Just like it is a little uncalled for to sift through 51 pages of similar banter in this thread.

i have to disagree. jovial banter and the relationships that it has built along the way are the REASON this thread and Richard stick around. and the reason that we will have a great FI option when it is finished.

Well I'm glad you guys missed me so much. However I was away on some family buisness for too long of a time. I'm on way back, this is the first computer I have been able to use in almost two weeks. Should be home by start of the week.

One thing is almost ready, I'm not in the shop but I hear the shifters will be ready in two weeks. The shafts are prototyped and we just have to make those nylon parts. When I'm back I'll post some pics on the other thread.

Just don't bail on me, the SC is all I live for.

WOW!

This must be the best thread on the 'net.

I do not own an 8, but I WANT. I have been working with Ford products for many years, including power adders and tuning (not manufacturing or tuning myself, but performing the installs). I think I might have some information that is of value in this thread.

There has been some concern about the strength of the resin (plastic) intake runners on the 8. While I am not sure what exact material it is, or the sectional area of the wall, I can assure you that similar materials on Ford and Dodge products are holding in excess of 12 PSI of intake pressurization without failures. In some cases, much greater pressures are seen, as high a 22 psi. The only reported "failures" are from people getting greedy with NOx and exploding the intake alltogather.

I read this entire thread twice, understand about 10% at moments, less others. But, I see there are tuning issues. I might be able to point you to some folks who can help. I already pmed some people the info, and since it is no secret, I will share it here as well. There is a fella, a former Ford powertrai engineer who is MOST HIGHLY respected and has done work for Jack Roush and FMC on a consulting basis for driveability (tuning). He has been "tuning" Ford products for many years, 5 that I know of first hand. He has now "officially" started a firm with the help of Superchips (they supply hardware and a name), it is called Superchips Custom Tuning (SCT). The fellow's name is Jerry W. He was on the design team for the ford 4R70W transmission, and has been active on dozens of Ford product related BBs since about 1997. He strives to make sure the CORRECT information is out there, and has helped thousands to make better modifications and decisions about their cars. This fellow and his team, can literally change ANYTHING in the EEC if the hardware will allow it. They know as well as the factory, how to alter the EEC for various changes to engine hardware. The best part is, none of it *necessarily* changes emissions performance or certification (in the real world).

Ok, time to re-read, again.

It's not worth taking up the space on this forum otherwise.......

Damn it would suck to use up all the space on the Internet...

It's no secret but Richard just hasn't posted info on it. As you all know he has a 5 stage he has been working on. He also has been working on a 4 stage compressor. He is still working out efficiency differences between the rotary vs his compressors. If he can hit his goals with a 4 stage then great. Until then, he's testing 2 different units and needs to decide between them since they are more complex than just adding a stage to get more boost. Each one has to be designed to work togther as a system and as such each individual stage is a little different and each stage of the 5 stage is different than each of the 4 stage. You guys should feel fortunate he is doing so much research to give you the best product designed exclusively for your engine rather than just releasing a product to the public that merely works OK. He wants it right. Why is there always enough time and money to do it over again but never enough time and money to do it right the first time? He's avoiding this. Keep in mind he has also been contracted to make shift kits and pulleys. Also keep in mind that he doesn't have an RX-8 or Renesis at his shop and is relying on outside testing according to when schedules don't conflict. If this were all he worked on and he had everything in house then he would probably be done faster. But he doesn't.

Get over it people. If you have a problem with this thread, don't look at it. That's much easier than getting everyone else not to.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." -Spock

What's the record at RX8Club.com for the longest thread? I don't think I have ever seen a thread this long.

Long thread?
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=135921

This one has what 700 replies so far? Try 3000+ :eek:

RX8club has a way to go.

I'm really getting fed up with no usefull news on this thread.



Wow....You really are a whinging Pom, aren't you! This is the second time I've told you to pull your head in....Back in your cage!

Gomez.

Long thread?
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=135921

This one has what 700 replies so far? Try 3000+ :eek:

RX8club has a way to go.

Our "in the news" thread started by I,Claudius is approaching 5000 posts, it's pretty insane. Ok , sorry about the hijack. Thanks for the response Richard. We promise we won't bail on you.

This fellow and his team, can literally change ANYTHING in the EEC if the hardware will allow it.

The key is "if the hardware will allow it". The RX-8 doesn't use a Ford ECU, it's a Mazda part, and the coding is encrypted. It seems that perhaps Racing Beat has cracked the ECU and is able to reprogram it, but (as far as I know) nobody else in North America has managed that feat yet. Tuning isn't necessarily the hard part - it's reprogramming or piggybacking the ECU that has stumped all the FI vendors to date.

Regards,
Gordon

Richard,
u live in chatsworth? Near Northride, Granada hills? If you do i used to live there when i was in the states

Gordon,

I'm pretty sure, from what I have been told, that Mazda uses Ford encryption, or a version of it. What I meant by the hardware statement, was that he cannot add functions (like knock sensors etc) unless the EEC has the hardware for it. Ford even went so far as to disable the "service ports" on the later EECs to prevent people from installing chips. That didn't work, he had that figured out in about 5 minutes. The new CAN stuff, no problem for him. Everyone else is scratching their heads.

I'm not saying that I KNOW he has gotton into the Mazda EEC, only that if anyone CAN do it, he would be THE GUY. He has beaten FMC every time they have tried to make it impossible to "tune", and stayed infront of them. From what I hve been told, the Mazda and Ford EECs are not worlds apart.

Our "in the news" thread started by I,Claudius is approaching 5000 posts, it's pretty insane. Ok , sorry about the hijack. Thanks for the response Richard. We promise we won't bail on you.

Not quite a technical discussions thread, and that thread was many political topic threads merged into one, but still quite a long thread :D

There is a topic, "The Official Babe Thread" on fordvschevy.com that's been going about two years. 34xx posts, 173,220 views on 117 pages of photos!

About a year ago, it crippled their server.

Dammit, I knew Spock was a freakin' communist, but YOU RG? :D

jds


"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." -Spock

LOL

Richard posted information on 29th of october (http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=589897&postcount=739)

2 weeks is not a VERY long time to me. you can and may continue to suggest that this thread be moved or altered as much as you want but it is going to stay right here. now if you start getting belligerent about it ill be forced to start deleting your's and anyone else's beligerent posts.

But how much ifo did the post on the 29th Oct. provide??

None.

I am (have been for a long time) a little worried that no apparent progress has been made on this. I think it's understandable considering the length of time anthing of use was said on this subject. Maybe somebody could look this up?? (Personally, I'm not prepared to wade through multiple pages of meaningless chit-chat.)

If you think I'm getting beligerant, then YOU should go and look up the meaning of the word. Your post is more beligerant than ANY of mine have ever been.

If you want to delete posts, delete the waste of time and *bump* ones. At least that will make this thread easier to read. That's if you don't want to abuse the authority you have on this forum... :rolleyes:

Wow....You really are a whinging Pom, aren't you! This is the second time I've told you to pull your head in....Back in your cage!

Gomez.

If you want to pick a fight with me, do it on PM...

WIMP!

Wow....You really are a whinging Pom, aren't you! This is the second time I've told you to pull your head in....Back in your cage!

Gomez.

Who the hell do you think you are anyway!

But putting idiots to one side, I can see that not many others are worrying about this. I DO hope RP does this. I have just seen other things go no-where on this forum before.
AND (just for the record) I wish RP every luck, but I do wish he would post something usefull once in a while and it worries me that progress isn't being made...

