www.vtec.net

Looks like Honda may be finally admitting its hit the automotive glass ceiling, that is without FI or a V8, they are unable to build a super car that can compete with the Euro's in terms of raw numbers. Combined with the slow sales of the S2000, Honda could lose both RWD cars.

Its kinda sad, b/c porsche gets by fine with a H6 and a little FI, I can't see why Honda won't go there. But, unlike Mazda, they don't have several vehicles they can build off of there sports car halo platform.

Be interesting to see how this on turns out. I hope fhey don't get rid of the S2000, the NSX is certainly past its prime, but I think we can all admit the S2000 is a sweet little ride.

If that happens, Honda will basically become a duplicate of Toyota.

doesnt toyota have the tundra... that is special i used to have one they are cool trucks!

It would be a huge mistake for Honda to get rid of the S2000, unless they replace it with something perhaps a bit more practical, perhaps something that seats 4 people.

The world needs a Honda Supra!! Yes, thats it, a Honda Supra I tell ya!! :D

Originally posted by T.T.
If that happens, Honda will basically become a duplicate of Toyota.

I am sure Honda wants to be Toyota, they are the most profitable Japanese manufacture in the world.

Originally posted by brillo
www.vtec.net ...But, unlike Mazda, they don't have several vehicles they can build off of there sports car halo platform.

Be interesting to see how this on turns out. I hope fhey don't get rid of the S2000, the NSX is certainly past its prime, but I think we can all admit the S2000 is a sweet little ride.

I've owned several Honda's in the past (70's, 80's, 90's). I loved each one dearly. They were great little cars, with quick reflexes, economical, and cleverly designed.

But each model evolution has taken Honda further and further away from refined small fun cars and more towards Camry type transportation modules, and fairly unrefined economy cars - abiet good ones - with the S2000, (Acura) NSX, and late lamented Prelude, the noteable exceptions.

The Accord is a perfect example of what is right and wrong w/Honda. A very capable car wrapped in a Buick body, that I wouldn't want to own because I'd be ashamed to be seen in one - the same feeling I have about many American brand cars. And that's despite the fact I think it one fine car - just butt ugly.

Apparently Honda doesn't mind as sales are good - and is willing to forget the crowd of enthusiasts for the most part. Too bad.

I find that Honda has followed Toyota in that they have taken all the excitement out of their cars. Their styling shows that and so do their sales. Selling big numbers means appealing to as broad a spectrum of buyers as possible. Middle of the road, bread and butter, call it what you will, as good as they may be mechanically, they are bland, bland, bland.
It's no accident that a couple of years ago, Nissan sales skyrocketed. Bold styling was what the market wanted and with Nissan/Infiniti sales show that. Now Mazda sales are booming (my dealer has sold out of the 3's and 6's are in short supply) Enjoying sales due to styling IMO.
NSX can't compete with a high-end Porsche or Ferrari or Maserati, etc... on an emotional level. On paper, specs suggest a great car, but dropping 125 large on a car, you have to LOVE it! That's something that's missing on the NSX. I drove one of the earlier NSX when it was first introduced. I got in, inserted the key and the chime (you know the ding, ding sound when you put in a key in the ignition) sounded EXACTLY the same as a Civic. Not exactly a visceral driving experience. They should have killed it long ago.
But why would they kill the S2000? It's a great sportscar.

tis a sad day for honda, i remember the last prelude...i really wanted that car, now its gone. ITs funny how honda will continue to make excellent F1 cars but shy away from any kind of true performance machine in their future lineup. Perhaps they should take one of those 2.5L V8s from the F1 cars and make it into a 900HP beast of a supercar. haha

They should just stick two V-6 blocks together and make a V-12 for the new NSX. If Ford/Aston can manage it, I'm sure Honda could too, especially since the car costs ~$100k. Not that I'm such a power freak, but I think people need a pretty good reason to drop that kind of cash on a Honda.

Originally posted by MazdaspeedFeras
tis a sad day for honda, i remember the last prelude...i really wanted that car, now its gone. ITs funny how honda will continue to make excellent F1 cars but shy away from any kind of true performance machine in their future lineup. Perhaps they should take one of those 2.5L V8s from the F1 cars and make it into a 900HP beast of a supercar. haha

2.5L V8s? That's not Honda F1, in F1 they are running 3.0 L V10 redline just under 20k rpm with 920hp plus. Love the sound of Honda V10. It would be great if they make the new NSX V10.

Originally posted by m477
They should just stick two V-6 blocks together and make a V-12 for the new NSX. If Ford/Aston can manage it, I'm sure Honda could too, especially since the car costs ~$100k. Not that I'm such a power freak, but I think people need a pretty good reason to drop that kind of cash on a Honda.

