The HP upgrade to the 2005 G35 sedan and coupe (277 HP and 295 HP, respectively) that Skyline Maniac outlines in the other thread in the General Automotive forum is extremely intriguing insofar as what it means to Mazda.

I'm not sure how correct my logic is but here goes.

1. The G35/350z combo is a major competitor of the RX8.

2. What a competitor does first can affect what a carmaker does.

3. The G35/350z came out one year before the RX8, putting Nissan in a position to make changes first while Mazda watches closely.

4. With the HP increases by Nissan, Mazda has to respond in some way, either by (a) upgrading HP in the RX8, (b) introducing another car to compete more directly with the upgraded competition, or (c) denying any comparability at all.

5. (c) Denying competition would be disastrous. I don't see this happening.

6. (a) Will Mazda increase HP in the 13b? The better question is: Can they? In NA form, I have some doubts but I really have no clue here. Supercharging or turbocharging? Well, wouldn't only a small percentage of, say, 2006 RX8's have FI while ALL G35/350z's would have increased HP? That would not be a prudent response by Mazda. Increasing displacement? Well, this generally happens across 4 to 6 year life cycles, not within a current cycle. Doing this for the next life cycle will be too late.

7. (b) How about introduce the RX7 with greater displacement and more HP than the RX8? This would take some of the onus/pressure off the RX8 and provide Mazda with a unique one-two punch similar to but different than what Nissan enjoys with the G35/350z.

I don't care what the rumors are about the RX7 not coming out. Some of it is probably misinformation purposely put out by the carmaker itself. I'd prefer to look at the moves by the competition and what those moves necessitate for Mazda. Nissan's moves make necessary some kind of response by Mazda. The question is what will those moves be?

What are your thoughts, you guys?

Can you say triple rotor?

Don't forget Toyota has one in the works due to be out soon. Let the games begin!

Well, I'm sure that Mazda has planned upgraded versions from the start, but of course they aren't going go release them all right away. I bet we'll see a revised version and/or Mazdaspeed turbo version around 2006-2007.

Also, I'm sure that Nissan's revisions to the G35 is at least part in response to the attention the RX-8 has been getting - great reviews, international engine of the year, winning comparos, etc.

However, I don't think that a minor revision by Nissan really necessitates any response from Mazda. Keep in mind that the RX-8 is selling strongly and is still ~$4k less than a similarly-equipped G35c. After all, Subaru didn't need to make any changes to their $25k 220hp WRX when Mazda released the $27k 238 RX-8 because people kept buying them.

It's cool that Nissan is making strides to rope in more people who believe the best bargain is the car with the highest horsepower to dollar ratio.

I would have bought my car over the G35 even if I knew it only had 225hp and the G35 already had 295hp. This is really the wrong car if you all you care about is hp. I know when I hit the track and I am passing those 300hp+ cars I made the right choice.

Originally posted by downshift
It's cool that Nissan is making strides to rope in more people who believe the best bargain is the car with the highest horsepower to dollar ratio.

eh... also - reliable, excellent service, semi-luxury, Brembo, excellent chasis, comfortable, very good handling, fast, smooth, high resale value, low insurance premium, reasonable gas milage, proven engine and has torque like you wouldn't believe. The down side is you can't find one with huge discount, especially those 6MT Coupes....;)

There is a psychological threshold somewhere with HP and perceived competition between cars and value.

Mazda better dance on the right side of that threshold. M477 brought up a good point. The HP upgrades have probably been ready to go for some time now. BUT a problem exists because of the current HP misrepresentation/debacle. For example, if the first tier of HP increase that should come out around 2006 only gets us back to 250 HP, that would not be too "forward," would it?

Again, FI would not be for all RX8's, whereas the HP increases for G35's and 350z's would be for all. There must be a general, across-the-board increase in HP in two-year intervals or something like that.

Murix's position is interesting, too. His position is basically that of noncompetition that I outlined in the opening post. Mazda can play that position, sure, but I think it would be extremely imprudent. Mazda may not have a choice but to do this, I think, if the engineering challenges prove too difficult. I think Mazda MUST find the engineering solutions, because I think that is the only way to ensure the rotary's survival. The marketing, such as spreading the rotary into several cars, is good but can go only so far without further engineering advancements.

People in a thread in the Discussion forum are fairly certain that 280 HP can be squeezed out of the renesis in NA form. If this is true, then it will be all Mazda needs for the next 4 years, which makes me more likely to believe that an RX7 won't come out in 2006 or 2007 or at all because it won't need to come out. All Mazda needs to do is to get 4 to 6 years down the road, when a new-cycle RX8 might sport increased displacement (instead of an RX7). Hell, in 2007 or 2008, if a two-door RX8 comes out with the bigger engine, that to me would pretty much be a new RX7.

If high HP was all that mattered then the old 260HP Acura TL Type-S or new 270HP TL or 260HP G35 should have destroyed the 225HP BMW 330i in sales. But they didn't...

I see your point, pelucidor. But perception is at play here, and perception is different for different situations. The current 3-series not only came from a tradition but came from a previous 3-series that was the best ever, effectively allowing BMW to sell more BMW's overall than Mercedes for the very first time in history. The current car carries that mark of excellence in the eyes of the general population, not just die-hard autophiles. You can't say the same for the TL.

However, the RX and the Z both have at least 3 generations. They virtually evolved together. They can not be separated. The current cars' packagings have become a bit different, yes, but the perception is still there that they ARE to be compared. Differences can be compared also, not just similarities. And they are compared by virtually everyone.

Perhaps you're right on the HP comparison. I just don't want to see that marketing path cause the demise of the rotary.