I can't help but feel partially responsible for this little tussle.

Thusly, allow me to dance for you
http://tresch.tv/images/treschdance.gif

I say this: Until its your time and your MONEY going into builiding ANYTHING for our cars, shut the hell up! I am not talking about anyone in particular either. In the grand scheme of life, what the hell does it matter if ppl are bumping this thread, or going a lil off topic with the convo? So freakin what? No one is forcing anyone else to read anything on these forums. If someone wants RP to stop everything else he might be doing to work on the SC for our car, then pony up and fork over some cash to pay him to do it. Until then, lay off.

*there should be a law against drama queens*

Also, by complaining about lack of info from RP, or complaining about anything else on here, ppl are in fact "bumping" the thread themselves....

Who the hell do you think you are anyway!
This is being belligerent, and this will probably get a warning or something. Man, please be patient. Richard is working on this project. He's been working on these kinds of projects for years, there is no reason for him to cop out on us now. Richard really likes us here(I hope so :D ) and he really doesn't seem like the kind of guy who'd just up and drop the project after all of this. These things take time, so wait patiently and you'll see good things. I really hope you think about what you're saying and don't think any less of him because he hasn't updated in a few days. Sometimes there can't be updates, I think he posted a few days ago saying he wasn't at home and couldn't do any work. He has other things to do as well, he can meet your every wish. This will get done, I can't say when, but Richard will finish it. For the record, when you post these things, you take the thread off topic. Just something to think about.

OK people a bump in the thread or getting a little off topic is cool. Just don't turn it into a yelling match. That'll close it down.

Roger that RG. No sense in hacking on a man that is trying to HELP us.....just dont get it myself. Thats all I was trying to say in case there was any confusion on that ....

There is a topic, "The Official Babe Thread" on fordvschevy.com that's been going about two years. 34xx posts, 173,220 views on 117 pages of photos!

About a year ago, it crippled their server..

After sifting through every page on there I've confirmed that this is true

Im working on a whipple twin screw supercharger powered car, its axial flow. Now we are back on topic.

Rotarygod, would you try this, (once again). you write better then I do.

Would I try what? If you are referring to Ice's comment, he's only joking. We all know Whipple's are really centrifugal! ;)

Apologies to Richard in advance...

Who the hell do you think you are anyway!

I'm someone who had his thread about Richard's Short Shifter project hijacked by some fool suffering from too much time on his hands and too little patience.
I shall refrain from name-calling..

Gomez.

Yes whipples are quite centrifigual :D

http://www.customfurniture.net/rodjaypdx/page2.html

The jokes on me, I'm a little slow.
Damn good thing I didn't give a two page lecture, then I'd have to shoot someone.

Yes whipples are quite centrifigual :D

http://www.customfurniture.net/rodjaypdx/page2.html
Great picture! I love the custom cold radiator fan air intake!

First pf all the correct term fo the turbo is "turbosupercharger".

Next I would love to see the intake temp. Wanna bet it melts the eaton rotors if held at full throtle.

I was once contracted by an off shore team in Italy to go over to their facility and consult on S/cing. They had run into trouble with roots blowers on the dyno. They were getting the rotors so hot that they got soft and started transfering metal. That was with 12 psi.

The only way to get away with WOT as on an offshore boat is to run the fuel into The blower. Can't do it with port injection.

I got a nice trip to Italy though. I was there three days and gained 6 lbs.
Had to stop in GB for a few days to loose it.
Sorry Brits, I love England and the people but your food sucks.

But I love the air horns.

First pf all the correct term fo the turbo is "turbosupercharger".

Next I would love to see the intake temp. Wanna bet it melts the eaton rotors if held at full throtle.

I was once contracted by an off shore team in Italy to go over to their facility and consult on S/cing. They had run into trouble with roots blowers on the dyno. They were getting the rotors so hot that they got soft and started transfering metal. That was with 12 psi.

Quite correct, especially since that turbo is non-intercooled. After seeing a friends 99 MX-5 running 20 PSI on an Mp62 with air/water intercooler and water injection and seeing 300-400F temperatures, woohoo.

I am not the one working on that setup, but they are possibly planning to actually sell a setup like that (in small quantities), or at least using it as a joke.

My setup is just straight 1.2L twin screw with air/water intercooler and water injection. Might not need the water injection but we will see.

Something's wrong with the pictures on this page, but here's an interesting blurb about a real-life combination of turbo and SC:

http://freespace.virgin.net/shalco.com/lancia_S4.htm

It's definitely been done before. There are just so many easier ways to get alot and probably far more power than combining two different systems. I would like to see them sequential. I'd like to see a positive displacement supercharger for the low end but then swtich over to a turbo for the high end. I would rather see them integrated in parallel rather than series. This would be a bitch to do but it is actually hinted that this is the technique used on the rally car in that article. That would be cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tokenbrit
Who the hell do you think you are anyway!


Well, at least we know that Gomez is not a whinging POM!

Joe

All I have been doing in the past is putting forward an opinion. To me, that's my right as a forum member here. It seems to me that the loyalty RP has attained here has put him on a pedestal. I hope this loyalty is well placed. I wish him luck, I really do, because (in my opinion) this will be the ideal type of FI for road use.
It is clear that my worries are not shared by many others. And I'll leave it there...

C'mon RG - do you want seqential or parallel? Hehehe.

As a mater of fact, it is quite common in marine engine applications to employ a combination of both a mechanical-supercharger, and a turbo-supercharger. I get extra points from RAP for those terms :)

As one who has gotten to know RAP personally, and seen his workshop and products, I would like to ask TokenBrit, in the politest possible manner, to tone it down a bit, thanks very much.

RAP's axial flow is a piece of engineering perfection. Well, nearly as perfect as a Autorotor twin screw ;) Hats off to you, RAP.

Cheers,
Hymee.

And I appologise for this (really), because I am briefly taking this thread off track again.

BUT Gomez, I don't like your digs at me. I told you to that if you wanted to insult me, do it on PM. If you haven't got the balls to do that. Your more of a pussy than I originally thought you were. Don't slyly dig me. That's the cowards way...

Back on thread now... Sorry everybody.

As one who has gotten to know RAP personally, and seen his workshop and products, I would like to ask TokenBrit, in the politest possible manner, to tone it down a bit, thanks very much.


Done. I wasn't wanting to start a 'war' anyway.

Your getting the last word type of comment will probably get a rebuttal again. We don't need that. Your message as per your own statement could have been sent through a PM and not here. Please guys, stop it!

rg wrote: It's definitely been done before. There are just so many easier ways to get alot and probably far more power than combining two different systems. I would like to see them sequential. I'd like to see a positive displacement supercharger for the low end but then swtich over to a turbo for the high end. I would rather see them integrated in parallel rather than series. This would be a bitch to do but it is actually hinted that this is the technique used on the rally car in that article. That would be cool.
Just use an electric turbo and you're all set.

Just use an electric turbo and you're all set.
There is no such thing as an electric turbo. Turbochargers are, by definition, TURBINE-DRIVEN superchargers. An electrically driven supercharger in NOT a turbocharger.

C'mon RG - do you want seqential or parallel? Hehehe.


