Restoring Original Horsepower?!?!?! [Archive]

Gord96BRG

06-09-2004, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by HollywoodHall
MY BOY AT THE LOCAL MAZDA DEALERSHIP SAID HIS GUY IN THE BACK ( A SERVICE TECH ) KNEW OF A WAY TO ELECTRONICALLY RESTORE THE ORIGINAL 280 H.P. IT HAS WHEN IT IS RELEASED OVER SEAS.. I.E. JAPAN// BY MESSING WITH THE COMPUTER INTERNALLY... HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD OF THIS. OR THINK IT IS POSSIBLE... BECAUSE 280 H.P. VS 238 H.P. WOULD KICK SERIOUS A$$!!!

YEA YOU MAY NOT PASS YOUR STATE INSPECTION.. BUT IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE YOU STILL CAN!!!

SOMEONE GIVE ME SOME INSIGHT!?

Your boy is wrong. The Japanese rating is around 250, but remember that Japanese horses aren't the same size as SAE horses - the horsepower rating systems (JIS, SAE, DIN in Europe) are slightly different, so the exact same engine will generate 3 different horsepower numbers depending on the rating method used (but only varying by a few HP).

(Japanese gasoline is NOT different - it's unleaded, and their octane rating system is different, so their 98 octane is actually equivalent to our 91 octane.)

The ECU IS reprogrammable, but it's also encrypted. Mazda dealers get the ECU flash updates from Mazda in Japan - even dealers can NOT just fiddle with a few parameters, and Mazda is not providing ECU flash updates that are not emissions compliant.

The missing HP have been well documented here - the problem is that the US, for 2004, extended the catalytic converter life requirements from 100K miles to 120K miles. In durability testing of the original 247 hp ECU tune, Mazda found that the exhaust gas temperature at high load and high rpm was too high, and that the catalytic converters would likely not last the required 120K miles. To remedy this, they richened the mixture at high rpm high load conditions to lower the exhaust gas temperature, with the byproduct that the peak HP dropped (to no more than 238).

SO - Mazda will never be giving us back the lost HP - because of US requirements for catalytic converter durability, the legally can not. I suppose in the future, if they could equip future Renesis cars with a cat converter that can withstand the higher EGT, then they could restore the lost HP, but owners of current cars would not get that from Mazda.

By replacing the Mazda ECU or installing a piggyback programmable computer like the Canzoomer or Greddy E-Manage, an individual can lean out the mixture and get 20 or 25 hp back. However, they WILL sacrifice the life of their cat converter.

Regards,
Gordon

93rdcurrent

06-09-2004, 02:08 PM

Thanks Gordon, you took the words outa my mouth.

And the sacrifice of the cat. is acceptable IMHO. I will be getting the CZ stage III and a turbo next summer. Then I will have an excess of the stock and pre-release hp figures. I will also be scrificing my stock cat and muffler since the turbo and upgraded ECU will destroy them anyway. :)

rex

06-09-2004, 02:08 PM

The WDS (Worldwide Diagnostic System), which is the system Mazda dealers use to program the PCM, contains maps for all locales (Japan, Europe, US etc.), hence "worldwide". It's technically possible for a US dealer to install a Japanese map on a US spec car. Whether that would increase performance isn't entirely clear because as far as I know, nobody has done it. I explored this in depth with my Mazda dealer and he said that it would be a federal offense to install a non-US map because it would violate federal emissions law. Actually, since emissions vary from state to state it's probably the CARB mandated catalytic converter lifetime that would be affected, but the dealer made it very clear that he would not do this. Still, it would be interesting to get a US spec car with the JDM PCM programming on a dyno, just to see if there is a difference.

In my opinion, you're going to see better performance gains from after market performance modifications such as canzoomer's unit than from Mazda. The in-depth analysis that has been done on the standard Mazda maps, even the latests ones, show that there's plenty of room for optimization.

PhineasFellOff

06-09-2004, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by HollywoodHall
MY BOY AT THE LOCAL MAZDA DEALERSHIP SAID HIS GUY IN THE BACK ( A SERVICE TECH )

I get the part where you are the father of a son who works at the local Mazda dealership?

But the second part confuses me. Are you saying your son is gay and has a "guy" partner? Or are you saying he has something called a "guy" in his back like some sort of bodily defect or something? And what in the hell does that have to do with a service tech!!! That one really has me stumped.

And boy, aren't YOU possessive.

Greg

06-09-2004, 05:24 PM

Kinda off the subject but why do people get so offended when people use caps lock? This is our modern computer generation I guess. I mean when I see a billboard on the side of the road I dont hold my ears or nearly have an accident... I just don't understand the point. It's simply big letters ooohh please no not big letters your bursting my eardrums or hurting my eyes! Please-to all computer geeks: Get over yourselves and your made up disease.

Sunbyrne

06-09-2004, 05:32 PM

People dislike CAPS LOCK because it is, in fact, measurably more difficult to read it. Since all the letters have uniform height, it's harder (slower) to recognize words, and impacts reading rate.

Some people, sports car drivers in particular, do not react well to being slowed down. :-)

Greg

06-09-2004, 05:44 PM

"...impacts reading rate" I wonder why its used for advertising when you are driving 75 mph on the highway? In any case I accept this argument better than calling it "yelling". Also when were in kindergarten don't we all read and write in caps? Wouldn't you think that would mean its easier to read?

downshift

06-09-2004, 05:50 PM

But we're not in kindergarten anymore :(
Plus since when is there an ad that has more than a sentence long of all-caps characters? It may look ok in the ads but it is different on the computer screen. It's been widely known that typing in all caps is to express yelling. If everybody is typing in caps, how do you express that?

Gord96BRG

06-09-2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Greg
Wouldn't you think that would mean its easier to read?

No, it means that kindergarten kids have only begun to learn to recognize the shapes of the letters, and they start out with consistent (upper case) letters just because it's easier to learn one form of the letters before introducing alternate forms. I think we've all progressed beyond kindergarten here...

This certainly isn't the only forum where people complain about posts in all caps - it's pretty much universal. It's not just computer geeks, unless we all are computer geeks. IF we all are computer geeks, then we're entitled to our own made-up computer-geek pet peeves, and non-geeks can go stuff themselves. ;) If a forum member insists on using all caps, they can expect that they will quickly start being ignored entirely.

Regards,
Gordon

Greg

06-09-2004, 06:00 PM

O.k. I understand you Gord. And sorry, I wasn't really addressing anyone in particular and certainly not this forum which I love. I was just commenting in general. My only real comment is to ask if its really painful or insulting to read capital letters.

ptiemann

06-09-2004, 06:21 PM

I thought capitalization is for IMPORTANT words. As you would in spoken language say an individual word a bit LOUDER. Is that so difficult to comprehend?

By composing my entire contribution in caps, I assume that my whole message is overly important and, yes, it's perceived as LOUD.

It's also true that it's harder to read.

THE ADVANCED CAPITALIZER THERFORE

ALWAYS PUTS DOUBLE SPACES AND

AN EXTRA BLANK LINE BETWEEN HIS IMPORTANT

CONTRIBUTION.

Boy, my throat is sore now.

Deslock

06-09-2004, 06:27 PM

The EVOLV concept car had 280 peak hp and an 11k redline. I doubt the stock components on a production RX-8 would be able to sustain that engine speed and output for long.

JimW

06-09-2004, 07:08 PM

Well said about the reason Mazda detuned the RX8, Gordon. I knew you would step in at some point. As Canzoomer and other companies get closer to fine tuning the ecu for maximum power, there really is no reason to wait or pin your hopes on Mazda developing a durable catilytic converter and reflash. As it would be quite expensive to purchase this from a dealer to begin with and the Canzoomer and other like modifications will eventually develop much more power for far less money than the original spec of 248 H.P. at the crank!

PhineasFellOff

06-09-2004, 07:10 PM

You better be right, JimW.

ranger4277

06-09-2004, 07:40 PM

Why does everybody have to speak so staunchly against such things. How would you know? Mazda engineers built the damn thing and they did originally quote the power at 280 when it was first unveiled. Yes, we have our forum experts who have messed with the maps and tried to patch our original power, and we have our self proclaimed sages of absolute truth who are always correct... but isn't there a remote possibility there might be tricks we don't know about? Sure a degree of speculation is warranted, but I'm going to at least keep an open mind. Thanks for the new rumor HollywoodHall. It used to be rumors like that that made this forum interesting and provoked some constructive conversation. (maybe i'm just bitter over all the boring reposts.. this forum was in its pinnicle just before the 8 reached our shores and we knew next to nothing)

And feel free to use caps lock all you want man. It may be annoying but there is no law against yelling and being annoying.

neit_jnf

06-09-2004, 07:58 PM

The first side port renesis in the RX-01 was rated at 220 PS, the rx-evolv was rated at 280 PS and the final Japanese version of the RX-8 is rated at 250 PS. I believe the 250 rating is possible to attain and surpass with proper ECU tuning. Add a tuned exhaust, light flywheel and pullies and some more ecu tricks to match and the 280 maybe even more could be possible.

Gord96BRG

06-09-2004, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by ranger4277
Mazda engineers built the damn thing and they did originally quote the power at 280 when it was first unveiled.

And feel free to use caps lock all you want man. It may be annoying but there is no law against yelling and being annoying.

As mentioned, it was only the RX-Evolv that was quoted at 280 - and it was never certified for emissions or durability, that was just a number thrown out by Mazda. The RX-8 was never quoted at anywhere near 280 - the original number was 250, the production number was 247, and the revised number is 238. Mazda has told us exactly why the number was reduced from 247 to 238. They're the ones who have explained why they can not provide more than 238 hp and remain emissions legal with the current hardware. Canzoomer is pretty explicit about his modifications NOT being emissions legal as far as cat durability goes.

(Yeah, he can use all caps if he wants, man, no law against it. Everyone will just ignore him, though, so I don't see why he would want to get everyone pissed off at him.)

Regards,
Gordon

JimW

06-09-2004, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by PhineasFellOff
You better be right, JimW.
"Huh", What's that supposed to mean. I better be right or.... what! It has nothing to do with me! It's all in the companies who are developing the aftermarket performance modifications.

PhineasFellOff

06-09-2004, 09:25 PM

I'm not talking about aftermarket. I'm talking about Mazda making steady increases/improvements over the next 4 to 6 years.

JimW

06-10-2004, 07:37 AM

Yes, well it would be smart of them to do it. It seems that most people expected and want more power out of this car and some would be buyers turned away because of the lack thereof, although they still don't know what they are missing. It would be interesting to see what they offer in the future and if current owners could benefit as well. If it isn't much more costly than aftermarket products, delivers comparable performance and a warranty is offered, it would be a desirable option, but by that time most of our warranty would be expired.

HollywoodHall

06-10-2004, 10:05 AM

this forum has turned into a forum about using caps! what the heck!..... who cares.... caps / not capped.. it really doesnt matter. unless you have the brain function of a 3 yr old, or are really high when your on this your reading speed should not be affected by a CAPLOCKED phrase... get over it.... seriously. IF SEEING SOMEONE WRITE IN CAPS RUINS YOUR DAY. THEN YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE PROBLEMS. FIND SOMETHING MORE WORTHWHILE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. LIKE THE AMOUNT OF MONEY IT COSTS TO KEEP THESE RX8 MACHINES FUELED WITH GASOLINE NOW-A-DAYS.........

flatso

06-10-2004, 11:09 AM

"Mazda found that the exhaust gas temperature at high load and high rpm was too high, and that the catalytic converters would likely not last the required 120K miles. To remedy this, they richened the mixture at high rpm high load conditions to lower the exhaust gas temperature, with the byproduct that the peak HP dropped (to no more than 238)."