Originally posted by downshift
It's cool that Nissan is making strides to rope in more people who believe the best bargain is the car with the highest horsepower to dollar ratio.

Is it cool, or sad?

In terms of power compared to competitors, every RX-7 made has been underpowered including the 3rd gen. The 1G was 101 and only upped to 135 in 84. The Z made 200hp. The 2G was 147 in the beginning and never made it past 200. The Z was making 300. The 3G was 255 when its competitors were pushing 320. What makes this any different. HP has never been the selling point of a rotary. Again, if hp is your thing, this is the wrong car. I do not really think Mazda is too concerned. Did you see them too concerned with the Miata when all the new more powerful competitors appeared? Not too much. Mazda has never been a company to compete on hp alone.

Mazda's motto "Weight is the enemy"

It would be better for Mazda to cut another 100-150lb off the RX-8 rather than giving it more horse power. Let's try to bring the curb weight under 3000lb loaded and we'll have a zoom zoom car.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
Mazda's motto "Weight is the enemy"

It would be better for Mazda to cut another 100-150lb off the RX-8 rather than giving it more horse power. Let's try to bring the curb weight under 3000lb loaded and we'll have a zoom zoom car.

You gotta a very good point going on there: drop the back seats, suicide doors and listo! at least 300lbs lost with Atkins!

Originally posted by murix
In terms of power compared to competitors, every RX-7 made has been underpowered including the 3rd gen. The 1G was 101 and only upped to 135 in 84. The Z made 200hp. The 2G was 147 in the beginning and never made it past 200. The Z was making 300. The 3G was 255 when its competitors were pushing 320. What makes this any different. HP has never been the selling point of a rotary. Again, if hp is your thing, this is the wrong car. I do not really think Mazda is too concerned. Did you see them too concerned with the Miata when all the new more powerful competitors appeared? Not too much. Mazda has never been a company to compete on hp alone.

I knew someone would bring this up eventually. I should have just addressed it up front. The 3rd generation RX7's performance numbers were a little bit better than all of the competition (300zx twin turbo, Mitsubishi 3000 twin turbo) except the Supra twin turbo. Those numbers allay the fact the RX7 was down on HP. We can't say the same for the RX8. SOMETHING needs to be brought closer to or higher than the G35/350z, whether its performance (notably straightline) or HP.

The RX8 is more of a competitor with the G35c, not really the Z. Z is in another league altogether, boosted or unboosted.

I think Mazda should do something about the MPG issue, for a 1.3 litre engine it is shockingly terrible. FI is only going to put it within the leagues of Astons and Dodges (in MPG not performance obviously).

umm from most reports on the track testing of the RX-8 vs 350Z, the RX8 is only a couple tenths behind the 350Z. Yeah its not as fast straight line...so?

Originally posted by MazdaspeedFeras
umm from most reports on the track testing of the RX-8 vs 350Z, the RX8 is only a couple tenths behind the 350Z. Yeah its not as fast straight line...so?

Are you serious?

Which track is that?

Not the Best motoring one is it?

Originally posted by Shiri
Are you serious?

Which track is that?

Not the Best motoring one is it?

I think he is talking about Lotus' proving grounds in the UK, were they shoot Top Gear. Read some here:

http://www.topgear.com/content/misc/TV/lap_times/

Well hey, we all bought the 8 knowing it's not the best HP/dollar bargain out there. Mazda's marketing must be doing something right.

I think the 8's selling point is it's uniqueness, not it's power. Rotary engine, suicide doors, 4 real seats, insane redline, etc. Naturally, if the power difference (vs. the competition) becomes *too* large, buyers will begin to grumble.

But for the most part, 8 shoppers are probably more attracted to it's unique attributes and nimble design rather than shopping HP figures and 1/4 mile times. At least I was :)

Originally posted by MazdaspeedFeras
umm from most reports on the track testing of the RX-8 vs 350Z, the RX8 is only a couple tenths behind the 350Z. Yeah its not as fast straight line...so?

What I'm saying is that performance numbers can mitigate (psychologically) lower HP, as was the case with the 3rd generation RX7. The RX8 is down on BOTH, so it has a hill to climb with perception in this regard, which is never the preferred situation in business.

The RX8's situation, with disgruntled owners and would-be-owners, tells us something about what's going on behind the scenes with Mazda: engineering challenges. It's clear to me that if Mazda was readily able to squeeze more out of the renesis, it would have chosen to get the performance numbers closer or equal to the G35/350z. To do this, Mazda would not have to match Nissan's HP figures, since the RX8 is lighter (reference point is the 3rd generation RX7).

Again, for the reasons stated in a previous post, it doesn't matter how different the packages of the two cars are. The two cars practically grew up together, and that perception will remain firmly entrenched in the minds of carbuyers. The fact that the packaging is different gives Mazda (and some owners) some breathing space in its campaign to insist that the two cars are not direct competitors. But Mazda is playng on the risky side of too many aspects of psychology (including MPG); that much is clear. And NO carmaker would have volunteerily put itself in this across-the-board situation were it not for some engineering difficulties.

As people in my business understand clearly, if you got the goods and the substance, you effectively remove yourself from the psychological uphill battle.

Originally posted by Shiri
The RX8 is more of a competitor with the G35c, not really the Z. Z is in another league altogether, boosted or unboosted.


To make my point, let's switch the viewing lens. Forget about the Mazda and focus on Nissan. If you're a Nissan strategist a few years ago, what are you thinking? You're thinking about SEAMLESS connections from the Altima to the Maxima to the G35 to the 350z. Nissan has done a masterful job with this marketing vision, even if their products are severely under-engineered.

