Look, I know I get upset at times about the G35/350Z and others that come to this board and immediately begin the conversations that the RX-8 needs more torque. At most points I think I come across like I don't want more! No, really... I do.

However.. The conventional knowledge is that a piston engine gives you XXX more torque, more horsepower etc. And from this limited knowledge about rotaries people come to this board saying the RX-8's engine is inferior, and it's not only on this board.. many boards.

First let's discuss something -- most people buying the RX-8 are registered on this forum. This in turns shows they have an aptitude to be educated about what they are buying, and this in turn means they would be educated about rotary engines to a limited degree.

So I think that when we compare the RX-8 to the 350Z we are really making the RX-8 a virtual RX-7 since such an animal does not yet exist. I liked the RX-8/G35 Coupe comparison, as I felt it was the most appropriate. I wished they'd have lumped the 330Ci into that grouping as well though, as it would have made for a much better comparison.

I think most RX-8 buyers UNDERSTAND that the RX-8 isn't the RX-7. That's what makes it so appealing. Four doors, with good seating capacity, in an attractice looking package and an even more attractive price make this car perfect. I appreciate reading Skyline Maniac's recent comments about the RX-8 as compared to the RX-7 as I think some of the confusion and also concerns come about. The RX-8 wasn't meant to 'race' but it's definately meant to compete. The idea I think, that Mazda had, is to go back to its roots and support the enthusiasts that loved them for so many years. This means making a halo car in the RX-8 that would add the practicality lost by the RX-7 design, as well as garnering higher sales for the sports car market as a stepping stone for the RX-7, as well as a reintroduction of the rotary.

Ideally it comes to this: most people want more power. I do too! I love power! But power comes at a price, and generally that is WEIGHT. As weighed by C&D, the RX-8 comes in at 2940 lbs. And as per their review as well, the RX-8 outhandles, out brakes, and is more fun to drive due to the lower weight. So it's a tradeoff...

Would you rather have the reasonable power to let you compete, and have more fun in the back roads... or would you rather have the power to win and lose the fun?

For me it's the former. Lots others here too. If it's not your choice that's fine.. the G35 Coupe is a very attractive car as well.

Hope I cleared up the misapprehensions people have about me... it seems I'm punching everybody in the face and running away :p

people will shut up when the 4th generation RX-7 come out (if it comes out) with the 4th generation rx-7 having 280-330 hp it will probalby have enough tourque to satisfy idiots who keep complaining.
one question to ask did mazda say anything about the tourque of the RX-8?

Well said Herc. I'll second that.... :cool:

me too Herc! :)

me too

Well said.
Hopefully this will stop all the unnecessary posts about the rx8's torque of lack there of.

Originally posted by cueball1029
Well said.
Hopefully this will stop all the unnecessary posts about the rx8's torque of lack there of. I doubt that.

Trolls will continue to be trolls... Just reading at the FreshAlloy forums makes me happy that a lot of those guys have not wafted over here :)

word...

the rx-7 is going to be such a beast. id love to see it set the new record in the slalom too, thatd be soooooooo gross lol.
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I totally agree Herc, well said.

I have not even considered a 350Z and would not even consider the next RX-7. It's not that I wouldn't love to have either of these cars -- five years ago. I now have a young family and cannot justify the expense of a vehicle that would be a selfish purchase. If the three of us can not go somewhere in the same vehicle at the same time, it would be pretty impractical. We even sold the Jaguar XJ-S we had when our son was born because it was too impractical; and it even had a back seat.

I have no delusions about the RX-8 being the second coming of the McLaren. I do belive it will be 9/10ths as sporty as the 350Z and the RX-7 in a four-door, four-seater package. That will be plenty for me.

I want the RX-8 to have more torque but I don't want it to change the character of the car. I just want more power to go faster I still want it in the same places. Just more. I also would like lower rear end ratio to make more of the gearing with the additonal power. One other though why should we have to do with less power. Just remember this don't change the character of the RX-8.

agreed.


The G35 coupe and the RX-8 are very different cars. their market segment is similar, yet they are completely different vehicles in intent and implementation.

i agree with herc completely...
and one other thing, i believe the tunablility of the car should always be a factor in buying it. I know a lot of people on thie forum have tuned their cars, and there seems to be a lot of talk about the rx-8 and in the aftermarket supporters in japan. i believe that the rx-8's weaknesses can be easily made up with some moderate tuning. i'm not being too biased or optimistic in this statement... if it weren't for aftermaket support, the majority of the japanese cars that have become "legends" wouldn't have.

Hercules:

When are you going to get it? If you are going to reply to my posts, then reply to my posts in the other threads. You are so stuck up on this 'I got enough torque' topic that anytime someone post 'could use some more torque' you get so defensive like the ugly girl in the elementary school. You insist on comparing the RX8 to other cars like the Z, G35C, 330ci or whatever, but you don't seem to be able to look at a car for what it is. Like I said before, even without the Z, G35C, and 330ci, the RX8 STILL could benefit from more torque. Don't be ignorant and assume the torque on the RX8 is already perfect. The only reason people complain about the low torque figure is because we all know the rotary engine has much more potential than the NA Renesis, and we are upset Mazda is not willing to dig deeper for more power on this new rotary. No one would be complaining if we believed the Renesis is already operating at its limits~ The RX8 just began production last month. Mazda will gauge public response in the products they sell and make modifications in the future accordingly. If 80% of the buyers wishes for more torque, the chance is that Mazda will put some R&D money into the Renesis to get more torqure out of the Renesis However, if ya'll going to sit around all day and say 'hey~ torque is useless and we don't need any' then Mazda will never have the desire upgrade the Renesis for the RX8.