Oops, I see how that wording was very confusing and actually wrong. I was thinking one think but typing another. I would like to see the supercharger only for low end and the high end only on the turbo. When I said sequential, I actually meant a transfer from one to the other rather than bringing the other one in later in conjunction with the first. You probably figured that out though.

bobclevenger wrote: There is no such thing as an electric turbo. Turbochargers are, by definition, TURBINE-DRIVEN superchargers. An electrically driven supercharger in NOT a turbocharger.
No such thing? So what's this then?
http://rotarynews.com/?q=node/view/381

An electric motor doesn't care whether it has to drive a supercharger (centrifugal, axial, twin screw, roots etc.), a turbocharger with a turbine wheel and a centrifugal compressor on the same axis or a leaf blower for that matter.

He was being technical.

Precisely. I tend to use words carefully.

The item to which the link refers is an electrically-assisted turbocharger. It is NOT an "electric turbocharger." It is a turbocharger by virtue of having a turbine to drive the compressor at high engine speeds, as all turbosuperchargers (the proper term) have. You can electrically assist almost any rotating device.

The electrically-assisted turbosupercharger is actually quite an interesting idea and sounds practical if one has sufficient electrical power to operate it. I would assume that the electric motor automatically disconnects after the turbine gets up to speed via an over-running clutch or some such device.

I just tend to get rather annoyed at the hordes of folks who seem to think that "turbochargers" are not superchargers.

I just tend to get rather annoyed at the hordes of folks who seem to think that "turbochargers" are not superchargers.

Hooray!!! Here, here!! My sentiments exactly!

We have 2 basic genre...

(1) Turbo-superchargers,
(2) Mechanical-superchargers.

Item 1, is commonly known as a "Turbo".
Item 2 could be extended to include Electrically driven.

Then one could further decompose these families into the types of compressors they use - Positive Displacement (Roots, Twin-Screw, Vane), and Centrifugal and Axial Flow.

Then you could even decompose the "turbo" bit to indicate if it was axial flow, like in a jet engine, or the common turbine wheel style.

And then you could start making all sort of combinations of the drive mechanism, and the compressor mechanism :) Some would be practical, and some not. One combo would be a Jet engine as seen in aircraft, another combo would be a gas turbine like in a ship or generator, one combo would be the "turbo".

An impractical combo would probably be a exhaust driven positive displacement supercharger :)

Cheers,
Hymee.

And Item 2 could be extended to include pneumatic, hydraulic or even flywheel driven superchargers. (Not that any of these would necessarily be any better).

And in addition to a turbocharger one could use a turbine wheel to drive or rather assist the crankshaft instead of driving a supercharger. As for instance Scania does, which claims to sell the most efficient Truck engines.

http://www.scania.com/products/new_truck_range/engines/12_litre/470hp.asp

Now you are talking about compound supercharging.

Another interesting turbo compound example:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Napier%20Nomad

Yes the Nomad is a very interesting engine. But this site doesn't tell the while story. My post number 357 on page 24 of this thread hints towards this.
If you ever get the chance to read the whole thing it reads like a horror story. Well not quite. But it is full of all sorts of misguided development brought on by burocrats and goverment personel who were still in war mode.

Optmistic developers who fired engineers when things couldn't be done with the current technology. The funding was done in war time when anything that could be proposed got funds.

all in all though the fact that it ran in the end is a tribute to the excelent engineering staff at Napier. They were responsable for a lot of sleeve valve engines that flew a lot of missions. In todays world they would never be accepted as even airworthy.

If they continued development into the 1950's you can't blame them for wanting to eat.
I'm sure some of the development work they did helped future engine development. Espescially when you see some of the documentation of these British firms. These are very interesting documentsfrom several companys. I have seen lots of WWll studies from RR that have given me basic thinking that I carry today.

And then you could start making all sort of combinations of the drive mechanism, and the compressor mechanism :) Some would be practical, and some not. One combo would be a Jet engine as seen in aircraft, another combo would be a gas turbine like in a ship or generator, one combo would be the "turbo".



huh? I had the understanding that the "gas turbine" on ships... well military ships were just jet engines without the turbofan. For example the John S. McCain runs I believe a GE turbine that is also used in one of the fighter planes... F-15 or F-16. I'll have to ask my navy friend about that again. Although it can run jet fuel the navy uses diesel simply because it's cheaper.

You don't have to. We have our own resident expert on this thread, turbine _pwr.
Are you out there turbine?

So whats the news on a streets date or Dyno nu#'s?

huh? I had the understanding that the "gas turbine" on ships... well military ships were just jet engines without the turbofan. For example the John S. McCain runs I believe a GE turbine that is also used in one of the fighter planes... F-15 or F-16. I'll have to ask my navy friend about that again. Although it can run jet fuel the navy uses diesel simply because it's cheaper.


Some gas turbines are aero derivitives ie. they are derived from a jet engine. They are ideal where weight is a problem but will not be as cheap as an industrial gas turbine that has specifically been designed to give shaft horsepower and not thrust. Gas turbines can run on diesel fuel too. (as can the aero engines)

The difference between a jet engine and a gas turbine is that the gas turbine has a "power turbine" to extract the energy from the gas flow instead of using it as thrust.

Better yet, they can run on Remy Martin VSOP or Ronrico 151.

Hopefully I can release some numbers in a couple of weeks. Before I get my head bit off.

Better yet, they can run on Remy Martin VSOP or Ronrico 151.

Hopefully I can release some numbers in a couple of weeks. Before I get my head bit off.
Sounds good Richard, keep up the good work :D

Better yet, they can run on Remy Martin VSOP or Ronrico 151.

Hopefully I can release some numbers in a couple of weeks. Before I get my head bit off.

use very fine spirts in a engine. only if life depended on it. keep up the good work.

beers

Good to see progress is still being made.

^ ?

Good to see progress is still being made.

There is no shortcut to perfection. As the tale of the tortoise and the hare points out, slow and steady wins the race. Quality is better than quantity.....

Gomez.

There is no shortcut to perfection. As the tale of the tortoise and the hare points out, slow and steady wins the race. Quality is better than quantity.....

Gomez.

The problem is this thread isn't about an axial flow supercharger. I've learned a lot about jet engines (still not sure how an engine that essentially works at a stagnate throttle position and stagnate RPM relates to the daily driven Renesis).

I just wish all the useless posts, umm ... I mean unrelated posts, could be filtered out.

This thread is a random-musing-aeronautical-engine-love-fest and there isn't really any new info. Could we put the ramblings (including this one) in a seperate junk thread in the lounge?

Currently this thread isn't worth reading especially for someone new to it.

-Mr. Wigggles

Currently this thread isn't worth reading especially for someone new to it.

-Mr. Wigggles
Nobody's forcing anyone to read this thread (or any other thread, for that matter).
If you find it uninformative and/or uninteresting, just quit reading it; problem solved.
Some of us find it both informative and interesting. YMMV.

Nobody's forcing anyone to read this thread (or any other thread, for that matter).
If you find it uninformative and/or uninteresting, just quit reading it; problem solved.
Some of us find it both informative and interesting. YMMV.

I am not deeply insulted by the lack of relevant information. I am deeply disappointed by it.

And yes I do plan to stop reading this thread. pity...

-Mr. Wigggles

Dont kill me but I kinda agree with this guy. After all the thead was opened in May with the words "We are ABOUT to market a new supercharger"


The problem is this thread isn't about an axial flow supercharger. I've learned a lot about jet engines (still not sure how an engine that essentially works at a stagnate throttle position and stagnate RPM relates to the daily driven Renesis).

I just wish all the useless post, umm ... I mean unrelated, posts could be filtered out.