If you zoom in closer on the G35-350z connection, you can see how Nissan intended all along for the two cars to battle any and all competitors TOGETHER (same with the Altima-Maxima connection). If you're considering buying the RX8 or BMW 3-series, you can't help but to also look at both the G35 and 350z. At least one of the two Nissans (and possibly both) will imbue your milieu/consideration.

Nissan's product "spacing" is really amazing and something I've never seen before in the auto industry, not even with Toyota. As an RX fan, I FEEL like the RX8 is out there all alone battling two formidable giants. I feel that the RX8 is carrying too great a weight/burden on its shoulders. An RX8 coupe or RX7 would create a similar two-car attack to better face Nissan. Unless the RX8 and rotary are only side-shows for Mazda's real focus: the 3, miata, and 6.

Originally posted by terbeaux
Can you say triple rotor?



Can you say "Not Possible".

Think about it ..the thing that makes it a renesis...Makes it IMPOSSIBLE to have a 3 rotor engine.

And if by some great means physics can be denied and they did a 3 rotor it would get 8 MPG.

If you want to increase the displacement the way to go is make a 1.4, 1.5 or 1.6 liter renesis. This should be able to be done by increasing the rotor width, which SHOULD be possible by changing the housings, etc.

Zero, nice to see some of your posts again. I don't know if I just haven't read what you've written lately or if you have been away.
I am hoping that if Mazda does bring back the 7, they do something in the mold of the Lotus Elise. Shit, the current Renesis has higher HP than the tweaked Toyota engine in the Elise--and the Elise's performance numbers are very similar to a stock FD. I am not sure about torque, but it can't be dramatically different. I guess one of the problems would be that the 7 would then cut into the Miata's sales, but personally I don't care. Once again, the key is weight reduction.

Originally posted by Senseny
Zero, nice to see some of your posts again. I don't know if I just haven't read what you've written lately or if you have been away.
I am hoping that if Mazda does bring back the 7, they do something in the mold of the Lotus Elise. Shit, the current Renesis has higher HP than the tweaked Toyota engine in the Elise--and the Elise's performance numbers are very similar to a stock FD. I am not sure about torque, but it can't be dramatically different. I guess one of the problems would be that the 7 would then cut into the Miata's sales, but personally I don't care. Once again, the key is weight reduction.


Thanks Sensey...

Actually C & D's new issue has the lotus elise pulling 0-60 in 4.3 seconds, 70-0 in 160 feet, 1/4 mile in 13.2 @ 104, lateral G's in 1.06 (the highest ever recorded). Standing 5-60 in 5.8 The torque in the elise is 133.

The FD was probably even more impressive in 1992 than the Elise is today, but there is not much of a comparison in performance. The elise will win every single contest, EXCEPT top speed. The Elise tops at 140. Mod potential is another story.

Now consider a 2450 lbs Miata sized car with a 238 HP renesis engine and good gearing... you should have similar #'s as the lotus interms of acceleration and if Mazda could make the Rx-7 in 1992 have a .98 skid pad (the same as a 2004 Z06), I would think they could build a Lotus Killer and quite frankly, The FD was the closest thing to a street legal race car..until the Elise arrived...

I say its Time for us to regain our glory.

Damn, I knew the Elise was good, but I didn't realize it tested that well. You are right, there is no comparison with a stock FD.
I agree about the regaining glory, because if we don't I forsee a situation where in a little over 4 years I sell both of my rotaries and buy an Elise. Of course I would prefer it if Mazda has a "Lotus Killer" and I could stay with rotary power.

Well, think of it this way -

Start with the RX-8 platform. Remove two doors and two seats, shorten the car a bit, and scrap the extra bracing needed when there was no B-pillar. Now you have a car that weighs ~2600lbs and still has 238hp. This car would only cost around $25k because of the diet, would be able to hang with anything this side of a Vette in a straight line, and out-corner and outbrake anything short of an Elise.

Now combine this with the expectation that the next RX-7 will be priced in the mid $30k range. That will give it nearly $10k in improvments over the car I just described! With $10k of weight reduction and engine enhancements, they should easily be able to produce a 2500lb 300+hp car!

Still, I'd love to see the stripped down $25k car. That would really be in the spirit of what the RX-7 was all about in the first place: smoking Z's and Porsches for alot less money. I know, I know, it'll never happen because it would be priced too closely to the Miata, but I can dream, can't I?

I like what m477 is saying. And such a rotary coupe, whether it be an RX8 coupe or RX7, would together with the 4-door RX8 be a more significant threat to the G35/350z combo.

Originally posted by m477
Well, think of it this way -

Start with the RX-8 platform. Remove two doors and two seats, shorten the car a bit, and scrap the extra bracing needed when there was no B-pillar. Now you have a car that weighs ~2600lbs and still has 238hp. This car would only cost around $25k because of the diet, would be able to hang with anything this side of a Vette in a straight line, and out-corner and outbrake anything short of an Elise.


:D LOL, why not a 2000lb car then? You can't shave weight that drasticly by just removing two doors and the backseat. The G35 has tons of sound damping material, two extra doors, back seats, huge trunk and other misc. luxury item and it barely weights 130lbs over the 350Z. You don't be able to achieve drastic weight saving unless you go with exotic materials (titanium, carbon fiber) or build a new chasis.

A 350z/G35 sedan comparison would irrelevant as the 350z was made to be much more rigid than the G35 sedan, which came at a cost of weight.

