Does it feel like it goes lame at the point in the rpms? Is there supposed to be a bit of a bite when the ports open up? When I'm to the floor going up the rpm band myself I don't notice any pull in performance at any specific point with my car and I can see the speed rising but it doesn't go up at any noticeable burst either, is there supposed to be one? This has got me curious to the point of where I wonder if I have this issue as well.

Fred, I'd like to find a way to get this curve to you. My scanner doesn't work, do you have a fax?
I do have a fax number but it is a work fax. I'll call you next week to find a way to get it.

^^^Well....post 2005 :D If we started at 0...and posted once a year ....we'd be where we are today :D


And JC could buy the first blower. :D

I think we all understand your situation Richard, and it truly sucks. Field of Dreams my friend....Build it and they will come! I'll buy the SC, its not your fault Mazda is a bunch of &^#*&^$. If you tell me it makes X hp I will believe that. Build it and then put it on another car...use that for the final dyno to market if off of.
Yes Richard...I am grasping at straws and know you will not do this until you can do it right.
Just wishful thinking on my part!

And JC could buy the first blower. :D
Did I tell you that I changed my name :D

Does it feel like it goes lame at the point in the rpms? Is there supposed to be a bit of a bite when the ports open up? When I'm to the floor going up the rpm band myself I don't notice any pull in performance at any specific point with my car and I can see the speed rising but it doesn't go up at any noticeable burst either, is there supposed to be one? This has got me curious to the point of where I wonder if I have this issue as well.


It's the other way around, you feel a sluggish point, a dip in the power band. It shos up on the dyno exactly how it feels. Dull after 6200 then starts to pick up at 7200. But never really feels the same amount of pull. :(

Hey RP, I have one of your shifters and live about 100 miles from you. If you need some definitive comparision to prove you have a problem with your car, I might be able to help. I was at Mazfest, and on the straights, mine runs with the rest of them. And it does want to slam into the fuel cutoff while seemingly building power, which is what you should be experiencing.

I think we all understand your situation Richard, and it truly sucks. Field of Dreams my friend....Build it and they will come! I'll buy the SC, its not your fault Mazda is a bunch of &^#*&^$. If you tell me it makes X hp I will believe that. Build it and then put it on another car...use that for the final dyno to market if off of.
Yes Richard...I am grasping at straws and know you will not do this until you can do it right.
Just wishful thinking on my part!

Put it on my 2004 S2000 lol j/k kidding guys :D
Just get it into production and I will buy it based on the test bench data alone.

Any updates on the car repair? Has Mazda fixed, or even found, the issue yet?

BTW I just notice we are only 15 posts behind that "other" thread so maybe we should talk about planes or something :)

Mazda's kinda ignoring me. :mad: I'm puting my money on GuitarJunkie, he's coming over in a few days to look at it. :cool:

any chance of seeing the dyno sheet? i looked, but couldn't find it.

Here you go, the Dyno is located here:

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=875775&postcount=1884

interesting.

doesn't the vdi start working right when it goes fubar?
we can pull the motor off the aux ports and try to actuate them by hand--see if that works. with the dump in the afr's, it just looks like the ports aren't actuating...

we can try putting a strip of duct tape across the maf sensor to try to manipulate the readings too.

is the car by any chance an '03? i wasn't paying attention to what year it was when you were first talking about it. i know some of the earlier manifolds went cracky for some reason right when the aux ports were supposed to open.

anyway, i'll come down and see if i can hopefully get something figured out.

thanks for the sheet sigma.

Richard prepare yourself for Dave's arrival. He looks like someone who might sell you drugs in a dark alley somewhere! ;)

is the car by any chance an '03? i wasn't paying attention to what year it was when you were first talking about it. i know some of the earlier manifolds went cracky for some reason right when the aux ports were supposed to open.



Richards car was built in August 2003.....!

interesting.

doesn't the vdi start working right when it goes fubar?
we can pull the motor off the aux ports and try to actuate them by hand--see if that works. with the dump in the afr's, it just looks like the ports aren't actuating...

we can try putting a strip of duct tape across the maf sensor to try to manipulate the readings too.

is the car by any chance an '03? i wasn't paying attention to what year it was when you were first talking about it. i know some of the earlier manifolds went cracky for some reason right when the aux ports were supposed to open.

anyway, i'll come down and see if i can hopefully get something figured out.

thanks for the sheet sigma.

Yes, I remember readin a british motor mag where there test/review sled had this the same problem. It was diagnosed as having a sticky vdi.

vdi we can lock open, and actuate the p6i by hand... even if we don't get it permanently fixed, i'm sure we can make it work.

fred, i thought i looked more like a user than a dealer?????

Sport Compact Car mag was one that had issues with an early dyno. I believe at that time Mazda blamed it on a stuck VDI

snoochies vdi was pretty sticky when i ported his motor. i pulled it out and hosed it off with brakecleen, then wd40 and it seems like that took care of it.

I have since done a new dyno where I did an A/B test with the aux motor disconected. It was 154hp to 171hp but the curve was irratic above the opening point. Who has a fax and a scanner? So I can fax it to you and you post it. Ajax, are you out there?

If this thing curved like others do it would go 180hp. And you wouldn't have the hole in the acceleration that makes you want to shift early.

All that other info about early cars is interesting and I wonder why MazdaUSA didn't know about that. It really has to be in that area because it seems to do it intermitantly. There has been times when I think it worked right but can't be sure.

Don't worry Guitar Junkie this is Chatsworth, the Porn capitol of the world, you can buy or sell anything here. Pills, Powders and a Hooker, your normal Saturday night. :D

mazdausa certainly knew about it because they had the same issue with some cars at the long lead press event at laguna seca

cool, get me some opium or demoral for my migraines! it is the season...

my fax # is:
760-949-1427

i'll scan it and get it up for ya.

cool, get me some opium or demoral for my migraines! it is the season...

my fax # is:
760-949-1427

i'll scan it and get it up for ya.

That still will not work, you need to put my fax number in your call blocking. I left it on your answering machine.
Anyone else have this kind of set up? Lets get this dyno sheet to Guitar Junkie.

man i'm sorry... my bro's phoneline and i don't know how to work all that stuff.

friday lookin' good for you?

Fridays cool by me. I sent the dyno to another member in Nevada. But I think it might be his work number so it will not get picked up till morning.

That still will not work, you need to put my fax number in your call blocking. I left it on your answering machine.
Anyone else have this kind of set up? Lets get this dyno sheet to Guitar Junkie.


I PM'd U

Btw, don't you have a digital cam??
If so, why don't you just do a macro shot of the dyno..

Btw, don't you have a digital cam??
If so, why don't you just do a macro shot of the dyno..


I'm going to try that, thanks LittleJohn.

Hey Jon, gotcha. clear your PM's. :D

I think it worked

Oh fer crizz sakes, file to large. It's just a few lines on a white background. Someone should modernize this site to take pictures.

Gomez, is it daytime down around there? I'm E mailing it to you anyway for shrinking and posting. Sorry 'mez but your it.

If you want, you can email it to me, I'll shrink it and host it:

mdmillscm[at]hotmail.com

I think it worked

Oh fer crizz sakes, file to large. It's just a few lines on a white background. Someone should modernize this site to take pictures.

Gomez, is it daytime down around there? I'm E mailing it to you anyway for shrinking and posting. Sorry 'mez but your it.


Ummm... I don't mean to insult your intelligence or anything like that j/k;).. But most digital cameras will have an option to save pics in a size that is suitable for emailing. It should be under the "Picture Quality" menu or something like that. :D

btw.. fwiw.. you can email me the pic to be "forumized" if you like :D

If you want, you can email it to me, I'll shrink it and host it:

mdmillscm[at]hotmail.com



Thanks, I already E mailed it to the Little guy who is insulting me.j/k ;) :rolleyes:

BTW has anyone answered about the lack of Email notices from the forum?

Ummm... I don't mean to insult your intelligence or anything like that j/k;).. But most digital cameras will have an option to save pics in a size that is suitable for emailing. It should be under the "Picture Quality" menu or something like that. :D

btw.. fwiw.. you can email me the pic to be "forumized" if you like :D


you must understand he's old :p ... old people don't like modern technology. hell, i can hardly keep up with it and i'm only 26!!

Thanks, I already E mailed it to the Little guy who is insulting me.j/k ;) :rolleyes:

BTW has anyone answered about the lack of Email notices from the forum?

Huh?? :confused: :confused:
you did???
when... i don't see it anywhere

EDIT: I think you forgot the ".au" at the end, please resend. :)

Huh?? :confused: :confused:
you did???
when... i don't see it anywhere

EDIT: I think you forgot the ".au" at the end, please resend. :)


What you mean, I just double clicked on the address you sent me.
Ok, I now sent it on the other address. :D

Damn...that was just about 12 post trying to send a pic....we must be caught up to that other thread by now!

OK here it is :)

EDIT: I'm no guru... but RAP, your Dyno doens't look the part :eek: :eek: ... looks like your yellow beast is struggling in the upper rpms.... maybe the vdi is a little sticky and fluttering.
Also where is the RPM scale??? :confused:

OK here it is :)

EDIT: I'm no guru... but RAP, your Dyno doens't look the part :eek: :eek: ... looks like your yellow beast is struggling in the upper rpms.... maybe the vdi is a little sticky and fluttering.
Also where is the RPM scale??? :confused:



That's the point I'm trying to get across. As to the rpm scale I can't even believe the shop printed it out that way. Who the hell cares about the mph?
Anyway you can see the 6200 point because that is where the aux open. This was an A/B test with the aux hooked up and disconected. But it still flutters at the top. That is why we are going to be looking at the little motor.

Guitar Junkie is looking at it for me on Friday. Are you out there Dave? Look at the curve.

Well, the plus side is that you look like you got a good motor. Looks like you'll hit or exceed 180whp once you get the problem fixed.

yeah, then he will exceed 250 when he hooks up the AFSC :)

You can design, engineer, and build a turbine, including machining all the parts with precision but you cant check for a stuck valve without assistance? :)


(not ment as a bash, i just think it's funny)

That's the point I'm trying to get across. As to the rpm scale I can't even believe the shop printed it out that way. Who the hell cares about the mph?
Anyway you can see the 6200 point because that is where the aux open. This was an A/B test with the aux hooked up and disconected. But it still flutters at the top. That is why we are going to be looking at the little motor.

Guitar Junkie is looking at it for me on Friday. Are you out there Dave? Look at the curve.

Well, MazdaUSA themselves can't find anything so I figured I best get someone who has worked on these things a bunch. Nothing like doing buisness with an old established firm. He also has the electronic equipment.