Honda V6 from the NSX is wide-angle 90 degrees V6, it would be hard to put it together.

A V10 NSX would be the ride! Can you imagine? Especially if they still kept somewhat of a mid engine? Not sure if it could fit right up there, but its CofG would be incredible!

Model after this, hehehe:

http://www.crash.net/pictures/large/71783.jpg

Originally posted by Hanzo
Honda V6 from the NSX is wide-angle 90 degrees V6, it would be hard to put it together.
I was actually thinking of the 60-degree V-6 in the Accord, etc. Besides, it would probably be cheaper that way - a parts bin supercar if you will.

Originally posted by m477
I was actually thinking of the 60-degree V-6 in the Accord, etc. Besides, it would probably be cheaper that way - a parts bin supercar if you will.

V6 from Accord is not built to be a sports engine. It is only SOHC and low revving.

Right, so I guess the LS6 isn't a "sports engine" either. Next time I see a Z06 I will tell the driver what a nice truck they have. :p

Originally posted by m477
Right, so I guess the LS6 isn't a "sports engine" either. Next time I see a Z06 I will tell the driver what a nice truck they have. :p

The LS6 and LS1 are built on a different concept, it has torque, Honda V6 build for Accord is with fuel economy in mind. Different engine built for different purpose. Japanese engines usually have higher rpm more horsepower less torque. I am sure Honda is not going to build a sports car without its DOHC VTEC.

S1000? not any where as fast but some info if u havent herd already.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=740&page_number=3&preview=

if you'll notice that article hinted at a supra return too :)

honestly as a company do u think honda is looking to hit on the majority of poeple who want a car to take from a to b and be comfortable in or the enthusiasts population which is considerally smaller. They have the civic that the budget enthusiast can purchase.

its sad that they wud get rid of the s2000 and well the nsx.. what can i say it looks nice but id never purchase it for that price id go for a viper

Originally posted by m477
Right, so I guess the LS6 isn't a "sports engine" either. Next time I see a Z06 I will tell the driver what a nice truck they have. :p

The LS6 is 5.7 liters, so it's about twice the displacement of the Honda.

It kind of reminds me a Dodge commerical way back when they first made the Viper and the announcer was bragging about the car's 400 hp. I thought to myself, IT'S 8 LITERS! Any monkey can get 400 hp out of 8 liters. Try it with only 3.5 liters, that's some engineering.

Sorry for ranting.

Originally posted by northern-8


It kind of reminds me a Dodge commerical way back when they first made the Viper and the announcer was bragging about the car's 400 hp. I thought to myself, IT'S 8 LITERS! Any monkey can get 400 hp out of 8 liters. Try it with only 3.5 liters, that's some engineering.

Sorry for ranting.


but there is no fun in buying a car that has an engine already maxed out. would you rather buy a car with a fully built 1000 hp motor or buy one with a 400 hp motor and add that extra 600 yourself?

Originally posted by jonnyb
but there is no fun in buying a car that has an engine already maxed out. would you rather buy a car with a fully built 1000 hp motor or buy one with a 400 hp motor and add that extra 600 yourself?

No brainer. I'll take 1000 HP from the factory any day. Reliability, warranty, and optimal tuning of all components. At least I know that the factory will try to make those 1000 HP useable. What is the use of 1000 HP if other components in the car only makes your tires spin out all the time? Can we say Dyno Queen? BTW I'm pretty sure 1000 HP from the factory will be fun. Cars are meant to be driven not to be a engineering project.

Back to original post....I pretty sure this is wild speculation. Honda is one the few profitable automakers in the world. Too much damage to marketing and PR campaign to justify killing off these two vehicles.

Porsche in F1? I haven't followed F1 for a couple of years but I don't believe Porsche has a car or engine in F1. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by 911SC
Porsche in F1? I haven't followed F1 for a couple of years but I don't believe Porsche has a car or engine in F1. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, Porsches never had a F1 car but they did supply engine however that was long time ago. They are not in F1 at all for the past several years.

Yeah, the S2000 is no way maxed out on power. Just the intake exhaust and computer can boost up the S2K to 270whp (Amuse S2000).

The S2000 is cool, but ut should have been badged an Accura given the price and low production run. Honda should re-introduce a fun sporty inexpensive car that is the true heir to the crx, del sol niche.

As for Toyota, one of the big car mags had renderings of th 06 Supra. This would make sense since Toyota tries to fill every popular niche and the sports car/sedan market is heating up.