A much more relevant comparison would be the G35c, which is much more similar to the 350z than the sedan. The weight difference there is ~200lbs. So, add to to that the weight of 2 doors, PLUS the weight extra bracing that was added to compensate for the lack of a B-pillar, and 300lb of weight loss is entirely reasonable.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
:D LOL, why not a 2000lb car then? You can't shave weight that drasticly by just removing two doors and the backseat. The G35 has tons of sound damping material, two extra doors, back seats, huge trunk and other misc. luxury item and it barely weights 130lbs over the 350Z. You don't be able to achieve drastic weight saving unless you go with exotic materials (titanium, carbon fiber) or build a new chasis.

Come on, give him a break. 2850 lb is doable.

ONLY 130 lb heavier than the 350z? The 350z is already heavier than it should be.

2850 is not too far off from the base model anyway. You are looking at around a 50lb difference. I doubt going to a two door model would actually lighten it that much over a base model.

Originally posted by murix
2850 is not too far off from the base model anyway. You are looking at around a 50lb difference. I doubt going to a two door model would actually lighten it that much over a base model.

Remove doors, seats, and shorten the the chassis.

Originally posted by zerobanger
Can you say "Not Possible".

Think about it ..the thing that makes it a renesis...Makes it IMPOSSIBLE to have a 3 rotor engine.

And if by some great means physics can be denied and they did a 3 rotor it would get 8 MPG.

If you want to increase the displacement the way to go is make a 1.4, 1.5 or 1.6 liter renesis. This should be able to be done by increasing the rotor width, which SHOULD be possible by changing the housings, etc.

It is possible and Mazda has already built it. Its called the 20B triple rotor. It produces more torque too. Who said is has to be a renesis? I'm sure the engineers could get better than 8mpg out of it giving enough time and money. Question is does Mazda want to be king of the hill HP wise or sales wise? I think they care more about the $$. Time will tell.

What I'm saying is Mazda won't be king of the hill sales-wise unless it does something about either the HP or the performance numbers. And the distance is about to increase.

Originally posted by terbeaux
It is possible and Mazda has already built it. Its called the 20B triple rotor. It produces more torque too. Who said is has to be a renesis? I'm sure the engineers could get better than 8mpg out of it giving enough time and money. Question is does Mazda want to be king of the hill HP wise or sales wise? I think they care more about the $$. Time will tell.

Its never going to happen. The 3 rotor engine could not be a renesis and the renesis is the only reason the rotary is back. A 20B could not even pass US emission standards of the early 90's (its a japanese cosmo only engine).

There is no way in hell the 3 rotor engine could pass the current emissions standards and further more, it would get 8-10 MPG and mazda could do nothing about it.

The best hope is forced induction or larger rotors, sorry to rain on your parade.

Infiniti is not in competition with Mazda. They are not responding to sales of Mazda, they are responding to the BMW competition. Look at what BMW (or for that matter Lexus and Merc) is coming out with in the next few years. Bigger engine, more horsepower. Infiniti is just trying to maintain and capture new market share from BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus.

Infiniti is making a good head way into the lux market and they want to maintain or capture new market share. I seriously doubt the RX8 was in the sights of Infiniti planners.


350Z is another story. What's the news on it's 2005-2006 upgrade? Personally I think the RX8 have other attributes other than HP that makes it copetitive with the 350z. I seriously doubt Mazda will do anything drastic unless the Nissan does something drastic. There are ways to increase sales other than improve vehicle performance, i.e. incentives and other marketing gimicks.

Originally posted by m477
A 350z/G35 sedan comparison would irrelevant as the 350z was made to be much more rigid than the G35 sedan, which came at a cost of weight.

A much more relevant comparison would be the G35c, which is much more similar to the 350z than the sedan. The weight difference there is ~200lbs. So, add to to that the weight of 2 doors, PLUS the weight extra bracing that was added to compensate for the lack of a B-pillar, and 300lb of weight loss is entirely reasonable.

It seems people would try to make a racecar out of anything.

The G35c wasn't made for that, and neither is the RX8. While the RX8 started of as an already light car, it doesn't have the power to run the G35c if they swapped engines. The VQ engine in the RX8 on the other hand may probably make it faster (and maybe even more economical?), but how that would affect the paperweight chassis is something else. It probably couldn't handle to save its life.

Here's another way of looking at it, the only way for the RX8 to improve performance is indeed to increase the engine capacity to either FI or SC, while maintaining a chassis rigid enough to deal with the excess power (which I think it could). However, this will be at the cost of handling, which even more money and research will need to be made by Mazda to co-ordinate these factors. The Z is heavier because it is stronger and was built to handle conditions beyond its current setup.

Otherwise, you could reduce the weight of the RX8 by investing in lightweight parts and remove unnecessary redundancy like paddings, side protection bars, AC and so on.

Mazda decided to go with the latter with their Mazdaspeed RX8 for some reason. I believe increasing the power would be too troublesome for Mazda which would also compromise what the RX8 was set out to be, lightweight with good handling at the more usable everyday driving situation (0-62mph, 10-40mph, 30-50mph etc...).

Some workshops here in Japan have already produced some FI kits for the RX8, but the problem is the RX8 is not selling, and neither are these kits (especially if they don't produce the kind of gains that other cars like the Silvia, GTRs, G35Cs and Zs are getting).

You people should already know that light cars would be advantageous in a lot of start-stop situation like autoX, and heavier cars would excel on mid to large size circuits where they could accelerate at high speed on the straight and turn confidently at high speed.