Yes I can do all those other things and I also know not to screw where I don't belong. :)

i dont trust mazda to change my oil.. ;)

Well, MazdaUSA themselves can't find anything so I figured I best get someone who has worked on these things a bunch. Nothing like doing buisness with an old established firm. He also has the electronic equipment.

Yes I can do all those other things and I also know not to screw where I don't belong. :)

as long as you know the gear you were in you can do the calculations and get teh rpm. just write it on there under the mph.

question- have you had time to decide how to mount the bloody thing now that you can at least look at the space in person?

putitinyabastard :);)

Richard, this pretty much confirms RG thoughts. Can you get someone with a working Aux port valve motor to swap their's with yours, run it on a dyno and narrow it down to the motor? It should be and easy swap. Who's around you in Cali that could help? If you had to replace it, what does it cost?

Just got off of the phone with Richard. The 2 plots were taken back to back. One was with the auxillary port valve hooked up normally and the other with it disconnected. Obviously the run with it disconnected was the lower power run. If you look at this run and compare it to his original run from a few weeks back, it looks very close to it. The curve is basically the same. Richard also said that there are times when the car seems like it want's to get up and go but those are rare. The only thing I can think of right now is that the auxiliary port valves were stuck closed for some reason on the original run. Through driving the car, they are starting to turn more freely. They may not be opening completely though and this would cause alot of turbulence through the ports themselves and explain the high rpm breakup. He said there wasn't any ignition breakup on the dyno pickup. This is all I can think of and is nothing more than a hunch. My suggestion is to take the little auxiliary port motor out and check how freely the sleeves rotate.

OK I've been giving this alot of thought and thinking about the auxiliary ports on the older engines. I have a possible explanation as to how the Renesis auxiliary ports could potentially get stuck closed. This will take some imagination to follow where I am going with this.

First we need to examine what we know of the Renesis engine. Judging by some of the carbon lock issues with even low mileage engines on the auto cars, it is obvious that carbon is a bigger problem with the Renesis than the older rotary engines. This can be attributed to the exhaust port location and how easy it is for carbon to get expelled from the engine. We've been over all of this before. The Renesis exhaust ports have a very strange shape to them. On the top side of the ports is a very gentle slope out of the port to the combustion chamber. This does nothing for flow. It is there to help more gently push any carbon deposits out of the ports so seals don't break. Mazda tried the side exhaust ports in the early 70's and found carbon buildup to ultimately break seals due to accumulation in the exhaust ports. There were other reasons why they didn't use the side ports back then but I won't get into that here. So let's say Richard got an older car that didn't get driven a whole lot. Maybe the amount it did get driven originally wasn't at a high enough rpm to ever open the auxiliary ports. At least not on a regular basis. We have seen from some of the auto's that carbon can get significant enough to completely freeze an engine and it can do this in a fairly short amount of miles.

Remember that the exhaust port shape is such that carbon gets pushed upward out of the ports. It gets pushed somewhere. Notice what lies in the direct path of this carbon. The intake ports! It would be no big deal for some carbon to build up or enter into the primary or even the secondary intake ports as they have air flowing through them fairly often and can easily more this carbon back into the combustion chamber. However this wouldn't be the case with the auxiliary ports. They are nothing more than a rotating sleeve inserted into the intake runner. When these sleeves are closed, there is a small gap in the port itself left between the sleeve and the rotor as it passes over. Any carbon that is being carried by the rotor may fall into this little gap of an area and buildup. If the engine is never revved high enough to open these ports, alot of carbon has time to build up in significant amounts. What happens now if the enigine does reach a high enough rpm to open these ports? Is it possible that some of this carbon will work it's way in between the rotating sleeve and the housing? It happens to the older engines that don't get revved up. Let's say that the sleeves open a few times but over a long period of time such as the rare occasion the driver hits that high of an rpm. In between openings there is plenty of time for mroe carbon to buildup and more of a chance for it to get in between the sleeve and the housing. The more that gets in there, the harder it will get to turn them until ultimately they stick shut completely.

The Renesis actually cycles these sleeves ever 9 or 10 times the engine is started or something like that to keep carbin buildup out of them. However if the mileage on Richard's car was highway mileage, it may be a long time between clearing cycles and these cycles by the car may have actually caused some of the carbon to get between the sleeves and the housings. Remember the ecu will NOT throw a code if your ports are not opening! Only if the don't close. If these ports stick shut, the only thing happening when the ecu cycles these is that it is cycling a current to the auxillary port valve motor even though the motor isn't turning. It will never throw a code if this happens. If these valves were constantly turning such as with the person who always revs it high enough, the carbon could actually work it's way back out of the gap and back into the engine.

If there is in fact a small amount of buildup, this could also lead to that tiny little electric motor working very hard and may serve to weaken it over time. While everything I write here is pure speculation on my part, it seems to me that Richard's car for some reason or another had the auxiliary ports stuck closed. Over time he revved it up higher and the strain on the motor trying to turn these sleeves has slowly cleared it out enough that they are now turning. You can see that on a later dyno. There may still be some buildup though that is not allowing them to open all the way. This would cause alot of turbulence through these ports and could possibly explain the power flutter up top. Airflow past a flat edge isn't terribly smooth, especially when it is cycling such as in an engine. It appears to me that the more Richard drives the car hard, the more cleared out it gets until ultimately the problem may serve to alleviate itself. The immediate fix might be to completely remove the entire intake manifold assembly and physically clean out the runnes and valves. Just removing the motor and seeing how well the valves turn is a good way to see if this is actually happening or not.

I anxiously await what Dave (guitarjunkie) finds out this weekend. That's my hypothesis though. That means, drive your cars like they were meant to be driven!

He said there wasn't any ignition breakup on the dyno pickup. .


he hehe you headed me off at teh pass- i was about to suggest pickup problems

Now that's the RotaryGod we all remember and love, LONG WINDED. :rolleyes:
I used to have Professors who I think graded on how many pages there were in you work. RG would get good grades in those classes. I was just tempted to put in some extra blank pages. You know, a blank between each topic or any other excuse. ;)

Here's what we know about the car itself. It was built late 03. It probably sat on the lot and was moved around time to time. It was in NJ so it saw weather. It shows that all the recalls were done, so it got moved to the shop and back. I bought the car and it was trucked here. When I got it off the truck it had a total of 22 miles on it. It now has 2500.

So we know it sat for about 20 months never gatting driven or even warmed up. It got driven onto the boat, off to the dock. Then sat until it was driven onto a truck, then off. Run around the car lot a few times. Put on the truck out here, then off at the hub and then onto the local truck.

Probably never had a full warm up it's whole life until I got it. It may have been flooded by one of those moving it, but it doesn't show in the history. Therefore I don't think it had the chance to build up carbon. It did have plenty of time to oxidize the aluminum. Since no fuel was in there we can't blame gumming from that. I don't know the design so I can't guess on anything mechanical screwing up.

Bottom line is we all agree that this is the place to look. We also agree there is something wrong. "We" does not include Mazda. It doesn't exclude other areas that might wind up being the problem.

Is there any way to stimulate the motors to see if they are actuating?

I believe that is guitarjunkie is going there to do, remove it and see if it is sticking.

looking at that dyno it seems like the vdi and port actuators are working.
power is probably right in the area it should be with the afr's like that. remember snoochies car?

anyone with an rx8 wanna let me borrow a maf sensor? it seems like it's miscalibrated or something. running way the hell too rich up top.

and i have a spare lower manifold, but it's ported. i don't know if you wanna even try it--since it'd throw off the airflow for the kit.

i'll just come down friday and see what the story is...figure out a gameplan from there.

Here's what we know about the car itself. It was built late 03. It probably sat on the lot and was moved around time to time. It was in NJ so it saw weather. It shows that all the recalls were done, so it got moved to the shop and back. I bought the car and it was trucked here. When I got it off the truck it had a total of 22 miles on it. It now has 2500.

So we know it sat for about 20 months never gatting driven or even warmed up. It got driven onto the boat, off to the dock. Then sat until it was driven onto a truck, then off. Run around the car lot a few times. Put on the truck out here, then off at the hub and then onto the local truck.

Probably never had a full warm up it's whole life until I got it. It may have been flooded by one of those moving it, but it doesn't show in the history. Therefore I don't think it had the chance to build up carbon. It did have plenty of time to oxidize the aluminum. Since no fuel was in there we can't blame gumming from that. I don't know the design so I can't guess on anything mechanical screwing up.

Bottom line is we all agree that this is the place to look. We also agree there is something wrong. "We" does not include Mazda. It doesn't exclude other areas that might wind up being the problem.

OK so much for all my brainstorming but it sounded good.

hey guys i was following this thread a while back and lost track after a while, but now i have lost track and don't have the time to scrool thru all of the pages, so what the update on the SuperCharger, and release of specs or anything of that nature.

A working model maby :)

That's what I was saying..... Look at that AF ratio!

Pig Rich. Damn i forgot to get a scan of my Dyno at work today.

Mine drops down to about 13.8/13.9 then climbs to 14.0

It seems mine gets leaner as I go faster. That may eaplain why the pipes get clean after I drive it a little hard.

At the track the pipes are white!

You can always drop me a line. I only use my car on the weekends, and only if I have time.

I'm 74 miles from you.

That's what I was saying..... Look at that AF ratio!

Pig Rich. Damn i forgot to get a scan of my Dyno at work today.

Mine drops down to about 13.8/13.9 then climbs to 14.0

It seems mine gets leaner as I go faster. That may eaplain why the pipes get clean after I drive it a little hard.

At the track the pipes are white!

You can always drop me a line. I only use my car on the weekends, and only if I have time.

I'm 74 miles from you.

That looks way to lean. Mine doesn't look much different then FanMans A/F and that ran on the same dyno as mine.

74 Mi in what direction?

edit: Just looked it up and his is leaner then mine by about a point and he made 180hp. I'm going to go over to the dyno shop tomorrow and see if they can print out a overlay of his and mine. I think they still have his in memory.

hey razz, if you can make it tomorrow, can we steal your maf sensor for a run or two and see what it does?

or we cna try fred's idea of covering part of the inlet up to try to screw with the readings there.

I've got a spare maf, i just pulled it out of my car 2 days ago. PM if interested.

Is there any way to stimulate the motors to see if they are actuating?


get your mind out of the gutter for once guy :D

^^ That was a perfectly legit Question :p

i'm interested if you can get it to richard's shop by tomorrow...

hey, we could always go to radio shack and get resistors--hit it up ultra ghetto style :p

Fanmans car is just down the street or at least it was. Last time I saw it was apart. The MAF was on the floor. I'll go by and see what's happening with it and if it's there I'll try to get in touch with him to see if we can use it.