This thread is a random musing aeronautic engine love-fest and there isn't really any new info. Could we put the ramblings (including this one) in a seperate junk thread in the lounge?

Currently this thread isn't worth reading especially for someone new to it.

-Mr. Wigggles

Personally, I find this thread interesting and amusing. Better than post after post of - Well guys, you need to wait longer.

I'm not complaining about the wait or trying to pressure RP; if anything this banter keeps me a bit distracted from my FI pipe dreams.

Wow 56 pages!!

Just as a little bit of reference, so it was opened in May with the words "we are about to make a supercharger". So what? When an auto manuficaturer says "we are about to make a new car", it takes them a couple of years to see a working model. We are talking about 6 months. Would you have more faith in a product that you have seen progress through the design and testing phases and know that it works well on your engine because it was designed specifically for it, or would you rather trust a diffeent type of product that suddenly appeared on the market that you had no clue about that makes claims about power output? People are slow to believe here when it comes to new products but strangely enough they believe intake claims and other things.

Richard actually has the blower stages made for the prototypes. He is just waiting on an outside company to supply new spider gears for the unit. His were fine but by cutting them differently he can make the unit quieter. It is little details like this that make this unit really nice and not some rush job product for the unpatient. He is also contracted out to make pulleys and short throw shifters. The guy stays busy. On top of that, when he dyno tests one of these superchargers on a Renesis, it isn't like he goes down to the shop and puts his car on his own dyno. He doesn't. He doesn't have a engine/chassis dyno or an RX-8/Renesis. His schedule has to coincide with someone that has one and will let him do the testing. To make matters worse, his help in this area is a couple hours drive away from where he is at. Give him a break. That's alot of time to balance and alot of it is dependent on when others can fit him in. He is still finding time to work on these consistently and at a pace that still allows him to not sacrifice quality. Would you rather have him just throw out the model he has now without any more verified testing? I'm sure he could. This isn't a turbocharger. He isn't adapting something that is in the ballpark of your needs. He is designing something from square one that is ONLY for YOUR needs. This particualr unit won't work well on another engine. You should all feel proud.

Sic 'em RG.....I tell ya what, you take out the local naysayers, and I'll look after the foreigners..... :D

Sic 'em RG.....I tell ya what, you take out the local naysayers, and I'll look after the foreigners..... :D

I hope your not having a dig at me again. Please refer to my last but one post in this thread if you are, or PM me if you have the courage... [cluck cluck ... cluck] - (chicken noises)

He's saying "foreigners" because I am in the U.S. where most of the people in this thread are, and he is in Australia which is foreign to the U.S. You also just coincidentally happen to be "foreign" in this same regard.

Don't get so pissed off so easily. There's nothing chicken in sarcasm.

I can understand some people feel impatient at what they deem to be a lack of progress with regard to Richard's supercharger, but how many times do they have to have it explained to them that some things take time???? Richard said he was having problems with the ECU, the electronics will take a while to sort out, we knew that at the outset.

Some whingers in this thread have followed it since it's inceptions, and have read Richard's explanations as to why he posts so irregularly, yet still they whine about perceived "lack of progress" and "losing faith". If those who are carrying on had any interest in the project, they should realise they are doing themselves a great disservice by badmouthing the guy who is working his butt off to bring his forced induction solution to market. It seems to me these guys hope to be around to post "I told you so" should Richard pull the plug on the whole deal. How about some positive reinforcement if in fact you want this project to succeed?

The same moonunits who complain this thread is too long and that not enough new supercharger stuff is in it, "it's all about jets", should stop posting their ad nauseum bleats about it, as these just add to the post count!! Man, that's just shi##ing in your own nest! I've even defended Richard on another thread in the suggestions forum (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=44870) about the length of this thread.

Tokenbrit, I am not singling you out. This is addressed to all who feel this thread is too long, is off topic, or those who feel there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Gomez.

Grand Slams RG and Gomez. Lots of ppl are defending Richard against the unrealistic ideas of a handful of ppl. I would to thank Richard for doing what he is doing for OUR car. Naysayers go buy an "off the shelf" slapped together unit and the rest of us will wait for Richard to sell us his SC SPECIFICALLY designed for the 8. When we are grinning from ear to ear at the complete satisfaction we feel from a purpose built unit, the Naysayres will be crying.......

Grand Slams RG and Gomez. Lots of ppl are defending Richard against the unrealistic ideas of a handful of ppl. I would to thank Richard for doing what he is doing for OUR car. Naysayers go buy an "off the shelf" slapped together unit and the rest of us will wait for Richard to sell us his SC SPECIFICALLY designed for the 8. When we are grinning from ear to ear at the complete satisfaction we feel from a purpose built unit, the Naysayres will be crying.......

Personally there is nothing I want more then this to come to market. While I don't consider myself one of the naysayers, I do wonder sometimes if progress is being made. But I guess I'll just be patient.

Richard, when are you going to come to my house and install one of your superchargers on my SMII class 99 Miata. I gotta get this thing ready for next season :D I am only about 1 hour away from you.

I can understand some people feel impatient at what they deem to be a lack of progress with regard to Richard's supercharger, but how many times do they have to have it explained to them that some things take time???? Richard said he was having problems with the ECU, the electronics will take a while to sort out, we knew that at the outset.

Some whingers in this thread have followed it since it's inceptions, and have read Richard's explanations as to why he posts so irregularly, yet still they whine about perceived "lack of progress" and "losing faith". If those who are carrying on had any interest in the project, they should realise they are doing themselves a great disservice by badmouthing the guy who is working his butt off to bring his forced induction solution to market. It seems to me these guys hope to be around to post "I told you so" should Richard pull the plug on the whole deal. How about some positive reinforcement if in fact you want this project to succeed?

The same moonunits who complain this thread is too long and that not enough new supercharger stuff is in it, "it's all about jets", should stop posting their ad nauseum bleats about it, as these just add to the post count!! Man, that's just shi##ing in your own nest! I've even defended Richard on another thread in the suggestions forum (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=44870) about the length of this thread.

Tokenbrit, I am not singling you out. This is addressed to all who feel this thread is too long, is off topic, or those who feel there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Gomez.

For the record, I have defended both Richard, and the integrity of this thread on a couple of occassions earlier in this thread. I have a technical background, so I know these thing don't happen overnight. I (most recently) have just been expressing concerns. And yes, maybe I was a little harsh. But that's what's this forum is about isn't it? I don't know Richard, but some of my more respected members of this forum speak highly of him. That's good enough for me.
I've never wished him anything but the best of luck with this. I just get a little impatient sometimes...

Personally there is nothing I want more then this to come to market. While I don't consider myself one of the naysayers, I do wonder sometimes if progress is being made. But I guess I'll just be patient.

My thoughts exactly...

For the record, I have defended both Richard, and the integrity of this thread on a couple of occassions earlier in this thread. I have a technical background, so I know these thing don't happen overnight. I (most recently) have just been expressing concerns. And yes, maybe I was a little harsh. But that's what's this forum is about isn't it? I don't know Richard, but some of my more respected members of this forum speak highly of him. That's good enough for me.
I've never wished him anything but the best of luck with this. I just get a little impatient sometimes...

Okay then....Truce?

Okay then....Truce?

No worries :D ...

Please allow me to take this thread off topic for a second here.... :D

Now that the love fest is over, may I point out to you that Ponting and his mates are gonna cream you blokes when they come over and defend the Ashes this summer. And before you point out to me that Wilkinson and his queer buddies took home the Rugby World Cup, I should make it clear that I don't give a damn. Rugby is for pansies.