Secondly, you seem to be accusing people of being trolls base on two things: 1) The type of car they drive and 2) The mention of the word 'torque.' When people talked about the cheezy interior of the G35, you don't see me throwing accusations around and claim 'we don't need better interiors' No, because to a extend that is true, but if you havn't seen the car or sat inside, you really have no clue what you are talking about. But, who cares about the 350Z or the G35C, this is the RX8 forum and I sure as heck didn't come here to talk about these cars. So PLEAZZ! can we just stop talking about the G35C, the 350Z or the BMW. Discounting my honest opinions base on the car I own - that is just ignorance.

If you have to call everyone who doesn't own a RX8 a troll, then I suppose you are accusing everyone here as trolls since nobody has a RX8 yet. You keep claiming the RX8 is 'fun to drive' and 'doesn't need more torque' yet you havn't driven one, so you are basing all your imaginations on magazine articles. You claim the Mazda interior is luxurious, yet you havn't sat in a production RX8, listen to the noise or felt the road on the RX8.Until the RX8 shows up and you drive it, you really have no idea what it's like. So before you start telling people which car is base on which car because of so and so~ at least wait to drive the RX8 and its 'competitors' first. Until then, all your comments are merely your own rendition of recycled magazine articles. If you have already made up your mind to get the RX-8 then there is absolutely no need to be defensive.

well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skyline you're one ignorant person.

Let's start:

First, you have NO IDEA how a rotary engine works. The torque in a rotary engine is ALWAYS low (compared to a piston engine). So for Mazda to simply 'add more torque' just doesn't happen. They are offering the RX-8 at a price undercutting the competition and as a result need to work prices upwards for the RX-7 and the increase in power that will see. However you don't understand how business works either so I am not going to teach you how it works.

I believe that I just said I would LOVE some more power/torque. Didn't I? Let's see...
At most points I think I come across like I don't want more! No, really... I do.
Okay so that's settled. I do want more torque. However I also posted an addendum, didn't I? Or did you forget to read that too?
But power comes at a price, and generally that is WEIGHT.
Good so far? So now you might understand why I don't want Mazda to work on the engine to produce more power. First, it's going to cost MORE MONEY. Do you think Mazda is going to give us a 300hp car out of the goodness of their heart? Oh wait, this goes back to how BUSINESS works and I realize that in your pea-sized mind.. you wouldn't understand that.

But let me explain it as a 'dummies' book would. Mazda is in the business of making cars to TURN A PROFIT. If they gave the RX-8 a nice 300 horsepower engine and great handling, what the HELL is the point of the RX-7? It's the same problem that plagued it in the early 90s.. the RX-7 got too expensive to own and buy.

Mazda's working on the RX-8 the right way.. lower powered for me is fine.. I'd be thrilled if I saw the RX-8 with a 300hp 200lb/ft of torque or so, but right now that's more likely for the MPS RX-8. The RX-7 will be a lighter weight car with more power. And comparitively, it's going to be lower torque than the 350Z and G35 as well. If they get to maybe the 300 horsepower mark, I'd expect around 200lb/ft of torque or so, maybe a bit more.

Lastly, you say I accuse people of being trolls because they own a different car? Look buddy you have your 15 or 20 posts and you think you have a valid contribution to this forum? 10 of those posts have been in arguement to ME (which is fine), and the other 5 or 10 have been in regard to "I like the RX-8 BUT.... <insert gripe here>". You have made NO valid contribution to this site, and don't think you will.

And you've also dragged your lackeys from FreshAlloy.com to follow in with the same torque comments that have been floating around on this forum for A LONG TIME.

If you cared to use the SEARCH function then you'd see that I was considering the G35 Coupe and came here to ask questions about the RX-8 because well... I do my homework about EVERYTHING. I too was concerned with the torque issue and after investigating it for more than a year I've put it behind me. People will buy WHAT THEY WANT TO, and the people here are doing just that.

You come on the forum, your first post being a gripe about how the RX-8 wasn't 'safe'. Allow me to quote you:
Not to make too many priliminary assumptions, but a sub 3000lb car with 9k redline and lacking a fixed B-pillar doesn't sound safe to me. I was as well, the person that bunked that arguement.
So you're not a troll? Allow me to continue:
Well, my car has 270lb.ft torque, and most of it available at 2500rpm. Some say that there is no replacement for displacement, and to a certain degree, it's certainly true. That being said, the Renesis is necessarily an inferior engine because it lacks torque. Mazda was never really known for making heavy high torque cars like the Supra, 3000GT or Skyline. Mazda is good at nimble, light cars with small displacement engines and excellent cornering abilities.
Or...
Honestly the Mazda 6 is built in the US, with a Mexican made engine..... That spells "FORD" to me anyway you look at it. I wouldn't use the Mazda 6 is a good gauge for the performance of the 8. Now if we are talking about a Mazda 6 built and made in Japan.... that could make a difference. Either way, the Mazda 6 is a good looking car, but Mazda is overdoing its zoom zoom 6 commercials. (Reminds me of the MPV commercials when they compared it to a Miata: PATHETIC)
Sadly, I have only posted up to the FIFTH post you posted here. You aren't a troll? Give me a freakin break. You started posting all this crap and I was very kind in responding to you the SAME way I do to everybody else until it's clear that all you have is a trolling attitude. Here's an example of one of my early replies to you:
I don't think so.. The RX-8 is a more niche car than the G35 just due to the rotary engine, the lower straight line power and suicide doors.

If I didn't like the uniqueness and innovativeness of the RX-8 over the G35 then I'd probably be getting a G35 Coupe now. However power isn't paramount to me -- handling and fun factor are. I think C&D shares my view and that's why the RX-8 took top honors. I think more than a few magazine writers/editors share my view in fact, which is why the RX-8 thus far, has gotten rave reviews

But it won't be Infiniti vs Mazda until the RX-7 comes out... then we will all be yammerin and yackin about which is better. Being biased, I'll put my early vote in for the RX-7 .
And I can go on thru the other 24 posts you have here.