That would be ideal as we have his dyno sheet from the same dyno. Said dyno is also on the same street.

Is there any reason why we can't just buy a new sensor?

Fanmans car is still here. I just don't know if I can get hold of him in Europe. I'm going to try his PM but I doubt he is following the forum. Probably drinking and eating to excess over there. Well if he's in Italy or France that is. Maybe Spain also. :D

I wouldn't see why the dealer parts dept couldn't sell you one, or i've heard that we share them with other model cars also.

Fanmans car is just down the street or at least it was. Last time I saw it was apart. The MAF was on the floor. I'll go by and see what's happening with it and if it's there I'll try to get in touch with him to see if we can use it.

That would be ideal as we have his dyno sheet from the same dyno. Said dyno is also on the same street.

Is there any reason why we can't just buy a new sensor?

Fanmans car is just down the street or at least it was. Last time I saw it was apart. The MAF was on the floor. I'll go by and see what's happening with it and if it's there I'll try to get in touch with him to see if we can use it.

That would be ideal as we have his dyno sheet from the same dyno. Said dyno is also on the same street.

Is there any reason why we can't just buy a new sensor?


yea, because i wanna see if it'll actually work before you spend any money... next best thing: steal it :D

i'll see if maybe we can steal snoochies sensor...hell, maybe we can take his car and put it on the dyno too.

i have my old maf if anyone cares!!!

but you're in arizona though, right?

crap.
i can't load the canscan stuff on my laptop because i don't have whatever .net framework i need....
can you get ahold of a laptop?

Download it at microsoft

yep the .net is easy to get.

I have Hymees new one, including the software and adapters. I've not used it yet as I don't have a laptop. I could put it into the shop computer just to read the directions.
Would this one solve your problem? Your laptop my CanScan.
Also remember Hymee's was built just for the Rx8. In fact it comes on screen with gauges identical to the 8's.

i don't know if i have enough room on the hard drive..that thing is TEENY-TINY. i only use it for talking to ems's and i have all the manuals on it for when i do mobile jobs.

Ok, we can steal my partners wife's laptop. I'll ask if we can get that tomorrow.
Get back to you when I know.

good--because i don't make the system requirements for the .net thing...i'd need IE 5.01 or something.

problem with that is i don't know how to download it... you can download the setup, but it kinda downloads the actual program as it's installing. my laptop isn't online and doesn't have ethernet--or whatever, SO
i'd have to go buy the network card, then download everything.

thank god we can steal the other laptop :D

me = teh noob

go get a jump drive plug it into your desktop. download the zipped .net folder on that. then plug the jump drive into the laptop and o;pen the zip folder and install the .net onto the l;aptop.

OK got a tenitive use of a laptop. But I never count on things without actually looking in the womans eye myself. You can't count on how much she is going to be in love with her husband when they wake up in the morning.

go get a jump drive plug it into your desktop. download the zipped .net folder on that. then plug the jump drive into the laptop and o;pen the zip folder and install the .net onto the l;aptop.


i toasted a cd for that. the problem is getting internet exploder 5+ onto the laptop. if someone's paying for the network card, i'll do it. lol

and get a jump drive.... i'm poor. the trick is to not have to spend money on it.

OK got a tenitive use of a laptop. But I never count on things without actually looking in the womans eye myself. You can't count on how much she is going to be in love with her husband when they wake up in the morning.


^^^^ROFLMAO...ain't that the truth! ;)

BTW has anyone answered about the lack of Email notices from the forum?

Yeah - that is why I am just now catching up on 10 pages of posts :(

Sorry for missing the fun.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Richard,

Is this a possible theory why the AFS are rich...

When you are at WOT, the ECU is in "closed loop". Who knows if it reading the MAF, or is just basing it's fuelling of RPM and TPS? I would think MAF would be read, it is a sophisticated PCM. But none of us yet know it's exact workings. That is another project.

Anyway, if the computer saw it was doing X RPM at WOT, and was programmed to give a certain does of fuel, because a certain airflow was "known" at the RPM... And 2 of the ports where stuck closed, so less than that normal amount of air went in, then it would be 2 rich.

You could have a double edged sword. Not enough air for the RPM, and too much fuel for that air flow anyway.

Something to think about.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Nice to have you back Hymee. We shall know more tomorrow. The fact that it got better leads me to believe that they are sticking. If thats the case then it would go rich like you say.
Hey BTW I'm trying to put your canscan in but my computer spits it back out. It doesn't like the flavor. Must be that Oz taste. ;) I't's probably my comp as it has been shitty for months. Wouln't let me put in the photo scaner either. It hates me.

Tomorrow we will try and put it into Dana's wife's laptop so gaitar junkie can do is thing. Hope this nightmare is over then. Then I can start putting the SC in and start the electronic troubles all over again.


See what I mean? The world production would be better if they let me have a Weber and a distributor. Think all the man hours and runing around this has taken. All the people who have burned up brain cells trying to help. The world would be a better place to live. I would be easier to live with. :rolleyes:

alright, so all i really need to bring tomorrow is myself then?

oh yea, shoot me some directions too--or give me a call when you wake up. i've gotta make the rounds tomorrow, so the earlier, the better.

nm, i got the address and mapquested it.

110 miles! you're gonna have to buy me a happy meal for that drive! and on a friday too... hey, at least the beater has a/c. :D

Hey BTW I'm trying to put your canscan in but my computer spits it back out. It doesn't like the flavor. Must be that Oz taste. ;) I't's probably my comp as it has been shitty for months. Wouln't let me put in the photo scaner either. It hates me.

Richard,

Email us some information about the problems you're having to support@hymee.com... and we'll try and sort it out. We haven't had a failed install reported yet, so I'm interested to know what the problems are you're having.

Cheers

sco

When you are at WOT, the ECU is in "closed loop"
Don't you mean "open loop", as in "right" is "the other left"? :p Those plastic bag fumes must have got you you eh? ;)

i toasted a cd for that. the problem is getting internet exploder 5+ onto the laptop. if someone's paying for the network card, i'll do it. lol

and get a jump drive.... i'm poor. the trick is to not have to spend money on it.


dudethey're cheap i got my 256k one for less then 50 bucks and its hella useful for moving stuff back and for to the laptop/pc

256k wow that's a big one :)

sorry thats 256mb and actually its 512mb. really they are cheap and worth it for just these situations.

M Flash
89 Octane
Notice my A/F gets leaner as RPM rises
2003 build

Sorry I've been really busy at work. Almost took the day off. Maybe next time I can help you out. I'm in Orange County, that's South of you. I'm only about 50 mi. from Fanman in Glendale.

Weekends are best for me.

The way I look at it, if she ain't at 14.5 to one then I'm ok right? Also, if she's lean it means theoretically speaking I can get a fuel manage system to richen the system to get more power.

After all isn't that the problem with the RX8? It runs pig rich.

Maybe I should dyno it again with my intake mod to see how much richer it is.

You are looking way lean, dangerous lean. I don't like anything over 12.5 under full power. Peak torque is the most likely to cause detonation as that is best filling. Most pressure.

What do you mean by full power?

Full throttle?
Max RPM?

dudethey're cheap i got my 256k one for less then 50 bucks and its hella useful for moving stuff back and for to the laptop/pc


again thanks, but i can just toast a cd. the problem is lack of money and no way to get the laptop on the internet...unless i wanna pay for a copy of internet exploder to get mailed out to me.


so anyway, 6pi and vdi are actuating randomly. i popped the vdi open and shoved somethign in there to keep it open and we did some runs on the street--consistant. ok, cool
--secondaries begin to open as soon as vacuum is appliesd, and fully open by about 7" or so. smooth as glass--not sticking at all.
--vdi was the same story, only fully open at around 10" according to the mightyvac.
--couldn't test the aux ports today, but i think they're fine because when they do open, it's a smooth transition.

alrighty then...so ruling out mechanical problems, we have to move on to the control system, which we couldn't do because me=teh noob and i couldn't figure out how to make that laptop's serial port work.

now that we've partially narrowed it down, we're left with:
1)computer
2)inputs that the computer is getting
3)actuators/solonoids not getting the outputs fromt he computer (wiring harness problem)
4)maybe the solonoid and 6pi motor are going out which i very highly doubt....most of the time they either both work or both don't...but that's most of the time.

during one test run, i heard some MAJOR popcorn!!! how in the hell do you detonate a bone-stock n/a? especially one running that rich? the lack of power may possibly be the computer pulling out timing due to the knock sensor picking it up...if i hadn't heard it i swear i wouldn't have believed it, but anyone who's detonated a rotary to the point you can hear it will know what i'm talking about. that drop in the pit of your stomach... lol

in the closest thing i have to a "professional" opinion, mazda needs to fix this shit under warranty!

i'll be passing right by the shop again tomorrow, so i'll bring my laptop and see if i can manipulate it to work. if we have the datalogging ability, i'll see what kind of info i can get from the computer.

new engine time?
mayeb they turned off their machine midway thru flashing the ECU...woops

Hey BTW I'm trying to put your canscan in but my computer spits it back out.

There - that is the problem. You are supposed to be installing sCANalyser yousillyoldbastard. Not that other one :p

Cheers,
Hymee.

Don't you mean "open loop", as in "right" is "the other left"? :p Those plastic bag fumes must have got you you eh? ;)

Yep. You know what I ment. I went for a 200km drive today to try and to as those fumes away. Maybe by the time I get to Goulburn it will be all good.

Cheers,
Hymee.

gj28,

You can download a full version of IE6 to burn onto a CD by following these instructions:
http://www.compu-docs.com/ieadmininstall.htm

The .NET Framework is included as part of the sCANalyser installer on the CD - it will be installed automatically if it's not already on the computer

HTH

sco

So what was different on the popcorn test run than the other runs that could have made it detonate?

oh for the love of pete i knew i should've kept up with this thread..141 pages...ahhhh so much to read :(:(:(

gj28,

You can download a full version of IE6 to burn onto a CD by following these instructions:
http://www.compu-docs.com/ieadmininstall.htm

The .NET Framework is included as part of the sCANalyser installer on the CD - it will be installed automatically if it's not already on the computer

HTH

sco


so i need that for the scanalyser too? not just the canscan?

*edit*
i just checked that out and all it does is download a setup program, then i think it downloads as it installs...
i get paid on tuesday...maybe i'll go buy that whatchacallit thingy for the laptop to get that online. i don't think anyone understands how much i dispise computers...i typw like 45 words a minute, but that doesn't mean i like it!!