I sadly agree about the slow death of Honda . . . comparing my 1991 Civic Si to the new Si hatch, it's just sad. The new Si is wider, longer, taller, about 600 pounds heavier, ditches the double-wishbone suspension for Mac struts, has a lame powerplant, and comes with TERRIBLE tires. My Si is much more fun to drive, much more connected to the road, and exemplifies the "sport compact" ethos.

The new Si came in DEAD LAST in Sport Compact Car's "Eight Cars Under $20,000" shootout, which is just sad. When Dodge can out-Honda Honda, something's very, very wrong.

Peace
policy

hahha dodge sucks!

I think Honda can still go farther with their 6. I mean BMW is able to pull 333hp out of their strait six, but Honda has some weird reluctance to go FI or over V6, but to compete with the other supercars which have 400+hp they will have to do it. The Honda performance mark has been VTEC, and now it looks like they don't want to abandon that to find something innovative in another area of engine design.

Originally posted by Rotarian_SC
I think Honda can still go farther with their 6. I mean BMW is able to pull 333hp out of their strait six, but Honda has some weird reluctance to go FI or over V6, but to compete with the other supercars which have 400+hp they will have to do it. The Honda performance mark has been VTEC, and now it looks like they don't want to abandon that to find something innovative in another area of engine design.

Honda never built an I6 so I doubt they will do that for their flagship super car. Besides I6 wouldn't fit mid-mounted transversely. A V-layout would be a better fit for mid engine car anyway.

If you notice Supra and Skyline GT-R (both I6 twin turbo with cast iron block) stop production not only for emission reasons but also the I6 has too much overhang weight on the nose cause an uneven weight distribution. The reason why BMWs' I6 works is because of its cast aluminum block but the problem with that is it not as strong as cast iron block. There is always a catch.

it's really about time they killed NSX production. That car is really outdated. Nice 10 years ago, but now it can't really hold it's own against cars in the same segment.

Hell, look at the top gear's lap times
# Vauxhall VX220 Turbo - 1.31.3
# Honda NSX Type R - 1.31.6
# BMW M3 - 1.31.8
# Nissan 350Z - 1.31.8
# Mazda RX-8 - 1.31.8

it's somewhat shameful that a $100k can't go through that course faster than a VX220.

it's got a 290hp 3.2l v6, that's shameful from Honda these days. I'm sure if BMW can do 111hp/liter in their 3l I6, Honda can edge output over 300 horses. I know it's not all about horsepower, but only a diehard NSX fan would buy one instead of other excellent cars in the same price segment.

Yeah yeah, everyday supercar, blah blah reliability. If I had enough money to buy a $100k car, I'd probably have enough to buy another car for daily commutes or whatever.

Btw, I think the problem with aluminum blocks is the piston to wall friction. Aluminum blocks require some sort of cylinder liner, not really as easy as just poking a hole in an iron block. I'm pretty sure the issue isn't cracking blocks so much as keeping the cylinder liner intact.

Losing the s2k is a real shame, they should keep that platform and make econobox versions and 2+2 versions or some sorta platform sharing thing. Take note from VW/Audi, do they have a car that isn't golf based? or Nissan, or even GM with their new kappa platform.

Originally posted by shawnio
it's got a 290hp 3.2l v6, that's shameful from Honda these days. I'm sure if BMW can do 111hp/liter in their 3l I6, Honda can edge output over 300 horses.

Just a minor correction - the M3 engine is a 3.2 liter I-6, so about 104HP/liter.

And yes the NSX power output is is shameful these days as the 3.2 in the TL puts out 270HP and more torque across the entire rev range for 1/3 the price. I am sure Honda could get 400HP out of a 3.5 liter V6 engine if they wanted to, especially for a $90k flagship car.

Oh - and someone at Temple of VTEC called Honda about the death of the NSX and was told it will still be around, although the HSC may not be the immediate replacement. The magazine may have been making up news based on rumours...

Some people are also speculating that there might be a honda/acura sports car priced in the $40-50k segment, which MIGHT be the HSC. Which means that Honda might have a car to compete in the M3/S4 segment as well as an exotic to compete against the > $90k higher-end cars.

Check out this vid of the concept HSC. Looks far too promising to be shelved at this point of time. If the next-gen nsx is anything like the car in the video I would love to get my hands on one of those babies!!


http://www.honda.co.jp/motorshow/2003/auto/hsc/promo-video/broadband/index.html

Looks like a Koennigsegg (sp) CC mixed with a semi Corvette tail. I do agree that they would probably not develop this if they weren't at least going to replace the S2000 or NSX with something.

