0-60 in 4.4 sec. 1/4 mile in the 12 sec. range.
$40,000
What does everyone think?
The ultimate affordable sports (true) car.

The Baller thinks so.

Comes in a bunch of cool colors

nice

http://www.lotuscars.com/

It's a beautiful car. I may get one in addition to my 8 one day. From what I remember from reviews, it's a great handling car, but really beats you up much worse than the 350Z and is not a good choice for a daily driver. But for a weekend/autox car I think it's a great choice at a very affordable price.

When the new year started i put up 3 pics of cars i wanted to buy this summer on my office wall. A RX-8, BMW M3 and Lotus Elise. I went with the 8, but wouldn't mind having one of these bad boys. Awesome car

1950 pounds

Yes 1950lbs, powered by a tuned Toyota Celica motor. But, 40k??? :(

Nice car but it's all fiberglass and the engine is actually not very powerful. The car is very light and handles pretty good. It is a true sports car mainly because you can't drive it every day.... it doesn't even have a truck! I would say it's an nice expensive toy.

Wow. I wonder how much pounds would be shed if a renesis was put in there. Like it needs to lose weight anyway.

The new Porsche and Mercedes supercars are composite construction also......."not that powerful" 0-60 in 4.4 and 12 sec. quarters.......seems fast to me....
The complex front and rear clarnshells of the Elise required a return to labour intensive 'hand-lay', much to the frustration of the manufacturing team. This entailed first spraying a gel coat finish into the mould to give the panel its smooth surface. The correct grades of glassfibre matting were then cut from templates and laid in before skilled operatives brushed resin on and laboriously smoothed the surface with a hand roller to remove air pockets. Each mould was made up of different sections, which were then unbolted to release the panel to be sent for baking and air curing before a second visit to the oven. Although patchy quality can be a drawback to hand-lay, the finish of the Elise was very good, with none of the kit-car feel that glassfibre can acquire. 'Hand-lay is pretty crude,' admitted Tony Shute, 'but the tooling cost is quite low and you can change it right at the end of the programme. When you're doing a twoyear programme you get stuck into doing things like that.'

Some panels, such as doors, bonnet, windscreen frame and sills, could be made using the quicker and less labourintensive VARI (vacuum assisted resin injection) process, developed for the 1974 Elite. This method involves spraying the gel coat on to a female mould, laying the matting and then fitting a male mould and creating a vacuum into which liquid resin can be injected. The stronger crash structure was made by the more costly high-pressure resin transfer moulding (RTM) system. Once a set of panels had been produced it was taken to the machining area where a high-power water jet trimmed imperfections and cut apertures such as the headlamp holes. After final tidying by hand the panels then moved to the paint shop to be primed, painted and lacquered then baked in an oven to cure the finish. A check for blemishes under daylight inspection lighting was made before they could be sent to the assembly line.

Early chassis production was at the Hydro plant in Tonder, southern Denmark, but from 1998 it transferred to the new Hydro factory in Worcester, reducing costs and complications. The construction process and bonding techniques were conceived by Lotus, but carried out by the experts at Hydro. Once the aluminium had been extruded and machined, it was anodised to pre-treat the surface before the adhesive was applied and the structure assembled in a jig. The bonds were executed in a controlled environment with careful monitoring of temperature and humidity to ensure every bond was perfect, before the rivets could be applied and the structure removed from the jig for the adhesive to be oven-cured. Steel parts such as wishbones and rear subframes were machined at Hethel, with pressings stamped by computercontrolled tools and welded in jigs by trained operatives, before being sent away to be zinc galvanised.

Lotus-made and sourced parts met the chassis in the assembly area, more a progressive coming-together of components than the automated approach of motor industry big boys. The chassis was mounted in a rotating frame and first the wiring loom, then the steering rack, pedal box, handbrake, gear linkage and fuel tank and lines were fitted. Once the rear subfirame was in place the Kseries engine could be lowered in and the suspension, brakes and roll bar added. Next, the glue came out again to bond in the crash structure, windscreen and body, which aligned on special pick-ups designed-in as part of the extrusions. The clamshells themselves were fitted with lights and grilles on a sub-assembly before meeting the chassis.

With the body in place, the suspension was aligned, a job made significantly easier by the Hunter rig, which accurately aligned the wheels using hub-mounted sensors. The in-house moulded doors and seats, as well as soft-tops and vacuummoulded plastic parts, were hand-finished in separate sub assemblies before being fitted on the line. Once completed, the car was checked over, fired up and taken for a shakedown on the track before being tested for leaks. Twice a week, a car was selected at random to be given a full quality audit both in the factory under the daylight quality lights and out on the track to ensure standards remained as high as possible.

As further variations appeared on the same basic tub (see Chapters 3 and 5), there was a new challenge for the production team. 'Factory 1 became a more flexible assembly line, introducing 135s, 160s, 11 1Ss and 340Rs,'recalled Dowton. 'We had to work out different times for different processes for each model. At one time, we were producing 60 cars a week with five different variants on the line; every 30 minutes we'd produce a car. I was so proud of those people and what we achieved during that period of time.'

From Elise, Rebirth of the True Lotus by A

2005 LOTUS ELISE

Vehicle type: mid-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 2-passenger, 2-door roadster
Estimated base price: $39,000
Engine type: DOHC 16-valve inline-4, aluminum block and head, port fuel injection

Displacement: 110 cu in, 1796cc
Power (SAE net): 190 bhp @ 7800 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 133 lb-ft @ 6800 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Wheelbase: 90.6 in
Length/width/height: 149.0/67.7/44.0 in
Curb weight: 2000 lb

Manufacturer's performance ratings:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.9 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 12.6 sec
Top speed (drag limited): 155 mph

I would take the Garaiya Autobacs car over this one... even though it costs $55k for it... But you get to customize it to your liking.. any color, light as heck, interior custom..etc.

Too bad those suckers have a REALLY long wait list, and not coming to US anytime soon.

1.06 g

It’s quick on its feet, too, the most seductive of this car’s dynamic traits. The steering is quick and informative, grip is abundant—the Elise was the skidpad champ at 1.06 g, thanks to its Yokohama Advan A048 tires (part of the $2480 Sport package)—body roll is essentially nil, and the car communicates every move to its driver at a level that’s almost telepathic.

One of our former Forum RX-8 owners, Sin, is on the list for getting one of these. He is under 100, waiting list wise, but he said it would be at least late fall before he gets his.

Symbolic motors has me at number 17!
Mine will be black with a red leather interior and sports pak.

chassis

Baller, you're in for a treat. I've had my eye on this since they started making them. It looks like Lotus will really try hard on this one too. They are wanting early success and happy customers so they can grow their company. I'll bet it will be a fun and unique owner experience, like the RX8 is.

Since I noticed you're in Vegas, I have to mention renegadehybrids.com. They came recommended to me from a soon-to-be customer who has driven a 944 conversion of theirs. The 944 was a great handling car, and has a rather nice inside, even by todays standards. Because of engine/transmission reliability, you can pick up a structurally sound one for very little. They will yank the engine and throw in your Chevy V8 of choice. Now you have extreme hp for street or track, for very little investment or insurability money. And I think they are out of the Vegas area!

You talk my language my brother......a 944 with a V-8 WOW.....

...wouldn't that be like, a 928s?

i thought 944's had those small and weak V8's in 'em right from Porshe... no??

besides, a V8 conversion FC (of the same year) is better. 944 is IMO the worst Porshe ever (so damned ugly).

I saw it in person in the Detroit auto show, it smaller than a Miata!! I think it's kinda ugly, the only good thing is the performance! But $40K? Too much... I'll better take a 3rd gen RX-7 instead. 0-60 4.9sec, quarter mile in 13.8, 0.99g lateral accel for less than half the price and a turbo rotary!!! mmmmm

I don't think it looks that good. It seems too busy

Originally posted by MRX_Rotary
Wow. I wonder how much pounds would be shed if a renesis was put in there. Like it needs to lose weight anyway.

i believe the renesis is heavier than most 4 cylinder engines but lighter than 6 cylinder engines

awesome looking inside and out - too bad it's a death trap.

I don't think we'll be seeing many of those on the road with that price. Especially around a military base, like where I live. The most expensive car i've seen on base is a Viper.

I have the video from Top Gear if any of you guys can't wait to recieve your beast of a machine. :D

damn...its only 10k more than the 8??

not bad!

Originally posted by -8-
awesome looking inside and out - too bad it's a death trap.

What makes you think it is?

The Ali tub is incredibly strong, approaching F1 car strengths, and it has a built in roll bar. Its been on sale in the UK since 1996 and is definatly NOT a death trap.

It does have downpoints - the ali tub is almost impossible to repair so once damaged its an expensive repair. The body panels are composite/fiberglass and damage quite easily and will probably take you a while to get replaced/sprayed.

You wont get many in the US anyhow, if you havnt ordered already prepare for a long wait.

The first elise was just ove 700kg, this one is 950kg - so quite a bit heavier - mostly due to the toyota engine - a renesis would probably be lighter than the toyota and give more BHP, but cost a whole lot more, and it isnt a cheap car.

In the UK its quite a few more £k than the vx220T which is an almost identical car (built by lotus at hethel for vauxhaul - GM) but this has a 2 litre ecotec turbo.