There - that is the problem. You are supposed to be installing sCANalyser yousillyoldbastard. Not that other one :p

Cheers,
Hymee.

You know what I ment, yasmartassbastard. :p

i'm running late, but i should be able to leave in like 10 minutes.

You know what I ment, yasmartassbastard. :p

Hehehe. If you ever write a book called "Smart Arses I have Known - by Richard A Paul", please ensure I am one of the first entries. :eek: :confused: ;) :rolleyes:

Cheers,
Hymee.

Richard,

There is an idea on the thread below used to remove carbon deposits...

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=64757&page=1&pp=15

Perhaps it might be of a little help.

Cheers,
Hymee.

so i need that for the scanalyser too? not just the canscan?

*edit*
i just checked that out and all it does is download a setup program, then i think it downloads as it installs...
i get paid on tuesday...maybe i'll go buy that whatchacallit thingy for the laptop to get that online. i don't think anyone understands how much i dispise computers...i typw like 45 words a minute, but that doesn't mean i like it!!
Can't really help you with CanScan, sorry -- not my product. Although, I believe the latest CanScan software is using .NET.

sCANalyser install will automatically install .NET. .NET needs IE5.01 or above. The link I provided above, provided you follow the steps exactly, will run the IE6 setup and download a copy of the full setup onto your machine. You can then burn that full setup onto a CD to put onto your laptop. This will avoid you needing to buy a network card.

It is really funny to me to read about nobody having a computer good enough or up to date enough while I sit here in Iraq, of all places, with 5 computers within arms reach haha, I wish I could help!

Richard,

There is an idea on the thread below used to remove carbon deposits...

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=64757&page=1&pp=15

Perhaps it might be of a little help.

Cheers,
Hymee.


LoL...the original link came from this thread...reminds me of someone saying the greatest part about starting a rumour is when it actually comes back to its source.

No, I think RAP's problems are more fundamendal than that...

And Richard. I'm with you on 'give me a distributor and a Weber' -- that's my vintage, too ;) ...oh, and a stethascope...and a good sniff of the exhaust fumes...(falls asleep :D )

Sco, Hymee, we got the thing loaded but it will not work live. It will refresh and give you data but no live feed. It's running on Windows 98, is that a problem?
Give me a call on my cell when you get this. That is if it's still today over here on the top.

I know why, you need to change the settings of the serial port...this is how I fixed the problem way back right after I received the unit during the inital phase of beta testing:

right click on 'my computer' and enter the 'Device Manager', now go and expand the 'Ports' and right click on the serial device for the sCANalyser and click 'properties', a window will pop up and click on the tab labeled 'port settings' and change the 'Flow Control' drop down menu to the 'hardware' setting, then click 'ok'. You may now need to restart the computer depending on your system. Now it should work. This applys to serial only use and usb to serial converter use (like me).

It is really funny to me to read about nobody having a computer good enough or up to date enough while I sit here in Iraq, of all places, with 5 computers within arms reach haha, I wish I could help!

hahahah that is pretty funny :D

RAP,

How did you go with TM's suggestions?

Cheers,
Hymee.

RAP,

How did you go with TM's suggestions?

Cheers,
Hymee.


Wish I had that info on Friday. Thanks TM. GJ is going to be calling today as he is not far from here but I don't know if I can get "The Computer" back from Dana's wife. If I can put it together we could do it today. If not I'll do it tomorrow by myself.

I've decided to just take it back to Mazda and leave it there until they fix it. Why the hell am I and everyone else having to fight this when they should be doing it. I've spent enough time and money trying to fix their fuck up. :(

Everyone now go and yell out the window "I'm not going to take it anymore" :mad:

Everyone now go and yell out the window "I'm not going to take it anymore" :mad:

It is 5:15am in the morning, so I best not do that just yet. So I will think it for you ;)

Cheers,
Hymee.

richard-- YOU were supposed to call ME! i didn't hear from you, so i just went home.

anyhoo, yesterday reaffirmated my earlier prognosis...mazda's fuckup, mazda is responsible.

Just lemon law it.

You've got proof that it's not acting as it should. Give Mazda their legally-allowed 3 attempts to fix the problem and/or 30 days, and if they can't fix it, begin lemon law filing. From what I've seen from owners on the Mazda6Club forum that have had irreperable issues, Mazda's usually pretty quick about settling them.

if i could see every parameter available, AND know what the computer is supposed to do, under what conditions it is supposed to do it, and how it's supposed ot be done, i'm sure i could figure it out.

i don't have access to that information, but the dealer does...so why the hell can't THEY figure it out? tell the dealer to let me play with their toys and i bet i can get enough info datalogged to figure out what the story is. but yea.....that'll happen :p

Not, how was I suppossed to know when you were done partying? :rolleyes:
Anyway, as you say why the hell are we doing all the work handicaped without all the tools and info. :confused: Mazda has to do it. I'll talk to them tomorrow.

But just so you know DANA broke the tab today. Took the shifter out to try a new idea and inspect the existing parts for wear. But Dana insisted on doing it himself without me. Just want to tell everyone like I told him I would. :D

i told you it was a birthday party--not a bachelor rager...you could have called me anytime.

whole lotta good that does us now though... oh well, it was fun hangin' with you. :D

If it's carbon build up would a bottle of Techron help clean it out?

Well RAP, I think there's a clear consensus that it's Mazda's problem, so get Mazda to fix it...and free your time to get back to Supercharger development

That's the plan, I put as good an effort as they might expect. :( I'm trying to get hold iof them right now.

and tell them i said so! you go: dave said do that shit!...bitch...grrr
and then smack the service writer on the butt and say thanks for the effort buddy.

Richard, check the dyno chart on this thread...

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=64768

Gomez.

that's it... porting has now doubled in price, and will include a free ems upgrade until someone figures out what's up :D

I already saw that and I don't know how much smoothing they had on the results. But it must be alot as there is not the typical sharp dips from the inlet tract activation. The thing is on mine is that it isn't consistant. On the last dyno day we got 145 on the first run. This is what I notice on the street, I can feel that sometimes it runs others not.

I'm fuckin sick of it. I really like the car otherwise. That is supprising from someone as jaded as me. Mazda is it's own worst enemy.

hey, at least you make peak horsepower by 6000 rpm :D

Richard, check the dyno chart on this thread...
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=64768


I was actually concerned about the smoothness of the curves (as usual :rolleyes: )
Are the dips actually worse than what my run shows?

it's not the big dips, but hte small variances in hp--the thing that makes it look all squiggly.

there is a smoothing factor that averages those out to make your curve smooth.

Mazda is it's own worst enemy.

Since they are significantly "in bed with" Ford Motor, that should not be any shock.

One technical point I can offer is that the EEC uses the MAF as the "god sensor", EVERYTING depends on the MAF. Other sensors allow the EEC to fine-tune, but at WOT the MAF is THE sensor.

At WOT the EEC uses only the MAF to calculate load. It completely ignores the HEGOs. So, if the MAF is off or the signal is not "true", you will not get to 100% load in the EEC, and eventhough you have squashed the go-pedal fully, the EEC will not act as though you have. It "knows" the VE of the engine at any given TP% and RPM, the EEC compares that to actual MAF to calculate load. As you can see, if you do not get to 100% load, you will not get to WOT enrichment, you will knock, it will pull spark, and every 1* of advance is good for 3-4 RWHP, you can get hurt pretty fast above 6500 RPM by losing spark advance.


Tell that writer you have a present for him, and that you'd like him to bendo over as you deposit that 8 right were it belongs.

I already told the service writer what to do. Second time I met him.
That's why I'm at MazdaUSA. If I'm my normal nice self there and burn that bridge where will I go? FoMoCo?

Reminds me of the time I got stopped in my Testarossa up on the 5. I wasn't in the best of moods anyway, so when the cop asked "why are you driving a Ferrari and me a truck" Well, I told him why, "because I have a real job and you don't". Guess you know how that worked out. I got to sit in the Magic Mountain jail for 4 hours. :eek:

On the other note, if what you are saying is true then drawing throgh the MAF will cause all sorts of problems if there is not enough headroom in the original map. Lets say that originally they figured the 8 will never flow over 600 CFM so they only program to 650. If I exceed that it instantly thinks the sensor is crazy and goes to limp home. Nice. :(

RP,

It would be GREAT if the EEC went into "limp home", but it's worse! It just guesses! When you peg the MAF, the EEC simply uses 5.0V, or 100% load. You might very well be at 125% load, but as far as the EEC knows, you are only at 100% because that's all it "knows".

You mention drawing through, and I do sincerly hope that is your plan, because I know of ZERO GOOD blow-thru automotive applications. When you pressurize the inlet air is REALLY screws up the MAF, one part is that it is under pressure, the other is the turbulance in the inlet stream that was not engineered into the transfer function at the factory. So, a suck-thru is REALLY the only GOOD way to go.

Also, the MAF may, or may not, have a linear (or even close to linear) transfer function. It is common for MAFs to flow 70% thru 4.0-4.2V, and the remaining 30% or so using the last 1.0-0.8Vdc of range. With all your test equipment, it would be EASY to for you to map flow vs Voltage to get a very good idea of the transfer function. After all, that's all a TF is, Flow vs Volts.

That's all good except it will run out of volts before it reaches the range where I need to run. If it were a perfect world with a draw throgh system it would continue to function with the extra air. How can that be changed. Never mind I already know, ask Mazda.
But if as you say it reaches the max fuel supply and just stays there when extra air goes in I can live with that. If it fuels the flow up to wher the manifold goes positive then I just add fuel for the extra mass which I can calculate.
That is what I have in mind. I want to leave the stock set up alone and add fuel via aux nozzles before the blower based on manifold pressure. Said aux nozzles only feeding for the extra air. All air below that level is handled by he stock system.

Actually, you can change MAFs to get the flow range you need. The only caveat is that you also need access to the EEC to program in the new transfer function. This is NOT difficult, but you do need to know how to access the EEC tables.

When you program it this way, the stock system can handle the extra flow as long as the injectors will accomodate it. The EEC, as I said before, know the THEORETICAL VE, and with good MAF data (even at 125% of "theoretical flow") the EEC will properly calculate load. That means that EVERYTHING the EEC controls will be exactly correct for loads over 100%. Best of every world.

The other way to deal with the additional flow without getting into the EEC is with an FMU. Given the electronic limitations of this project, this may be the most elegant method available.

Does anyone KNOW what ECU model is in the 8?

If it's an "M", there is support for it, and we can open pandora's box on the programming.