That is what separates the RX8 and the Z, each serves different applications. Now if the RX8 can compete with the equally light S2000 in autoX, I'd be impressed. Or, if the RX8 can compete with the Z on the big circuits, I'd probably respect the RX8 a lot more. The test that TOP GEAR did with both cars were in very different conditions, the Z drove in the wet while the RX8 drove in the dry. Heck, the NSX-R was around the same time (it also did it in the wet), that doesn't make both cars as fast as the Honda does it?

Right now, I don't think the RX8 was really made to be good at autoX or race circuits just like the G35C. Mazda had probably left it up to the aftermarket parts market to play around with the car and see what 3rd party companies can do to improve the power/handling.

Nissan cars are very receptive to mods, Mazda rotories aren't (sorry to burst your bubbles scorp76). At least not for now.

Originally posted by zerobanger
Its never going to happen. The 3 rotor engine could not be a renesis and the renesis is the only reason the rotary is back. A 20B could not even pass US emission standards of the early 90's (its a japanese cosmo only engine).

There is no way in hell the 3 rotor engine could pass the current emissions standards and further more, it would get 8-10 MPG and mazda could do nothing about it.

The best hope is forced induction or larger rotors, sorry to rain on your parade.

And for the first time ever, I will have to go with ZB.

The 20B is an awesome engine, but in an ugly yakuza car (Cosmo), no thanks.

Originally posted by Shiri
Nissan cars are very receptive to mods, Mazda rotories aren't (sorry to burst your bubbles scorp76). At least not for now. [/B]

I never said they were, and don't give a fuk honestly, so keep my name out of your font.

Shiri finally wrote a reasonable post. But I still think the Nissan is heavier than it needed to be.

Originally posted by Magic8
Infiniti is not in competition with Mazda. They are not responding to sales of Mazda, they are responding to the BMW competition. Look at what BMW (or for that matter Lexus and Merc) is coming out with in the next few years. Bigger engine, more horsepower. Infiniti is just trying to maintain and capture new market share from BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus.

Infiniti is making a good head way into the lux market and they want to maintain or capture new market share. I seriously doubt the RX8 was in the sights of Infiniti planners.


350Z is another story. What's the news on it's 2005-2006 upgrade? Personally I think the RX8 have other attributes other than HP that makes it copetitive with the 350z. I seriously doubt Mazda will do anything drastic unless the Nissan does something drastic. There are ways to increase sales other than improve vehicle performance, i.e. incentives and other marketing gimicks.

That's the beauty of Nissan's product "spacing." Obviously, Infiniti has its sights on BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus. But the link between the G35 and 350z also has allowed Nissan to take all other comers, including the RX8. Nissan's strategy has worked and is allowing them to effectively "cover all bases."

Originally posted by scorp76
I never said they were, and don't give a fuk honestly, so keep my name out of your font.

Oh poor baby :D Talk about sour.

Originally posted by PhineasFellOff
Shiri finally wrote a reasonable post. But I still think the Nissan is heavier than it needed to be.

I think the S2000 is heavier than it needs to be, so are the Porsches and Ferraris.

You have said nothing there.

"Some workshops here in Japan have already produced some FI kits for the RX8, but the problem is the RX8 is not selling, and neither are these kits.........."

The RX-8 is selling plenty well in US (abeit with some heavy discount) but it is certainly selling like a hot cake in Japan. RX-8 has a lot of aftermarket support in Japan, most of them focusing on the chasis, suspension but not so much on big FI.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
"Some workshops here in Japan have already produced some FI kits for the RX8, but the problem is the RX8 is not selling, and neither are these kits.........."

The RX-8 is selling plenty well in US (abeit with some heavy discount) but it is certainly selling like a hot cake in Japan. RX-8 has a lot of aftermarket support in Japan, most of them focusing on the chasis, suspension but not so much on big FI.

Ah, there's a lot of marketing but its not showing on the streets. I know about the bodykits and handling gears, there are some attempts on FI/SC mods though I'm not in the market for an RX8, I have come across quite a number of vendors selling them in the local magazines.

Skylines are doing a lot lot better, saw the most beautiful blue Skyline G35C with the VOLKS RAY TE37 wheels (18 inch). Perhaps there are more RX8 in your area (western side of Tokyo).

Originally posted by shiri
Talk about sour.

Talk about gay.

this is a pretty good discussion. hopefully mazda is watching and reading...

remember, mazda people are not idiots. their marketing might not be as strong as nissan, but they're among the most capable engineering-wise. they're also philosophically different as a company. whereas nissan needs to be concerend w/ mass producing and selling as many cars as possible, sometimes at the sacrifice of engineering and innovations, mazda seems to prefer more of a niche route, going the lengths to churn out more enthusiastic, distinctive, and bold cars that aren't generic. who else puts hand-built engines in a mass-produced car? and that's why mazda always gets the vote over nissan from people like me. plus mazda is riding pretty high these days, and rx-8 is their trophy car, so they're not gonna leave it alone while the competition pulls away

That's a good way of looking at it.

you sure they gonna increase their HP??????? fuck i hate nissian.

spiritR, please watch your language... remember this is a family site... there are quite a few more words that you could use

-strider

We all know the 8 is not designed for power as it is for handling. If you want to drag race, go ahead and buy those cars.
I bought this car knowing it will relatively lack horsepower to competitors. We all know our drives aren't always a drag race. My friends that own cars with more HP couldnt catch me up in the hills where I live. To be honest, the G35 coupe kept up to me. We'll see the new coupe in a couple months!

It's funny that Nissan isn't competing with Mazda but going after B.M.W. and alot of B.M.W. owners are going after the 8. I think they understand that it's not only about power but rather the handling, ride and quality along with the ability to seat 4 people.