There have been lots of people here that have different cars and I've been fair to all of them. DonG35 comes to mind, and we have had our disagreements but overall very constructive discussions and debates and the site in my eyes, benefitted from that.

However you come here and the majority of your first 20 posts are ALL trolling... no I don't get a very high opinion of you. And no I don't give you leeway like I do other members that PARTICIPATE in the site by giving information, and making constructive debates for the benefit of everybody.

Skimming over your posts, it's quite apparent you ARE A TROLL. Sadly, I've never needed to attack a person on this forum to get them to perhaps realize the error of their ways but here goes:
You came on this forum starting with trolling:
Renesis is a crap engine.
RX-8 has no torque.
RX-8 is not safe.
Hercules is a bad moderator because he doesn't like trolls like ME!

Not to mention your 'plethora' of car related information is absolutely astounding:
An FX35 will provide the same fun as an RX-8.
Manual transmissions can't be as smooth as automatics.
Good handling consists of 'turning really hard.'
The Mazda6 engine is entirely FORD.
If the car is AUTOMATIC, RWD and FWD make no difference.
Audi interiors are cheap.
"If the rotary is so good, why doesn't Mazda use it in all their cars?"

And the list goes on.

So let's look at the facts:
I was polite to you when you first got here.
I put up with more than 10 posts of your trolling.
I admit, I got fed up with your attitude (and others as well).
You came here and within 2 posts were bashing the RX-8/Renesis.
You have no applicable rotary knowledge.
And you are bringing your FreshAlloy minions here to troll here also.

Sorry but while some people will pussyfoot around this topic, I'll call you a useless, know nothing, big mouthed, stupid troll. There you have it. It's not because you own a G35. It's not because you're from FreshAlloy.com. It's because you're stupid, you don't know anything about the rotary engine, you came here trolling and hopefully one of the other mods will see it too and you'll be leaving here shortly.

And the RX-8 forum regulars can feel free to pitch in their comments on this. I'd encourage you to use the 'search' button under Skyline Maniac's name to look at EVERY response I've given him and been as kind as possible in every one until lately.

I know I'm right, and I always apologise when I'm wrong. But this isn't one of those times.. In fact this ENTIRE post was just to alleviate any insults or anger I might have caused the people from FreshAlloy or other Nissan/G35 forums to just read about the car that beat the G35. Those that want valid information about why it happened.. we are here to supply it. If they come here trolling within 5 posts (like YOU), then they are not welcome and can feel free to return to their home at <insert forum here> where the mindless zombies will nod and smile to everything they say not because they have the knowledge to make the decisions.. but because they own the cars and are blinded by them.

I'm done for now.

To say that the RX8 has more than ample power (when in fact EVERY car magazine that has had the chance to drive the car has said otherwise) is pure ignorance. If power is of no significance at all and "driving fun" is the only important thing, why bother with the RX8 at all....one should just buy the Miata. If the RX8 was just a family hauler with a couple of suicided doors I would not care if it had even less torque than it has but as soon as it is called a sports car which just is trick enough to have space for four, the torque becomes significant as does the performance.

C&D clearly state that they were able to obtain the 0-60 time of 5.9 second by dropping the clutch at 8000rpm and that in practical driving the time would be around 7.5 seconds! That means that for all practical purposes and during daily driving the car would be adequate as a family sedan but rather lethargic for a "Sports Car". When Mazda gave the car the name RX and called it a sports car they should have also given it the performance to back up that claim. It is this point that Hercules and the others here don't seem to get.;)

http://www.geocities.com/trinigoddess20/history.html

Really is sad when you have nothing better to do. But to show your inferiority. And bashing just to bash. Now when I came here I had some misguided info about the Wankel now after about 6 months I know a lot more. But really drop the childish attitude its getting old and for your info the 3.0 duratech that Mazda uses for the 6 only the block thats right the block is ford everything else is Mazda the Pistons,rods,heads and so forth is Mazda.

Some kindly advice Get some manners.:mad:

Originally posted by shiftright
To say that the RX8 has more than ample power (when in fact EVERY car magazine that has had the chance to drive the car has said otherwise) is pure ignorance. If power is of no significance at all and "driving fun" is the only important thing, why bother with the RX8 at all....one should just buy the Miata. If the RX8 was just a family hauler with a couple of suicided doors I would not care if it had even less torque than it has but as soon as it is called a sports car which just is trick enough to have space for four, the torque becomes significant as does the performance.

C&D clearly state that they were able to obtain the 0-60 time of 5.9 second by dropping the clutch at 8000rpm and that in practical driving the time would be around 7.5 seconds! That means that for all practical purposes and during daily driving the car would be adequate as a family sedan but rather lethargic for a "Sports Car". When Mazda gave the car the name RX and called it a sports car they should have also given it the performance to back up that claim. It is this point that Hercules and the others here don't seem to get.;) See now this is the type of debate I LIKE! Good points, and well thought out. I hope you can keep it up :D

Anywhoo lemme reply to ya... the definition of 'sports car' is one that's tossed around a lot. By most definitions and magazines for that matter, the Mazda Miata, Lotus Elise, Toyota MR2 are all 'sports cars'. The Miata and MR2 aren't fast at all... and even they require quite a clutch drop to get their 0-60 times reproduced. But by all accounts.. still a sports car.

But power isn't the only thing that makes a sports car. It's a definite ingredient though. But the 'whole package' is what sells me personally. Hypothetically, let's say the RX-7 isn't the fastest car in the bunch. It will still 'run with' the others.

And the RX-8 is no different. Being .1 second being the G35 Coupe around a track that's got a lot of straights on it is definately 'running with' the competition. Will it win? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not on that track anyways. I've always been an advocate of sending comparison cars to Nurburgring (one of the curviest tracks out there!) to truly judge a car's character of being a 'sports car'. However that's unlikely to happen :)

Lastly... I think you have to appreciate what people like in the RX-8. The high-revving nature doesn't appeal to many people... and Mazda knows this. But to the people doing their homework, and that like to take drives on curvy roads or occasional track/autox days... the RX-8 is great.