Why does richening the mixture which I assume means adding more fuel then air lower exhaust temps and power? I would think it would have the opposite effect. Can one of you smart guys explain this. Thanks

zoom44

06-10-2004, 12:24 PM

the fuel doesn't burn and exits the motor in a liquid form qhich helps keep the cat cooler. one thing not mentioned is the effect california law has on all of this. see another way to prolong cat life would be tomove the cat farther from the engine so the gases could cool a little before entering the car. however CA law says the cat has to be up to operating temps from a cold start within 5 minutes. so in order to meet that requirement you have to keep the CAT close. in fact most manufacturers moved their cats forward n order to meet this requirement.

flatso

06-10-2004, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by zoom44
the fuel doesn't burn and exits the motor in a liquid form qhich helps keep the cat cooler. one thing not mentioned is the effect california law has on all of this. see another way to prolong cat life would be tomove the cat farther from the engine so the gases could cool a little before entering the car. however CA law says the cat has to be up to operating temps from a cold start within 5 minutes. so in order to meet that requirement you have to keep the CAT close. in fact most manufacturers moved their cats forward n order to meet this requirement.

so thats why the mileage is so crappy the fuel isn't being burnt efficiently at higher RPM's. It just goes out the tailpipe. How can this not effect emmissions I wonder?

MTLbroker

06-10-2004, 12:59 PM

It's not the horsepower. Is there any way to get more torque out of this engine? (I know torque at the wheel is dependent on gearing. I'm talking about torque at the crank.)

Now that is a pursuit worth pursuing.

zoom44

06-10-2004, 01:54 PM

YES THERE IS! It's called FI and it is just around the next corner......hehehhe

zoom44

06-10-2004, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by flatso
so thats why the mileage is so crappy the fuel isn't being burnt efficiently at higher RPM's. It just goes out the tailpipe. How can this not effect emmissions I wonder?

ahh but it does so then they "de-tune" it with Kflash and so we get what we have now- 238ish HP,flooding issues,cat problems, O2 sensor problems etc. then a bunch of flashes to get it all back in line. read the May issue of RXTuner for more info on the flashes.

Japan8

06-10-2004, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by MazdaspeedFeras
japanese spec hp rating are always going to be higher because their engines use leaded gasoline so they can run at higher power. (leaded gasoline = >100octane)

crap detector alert!! crap detector alert!!

Um no. Japan uses unleaded fuel, diesel, and natural gas only.

from our dear from Gordon

(Japanese gasoline is NOT different - it's unleaded, and their octane rating system is different, so their 98 octane is actually equivalent to our 91 octane.)

As Gordon said... Japanese gasoline does not have a higher octane rating that US gasoline. Do a search for the threads that beat this horse to death.

from our dear from Gordon

The ECU IS reprogrammable, but it's also encrypted. Mazda dealers get the ECU flash updates from Mazda in Japan - even dealers can NOT just fiddle with a few parameters, and Mazda is not providing ECU flash updates that are not emissions compliant.

The missing HP have been well documented here - the problem is that the US, for 2004, extended the catalytic converter life requirements from 100K miles to 120K miles. In durability testing of the original 247 hp ECU tune, Mazda found that the exhaust gas temperature at high load and high rpm was too high, and that the catalytic converters would likely not last the required 120K miles. To remedy this, they richened the mixture at high rpm high load conditions to lower the exhaust gas temperature, with the byproduct that the peak HP dropped (to no more than 238).

SO - Mazda will never be giving us back the lost HP - because of US requirements for catalytic converter durability, the legally can not. I suppose in the future, if they could equip future Renesis cars with a cat converter that can withstand the higher EGT, then they could restore the lost HP, but owners of current cars would not get that from Mazda.

And I question this whole line of reasoning. I've posted it many times now... while there is little doubt that a Japan, European and US flash exists... the issue of a difference in power between the US and Japan flash is moot in my estimation. Japanese 8 owners complain of the car feeling nowhere near 250ps (NOT hp). Japanese tuners are dynoing the cars at 180ps for Blitz and Trust/GReddy is getting around 268ps on a recent tune of their turbo system... a claimed 60ps increase. It's pretty clear that the JDM cars are pulling the same or very close hp numbers.

If the above is correct, then was there REALLY a cat-converter issue? Hmm...

ml2316

06-11-2004, 12:31 AM

i still remember the first time i read about the rx8 and the "realistic" projections from every mag i read were 0-60 in 5.1-5.2 seconds and a mid 13-second 1/4 mile. what a car that would have been...

8's enough

11-18-2004, 07:13 AM

mazda first reported that we would get 250hp.then dropped it to 238hp.it seems like 80%of the people on this forum who have had dyno's done are between 170-190.i e-mail mazda and the denied are dyno testing .the sells mgr at mazda said it we could get enough menbers to fax mazda there dyno reports then they would have to answer the ?.once you have 50 problems or ? on the same thing mazda has to address it .

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-18-2004, 08:01 AM

I've been wondering the same thing. I mean, the HP issue to me seems much simpler than the MPG issue. Here's what I mean: Getting the rated MPG depends on so many changing variables in driving but all you need is for SOME drivers to get the EPA ratings SOME of the time. Some forum members have achieved the EPA ratings and that fact makes retribution on or concession by Mazda just about unattainable. In this sense, it is more complex and more difficult to formulate a basis for complaint.

However, NO ONE outside of Mazda- not even Racing Beat- has independently achieved 238 HP. This is a SIMPLE fact. Safe mode this, safe mode that- it is irrelevant. Mazda had to have achieved 238 or whatever HP in order to rate it. Since they officially rate it at 238, then they should be willing to prove it. I don't know the fricking law regarding this sort of issue but are not we pretty clearly at a point in time at which Mazda should be legally required to PROVE the 238 HP? A car could be randomly selected from a dealership lot and subjected to an official Mazda engine dyno facility. Isn't this simple? Isn't this reasonable? Shouldn't this be a legal mandate by now?

Perhaps after 5 more ECU reflash updates that supposedly have nothing to do with HP, Mazda will finally do a public dyno.

Mazdax605

11-18-2004, 08:12 AM

The numbers mazda has given has always been flywheel horsepower just like every other manufacturer so therefore the numbers at the rear wheels will be lower.Now if what you are getting at is the 238 number should actually be rated lower according to dyno reports maybe that is so but I don't know and I bet there isn't many people that do know what the acceptable drivetrain loss these cars should have,and how accurate the dynos that these cars were tested on are.There are so many variables with this sort of "hey my car only dynoed XXX horsepower WTF"

I just think we should enjoy the car for what it is.Aside from the 3rd generation RX-7 the RX series has never been the horsepower(or torque for that matter)leader,but most critics even back in the days of the 79-85 12A powered cars liked this series for what it was.A fun to drive,fun to rev cheap(1st gens)-to modestly priced cars(the 3rd gen was not cheap in its day).I find my car gives me many smiles regardless of how much or how little HP i have on tap.Heck I still have a ton of fun in my 120RWHP 12A powered 83 RX-7.It isn't all about RWHP in my book.If it were I would be driving a viper or porsche.I think our cars are great performers for what we pay for them which in some peoples cases it is an expensive car but I really think it is priced just right for what you get.A fun to drive 4 seater with a beautiful body.Is it going to change how I feel about the car if Mazda says"oh yeah it really is more like 220 HP".No,I will still love the car.

w0rm

11-18-2004, 08:14 AM

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-18-2004, 08:23 AM

I'm talking about ENGINE dyno. Racing Beat made only 218 HP on their ENGINE dyno. Car manufacturers rate HP on engine dynos. Otherwise the official rating method in the entire industry would be for at the drive wheel.

The fact there are so many variables is IRRELEVANT. If Mazda really got 238 HP (which they legally had to have, right?), then they know what all the variables are in order to produce 238 HP. Mazda does not have to divulge their dyno secrets; they simply have to hook up a production engine taken from some dealership lot and PUBLICLY prove the 238 HP. Once again, an incredibly simple proposition.

The issue is a simple legal one. Lots of people on this forum talk about what we should or should not be focusing on, and that's fine and great. But there IS a legal perspective that seems should be pretty damn simple.

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-18-2004, 08:27 AM

In the end, who really cares? If i wanted a high HP monster I would get an american muscle car. Why bother getting all puckered up over a few numbers?

Does it really make driving the car any less enjoyable? Do you feel like Mazda should come up with some sort of recall over the issue(which has already happened- why didnt you take advantage of it?). It just gets old hearing the same thing over and over.

Your comment is like many others and your point is well taken.

BUT I have outlined a simple legal perspective that is completely independent of what you're saying. You think I and the thread starter and others don't love our RX8's? Did you read my post in the General Automotive forum comparing the engines of the S2000 and RX8?

Lawyers litigate regardless. The legal case seems very very simple and reasonable.

What I'm saying has not been explicitly stated before on this forum. I've kept track of all the threads for over a year before registering for this forum. Previously, people have complained and complained. I have delineated an incredibly simple and irrefutable line of reasoning, an intellectual basis for a mandate for proof.

I'm NOT calling for more HP. I'm not complaining about not enough HP compared to competitors' cars. I'm calling for proof of the HP. These are fundamentally different issues.

w0rm

11-18-2004, 08:31 AM

I suppose I was a little heavy in retort- I agree. Seeing some sort of public dyno by mazda would be a good idea. There has just been too much controversy over the 'numbers' of this car- both HP and MPG wise.

It just wont change the fact that I love/bought the car.

jsh1120

11-18-2004, 08:32 AM

As noted, virtually all manufacturers claim hp ratings at the crank, not the rear wheels. Typically, there is a 15-20% difference in the two ratings. Further, individual dynos can seldom be compared to one another with variances of another 20%, or so.

Dyno testing is typically worthwhile when modifying a vehicle in order to determine the effect of a specific modification, with testing before and after on the same dyno under similar atmospheric conditions. Virtually any other comparison is subject to so many variables that the numbers are largely meaningless.

Overall performance comparisons require (a) identical tires, (b) the same driver; (c) the same course; (d) close to identical climatic conditions. Such conditions are very seldom met.

All in all, these discussions are best pursued over a few beers in a setting conducive to bench racing. ;)

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-18-2004, 08:37 AM

So you're saying all Mazda needs to do to shut we-the-RX8-public up is treat us to some keg parties?

Mugatu

11-18-2004, 09:30 AM

oh boy - another HP thread. :rolleyes:

rx8wannahave

11-18-2004, 09:42 AM

I've been wondering the same thing. I mean, the HP issue to me seems much simpler than the MPG issue. ....In this sense, it is more complex and more difficult to formulate a basis for complaint.

I agree, can't argue that...

Here are my two cents on this.

First, the RX8 is a great all around performer. It's fast enough for me and it's 2+2 seating, rwd, 2 extra doors, and it's lovely looks has me in it's spell.

whp does not = HP rated, we understand that...
EPA numbers tend to be a guide more than a rule...lol...understood
0-60 & 1/4 are dependent on the driver and conditions...understood

The reason I think it's OK to bring up this HP concern is that there seem to have been enough RX8 "numbers" not working out like Mazda or the EPA have told us to warrant an outcry from loyal owners that love their car.

I agree, a car is ALOT more than numbers (quality, reliablity, handling, looks, usability, etc etc). I think the RX8 has SO much going for it that I tend to ignore most of the complaints out there (you know fuel economy is not one of them).

What I do not agree with is for people to tell others to take their concern and shove it. Like if you say one thing you don't like about the RX8 it means you hate the car or are a complainer.

Example:

"Hello, I'm Joe and I got a RX8 with 238HP, that gets 18/24 mpg, and does the 1/4 in 14.5. I have tested and seen that I can't confirm any of the above on my own...but o well, I'll accept it as user error and go on my way"

If we all did this then the car companies would rape us at every turn. I'm not asking Mazda or the government to give me the world...but the truth, as a consumer, is not negotiable.

In saying this, I think Mazda is working hard to please it's owners. I think the fuel economy, unless you are getting 12-13mpg, has more to do with the driver than the car. I think the 0-60 & 1/4 times can be attained. I think the HP listed is correct based on the performance the car gets.

Concern is what some people have and if that person wants help from others with the same concern then let him ask. It's not an issue for alot of people but if Mazda is messing around with us it should at least be looked into.

If I can get something close to the listed numbers on the RX8...I would not complain, just my two cents.

230HP
6.2 0-60 & 14.7 1/4
17/23

Those numbers would be fine by me, if not...and it's significantly less than what I listed...then I would at least talk to Mazda about it.

quack_p

11-18-2004, 09:48 AM

oh boy - another HP thread. :rolleyes:
My theory is that there is nothing new to discuss, just the same 10 discussions over and over again. Will someone please break out the parts manual and find a widget for us to discuss? I painted the third bolt on the driver side under the rear seat gold, isn't that cool?!