I can't recall ever hearing anyone on the forum mentioning that they knew this. How can we find it? Could we take one apart and be able to tell?
I can try and ask Mazda when I'm out there next time. That will be the week of the 11th. I really doubt they will share much with us. :( They just don't want the liability of someone screwing with it.

From old enquiries, this is all we have on the ECU chip....

It is an Hitachi,
the Hitachi SuperH processor by "Renesas" (the combined chip divisions of Hitachi and Mitsubishi)

High-performance single-chip RISC with SH-2E core
52 MIPS/40 MHz/3.3 V
High-speed multiplication/accumulation operations
Built-in 32-bit multiplier
Built-in single-precision floating-point operation unit
Built-in large capacity flash memory with a single power supply and large capacity RAM
Write and erase operations available with the single power supply 512 kB Flash ROM/32 kB RAM
Timer: ATU-II (a maximum of 65 input and output process) Compare-match timer 2 ch
A/D: 10 bit x 32 ch
Serial: 5 ch DMAC: 4 ch
HCAN: 2 ch (1 ch is shared with a serial interface)
Package QFP-256

Other than that, we know nothing! :rolleyes:

S

hey, i used a super h compressor on a hitachi turbo on my old fc :D

Small point of interest: the Sega Saturn used dual Hitachi SuperH processors for its CPU.

Peace
policy

Richard, your idea to run an ecu as purely an additional injector controller should work just fine. Megasquirt could be a viable alternative for this. Get the supercharger mounted in the car and try one. They are $140 for the kit or $325 already assembled. The good news is that since it uses an onboard map sensor, you can dial in different boost level maps so changin boost would be just a change of pulley for the consumer which would require no additional tuning on their part.

We agree that the extra fuel can be controled OK. The thing we don't know is what the stock system is going to do when all that extra air is sensed by the MAF. For a small amount it will probably fuel it because there is some headroom in the program. When it exceeds that map what will it do? Shut down thinking there is a sensor failure?
Something needs to be done to tell it to just shut up and act like it was still within it limits. Something might be done by using manifold pressure to stall the stock system at that pount.

Stealth, all that is great but does it mean we can get to modify it with an available tool?

Supposedly the ecu doesn't care what the maf readings are so long as the O2 readings are fine. The ecu always readjusts the maps because it senses some weird O2 readings. If you add fuel to keep them inline with where they should be, the car shouldn't care.

Fred we are talking back and forth on two threads. Anyway this is the road we shall go down. MazdaUSA gets the car next week and hopefully it will come back OK. I'm again starting to test some new blades. I hope they are machined by the time the car gets back. That doesn't mean one will be together just maybe close to getting on the test bench. I can use a mock up for the fab work.

Did you stumble across a more efficient blade design?

Supposedly the ecu doesn't care what the maf readings are so long as the O2 readings are fine. The ecu always readjusts the maps because it senses some weird O2 readings. If you add fuel to keep them inline with where they should be, the car shouldn't care.

Unless Mazda has done something VERY unique with the 8's ECU/EEC, they IGNORE the HEGO(s) at WOT (over about 70%-80% load/throttle), and rely SOLELY on the MAF sensor signal and command AFR look-up tables.

How much "headroom" does the stock MAF have, or do we not know?

Did you stumble across a more efficient blade design?


You don't "stumble" across blade designs. :p
Without the experiance and high powered computer programs of the big engine manufactures we have to just thrash out a design by hand and then test it. Right now we don't have the fixtures to do single stage testing so we build a whole comp section. If I were starting over and had the time it would be nice to study each blade by itself then in a cascade. Maybe down the road we can set up and do tests that way. :cool:

There has to be a limit on the airflow through the MAF as there is a limit to the nozzle capacity. If that were the limit It would be great because there is enough nozzle in there for over 300hp.

If I missed a post talking about an o2 simulator then I'm sorry for this post.

Whats to keep the ECU from trying to hit the target air/fuel even if there is a seperate independent injector. The stock computer could compensate for the increased rich mixture with the stock injectors.

One more question if you dont mind.

Are you intending on leaving timing stock and just running a conservative boost level or are you going to make a timing control unit.

Jon
PTP Motorsports

For sure I'd like to do a min of spark retard based on man press. It will be very basic and any controler could do it. It is just that we need to not get intwined with the stock priograms. I don't think the timing is going to be that hard. If it comes down to it there are boost retards for regular ignition systems that if multiplied could be used here without the stock ECU knowing it.

Back to the nozzle question, does the stock unit mod the mix even in open loop by way of the O2 sensors. Or does it just follow a map based on speed and throttle?

The problem with using a simple knock retard unit is that it needs to retard both leading and trailing independently on different channels. This can't be done with something like an MSD 6BTM. A J&S knock sensor would do it but this is only after it hears knock. I don't like that idea.

I'm trying to find some documentation to back it up but can't as of the moment but, as ModMech said, it looks at the MAF and then will reference a A/F table according to that voltage. It ignores the O2's until it goes back into closed-loop. Look at it this way if the PCM was to look at O2's during open-loop everyone that has installed a canzoomer would just be adding fuel that the fuel trims would compensate for and turnaround and subtract because it would see the rich mixture that the O2 would be reporting. That is why they can't start adding fuel until higher RPM's.

As far as headroom for the MAF if I get a chance tom. at work I'll hook the WDS to see how high the voltage gets.

I was just reading back on ModMechs comment, and one thing to add about load is the PCM will also look at TP. It will also look at the IAT for almost redundant info.

For sure I'd like to do a min of spark retard based on man press. It will be very basic and any controler could do it. It is just that we need to not get intwined with the stock priograms. I don't think the timing is going to be that hard. If it comes down to it there are boost retards for regular ignition systems that if multiplied could be used here without the stock ECU knowing it.

Back to the nozzle question, does the stock unit mod the mix even in open loop by way of the O2 sensors. Or does it just follow a map based on speed and throttle?


I was under the assumption that the ecu always took the air/fuel mixture reading and adjusted to compensate when the engine was warm except at a certain load and rpm. I would not worry about being able to compensate for full throttle high rpms I think the major issue is in the lower rpms and not quite full throttle. Or maybe just rpm dependent. I have noticed that many people are having problems in the midrange rpms and maybe thats why greddy's coolant temp switch only operates between 1200rpm-4900rpms. And maybe thats the problem the SSR turbo kit has at the low rpms with pinging. But I am far from being an RX8 expert especially on the factory system.

Jon
PTP Motorsports
512-834-8771
Jon@ptpmotorsports.com

You are right but that certain load and rpm you talk about is when it goes into open loop that is why you see it go pi rich there otherwise it constantly monitors the O2 sensors for the most effiencient A/F ratio. As far as the low rpm pinging with the SSR kit its obviously to lean which would make since because they said thats with the ball bearing kit and it would reach maxium boost at a lower RPM.

I wish I could look at the pid data on a turbo car to see how the MAF, and O2's react. They are the key toall this mess.

One more thing, didn't I read on here somewhere that some greddy or canzoomer owners had to reset kam every so often. (which would reset your fuel trim tables) what was the deal with that.

find a turbo car and get a scanalyser on it. you can read the pids then

well I can just use the WDS but I need the turbo car first.
What units of measurements does the scanalyser use for the O2 sensor.

oh right- i saw you mention using the wds in before but forgot

Wideband O2 data in sCANalyser comes out as a current reading, lambda or AFR (by multiplying lambda by stoich)
There is also a second O2 sensor which is a traditional sensor and you get the voltage readings from that.

Any news from the front lines? =)

The car is "supposed" to go back to Mazda this week to try to narrow down what the heck is wrong with it. Even if it does go in the shop this week, who knows if it will be back this week or next and if they have actually fixed the problem or not. Once they do, he will start installation mockup.

Hey, I'm still waiting.

Those that are patient will reap the rewards of the RP Supercharger.

well if it goes to irvine this week maybe they will do the recall work on his car while they have it:D

After getting to work today: 40037 miles. :D It's tiiiiiiiimmmmme

something that i seem to have stumbled upon is that in open-loop the ecu is still looking at a/f ratio's to determin the cat temp (which is just a series of tables relating maf and a/f to expected cat temps) and can drastically richen the mixture if the temp calc is too high - i don't believe this would be a large problem for the FI cars since the a/f ratio is low eventhough the maf was very high, as the cat temp seems to be more effected by a/f ratio (at least from the curves i found from delphi)

Damn it! Scotti got his final beam up today. Now I'll never get those see through stators. :( ;)

Was that a shameless self-bump? :p

Was that a shameless self-bump? :p


Studying your heading for a moment I am honestly honored to get this reaction from you. You've been waiting for so long for FI that you've taken it as a screen name. Well done. :) Then you have an economy of posts for so long of a member.

So for you to post here just because of an ongoing inside joke is nice. :D I assume you have been reading the thread and are aware of the joke.

I'm not being a smart ass here I mean it. Your welcome on our thread. :cool:
We only like politicly correct people. ;) That is our style PC. If you need that qualified ask RotaryGod, he types and speaks well. :rolleyes:

You hate me! :(


We only like politicly correct people. ;) That is our style PC. If you need that qualified ask RotaryGod, he types and speaks well. :rolleyes:

You hate me! :(

Not so. The only person I hate is my second ex wife. :eek:

Just to show how nice I am, I still love my first ex wife. Should I ever meet her, I will always love my third ex wife. :rolleyes:

im guessing no news on the car?????

beers

We only like politicly correct people. ;) That is our style PC.

Aah! That explains why we find you lurking around the Aussie threads :p

im guessing no news on the car?????

beers

Are ya thinkin that the second person I'm going to hate is Mazda? :confused: :(

I've been a member for about 8 months now, way before FI :o

Are ya thinkin that the second person I'm going to hate is Mazda? :confused: :(

hope not,

no car for you no fi for me, its the circle of life simba.

ok maybe i am being a bit selfish, but at least i am patient.

beers

Should I ever meet her, I will always love my third ex wife. :rolleyes:

I think this is why he lurks in the Aussie forum :D

Andrew

So . . . any news on the car, its been pretty quiet here lately!

did richard ever gett eh scanalyser hooked up for his car? he should do a run or 2 and log the MAF with that. i bet if he does he'll see the ports opening just fine.

whoa, two days and no post?????