So in conclusion.. the RX-8 won't *beat* the competition and more often than not it will depend on the driver around courses.. straight line I'll give it to ya... it won't win. But that doesn't bother me. It's not where I'm going to wring that gearbox out anyways :)

Comparison

95 TT RX7
0-60 5.2 1/4 13.8
price $34,558 Base in 95 dollars
tranny 5 Speed
HP 255
TQ 215

03 RX8
0-60 5.9 1/4 14.50
price 6 speed $27,300
tranny 6 speed
HP 247
TQ 159
for the price I'm happy as its close to the last RX7 by only a few tenths of a second and plus it hauls 2 extra people.:p

Decided it wasn't even worth the effort to respond to both of these guys.

:o

I wish everyone would QUIT saying that rotary engines dont make torque. Take any piston engine of the same conventional displacement and the rotary will have about 2 X the torque. Also, I dont need to remind anyone what the 20B or 787B made in torque even in N/A form (yea I know the 20B had twins, stfu).

Ok, now that we have that over with...the RX8 could have more torque and EVERYONE of you would want it with more than it has, but if you look at the entire package of the car and its value, you will see the genious. The Rx-8 is designed to appeal to all classes. they are trying to and NEED to sell a boatload of these. There is no other car on the market that can give you anywhere near the performance of this car for the price. 31K for a FULLY loaded RX8? 28K for a base model with the 6 speed and 250 HP? 25K for the 210 hp? Please, a freaking miata goes for 26K.

This car needs to be n/a initially. Mazda made a BIG, BIG, BIG mistake by making the third gen RX-7 only a turbo model. They would have sold alot more of them, like the 300Z did.

Anyway, this car is the best deal out there and is going to be fun as hell. I'll never give up my FD3s, but then again my car is not as comforitable, get as good gas mileage or practicle as the RX-8 is going to be.

anyway, I'll say one more time, there is nothing in the price range that offers as much as the RX-8 does. Its going to outsell the EVO, WRX, 350Z and S2000.

zerobanger while I appreciate your comments let's keep this thread on track. I just wanted to point out the misconceptions people had about what I was saying in the forums :)

Since I'm such a meanie I need to have a disclaimer! :D

Originally posted by Spining Ncnratr
Comparison

95 TT RX7
0-60 5.2 1/4 13.8
price $34,558 Base in 95 dollars
tranny 5 Speed
HP 255
TQ 215

03 RX8
0-60 5.9 1/4 14.50
price 6 speed $27,300
tranny 6 speed
HP 247
TQ 159
for the price I'm happy as its close to the last RX7 by only a few tenths of a second and plus it hauls 2 extra people.:p

you know that they got 13.7 on the 1/4, 4.9 0-60, 60-0 in 110 feet, and the tq is actually 217.

Also you forgot to compare the skid pad of .98 for the rx7. Im getting an RX-8 to park next to the 7, you can bank on it, but don't compare the two interms of performance.

Hercules said it more eloquently and more politely than I could, but I think I should toss in my .02. The RX-8 is a niche-breaking car. It represents everything that Mazda has stood for in the past: cars that break the mold, cars that make a statement with their performance.

I will harken to the past for a moment, as I often do when I think about rotaries. My car is older than I am, a quarter century old to be precise. It is a 1979 Mazda RX-7 GS, known to many as the SA22C or Savanna. This car has a whopping 100 hp and 105 ft/lbs of torque. Driving it is the most fun I have ever had. This car is silky smooth and it begs me to be revved and tossed into corners. My car was built as an affordable Sports/GT car, competing with the Datsun 280ZX, the Porsche 914 and the Toyota Supra just to name a few. It was a slower car, with a 0-60 of 9.2 seconds, but every review spoke of what a pleasure it was to drive this car and how this remarkable vehicle was, in the case of the 914, half the price of the competition.

Fast forward 25 years.

The RX-8 is a blast to drive and can haul around four people. It's a world class car for the same price as a family sedan. If Car and Driver states that the RX-8 is the best RX ever, then that's saying something. If every review is filled with commentary about the joy that is driving the RX-8, that says something. Every comment about torque is counterpointed by the pure joy of revving a rotary to 9k rpm. Can the RX-8 be faster? Yes. But at what cost? Right now, Mazda is on the verge of repeating history by introducing a car that undercuts the competition in price and delivers comperable performance. Every review says without equivocation that the RX-8 is more fun to drive than the cars it is compared to.

To me, that says it all.

First of all, thanks for the nice comments about me, Herc. I didn't know you cared!

Second, I have been away for a while on business projects and the recent reviews of the RX-8 piqued my interest again, so I am back. I find myself agreeing both with the "torque trolls" and the "you don't get it (YDGI) re;the RX-8" groups to a certain extent.

I like a high-revving car. It's nice to be able to wind it out once in a while. My G35 sedan is just a 260hp automatic, and do you know how many opportunities to wind it out I get? Not many. Put the loud pedal to the floor for more than a few seconds and you are seriously over local limits. The response is instantaneous, the acceleration explosive, and you better be damned careful about where you are going. It demands your full attention.

Next, take my 1997 Miata. The 1997 was the quickest of the first generation Miatas and I think they did 0-60 in a hair under 8 seconds with a standard C&D clutch drop acceleration run. When I drive my Miata, I can generously apply the throttle, wind the engine out a bit, and shift as I enjoy the experience of driving. It does not need any more power to be enjoyable; in fact, as BWOB often says at miata.net, much more power would upset the balance of the car.
I agree with him.