Elara

11-18-2004, 09:51 AM

My theory is that there is nothing new to discuss, just the same 10 discussions over and over again. Will someone please break out the parts manual and find a widget for us to discuss? I painted the third bolt on the driver side under the rear seat gold, isn't that cool?!

I'll merge this with the last one when I get home tonight....I just don't have the energy to go hunting for one right now.

Roaddemon

11-18-2004, 09:53 AM

Maybe Mazda used the dynoed 250hp number and mathematically figured out the hp for the emmision detuned engine in the USA without conducting a dyno test. Just a thought.

w0rm

11-18-2004, 09:55 AM

My theory is that there is nothing new to discuss, just the same 10 discussions over and over again. Will someone please break out the parts manual and find a widget for us to discuss? I painted the third bolt on the driver side under the rear seat gold, isn't that cool?!

Sweet! Post a DIY so i can get this golden-widget-mod.
:D

quack_p

11-18-2004, 10:04 AM

I liken it to sports. I'm not much of a sports fan myself, so I'm always amazed how much people can talk about a sport. Yet that conversation happens around thousands of water coolers and in front of thousands of TV's every day with minor variations. Oh my god people, talk about something else! Anything but who's the best whatever position for whatever team. I don't care if Roger Clemens is the best quarterback! Just kidding, I'm not that illiterate.

G8rboy

11-18-2004, 10:42 AM

My theory is that there is nothing new to discuss, just the same 10 discussions over and over again. Will someone please break out the parts manual and find a widget for us to discuss? I painted the third bolt on the driver side under the rear seat gold, isn't that cool?!

Gold? You should have painted it red... that's what gives us back the 'missing' horsepower!!!

brothervoodoo

11-18-2004, 10:56 AM

As tiresome as it may seem the man has a point.... but it seems most forum members have been beaten into submission and rather not think about it.

Where's the blood sucking lawyers when you need them... no offense to any blood suckers who visit the forum.. :rolleyes:

Hard 8

11-18-2004, 12:52 PM

I dunno. I am a lawyer (albeit a civil defense lawyer who has defended another major car manufacturer in various lawsuits), but I am also a car enthusiast who hates frivolous lawsuits, and who loves his RX-8.

I can see both sides of this debate. On the one hand, who cares what the numbers are, so long as we enjoy the car? On the other hand, a manufacturer should not publish inflated dyno numbers. I think we can agree with BOTH of these propositions.

So how do we reconcile them? I have to admit that I have been hoping that some other lawyer, one more bloodthirsty than I, will put Mazda to the test and demand that Mazda defend its 238 HP claim. (Unfortunately, such a demand would almost have to be part of discovery, which means a lawsuit.)

Why does the 238 HP claim need defending, you ask? Because I think that if the claimed 238 crank HP (plus or minus 5% for manufacturing variation) were correct, then Racing Beat should have gotten much higher numbers on its engine dyno. Also, the RWHP figures that people are consistently getting should be substantially higher. Parasitic drivetrain losses do not entirely explain them, nor does the traction control system.

Why does the HP number even matter, you ask? Because (1) if it's a false claim, Mazda should not be making it, as a matter of both moral and legal principle. It's not fair to either customers or competitors, and it damages carmakers' credibility. And (2) more pragmatically, if the number is ever actually shown to be invalid, then Mazda would have an incentive to upgrade the car's horsepower, which I think is most likely possible, either through firmware revisions or hardware tweaks.

The bottom line is, I would love to get some additional horsepower, even though I do love the car as it is. And Mazda should not be making false claims.

But am I losing sleep over this issue? Does it make me dislike either Mazda or my car? No and no. I am simply expressing my view of these issues. They are NOT a significant priority for me. I am just saying that, if you want one lawyer/car enthusiast's opinion, Mazda should defend its numbers and either lay this issue to rest, or tell the truth, once and for all. (But I, for one, would never sue over it.)

8's enough

11-18-2004, 12:54 PM

hey , don't get me wrong i didn't buy mt 8 to have a dragster.but i paid for what was advertised and i want it.if you bought a house that was 3000 sq ft . and then after moving in it was only 2500 would you be happy,i think not.

dmp

11-18-2004, 01:01 PM

Some insurance companies base premium rates on the Horsepower a car is rated at, if I recall. I believe I was asked my car's HP while getting my car set up in Germany in the early 90s. If people are paying insurance on a 238hp car, which in reality only has 218hp, there could be thousands of people over-paying. :(

brothervoodoo

11-18-2004, 02:39 PM

Well put Hard 8, I agree with your sentiment whole heartedly.

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-18-2004, 02:50 PM

I dunno. I am a lawyer, on the one hand (a civil defense lawyer, and one who has defended a major car manufacturer (not Mazda) in many lawsuits over the years, but still), and, on the other, I am a car enthusiast who hates frivolous lawsuits, and who loves his RX-8.

I can see both sides of this debate. On the one hand, who cares what the numbers are, so long as we enjoy the car? On the other hand, a manufacturer should not publish inflated dyno numbers. I think we can agree with BOTH of these propositions.

So how do we reconcile them? I have to admit that I have been hoping that some other lawyer, one more bloodthirsty than I, will put Mazda to the test and demand that Mazda defend its 238 HP claim. (Unfortunately, such a demand would almost have to be part of discovery, which means a lawsuit.)

Why does the 238 HP claim need defending, you ask? Because I think that if 238 crank HP (plus or minus 5%), were correct, then Racing Beat should have got much higher numbers on its engine dyno. Also, the RWHP figures that people are consistently getting would also be substantially higher. Drivetrain losses do not explain them, nor do the traction control system.

Why does the HP number even matter, you ask? Because (1) if it's a false claim, Mazda should not be making it, as a matter of both moral and legal principle. It's not fair to either customers or competitors, and it damages carmakers' credibility. And (2) more pragmatically, if the number is ever actually shown to be invalid, then Mazda would have an incentive to upgrade the car's horsepower, which I think is most likely possible, either through firmware revisions or hardware tweaks.

The bottom line is, I would love to get some additional horsepower, even though I do love the car as it is. And Mazda should not be making false claims.

But am I losing sleep over this issue? Does it make me dislike either Mazda or my car? No and no. I am simply expressing my view of these issues. They are NOT a significant priority for me. I am just saying that, if you want one lawyer/car enthusiast's opinion, Mazda should defend its numbers and either lay this issue to rest, or tell the truth, once and for all. (But I, for one, would never sue over it.)

Finally, some intelligence. We're thinking the same thing. I'm not a lawyer but my educational background allows me simple, clear thinking that leads me to conclude there is a basis for a lawsuit. CLEARLY. This was never clearly stated in ALL THE OTHER threads. The other threads were either endless complaints and/or figuring out how to defeat the safe mode. I'm not interested in trying to figure out how to properly dyno the car. I'm only interested in Mazda proving the 238 HP. Given enough persistent voice, Mazda may eventually relent, either through a series of veiled ECU updates or other veiled improvements and/or indirectly via a third party- say a party like Racing Beat- by showing them how to dyno the car to get the 238 HP.

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-18-2004, 02:58 PM

My theory is that there is nothing new to discuss, just the same 10 discussions over and over again. Will someone please break out the parts manual and find a widget for us to discuss? I painted the third bolt on the driver side under the rear seat gold, isn't that cool?!

What is new to discuss is a legal basis for HP proof, which is a developing situation that changes over time. And the time is just about ripe.

rx8wannahave

11-18-2004, 02:59 PM

Oh my god people, talk about something else!

What do you propose? Most of us like sports, cars, electronics, etc…so the conversations will be drifting from one to another…topic after topic, but some topics are brought up more often. Bring up new topics and let’s see how much people like to talk about it.

Did they get 238 ENGINE HP out- Highly likely and you can bet other eyes were watching them to make sure they didn't "cook" the numbers.

Are you going to be able to duplicate their dyno runs on Billy Bob's dyno- NO

I tend to agree with your statement. I think Mazda knows they don’t want a HP issue and are being honest with the HP numbers. Sometimes it’s more fun (better yet, appears to be fun) to believe a lie or a conspiracy theory than the truth, just try to talk about GOD to someone and you will see what I mean.

I'll bet my car wont be able to meet the skip pad numbers either.

Now that’s just blasphemy and bitterness…LOL

I can see both sides of this debate. On the one hand, who cares what the numbers are, so long as we enjoy the car? On the other hand, a manufacturer should not publish inflated dyno numbers. I think we can agree with BOTH of these propositions.

That’s the truth!

Why does the 238 HP claim need defending, you ask? Because I think that if 238 crank HP (plus or minus 5%), were correct, then Racing Beat should have got much higher numbers on its engine dyno. Also, the RWHP figures that people are consistently getting would also be substantially higher. Drivetrain losses do not explain them, nor do the traction control system.

5%, I thought the loss was about 2-3 times that…can someone explain? WHP will be less that’s for sure
This is the thing, the car gets a ¼ mile & 0-60 mile performance that would indicate that it has 238HP instead of 215.

What we need to compare the 8 to is a car with the same weight to power ratio. Keeping in mind that cars with different tranny’s, gear ratio,etc etc could make a difference but two cars with the same weight to power ratio should be very close in performance.

I smell a new post coming about this…LOL

Why does the HP number even matter, you ask? Because (1) if it's a false claim, Mazda should not be making it, as a matter of both moral and legal principle. It's not fair to either customers or competitors, and it damages carmakers' credibility. And (2) more pragmatically, if the number is ever actually shown to be invalid, then Mazda would have an incentive to upgrade the car's horsepower, which I think is most likely possible, either through firmware revisions or hardware tweaks.

We found our lawyer…LOL, I agree with those two points…it’s a matter of truth and justice…and the American way, LOL.

The bottom line is, I would love to get some additional horsepower, even though I do love the car as it is. And Mazda should not be making false claims.

If this is the case…that is still questionable if the 238HP listed is incorrect.

But am I losing sleep over this issue? Does it make me dislike either Mazda or my car? No and no. I am simply expressing my view of these issues. They are NOT a significant priority for me. I am just saying that, if you want one lawyer/car enthusiast's opinion, Mazda should defend its numbers and either lay this issue to rest, or tell the truth, once and for all. (But I, for one, would never sue over it.)

I never thought I’d here a lawyer so that…LOL, I’m just messing with you. I agree with what you are saying.

Hey , don't get me wrong i didn't buy mt 8 to have a dragster.but i paid for what was advertised and i want it.if you bought a house that was 3000 sq ft . and then after moving in it was only 2500 would you be happy,i think not.
Again, all truth…I agree

Some insurance companies base premium rates on the Horsepower a car is rated at, if I recall. I believe I was asked my car's HP while getting my car set up in Germany in the early 90s. If people are paying insurance on a 238hp car, which in reality only has 218hp, there could be thousands of people over-paying.

I never heard of that nor has an insurance company asked me my HP numbers…???

shaolin

11-18-2004, 03:01 PM

Hey maybe Mazda will give us some free stuff out of the whole mess...I wouldn't turn it down, but I certainly wouldn't go out and sell my car if they didn't. All I want is the TRUTH.

rx8wannahave

11-18-2004, 03:02 PM

You can't han...OK, I'll stop

quack_p

11-18-2004, 03:19 PM

What do you propose? Most of us like sports, cars, electronics, etc…so the conversations will be drifting from one to another…topic after topic, but some topics are brought up more often. Bring up new topics and let’s see how much people like to talk about it.
I was referring to conversations about sports. I don't mind having the same discussion over and over again about my brand new RX-8. :D

I guess I haven't had the time to build up the rage and distrust against Mazda that some owners seem to have. Give me time! Grrr. :mad:

w0rm

11-18-2004, 03:36 PM

Why did they only give us two rotors anyways? i mean come on! at least three is what we deserve... even the OLD ones had two. :rolleyes:

8's enough

11-18-2004, 03:38 PM

dont get me wrong i dont want to argue with the members of this forum like some people do just to rack up post. but why should i have to buy a turbo to get to the hp's they advertised .i'll be one of the one's to get a turbo when it is tested and reliable.if it takes to to 238 thats fine, but a little disapointing.

dmp

11-18-2004, 03:42 PM

I never heard of that nor has an insurance company asked me my HP numbers…???