I know many in the US have been waiting for this car, its truly one of a kind - a dying breeed, a true lightweight handling centric car, a real drivers car, no power steering, assisted brakes (tho ABS is now standard?), US version is comfortable comapred to older UK cars (now has Air con, electric windows, stereo ect). Will be a cracking buy, residuals ehre seem to have bottomed out at £10k for 96 cars - not to bad...

Oh and its just a little arkward to get into and out off, untill you put the roof on, then its a lot arkward. And I'm 5'8" 160llb.

I would be driving an elise now if I didnt need the extra seats.

oh...i was JUST driving one of these actually....


in my new game i bought yesterday for $10....R: Racing Evolution..hehe

Reminds me of a dune buggy -- a very expensive dune buggy ;)

I saw it in Detroit at the auto show -- first glance was kind of cool a moment of study led to the dune buggy viewpoint.

BTW -- at 6'3" 270 lbs. -- my attempt to sit in the vehicle was quickly aborted. I'm not sure that if I weighted 170 lbs. it would have made any difference. The Lotus makes the 8 look like a Maybach.

Originally posted by RXhusker
BTW -- at 6'3" 270 lbs. -- my attempt to sit in the vehicle was quickly aborted. I'm not sure that if I weighted 170 lbs. it would have made any difference. The Lotus makes the 8 look like a Maybach.

heh, it is small...

But did you actualy get in? Its quyite roomy for the type when you manage to get in. 6'3"/270 mebee pushing it some tho :)

And as I said, getting out is even worse.. Was the roof on or off?


If your realy intrested in lightweight small sportscars mebee have a look at the caterham SV, I think you can import/build them in the US.

based on the old lotus 7 (which caterham have the rights to) weighs 550kg (almost half the elise!) and powered with bike , 4 mot or more engines, anything from 120bhp to 250bhp+

Thier extreem version the r500e (500bhp/ton+) won this years autocar 0-100-0 timings, 10.38 to 100mph and back to 0. Ferrari enzo made 10.76. R500e costs £42k factory built...

Ordered and payed for it last year, it should be hear next month. I will have to bring it to a Houston club meet and leave the FD in the stable.

I have driven a pre-production already, this car has balls and is probably the best short track car in the world.

lack of dealer network and difficulty getting parts would keep me away from this car

Flatso

And you think Mazda dealers know how to work on a rotary? I don't think so.

This car is going to be ALOT more reliable then my seven or any 8 simply because alot of the mechanical parts for it are taken directly out of the Toyota parts bin.

Perhaps I am wrong please let us know if that rings true Giglo and good luck with your purchase.

I had a deposit on an Elise at least five years ago. First deposit in Texas. Right after the first generation debuted. About 2-1/2 years ago I finally figured Lotus was never gonna get off their butts and bring the car to North America so I cancelled my deposit. Within two months of my cancellation Lotus finally anounced their intention to bring the car here. Damn!

I can't believe there are people saying it's too expensive, and complaining about the looks. The Elise is a poor mans supercar and performance wise you're not going to get anything near it for the price. You're not going to find any US production car as fun to drive as the Elise under the 100k mark, seems like a bragain to me.

I love it! Probably as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

The only problem is availability, I heard they are sold out through 2006.

This is what the RX7 should compete with. Make the next RX7 super light (under 2000 lbs), use the 13B MSP, skip the frills and kick some a**. Cheers to Lotus, I hope Mazda follows.

Got to see one of the pre-production models last February, and spoke to the driver, who was taking the car cross-country. He happened to be staying at the same hotel as me.

I can understand how challanging it would be to get in & out of, as the Lotus has a very low stance.

What an awesome package. I hope those who have one on order keep us Club members informed on their purchase & opinions.

40,000 is affordable ?! There are so many alternatives out there for that price anyhow, still a sick ride though 8())

Really, I would like to say that I would have an Elise if I didn't have the 8, but I needed the extra seats, and at 6'3 190 I was a little bit concerned about the fit, the NVH is horrible because of saving weight, ride is harsh, and C&D (who are pretty good drivers) only managed a 13.2 1/4mi, but they got the 4.4 0-60. Basically this is not what I would want for an everyday driver, and I don't have money for a cheap everyday car and the Elise.

Only 4.4 and 13.2.......we could only wish our RX-8's ran like this, maybe when the turbo comes out.

9

suspen

colors

red

Originally posted by MazdaspeedFeras
i believe the renesis is heavier than most 4 cylinder engines but lighter than 6 cylinder engines

you believe wrong.

Originally posted by wakeech
you believe wrong.

Everything I've seen shows that most 4 cylinders are lighter than the Renesis. We had a thread about this some time ago and with the weights we could come up with the Elise/Celica engine in particular is a good amount lighter than the Renesis.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
Everything I've seen shows that most 4 cylinders are lighter than the Renesis. We had a thread about this some time ago and with the weights we could come up with the Elise/Celica engine in particular is a good amount lighter than the Renesis.

To be honest its hard to tell.

Unless you've actualy weighed engines any weights given are hard to compare as they often dont state dressed or with gearbox etc.

The renesis should be comparable to a 4 pot, probably somewhere betwen the rover k and the toyota.

The pictures of the yellow Elise posted is not the lastest that the Americans are getting. That's a 111S. What's going to America is the 111R. The 111R has got, side indicators on the wheel arch, the exhaust sits in the middle, and under the diffuser. Frankly, it doesn't look as nice.
The reason why the Elise didn't make to American any earlier was due to safety regulations. Then the car does not come with ABS, AirBags...
$40k! that's a steal! It's going for US$120k where I'm coming from...:(

This was news when I heard it was coming to the US 5 years ago.

Originally posted by M-ster
The reason why the Elise didn't make to American any earlier was due to safety regulations. Then the car does not come with ABS, AirBags...
$40k! that's a steal! It's going for US$120k where I'm coming from...:(

NPartialy true, the biggest reason was the engine - the rover k series could never be sold in the US.

That and they were selling as many as they could in the UK/Europe anyhow so had non spare for the us.

Originally posted by wakeech
you believe wrong.

thanks for all the proof, supporting evidence and education for those who dont know.

Front engined RX-8 = about 3000 lbs (I know this is ball park)

Mid engined Lotus Elise = 1950 lbs

All the proof I need.

I thought the Renises only weighed something like 70-80 lbs. That's good enough in my books.

Build Your U.S. Lotus Elise: Standard Features > Colors > Optional Features

2005 US Lotus Elise: MSRP: $39,985.00

Standard Features: Click '' for details.
- 190hp 4 Cylinder Engine
- 6 Speed Transmission
- Cross-drilled Brakes w/ABS
- 8 Spoke Cast Alum Wheels
- Yokohama AD07 Tires
- Stainless Steel Silencer
- Rear Diffuser with Alum Grills
- Central Twin Exhaust
- Front Mud Flaps
- High Level Third Brake Light
- Locking Wheel Bolts
- Tire Inflator
- Black Soft Top
- Air Conditioning
- Aluminum Gear Knob
- Aluminum E-Brake Handle
- Aluminum Window Winders
- Black Carpet Floormats
- Momo Steering Wheel
- Sun Visors
- Half Leather Seats/Cloth Inserts
- Airbag Driver and Passenger
- Blaupunkt FM/CD Player
- Central Locking
- Starter Button
- Alarm and Immobilizer
Standard Interior
- Black Cloth
Leather Interior - (Available with Touring Pack only)
- Black Leather
- Biscuit Leather
- Blue Leather
- Red Leather

* click for more info.
Base Price: $39,985.00
Destination Charge: $795.00
Paint Option: $0.00
Package Option: $0.00
Hard Top Option: $0.00

New Price: $40,780.00
* Price does not include tax, fees and any other charges. You may order option packages in any combination.


Choose Your Color: Click on the color swatch to see a sample color photo.
Standard Paint: Metallic Paint: $590.00 Lifestyle Paint: $1,200.00
Ardent Red Arctic Silver Chrome Orange
Saffron Yellow Aubergine Purple Graphite Gray
Aztec Bronze Krypton Green
Bordeaux Red Pearl
Magnetic Blue
Nightfall Blue
Racing Green
Starlight Black
Storm Titanium

Elise Optional Equipment
Hard Top: $1,475.00 Touring Pack: $1,350.00 Sports Pack: $2,480.00
- Color Matched - Full leather trim including perforated leather seats - Alloy Wheels - 7 twin-spoke forged aluminum
- Cloth Roof Lining - Electric Windows - Yokohama Tires - Front 195/50 R16 AO48R Rear 225/45 R17 AO48R
- Full Carpet Set - Bilstein Dampers with Adjustable Perches, Eibach Springs
- Blaupunkt FM/CD/MP3 Player
- Thermal and noise insulated soft-top
- Interior Storage Net
- Additional Interior Sound Insulation

Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine

Elise Toyota Engine Comments
By Jeff Chan
www.jeffchan.com


2ZZ-GE Engine 64 pounds

Air Conditioning 22 pounds
Twin Oil coolers 29 pounds
Other modifications 26 pounds