So how do I feel about the RX-8? Somewhere between the torque trolls and the YDGI crowd. More so than the RX-8 needing more torque, I think it needs to come in at a lower rpm without sacrificing the high-revving nature of the car too much. It sounds like the RX-8 is a fast car that does not feel particularly fast unless driven aggressively, and whose real-world performance feels a bit off the pace its test numbers would suggest. If you live in a city and suburbs with a lot of terrain as I do, the RX-8's real-world performance will suffer still a bit more. Add more than one passenger to the mix and when you are pointed up a steep Pittsburgh hill, you will have it floored and you will STILL be crawling.

On the other hand, with a torquey car like a G35, it does not matter how steep the hill is or how loaded up you are. Just a touch moves you briskly, and floor it and you are flying in short order . It's nice to have effortless power like that on tap. No getting around it. But again, you can't wind it out all that often, either.

So, as I said, my own thoughts are in-between the torque trolls and the YDGI crowd. I do get it about the RX-8, it may just not be for me. The test drive will tell the tale.

No one's minds are going to be changed by any of this discussion. When I read the articles this month, I find myself still on the fence but interested enough that I have not cancelled and got my deposit back. I haven't driven the car and until I do, I can't say for sure what my impressions are going to be. A street start 0-60 of 7.5 seconds is pretty pathetic IMHO. I would like my RX-8 to feel faster than an Accord V6 sedan. I've been dying for another rotary powered car, though. Granted, MY car would be a 2800 lb rotary roadster with 300hp and 200 lb/ft of torque, and would accelerate like a wild beast from the word go, with the pull getting stronger as the revs rise. But I am skeptical that Mazda will ever make the car. I hope the RX-8 is successful, but for it to achieve marketplace success it will have to get buyers beyond this rotary group. The people who test drive it may not get the concept of the high revving rotary and be left with the impression that the car just isn't very fast, and move on to something else.

So...... you all agree that the RX8 is a nice family sedan that has good handling, and enough power to get around town? It's also cheap enough for people who need the practicality of everyday life but wants some fun driving on the weekends. So it's not really a 2 door sport car with suicide door, rather it's a 'stylish' 4 door family sedan with nice handling.

If you look at it that way, then the RX8 looks like a good car. Almost like a more sporty RWD version of the Mazda 6, which also seems like a nice family sedan. In that sense, I actually like the Mazda 6 better than the 8, 5 passengers, 4 real doors, MSRP almost $9k cheaper than a 8, and according to Mazda, very fun to drive as well. The Mazda 6 has 220hp, 192lb.ft from a 3L V6, which is not bad at all. If the RX8 is supposed to be a sporty sedan, then Mazda should have used the same 3L V6 in the RX8 and call it a day. It might not be as fast or 'fun to drive' but at least it'll be cheap and had 'practical torque.' At least in the 4AT model RX8, I'd much rather see a V6 and lower price point in the automatic model. (Then again, they wouldn't be able to call it a 'RX' without the rotary.)

I never thought of the 8 as a sedan until you guys mentioned it, because it just seems very strange. That means you would be comparing the RX-8 to other 4 door sedans like the Accord or Altima..... which may be less fun to drive, but will be faster than the 8 in real world conditions. So I don't think it's beneficial to think of the RX8 as a family sedan, because it would lose its edge against cheaper, bigger, more pratical and faster competitors. I prefer to think of the RX8 as a sport car with 2 extra door and seats. Sort of a 4 door Miata or S2000 if you will. High revving, lightweight, fun to drive weekend car. The backseats have ample room, but putting anybody back there and the RX8 would lose its fun value due to the extra weight. :( Fun to drive is important to some, but at what cost? So~ I still prefer to think of the RX8 as a hybrid sport car, not a hybrid family car. We got the 6 for that job.

DonG35Miata made a good point, it's not often you get to explore the 'full potential' of a torquy engine, but you will notice a significant difference during everyday driving. Driving up hills, carrying people, and stop and go requires some torque, these are the things you look for in a 'practical sedan.' Now if you are talking about a fun to drive weekend car like the S2000, then by all means forget about torque and keep the rpm above 6000 at all times. How often can you explore the limit of your car to 'have fun driving'? In real world conditions, 90% of the roads are constsed of straight lines, traffic, and 90 degree intersections. So unless you plan to track the car, drive in the mountains or AutoX the heck out of the RX8..... Hercules, since you talk so much about 'fun to drive' expectations. Do you do mountain runs, AutoX, tracking or circling around parking lot light poles? What do you consider as 'fun to drive' since you havn't driven the RX8. Do you have fun driving your Millenia or Maxima?

If you want practicality and cheap price, there are lots of cars out there. If you want performance and big engines, there are choices out there, too. However, if all you want is a fun to drive car with 4 seats regardless of how fast it actually goes or how much it costs, then the RX8 just might be the golden choice.

The million dollar question is: How much more fun to drive is the RX8 to other cars? Mini S? 350Z? Miata? S2000? I guess we'll never know until the car shows up at the dealerships. I know I'll want to test drive one to get the RX8 experience everyone is so anxious about.

I am really not sure what the whole argument is about... The RX-8 has very similar numbers to the G35 and the 350Z depending on what rag you read (and let's not kidd ourselves here people, magazines are the ONLY indication on performance of the RX-8 thus far.)

IMHO I think the G35c and 350Z people are a little upset that the RX-8 can compete so closely with only 1.3Ls worth of displacement and 159lb/ft of torque. It is fortunate for them that the RX-8 does not have more torque or they would have their asses handed to them with ease.

That said, please don't try to compare the 8 to the 6. Come on, it's just a rediculous comparo. The should turn out to be just what it is marketed as: An affordable, 4-door, rotary sports car. Period.

IMHO I think the G35c and 350Z people are a little upset that the RX-8 can compete so closely with only 1.3Ls worth of displacement and 159lb/ft of torque. It is fortunate for them that the RX-8 does not have more torque or they would have their asses handed to them with ease.