Originally posted by Shiri

Nissan cars are very receptive to mods, Mazda rotories aren't (sorry to burst your bubbles scorp76). At least not for now.

Hmm..

maybe you need to re-phrase this? If you want to say the rx-8 engine so far has not been responsive (other than the canzoomer greddy emanage mod) to mods...I'll not comment..but to say mazda rotaries are not receptive to mods is funny as hell.

My 3rd gen stock dyoes at 217 to the wheels. With catback, highflow cat and downpipe dyoes at 266 to the wheels. Hmmm...replace the highflow cat with a midpipe and it went from 266 to 298. Did some timing adjustment and went to 316.

Thats was on a stock engine. Lets not mention larger turbo, porting the engine, pulley's, etc.

The fact is that mazda did an exceptional job getting power out of the renesis. n/a 2nd gens with larger port jobs and all the aftermarket stuff (n/a) have about the same HP as the renesis but way worse gas mileage. Mazda made the renesis very optomized from the factory.

last, mazda can increase the displacement of the rotary to a 1.5 or 1.6. Let them go to a different housing. if they can get 1.5 or 1.6 liters the car would make near 300 HP, 225 Tq, NA.

How is Mazda going after BMW? They are in totally differant leagues.

Originally posted by zerobanger
Hmm..

The fact is that mazda did an exceptional job getting power out of the renesis. n/a 2nd gens with larger port jobs and all the aftermarket stuff (n/a) have about the same HP as the renesis but way worse gas mileage. Mazda made the renesis very optomized from the factory.

last, mazda can increase the displacement of the rotary to a 1.5 or 1.6. Let them go to a different housing. if they can get 1.5 or 1.6 liters the car would make near 300 HP, 225 Tq, NA.

just by adding a few .2 of liters mazda could get that MUCH?? what is the gas mileage like if that were made??

man that sounds so hot!

Originally posted by zerobanger
Hmm..

maybe you need to re-phrase this? If you want to say the rx-8 engine so far has not been responsive (other than the canzoomer greddy emanage mod) to mods...I'll not comment..but to say mazda rotaries are not receptive to mods is funny as hell.

Yeah you're right, I should rephrase that. I was probably talking about the RX8 as compared to most of the Nissan cars that were using the VQ engine.

And of course the FI cars will gain a lot more power than their NA counterparts.

PS. The FD is a bitch to fix isn't it?

The G and the Z are very different cars. A friend has gone through both within a one year period. They're VERY different and unless you're a nissan fanboy (most of the population isn't) you would seperate the two cars very far apart in your mind.

The VQ is easier to mod becuase it's tried and true. Twin turbo kits, AEBS's 4.3 liter stroker kit, etc etc. It's a PITA to work on and everything is expensive (look up Nismo cams + labor some time)

The FD is a bitch to fix. 30 feet of vacuum tube. Look up "rats nest" and "vacuum hose diagram" on www.rx7club.com and see w hat I mean. :)

Originally posted by Shiri

PS. The FD is a bitch to fix isn't it?

how hard could it be to fix? a car is a car.

why does this post ask me for user id, pass, and domain? (sorry to hijack).

Anyways, I don't think we need to worry about what Nissan is doing. If I were Mazda, I would go at the pace they're going right now. There's no need to panic. Rotary-powered cars will always have a strong following. Of course, piston engines will be more responsive to the aftermarket; they have a following dating back to, I guess whenever. Rotary engines haven't been out as long (remember the Cosmo 110S? Sigh ;)...), so it's natural for slow development. When looking for power increases in rotary engines, engineers and technicians have to start off on a clean slate, especially with this new Renesis 13B-MSP. The production engine hasn't been out that long, and it has employs brand new technology that has yet to be understood. Mazda shouldn't rush a power increase for the RX-8. Remember the horsepower wars of the early 90's? How many of those twin-turbocharged cars are left? None. Reliability issues became the new problem, forcing Nissan, Toyota, and Mazda to consider newer and more reliable options. Forced induction for the RX-8 would be nice, but I'd rather not have another war. I'm happy with what I have now, and I wouldn't change the power rating just because someone else adds a few extra ponies to their sports car. The V35 is a refreshing car, and it probably needs the power increase to offset its hefty weight, clunky drivetrain and faulty suspension. Same thing with the Z33. These two cars are FAT. I'm talking Tanya Parker fat. And she's analagous to Shamu. We needn't be worried folks. And as for asking to sign in again, my computer does that to me too. What IS the deal :confused:?

Agreed, SM06. I would rather see Mazda focus on bulletproof reliability for the RENESIS before upgrading the HP.

What I would like to see in the RX-8 is a stripper version with a better HP/weight ratio. Adding lightness is preferable to adding HP, and it can be done with zero sacrifice in reliability.

350Z buyers are a very different breed than RX-8 buyers. I just don't see the same person being perfectly happy with either car. You either "get" the 8, or you don't. And, frankly, if the 8 weren't on the market, I would be looking at GTOs right now, and not the Z. It does nothing for me. They could give it 350hp and my opinion would remain the same.

I also question whether Nissan is actually increasing power or merely increading its rating. Maxima HP numbers have bounced around all over the place in the last 10 years, but the cars perform about the same regardless of Nissan's quoted numbers. Mazda had the integrity to correct the 8's HP numbers when they didn't deliver. I doubt Nissan would do the same.

T.

I dont understand why people are crying so much about the HP claims of Mazda / performance numbers of the RX-8. Mazda said 250 HP for the RX-8, then drop the rating to 238 HP, and nw some say it is closer to 220 HP .... Great!!! So What? have ANYBODY noticed that the performance numbers from Mazda and countless Magazines that have road-tested the RX-8, have NOT changed ???