Originally posted by moRotorMotor
I thought the Renises only weighed something like 70-80 lbs. That's good enough in my books.
i think its much heavier than that lots of cast iron down there, i know it weighs 90 or so pounds less than the 350Z's engine, and im guessing that's at least 400-450lbs being a 3.5L V6

Originally posted by Baller
Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine

Elise Toyota Engine Comments
By Jeff Chan
www.jeffchan.com


2ZZ-GE Engine 64 pounds

Air Conditioning 22 pounds
Twin Oil coolers 29 pounds
Other modifications 26 pounds

Those are the weight increases over the standard Elise equipped with the Rover engine! The numbers came from Sports Car International and are the result of interviewing some Lotus engineers. http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html

For some comparisons:

Mazda's RX-8 Renesis = 302 lbs dressed
Mazda Miata 1.6L = 280 lbs dressed
Honda S2000 F20C= 326 lbs dressed
Honda Civic B20B (1997) = 318 lbs
Nissan SR20DE = 308 lbs dressed
Chevy LS2 (C6 Corvette) = 482 lbs dressed (manual tranny)

Originally posted by babylou
Those are the weight increases over the standard Elise equipped with the Rover engine! The numbers came from Sports Car International and are the result of interviewing some Lotus engineers. http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html

For some comparisons:

Mazda's RX-8 Renesis = 302 lbs dressed
Mazda Miata 1.6L = 280 lbs dressed
Honda S2000 F20C= 326 lbs dressed
Honda Civic B20B (1997) = 318 lbs
Nissan SR20DE = 308 lbs dressed
Chevy LS2 (C6 Corvette) = 482 lbs dressed (manual tranny)

The weight of the LS2 that you've posted is the weight of the engine and the transmission. A dressed LS2 longblock actually weighs 442lbs from what I've been able to find. Are the others weighed with their trannies, or just with their accessories? Thanks for the info, I'm trying to compile a list of engine weights so I appreciate any help you can give me. :)

MazdaspeedFeras: VQ35DE with accessories (dressed) - 420lbs

I want to see one of these in person just to see if I can fit inside it anyway at all. I'm uhh...6'6" 235 lbs. The sheer spectacle of it would be worth it. I've been told that the sight of me getting in and out of my 8 is rather amusing. :)

Originally posted by babylou
....Mazda's RX-8 Renesis = 302 lbs dressed...

that was the number I think I saw in some mags 'the renesis weighs about 130kg'

the elise is one of the best sports car out there. I've seen many driving around... unbelievable! never drove one but sat in and loved the driving position, even a friend of mine who is 2meters tall tried to squeeze in and he managed very easily! he loved it too!!

Originally posted by PoorCollegeKid
The weight of the LS2 that you've posted is the weight of the engine and the transmission. A dressed LS2 longblock actually weighs 442lbs from what I've been able to find. Are the others weighed with their trannies, or just with their accessories? Thanks for the info, I'm trying to compile a list of engine weights so I appreciate any help you can give me. :)

MazdaspeedFeras: VQ35DE with accessories (dressed) - 420lbs

No the weight I posted of the LS2 is not inclusive of the transmission. The LS2 for an auto tranny weighs 442 lbs but weighs 482 lbs for a manual tranny. I posted the manual tranny version since I was comparing it to other manual tranny engines. What is the difference you ask? One is equipped with a flex plate versus a flywheel. Check the Chevy website at http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/specs.htm and note these specs are for the 5.7l LS1 engine for the C5 versus the 6.0l LS2 for the C6 which is 15 lbs lighter.

You want engine weights huh? Go here (http://www.241computers.com/ford/ContentExpress20-30-38.html) and here (http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html) and here (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/8422/4age.htm)
.

Peace

Originally posted by babylou
No the weight I posted of the LS2 is not inclusive of the transmission. The LS2 for an auto tranny weighs 442 lbs but weighs 482 lbs for a manual tranny. I posted the manual tranny version since I was comparing it to other manual tranny engines. What is the difference you ask? One is equipped with a flex plate versus a flywheel. Check the Chevy website at http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/specs.htm and note these specs are for the 5.7l LS1 engine for the C5 versus the 6.0l LS2 for the C6 which is 15 lbs lighter.

You want engine weights huh? Go here (http://www.241computers.com/ford/ContentExpress20-30-38.html) and here (http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html) and here (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/8422/4age.htm)
.

Peace

Thanks a lot! :cool:

If I had the money for an Elise, I would lose the piston and install the Renesis. Hmmmmm lets see...similar weight, higher reving, more powerfull, smoother operation, more pimp factor:D. IMHO performance wise a Renesis would make that a damn near perfect 2 seater.

Originally posted by T-von
If I had the money for an Elise, I would lose the piston and install the Renesis. Hmmmmm lets see...similar weight, higher reving, more powerfull, smoother operation, more pimp factor:D. IMHO performance wise a Renesis would make that a damn near perfect 2 seater.

Theres already a few rotary engined elise's, most notably one in Germany with the 13b twin turbo.

Originally posted by GiN
Yes 1950lbs, powered by a tuned Toyota Celica motor. But, 40k??? :(

Cheapest exotic you can buy.

Great car too bad I can't afford it and service will be a pain since the closest dealership is 200+ miles from where I live.

Even if a modded (turbo, super charger) it still wouldn’t be comparable since it is still heavier than the Elise which means the handling and breaking will no where near the Elise.

*newbie question of the day!*

Since the Elise has a Toyota engine, why not bring it to the toyota dealer?

Originally posted by moRotorMotor
*newbie question of the day!*

Since the Elise has a Toyota engine, why not bring it to the toyota dealer?

That and the tranny is the only thing that is toyota. What about if you have other problems like electrical an so on.

It (Lotus) has modified it, but your right a Toyota dealer might be a good partnership. In Vegas we are getting a Lotus dealer in October, Towbin Rolls Royce, Bentley, that fits also as they have all the cool toys.

Originally posted by Hanzo
That and the tranny is the only thing that is toyota. What about if you have other problems like electrical an so on.

Don't be ridiculous! The Lotus Elise is English designed and built. The old Lucas Electrics ghost has moved to Germany and now haunts BMW, MBZ, and VW-Audi.

Its a lotus.

There will be minor problems with the car. Things like the wing mirrors falling off, leaks etc.

Usualy mechanicaly the Elise (apart from the k series head gasket) has been quite reliable.

For servicing any garage could do it I guess, with the parts - but you loose your FLSH and I guess you will end up taking it into a lotus dealer at some point.

UK cars have a check over/tune up at 1k mile - where they check the ECU to see if its been run in correctly btw...

Oh and the elise doesnt stop that great. Least first time. Many cars will outbrake it on a test run. BUT because of its light weight it'll stop very quickly time after time with very little brake fade, and a lot less wear than other cars. Brake feel is awsome, but the new car has ABS, dont know if its servo assisted either.

Originally posted by Hanzo
That and the tranny is the only thing that is toyota. What about if you have other problems like electrical an so on.

Where I live on a very isolated island, (slight sarcasm but you get the idea) the way we solve our problems if we drive something that is rare like an Elise is go to the dealers and see which one can fix it. Anything that is technical, the mechanic would call to the dealer that knows how to fix it and we go from there.

Originally posted by babylou
Don't be ridiculous! The Lotus Elise is English designed and built. The old Lucas Electrics ghost has moved to Germany and now haunts BMW, MBZ, and VW-Audi.

LOL.......you may be correct.

From the engine point of view, does 2ZZ-GE offer anything superior to Renesis? Truth is that I own a Celica GTS before, and from its 6K-8K RPM 2nd cam lift is too narrow to be effective. Lotus may have tune the 4K-5K flat power hole, but Renesis still sound more additive and smoother through out the whole range. MR-S Spyder might be a better alternative if someone want to use the 2ZZ-GE effectively.

the dimensions are different, it's designed for a lateral transmission (FWD, and i suppose it's the same backwards with RWD in the Lotus??), it's much better on gas no matter how lean we'll be able to get the 13B-MSP, and is far more familiar to service techs. i'm pretty sure it's a cheaper engine too, if not available in FAR higher production numbers.

but yes, it's taller, heavier, and less powerful.

Originally posted by wakeech
the dimensions are different, it's designed for a lateral transmission (FWD, and i suppose it's the same backwards with RWD in the Lotus??), it's much better on gas no matter how lean we'll be able to get the 13B-MSP, and is far more familiar to service techs. i'm pretty sure it's a cheaper engine too, if not available in FAR higher production numbers.

but yes, it's taller, heavier, and less powerful.

Why on earth do you still think it's heavier? The 2ZZ-GE weights about 50lbs. less than the Renesis if the 302 figure for the renesis is correct, and yes that's dressed weight for the 2ZZ. Also when dynos come out I'd be willing to guess the Elise engine will dyno pretty damn close to what the RX-8 is getting. Also, where's your dimensions showing that it's taller, I'm not saying you're wrong but if you're going to make a claim back it up.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
Why on earth do you still think it's heavier? The 2ZZ-GE weights about 50lbs. less than the Renesis if the 302 figure for the renesis is correct, and yes that's dressed weight for the 2ZZ. Also when dynos come out I'd be willing to guess the Elise engine will dyno pretty damn close to what the RX-8 is getting. Also, where's your dimensions showing that it's taller, I'm not saying you're wrong but if you're going to make a claim back it up.