I agree with the comments about Honda jumping the shark. A few years ago my wife was looking to replace her '89 Prelude which she loved. We went to a Honda dealer and after a few minutes the salesman asks "what would it take to put you in this car today?" It was at that point that I realized that Honda had sunken to the level of GM and Ford. Very sad.

It makes me sad that the corporation who made my beloved Integra would shy away from performance

that car looks like a bat mobile it aint gonna get made

I never even heard of such a replacement. I don't see why they need to anyways. I'm not really sure that sales are slow for the S2K. Honda does not mass produce its S2K line, and does not really advertise the car in general.

man, this thread has some pretty dumb comments.

seeing the Americans now shifting toward reinventing their product lines (something called for from the public over the last decade) in the sedan market from FWD V6 POS's into awesome, cool RWD V* cruisemobiles that actually look good means that they see some huge opportunity and high demand for exciting cars. if Honda drops all its sports cars (halo effect has a lot to say, just ask Chevy, or Dodge now with the new "hemi", or Ford with the "GT") they'll be in serious trouble, and end up handing American market share to Toyota (which is where i believe Honda is most successful, car-wise... they're realtively not very popular in Japan).

anyways, to clear a few things up: F1 cars are so far gone from road cars that it's completely retarded to think that any of the design concepts incorperated into a modern F1 machine would have any positive merit on the street, or the sports car circuit. sure, those 3.0L V10's make ~900hp (everyone likes to round up), but they'll run strong for about 400kms before they need a complete rebuild, and blow up promptly if they don't (and as you can see from watching the sport, usually before that). it's like a Ferrari engine of yore: they're designed for performance, and designed to be consumed while performing. that kind of ownership is not something anyone is willing to commit to with a regular car anymore... hell, people get pissed when they have to spend $200 to get their A/C recharged, or their brakes machined and relined.

the comments about displacement belong on a ricer forum: in the real world, in terms of real performance, it doesn't matter how much displacement you have, it's not cheating if you have more, it's just a different way of going about making power. as you can see by the engine weights in another thread, the Chevy smallblock 350 is a powerhouse and a featherweight, making really good power for its size. the pushrod architecture allows it to just cram a whole lot of piston into a tight little package which GM has made pretty darned efficient over the years. consider the VTEC system which makes Honda DOHC heads a mile high, and add about 30lbs to the mass of the engine for just the capability to run two different cam profiles. it's not that VTEC helps you make more power than you could without it, but just that it's a comprimise system to get some decent fuel saving bottom end performance and opening up the valves in the top end for some fun-type power. using a single cam profile for intake and exhaust you could hit anywhere between those two comprimises, and of course even above or below and save a whole ton of complexity and wieght out of the head. i'm trying here to illustrate that there is no clear-cut best way to design an engine, which is why we have so many different ones. fwiw i dont' like the Viper engine either, but the chrysler 2.2L turbo is growing on me for sure.

that's a really cool video, i'd never seen the HSC in such detail before. it borrows a lot from a lot of different cars, but if they made it is still pretty cool. i don't like though, how Honda seems to think that their cars have to portray the clinically sterile emphasis they like to put on their engines: i agree it's sometimes unusual to get romantic about engines, btu the things that they move (cars, people) should have some amount of meaning and presence about them.

Well-said wakeech. There seems to be a mindset among the domestic bashers that "good" engines must have a high power-to-combustion-volume ratio. Why do people think this way? Consider the push-rod powered Corvette. That car is amazingly fuel efficient (>25 mpg highway) for how well it performs.

Whatever happened to the S1000 Honda was taunting the JDM with?

Doesn't the Corvette make good mpg only because by default it skips 2nd and 3rd gear in the manual transmission? How does the 5.7 V8 do for emmissions?

The Corvette is a LEV and receives the same EPA pollution score as the Honda S2000 (6/10). Interestingly enough, the EPA predicts that the S2000 will emit 400lbs more greenhouse gases during a year of driving than the Corvette will due to its slightly poorer gas mileage.

All facts taken from http://www.fueleconomy.gov

I do not think it is a good idea for any car company to produce nothing but image cars. Ever heard of Mosler? Yeah, I think they are the second best seller in the world. NO! Sports cars are a niche market, and by niche market that means low volume, high price. Sports cars come with compromises as well. Is it possible for Honda to put high performance engines in all of their cars? Yes. Is it profitable? No. If Honda is heading in the direction of killing off the S2000 and the NSX, so be it. Soichiro Honda wanted to make cars for everyone. That was his dream. Sure, he was a race car driver, but he was also practical. His works can be seen even today in every Honda. I believe Honda is heading in the right direction (VTEC-i, hybrid engines, etc.). Kudos to you Honda :).