Gomez.

Please allow me to take this thread off topic for a second here.... :D

Now that the love fest is over, may I point out to you that Ponting and his mates are gonna cream you blokes when they come over and defend the Ashes this summer. And before you point out to me that Wilkinson and his queer buddies took home the Rugby World Cup, I should make it clear that I don't give a damn. Rugby is for pansies.

Gomez.

And cricket isn't for pansies? :rolleyes: :D But I've got to admit we're pretty crap at it :o ...

As for rugby, at least we play it like real men, and don't have to wear all the pads and gear our american friends do (even if they do call it football :rolleyes: ) :D .

You've got us beat on australian rules tho... That's just suicide....

The cricket guys also wear padding and what-you-call to protect the lunch box.
Cricket IS for pansies. They have breaks for tea and cookies in the afternoon.


Just kidding, I like cricket.

Backtracking a tad...

Better yet, they can run on Remy Martin VSOP...

Now THATS an engine with good taste :P

And cricket isn't for pansies? :rolleyes: :D But I've got to admit we're pretty crap at it :o ...

As for rugby, at least we play it like real men, and don't have to wear all the pads and gear our american friends do (even if they do call it football :rolleyes: ) :D .

You've got us beat on australian rules tho... That's just suicide....

Continuing the lounge theme...

American football players would kill U.K. rugby players. It would be an absolute war of attrition. I'm not sure if they could do a complete season before everyone in the league would be on the injured list; but there is no Ray Lewis in rugby. If he was forced to play rugby, he could level out some serious pain. I think we wouldn't mind showing who the real men are and who are just Cockney wankers.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. For the US reader, Cockney wankers are real mean - real stupid men.

Get it back on topic fellas!

Continuing the lounge theme...

American football players would kill U.K. rugby players. It would be an absolute war of attrition. I'm not sure if they could do a complete season before everyone in the league would be on the injured list; but there is no Ray Lewis in rugby. If he was forced to play rugby, he could level out some serious pain. I think we wouldn't mind showing who the real men are and who are just Cockney wankers.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. For the US reader, Cockney wankers are real mean - real stupid men.

Whatever you say mate :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) ....
(The Rest of the World - i.e. not the U.S. seems to think differently...)

Gee, that NEVER happens :rolleyes:

jds

Whatever you say mate :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) ....
(The Rest of the World - i.e. not the U.S. seems to think differently...)

Whatever you say mate :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) ....
(The Rest of the World - i.e. not the U.S. seems to think differently...)

You are wrong. Many US citizens (me being one of them) agree with The Rest of the World: US football players wouldn't stand a chance in Rugby. :P US Football is badminton compared to the likes of Rugby and Aussie Rules Football.

It depends on what sport you make the NFL players play. If they played rugby or soccer, they would run out of gas after 100 yds. At that point, the game would be over. When your cardiovascular is gone, doesn't matter how strong you are. Not only would the real rugby players run by them, they would also run right through them.

If the Brits are so tough and pound for pound so strong, why don't they have any good boxers?

I am not talking 400 lb linemen here. I am talking about well conditioned running backs and linebackers.

Also if the Brits are so tough, why don't they come to the NFL and make some real money?

-Mr. Wigggles

Hey, why my thread? People are bitching that it is too long and full of aerospace. Airplanes relate to high performance cars a whole lot more the ball players do. What part of a ballplayer will fit our cars? They don't even bolt together. We can't utilize their materials, mother nature is way ahead of us. The maintenence is too high on them, they eat all the time. You can't put them away and forget them till summer.

True, they do attract girls though.

We could erase page 57 without a single post of note being lost. Except Hymees.

Got any new updates RP?

1 football player could finance axial flow superchargers for all of us if he was so inclined...

Or maybe Oprah will invite all us RX8 nuts onto her show and shock us with free FI :p

Reasons why athletes are worse than axial flow superchargers:

People pay for athletes and they charge the stands and start fights.
They complain that they can't feed their families on a measely $12 million a year.
They still show less talent than your typical street kid who plays for the fun of it and not the money.
They show off in their private lives but can't perform at their jobs.
They think a Ferrari would look better riding on 20 inch spinners and painted gold with a Superman symbol embroidered in to the seats.
No matter who you have on your team, how much you pay him, or how good he thinks he is, he still sucks.

Reasons why an axial flow supercharger is better than athletes:

You pay for performance and you get it.
It is cheaper.
It is more go and less show. (It is pretty though!)
It doesn't whine as much. (play with that one!)

The number 1 reason why an axial flow supercharger is better than athletes:

This is an axial flow supercharger thread and not a thread about everyones pathetic overpaid sports stars!!!

Hear hear!

My terminology may be off, but would it be possible to fabricate transparent manifolds to and/or from the AF unit in an 8?

Rotarygod brought up an interesting point... the unit does look nice. I was just wondering if maybe acrylic or lexan or anything transparent used on the intake side of the supercharger would allow viewing of the blades in motion in addition to better views of the overall unit. or maybe just that portion that isnt obstructed by the belt.

I think anything that is transparent will not be strong enough to work as the supercharger body. I don't see acrylic working and we definitely don't want glass. It's got to be pretty strong and thetolerances have to be good. The supercharger body itself isn't just one large casing that everything is installed in. Each stage is a seperate piece that is bolted together. The construction is much the same as the rotary engine itself. Several plates with bolts holding the whole length together.

I'm in for one.

Hi Guys,
Sort of lost track of the thread, can someone give a brief update of where the project is at the moment and how long until completion, any testing/dyno etc yet?

I'm in for one.

Aren't we all :D ...

any updates ?????

I talk to Richard fairly often. He's slow at typing so I'll update you as I get relevant info. He'll still get on here from time to time though. He got in the new gear set this week. The old ones were cut differently and were noisy. The new ones while probably not any better from a performance standpoint, are quieter. This took time to get because they were not machined in house. This is just one small detail that takes time to do and isn't required to work good, but will end up giving you a better final product. It is small details like this that will make everyone's patience pay off in the end. The gears are not just a simple swap. He has to do some remachining on one part to make them fit. The new revision will be bigger and stronger as well.

He may be taking a while to do these, but he's doing them properly. Even after the new gear sets are installed and the unit completed, it still has to go back for more testing. There is no guessing that you got it right. A little more ecu playing is in order. He needs to know whether or not the blower is working as it should or if the ecu is shortchanging him.

After this part is verified, then he needs to develop a final mounting bracket and kit. Once these details are worked out and a unit has been tested and driven on a car, only then is it going to be ready to go into production. Don't expect to be able to go to your local parts supplier and purchase one of these. Distribution is a detail that isn't worked out yet but it will be limited. It's a special order kit. I know alot of people are impatient and want something right now. For those people there will always be alternatives. For those who are patient, you won't be disappointed.

Don't think all of this will take place in the next month. You may not see a finished project unit the summer. This isn't some turbo that you can just order off the shelf and take home, fabricate some piping and brackets and then sell. That's easy compared to this. Remember, Richard's got alot on his plate. He does more than just design RX-8 superchargers. He has a business to run and an income to make. This is just a part of it. He is the only person losing time and money at this point as well and he's doing it for a fairly small market. Compare the RX-8 market potentail to the LS1, Mustang, or Honda crowd and I'm surprised he chose these cars at all. Others only have patience to lose. Just hang on guys. It's coming.

Here are the pieces that needed changing. This is a repost from page 11 of this thread for all of you that can't find it.