Ikester,

If you are telling Wakeech to back up his statements with data then you should also. Isn't this reasonable?

I have not seen credible evidence that the 2ZZ-GE only weighs 250 lbs (fully dressed for manny tranny) and would be surpised if it was so since the Honda F20C is a very similar engine and weighs 326 lbs. Can you point me in a direction to collect this data?

Also, it is as obvious as the sky is blue that an I4 engine with DOHC is significantly taller than a Renesis. I recall Mazda's media package for the RX-8 stating the Renesis was 2/3 the height of a DOHC I4. Am I wrong here?

EDIT ALERT:

Aight, I did a bit of research and have garnered the following info from Mazda's RX-8 press kit anda Lotus Elise/Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine site (http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html)

Mazda Renesis Height = 13.3 inches (bottom of oil pan to top of housings)
Toyota 2ZZ-GE Height = 25.9 inches. (that's 2X!)
Toyota 2ZZ-GE Weight = 253 lbs dry (this does not state dressed with accessories)

I doubt the 2ZZ-GE accessories are included the weight because this would be 73 lbs lighter than the Honda F20C. The Honda F20C is of the same displacement, both use aluminum cylinders, have DOHC, have dual cam lift systems and use chain driven cams. From a weight point of view no two engines could be more similar. There is no way in hell Toyota is that much smarter than Honda in terms of engineered weight efficiency.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
Why on earth do you still think it's heavier? The 2ZZ-GE weights about 50lbs. less than the Renesis if the 302 figure for the renesis is correct, and yes that's dressed weight for the 2ZZ. Also when dynos come out I'd be willing to guess the Elise engine will dyno pretty damn close to what the RX-8 is getting. Also, where's your dimensions showing that it's taller, I'm not saying you're wrong but if you're going to make a claim back it up.

The engines in question are almost the same weight and as Ike has said similar power.....the only advantage is height, and perhaps the wonderful sound of the rotary. The big advantage goes to Lotus for the 33 MPG.

The Lotus is the supercar for the people, I think when we all get a chance to drive one and see one in person we may be trading in the RX-8 (mine is on order with Symbolic, 16 on the list now.)

I really like my RX-8, but I think I will love the Lotus.

FYI..... The new Lamborghini Gallardo with 500 HP and all-wheel drive that cost $175,000 goes 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, the little Toyota powered Lotus goes 0-60 in 4.4 seconds. Weight is the enemy in any sports car.

Even when and if we ever get a good super-charger for our RX-8's it will not run 0-60 as fast..........The new Lotus is the king.

Originally posted by Baller
FYI..... The new Lamborghini Gallardo with 500 HP and all-wheel drive that cost $175,000 goes 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, the little Toyota powered Lotus goes 0-60 in 4.4 seconds. Weight is the enemy in any sports car.

Even when and if we ever get a good super-charger for our RX-8's it will not run 0-60 as fast..........The new Lotus is the king.


Glad to see someone know what they are talking about.

Originally posted by babylou


Mazda Renesis Height = 13.3 inches (bottom of oil pan to top of housings)
Toyota 2ZZ-GE Height = 25.9 inches. (that's 2X!)
Toyota 2ZZ-GE Weight = 253 lbs dry (this does not state dressed with accessories)

I doubt the 2ZZ-GE accessories are included the weight because this would be 73 lbs lighter than the Honda F20C. The Honda F20C is of the same displacement, both use aluminum cylinders, have DOHC, have dual cam lift systems and use chain driven cams. From a weight point of view no two engines could be more similar. There is no way in hell Toyota is that much smarter than Honda in terms of engineered weight efficiency.

First, Toyota didn't engineer the engine, Yamaha did. Second, the head and the block are aluminum, that's how it's that much lighter.

I'm trying to fathom how the Renesis is only 13.3 inches high, I've seen it in the car and I just don't see how that's possible, but I'll take your word for it.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
First, Toyota didn't engineer the engine, Yamaha did. Second, the head and the block are aluminum, that's how it's that much lighter.

I'm trying to fathom how the Renesis is only 13.3 inches high, I've seen it in the car and I just don't see how that's possible, but I'll take your word for it.

Toyota engineers or Yamaha engineers. Wupty do or lah dee dah or whatever. I still doubt Yamaha engineers are 73 lbs smarter than Honda engineers. Your aluminum head and block comment is troubling. Did I not already mention that the Honda engine also uses an aluminum block with aluminum cylinders just like the Toyota? When is the last time you saw a current production engine that had a production street car cylinder head made of any material other than aluminum?

You don't need to take my word for the heights. I provided a link for the Toyota engine info and the Mazda RX-8 press kit is available for download on this site. All the data are in these two places. Basically, I did what you cracked on wakeech for not doing but you also did not do. I backed up my statements with proof.

13" must be the undressed height, the N_DAIS/headers will be on top of that surely?

As for which is better for the elise, the super smothe torque curve and acceleration of the renesis its the tops for any car like this.

The elise is all about balance and poise, you have a much better chance of that when the engine has a flat torque curve, instead of a lumpy v-tec 'boost' which you most certainly dont want half way round a corner at v-max.

Oh and the old elise is King. New one is to heavy, but still not a bad car. As for the exirg vs exirg2...

Originally posted by babylou
Toyota engineers or Yamaha engineers. Wupty do or lah dee dah or whatever. I still doubt Yamaha engineers are 73 lbs smarter than Honda engineers. Your aluminum head and block comment is troubling. Did I not already mention that the Honda engine also uses an aluminum block with aluminum cylinders just like the Toyota? When is the last time you saw a current production engine that had a production street car cylinder head made of any material other than aluminum?

You don't need to take my word for the heights. I provided a link for the Toyota engine info and the Mazda RX-8 press kit is available for download on this site. All the data are in these two places. Basically, I did what you cracked on wakeech for not doing but you also did not do. I backed up my statements with proof.

I didn't realize the Hondas have aluminum blocks as well, you just said cylinders. If one follows the other I appologize for my ignorance, I'm not an expert on engine technilogy. Who knows what the real numbers are and why/if the 2ZZ-GE is lighter. It seems all we've managed to prove is that it's almost impossible to come up with the definitive weights for any of these engines we've talked about.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
First, Toyota didn't engineer the engine, Yamaha did. Second, the head and the block are aluminum, that's how it's that much lighter.

I'm trying to fathom how the Renesis is only 13.3 inches high, I've seen it in the car and I just don't see how that's possible, but I'll take your word for it.

I believe the Renesis has a wet-sump lubrication system is only about 1.5 inches deep, half that of the 13B.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
I didn't realize the Hondas have aluminum blocks as well, you just said cylinders. If one follows the other I appologize for my ignorance, I'm not an expert on engine technilogy. Who knows what the real numbers are and why/if the 2ZZ-GE is lighter. It seems all we've managed to prove is that it's almost impossible to come up with the definitive weights for any of these engines we've talked about.

Also remember the numbers you guys see on the spec sheets are dry weight. Depending on the displacement of the engine and other things they might require more oil which means heavier engine when it is actually running.

Subaru short block is about a size of a shoebox without all the piping, intake/exhaust manifold. It is probably smaller than the Renesis housing.

Originally posted by RobDickinson


Oh and the old elise is King. New one is to heavy, but still not a bad car. As for the exirg vs exirg2...

That's because the US version requires all the safety stuff. If you want a light lotus get the Caterham super 7.

http://www.automobile-sportive.com/guide/caterham/super7/superlight.jpg

I would love to own one as a second car.

Originally posted by babylou
Ikester,

I doubt the 2ZZ-GE accessories are included the weight because this would be 73 lbs lighter than the Honda F20C. The Honda F20C is of the same displacement, both use aluminum cylinders, have DOHC, have dual cam lift systems and use chain driven cams. From a weight point of view no two engines could be more similar. There is no way in hell Toyota is that much smarter than Honda in terms of engineered weight efficiency.

I believe when the engine is weight it includes all accessories except for the transmission.

Honda's F20C might be heavier than the 2ZZ due to the extra displacement. Keep in mind that the 2ZZ is a 1.8L.

Originally posted by Hanzo
I believe when the engine is weight it includes all accessories except for the transmission.

Honda's F20C might be heavier than the 2ZZ due to the extra displacement. Keep in mind that the 2ZZ is a 1.8L.

Yup, my bad on the displacements. However, 200 cc does not even come close to 73 lbs. Not close. I'm telling you guys, the 253 lbs is surely without accessories. I just don't have a verified piece of proof to back up my assertion.

Ah the Series II Lotus Elise. Here in the States already? I can already smell the back creme from the rich old men driving this car. Seriously, this car is pretty sweet. One could only imagine how that car drives with the 2ZZ engine. I just asked my dad if he would trade in the 8 for the Elise, and he said "yeah." I then proceeded to bop him with the newspaper and yell, "that's a bad Mr. Kitty!" It's nice sports car, but I personally wouldn't own one. I'll keep my RX-8 until time ends :D .