I distinctly remember being asked by Fortune, Insurance (Germany, member of AIG, iirc?) about the HP of my car. Also, while registering with US Forces, I was asked - not sure why..maybe for fuel rations?

The RX8 is sold elsewhere in the world. ;) Perhaps US companies do not..but I'm quite certain other owners could be affected.

czr

11-18-2004, 03:50 PM

From what I heard, hard to accurately Dyno this car.
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=44001
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=37269

But wouldn't we be indebted if Hard 8 did some pro bono work for us on his spare time. :D I know..longshot.

Edit: found a link

Ike

11-18-2004, 03:51 PM

1.) I tend to agree with your statement. I think Mazda knows they don’t want a HP issue and are being honest with the HP numbers. Sometimes it’s more fun (better yet, appears to be fun) to believe a lie or a conspiracy theory than the truth, just try to talk about GOD to someone and you will see what I mean.

2.) That’s the truth!

3.) 5%, I thought the loss was about 2-3 times that…can someone explain? WHP will be less that’s for sure
This is the thing, the car gets a ¼ mile & 0-60 mile performance that would indicate that it has 238HP instead of 215.

4.) What we need to compare the 8 to is a car with the same weight to power ratio. Keeping in mind that cars with different tranny’s, gear ratio,etc etc could make a difference but two cars with the same weight to power ratio should be very close in performance.

1.) Believing Mazda's hp numbers is a lot like believing in god, it's blind faith and all the evidence supports that Mazda is wrong. Map out an argument for either and you have one big fallacy.

2.) Wouldn't it be more fun if it actually had the hp it was supposed to?

3.) 5% is the legal variance allowed, he wasn't talking about drivetrain loss which is usually 15-17% on a RWD car. The car absolutely does not get 1/4 mile and 0-60 times that would indicate 238 hp, they all indicate that 215-220 hp is about right, as does every dyno run I've ever seen.

4.) A stock WRX dynos around 170whp and weighs a little more than an RX-8. It runs the 1/4 faster than the 8 due to AWD but the trap speeds are nearly identical which is a very good indicator of WHP. The previous S2K runs the quarter faster as well, weighs a little less, and is rated 2hp more at the crank. It traps around 5mph faster in the 1/4 mile and dynos right where it should be at 200-205 at the wheels. Want more examples I can come up with them, and every one will provide evidence that the RX-8 is not making the advertised hp.

gerx8

11-18-2004, 04:01 PM

5%, I thought the loss was about 2-3 times that…can someone explain? WHP will be less that’s for sure
This is the thing, the car gets a ¼ mile & 0-60 mile performance that would indicate that it has 238HP instead of 215.

What we need to compare the 8 to is a car with the same weight to power ratio. Keeping in mind that cars with different tranny’s, gear ratio,etc etc could make a difference but two cars with the same weight to power ratio should be very close in performance.

Compare it with an 1986 217hp 951 (aka Porsche 944 Turbo)
Curb weight: 3,115 lbs,
0-1/4 mile: about 14.x seconds

An N/A 1993 968 (237 hp)
968:
Curb weight: >= 3100 lbs
0-1/4 mile: 14.x seconds

or an N/A 944 S2
http://www.globalcar.com/datasheet/Porsche/1988Porsche944S2.htm

All cars exceed the RX-8 top speed (>160 mph vs 146) which is an better indication of hp (if top speed is drag limited)

Ike

11-18-2004, 04:03 PM

Compare it with an 1986 217hp 951 (aka Porsche 944 Turbo)
Curb weight: 3,115 lbs,
0-1/4 mile: about 14.x seconds

An N/A 1993 968 (237 hp)
968:
Curb weight: >= 3100 lbs
0-1/4 mile: 14.x seconds

or an N/A 944 S2
http://www.globalcar.com/datasheet/Porsche/1988Porsche944S2.htm

All cars exceed the RX-8 top speed (>160 mph vs 146) which is an better indication of hp (if top speed is drag limited)

Top speed doesn't mean much, trap speed however does.

dmp

11-18-2004, 04:07 PM

Top speed doesn't mean much, trap speed however does.

Exactly!! Trap speed is an indication of 'power' e/t's are indicators of 'driver skill'...more often than not.

gerx8

11-18-2004, 04:42 PM

Top speed doesn't mean much, trap speed however does.

Now some math:
F = A/2 x dc x D x v² + C_r x m x g
first part is the air resistance A/2 = front area, dc = drag coefficient, D = air density, v=speed (m/s)
second part is friction C_r = constant ~ 0.015, m = curb weight in kg, g = 9.81 m/s^2
P = F x v

So F x v = P (238hp) simply means that the forces hindering the 8 from getting faster are equal to its engine power.

p.s. has anybody seen an 8 getting faster than (146 mph gps)?

Rennwagen

11-18-2004, 04:49 PM

I am also a lawyer (perhaps not more bloodthirsty than Hard8) which means that I also see both sides. I tend to side with those that are upset, though.

For me, it comes down to the things that you mull over when you are deciding which car company will get your $30,00+. After I drove the Z, I liked it, but not as much as the STI or the '8. I poured over spec sheets and spent hours researching things on the web and elsewhere.

Mazda made a claim about how much power this car makes. That claim has been shown to be false. Not simply in one case or in certain conditions, but across the board. Of the vast automotive community, no one has seen the horsepower numbers that Mazda claimed when they were trying to sell us the car. That's a big problem for me.

Those that would get pissy and tell me to buy another car do little to address my rather valid complaint. I don't want a GTO (I drove one before I bought the RX). I feel Mazda did a disservice and I want them to correct it.

Mis-staing hp numbers is done all the time. However, most times car companys know enough to underrate them. The Neon SRT-4 makes about 20hp more than Dodge claims and the early 150hp 1.8T VWs made more than 165.

I didn't want a drag car, nor did I care about having the fastest car on the block. I wanted a 238hp RX-8 but I was delivered a 215hp car. That's a problem for me.

quack_p

11-18-2004, 05:26 PM

G8rboy

11-18-2004, 05:46 PM

How did the it come to light that the HP was 238 rather than 250? I understand that the 238 is now in question, too, but I'm just curious how the first correction was made. Did someone sue Mazda? Did they cough it up voluntarily?

It was voluntary, but I'm sure the first wave of dyno numbers coming in from the summer of '03 helped push them to fess up. The also made a similar 'goof' back in '01 with the Miata- said it had 155hp, but after some PCM changes for emissions purposes, it was re-rated at 142. I think California is to blame for both overstatements of HP :)

quack_p

11-18-2004, 05:55 PM

It was voluntary, but I'm sure the first wave of dyno numbers coming in from the summer of '03 helped push them to fess up. The also made a similar 'goof' back in '01 with the Miata- said it had 155hp, but after some PCM changes for emissions purposes, it was re-rated at 142.
Boy, someone at Mazda seems to be good at exagerrating. Probably thinks 3 inches is a foot, if you know what I mean. ;)

rx8wannahave

11-18-2004, 06:01 PM

I was referring to conversations about sports.

LOL, I love to talk about the RX8 too...but I love sports too...you can understand that can't cha?

I guess I haven't had the time to build up the rage and distrust against Mazda that some owners seem to have

I for one, aint an owner yet, but really like Mazda. I just don't trust anything on this planet 100%...well, less Family!

you are probally one of the guy's that want to buy a turbo for an extra 40hp for $4k-5k when mazda should have givin us this when we bought the car.then it would be alot easier to get to the 300hp .without spending the 5k on a turbo.

You know me so little, I would be the LAST person to ever pay $1,000 per 10HP…NO WAY ON EARTH!!!!

IF, and I say it again…IF I ever got a SC/Turbo the most I would spend is $3,000 for 100HP…no less, is that unrealistic...I don't know nor do I care...the RX8 is fast enough.

Read my post, I’m all about the bang for the buck and I actually can’t understand why people spend…

$500 for a carbon fiber hood to save 5 pounds
$350 for air intake for 2HP
$500 exhaust system for 3HP

So $1,350 for 5HP and 5 less pounds…sorry, that’s a bad deal!

dont get me wrong i dont want to argue with the members of this forum like some people do just to rack up post.

Who are you talking about?

I distinctly remember being asked by Fortune, Insurance (Germany, member of AIG, iirc?) about the HP of my car. Also, while registering with US Forces, I was asked - not sure why..maybe for fuel rations?

The RX8 is sold elsewhere in the world. Perhaps US companies do not..but I'm quite certain other owners could be affected.

Ohhh, I never knew…

Believing Mazda's hp numbers is a lot like believing in god, it's blind faith

Blind? Actually it’s easy to believe in GOD…it’s believing in evolution, the big bang…etc that takes BLIND faith. GOD makes sense...all the other fallcy filled theories of men...are foolish to say the least.

The car absolutely does not get 1/4 mile and 0-60 times that would indicate 238 hp, they all indicate that 215-220 hp is about right, as does every dyno run I've ever seen.

Per Motor Trend:

04 WRX 227HP 0-60 6.1 ¼ Mile 14.5 93Mph (3085 pounds)
04 RX8 238HP 0-60 6 ¼ Mile 14.5 95Mph (3050 pounds)

10HP & 35 or so pounds

The truth will come out one day…I aint worried, 14.5 ¼ miles is fine by me!

No…it can’t get that either….yeah, and I live in a UFO…

Too many auto mag’s and at least one guy here got it…so it can be done…learn to drive it and the numbers will come!

dmp

11-18-2004, 07:00 PM

04 WRX 227HP 0-60 6.1 ¼ Mile 14.5 93Mph (3085 pounds)
04 RX8 238HP 0-60 6 ¼ Mile 14.5 95Mph (3050 pounds)

That stat SUPPORTS mazda 238hp claim...unless Subaru over-rates too.

It's reasonable to expect a car to be a couple mph faster thru the traps w/ about 10more HP.

Ike

11-19-2004, 12:54 AM

That stat SUPPORTS mazda 238hp claim...unless Subaru over-rates too.

It's reasonable to expect a car to be a couple mph faster thru the traps w/ about 10more HP.

Ummm the WRX is AWD and has an estimated 26% drivetrain loss which is pretty typical for an AWD car, 227 - 26% = 168 whp which hardly supports the Mazda claim. That's one of the slowest times for the WRX and motortrend is pretty good at being all over the board on the test times, C&D seems to produce pretty consistent fast times. C&D tested the WRX at 14.1 @ 95mph if I recall correctly. Many many people in the WRX community have run low 14s @ around 94mph with a few people dipping lower than that with slightly higher trap speeds. This is all done with a slightly heavier car and only around 170whp which would lead one to believe the RX-8 has in the area of 170-180whp. Lets do the math for that one... 238 crank hp -16% which is a typical drivetrain loss for a RWD car adds up to 200whp which is on the low end of the scale for what the S2K gets and far more than what any stock RX-8 has ever dynoed. Now figure what a 215 hp RX-8 should dyno at the wheels which is 180whp, very very close to what most RX-8s have dynoed at. Most RX-8s trap in the area of 93-96mph, very close to the WRX. The WHP when considering what most RX-8s dyno at is very close to that 180 mark and also very close to the WRX in trap speeds with a slight edge to the RX-8 which is just how it should be if you consider the RX-8 is a little lighter and dynos a little higher than a WRX. Polak, the one person that came close to the mag times trapped 94, most of the others that have managed high 14s trap 93mph, if the RX-8 was making 238hp the traps would be about 4mph higher which is a mph or two slower than an S2K which has about the same listed chp and is a little lighter.

hotpot

11-19-2004, 01:42 AM

The UK RX-8 is rated at 228 bhp. What's up with that? Tighter emission regulations? Anybody knows?

Razpewton

11-19-2004, 06:10 AM

Ya know....when I first test drove the RX-8, and all the way through to driving my new purchase home, I don't believe horsepower was ever discussed.. I hadn't read in a magazine what the specs were and MazdaUSA never sent me a brochure with claims of non-existent horsepower.

