority of Muslims.) No one Muslim (especially one who wasn't even a cleric) could speak to what all of Islam believes, any more than a single member of a Methodist congregation could speak for every denomination and follower of Christianity. Many, many Muslims reject (http://islamicweb.com/begin/myth10.htm) the idea that "all followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of their faith," or even the suggestion that such an interpretation has ever been a valid tenet of Islam. We sent this piece to several Muslim groups and invited them to offer comments; they provided somewhat different explanations about the concept of jihad, how Muslims regard non-Muslims, and other related topics, but they all agreed that the editorial presented a grossly distorted version of their beliefs.

Source:
Snopes - Allah or Jesus? (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp)

Rotary nut

Most so call men of god Imans are devils preaching hatred of the infidels to a bunch of brainwashed tribal morrons who believe in heaven for salvation .

cheers
michael

btw, I looked around online, and the letter that you quoted is likely a hoax - http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

As I said, I have doubts about them admitting something like that.

There is something called Taqiyya. Which means basically: the hiding of one's true faith from others in times of danger.

Taqiyya also allows you to lie as long as you have "true faith" in your heart.

Basically they can say whatever they want to get the desired effect without issue.


Quran Speaks: al-Taqiyya vs. Hypocrisy
======================================
Some people have fallen victim to confusing al-Taqiyya with hypocrisy, when
in fact they (al-Taqiyya and Hypocrisy) are two opposite extremes. al-
Taqiyya is concealing faith and displaying nonbelief; while Hypocrisy is
the concealment of unbelief and the display of belief. They are TOTAL
opposites in function, form, and meaning.

The Quran reveals the nature of hypocrisy with the following verse:

"When they meet those who believe, they say: `We Believe;' but when
they are alone with their evil ones, they say: `We are really with
you, we (were) only jesting [2:14]."

The Quran then reveals al-Taqiyya with the following verses:

"A Believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had CONCEALED
his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because he says, `My Lord is
Allah'?....[40:28]" (Emphasis Mine.)

Also:

"Any one who, after accepting Faith in Allah, utters unbelief, EXCEPT
under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith -- but such as
open their breast to unbelief, -- on them is Wrath from Allah, and
theirs will be a dreadful Chastisement [16:106]." (Emphasis Mine.)

And also:

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather
than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left
with Allah except by way of precaution ("tat-taqooh"), that ye may
guard yourselves ("tooqatan") from them....[3:28]"

Moreover:

And when Moses returned unto his people, angry and grieved, he said:
Evil is that (course) which ye took after I had left you. Would ye
hasten on the judgment of your Lord? And he cast down the tablets,
and he seized his brother by the head, dragging him toward him.
(Aaron) said: "Son of my mother! Lo! People did oppress me and they
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
were about to kill me. Make not the enemies rejoice over my
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
misfortune nor count thou me amongst the sinful people. [7:150]"

. . |: : | | / . . .: | : || |
_,_, q_|_,_o_, | q > |_) q _, q_9_e,_p_,_w | o q_o_|| . |
(_S / : / / (_S / ( / (_)

Now, we see that Allah (SWT) Himself has stated that one of His (SWT)
faithful servants CONCEALED his faith and pretended that he was a follower
of the Pharaoh's religion to escape persecution. We also see that Prophet
Aaron (Haroon) observed Taqiyya when his life was in danger. We also
observe that al-Taqiyya is CLEARLY permitted in a time of need. In fact,
the Book of Allah instructs us that we should escape a situation which
causes our destruction for nothing:

"and make not your own hands contribute to your destruction [2:195]"


================
Reason and Logic
================
Aside from the instuctions of Quan and Hadith on the permissibility and
necessity of Taqiyya, such necessity can also be derived from a logical
and rational standpoint. It is apparent to any discerning observer that
Allah (SWT) has bestowed upon His (SWT) creation certain defense mechanisms
and instincts to protect themselves from impending danger. What follows
are some examples that serve to illustrate the above point.

This FAQ explains more: http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/3.html

The title its self already kills the article.

Allah or Jesus?

How about Allah and Jesus, since Muslims do believe in Jesus as a messenger from God.

Heres a verse from the Quran which talks about the killing of innocent life :

[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)

Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of certain crimes. It is well to remember at this point the distinction made above between Qur'an and Sunnah, and the Muslims: only the Qur'an and Sunnah are guaranteed to be in accordance with what the Creator desires, whereas the Muslims may possibly deviate. Hence, if any Muslim kills an innocent person, that Muslim has committed a grave sin, and certainly the action cannot be claimed to have been done "in the name of Islam."

Your Islamphobic thinking won't take you anywhere besides Hell, so i suggest you to drop and tell your friend the same.

i thought no talking of relgion in the rules?

Do not start threads on religion in the Lounge area or anywhere else. Experience with the forum has proven that religious discussions inevitably become flamefests, which are prohibited (see the first rule above). So don't start them.

More on Taqiyya.

That it is legitimate to utter words of unbelief as al-Suyuti
stated; and that it is acceptable to smile at a person while your heart
curses him as al-Bukhari confirms; and that al- Taqiyya is an INTEGRAL part
of the Quran itself, as has been shown under the section of "The Quran
Speaks: al-Taqiyya vs. Hypocrisy;" and that it was practiced by one of the
MOST notable companions of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), none other than `Ammar
Ibn Yasir (May Allah Reward him GENEROUSLY); and we have seen that al-
Suyuti narrates that al-Taqiyya is permissible until the Day of Judgment;
and that a person can say anything he wants, even to badmouth the Prophet

No flames here! Just a calm discussion of islamic precepts!

well im unofficial rule police and regardless you are breaking that rule.. she said flame wars usually start so they banned it all together!

Closed. As Hitmann says, we're not debating this any more in here.

Hitman for President