Hot little car. Emphasis on little! I knew a guy who kept one on his yacht! Most yachties keep scooters for transportation in the islands. A friggin Lotus! Are you kiddin me?
Anyways, it has great looks and would be a nice toy to add to any collection. At 6'2" I couldnt fit in the MR2 cofortably. Doubt this would do us biguns much better.

I LOVE that car! The another good thing about it to is tall drivers fit well in it. You wouldnt think so because of how small the car is, but it can accomodate a 6'3" person no problem. And its packin' 190 whp. This number doesnt sound large, but with such a light body, it makes it really go. The Lotus Elise is gonna be my next car! :cool:

Elise is the only street car I'd give up my FD for at this time, but I can wait for the seller's market to pass or for used ones to come on the market in a year or two. I've wanted a Lotus for most of my life.

Originally posted by Ned M
Elise is the only street car I'd give up my FD for at this time, but I can wait for the seller's market to pass or for used ones to come on the market in a year or two. I've wanted a Lotus for most of my life.

You may be waiting longer then a year or two.

Do what I am doing, Keep your FD and just buy a Lotus. You will have a great long track car and a great short track car to drive as you please when you please.

Originally posted by Gigolo Jason
You may be waiting longer then a year or two.




I'd have to agree with Gigolo- there's a big waiting list already on the Elise- but good luck anyway! I hope we're both wrong and you can actually find a used one in a year or so!

Originally posted by dirtylittlepaws
When the new year started i put up 3 pics of cars i wanted to buy this summer on my office wall. A RX-8, BMW M3 and Lotus Elise. I went with the 8, but wouldn't mind having one of these bad boys. Awesome car

The Lotus is nice... but the TVR Tuscan is Awesome:

Originally posted by Neddie Seagoon
The Lotus is nice... but the TVR Tuscan is Awesome:

TVR's are nice, but they have never been offered in North American and most Americans don't even know they exist.

Originally posted by Gigolo Jason
TVR's are nice, but they have never been offered in North American and most Americans don't even know they exist.

I also fail to see what it has to do with an Elise, besides the fact that they are made in the same country. Awesome cars, but certainly not in the same category as the Elise.

Originally posted by Gigolo Jason


Do what I am doing, Keep your FD and just buy a Lotus. You will have a great long track car and a great short track car to drive as you please when you please. [/B]

I only have room in my heart for one maintenance headache at a time. :)

How about a Series II Lotus Elise powered by the 280 hp 13B-REW or the 247 hp 13B-MSP?

Originally posted by shelleys_man_06
How about a Series II Lotus Elise powered by the 280 hp 13B-REW or the 247 hp 13B-MSP?

If you could somehow mate those engines up to a transversely mounted transmission and find enough space in the engine bay for the 13B-REW's turbos, I think that you'd have one beast of a car on your hands.

Hey that TVR have a straight 6 right?. Seen one in that movie "Swordfish" and in GT for PS2. Me likes it.

Originally posted by Baller
It (Lotus) has modified it, but your right a Toyota dealer might be a good partnership. In Vegas we are getting a Lotus dealer in October, Towbin Rolls Royce, Bentley, that fits also as they have all the cool toys.

Cool, the nearest lotus dealer to us was in AZ or CA. I hope I see these out and about.

Yep the TVR tuscan usses TVR's own straight 6, as every other current TVR uses.

Shame they've had real realiability problems with them, due too poor substandard 3rd party supplied components prety much every straight 6 from 99-02 will need a rebuild.

Love the tuscan, but I'd probbaly go for one of the older v8's

Neither will be coming to the US tho because of emmisions laws.

As for the elise - as I said someone (in Germany) already has a 13b powered S1. And I'm sure theres more than 1.

Sup ALMOST8IT?
You going to the sushi meet?

CLICKY! (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31377)

Originally posted by DOMINION
Sup ALMOST8IT?
You going to the sushi meet?

CLICKY! (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31377)

Can't make it tonight, I have to pick my sister and brother in law up at the airport, they are in for the holiday. I heard that the sushi buffet is excellent, hopefully those that go can confirm this.

I hope to make it next time.

Thanks

Lotus Elise is pretty good, but if 2 200 lbs. guys sat in there, the car would slow down a lot. Haha. That engine is good for that weight, once you put something heavier, a civic will pass you by.

lol, jk.

Anyways, this elise is good, but too expensive. They should have made it at $30K, but it probably would steal all 350z sales. Maybe even few RX8s.

Lotus Elise starts off cheap.

Originally posted by Haris
Lotus Elise is pretty good, but if 2 200 lbs. guys sat in there, the car would slow down a lot. Haha. That engine is good for that weight, once you put something heavier, a civic will pass you by.

lol, jk.

Anyways, this elise is good, but too expensive. They should have made it at $30K, but it probably would steal all 350z sales. Maybe even few RX8s.

What if you have two 200 lbs. guys sat in the civic too? It is all relative.

Originally posted by Haris
Anyways, this elise is good, but too expensive. They should have made it at $30K, but it probably would steal all 350z sales. Maybe even few RX8s.

The manufacturing techniques that they use to keep the Elise's weight under 2000lbs is what drives the price up to $40k. If they used standard techniques and a normal frame, the car could cost ~$30k, but would either weigh in a few hundred pounds more or would sacrifice a lot of chassis rigidity, either of which would probably strip the Elise of its title as the best handling car in the world.

best handling car in the world is correct.

Originally posted by PoorCollegeKid
The manufacturing techniques that they use to keep the Elise's weight under 2000lbs is what drives the price up to $40k. If they used standard techniques and a normal frame, the car could cost ~$30k, but would either weigh in a few hundred pounds more or would sacrifice a lot of chassis rigidity, either of which would probably strip the Elise of its title as the best handling car in the world.

I have a paper published by MIT discussing performance and cost comparisons between body-in-white manufacturing techniques. Believe it or not the extruded aluminum/castings/bonding/riveted method used by Lotus is lowest cost for low production quantities. Only until production reaches 50,000 units per year is the steel unibody lower cost. The reason is the stamping dies for a steel unibody are very expensive.

Originally posted by babylou
I have a paper published by MIT discussing performance and cost comparisons between body-in-white manufacturing techniques. Believe it or not the extruded aluminum/castings/bonding/riveted method used by Lotus is lowest cost for low production quantities. Only until production reaches 50,000 units per year is the steel unibody lower cost. The reason is the stamping dies for a steel unibody are very expensive.

Did the production costs include price of materials used, or just the actual cost of production? If it includes the price of the more-expensive aluminum, then I retract my previous statement. Low volume probably contributes quite a bit to the added cost (as engineering and research costs are spread between a very small number of vehicles), but I was under the impression that the rather unique aluminum frame was the reason for the price increase. I know that Chevy was looking at putting out an aluminum-framed Corvette but that would drive the price up higher than they wanted it to, so they scrapped the idea for the C6 and, supposedly, the C6 Z06.

Edit: Here (http://msl1.mit.edu/hoog3.pdf), I believe, is the report mentioned above. It does not address the Elise or Lotus in particular, but rather steel vs. aluminum vs. composites for use in body frames in general. A certain technique for producing aluminum bodies for cars is more cost effective than steel for low volume (see page 19 of the report), but for higher volume cars, the lower production costs of steel bodies after the initial investment makes steel the cheapest way to go. This is why Chevy, which produces many, many Corvettes every generation, was reluctant to make a large number of aluminum-bodied Corvettes. Stamping and die casting are both relatively expensive ways to shape aluminum, but extrusion is apparently a very cheap method. Looks like my previous assumption was wrong, after all. Thanks to babylou for pointing out my error.

Originally posted by PoorCollegeKid
Looks like my previous assumption was wrong, after all. Thanks to babylou for pointing out my error.

Watch out now. Typically on this site I am branded an a-hole. Good find on the MIT paper. Since you're a "PoorCollegeKid" and live in Cambridge, MA I'm guessing you're an MIT student? Maybe that's how you found the paper?

Originally posted by babylou
Watch out now. Typically on this site I am branded an a-hole. Good find on the MIT paper. Since you're a "PoorCollegeKid" and live in Cambridge, MA I'm guessing you're an MIT student? Maybe that's how you found the paper?

An a-hole, eh? If you correct most people the way that you corrected me, it sounds like some people just have ego problems. I can admit it when I'm wrong (God knows it happens often enough) and I'm always happy to learn something new. As for finding the paper, I just went to MIT's website and searched for the paper, so although I am a student there, it had little to do with finding the source you referenced. The knowledge that pretty much everything that has had anything to do with the Institute since the late '80s is on that website somewhere did lead me there, though... ;)

Just picked her up tonight, great car.

Woah, you did? Pictures!!! I demand pictures!!! :-)

I will post them soon. There will probably also be pictures of it at the next Houston Club meeting.

I'll anoxiously awaiting. :) What color did you get? Sport or Luxury package?

So now you have an RX-7 and an Elise? Talk about a kick ass garage.

Yes 1950lbs, powered by a tuned Toyota Celica motor. But, 40k??? :(

Its much faster than the 8 in almost all areas.

Its much faster than the 8 in almost all areas.

There's no almost about it, the 8 doesn't compare in any performance category to the Elise. And yes... pics would be nice :)

looks like a locust

Well I am in Seventh Heaven.