I test drove the car, felt the surge of zoom-zoom racing through my veins, so I bought the car and have never regretted it. Anything beyond this is blah-blah-blah.

:D :D :D :D

zevans

11-19-2004, 06:39 AM

The UK RX-8 is rated at 228 bhp. What's up with that? Tighter emission regulations? Anybody knows?

UK HP != US HP != PS (Euro HP)

And all of the above != indication of real-world performance.

Just to add to the fun, note the lo-power is tuned for slightly more torque, by the way...

IkeWRX - nice post - makes sense.

If Scoobies are running similar quarters to 8s, then why does everyone think Scoobies are fearsome and 8s are slow?

rx8wannahave

11-19-2004, 06:49 AM

Polak, the one person that came close to the mag times trapped 94, most of the others that have managed high 14s trap 93mph, if the RX-8 was making 238hp the traps would be about 4mph higher which is a mph or two slower than an S2K which has about the same listed chp and is a little lighter.

Ike, with all respect...

Stop saying that Polak got close...he nailed it (the time) so don't say that no more. Trap speed was different but he only had 3 runs. Also, Motor Trend Vs CD...is debateable to say the least. 14.1 is highly suspect and I'll take the MT numbers over CD. MT does not do certain things that other mag's do and vise versa so feel free to post your numbers but your numbers don't carry more weight than mine nor do mine over yours. It's all in how you present it...

I think the RX8 after looking over this information and stuff MIGHT be making less power but I don't think it's 200HP, if anything, it's probably in the 225-230 range. There is more to a car than numbers as others have said but the numbers that the RX8 get's are very respectable.

In the turns...the RX8 will leave the WRX behind...in looks...it will leave the WRX parked in the back of the parking lot, and its interior is much better.

The WRX has AWD "sweet", seats 4, is great all weather car, and is fast also...no doubt.

Each car has it's good and bad, but I hear you talk ALOT more about all that is wrong with the RX8 compared to any good. We know your stand on the RX8 but you never pass up a chance to hammer away at the RX8...gosh, I would not continually go to the WRX website and bash the car...I mean what is the purpose?

Ike

11-19-2004, 11:15 AM

Ike, with all respect...

Stop saying that Polak got close...he nailed it (the time) so don't say that no more. Trap speed was different but he only had 3 runs. Also, Motor Trend Vs CD...is debateable to say the least. 14.1 is highly suspect and I'll take the MT numbers over CD. MT does not do certain things that other mag's do and vise versa so feel free to post your numbers but your numbers don't carry more weight than mine nor do mine over yours. It's all in how you present it...

I think the RX8 after looking over this information and stuff MIGHT be making less power but I don't think it's 200HP, if anything, it's probably in the 225-230 range. There is more to a car than numbers as others have said but the numbers that the RX8 get's are very respectable.

In the turns...the RX8 will leave the WRX behind...in looks...it will leave the WRX parked in the back of the parking lot, and its interior is much better.

The WRX has AWD "sweet", seats 4, is great all weather car, and is fast also...no doubt.

Each car has it's good and bad, but I hear you talk ALOT more about all that is wrong with the RX8 compared to any good. We know your stand on the RX8 but you never pass up a chance to hammer away at the RX8...gosh, I would not continually go to the WRX website and bash the car...I mean what is the purpose?

If a mag had run what Polak did I believe it would be published as a 14.6 and he did trap slower which is important when it comes to this argument. However it really doesn't matter it was a good run regardless, if you want me to say he nailed it, fine, he nailed it... ONE person has achieved the Mag times, one, maybe two if you consider Ito who beat them, we think... Why would you call 14.1 suspect and not 14.5. No 14.1 is not the norm for a stock WRX but it has been achieved more than once by owners, that 14.1 was achieved with a full production car while most of the 14.5s by mags for the RX-8 were done pre ECU change and with a preproduction car. Also, C&D is rather consistent with their times, Motortrend is not and I can find you many people that will agree with me but this discusion isn't about what magazine has the most reliable times.

No one has ever said the RX-8 is making 200hp so I don't know where you came up with that number. You're just pulling some random number out of a hat with your 225-230hp figure, what's your basis for these numbers? I've got 1/4 mile traps, an engine dyno, numerous other dynos, and comparison cars to base my number of 215-220hp on.

I never said the times for the RX-8 weren't respectable, but they aren't anything that numerous other cars in the same pricerange and cheaper can't achieve or beat.

I'm not going to turn this into a comparison of the WRX and RX-8. I simply used the WRX as a comparison since the it falls pretty close to what you asked for as a car with a similar hp to weight ratio.

You're starting to sound like some of the other RX-8 owners on this site. Show me where I'm bashing the RX-8, and it's clear that you don't know my stand on the 8 if you think I'm just here to "bash" it. I'm saying something that has good evidence to support it. It's funny how many times I hear on this site that numbers don't mean anything but these HP threads are some of the most popular threads and many RX-8 owners get very upset and defensive about someone saying the car doesn't have 238hp. Why would you defend something so vigilantly if you didn't care about it?

Ike

11-19-2004, 11:29 AM

UK HP != US HP != PS (Euro HP)

And all of the above != indication of real-world performance.

Just to add to the fun, note the lo-power is tuned for slightly more torque, by the way...

IkeWRX - nice post - makes sense.

If Scoobies are running similar quarters to 8s, then why does everyone think Scoobies are fearsome and 8s are slow?

Probably simply because there are very few stock WRXs out there and they are so cheap and easy to make faster. The WRX is also cheaper than the RX-8 and was introduced first so it has more a reputation. When it was introduced in the US an import car that could run mid 5s 0-60 and low 14s in the 1/4 mile for under 30k was unheard of. It was obtainable, practical, and fast. The 8s get the slow wrap because it's more expensive, there's been a hp war the last couple years since the WRX was introduced, and it's slower than all its competition.

It's not slow, but when you consider the other cars that have been introduced in the last couple years it's nothing out of the ordinary. Subaru has 4 cars in the same preicerange that are faster, Nissan has 3 that are as fast or faster aound the same pricepoint, Dodge has 2 and one of them is much cheaper, I think you get the point. I'm not saying the RX-8 doesn't have other merits that set it apart from these other cars, but this thread is about horsepower and straight line acceleration.

Wankeler

11-19-2004, 01:43 PM

Ya know....when I first test drove the RX-8, and all the way through to driving my new purchase home, I don't believe horsepower was ever discussed..

That's your salesperson's fault. Mazda salespeople really didn't study for their "tests" (road test with potential RX8 buyers). Most SPORTS car buyers are interested in the advertised (claimed) HP numbers.

Regarding your new home... was square footage ever discussed? Would have purchased that home if they didn't?
Ok, lets say it was never mentioned, but you took a tour of the home and fell in love with it's layout, location, school district, etc... Then you buy the home... the seller (realtor, private contractor, whomever) listed the house and advertised it as 4000 sq ft. But then your interior decorator, Fabio tells you (and you verify it later) that your home is actually 3750 sq ft. Granted you loved the home enough to purchase it... but is it all really "blah blah blah"? Would you not be slightly upset? :(

PoLaK

11-19-2004, 01:57 PM

The RX-8 makes 219-222crankHP according to several engine dynos. Deal with it, it’s just a fugly number. When i go out on the road i don't say to myself you know I'm only felling about 218 of my HP today, man i really should be feeling 229. I have a problem with Mazda for saying its 238 but im not going to hate my car because it has 220.

They guy who originally tuned the Renesis to its pre-production HP is a NHRA guy, forget his name something Schrader i believe. He tuned the Renesis to 260HP without any regard for emission regulations, hence he didn't not have a CAT, he also had no mufflers. The only major difference was that he used different headers (longer i believe) and his own fuel maps. He won't market it to us though, nor will he give me his maps :(

rx8wannahave

11-19-2004, 04:21 PM

If a mag had run what Polak did I believe it would be published as a 14.6 and he did trap slower which is important when it comes to this argument.

Why? Did he get like 14.59…I don’t remember? From what I’ve seen normally Motor Trend will list it to two decimal points.

Why would you call 14.1 suspect and not 14.5.

OK, I’ll take that back…I don’t know about the WRX but your partial to CD and I’m partial to MT. So, I take MT’s numbers and you take CD's numbers.

…while most of the 14.5s by mags for the RX-8 were done pre ECU change and with a preproduction car.

The MT test just happened like 2-3 mag’s ago this year so I think the ECU was set as it was sold to the owners of the car. If you would like I will post, but it might be illegal with copy write laws, the article…maybe text only or something.

Also, C&D is rather consistent with their times, Motortrend is not and I can find you many people that will agree with me but this discusion isn't about what magazine has the most reliable times.

That's another topic, agreed…I like CD but I have not seen one in a while so we can agree to disagree with what they report.

No one has ever said the RX-8 is making 200hp so I don't know where you came up with that number.

It’s called exaggeration…dot your I’s and cross your T’s…LOL...sorry

You're just pulling some random number out of a hat with your 225-230hp figure, what's your basis for these numbers?

I said I “THINK” it makes about 225-230…think, but I’ll write less and edit more of what I write here. I’ll revise it again and say now that I THINK it makes something like 220…happy, but Mazda keeps telling us 238 even with the 05’s so you wont catch me telling people that the RX8 makes 220HP…

I never said the times for the RX-8 weren't respectable, but they aren't anything that numerous other cars in the same pricerange and cheaper can't achieve or beat.

Faster car than the RX8 for less than $27,000 include?

SRT4
and….feed me, I’m not aware…the WRX “maybe” (more like a tie or based on the driver) but how much does it cost and do they still make it? Carsdirect.com does not have it listed????

350Z
G35
GTO
S2000
R32

are all more expensive than the RX8…

Note: I’m using a 6sp with Sport package as the listed price…not with all the options…some people said they paid $35,000 for the RX8…how?

You're starting to sound like some of the other RX-8 owners on this site. Show me where I'm bashing the RX-8, and it's clear that you don't know my stand on the 8 if you think I'm just here to "bash" it.

So sensitive…ouch, I did not say all you do is bash but it seems that ALL I SEE you write about is about the negative things of the RX8. I don’t have the time to go search all of your post nor would you go find all of mine…but it SEEMS that you LOVE to talk about the negative things about the RX8. You never miss an opportunity to respond to people asking about HP, fuel economy, etc. Just an observation but again I like ya…I don’t want you to leave…I’m just stating my opinion on what you like to write about.

I’m not saying to leave or something…stick around, you keep me honest…I’m just making an observation based on what you write or at least what I SEE you write.

…funny how many times I hear on this site that numbers don't mean anything but these HP threads are some of the most popular threads and many RX-8 owners get very upset and defensive about someone saying the car doesn't have 238hp. Why would you defend something so vigilantly if you didn't care about it?

What I meant to say is that it’s not the only thing I look at. This is what bothers me, if Mazda said it has 238HP then it BETTER have it…if the EPA (which Mazda does list in advertisements so it’s using those numbers) say it gets 18/24…then it BETTER make those numbers. If MT and at least one owner gets the 0-60 & ¼ mile times of XX…then MOST drivers better get it (as long as they are decent drivers to begin with)

I mean...why report the performance numbers if only perfessional drivers could get them? I mean...then it's useless...

I truly love the RX8 and AGAIN I appreciate everyone giving input and their thoughts. But, it seems that a lot of people are a little touchy…probably me too…around here. Because I said something to disagree does not mean I hate you or something. I’m discussing things and sometimes I’ll say something wrong…IM HUMAN!

I’ll talk less maybe…but hopefully I won’t leave one day cause no one lets people talk about things or make mistakes…GOSH!

-=Zepplock=-

11-19-2004, 04:23 PM

I read all these threads here before I bought the 8, Then I decided whether any of it (HP, MPG, brakes,...etc..ad nauseum) was going to be an issue either before or after purchase. None of the threads here dissuaded me. I considered the sources, added a grain of salt, and bought the best car still left on my list of choices.

I'm there with you 100%!

rx8wannahave

11-19-2004, 04:25 PM

LOL, nice one...pass the salt please cause IkeWRX keeps scareing me...LOL

PoorCollegeKid

11-19-2004, 05:24 PM

Faster car than the RX8 for less than $27,000 include?