Also, yes the G35/350Z have more HP/Torque ... but the are only 2 tenths of a second faster on the Quater-Mile, and they can't even approach the RX-8's handling numbers!!!!

Really, fpr you guys that are SO interested in the HP per Dollar ratio ... you guys are looking at the WRONG Manufacturers ... Ford offers a great buy ... the SVT Mustang Cobra can be had for $32,500 (with vrey little ngotiating) and it brings STOCK 390 Horsepower and 390 lb-ft of Torque.

Originally posted by Truss
I also question whether Nissan is actually increasing power or merely increading its rating. Maxima HP numbers have bounced around all over the place in the last 10 years, but the cars perform about the same regardless of Nissan's quoted numbers. Mazda had the integrity to correct the 8's HP numbers when they didn't deliver. I doubt Nissan would do the same.

T.

A lot of the reason for a neglible increase in performance between different generations of Maximas in the 90s is because every time Nissan would increase the horsepower, they would also increase wheel size and weight. The wheels went from 40lb, 15" wheels in the 3rd and some 4th gen Maximas to 42lb, 16" wheels in the other 4th gen and some 5th gen Maximas, to 50lb, 17" wheels in other 5th generation Maximas. The fact that the more powerful Maximas perform just about as well as their forbears, if not a little better, is proof that the power did indeed increase. Look here (http://www.maxima.org/shoptalk/sub_readingroom/3.0_comparisons/index.shtml) for a more detailed explanation. The 2002-2003 manual transmission Maximas run low to mid 14s and the automatic versions run mid to high 14s. I don't know much about the newest generation of Maxima, but I would imagine that it's not much slower than the '02-'03s, if at all.

Before you start bashing Nissan about power ratings and saying "Well, at least Mazda admitted something was wrong" with the Renesis's output, you might want to read your own tech forum. Although Mazda did "correct" the power rating, the true power rating of the RX8 is about 10% less than its rated 238hp. Interestingly enough, this is the maximum discrepancy allowed by law. Racing Beat did an engine dyno of the Renesis and came up with 211CHP, which falls neatly in line with the dyno results of 175-185rwhp that many members have gotten when considering that an RX8 should lose a bit less power through the drivetrain than cars using a conventional steel driveshaft. Personally, I think that both Nissan and Mazda should be forced to state the true horsepower figures (A "240hp" V6 Altima and a "255hp" Maxima both dyno in the 205 to 210fwhp range and, consequently, both accelerate nearly equally. A similar situation exists between the G35 Sedan and the "more powerful" G35 Coupe.), but since they are doing it within the bounds of the law, neither will be forced to any time soon. Sad, really...

Originally posted by Truss
Also, yes the G35/350Z have more HP/Torque ... but the are only 2 tenths of a second faster on the Quater-Mile, and they can't even approach the RX-8's handling numbers!!!!

The best 350Z times are in the 13.6-13.8 second range. The average times are in the 13.8-14.3 second range, and all of the stock Z 1/4 mile results that I have have trap speeds in the 101-104 mph range. The best RX8 time that I've seen is 14.32@95.XX by Judge Ito, with the other "best" times ranging from 14.5-14.9. Average times seem to be low 15s, and most of the RX8 traps are in the mid 90s. Given equal drivers, the Z is about .6 seconds faster in the 1320', which is a significant distance given the times that these cars are running. The Z doesn't handle quite as well as the RX8, but has enough of a power advantage that it still manages to at least stay even with the '8 even on the shortest, twistiest tracks. On a long track, the Z's greater power would give it an even greater advantage. The RX8 is a truly great car, there's no doubt about that, but letting your enthusiasm for one model of car blind you to its weaknesses and to the strengths of competing models is rather foolish.

Originally posted by Truss
Mazda had the integrity to correct the 8's HP numbers when they didn't deliver. I doubt Nissan would do the same.
T.

Don't be so confident about either one...

I'll throw in something way off base here, but since a 3 rotor engine can't be done (currently) because of mpg issues, how about an option of an 8 with a "regular" engine in it. This could add a ton more hp and torque. I know all of the rx cars are identified with the rotary engine, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. Obviously, a regular engine would add weight, but if you shorten the car a bit and take away the back seats, it could be done, and even though it would no longer have the rotary engine, it would still probably look better than anything else oout there.

Originally posted by mjd
I'll throw in something way off base here, but since a 3 rotor engine can't be done (currently) because of mpg issues, how about an option of an 8 with a "regular" engine in it. This could add a ton more hp and torque. I know all of the rx cars are identified with the rotary engine, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. Obviously, a regular engine would add weight, but if you shorten the car a bit and take away the back seats, it could be done, and even though it would no longer have the rotary engine, it would still probably look better than anything else oout there.

An RX-8 shortened by removing the rear seat area. This so the weight is reduced to compensate for the addition of a high horsepower but heavier piston engine. I think we have just created every other sports car built. What's the point?

Originally posted by mjd
I know all of the rx cars are identified with the rotary engine, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. Obviously, a regular engine would add weight, but if you shorten the car a bit and take away the back seats, it could be done, and even though it would no longer have the rotary engine, it would still probably look better than anything else oout there.

leave the rotary in it and you have an rx-7

Supposedly the 350Z will have 300hp next year, and the 295hp G35C has already been confirmed along with 277hp G35 sedan. Nissan's VQ engine have always been detuned in the first model year and gradually increase power over its production period. Nissan could easily increase the redline to give it more power or tune the ignition timing for the next few years. Turbo VQ might be in the near future as Nissan knows how to do this~ their JGTC cars have been utilizing FI for the last 2 years with very very good results.