Thank's RG, Notice how you use the written word to communicate better then I do? Thats because you were paying attention in school, while Hymee and myself were sneeking peeks at car mags stashed inside our textbooks.

Let that be a lesson to all of you that are still in school or plan on going back. The damn english classes are also of value not just the sciences.

I was sneeking peeks of mags in my textbooks too. They just weren't car mags! :D

Pervert

lol

I see that there are several young men writing in this "thread" with a wealth of knowledge about the R8. My question being will the supercharger be able to be used on an automatic 8? I ask this question everytime I see a thread about more power and am usually told "later" or "no". I'm not complaining becaue I fell in love with the handling of the vehicle. It sure could would be nice to have a little more umpth at the low end and my past experience with superchargers was that they are at their best then (not much experience, had a blown Hemi Cuda and my old jet boat had a blower but I did not work on them). Would one of you young men be able to tell me if it will work?

Phil,

The axial supercharger or any other supercharger or turbo-charger for that matter will physically connect and provide increased airflow to your automatic RX-8. The problem comes in when you start talking about the proper fuel air schedules. If the ECU mods that are made for the axial flow supercharger are developed for the MT6... then they will not work for the AT because of the differences in the intake system and associated fuel schedules.

However, with the same physical axial flow supercharger hardware, it would be possible to develop fuel schedules for the AT. If and when that happens, the axial flow supercharger design could be used on an AT RX-8. Bottom line - the sticking point is not the hardware... it's developing the correct fuel schedules and being able to convince the RX-8 computer that everything is still ok.

My question being will the supercharger be able to be used on an automatic 8? Would one of you young men be able to tell me if it will work?

Short answer: Yes. Yes.

Not sure what you mean by young, I think a lot of the people contributing technical information on this forum are in their 30s or older. I don't know Fred's age but he is certainly older than me :D I think Richard Paul is a little older too since he sometimes talks about supercharging cars back before I was born with his racing muscle cars etc.

I am 28. Turbine and Richard are definitely older than me! :D I met Turbine at Sevenstock. He's one smart but very tall guy! I definitely bow to alot of his knowledge.

I don't know if I have met Turbine or not, I did meet one or two really tall people at Seven Stock though. Unless you consider late 20's to 30's young, I am probably one of the few if only young people (20) that contribute somewhat at least correct technical information on this forum.

It is a sad, sad, thing............I'm to old for Kari.

Note the last quote in my signiture. That man had the best way with words.

Kari is a cradlerobber though, shes older than me :D

I am not a man, then again no one bows to my knowledge.

Phil@desertboilers.com: You might try reading this thread by Rotarygod, http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=20148 as it shares some information about the differences between the automatic and manual engines of the RX-8.

Don't get discouraged though because you can still add a little boost to your 4 port motor. If you just want a bit more oomph from low RPMs on up, eventually you will probably be able to find a supercharger kit for the automatic RX-8 using some kind of positive displacement supercharger. Don't expect huge power gains but you will be able to notice a considerable improvement. It will however take some time before a bolt on kit appears on market.

Fine then Ice, buy the woman a house and you go live in your car. ;)

Fine then Ice, buy the woman a house and you go live in your car.


that's what i have said to him a couple of times already. and it better be a really nice house:)

I'm posting this pic for Richard since he's having technical difficulties. This pic is of new gears. Direct all questions to Richard ;)

Cheers, the new gears are here. Gonna run them for a real long time on the bench this week. Tests are for noise and endurance.

Hmmm, when I visited I thought you were going for a helical cut planetary gear set?

Or did you just end up with a quieter profile?

Cheers,
Hymee.

I've been reading this thread ever since it had only one page. Kinda lost track for a little bit because of work but I'm glad to see that Mr. Paul hasn't given up. Thanks for doing everything with quality in mind. I'll be waiting for the finished product and hopefully ill be able to get my hands on a kit.

Man that Hymee is sharp. Don't ever let him in your shop. I'm still looking for my book. :D (oh, now I get it) Right you are but R+D is a liquid thing, as you know. We consulted with a big company in Chicago and they recomended this new design. Since I know very little about gears I felt he was a better bet. Thus the gears you see. The difference is suttle, you can't tell in a picture.

We shall know in a few days.

Smiles? what the hell are smiles? I'm not aware of how they work or how to work them. Is this some underground secret on how to communicate??
I've seen them and some are cute but I thought that is all they were for.

I don't have an Rx8 Yet, and Probably won't buy one until a FI kit comes out. I'll be buying mine in July, or I'll be buying a MS6.

If your kit comes out at 3 grand and produces 50-70 bhp, then You can definately count me in.

Unfortunately it sounds like you are going to have to bump the price up 1 grand to manage the ECU.

Did you get any help in this area from the Ford tech mentioned earlier, who could crack the ECU and remap it (Suposedly.)

I'm posting this pic for Richard since he's having technical difficulties. This pic is of new gears. Direct all questions to Richard ;)

When I was whinging, all I wanted was progress. This is progress. I'm now a happy chapie. :D
When will it all be put togeather and tested??...

how can u make 4 stages of compression without stators between the stages? that would not create a straight airflow pattern. also what would happen if one of those blades liberated and FOD-ed out the compressor? also, how do you measure the RPM band on a rotating compressor like that? i would be worried about overspeed at higher RPM's when u have stages of blades rotating.

how can u make 4 stages of compression without stators between the stages? that would not create a straight airflow pattern. also what would happen if one of those blades liberated and FOD-ed out the compressor? also, how do you measure the RPM band on a rotating compressor like that? i would be worried about overspeed at higher RPM's when u have stages of blades rotating.


Check out his pics, he has Stators.

As for Blades Liberating, he indicated that the Lathom blower was sold some 1000 times, and he only knows of the blades comming lose on one of them that was struck on the side, by a falling tool. The blades passed through the engine, with no harm.

He is using unobtanium allow, which is apprently 400% stronger than needed for this application, and thus very reliable and sturdy.

He is using unobtanium allow, which is apprently 400% stronger than needed for this application, and thus very reliable and sturdy.

That stuff is extremely rare... I wish I could get my hands on some of that... :D

Since the pics are hard to find, here they are again:

Hey guys, I fell asleep around page 30! .... sorry!

I know that this is still in the test phase, but are there any other updates... i.e. installed application, or compatibility testing?

Thanks!

Great work so far R.P.!!

Interesting Pictures!

The only installation application for this particular unit is the Renesis engine. Unlike other companies that build turbos or supercahrgers and you pick the one that works best for your engine, this one is being designed slely for the airflow needs of the Renesis. No guess work.

He is retrofitting new planetary gears and is testing them currently. The blower unit is built. After he tests for gear durability and noise then he needs to get back testing again on an engine. So forth and so on. He is doing it the proper way. It just takes time.

Rotarygod, those pictures you posted are of the 5 stage blower correct? I might have missed something but didn't Richard say that he changed it to a 4 stage blower design for flow reasons? There's a good chance I'm wrong, so anyone feel free to let me know.

4 stage is the current config as far as I remember.

I think this should be a clearification for everyone.
It is by strong belief that the Tissue box is not to show a size comparison.
It is intended to clean up any mess that might have been created from seeing an FI solution for the RX8.
I also believe they are suggesting you bring one with you in the car after getting it installed.
Serious side effects can occur after pressing the gas pedal.