SRT4
and….feed me, I’m not aware…the WRX “maybe” (more like a tie or based on the driver) but how much does it cost and do they still make it? Carsdirect.com does not have it listed????

350Z
G35
GTO
S2000
R32

are all more expensive than the RX8…

Within $2000 of the RX8's base price, the Altima, Maxima, base 350Z, I35, WRX (if you go by average 1/4 times or best 1/4 times, the WRX comes out on top), Legacy GT, Forester 2.5XT, Outback 2.5XT, Evo VIII RS, Grand Prix GTP, Bonneville SSEi, Buick Regal GS, Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Saturn Ion, Cobalt SS, Mustang GT, and Accord V6, are just a sample of the cars available today that are fully capable of running in the mid to high 14s, if not lower (and in some cases, significantly lower). The RX8 is not meant to be a straight line, drag racing type of car, so it's no surprise that it's relatively bad at this. Drag racing an RX8 is like auto-crossing a stock Mustang: sure, you could do it, and the car might be halfway decent at it, but if that's what you really care about then why not buy a car that's actually designed for the task, rather than trying to make your car in to something that it's not? As has been said time and again on this forum, if being faster than the car next to you at a stoplight is important to you, the RX8 is not the car to buy.

Ophitoxaemia

11-19-2004, 06:23 PM

Hard 8

11-19-2004, 06:31 PM

What you said.

Without repeating all my disclaimers earlier in this thread about how I love the car and how the HP issue is not critical to me, I do have say I'm surprised that no one else is suing Mazda about this one.

Your avatar reminds me of when Carroll Shelby was selling "new old stock" Cobras, saying they were left-over chasses, when in reality he had simply reserved the serial numbers and put them on brand-new cars. I read that, amazingly, none of his defrauded customers sued him. Why not? Perhaps because (a) they still loved the cars they bought (which were still, in a sense, "real" Cobras); and (b) a lawsuit might have diminished their value and prestige. Same here?

Raptor

11-19-2004, 07:00 PM

its a cool car and all, but i am disappointed since it doesnt make the 270 i initially heard for the side port, nor the 247 it was originally advertised at, nor the 238 that i signed a disclaimer for in the dealership.

arguing that businesses can lie about their products as long as we dont notice or object is a dangerous precedent to set. i prefer that businesses are legally required to tell the truth about their products- horsepower, safety, and otherwise.

james

Welcome to the real world! pretty much any product you can buy is a half lie, from video games( that is my line of business ) to toilet paper.
I don't think mazda went out of its way and lied about the hp more that any other car maker.
On the other hand, they delivered a great balanced car for a reasonable price.

rx8wannahave

11-19-2004, 07:27 PM

Within $2000 of the RX8's base price, the Altima, Maxima, base 350Z, I35, WRX (if you go by average 1/4 times or best 1/4 times, the WRX comes out on top), Legacy GT, Forester 2.5XT, Outback 2.5XT, Evo VIII RS, Grand Prix GTP, Bonneville SSEi, Buick Regal GS, Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Saturn Ion, Cobalt SS, Mustang GT, and Accord V6, are just a sample of the cars available today that are fully capable of running in the mid to high 14s, if not lower (and in some cases, significantly lower).

Altima
Maxima
I35
Grand Prix GTP
Bonneville SSEi
Buick Regal GS
Impala SS
Monte Carlo SS
Saturn Ion
Cobalt SS
Accord V6

First, I understand you are talking about the numbers…but I don’t compare FWD cars to the RX8. Price per ¼ mile yes, I knew about those cars…but they really don’t compare to the RX8. If someone is after price per ¼ mile then those cars should be considered but I’m not one of them. At least not with cars that are not REAL sports cars in my opinion.

WRX
Legacy GT
Forester
Outback
Evo VIII RS

WRX, Evo, and the new Legacy GT…I understand but the outback and Forester…I mean COME ON MAN!!! Again, I’m talking about numbers but Its not my #1 love. I actually like the new Legacy GT but its new and beyond my top price of $24,000 out the door.

The RX8 is not meant to be a straight line, drag racing type of car, so it's no surprise that it's relatively bad at this. Drag racing an RX8 is like auto-crossing a stock Mustang: sure, you could do it, and the car might be halfway decent at it, but if that's what you really care about then why not buy a car that's actually designed for the task, rather than trying to make your car in to something that it's not? As has been said time and again on this forum, if being faster than the car next to you at a stoplight is important to you, the RX8 is not the car to buy.

I agree and I do not…I can’t say this enough, I DO NOT take a car in parts mainly but in everything it’s about. I love the 8 because…

It looks so good
It has comfortable back seats
It has those extra doors to help entry/exit
It’s FAST (enough for me)
It handles GREAT
It’s quality is very good
It’s a great bang for the buck sports car
It’s VERY fun to drive (and I never even pushed it on my test drive…a driver car…how it makes you feel…)

arguing that businesses can lie about their products as long as we dont notice or object is a dangerous precedent to set. i prefer that businesses are legally required to tell the truth about their products- horsepower, safety, and otherwise.

AMEN! I know I’m an idealist but some people don’t like when people complain and/or want them to accept what ever is dished out to them. LOL, those are the people who probably said in America’s early years…”Hay, the English want to tax the heck out of us…but hay, what are you going to do…dont complain about it…” LOL…sorry…for the sarcasm

The RX8 is not meant to be a straight line, drag racing type of car, so it's no surprise that it's relatively bad at this. Drag racing an RX8 is like auto-crossing a stock Mustang: sure, you could do it, and the car might be halfway decent at it, but if that's what you really care about then why not buy a car that's actually designed for the task, rather than trying to make your car in to something that it's not? As has been said time and again on this forum, if being faster than the car next to you at a stoplight is important to you, the RX8 is not the car to buy.

rx8wannahave

11-19-2004, 07:28 PM

On the other hand, they delivered a great balanced car for a reasonable price.

This, I can not argue with...

This is what bothers me...naa, I'll make a new post about it and what for the flames!

G8rboy

11-19-2004, 08:08 PM

The question I have for most people here is this- we all had reasons we liked the RX8 enough to consider buying it... and I'm assuming we all test drove the car before we bought it... right? Now that some people have shown that this same car that we loved and bought might only be producing 225hp, that it's now somehow tarnished... lost its luster. Funny thing is it still accelerates the same to me, still handles like a dream, and is still the best car for the money out there in my opinion. And hell- my car stickered for nearly $36k... not that I paid sticker... but I would have... which is still helluva lot of engineering for the money in my opinion.

I guess the point of my rambling is this- just because it can't live up to some HP numbers on the dyno or in a drag race doesn't change the original reasons why we bought it... especially in real world driving experiences... at least not for me. There are very few cars that can still evoke the same level of emotion from it's owners after a year of ownership as the day they first read about it in a magazine. That to me is priceless.

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-19-2004, 08:09 PM

arguing that businesses can lie about their products as long as we dont notice or object is a dangerous precedent to set. i prefer that businesses are legally required to tell the truth about their products- horsepower, safety, and otherwise.

james

Ophitoxaemia has stated the true issue here. This is my position. This is also the position of the 2 lawyers in this thread (Hard 8 and Rennwagen).

silver1.3

11-19-2004, 09:49 PM

I have not read this whole thread but I do have a question. I picked up "Speed" magazine - the one with the white mazdaspeed version in it. Also in it is an article on the Mazdaspeed racing team. In it they say something rather interesting to me: they say the the engine is basically the same as stock but they use a stand alone ECU unit that lets them make 260 bhp. What that tells me is that either all the emissions equip. is choking of some serious hp or the programming it too agressive for a street car. Could be both I guess. I find it interesting as well that if the engine is basically stock then it is quite possible to make the 250 bhp or as least the 238 - I just wish I knew the particulars of what and why the race car does.

rx8wannahave

11-19-2004, 10:06 PM

I guess the point of my rambling is this- just because it can't live up to some HP numbers on the dyno or in a drag race doesn't change the original reasons why we bought it... especially in real world driving experiences... at least not for me. There are very few cars that can still evoke the same level of emotion from it's owners after a year of ownership as the day they first read about it in a magazine. That to me is priceless

That's about right...I agree. I think people, me with fuel economy, just want to vent our frustration when numbers or estimates don't turn out right. But, like you said...and I don't even own one yet...the 8 is a great car as it is...with some tweaking...it will become SUPER!

GiN

11-19-2004, 10:16 PM

The stand alone ecu allows for a more aggressive high-resolution engine tune. On top of that, they run race gas and no catalytic converter. With that said, it's very feasible that the engine with stock internals and intake tract can make ~260hp. According to one member of a Pro Formula Mazda race team, drive train losses of 50hp are not unheard of, even in race cars with sequential shift transmissions.

jrknu

11-19-2004, 11:48 PM

Here are some caps, RX-7 and RX-8, no problem with caps from real people.

As far as getting Mazda to prove or even certify 238 HP, dream on all

They can’t / won’t even give accurate stats on oil consumption or m.p.g.

All such information, given to mere consumers would be very dangerous,
and is best left to be guessed at and debated by the owners after they have
bought the farm.

irish8

11-19-2004, 11:56 PM

Your BOY is talking CRAP!!!!

- Irish :cool:

G8rboy

11-20-2004, 03:45 AM

rx8wannahave

11-20-2004, 11:59 AM

By the way, I am such a Mazda nut, but my appreciation for the truth is greater than my appreciation for the wankel or my loalty to a manufacturer.

True...that's all, it's not that the RX8 is bad (ITS GREAT) it's just that when information is given out to mislead or that has not been researched enough which in turn misleads your customer...THEN SHAME ON THEM!!!

The truth is what most people are trying to get at, not that they don't like their cars, but the truth is what matters the most to them...ME

dmp

11-20-2004, 06:05 PM

I'm uneducated and have a small penis. I live in a trailer, too.

There...everyone feel better about themselves?

guy 'a' says "Mazda should simply be honest". guy 'b' says 'stop your whining, if you hate your car, sell it" .

People either miss 'the point' from ignorance or indifference.

1.3L

11-20-2004, 08:52 PM

Call me dumb, but I just don't get it. You do your research, read endless reviews and road tests in all of the popular car magazines. Next, you test drive lots of different cars, including the 8. In the final analysis, you decide to buy an 8 because you DROVE it. And when you DROVE it you discover that it goes fast, handles well, engine never runs out of revs, seats fit and and you love the sound of the engine. You were impressed.

Before you drove it, or at least by the time you laid down your hard-earned cash, you already knew the 8 would do about .90 on the skid pad; do 0 to 60 in about 5.9 seconds; had well balanced handling.

And now there are some who complain that the 8 might not have 238 HP. My question is, so what?! You already drove it, you KNEW how it felt and performed and it impressed you enough to BUY it. I'll bet you were happy with it until someone suggested that the engine might generate something less than 238HP. So, let's make a stretch and assume Mazda says the Renesis "only" makes 220HP or whatever. Will that statement suddenly make the 8 sitting in your garage or driveway suddenly go slower than the day you test drove it??? I don't think so. You'll still have the same car that apparently impressed you enough to buy it in the first place. Right?

So the question that begs to be asked, why did you buy the car? Was it because the window sticker stated 238HP? Or, was it because the car performed so well on your test drive that you decided you couldn't live with out it?

caveat emp·tor (ĕmp'tôr') pronunciation
n.

The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying.

1.3L

Grabitquick

11-20-2004, 09:05 PM

So the question that begs to be asked, why did you buy the car? Was it because the window sticker stated 238HP? Or, was it because the car performed so well on your test drive that you decided you couldn't live with out it?

1.3L

My sentiments exactly. :D

quack_p

11-20-2004, 09:40 PM

I'll bet you were happy with it until someone suggested that the engine might generate something less than 238HP. So, let's make a stretch and assume Mazda says the Renesis "only" makes 220HP or whatever. Will that statement suddenly make the 8 sitting in your garage or driveway suddenly go slower than the day you test drove it???
Sorry I missed the flame war. I agree with 1.3L. The RX-8's strong suit has never been power. You could tell me the car has 400 HP, and it really doesn't change the fact that it looks sweet and is fun to drive.

valpac

11-20-2004, 09:56 PM

Here's an interesting site. They dynoed a 350Z on various machines. Looks like the data really converged, huh? :rolleyes:

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0306tur_dynodash/

par. 2 The Dynojet 248 is the standard when it comes to dyno testing, but a number of other options have popped up in recent years. Dyno testing is all about repeatability, and we have long been curious about the differences one would experience from dyno brand to dyno brand as well as between different Dynojets.