I picked up a saffron yellow Elise 2/3/05 from Lotus of Atlanta to keep my TitGrey Rx8 and H2 company.

It is really a treat to have under one roof. So different, but each so unique. The elise is the flashy, but no frills, pure sports car -- the Rx8 is in my opinion the best sports-tourer on the road (leather, Navi, sunroof, back seats, power everything, etc). I have reached my car goal for my life I think . . .

I a perfect world I wish I could have the interior and rotary engine of the Rx8 into the chasis and body of the lotus.

In case people ask:

Rx8 - $33,000
Lotus - $44,000
H2 - $55,000

Take some pictures of the trunk (I mean the lack thereof) My best friend has a silver, We opened his trunk and noticed a Glow in the dark excape latch. Not even a midget could fit in the trunk.

If you care about the size of the trunk on an Elise then you just don't get it, and you probably never will...

If you care about the size of the trunk on an Elise then you just don't get it, and you probably never will...
I can deal with the size of the trunk, but the absence of "Big Gulp" size cupholders was a deal breaker for me. :)

I can deal with the size of the trunk, but the absence of "Big Gulp" size cupholders was a deal breaker for me. :)

Yeah, that's a tough one ;)

The trunk is small no doubt, but it is deceptive. Unlike the rx8's trunk and most other cars on the road, you open the trunk and place things in and back -- with the Lotus you place them in and them TOWARDS you. There is almost 6 cubic feet of "boot" space if you place something in and then slide it TOWARDS the back of the car instead of the usual sliding of something INTO the car towards the seats.

Anyway, I have trunk space in my H2. I think I have the perfect trio right now

H2 - Wife, kids, car seats, strollers, luggage, etc or me and all the guys out on the town. The coolest minivan in town. comfortable, rugged. great for long distance drives and as a true SUV (beach, cruising, nightlife, shopping, mountains, long distance, nature stuff)

Rx9 - Still fits wife and 2 kids. Ultimate sports luxury. Navi, sunroof, power everything, excellent audio, big trunk . . . still cool with the suicide doors. My kids are 14months and 4 yrs old and this is perfect. All the performance I get and excellent cornering and gear box is a bonus.

Elise - Pure sports car, 2 seater, MY signature CAR, convertible, sexiest thing on the road right now.


I just don't see any drawbacks in this trio. Even cost of ownership-- free scheduled maintenance for the rx8 evens out the inconvenient and pricey Eilse. the 48month warranty evens out the 36month of the other two. No loaner car from Mazda? No problem I can get any car when I drop off the Lotus or H2. . . mileage sucks in the rx8, but is much better in the Lotus. The H2 is much maligned for shitty gas mileage (around 12), but it is the cheap regular gas and is the cheapest lux large SUV to service etc (see Yukon, Escalade, etc). . . I am just so damn happy right now.

Anyway, I have trunk space in my H2. I think I have the perfect trio right now

All 4 cubic feet of it with the spare back there. Incidentally, that is less than half the trunk space of a kia rio :p :D

I never put the spare inside the truck -- if you blow one of these tires, you ain't changing it yourself -- it is going to get done professionally and I am going to pay for a new tire. Long rides, it can be fitted to the back . . . not sure where you got 4cubic feet or kia or whatever, but remember the H2 is so boxy that you can almost stand in it.


ANYWAY, BACK TO THE RX8!!!!!!!!!!

I got that from a review of the H2 where they measured the trunk room (i.e with third row in place) 4 cf is what they got.

While it might be boxy, at 6'0, I cannot even stand under the tailgate when open, I have to duck.

ANYWAY, BACK TO THE RX8!!!!!!!!!!

the front is still ugly as hell but the back is sweet

seriously though you stick a fat passenger in there and the car slows down big time! and turns to the right!

Here is a pic. It't not a very good one becasue it was over cast and was taken with a camera phone, but you get the jist of it.

If you want to go for the most hardcore of British sports cars,this is the one to chose...

Caterham CSR (http://www.caterham.co.uk/showroom/sevens/csr.htm)

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42229&stc=1

Only if it's an original.

the front is still ugly as hell but the back is sweet

seriously though you stick a fat passenger in there and the car slows down big time! and turns to the right!

And precicely WHY would one stick a fat passenger in a svelte beauty such as this?

And precicely WHY would one stick a fat passenger in a svelte beauty such as this?

well you take your wife with you on trips don't you? :rolleyes:

If you care about the size of the trunk on an Elise then you just don't get it, and you probably never will...

Haha no that wasn't the point either. My friend has an M3 as well. He didn't care about the size of the trunk, he just wanted a pure bred sports car. the point was.. Why even bother having a Glow in the dark escape latch, when you can't fit a person who would be able to operate it inside of the trunk? It probably boils down to some law that was passed because of car jackings, but if you saw the thing you would realize it was funny. :D

Haha no that wasn't the point either. My friend has an M3 as well. He didn't care about the size of the trunk, he just wanted a pure bred sports car. the point was.. Why even bother having a Glow in the dark escape latch, when you can't fit a person who would be able to operate it inside of the trunk? It probably boils down to some law that was passed because of car jackings, but if you saw the thing you would realize it was funny. :D


Ahhhh I know what you're talkign about now... Sorry about to confusion, that's pretty funny. Maybe if Gary Coleman owned an Elise it would be useful ;)

I think Lotus should look into using the renesis as an engine. Wouldn't that be something. A 2000lb car with 238hp. Imagine how fast the rx8 would be if it weighed 1000lbs less. Scary thought.

I think Lotus should look into using the renesis as an engine. Wouldn't that be something. A 2000lb car with 238hp. Imagine how fast the rx8 would be if it weighed 1000lbs less. Scary thought.

if it weighed 1000 less it would start to drive like the Mazda racecar in the commercials :) sweet

Here is a pic. It't not a very good one becasue it was over cast and was taken with a camera phone, but you get the jist of it.Great color choice! :)

Hey Gigolo Jason, how's the ride? From what I've read, the ride seems to be the cars only draw back. Been toying with the idea of getting one too. But we've got some really crappy roads in Honolulu, due to some heavy rain over the past few years. Pot holes all over the place, wonder how the Elise would handle 'em.

If you want to go for the most hardcore of British sports cars,this is the one to chose...

Caterham CSR (http://www.caterham.co.uk/showroom/sevens/csr.htm)

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42229&stc=1


One of my friends had two of the original Morgans, but sold one. They are extremely light, but I don't know if I would want to drive in something with a WOOD frame, plus have to worry about protecting it from termites and rot :eek:

I think Lotus should look into using the renesis as an engine. Wouldn't that be something. A 2000lb car with 238hp. Imagine how fast the rx8 would be if it weighed 1000lbs less. Scary thought.

The toyota engine weighs less than the renesis, also, when dynoed they're making about the same amount of hp to the wheels as RX-8s are.

I will take this one please.

I will take this one please.

which one is that?

I've wonder this before -- what it that roof scoop for?

Thats the Sport Exige model. Doesn't get much better.
That roof scoop feeds the engine in a similar manner to an f1 car.

photos and article:
http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/lotus_sport_exige.htm

which one is that?

It is the Lotus Sport Exige

The Lotus Sport Exige, developed by Lotus Sport is a direct motorsport derivative of the successful Lotus Exige.

The Lotus designed and engineered racecar uses the latest motorsport techniques and procedures to produce a lightweight yet strong carbon-fibre bodywork structure around the standard road-going Lotus Exige Aluminium extruded and bonded chassis.

Lotus Sport designed a fully adjustable suspension system with double wishbones all round. Power is provided by a 400hp, 3 litre, V6 racing engine linked to sequential six-speed gearbox.

As the Lotus Sport Exige is, at present, a one-off racecar, a price cannot be given for the racecar package.

looks like a flattop mohawk

probability of someone adding a hood scoop to their 8? about 95% by the end of the year :p

My favourite are the front engined cars with roof scoops on them that don't go anywhere.
Someone should get this for their 8, it would make a lot of sense.
http://www.ptcruisers.ca/CWimages/scoop5_th.jpg

My favourite are the front engined cars with roof scoops on them that don't go anywhere.
Someone should get this for their 8, it would make a lot of sense.


If you put something like that on your 8,you need to cool down your brain and then it really makes sense:)

A car club friend has an elise. I could barely get into it, and getting out of the thing was rather comical. I think I pulled a neck muscle contorting myself so I could climb out. Definitely not the car for me. Guy with the Elise loved my new RX8 and marvelled at all of the interior room.

The toyota engine weighs less than the renesis, also, when dynoed they're making about the same amount of hp to the wheels as RX-8s are.Ike - your posts are becoming so predictable. You never miss a chance to try and slam the RENESIS’s hp. But this time, your statements are unfounded.

First, how do you know how much the RX-8's engine or the Celica/Elise’s engine weighs to know one is lighter than the other?

Second, your statement would imply that the Celica & Elise have almost zero drivetrain loss in putting power to the wheels. The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise. RX-8s are rated at 238 hp (US)/250 ps (JDM) and most US models dyno stock at the wheels between 180-190hp. There’s now a post of a stock 8's documented dyno run of 206 hp at the wheels. Unhindered by the ECU, we know the RENESIS can put out the power, as it does in the Star Mazda series.