I think this should be a clearification for everyone.
It is by strong belief that the Tissue box is not to show a size comparison.
It is intended to clean up any mess that might have been created from seeing an FI solution for the RX8.
I also believe they are suggesting you bring one with you in the car after getting it installed.
Serious side effects can occur after pressing the gas pedal.

Hell, even looking at that polished beauty might lead to a mess :D

Check out his pics, he has Stators.

As for Blades Liberating, he indicated that the Lathom blower was sold some 1000 times, and he only knows of the blades comming lose on one of them that was struck on the side, by a falling tool. The blades passed through the engine, with no harm.

He is using unobtanium allow, which is apprently 400% stronger than needed for this application, and thus very reliable and sturdy.


the pics a bit small and i cant see the stators but if u say they are on there then cool.

its kinda hard to read through 60 pages of chat :)

Since the pics are hard to find, here they are again:


ah there are the stators! the first couple pics early in the thread didnt have those shots! good thing u reposted em

Let me help the Q/A along. We have built both 4 and 5 stage units. The production unit will be four, i think. The 5 stage makes more pressure then you can use in the stock configuration. There is no need have the extra stage coming along for the ride.
There are stators for each rotor as you can see in the pictures posted by rotarygod.

The pressure produced by this many stages may seem low to those use to numbers produced by modern gas turbine powerplants. The reason for this is the "lift" produced by
the blade design. Modern jet engines use between 15 and 30 stages, producing 200 to 400 psi. My numbers may be a little general I've not studied these things in awhile. If you want to get up to the miniute spot on numbers ask our resident expert Turbine-pwr.
Anyway they make pressures per stage based on a maximized design that has little off design performance. If we used that design we could get away with two stages but it would only work in a small rpm band.

This is the basis for all my research in the past. No one else has had a need for this kind of performance from a AF compressor. The price that we pay is more then would be worth it in other applications. The price being efficency loss. But don't fret we have a long way to go between this style compressor and the others. example: I have usually produced compressors with 85% eff while a good jet engine will produce 94%+.

I'm still 20% higher then the next guy. Those numbers aren't off the wall, if you think that jet engines are getting close to perpetual motion you have no idea how hard they try. I think the new RR has 32 stages over 300 psi and in the high 90's eff wise. I know the B-1 has 390 psi but I have no knowlage of other numbers as the last I read it was still unreleased gov info.

So the bottom line is that I use a design that has a broad lift range. Think about it like trying to get a C-130 off the ground with f-18 wings. Then try and go near sonic with the C-130 wing. You can see the need for compromise in the design. We can only do this because we don't fall out of the sky if we cross a line somewhere. (Don't attack me on this explaination Turbine, I'm generalizing to make it clear to the avarage reader.)

The fact that both size blowers are being tested is your assurance that the right compressor will be supplied in the production kit. On top of that the stages are expensive, adding some costs.

Hope I got everone, Richard

Ok I did forget one thing. The blade structure is one of the first things analized when the design is started. No sense building it if it fails. This design has a saftey factor of 4 as posted by someone already. There is very little work being done by a single blade. That's why there are several hundred of them. The pressure on the blade is only that which is being made by the lift of that stage. Times the area of the blade itself. In this case it's only a couple of ounces.

Richard Everytime I think I have convinced myself to by an MS6, you post something and make me think how much I will hate myself for missing out on this beast you are creating for the RX8

I hope you realize how excited you have us here.

Hurry up and finish it so we can start talking you into making a Transmission for the RX8, that can handle more HP.

a C17 uses 4 Pratt & Whitney F117-100 jet engines with 17 stages of compression. 5 stages of fan and 12 stages of core. it then goes through 5 stages of turbine on its way out the door.

an F15 will use either a G.E. or P&W jet engine. The ones i worked on were the PW F100-100/220/220E/229 style motors. they have 13 stages of compression. 3 stages are fan and the rest is core. it then goes through 4 stages of turbine on its way out through the augmentor.

in the end, jet engines are very efficient for what they do and the only way to break them hard is to throw a wrench into the fan (or ingest a bird).

to learn how a jet engine works, watch this:
http://www.rolls-royce.com/education/schools/journey/flash.html

i do have a quick question for you! what do you use to rotate the blades when the car starts up? on jet engines, the gearbox will initially rotate the jet engine until it is up to self sustaining RPM's. will there be enough airflow through the tube to rotate 4 stages of blades?

It's a compressor, not a turbine....no fuel will be added into the airflow. It will be belt driven off the accessory belt, I imagine.

There is no combuster in there....!

As gomez says, it's hooked to the crankshaft. If the crank turns so does the compressor. The thing that regulates the output is the inlet density. If the TB is closed then the rotor is doing almost no work in a fractional vacuum.

Okay in order to not look stupid I will post this...


:cool:

As gomez says, it's hooked to the crankshaft.....
The E shaft, Richard, the E shaft.... :)

Gomez you sly dog, I saw that post!

Just added a quote.... :)

Okay in order to not look stupid I will post this...


:cool:
Hahaha, caught you in your post deleting frenzy... :)

Sorry that I am a little slow at getting back to thank all of you for your response to my AT - Supercharger question. Sorry Kari I did not mean to slight you as I tend to forget that young ladies also are interested in fast exotic cars as I also tend to forget that computers now run cars.

As far as young goes, my youngest child is 48 so I guess that anyone under 50 is young.

I'm not discouraged and will continue to follow this Thread to see the final outcome. Who knows strange things happen, Richard Paul may find that he can only make his work on a AT.

As gomez says, it's hooked to the crankshaft. If the crank turns so does the compressor. The thing that regulates the output is the inlet density. If the TB is closed then the rotor is doing almost no work in a fractional vacuume.


what would make this different from a supercharger output? if this unit produces 6psi of pressure, would that equate to the same power output as a turbo or supercharger at the same psi rating? if so, would it be cheaper to buy this than a turbo/supercharger?

The boost curve, the weight and size, and the efficiency.

Richard,

You got suckered into that one. Got to roll with those punchs. E-shaft versus crankshaft. It's subtle how those words slip off the tongue.

Not to poke too much fun but most gas turbine designs are trying to get stage counts down in recent designs (they cost too much money to make). However, at the same time, they are trying to push up pressure ratios and improve efficiencies. I think you may have been a bit generous in your claims on efficiency for most gas turbine compressor designs. In most cases it is a battle to get much above polytropic compressor efficiencies above 92%. As you point out, most gas turbines operate between 50-60% and 100% gas generator speeds instead of the 10-to-100% speed that you are designing for. Obviously, the extended range of operation will require special care.

One of the items I'm most interested in is the boost profile versus speed. In order to make a reasonable amount of power/torque at low to mid range engine speeds, you will need to be able to get the supercharger speeds up quickly. Have you considered outlandish ideas like a form of constant velocity drive to keep the supercharger speed up at low speeds???

For the individual that indicated that a broken blade from a axial flow super charger wouldn't cause some additional damage as it passed down stream. I'm sorry but that is extremely unlikely. Anything that travels through one of these engines that shouldn't is going to make hardware very unhappy. However, Richard has indicated that he has designed this to minimize the likelihood that you will eat these parts. Just don't leave loose parts/tools in front of this beast. They make very good vacuum cleaners

Don't forget COOL Factor, SOUND, Installability, Durability, did I mention Cool Factor? :cool:

Nice to hear from Turbine again. Well I said I have been out of touch on modern trends in the real world. I kinda stay here in my own bat cave.