Richard get your car on the scanalyzer and data log a run through the gears. OK the first couple of gears so we don't see you on the news. Look at the airflow readings from the maf. It should match a dyno chart printout in terms of its shape. Although it won't give you a power figure, you will be able to tell from the shape of this if anything is opening or not on the street. If has been found that the RX-8 does in fact NOT like dynos. It somehow does act up and pull power out. This may be by limiting the throttle electronically or it may just sometimes not open certain valves. It apparently goes very rich on the dyno. Racing Beat has said that the car runs about 5% too rich from the factory. Dyno charts that I've seen do support the rich part of that but they are always far worse than 5% too rich. Luis Shiavo spent a few hours tuning his a/f ratio on a dyno with his Greddy turbo kit to read something like 12.7:1 afr. It was around there somewhere. It looked good on the dyno but when he drove it, it sucked! He went back to the stock maps which looked like crap and the dyno and it drove good. Look to see what yours is doing in the real world. If Mazda can't find anything wrong with your car but the dyno says otherwise, maybe the problem isn't with the car but rather the damn over protective ecu when on a dyno. The real world is where everything counts anyways.

On a side note, we will be starting an RX-8 this work for the first time under control of a Megasquirt. The first attempt will be fuel only to see how the stock ecu behaves but we are making progress. Now just get your supercharger mounting worked out!

It's doing what the dyno says, you can feel the dip after 62/6500. It doesn't want to clime to redline like others I have driven. :(
I have a scanlizer or whatever Hymee calls it. Just the last time I tried it we didn't have a laptop that worked. Dana just got a brand new one, just hasn't been delivered yet. I should be able to do this week.

I agree that the engine as is will be allright with the existing comp. Those blow ups were pretty dramatic. I saw the rotors out of the engine that blew and RB took apart, they look nothing like that. Pistons or rotors, abnormal combustion is violent. I have somewhere a pin from my own small block that is just ever so bent. I'm talking an aftermarket super pin here. Looking at that part and thinking of it bending you get the picture.

let's hook a cable up to the throttle plate and see what it does ;)

Richard how bout an update for the s2ki.com guys they are getting restless.

I think Mazda has had plenty of chances to fix your 8. :mad: Its time to start talking to them about the lemon law or better yet have your lawyer talk to Mazda. That should get them off of their rear end and do something about the problem. :D

I am sure some on here on the board is a lawyer and is willing to donate some of there time to get this project rolling again.

I just read in another thread that someone was having problems after 6000 rpms because of burnt coils. Have they been checked already?

hi richard,

i am wondering if you have the mecanical part of the kit together already.
i would be interested in setting it up over here....
i already have a ecu solution that would work for me

There are no parts available for sale now.
I am interested in your ECU solution though. It is my intent to add a nozzle to the inlet of the SC for the excess air. Do you have any info on your unit?

It is targeted for the end of the month to have the SC installed in my car. No answer to the Fuel problem yet. Stand alon units are way to high priced to be sold with the kit, it raises the price out of the market.

Hope is for a system ala RotaryGod to surface. If we have to we will build our own. That will delay the marketing of the kit but how can I supply a control that costs almost same as the compressor? Someone is making to much money.

He might be talking about the one on this thread. It's a pretty hot thread at the moment.
They have a pretty impressive video on the manufacturers site too.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=68392

<---- Still patiently waiting. :)
Too bad your 8 isn't up to snuff just just yet. Should've picked up a titanium - I heard they're the best out of the box ;) .
Honestly, I hope you get that fixed soon. I would really like to see what your SC can do with a comprehensive fuel/spark controller (like perhaps the Megasquirt).

If you need east coast testing let me know. :D ;)

I'm at sea level!

He might be talking about the one on this thread. It's a pretty hot thread at the moment.
They have a pretty impressive video on the manufacturers site too.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=68392



Not. That one is of no interest to me at that price. The one this guy has is a unichip or something like that. It has an extra nozzle in the intake manifold.

Richard have you considered an Allen Bradley PLC controller. :lightblb:
It is very simple to program using the latter logic program that is supplied with the chip.
5 lines of code is all it would take.


A simple equation could be programmed into the chip to add an increasing amount of fuel as the voltage from a pressure sensor rises.

unichip is quite expensive to richard. on the order of a grand

Richard have you considered an Allen Bradley PLC controller. :lightblb:
It is very simple to program using the latter logic program that is supplied with the chip.
5 lines of code is all it would take.


A simple equation could be programmed into the chip to add an increasing amount of fuel as the voltage from a pressure sensor rises.



Where do I find this product?

Richard have you considered an Allen Bradley PLC controller. :lightblb:
It is very simple to program using the latter logic program that is supplied with the chip.
5 lines of code is all it would take.


A simple equation could be programmed into the chip to add an increasing amount of fuel as the voltage from a pressure sensor rises.
That's a neat idea but we still require altering the ignition timing somehow.

http://www.mrplc.com/ is a forum that is basically for answering questions about Programmable Logic Controllers. Allen Bradly is a company under Rockwell

http://www.ab.com/

list of products with programmble controllers ont he right(alphabetical list:))

http://www.rockwellautomation.com/products/

I have a feeling that Charlie is desperately trying to get this project to speed up. lol Keep up the great work Richard. We have faith in you.

Richard check your emails. also the sales@axialflow.com address from your website bounced my email back. ougth to have that checked

The PLC is a good idea but I have some questions. First is it fast enough? Then can it take the automotive usage. Meaning vibration and heat. It seems to me that mounting it underhood is out of the question. Don't think these were designed for that.

Just did some math on these and it would be just about on the minimum or speed. That would be worth a try but the size and durability are the drawbacks. They are rather bulky. Not really elegant for our useage. We have used them on some automated machines that my partner designed and built. They are a snap to program, anyone can do it.

We think it would be a good thing to use for the engine dyno. Should that need ever come up. Still a good thought and I'll keep it in mind.

Richard check your emails. also the sales@axialflow.com address from your website bounced my email back. ougth to have that checked


I don't know how to get that damn thing to work. I own it and have done some of the whatever but it just doesn't come up. It's me or the computer. It has a lot of virus. It is so slow now that I can't even draw anything with it. Good thing I don't have any design projects right now. Just that I will soon. I think I better take it somewhere.

That would be worth a try but the size and durability are the drawbacks. They are rather bulky. Not really elegant for our useage.

I have done work with AB PLCs on Coast Guard and Navy Vessels. They have normal industrial temp ratings of 65 deg C and seem to handle the marine environment well (lots of shock/vibration, think big diesel engine 2 ft away). I agree that they are close to being too slow. As an advantage, you could come up with a run-time user interface for a PC to sell as an extra :D.

A better idea might be an off the shelf FPLD board. Those have become very fast and relatively cheep lately. You can even get them with on-chip A/D and D/A so you don't have to worry about the conversion of the transducer signals off-chip. Also easy to program.

Sorry if this has been suggested before (did a search for FPLD - got nothing).

While the Slick 500 is a nice piece from AB, the software to progam it is over $1000. That is just to write/edit/view the ladder program. This would still not give the end user of the SC any sort of control, monitoring or ability to change anything. Plus, in order to use the PLC based system, you need the CPU and an input/output module and probably a scanner module as well. Just these three things, plus the rack they would have to go in, make it a less than attractive option. Good idea though...I love PLC based systems. Have a ton of them at work.

While the Slick 500 is a nice piece from AB, the software to progam it is over $1000. That is just to write/edit/view the ladder program. This would still not give the end user of the SC any sort of control, monitoring or ability to change anything. Plus, in order to use the PLC based system, you need the CPU and an input/output module and probably a scanner module as well. Just these three things, plus the rack they would have to go in, make it a less than attractive option. Good idea though...I love PLC based systems. Have a ton of them at work.Well...there is always the option of going with a PIC based solution. They have A/D D/A. amplifiers and more intergreated on the same packages, but I don't know if they'd fit the right respone times required.

It is targeted for the end of the month to have the SC installed in my car. No answer to the Fuel problem yet. Stand alon units are way to high priced to be sold with the kit, it raises the price out of the market.


I'd like to see you fit your SC and tune it with the new plug-in EMS that’s being talked about at the moment. I realise it is not where your 'kit' development is heading but It would show the SC's full potential. You could potentially start selling SC units to those people that would probably ditch your fuelling method anyway.

Your chosen method of fuelling is probably going to be a compromise for various reasons and it will also probably be unsuited to .au conditions and factory 'tune'. For these reasons I would prefer to buy only the hardware (SC and mounting kit) and take it to a professional rotary shop to tune it with the plug-in EMS or motec. This makes lots of sense since some form of custom tuning is inevitable.

I'd like to see you fit your SC and tune it with the new plug-in EMS that’s being talked about at the moment. I realise it is not where your 'kit' development is heading but It would show the SC's full potential. You could potentially start selling SC units to those people that would probably ditch your fuelling method anyway.

Your chosen method of fuelling is probably going to be a compromise for various reasons and it will also probably be unsuited to .au conditions and factory 'tune'. For these reasons I would prefer to buy only the hardware (SC and mounting kit) and take it to a professional rotary shop to tune it with the plug-in EMS or motec. This makes lots of sense since some form of custom tuning is inevitable.




Number one, who says that this EMS will have better potential then what I intend to do. Since no one but myself has experience tuning these type superchargers why would you assume that I don't know more then they do. I also don't think there will be many who toss the factory developed system to have some guy in a garage build them a one off system. Stated that way does it sound the right thing to do?

Since when do I compromise? Just ask my ex wife. The system that I supply will be as good as it can get for any reasonable usage. I don't want to sound cocky about it but I spent 13 years tuning these things on my own Superflow engine dyno. In house there were no limits on how much testing I could do. I didn't pay for dyno time by the hour or have to go to someone elses shop. On the otherside of the wall was an engine building clean room. I learned a lot about what works and what not to bother with.

I know there will always be someone who knows more then I do about these things and they will redo things and if history has any validity they will destroy their engine. I have storys of it with my old blowers. However the best installations were done by people who admited they didn't know everything and followed the directions.

My problem of offering the unit bare is that when they blow their engine I will get badmouthed for it. It will always be the SC's fault. Therefore I will sell the kit with a locked controller. You think that is big brother don't you? Try looking at it from my point of veiw, It will always be the blowers fault if something goes wrong. I have to try and protect the reputation of the product.

This is not to say I'm closed off to other systems, we will continue to look for better ways to build things. But the thing about my idea is that the car runs just as it did before with all the stock sytems intact. No problems from cels. My fueling and spark changes only start to work when the manifold pressure goes posative. No EPA cycles use full throttle so nothing changes in any tests that governments do. I will be able to get CAFE exemption without a doubt because it will be run on the stock ECU.

I will not go into my theorys on homagiazation because it is writen at the begining of this thread. If intime there is someone who sounds like they know what they are doing and we have no personality conflicts (one of the requirments might be harder then the other, guess which?) I will help them develop whatever they want.

Gotta go back and drink some more "whine" now. Hope I got your questions answered.