I'm laughing at this one.

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I for one do not compare my car to everyone else's and feel jealousy, regret, etc. People buy what makes them happy, and I hope everyone is just as happy with their cars as I am with mine. Granted, I own a G35 sedan and not a coupe, but I doubt many G35c owners will be jealous of the RX-8 for any reason. The inverse is just as true for the RX-8 owners. If they thought a G35c was for them, they would have purchased one already. As for having asses handed to them with ease, I'd say even my G35 sedan with an automatic will take the RX-8 off the line if the 8 is not being driven by an expert driver dropping the clutch at 7,500-8,000 RPM and executing every shift perfectly. But the RX-8 does NOT have more torque, so what you said doesn't amount to a pile of $^%# anyway!

The cars compete in the marketplace based on their prices and sporting nature, but they are aimed at different customers IMHO. I love my G35 sedan, but I don't care for the coupe. Too heavy for a 2+2 to be really sporty, no matter how fast it is. If later today both my cars were stolen or blown away in a tornado the G35c would not even be on my list, though the RX-8 would be. Though the G35c is clearly faster in both real-world and test-track conditions, the RX-8 is clearly sportier, where the coupe's emphasis is on luxury. One look at the interior and the curb weight tells the tale. Though Infiniti is not yet up to Lexus or BMW level when it comes to marketplace clout and prestige, it's still an Infiniti and the Mazda is, well, a Mazda. This does matter to some people, and the fact is you will probably have a better ownership experience with an Infiniti based on the dealer network. Having the free loaners and the spotlessly clean car when I have my oil changed (for all of $32.99, by the way) makes you feel really great.

Which car is "better" depends on how you look at it, and that's it. Look at the C&D test. It was focused on sportiness, and the
RX-8 won by virture of its light weight and responsiveness. Now let's reframe it a bit. Now the cars being tested are the 330i, the G35c, and the RX-8 and the test is called "Luxury performance coupes." Where do you think the RX-8 would place? 3rd.

Highs: Light weight, useable back seat, responsive sporty feel, low price
Lows: Needs more low-end power, cockpit more sporty than luxurious, Mazda dealers don't offer upmarket experience
The Verdict: The sportiest of the three. A supercharger and more luxury needed to make it competitive with the others.

I also think when Joe Sixpack, or his upmarket brother drive the RX-8 and a G35c back to back they are going to think of the G35c "damn, that's a fast car!" and of the RX-8 "needs more power", doesn't feel nearly as fast as the Infiniti" based on responsiveness in real-world conditions. An Audi engineer once said something in the like of, "people buy horsepower, but what they like is torque." There is a lot of truth to this. I thought about what I liked about my GTI 1.8T and what immediately came to mind was the power curve.

That said, please don't try to compare the 8 to the 6. Come on, it's just a rediculous comparo. The should turn out to be just what it is marketed as: An affordable, 4-door, rotary sports car. Period.

This one I agree with. That's an insult to the RX-8, which is a great car that is totally unique. The interior may be the best design of any passenger car today, bar none. It really does offer a true sports car experience with added practicality from the rear seats and rear doors. I really like it and I can't wait to test drive mine and maybe even take it home. I may even sell or trade in my Miata (long shot!) to make the purchase seem a little less wasteful, and enjoy the RX-8 as I wait for the advent of the rotary roadster

The rotary engine is a niche engine, and will always have a smaller following than it's piston counterpart. If some people choose to confine themselves to the numbers and ignore all parts of the reviews that call the RX-8 a joy to drive, then that's their perogative.

Originally posted by DonG35Miata


I'm laughing at this one.

Ok... I am not sure what your getting at here. Is the RX-8's performance laughable? My point there was just that the RX-8 can and will be able to compete with the G35c and the 350Z on the track or in a straight line. If it couldn't, it would not be in comparo's with them.

Granted, I own a G35 sedan and not a coupe, but I doubt many G35c owners will be jealous of the RX-8 for any reason. The inverse is just as true for the RX-8 owners.
I will agree with you 100% on that one.

As for having asses handed to them with ease, I'd say even my G35 sedan with an automatic will take the RX-8 off the line if the 8 is not being driven by an expert driver dropping the clutch at 7,500-8,000 RPM and executing every shift perfectly. But the RX-8 does NOT have more torque, so what you said doesn't amount to a pile of $^%# anyway!


I would be very interested to see a test between the G35 sedan and the RX-8. I think they would be much closer than you think. But I would like to thank you for calling my comments less than a pile of poo... ;)

Ok... I am not sure what your getting at here.

I was laughing about the G35c and 350Z drivers being " a little upset that the RX-8 can compete so closely with only 1.3Ls worth of displacement and 159lb/ft of torque". They could not care less, I am sure, just as RX-8 drivers don't care how fast the G35s are off the line because they are so heavy. Both cars have their strong points, which is why buyers will choose what they do.

I would be very interested to see a test between the G35 sedan and the RX-8. I think they would be much closer than you think.

Ah... and the evidence is available for you already, remember what I said:
I'd say even my G35 sedan with an automatic will take the RX-8 off the line if the 8 is not being driven by an expert driver dropping the clutch at 7,500-8,000 RPM and executing every shift perfectly.

What I was getting at is real world driving conditions with non-professional drivers. This would not be a magazine test. If you do want to compare magazine tests, then compare Car and Driver's 5-60 street start, which is designed to simulate the way cars are normally driven. The SS 5-60 time of the G35 sedan, was well under 7.0 seconds in their complete road test (6.4 if memory serves) and the RX-8's 5-60 street start was 7.5 seconds. That's not even close, and with the G35 doing the shifting the results are easily repeatable, where again the RX-8 driver will have to execute perfect shifts to duplicate that time.