Mazda hasn't announce any change for 2005 and I certainly hope they will bump the power back up to AT LEAST 250hp and give it some more usable torque. Increasing the redline for the rotary would be fun, but not very useful 95% of the time. I hope Mazda can find a way to make a clean FI rotary, or make a high-revving V6 light enough to fit the chasis of the RX-8.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
Supposedly the 350Z will have 300hp next year, and the 295hp G35C has already been confirmed along with 277hp G35 sedan.

Only the 35th Anniversary Edition 350Z will have 305hp; the other trims of 350Z (base/enthusiast/performance/touring/track) will keep the 287hp rating for now. The base G35C will also keep its current rating, but a new trim of G35C, the G35 Coupe Sport, will have 295hp and be offered with either an automatic or manual tranny.

Don't even start talking about the Nismo Fairlady GT..... it's got 300+hp but it's also has a $50k+ price tag and offered only in Japan. Nissan hasn't announced changes for the 2005 350Z, but I have a very hard time imaging them having more hp in the luxo-GT G35C than the pure sport 350Z.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
Don't even start talking about the Nismo Fairlady GT..... it's got 300+hp but it's also has a $50k+ price tag and offered only in Japan. Nissan hasn't announced changes for the 2005 350Z, but I have a very hard time imaging them having more hp in the luxo-GT G35C than the pure sport 350Z.

Look at it this way: the "base" level Zs have 287hp while the base G35C has only 280hp, and the Special Edition Z has 305hp while the Special Edition G35C has 295hp. Trim level for trim level, the sportier Z has more power than the G35C, just the way that the marketing department wants it.

Once again, this has turn into an online hp war. Does it really matter which one has more power, let alone which one is better? Put it to rest. I'm staying out of this one :confused:.

Guys, this thread goes on and on and misses the point most of the time.
I drove several times each of the RX-8 (most times), G35c and Z350.
I got the RX-8.
Why?
Three kids in my buildings' parking lot knew today: "This is such a cool car!" said the little girl after all of them rushed to my car once parked and start touching it.
You think they would run to or from a noisy Z or G35c? I bet they would run away or simply not care (they were 4-5 y/o, no HP or other hi-tech knowledge yet).
So, the point is, kids have instincts - when you grow-up and lose them, you get a Z (for HP, tuning, etc.) or G35c (for HP, prestige, etc.). Logic kicks in and we make-up reasons to replace the lost intuition.
So don't worry so much what Mazda is going to do, they will do something to keep us happy and bring more happy people to the Zoom Zoom family :o)

Cheers!

PS I did tell the kids not to touch the car because it will not be "cool" anymore. I'll see tomorrow if it worked :o)

Why is everyone concerned about horsepower? Handling is this car's strong point. I've always thought of horsepower as a crutch for poor driving skills (unless you're drag racing). The fact that this car can keep up with, and beat in some circumstances, the Z and G35 means that Mazda's doing the right thing. I would be happy with more chassis tuning. In my opinion, horsepower is one of the last things they should be worrying about. I guess the average consumer doesn't care about all of this, oh well.

That's very true, especially since the Integra Type R beat the RX-8 in the Best Motoring video with less horsepower. A Lotus Elise would handily beat any of these cars with only 180hp, and a motorcycle with puny horsepower can beat some auto monsters.

That's very true, especially since the Integra Type R beat the RX-8 in the Best Motoring video with less horsepower. A Lotus Elise would handily beat any of these cars with only 180hp, and a motorcycle with puny horsepower can beat some auto monsters.

It's called power-to-weight ratio ;).

That's very true, especially since the Integra Type R beat the RX-8 in the Best Motoring video with less horsepower. A Lotus Elise would handily beat any of these cars with only 180hp, and a motorcycle with puny horsepower can beat some auto monsters.

I think you missed the point. All the things you mention are examples of good power-to-weight ratios. I do think decreasing the weight of the 8 should be a priority though.

An effective way to reduce the weight of the car is to turn the RX-8 into a coupe (4th gen. RX-7?). That may not happen for a long time. I believe the RX-8 fared quite well against these powerful, lightweight cars. If there were a modern version of the FD3S in the mix, I believe it would've at least achieved 2nd place :).

In terms of power compared to competitors, every RX-7 made has been underpowered including the 3rd gen. The 3G was 255 when its competitors were pushing 320. What makes this any different. HP has never been the selling point of a rotary. Again, if hp is your thing, this is the wrong car. I do not really think Mazda is too concerned. Did you see them too concerned with the Miata when all the new more powerful competitors appeared? Not too much. Mazda has never been a company to compete on hp alone.
no not really. the last rx-7s reliably made from 280 up, and the STOCK competitors coming out were at the same level. the rx always weighed the least though, so it always had the better power to weight ratio. horsepower (not torque) has always been a rotary highlight because it offers high hp for low displacement and size. look at the rx-2,3, repu. they were ahead of competitors all along. rx-7 wasnt underpowered, it was at the same level of performance with less power, meaning the rx-7 was more advanced.

I would say a larger displacement MSP and/or FI coming soon to the 8, and a 7 coming within 2-3 yrs.

A larger displacement for the 8 = even large fuel consumption. Arrghh... this make the H2 look like a Honda Insight!

A larger displacement for the 8 = even large fuel consumption. Arrghh... this make the H2 look like a Honda Insight!
lol, not quite that bad, but yeah MPG could and probably will get worse before it gets better.