*slap*

Number one, who says that this EMS will have better potential then what I intend to do. Since no one but myself has experience tuning these type superchargers why would you assume that I don't know more then they do. I also don't think there will be many who toss the factory developed system to have some guy in a garage build them a one off system. Stated that way does it sound the right thing to do?
...
Gotta go back and drink some more "whine" now. Hope I got your questions answered.

So your saying your supercharger delivers air in such a unique way that an experienced rotary tuner wouldn't be able to get it running?

When the 'some guy' in the garage has a business and around 20 years experience tuning rotaries. I would think they could tune a rotary. When the new engine management is a motec, I would ditch the STD computer except for a few factory features. When a motec cost about the same as a couple years worth of expendable tyres why would you settle for less?

So if you sell these kits to Australia and they cough and splutter for some unforseen reason what would be your fix?

What he is saying is that if he sells you a kit and you or anyone else tunes it, if you blow your engine up, the blame will almost certainly go to the supercharger when in reality that wasn't it. Even if you personally wouldn't blame it, others would. He is the ONLY person trying to get carb exemption for this kit to make it truly street legal. Tell me how an aftermarket ecu would be street legal.

My response to tha Australian market or any other foreign market would be one of 2 things.
1: Don't sell to them. It isn't made for those cars. (Sorry guys)
2: Use at your own risk. Due to differences in vehicle tuning around the world, the manufacturer can not guarantee that every market will utilize the same tuning and therefore can not guarantee that the product will work as it does in it's intended home market.

Lastly, show me ANY turbo/supercharger kit manufacturer out there for any car that will replace an engine if the engine blows up, even if it is the fault of the product. There isn't one. At least Richard doesn't want this to happen if for no other reason than to protect his image and that of his product.

It's not to say that someone out there can't tune an ecu to work with his blower. Many can. However any manufacturer concerned with the proper use of their product will be smart enough to know that these people are less common than those who "think" they can tune it on their own but really can't. Even the curious backyard tuner who assumes that lightly playing around can't hurt anything, can end up hurting the car. From a sales standpoint, he should develop a system that works exactly as he intended it to but also make it tamper proof where no one can modify it. Sure you can remove his ecu solution and use your own and people inevitibly will. The problem lies in the fact that these same people NEVER blame themselves for the mistake when they should. Even if the ecu solution that I am working on ever did become a viable option for Richard, and it may not, it would have a certain program locked into it and then access restricted and the main board design modified to prevent tampering with by those who have built them. It's the only safe way to do it but there would be the certain few out there who would tamper with it. The easiest thing to do in this scenario is that if there is ever any warranty work requested for a product (it will be for workmanship), the ecu should be shipped back to make sure that nothing has been tampered with. If evidence is found, the entire warranty would be voided. That's how I would do it so I can appreciate that Richard is trying to save his reputation.

He is going out of his way to design a very nice product and do it the way everyone wishes it to be done, properly AND fairly cheaply. That's pretty noble. It will still always be done wrong or too expensive for a few out there. The sheer fact is that no one out there does know the blower better than he does. He's got a certain design for the unit that he wants to do and a certain design goal. Who's to question his design before they ever see it? How many here have even seen an axial blower?

I disagree with your statement indicating that this unit should only be sold to the american market. What is the difference between the american market and the european market. Everyone seems to think the american RX8 is different from the european cars. The only difference I have found is the spark plugs are different. Someone with more now how than me could give me a list of differences probably. This american 8 was meant to be more powerful but that is not the case. The rx8 was meant to be released with 280HP this then dropped to the 240 mark then released at the 230HP figure. It was probably because you guys got then first you still thought you were getting a 240 machine. But the reality is different. This supercharger will work just as well on an austrailian rx or european rx. The differences are the fuel types available in each country. In the UK we can only buy 95Ron or 98Ron. But the rx likes the lower fuel 95. More miles and there is no difference in performance.
If I am way off the mark please except my humble appoligies.
Frustrated RX8 tuner.
Max power I have obtained is 240HP measured at the flywheel. This has been achived with a reamimeya header, rmagic high flow cat, custom ehaust cat back, canzoomer unit, Lightened flywheel and clutch from ogura racing and a blitz style air filter stuck in the standard black air box.
I think I have tried all products for the RX8 in the early days such as unichips and no cat installs.
Most have failed and been a dissappointment. This must be the hardest car in the world to try and find some free HP.

I disagree with your statement indicating that this unit should only be sold to the american market. What is the difference between the american market and the european market. Everyone seems to think the american RX8 is different from the european cars. The only difference I have found is the spark plugs are different... This supercharger will work just as well on an austrailian rx or european rx.

I definitely don't think that the unit should only be sold within the US but if there were a problem with other markets and their tuning couldn't be accounted for here, there would definitely have to be other possibilities and special tuning for those markets wouldn't be one of them. We don't have their cars and letting someone else somewhere develop the map that gets sold with those kits is not a very smart option. Those situations would be a "use at your own risk" scenario but they are pretty much that way anyways.

If there are no differences between different market cars, why did you yourself ask what would he do if there were a problem on a car from a different market? There won't be if they are the same so the question itself was irrelevant. Neither he nor any other kit maker out there will warranty someones engine if they blow it up anyways. The simple thing is to tune the system around a certain minimum fuel octane level and let that number be known ahead of time. That way if there are markets around the world with higher octane than here, they won't have any issues. Of course they will complain that they could have more power left in their tuning that isn't being taken advantage of but you can't make everyone happy.

I do think Richard is on the right track. He knows his product better than anyone else anywhere. Would I personally design it differently? With the limited knowledge I have of these blowers and how they have worked in the past I would be inclined to say yes but that is only a feeling. What if he gets it done his way and then all of a sudden it makes perfect sense to me? I haven't seen it done his way so until I do, I can't say it isn't the better way to do it. The tuning developed for any kit should be mandatory to use with it to maintain any product warranty. At least it will be this way in his eyes and I understand why. Obviously he needs to make sure it is tuned properly but he's too cautious not to. Greddy apparently isn't. If people change it, that's their choice but they do it at their own risk and their own expense. People will do it. That's only natural. Remember that his overall layout isn't done yet. He may still make tweaks to the setup yet. He needs to get it all tested first.

Don't think Richard is getting mad over this topic. He is understandably a little irritated and defensive but his methods are being questioned and he is the only person truly qualified to know about these blowers and their best setup. This is also a very personal project for him as this isn't some large corporation that he is employed by that makes products for the mass market. These are his babies. You just don't tell a designer that there is a better way to do it when no one but he has seen anything yet. He's the only one with facts. Everyone else has speculation.

You are correct that this car is hard to find free horsepower. That frustrates alot of people. It's actually a perception issue. I almost feel that Mazda should have advertised this car as having 175 hp and then restricted many aspects of the engine's intake and exhaust. Suddenly everyone would like it because they know up front what they are getting and because they can get "free" horsepower. That would have been pure genious on Mazda's part. Instead they did what people are always striving to do anyways. They extracted nearly all they could from the engine and then sold it that way. No need to go in and find "free" horsepower. They've done it for you. We are talking about an engine that makes almost 70 hp more than the last nonturbo rotary and it still has the same displacement. That's alot of "free" horsepower that is already included. Too many people think that you should always get more than what you paid for rather than what you paid for. (The RX-8 most certainly makes it's rated power btw) When they don't get more, they feel ripped off and like they got less than they paid for. I feel the problem was with advertising of the power like I already said. 175 hp is a good number and is still 15 more than the last n/a rotary but now you'd have more room to improve and everyone would be happy. At least the perception would hold true. To get 240 hp out of an old 13B rotary would take some serious porting, terrible emissions, a loud exhaust, and much worse gas mileage than the engine has now. I'd say everyone with an RX-8 has it good with all of their "free" power but they just don't know it. Even the Turbo II RX-7 at 9 psi of boost only made 200 hp. This engine has come a long way and people still aren't happy with it. Why was everyone so happy with it when it was weak but not now?

I hear what you are saying loud and clear.
I agree with your statements and sorry if I took it a bit out of context.
I am not saying myself that I could do a better job of tuning the charger, just make sure that I can get one as well. I live in Scotland, this is most unfortunate place for a rotary owner as no such rotary tuners are in this country. I am basically flying blind with this project car.
Thats why I have my eye on another car as well, you guys are so lucky, you can get one if you want but me I have to import the damn thing. Costs ££££'s
Got my eye one the new Shelby Cobra GT500 Mustang.
Looks sweet.
But I will still be keeping the RX as it is so much fun.
Hope everything goes well for richard and his project, I have already offered him a unichip that I have, but as it is piggyback hes not too keen.
Like I said before I am not flaming just voicing concerns.
Thanks for listening.

Rotarygod

Are you suggesting that a Supercharger built here in Australia and tuned to our Australian cars as the one being done by Hymee / Dr Phil wont be suitable for the American market ???

Australia happens to have some of the best rotary specialists tuners in the world , anyone who goes FI must take a calculated risk but obviously they are prepared to lose their warranties and possibly their engines for the sake of more power ( caveat emptor )

B.....free
michael

No I'm not saying that. I personally have no doubt that any forced induction kit will work just fine around the world. After all, it is still the same engine. I just merely threw out the example suggesting that different markets may have a different state of required tune and depending on who the company is, it may or may not be easy to get a region specific tune.

I'd love to go to Australia sometime and visit all of the rotary shops. I know how good they are down there. All in all I think the U.S. has less rotary specific shops overall than Australia or Japan. Unfortunately we don't see much come our way from those shops and only a handful of ours are actually more than just service centers that create parts for specific needs.

Lastly, show me ANY turbo/supercharger kit manufacturer out there for any car that will replace an engine if the engine blows up, even if it is the fault of the product. There isn't one. At least Richard doesn't want this to happen if for no other reason than to protect his image and that of his product.

Stillen warranties their superchargers, at least on the 350Z, for a full 3 years. That's on the engine; the supercharger itself is only a 12-month warranty. And on a car known to go ka-boom under boost rather readily as well.

Then they are the only ones who will warranty an engine. Let's see Greddy or other kit makers out there warranty your engine if you blow it up.

I wouldn't be too impreesed with Stillens warrenty. The 1 year on the supercharger is a manufacturer warranty that you would get no matter where you bought the SC. The optional ( key word there ) engine warranty is purchased from a third party with Stillen as the broker. If you wanted to you could probably get a warrenty on the Greddy kit if you chose to deal with a third party and were willing to abide by their rules for installation and use.