Man, if I was a 350 owner and saw the 228HP (vs. the published 287HP) numbers posted by the Super Flow SF-1853 dyno, I'd be all over Nissan for lying to me. Hoo boy, I'd be pissed.

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-20-2004, 10:11 PM

Argue all you guys want, but why not in a civil manner? Tyrell, when you call him a "goofy retard" it only hurts your argument. People are less prone to listen to people who have such a malicious attitude. Sure there are others who agree with a lot of what you say, and of course there will be others who don't. If you want to convince them, find another way. Please don't make the mods close this thread. I hate when that happens, it's such a waste to see all this info go down the drain. Please play nice guys :D

Aoshi,

For HIM, I was really focusing on the lovable and goofy parts. The retard part happened to tag along as I did not create that line in the movie.

rx8cited

11-20-2004, 10:55 PM

I'm uneducated and have a small penis. I live in a trailer, too.

There...everyone feel better about themselves?

LMAO! Thanks for the humor :).

guy 'a' says "Mazda should simply be honest". guy 'b' says 'stop your whining, if you hate your car, sell it" .

People either miss 'the point' from ignorance or indifference.

Well stated!

I love my RX-8 just like guy 'a' here and would love to see Mazda produce their dyno results and put this issue to rest. I wonder if New York State Attorney General Eliot Spitzer could help here :).

If guy 'b' discovered that those 12 oz cans of his favorite beer only contained 11 oz beer, I wonder what his reaction would be. Would he want to hear, "Well, you've been picking up the cans and holding them before you pay for and drink them all this time, so what's the problem?"

valpac

11-21-2004, 08:41 AM

...but the name calling posts will probably get deleted.

Good idea. Let the moderator delete all name calling posts to this thread.

rotarygod

11-21-2004, 01:36 PM

bryrx804

11-21-2004, 04:00 PM

What he said ^^^^ Agree in every way.

Ike

11-21-2004, 04:50 PM

Here's the way I look at the whole "lost horsepower" topic. First of all companies publish numbers. Aftermarket companies do this too. they don't force you to believe them though. Sometimes the product makes more power than quoted, other times it makes less. Take the LS1 Camaros for instance. They put down more power than rated. I have never seen a single person complain about restoring original horsepower on those cars because they have too much. Double standard? Um, yeah! The Camaro regardless of it's published power numbers vs it's actual numbers till produces the SAME claimed performance. So does the RX-8. This is the ONLY relevant thing. Shouldn't the Camaro guys be pissed their cars aren't even faster than rated since they are more powerful? If they were RX-8 guys they probably would.

Also, since no one here actually did the original testing or has driven a more powerful stock RX-8, who's to definitively say that any power is lost? First of all, "restoring original horsepower" implies that the car came with much more power when you bought it but you have somehow lost it since then and want it back. You bought the car this way. You've lost nothing. I don't see anyone buying a K&N intake and then complaining to K&N about restoring the lost 9 hp they claimed to make over stock in their dyno sheet. People just install these things and accept them the way they are.

Get off of the published numbers. They are irrelevant. What is printed in a brochure or magazine doesn't make your car any faster. How it actually performs is where he judgement should be made. The car performs as advertised. What's the problem?

This thread started out stupid and has now hit page 11 of stupid.

RG, I hope you're playing devils advocate a bit here. I find it hard to believe you actually think it's a double standard to be upset about getting less hp than advertised and not get upset about getting more hp than advertised.

It's analogy time kids! :p Lets say you go to a restaurant and order some chicken wings, 10 of them to be precise. The server brings out your ings and there are 12 of them, do you complain, I don't think anyone on this board can honestly say they would. Maybe you say something to the server and tell them you got 2 extra wings and ask if you're being charged for them. The server responds no, we gave you a couple extra and they're free of charge, enjoy! The following week you go to a different restaurant and order 10 wings again, this time you receive 8, the wings are damn good but you feel cheated and you're going to be left a little hungry. Do you just say to yourself, oh well they're good wings I don't care if I didn't get how many I'm paying for, or do you say something to the server and get what you payed for? So you say something, the servers response is "sorry, I know you were supposed to get 10 but we decided to only give people 8 wings when they order 10". Don't you feel a little cheated and upset at this point? Might some people be happy and satisfied with the 8 wings, certainly, but you shouldn't expect others to be accepting of getting less than what they payed for.

In the situation with the the the wings as well as the hp with the RX-8 vs. Z28 hp there is absolutely no double standard. A double standard would be an ethical or moral code that applies more strictly to one group than to another, and that simply isn't the case with your nor my example.

Also, comparing aftermarket performance gains with published legally binding claims made by an automanufacturer is a downright fallacy. There are actuall legal standards by which auto manufacturers must conform, and the published hp numbers must be within 5% of the claimed hp. No such law for aftermarket parts exists to my knowledge.

Lastly, I don't think it's the published numbers that people have a problem with. It's the fact that people bought the car with 238 or 247hp on their window sticker having faith in Mazda that it was actually there. They may have driven the car and still loved it and bought it, but does that make them any less entitled to get what they paid for? Just because you get 8 great tasting wings when you ordered 10 doesn't mean you should be expected to be satisfied because they tasted great.

PoLaK

11-21-2004, 05:33 PM

Thx to your ass i just ordered 18 buffalo wings.

valpac

11-21-2004, 05:34 PM

Ike, do you own an RX-8?

rotarygod

11-21-2004, 05:44 PM

A double standard is complaining about not getting what was advertised in one scenario but not complaining when the situation is reversed. To be totally fair, you should either bitch for both situations or accept both. I am in the latter. I'm not John Kerry. I stick to only one point of view. There is NO lost power in the Renesis. There never was and there never will be. If we want to get really stupid about this topic then any engine lacking a turbo is "losing" power. This whole thread is ridiculous and that is just as logical an argument. What's more important, how a car performs or what a brochure says? The car performs exactly as advertised. Maybe everyone should be happy that the car is faster than it should be if it in fact even did have less power. Try looking at it that way.

Your chicken wing analogy is ridiculous because 8 wings won't fill you up like 10 equal sized will. They aren't performing as advertised. The car is. What if your 8 wings were much larger than the guy next to you who has 10? Yours are equally as filling which meets the performance standard. Are you still being ripped off or are you still concerned solely on numbers?

Aoshi Shinomori

11-21-2004, 06:05 PM

With all this talk of chicken wings I'm surprised we haven't seen Flatso yet in this thread :p

Ike

11-21-2004, 06:17 PM

Ike

11-21-2004, 06:20 PM

Ike, do you own an RX-8?

Nope, it didn't meet up to my expectations in the power department, what's your point? Just because I don't own an RX-8 doesn't mean my opinion and argument is any less valid.

rx8wannahave

11-21-2004, 06:36 PM

Ike...I know you have said that before but since you have a WRX (non STI) and the numbers are very similar...do you mean you did not like HOW the RX8 put's it's numbers to use?

rotarygod

11-21-2004, 06:45 PM

Ike

11-21-2004, 06:45 PM

Ike...I know you have said that before but since you have a WRX (non STI) and the numbers are very similar...do you mean you did not like HOW the RX8 put's it's numbers to use?

The numbers are similar and the WRX will win in most time straightline tests but the feeling of acceleration in the WRX is greater, you get pushed back in your seat and the turbo rush is a blast. Launching an AWD turbo performance car is some of the most fun that can be had on 4 wheels as far as I'm concerned, yes my tranny and clutch are just fine :p Lastly my WRX in sock form clearly wasn't fast enough for me either since it didn't stay that way long. I bought it knowing how easy and cheap it was to make it faster, and fully intended to do so from the start. It's now back to mostly stock for winter and ummm... another reason... I'm bummed about it, but that'll all change once we get a nice snowfall! :D

rx8wannahave

11-21-2004, 06:55 PM

OK, I understand...

It's now back to mostly stock for winter and ummm... another reason...

IkeWRX...what did you do? LOL

Ike

11-21-2004, 06:59 PM

What's so baffling about the wing analogy? If in fact you are buying wings based on quantity, then yes you should get that number. However the RX-8 isn't being sold based on it's horsepower number. It is being sold based on it's performance and looks. Numbers are irrelevant. I don't think horsepower numbers numbers should even be quoted on cars anymore. At least not as a sales tool. Cars weigh different amounts and the same power in one car isn't the same performance wise as it is in another. Get in the car and drive it. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't. Numbers have noting to do with it. No one has proved the engine is how on pwer anyways since no one was there when the baseline number was setup. Chassis dynos are such unreliable crap that they are only for general comparative purposes only and not to be used for actual accurate numbers at the flywheel which is how cars are rated. If numbers are so important and people are ridiculous enough to think they can even feel 8 hp (no one can btw!), then the only thing that should be stated about a car in its specs is the horsepower to weight ratio. This thread is still stupid. It has just gotten worse since no one gets it. There is no lost power.

Wings are bought in numbers, I've never seen them offered differently, just as cars are bought all the time based on hp numbers. I don't exactly agree with that and agree with some of your points. I especially agree with "Get in the car and drive it. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't." which is why I'm not here complaining about my RX-8. I drove it, it didn't feel like 247hp, nor 238hp, it fell short of my expectations and the viability of adding hp cheaply and easily was in question in my mind. However had I driven it and was happy with the acceleration bought one and then found out I didn't get the advertised hp I'd still be a little salty.

I agree there is no power lost, it was never there in the first place and I for one have had a problem with that since the first time I drove the car. But I let my money do the talking. Finally, you are focusing on the name of the thread which was not the original thread title so you can blame Elara or some other mod for that one since the thread was merged was an older one. Would it make you feel any better if the thread was titled why can't Mazda put the correct horsepower figure on their cars?

Ike

11-21-2004, 07:01 PM

OK, I understand...

IkeWRX...what did you do? LOL

It's just the man trying to keep me down! ;)

Aoshi Shinomori

11-21-2004, 07:09 PM

Ike...I know you have said that before but since you have a WRX (non STI) and the numbers are very similar...do you mean you did not like HOW the RX8 put's it's numbers to use?
The WRX is hands down faster than the RX8, there really isn't a comparison.

Ike

11-21-2004, 07:23 PM

The WRX is hands down faster than the RX8, there really isn't a comparison.

From a stop absolutely, from a roll assuming both are in a their powerband they would be pretty damn close stock for stock.

valpac

11-21-2004, 07:29 PM

Nope, it didn't meet up to my expectations in the power department, what's your point? Just because I don't own an RX-8 doesn't mean my opinion and argument is any less valid.

Just trying to understand what your role here is.. I understand now.

Ike

11-21-2004, 07:37 PM

Just trying to understand what your role here is.. I understand now.

Well, I was one of the people to come out originally after driving the car and say there's no way it has 247hp, there were also a few dynos. I was flamed repeatedly for it, and many people just couldn't fathom how I could think the RX-8 wasn't making 247hp. They also couldn't believe that Mazda would lie to them, as far as I'm concerned this thread is just history repeating itself, but this time I actually have a few people in my corner. In addition to that it's just an interesting debate, as long as people can keep it civil.

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-21-2004, 09:47 PM

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-21-2004, 09:49 PM

Did you even read what a double standard is? Saying you "should either bitch about both situations or accept both" is asanine, and I can't even fathom how you would really believe that. The car isn't advertised as running a 14.5 1/4 mile that I've ever seen, however it is and was advertised as having 247/238 hp.

Clearly.

Aoshi Shinomori

11-21-2004, 09:52 PM

From a stop absolutely, from a roll assuming both are in a their powerband they would be pretty damn close stock for stock.
How many WRXs remain stock for more than 2 months? I can see from a roll it would be close, but the aftermarket is so much bigger than what we have. Don't get me wrong, I am going to buy this car, but I'm buying it knowing that there are a lot of faster cars out there. It would be hard to get a stock vs. stock in this matchup, and if both were modded, we'd see the WRX thrashing the RX8.