My point was and continues to be: the RX-8 will not feel particularly fast in real-world driving conditions, especially compared to some of its competitors (whatever they are, as the 8 is so unique), or even the modern crop of Japanese V6 family sedans. Even a 325i coupe will likely "feel" faster than an RX-8, and it is very close in price if lightly optioned.

I still like the RX-8... a lot... and well may buy one. But the perception of speed and engine power just might hurt it in the marketplace where everyone is not a rotor fan like me. I sure hope not, I want my rotary roadster! I may buy an 8 to make that just a little more possible- on top of enjoying a unique and fun car.

*rubs eyes gently*...

alright, guys?? JTek, Don, it's okay... we have our differences, let's make them heard on other threads, please?? i just want to stay on topic so i can point out to SkylineManiac that his posts do contain objectionable and silly parts (as Herc pointed out)... but aren't completely bad.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
So...... you all agree that the RX8 is a nice family sedan that has good handling, and enough power to get around town? It's also cheap enough for people who need the practicality of everyday life but wants some fun driving on the weekends. So it's not really a 2 door sport car with suicide door, rather it's a 'stylish' 4 door family sedan with nice handling.
Almost like a more sporty RWD version of the Mazda 6, which also seems like a nice family sedan.

If the RX8 is supposed to be a sporty sedan, then Mazda should have used the same 3L V6 in the RX8 and call it a day.(Then again, they wouldn't be able to call it a 'RX' without the rotary.)

That means you would be comparing the RX-8 to other 4 door sedans like the Accord or Altima..... which may be less fun to drive, but will be faster than the 8 in real world conditions.



see, this is the kind of thing that is getting you into trouble... i'll continue after this next highlight...

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
I prefer to think of the RX8 as a sport car with 2 extra door and seats. Sort of a 4 door Miata or S2000 if you will. High revving, lightweight, fun to drive weekend car. The backseats have ample room, but putting anybody back there and the RX8 would lose its fun value due to the extra weight. :( Fun to drive is important to some, but at what cost? So~ I still prefer to think of the RX8 as a hybrid sport car, not a hybrid family car. We got the 6 for that job.

ahhh, now this is a GOOD retort. you don't step on anyones toes (intentionally, or un), and don't make outrageous statements like the RX-8 is just a snazzy, sporty, tiny sedan which is slower than the big fat whales competing there (as you did in your first passage which i quoted). You see, that could easily be construed as trolling, especially the "slower in the real world" part, which still isn't true. Honestly, if talk like that prevails, this place is starting to get out of hand, and i wouldn't want to hang around and see that happen.

but, you did make your point that you don't like the tradeoff between performance, and practicality... now we're getting somewhere.
notice also how torque was not an issue there, but it's obvious that it could easily be working in some way, like "the extra mass added to the car to accomodate the rear two passengers is too much for the engine", which does not place any onus on the RENESIS (which is a nearly-miraculous engine, any way you cut it: ask an engineer), or that "rotaries are stupid", or another silly juvenile comment, but does say that this car doesn't suit your tastes for baseline punch (which is really what this is about: the car moves, so beyond that it's about taste whether or not it has "enough" torque).
sorry, i'm TRYING to stay on topic.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac

Now if you are talking about a fun to drive weekend car like the S2000, then by all means forget about torque and keep the rpm above 6000 at all times. How often can you explore the limit of your car to 'have fun driving'? In real world conditions, 90% of the roads are constsed of straight lines, traffic, and 90 degree intersections. So unless you plan to track the car, drive in the mountains or AutoX the heck out of the RX8..... Hercules, since you talk so much about 'fun to drive' expectations. Do you do mountain runs, AutoX, tracking or circling around parking lot light poles? What do you consider as 'fun to drive' since you havn't driven the RX8. Do you have fun driving your Millenia or Maxima?

thank you, another suitable passage. and to just answer your questions, yes this is the sort of thing most of us enthusiast future-owners would be doing (i'm not a near-future-owner... i'm a far-distant-future-owner... ;)), and i think that traffic patterns depend mostly on where you live. it sounds to me like you live in a city, but there is a lot more world out there that isn't urban jungle, my friend. even around my humble home, there are many many places to go and drive the bejesus out of my poor Toyota Echo, just for fun (when i can afford the gas... god am i glad i'm getting a better job)... sorry for the digression. :)

but in short yes, this car is designed with the enthusiast in mind, who wants to wind it up, fling it around corners, and pull four people around during the week. THIS IS THE WAY THE CAR WAS SUPPOST TO BE. :) i'm glad that you are now "getting it".

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
If you want practicality and cheap price, there are lots of cars out there. If you want performance and big engines, there are choices out there, too. However, if all you want is a fun to drive car with 4 seats regardless of how fast it actually goes or how much it costs, then the RX8 just might be the golden choice.

yes, and further evidence that you are "getting it". there are differences in this car, tradeoffs which were made between price, straight line go, all-around performance, and practicality. the people who're here on this board love this car for one reason or another, but many of whom have already a deposit on the car (i wish i could count myself among them).

when people who are putting a substancial chunk of their time, income, and love into somethign like this, and it's demeaned by someone saying that is't just a sporty, small, slow version of the 100% Ford Mazda 6, well, you can understand why some people get all up in a tiff.

i don't care what was said by whom, i just want this baloney to stop. it's a waste of everyones time, and the server's bandwidth to transmit this information. i don't want to come across as feeling morally superior, or magnanimous (however you spell that stupid word :p), but just a voice with a little reason in it, sometimes. we don't need wars, we don't need silly and thoughtless things said about ANYTHING, but what we need is patience, debate, and good convo.

thanks.

Wakeech always makes the best posts...

Originally posted by JTek_55
Wakeech always makes the best posts...

wow. :o thanks.

i think the root of all this discussion is:

I. Does fun factor make up for speed? Or is speed more important then the fun factor?
a. Follow up: do u prefer high reving or "power on tap"?