Soooo, any news on the supercharger yet? :)

Since when do I compromise? Just ask my ex wife. The system that I supply will be as good as it can get for any reasonable usage.
My problem of offering the unit bare is that when they blow their engine I will get badmouthed for it. It will always be the SC's fault. Therefore I will sell the kit with a locked controller.
This is not to say I'm closed off to other systems, we will continue to look for better ways to build things. But the thing about my idea is that the car runs just as it did before with all the stock sytems intact. No problems from cels. My fueling and spark changes only start to work when the manifold pressure goes posative. No EPA cycles use full throttle so nothing changes in any tests that governments do. I will be able to get CAFE exemption without a doubt because it will be run on the stock ECU.



Hey all we want is a good reliable system. RP will improve the product overtime and you will be able to send the ECU back for a re-tune.

So what's your worry?

If you guys really want to buy something to blow up your engine go get a Greddy and turn up the boost. Then you'll be like Broken Apex Seal.


RP's unit is gonna blow the doors off that 5lb boost. I bet your gonna get 100 to 150 RWP from his SC. Wah Wah Wah... then you can't mess with his ECU and your car won't break.

Hey all we want is a good reliable system. RP will improve the product overtime and you will be able to send the ECU back for a re-tune.

So what's your worry?

If you guys really want to buy something to blow up your engine go get a Greddy and turn up the boost. Then you'll be like Broken Apex Seal.


RP's unit is gonna blow the doors off that 5lb boost. I bet your gonna get 100 to 150 RWP from his SC. Wah Wah Wah... then you can't mess with his ECU and your car won't break.

I think that is probably an overstatement...we are talking about a supercharger here

I'm VERY interested in RPs and Hymee's upcoming SCs...but up to 150RWP?

lets all hope

I want a SC for its smooth power curve...in addition for reliability and ease of install...plus maintainence is a breeze

SC may cost more but these things are worth it

Turbocharger...I've ridden in a turboed greddy...it is a blast, using an ECU to boost performance to the max...will make it a dyno queen yes...but will it fullfill the rest of my interests? no way

Keep up the great work Richard!

I'd love to go to Australia sometime and visit all of the rotary shops. I know how good they are down there. All in all I think the U.S. has less rotary specific shops overall than Australia or Japan. Unfortunately we don't see much come our way from those shops and only a handful of ours are actually more than just service centers that create parts for specific needs.

Well if you bring a RP supercharger Dowunder fit it to my car and tune it correctly :cool: i will pay for your fare :D but it will have to beat our local Hymster Supercharger at the rear wheels .

Most of our interstate forum members i am certain would love to see you as well , you could visit all our rotary shops and see a bit of Australia .

B...free
michael

Thanks for the offer. That would be fun. There's probably at least one person down there though who just wants to smack me though!


I think saying Richard's unit will make 150 more horsepower is a little optimistic. His goal is only about 300 or so. Because of this, Hymee's very well may make more power in the long run. Maybe not. We'll see.

Thanks for the offer. That would be fun. There's probably at least one person down there though who just wants to smack me though!


I think saying Richard's unit will make 150 more horsepower is a little optimistic. His goal is only about 300 or so. Because of this, Hymee's very well may make more power in the long run. Maybe not. We'll see.

I would have thought Texans were tough and would fight back :D if an Aussie would try and smack them ;) , dont think you need to worry most of the Aussies on the forum are IT pacifists .

B...free
michael

I would have thought Texans were tough and would fight back :D if an Aussie would try and smack them ;) , dont think you need to worry most of the Aussies on the forum are IT pacifists .

B...free
michael

Kangaroo Punch...watch out RG! :D

Why do you keep saying IT pacifists like all IT people are pacifists? I'm Not a pacifist!

I would have thought Texans were tough and would fight back :D if an Aussie would try and smack them ;) , dont think you need to worry most of the Aussies on the forum are IT pacifists .

B...free
michael

Why do you keep saying IT pacifists like all IT people are pacifists? I'm Not a pacifist!

he'll CTRL+ALT+Delete your ass right? :p

In the neighborhood of 300whp sounds like more than enough for the street.

If the ECU control for this is going to be completely sealed, based on how our engines all seem to react so differently to upgrades won't this both limit horsepower and in some cases make this SC not the best application for some of us?

Your engines only react a little differently because of the ecu controlling them. If you can take the ecu out of the equation where it can't compensate for anything, you will have consistency between cars.

I'm interested in it for a variety of reasons. It's the one I'm holding out for myself.

I think it's very innovative and unique. Along with a rotary it really appeals to me. Knowing that they use them on Jet's is extra appealing.
From the sound of it, and I know there isn't any guarantees, but it sounds like it would pass a smog test especially since it is a draw through system. Which also helps if the belt to the SC fails, you won't be stopping the flow of air to the engine.
I like superchargers more than turbos, personal preference.
The size. That thing is tiny.
and RP seems like a cool guy who knows his stuff.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the results.

If the belt breaks, the supercharger will still spin when the engine is running. Even a roots supercharger will just purely from the airflow through it. That's why they really don't take as much power as people think they do when you are just cruising and they aren't working. If you aren't flooring it anywhere, the difference in gas mileage will be small. Obviously under full throttle they rob power but they give back far more than they take, just like turbos.

If the belt breaks, the supercharger will still spin when the engine is running. Even a roots supercharger will just purely from the airflow through it. That's why they really don't take as much power as people think they do when you are just cruising and they aren't working. If you aren't flooring it anywhere, the difference in gas mileage will be small. Obviously under full throttle they rob power but they give back far more than they take, just like turbos.
Roots and twinscrews don't spin without belt. Leave the bypass valve open and you drive stock car.

A roots most certainly will spin without a belt. We did it on my friend's Grand Prix and that was with the bypass open. Ther's enough airflow. The bypass is more of a pressure relief valve than anything. There really isn't much flow through them.

Mine never spun without a belt and open 1 1/2" bypass. From my experience it needs a fair effort just to hand turn the pulley. I imagine it'll need more power to turn it from the roots side. Its not like spinning a turbine.

there arent any pics within like 70 pages so i thought i would bring this one forward :)

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49702

richard will the outlet be shaped differently to connect to the intake manifold?

Damn that thing is SEXY!

The outlet you see there has been modified for more flow then originally designed for. But to answer your question No, the shape is pretty much finalized. There will be a casting that directs the flow into a round tube. That then connects to a new intake manifold. These are first to be fab'ed for prototype then cast for production once the shape is developed.

As a side note, I intend to try and get the low end power up with longer primarys. This is doable since the top end is taken care of with supercharge. My final goal is to make the car more drivable everywhere. I can't promise it but I will put some time into trying with primary length. As long as I have to make a new casting it may as well do something. :cool:

I do believe I mentioned a while back that I wanted longer primaries for low end too! Either we think alike or you are stealing my ideas! ;) j/k It's backwards thinking from everyone else and I like it.

Just get one installed on a car for visual appeal to be shown off at sevenstock. Already got the hotel.

Gee, the fella who took that photo did a good job :)

Cheers,
Hymee.

thanks richard. :)

i wanna make a cardboard mockup and try fitment in my car:) give the wife something to go on about:) she thinks im a little obsessive;)richard mayde you can send me a broken one?or a reject:D
you'd think the fella who took it could put something in the pic like a finger or a ruler for scale:);)

I don't know if I'd ask him for a picture of a finger. You never know which one you'll get.

I thought some of the other shots had some things for relative size. Oh well. I didn't want to make it look like I was stealing every detail ;)

Cheers,
Hymee.

Wow that thing is sexy! :D I really can't wait to see one installed. I guess I missed you posting a while back about making a new manifold, but that's good to hear. Keep up the good work Richard. You da man :p

As long as we are moving pics forward, may as well show this one for relative size.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56879

I don't know if I'd ask him for a picture of a finger. You never know which one you'll get.

i make a god straight man giving leads like that :D


I thought some of the other shots had some things for relative size. Oh well. I didn't want to make it look like I was stealing every detail ;)

Cheers,
Hymee.


i was just having some fun hymee. nice pics :)

i know i asked this before but just for clarification cause i cant find the posts- the TB will be bolted directlyto the inlet side ? or another way - the inlet of the blower will be bolted directly to the TB?

The TB will be ducted to the inlet. Right now the inlet is the rear of the compressor. Said inlet is now my avitar compliments of BaronVonBigmeat.
The outlet I think will be facing up as shown in the picture. There is plenty of room on top for the duct.
As I see it right now the unit sits close to the alt with all the room I can get next to the ABS. The ABS can be moved over about 3/4 of an inch if nessasary.
I haven't looked to see if the alt can be shoved over any.

The TB is going to wind up in front of the blower and the MAF might be where the airbox is. That will force the aircleaner behind the bumper. Maybe not, we shall see. The TB is a bulky thing.

BTW, Fred, did you see that blerb from someone about a throttle adjustment box available in Japan?

Zoom44, I'll PM you in a little while about some stuff.

The TB will be ducted to the inlet. Right now the inlet is the rear of the compressor. Said inlet is now my avitar compliments of BaronVonBigmeat.




i should have included this otehr pic by hymee earlier its a good one and matches your avatar

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49700


i was looking at everythin earlier and i agree the TB is a bulky thing. thanks for the insight Richard.



hey Fred!! you and I talked about longer primary runners at 7stock a YEAR ago:D

The ABS can be moved over about 3/4 of an inch if nessasary.

Great minds... http://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_dance.gif

BTW - did you know the alt is actually a gen? :eek: !

Cheers,
Hymee.

see i pointed that out and someone else said it was really an altenator just Mazda was using the name generator.

here http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=67852&highlight=generator

Mazda calls the Alternator on the Mazda6 a Generator too. Makes for one hell of an expensive part, whether it's just their nomenclature or an actual part differerence. I think, going off an old memory here, someone said the Generator in the Mazda6s was $600 from Mazda.

What is the difference between an alternator and a generator? Do they create current/power in different ways? Or is it that the alternator is not independent like the generator? :confused:

Damn! That is one beautiful piece of precision machinery. Too bad it has to be hidden under the hood.

In looking at the inlet picture, I would have expected more inlet area. Maybe it is just the scale of the picture but it seems like a lot less area than the cross section of the current inlet tube. Is the sizing of the inlet area designed to accelerate the air flow?

I also wonder about managing the air flow hitting the inlet. Will you use some type of diverter, like the conical spinner on the front of a jet engine, to flow the air around the flat plate in the center? Just paint it black so it resembles the inlet spike on our beloved SR-71. :)

Richard, why can't you do the inlet something like these with the tb on the front and have the outlet like the one you already have but at the rear instead? Wouldn't this take care of alot of packaging issues?