Ike

11-21-2004, 10:09 PM

How many WRXs remain stock for more than 2 months? I can see from a roll it would be close, but the aftermarket is so much bigger than what we have. Don't get me wrong, I am going to buy this car, but I'm buying it knowing that there are a lot of faster cars out there. It would be hard to get a stock vs. stock in this matchup, and if both were modded, we'd see the WRX thrashing the RX8.

No doubt, it's tough to find a stock WRX and many any people that buy them buy with the intention of modding, myself included. $15 and a trip to home depot for homemade MBC parts for the WRX means the RX-8 can put on just about every bolt on available (save for nitrous) and most likely still get beat. I said what I did because I was trying to keep it a comparison of stock cars.

Aoshi Shinomori

11-21-2004, 10:29 PM

No doubt, it's tough to find a stock WRX and many any people that buy them buy with the intention of modding, myself included. $15 and a trip to home depot for homemade MBC parts for the WRX means the RX-8 can put on just about every bolt on available (save for nitrous) and most likely still get beat. I said what I did because I was trying to keep it a comparison of stock cars.
I understand the comparison, but I also need to say that these cars are in different classes as far as the aftermarket, and what each car was meant to be. I don't see them as being too similar at all. I was just saying that WRX's get modded so much that a situation like that is going to be so difficult to find. Sorry for the confusion.

Ike

11-21-2004, 10:32 PM

I understand the comparison, but I also need to say that these cars are in different classes as far as the aftermarket, and what each car was meant to be. I don't see them as being too similar at all. I was just saying that WRX's get modded so much that a situation like that is going to be so difficult to find. Sorry for the confusion.

We do get the fun stuff when it comes to the aftermarket. I love it, but my bank account doesn't :p

Aoshi Shinomori

11-21-2004, 10:33 PM

We do get the fun stuff when it comes to the aftermarket. I love it, but my bank account doesn't :p
Haha, my older brother will be trading in his GTI soon and probably will be getting a WRX, so I might be asking you a few questions here and there.

Ike

11-21-2004, 10:36 PM

No problem, just shoot me a PM.

quack_p

11-21-2004, 11:52 PM

No doubt, it's tough to find a stock WRX and many any people that buy them buy with the intention of modding, myself included. $15 and a trip to home depot for homemade MBC parts for the WRX means the RX-8 can put on just about every bolt on available (save for nitrous) and most likely still get beat. I said what I did because I was trying to keep it a comparison of stock cars.
Speaking as a non-racer, it seems to me it's a lot easier to make the RX-8 faster than to make the WRX less ugly. :p It's like saying Quasi Modo is a fast runner. I still don't want to look at him.

dragula53

11-22-2004, 03:34 AM

I happen to think my WRX looks aggressive as hell.

Every time I see one going the opposite direction on the highway I see something aggressive and snorty... some sort of growling beastly thing.

functional hood scoops are great.

this is as opposed to sinuous and graceful looking curvey lines of the rx-8.

It's like comparing a badger to a panther.

and it is far far easier to make the WRX faster than it is to make the rx-8 faster.

rx8wannahave

11-22-2004, 08:09 AM

IkeWRX aint a bad guy...he loves his WRX and likes the RX8. His role is to keep us honest sometimes...but I think he likes RX8 people better than WRX people since he hangs around us so much...LOL

Ike, what are the two bananas doing? I hope it's nice...LOL???

zevans

11-22-2004, 09:53 AM

If this thread gets locked there will just be another one in a few weeks, and when that one is locked another one a few weeks after that...

And meanwhile I will still be beating cars with twice the torque point-to-point...

G8rboy

11-22-2004, 10:46 AM

Speaking as a non-racer, it seems to me it's a lot easier to make the RX-8 faster than to make the WRX less ugly. :p It's like saying Quasi Modo is a fast runner. I still don't want to look at him.

Best line I've heard in a long time :D

Ike

11-22-2004, 11:05 AM

And meanwhile I will still be beating cars with twice the torque point-to-point...

You just keep whooping up on those diesel engines! :p

Hard 8

11-22-2004, 12:05 PM

Major thread drift here!

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-22-2004, 09:29 PM

Major thread drift here!

Hard 8,

When some people complained in the Richard Paul axial supercharger thread that it was getting off topic, one moderator explained that the off-topic stuff is relevant, positive, and important because it helps to build relationships on this forum.

I can see the same thing happening here.

Ike

11-22-2004, 09:32 PM

Yeah... feel the love...

Japan8

11-23-2004, 03:17 AM

No problem, just shoot me a PM.

Speaking of which... what do you think about the new Legacy GT? Better yet... I should start a new thread on this. http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=624719#post624719

zevans

11-23-2004, 07:54 AM

You just keep whooping up on those diesel engines! :p

Like the one in my Leon 110 TDi... ;)

(Which I'm selling to get an MR2 by the way :p )

I've decided - I'm gonna do some sort of torque PER TON AT THE WHEELS graph to try and debunk some of these myths once and for all. Be interesting to have 8 vs WRX vs TDi vs 350 vs a couple of other 14ish second cars doncha think?

rx8wannahave

11-23-2004, 08:44 AM

Japan8....nooo, please don't give me another car to put on my list of possiblities...LOL

I think it looks good and performs very well.

catinaround69

11-23-2004, 03:42 PM

There is an ECU upgrade out that claims 40hp gain.

http://www.canzoomer.com/CZ-Performance.html

quack_p

11-23-2004, 07:21 PM

There is an ECU upgrade out that claims 40hp gain.

http://www.canzoomer.com/CZ-Performance.html
Is there anyone who has independently tested claims like this? Which products have independently been shown to increase hp and by how much?

rx8wannahave

11-23-2004, 07:45 PM

Yeah! Lol

valpac

11-23-2004, 08:16 PM

Is there anyone who has independently tested claims like this? Which products have independently been shown to increase hp and by how much?

Just sent Canzoomer an e-mail requesting more info (test results) on their +20HP gain claim for the Stage 1 Tuner. We'll see what they have to say.

rx8wannahave

11-23-2004, 08:56 PM

Thanks valpac....someone needed to do it and most of us were to lazy to do it...THANKS!

Ike

11-23-2004, 09:27 PM

Uhhh, why don't you just ask the numerous people that already paid for the Canzoomer and have it sitting in their garage rather than on their car what they think about it?

TyrellCorpNexus8

11-23-2004, 09:39 PM

Uhhh, why don't you just ask the numerous people that already paid for the Canzoomer and have it sitting in their garage rather than on their car what they think about it?

Something is out of whack here. LOL.

rx8wannahave

11-24-2004, 08:02 AM

Uhhh, why don't you just ask the numerous people that already paid for the Canzoomer and have it sitting in their garage rather than on their car what they think about it?

...and these people are...? I'll go search...and see what is said.

Omicron

11-24-2004, 09:59 PM

Ok, all the name calling and tit for tat has been removed from this thread. Do NOT start it up again - here or elsewhere - or we'll start handing out bans.

Ike

11-24-2004, 10:03 PM

Thanks for reopening the thread, that way when it comes up again, and it will, we won't have to start all over again.

Omicron

11-24-2004, 11:25 PM

Thanks for reopening the thread, that way when it comes up again, and it will, we won't have to start all over again.Sure we will. It's one of those incessantly reoccurring topics. ;)

Ike

11-24-2004, 11:34 PM

Sure we will. It's one of those incessantly reoccurring topics. ;)

At least we can be realy mean to the noob, tell him to do a search, and then point him to this thread though :p

cretinx

01-28-2005, 12:44 PM

By replacing the Mazda ECU or installing a piggyback programmable computer like the Canzoomer or Greddy E-Manage, an individual can lean out the mixture and get 20 or 25 hp back. However, they WILL sacrifice the life of their cat converter.

Regards,
Gordon

Or you can just ditch the cat and run a midpipe.

Smells pretty good.

zoom44

01-28-2005, 12:53 PM

Thanks for reopening the thread, that way when it comes up again, and it will, we won't have to start all over again.

funny here's this thread again and yet we have another similiar topic thread with multiple pages in th elawsuit one. so should i close one of them?

nsxpowered

03-22-2005, 10:28 PM

Is there something wrong with me? I seem to read the CAPS faster and easier then the normal lowercase size.

sferrett

03-22-2005, 10:53 PM

Uhhh, why don't you just ask the numerous people that already paid for the Canzoomer and have it sitting in their garage rather than on their car what they think about it?

Funny - I have one sitting in my garage, not in the car...

I have been thinking about putting it back in and tuning it but haven't quite got around to it yet.

Frank Patrick

03-23-2005, 03:41 PM

Get the N-Flash, then tell us if you more HP.

Deslock

03-24-2005, 08:54 AM

There is no lost power.
I thought I read that some tuning changes for certain markets (such as N America) resulted in a hp decrease and that it still hits 247 hp in Japan. Not that it matters much...

I'm not John Kerry. I stick to only one point of view.
This is an old list, but...

Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.
Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.
Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care."
Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.
Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.
Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote
Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.
Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

(personally, I don't think everything there is considered changing one's point of view, but you get the point)

Deslock

03-24-2005, 08:54 AM

The WRX is hands down faster than the RX8, there really isn't a comparison.WRX = faster at mid-range RPM
RX8 = faster at high RPM

Overall, they're close but the WRX is quicker in most situations... the point is they are comparable.

Deslock

03-24-2005, 08:59 AM

I drove it, it didn't feel like 247hp, nor 238hp, it fell short of my expectations and the viability of adding hp cheaply and easily was in question in my mind.All valid points. On a side note, a lot of people said the same thing about the S2000. I've driven both cars many times; the RX8 is a little slower, but it feels similar overall (acceleration-wise) and the difference is from it weighing a bit more and making slightly less hp.

Suppose the RX8 makes a peak of 226 hp (within the legal margin of error, but a bit short of the rated 238). Even if it made 238 (or 247), it still wouldn't feel like it to most people because they're acustomed the 240 hp meaning more pull at lower RPM.
Wings are bought in numbers, I've never seen them offered differentlyI often see them sold by the pound, which is a much more meaningful measurement than quantity. Likewise, 5-60, 0-60, and 1/4 mile give much more info than peak hp.

The RX8 is a mid 14s car; When people ask me what its hp is, I say "Eh, 'bout 220 230". I really couldn't care less as I bought it for its other driving dynamics.

Ike

03-24-2005, 05:51 PM

All valid points. On a side note, a lot of people said the same thing about the S2000. I've driven both cars many times; the RX8 is a little slower, but it feels similar overall (acceleration-wise) and the difference is from it weighing a bit more and making slightly less hp.

Suppose the RX8 makes a peak of 226 hp (within the legal margin of error, but a bit short of the rated 238). Even if it made 238 (or 247), it still wouldn't feel like it to most people because they're acustomed the 240 hp meaning more pull at lower RPM.
I often see them sold by the pound, which is a much more meaningful measurement than quantity. Likewise, 5-60, 0-60, and 1/4 mile give much more info than peak hp.

The RX8 is a mid 14s car; When people ask me what its hp is, I say "Eh, 'bout 220 230". I really couldn't care less as I bought it for its other driving dynamics.

A lot of people may have said the same thing about the S2K, but I didn't feel that way. I felt it pulled nicely in the upper RPMs and felt a good margin faster than the RX-8. I didn't drive them close to the same time so maybe I would have felt differently if I had driven them back to back but I doubt it.

I'm not going to go back and read my chicken wing analogy. But I agree the acceleration numbers mean more than the HP numbers, but they also correlate.
The trap speeds of the RX-8 are a pretty good indication that it's not making the advertised HP. The numbers it puts up are also nothing special in todays car market considering there are several family sedans and inexpensive, sporty FWD cars making similar or better numbers. If you bought the car for it's dynamics I fully understand, it's a very fun car to drive even if it's not overly impressive in a straight line. But for me and many others a little more kick in the pants when you mash the gas would have been much appreciated and probably would have led to the RX-8 being a much greater success.