II. What defines a sports car?
a. On one side, the RX-8 must not be sports car but a "sedan" b/c it can't consistently outacclerate a Accord.
b. On the other side, sports cars should be fun. An Accord simply does not offer this to the extent a RX-8 does.

Originally posted by chenpin
i think the root of all this discussion is:


II. What defines a sports car?
a. On one side, the RX-8 must not be sports car but a "sedan" b/c it can't consistently outacclerate a Accord.
b. On the other side, sports cars should be fun. An Accord simply does not offer this to the extent a RX-8 does.

road and track had a good definition- a sports car is judged by it's ability to put a smile on your face from driving it. judging by the cheshire cat like grins on all the faces around here the rx- has succeded. (paraphrasing) :D

Wow interesting debate! All I gotta say is that one should be happy with what they have, a lot of people I know don't or never will be able to afford a nice vehicle such as an Rx8, G35, 350X etc. Thats the way I look at things, just be happy with your choice, you only live once and will only own maybe 2-3 super nice cars in your lifetime. I feel fortunate to have gotten a NSX for a super good deal, and everytime I drive it, I feel like im in heaven. People on various forums harass it for not having enough power when compared to Corvettes, etc., but I ignore them, because everytime I go out with my less-fortunate friends I even let them drive it and the feeling they get is undescribable. I dunno, I sort of make my car, my friends car as well. You guys probably think I'm sounding stupid right now so I will stop! Anyways, my point is, be happy with what you have!!:D

I just want a brand-spankin' new rotary-engine vehicle. Fortunately for me, it comes in one helluva package! I could care less about other vehicles. Mazda built me a car I have LOVED for the last 16 years (2nd gen RX-7), and I am expecting the same from them with the RX-8. 'Nuff said.

Random comments I feel like adding to the debate.

First, numerical ratings for torque and horsepower don't give the whole picture. My 2001 Impala is rated at 46 more pound feet of torque, available at much lower RPM, than the RX-8 and the car's only ~300 pounds heavier. That doesn't mean I'd be able to beat an RX-8 in a race, even in a straight line. Check out this post by Buger comparing the gearing between the two (http://www.rx8forum.com/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=29615) . That's important.

Second, if it was just about brute acceleration, the G35/350Z wouldn't be the car on everyone's minds. It would be the Mustang SVT Cobra, which massacres the other two. You get a handy 390 horsepower and torque for the same price as a G35. Funny thing is, there aren't a lot of people here that complain that the RX-8 (or the G35, for that matter) can't possible keep up with the Cobra in straight line run so they must be bad buys. Everyone realizes that a car's looks, comfort, practicality, prestige, gas mileage, and cornering are part of the equation when they compare Mustangs to G35s and Mustangs to RX-8s. Is it so difficult to consider those things when you compare a G35 to an RX-8?

Third, price is a big deal for a lot of people. A fully optioned RX-8 is, what, around $30K? My friend just bought a fully optioned G35 coupe for $37K. That's a difference of $117 a month, plus interest, on a five year loan. For some people choosing between the two, $117 a month amounts to petty cash. I'm happy for them, but me and thousands of other potential buyers don't have that kind of money laying around. The RX-8 ends up being nice bang for the buck for buyers who can't afford much more than a mid-range sedan.

I think that "someone" on this board is soooo PO'ed about RX8 beating G35 in a comparo (and the 8 being such a phenomenal automobile) that he cant help being a TROLL on this board ! :D.

0_o
GEeeezzzz
Wellz all I can say you guys are good debaters and do your homework...you guys should go on to politics. just want to put

my 2 cents down = I look at the rx-8 as a bad pimp daddy... 2 me you don't need power to have fun, but since almost every road is a straight away, the only thing thats fun is going block A to block b less than 14 sec. If going 14 seconds excites you "or less" than rx-8 is not your car "14 seconds of thrills doesn't sound fun 2 me... If you want thrills, hit corners, drift down the mountains "initial D style" all day long with a sexy looking car!!! than rx-8 is your car, and on top of that if you see that lazy looking straight road.... you could still run it 14 sec. "my 2 cents"

and skyline I've read some of your post... and mainly I think you just like 2 argue with the guy, since most of your post are arguin with him.

Originally posted by moogle

and skyline I've read some of your post... and mainly I think you just like 2 argue with the guy, since most of your post are arguin with him.

:D Someone noticed~ Hey, he started it, and he's a moderator for crying out loud.

I like your interpretation of the RX-7. We owned an AE86 before, and that was one fun car to drive. Initial D..... come to think of it, if the Trueno can pull off magic at downhill hairpins, there is no reason why the RX8 couldn't do the same.

First I'll say I love my 8. I test drove a G35 coupe and found it too small inside for me. The Z, even smaller. When I test drove the 8 I knew it was the one for me. Now, when Mazda lowered the horsepower rating to 238 they didn't say anything regarding new torque rating. Why, becauase the 8 already had a torque rating that was too low for some peoples tastes. Remember we're American, we're used to torque. In fact, my 200 Buick Regal GS had 280 lbs. of torque and 240 horses. Was it more fun to drive than the 8, NO! Did it feel faster when on the highway. I'm sorry to say, over 30 mph the Regal felt faster, and I didn't have to work hard to feel it. This was due to the torque. But that's why I like the 8. I like to work for my performance.

Does the 8 have enough horses/torque. I think it originally did. Think, when you add aftermarket performance items to your car, the horsepower gains always are higher than the torque gains. Can one say that when you loose more horses you lose even more torque. Perhaps that is why mazda is not so quick to report lower torque #s. Does anyone know the torque of the 8. I don't think it's 159. I think the 250 hp 8 is a perfectly balanced sports car, but you have to remember, when somethings perfectly balanced it doesn't take much to tip the scales. If the 8 was using its true power I don't think anyone around would argue that It's not better than the Z or G35cp. It already handles better. A couple of mods and I'll smoke em.