Finally, the Celica GTS weighs 500 lbs less than the RX-8, but takes over 7 seconds to hit 0-60, while the RX-8 has been tested at 5.9-6.1 secs. (And before you think about mentioning pre-production cars tests, the most current tests in MT and R&T were done with full production vehicles.)

So your math just doesn't seem to add up.

The elise is a gorgeous sports car. My only complaint about the elise is actually more circumstantial than anything. I have size 12-13 feet. I cannot drive that car with my shoes on because the footwell is so small and the pedals are so close together.. yea.. I have big feet, but they could've designed it just slightly larger so I could fit my shoes in there :b

I guess I'll have to invest in some driving shoes.

very good point...ike just loves to piss and moan

Ike - your posts are becoming so predictable. You never miss a chance to try and slam the RENESIS’s hp. But this time, your statements are unfounded.

First, how do you know how much the RX-8's engine or the Celica/Elise’s engine weighs to know one is lighter than the other?

Second, your statement would imply that the Celica & Elise have almost zero drivetrain loss in putting power to the wheels. The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise. RX-8s are rated at 238 hp (US)/250 ps (JDM) and most US models dyno stock at the wheels between 180-190hp. There’s now a post of a stock 8's documented dyno run of 206 hp at the wheels. Unhindered by the ECU, we know the RENESIS can put out the power, as it does in the Star Mazda series.

Finally, the Celica GTS weighs 500 lbs less than the RX-8, but takes over 7 seconds to hit 0-60, while the RX-8 has been tested at 5.9-6.1 secs. (And before you think about mentioning pre-production cars tests, the most current tests in MT and R&T were done with full production vehicles.)

So your math just doesn't seem to add up.

I know that the 2zz-ge engine is one of the lightest out there, ~120kg I think. I can't for the life of me find a renesis engine weight, or any 13B for that matter. As well, the GT-S' engine has 180 hp vs the 190 being made in the lotus. Also, the lotus got rid of the power dip at cam changeover and strengthened the torque curve of the engine. I wish I could find some info on the renisis weight, why is this so hard!!

EDIT: Reading through this thread I found a couple instances where the renesis was claimed to weight ~130 kg and 115kg for the elise engine.

I know that the 2zz-ge engine is one of the lightest out there, ~120kg I think. I can't for the life of me find a renesis engine weight, or any 13B for that matter. As well, the GT-S' engine has 180 hp vs the 190 being made in the lotus. Also, the lotus got rid of the power dip at cam changeover and strengthened the torque curve of the engine. I wish I could find some info on the renisis weight, why is this so hard!!

EDIT: Reading through this thread I found a couple instances where the renesis was claimed to weight ~130 kg and 115kg for the elise engine.

I am quite sure the 115 kg weight of the Toyota 2zz-ge engine is without ancillaries. This 115 kg weight was mentioned in an SAE paper that I cannot find at the moment. Fully dressed the 2zz-ge would be ~130 kg. The 130 kg for the Renesis is fully dressed.

I am quite sure the 115 kg weight of the Toyota 2zz-ge engine is without ancillaries. This 115 kg weight was mentioned in an SAE paper that I cannot find at the moment. Fully dressed the 2zz-ge would be ~130 kg. The 130 kg for the Renesis is fully dressed.

yes you are right...they are virtually the same weight

the renesis would be the much better choice in the vehicle...ESPECIALLY with some basic tuning since several 8s dyno much higher than 190whp

in fact some do over 200whp...without tuning just simple variations, imagine with tuning

the lotus would kick ass with the renesis in it

Ike - your posts are becoming so predictable. You never miss a chance to try and slam the RENESIS’s hp. But this time, your statements are unfounded.

First, how do you know how much the RX-8's engine or the Celica/Elise’s engine weighs to know one is lighter than the other?

Second, your statement would imply that the Celica & Elise have almost zero drivetrain loss in putting power to the wheels. The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise. RX-8s are rated at 238 hp (US)/250 ps (JDM) and most US models dyno stock at the wheels between 180-190hp. There’s now a post of a stock 8's documented dyno run of 206 hp at the wheels. Unhindered by the ECU, we know the RENESIS can put out the power, as it does in the Star Mazda series.

Finally, the Celica GTS weighs 500 lbs less than the RX-8, but takes over 7 seconds to hit 0-60, while the RX-8 has been tested at 5.9-6.1 secs. (And before you think about mentioning pre-production cars tests, the most current tests in MT and R&T were done with full production vehicles.)

So your math just doesn't seem to add up.

I'm hardly slamming the renesis, so stop being so damn sensitive.

1.) There was a thread a while back and the numbers we came up with showed the Renesis being a little heavier than the 2ZZ. In fact it was discussed earlier in this thread and there are a few articles that claim the Celica engine to be anywhere from 246-253lbs, whereas the Renesis numbers I've seen range from 275-302lbs, the difference in numbers is probably a the difference of some fluids.

2.) The few Elise dynoes I have seen put the Elise at 165-170whp which is about the same as the RX-8, just like I said. My statement hardly implies that there is nearly zero drivetrain loss in the Elise, but does imply that the Elise is a little underrated and the RX-8 a little overrated. Keep in mind the Elise dynos are on brand new cars and are also most of the ones I've seen were Cali cars done with 91 octane (not sure if it would really make a difference). Many of the first RX-8 dynos runs were in the 160-175 range. Sure, one guy with a freak car just broke 200whp on a dyno but that's the only time anyone has even come close to doing so let alone actually doing it. Disclaimer: yes I think the Renesis puts out more power than the Elise engine, but it's not much more.

3.) The Celica GTS is very capable of running mid 6s 0-60 and very low 15s in the 1/4 while trapping NEARLY what an RX-8 can. Most of the faster ones are the MY00 due to a few minor tweaks they made later in the Celicas life. You're also comparing FWD and RWD cars 0-60 times which is pretty useless for determining power.

4.) The point of this is the the 2ZZ is a very good engine for the Elise and I don't see how a Renesis would be any better. Did I forget to mention you can get 30+mpg with the 2ZZ, plus the reliability of a Toyota engine in addition to it being much easier to find someone experienced with the innerworkings of the engine? I was hardly slamming the Renesis, simple pointing out that the Elise doesn't necessarily become a better car once you put a Renesis in it.

5.) Truemagellen, easy with the exagerations there man. Show me more than one RX-8 that has dynoed over 200whp, or even more than a couple that have dynoed over 190whp in stock form.

I personally think Ike's posts are for the most part accurate and truthful. They can also be debateable at times as well. I understand though that many people on here take it as bashing, and do not want to hear it. It's good to have an objective view on cars that Ike brings to table, even if many of us can't handle the objective criticism. Just my .02 :)

I'm hardly slamming the renesis, so stop being so damn sensitive.

1.) There was a thread a while back and the numbers we came up with showed the Renesis being a little heavier than the 2ZZ. In fact it was discussed earlier in this thread and there are a few articles that claim the Celica engine to be anywhere from 246-253lbs, whereas the Renesis numbers I've seen range from 275-302lbs, the difference in numbers is probably a the difference of some fluids.

2.) The few Elise dynoes I have seen put the Elise at 165-170whp which is about the same as the RX-8, just like I said. My statement hardly implies that there is nearly zero drivetrain loss in the Elise, but does imply that the Elise is a little underrated and the RX-8 a little overrated. Keep in mind the Elise dynos are on brand new cars and are also most of the ones I've seen were Cali cars done with 91 octane (not sure if it would really make a difference). Many of the first RX-8 dynos runs were in the 160-175 range. Sure, one guy with a freak car just broke 200whp on a dyno but that's the only time anyone has even come close to doing so let alone actually doing it. Disclaimer: yes I think the Renesis puts out more power than the Elise engine, but it's not much more.

3.) The Celica GTS is very capable of running mid 6s 0-60 and very low 15s in the 1/4 while trapping NEARLY what an RX-8 can. Most of the faster ones are the MY00 due to a few minor tweaks they made later in the Celicas life. You're also comparing FWD and RWD cars 0-60 times which is pretty useless for determining power.

4.) The point of this is the the 2ZZ is a very good engine for the Elise and I don't see how a Renesis would be any better. Did I forget to mention you can get 30+mpg with the 2ZZ, plus the reliability of a Toyota engine in addition to it being much easier to find someone experienced with the innerworkings of the engine? I was hardly slamming the Renesis, simple pointing out that the Elise doesn't necessarily become a better car once you put a Renesis in it.

5.) Truemagellen, easy with the exagerations there man. Show me more than one RX-8 that has dynoed over 200whp, or even more than a couple that have dynoed over 190whp in stock form.Ike - I'm as open minded as the next guy, but yes, I'm a little tired of seeing your relentless crusade in this area of the RX-8’s hp. A post every now and then, no problem. But every post that has anything at all to do with hp and you're there talking smack. It’s your cumulative slanted remarks about hp that have grown really old. But hey, it's a free country.

In this particular response, as ever you're slanting things and using biased info. As an example, the dyno figures you’ve taken are the low end ones for the RX-8. Furthermore, it’s unclear where you get your data points from. For the most part, it seems to be based on internet hearsay rather than legitimate sources.

My data points come from established magazines:

- Sport Car Compact has published dynoing the RX-8 at 188 hp at the wheels.
- MotorTrend tested a production RX-8 at 0-60 in 6.0 secs & 1/4 mile at 14.5 secs
- Road&Track got near identical results to what MT did with another production RX-8
- Car and Driver tested the TRD Celica at 0-60 in 7.5 secs & 1/4 mile at 15.7 secs
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=39&article_id=3269&page_number=1
- Road&Track tested the Celica GTS and got a better 0-60 time of 6.8 secs

Show me legitimate evidence for your claims and I’ll say you’re right. Frankly, I have no idea what either engine weighs. But again, I’d like to see some credible proof points rather than hearsay from internet forums.

Ike - I'm as open minded as the next guy, but yes, I'm a little tired of seeing your relentless crusade in this area of the RX-8’s hp. A post every now and then, no problem. But every post that has anything at all to do with hp and you're there talking smack. It’s your cumulative slanted remarks about hp that have grown really old. But hey, it's a free country.

In this particular response, as ever you're slanting things and using biased info. As an example, the dyno figures you’ve taken are the low end ones for the RX-8. Furthermore, it’s unclear where you get your data points from. For the most part, it seems to be based on internet hearsay rather than legitimate sources.

My data points come from established magazines:

- Sport Car Compact has published dynoing the RX-8 at 188 hp at the wheels.
- MotorTrend tested a production RX-8 at 0-60 in 6.0 secs & 1/4 mile at 14.5 secs
- Road&Track got near identical results to what MT did with another production RX-8
- Car and Driver tested the TRD Celica at 0-60 in 7.5 secs & 1/4 mile at 15.7 secs
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=39&article_id=3269&page_number=1
- Road&Track tested the Celica GTS and got a better 0-60 time of 6.8 secs

Show me legitimate evidence for your claims and I’ll say you’re right. Frankly, I have no idea what either engine weighs. But again, I’d like to see some credible proof points rather than hearsay from internet forums.


I"m heading to bed but here's a ling showing the dry weight of the 2ZZ-GE
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html

Here's something to read while you wait in anticipation of my full post tomorrow
http://www.diasio.com/d962r.html

Oh, and this one is for the people that have called BS when I've said the Renesis was originally targeted to have around 280hp.
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=Renesis+dry+weight/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=7/IPC=us/SHE=0/H=2/SIG=14269kadt/EXP=1109670117/**http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.mazda.ch%2Fsalons%2FTokyo%252 099%2FRENESIS%2520GB.pdf%23search%3D%27Renesis%20d ry%20weight%27

Til tomorrow,
Ike

The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise.


The Euro Toyota Celica TS(T-Sport) is rated 192 hp.
I believe it is this engine the Elise has got.

I think they got the 180 hp model but then tuned it themselves to reach the 190 rather than getting the euro version.

I"m heading to bed but here's a ling showing the dry weight of the 2ZZ-GE
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html

Here's something to read while you wait in anticipation of my full post tomorrow
http://www.diasio.com/d962r.html

Oh, and this one is for the people that have called BS when I've said the Renesis was originally targeted to have around 280hp.
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=Renesis+dry+weight/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=7/IPC=us/SHE=0/H=2/SIG=14269kadt/EXP=1109670117/**http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.mazda.ch%2Fsalons%2FTokyo%252 099%2FRENESIS%2520GB.pdf%23search%3D%27Renesis%20d ry%20weight%27

Til tomorrow,
IkeVery informative links. Thanks.

But remember you were implying that the Toyota engine weighs less while producing about the same power as the Renesis. I haven’t found anything in these links that clearly supports that. If anything, the second link implies the Renesis has even greater power potential. The third link didn’t work for me.

I think they got the 180 hp model but then tuned it themselves to reach the 190 rather than getting the euro version.

It's hard to understand why a english producer picks an american version of the engine and tune it instead of taking the stock european..
By the way.I checked and in DIN-hp both the Lotus and the Celica are 192 hp in Europe.Some places I find 189 and 190 for the Lotus.. Some places 190 for the Celica.

If it made sense for Toyota to detune the 2ZZGE for NA markets, it would make sense for Lotus to use that engine in NA markets I suppose.
I found this:
...However Lotus has retuned the 2ZZ-GE for use in Elise, smoothing out the torque dip at the 6000 rpm cam changeover point and strengthening the torque in the other rpm ranges. In addition to the improved torque Lotus brought the peak horsepower back up to 190 in their U.S. version of the engine.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html

If it made sense for Toyota to detune the 2ZZGE for NA markets, it would make sense for Lotus to use that engine in NA markets I suppose.
I found this:



I found the same link:)

I guess that explains it.
The Celica engine is less hp in NA to meet emission standards.

Very informative links. Thanks.

But remember you were implying that the Toyota engine weighs less while producing about the same power as the Renesis. I haven’t found anything in these links that clearly supports that. If anything, the second link implies the Renesis has even greater power potential. The third link didn’t work for me.

Ugh, can you just take my word that the Elise dynos at 165-170whp, I really don't want to go digging through multiple links and sites to find a dyno... Yes the Renesis has more power, and I've never said otherwise, but it's not much. My only real point in this whole thing is that the 2ZZ-GE is a very good engine for the Elise and that the Renesis wouldn't necessarily make it a better car.

Pros for the 2ZZ-GE:
Very light
High Revving
Good fuel economy
Reliable and proven
Easier to get serviced
No emissions problems
No need for Elise to teach their techs how to work on Rotaries
Easier to produce and more plentiful supply

It's a very good match for the Elise and IMO a better one than the Renesis for a couple of the reasons pointed out above. The Renesis is a great and unique engine, but it does have its drawbacks.

P.S. The 3rd link is a PDF file of a Mazda press release about their 280ps renesis, it's pretty ineteresting. You should easily be able to find it on a yahoo search, not sure why my link didn't work, maybe it's just too long.

I just happened to be reading a thread on a turbo elise with dyno plots. turbo vs stock. 166 whp stock

Ugh, can you just take my word that the Elise dynos at 165-170whp, I really don't want to go digging through multiple links and sites to find a dyno... Yes the Renesis has more power, and I've never said otherwise, but it's not much. My only real point in this whole thing is that the 2ZZ-GE is a very good engine for the Elise and that the Renesis wouldn't necessarily make it a better car.I agree that the 2ZZ-GE is a good engine for the Elise. In fact, I'm strongly tempted to buy one, having recently gone for a test drive. The weight or power of the 2ZZ-GE was never my point of contention. But to say the Renesis is only capable of 165-170 hp at the wheels is an exaggeration. (It maybe true in some cases, but certainly not all.)



What follows has nothing to do with Ike or this thread. I just need to get on my soap box…

The power output of the Renesis has been dragged through the mud and beaten to death. Why? Because of the dyno results. But these have been all over the map, from the lows of 165 hp to the highs of 206 hp at the wheels. So it’s a highly debated topic.

However, there are many articles that state why dynos may not be accurate and should be used mainly as a relative gage for performance upgrades. There are so many variables, so many unknowns, and so many myths, that nobody should trust the dyno results shown on any internet site as an accurate gage of true power. The fact that the RX-8 dyno results have been so wildly inconsistent tells you something just isn’t right with many of these dyno runs.

I really doubt that Mazda builds these engines with such a wide variance in output. The proof is in the performance. In 2003, R&T and Car&Driver tested pre-production models and got identical times for 0-60 and ¼ mi., 5.9 secs and 14.5 secs. Then in 2004, MotorTrend tested a production base model 6spd, got 6.0 secs and 14.5 secs. R&T tested a production GT 6spd, got 6.1 secs and 14.6 secs. (The added weight of the GT is probably the reason for it being a tenth slower). Four different tests, four different cars, and the results are extremely close. I’ve not ever noticed another vehicle to test so consistently in the big 3 US auto mags; there’s usually a variance of around 0.3-0.6 secs in one mag’s test vs. another.

These performance results are so consistent, that it makes the dyno results irrelevant. The wide range of dyno results just can’t be taken with any level confidence.

There, I’ve said my peace. I’ll say nothing more on this topic. (At least not in this thread)

…off of soap box

So I saw an Elise at a local dealer (there are about 30 in the US) and saw the sticker price and said 'what am I doing driving a Mazda'. As it happened the dealer had a racing green with touring package and hard top AVAILABLE due to some guy showing up without any $$. I was figuring out how to ditch my 8 and put a deposit on this honey - the best looking car out there if you like racing curves IMHO. Then I drove it.

Cons:
I'm short and it's really tough to get in and out of.
Seats are like rocks - now way you stay in that car for more than an hour at a time.
Radio is a joke - easy to fix though as it's a standard size unlike the 8.

Pros:
Fast - small engine likes to be revved. I only took it up to 6K in deference to it's need to be broken in and it flew.
Very responsive
Gear box is so tight that it almosts anticipates shifts - puts the 8 to shame
Toyota in line 4 will be reliable - great idea - who wants to mess with some limited edition British engine?

Bottom line for me was that although the Elise was a blast to drive, it is not a daily ride. I drove the 8 for 3 days straight and was never uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable after 20 minutes in the Elise. Great car for the track.

I'm keeping my 8.