As to my curve we still have to finalize the production version. Also my test bench isn't the most up to date equiped. Getting data to the inth degree isn't available.
But I think as on the V-8 units we will pass the engine output below half speed when limited to the same top Pr. Then give almost twice the final additional power. I have to get that test sheet scaned in.

I think that the post addressing failed blading was a misunderstanding from something I said. While I stated the saftey factor for failure they may have thought that to mean something else. What I said on another post was to the effect of when we did fail one the blades went through without major damage. What happened on that one is a lot of blades went all the way through the engine but a couple stuck under the valves. It only took pulling the heads and fixing those two valves. The blower?? Oh yes it was of course was scrap. So just don't drop a 10-32 nut into the intake.

What happened to the nut?? Don't know, it never showed up again.

Then these new units are cut from billet while the old ones were investment cast. The new ones will be more mallable. It will still ruin the compressor section if you eat something like a nut but it may not loose the blades. Then again you may not have the luck of the nut going right through. That one may be once in a liftime.

Now that I think about the rotary has a better chance in these cases. Still it is not a negative compared to other blowers because they can't eat things any better. Lets see, the centrifugal might have the best chance, the screw the least on a par with the roots. Just try not to do it.

About that CVT, at one time ZF in Germany experimented with such an item of a size we could use. I never got into direct talks with them but there was some flirting. Problem was it costs as much or more then the blower itself. It would be nice to make that thing computer controled for speed rather than constant. It would be the final answer if we could do it that way.

The ECU could actually control the power output on demand. Nah, life will never be that good.

RP, when you mentioned that the 5-stage makes more power than can be used in stock configuration, was this statement the result of specific problems with the "host" car?

If so, which components were the "weakest link", and how?

If not, did you mean that upgrades would be needed, like maybe an intercooler?

Also what kinds of obstacles are there towards developing a cvt-afs if cost were not a factor?

There is no simple answer to your question. What keeps the boost down is several things, among them heat and fuel system headroom. It seems that Mazda gave the RX 8 a less then optimum cat. There are better cats that can take the higher temp but they cost more and in normal condition the one supplied works fine, so it would have been a extra expense not needed.

For the few owners who need the higher temp cat they figure they can take care of themselves. Every degree of temp that goes in carries all the way through. So if they only have a 150 degree saftey factor then that is a limit to your added intake temp. Now I'm not saying that number is what we are talking about I only said that to throw out a number.

Next you need to have so many extra lbs of fuel for the extra air. It is unlikely that there is more then 25% extra capacity in the system. There are some tricks to play here but they don't allow much.

What fails is not just a single thing and I personaly was not one who failed an engine. I only hear about these things. While I do have some excelent input here it isn't something that I am free to disclose.

The intercooler may solve some problem but not the others. In my case I hope to go without the intercooler and all it's negatives.

It is going to take awhile for FI to balance out on these engines. Everyone is trying their own path and it will get done. The longer the car is out there the more time will be put into it. I think it will be a long time and very expensive to build a very high HP 8.

We hear about 275 HP from some tuners and I can see them hitting the fuel limit at that point. So that sounds honest. The ones that are saying 300 or more may be optimistic. The ones saying 300+ at the wheels.....what can I say.

It's just going to take time and money to get the answers.

As to the gearbox, it would be a good start to see what ZF did with it. They've done the R+D so who knows.

Richard,

The folks claiming higher numbers are including fuel system updates in their (as of yet theoretical) packages... this may explain that a little better

gotta be careful with airflow patterns on these things. if u have a nicked blade that is not blended right (nicked for any reason, like maybe during installation), you could cause a stress fracture and the blade could crack and liberate. i have seen this happen on real jet engines before. will the assembly come as one unit so the user will not have to assemble the blade assembly? they will just have to bolt and go?

will the assembly come as one unit so the user will not have to assemble the blade assembly? they will just have to bolt and go?

Hahaha, now that would be an interesting jigsaw. I'd love to see Richard warranty that :) . I'm sure the finished item will be shipped in one piece....and after reading this, it will probably come assembled with anti-tamper bolts!!

Gomez.

Even with the jigs and fixtures I have built it is hard for me to assemble them. I shouldn't say hard jusr very carfully. Every thing is of very tight tolerance. That you know. Since this is a high speed machine everything must be perfectly balanced so no "nicking" is allowed.
Since everything is CNC machined from billet then the only thing that can go wrong is density distribution. This has been a problem with some imported aluminum that others have seen on flywheels.

We only use USA produced certified aircraft grade stock. We insist on certs with every batch of aluminum that we buy.

It is only called a kit because of the other componants that need be supplied to install it.
You can look back at the first few pages of this thread for pictures of completed compressors. Along with pics of internal parts.

So, no you don't have to assemble it. I'll do it for you. And as Gomez hints to the bolts are sealed so I can tell if you play erector set with it. I would like to find an anti tamper bolt that couldn't be fooled. It's just that everytime I have come across one I think it my duty to open it.

the Waterworks Board here in Birmingham, uses a bolt, that the head twists off of, thats pretty tough to get around, if you ask me.

I installed a phone system, and network at Birmingham Fasteners, the company that makes these, they opperate machines made back in the 30's that there are only like 5 or 6 left in the world, and they seem to be the only source of these bolts.

They are much too large for your application, but I'm sure that somewhere someone makes one smaller. The manufacture of them is a press mechanism, with large coils of metal, that are fed into a huge piston driven press, that pinches them off and presses them into shape.

The guys that operate these machines always seem to be missing a few fingers. :o

Yes, I'm aware of those type bolts but you can't disassemble the unit for service with that. It requires you to drill the remaining peice out. This isn't practical here. In practice we usually wind up assembling and disassembling these things a couple of times before they are finalized. The rotor must be built up by itself then balanced, disassembled and built up again with it's stator.

The stator must be qualified for axial clearences with the volutes and seals, then reassembled with the rotor.

During all these operations the torque of the actual fastner to be used must be at final spec. Fun huh??

Richard,
As far as I understood it, the axial flow compressor has a higher peak efficiency than a twin screw compressor.
Couldn't you therefore build an industrial compressor that requires less energy? Something like this: http://www.kaeser.com/Products_and_Solutions/default.asp
In order to reach 100 psi you'd need many more stages but you could also reduce the diameter of the axial flow compressor, since the air consumption is not quite as high as that of an engine. Or would an axial flow industrial air compressor simply be too expensive?

Your last sentence is the answer. The diameter is needed for the blade speed.

Yes, I'm aware of those type bolts but you can't disassemble the unit for service with that. It requires you to drill the remaining peice out. This isn't practical here. In practice we usually wind up assembling and disassembling these things a couple of times before they are finalized. The rotor must be built up by itself then balanced, disassembled and built up again with it's stator.

The stator must be qualified for axial clearences with the volutes and seals, then reassembled with the rotor.

During all these operations the torque of the actual fastner to be used must be at final spec. Fun huh??
Do you really need it to be temper proof (for safety reasons) or just that tempering would invalidate the warranty?

F.

Both

RP,

You could easily have a seperate "mock-up" set of bolts for the assembly stages, and use the tamper-proofs for the final yes?

Has Jerry been able to help you?

The tolerances are such that if it was taken apart by the owner and sent back to Richard for repair, he could tell what happened. He'd know pretty fast if the damae was from failure or tampering. The damage would be different. Remember, like the rotary engine, this unit comes apart in stages. If someone tampered with it, they'll probably damage only certain parts rather then a giant failure.

So, is it ready and installed in my car yet?

:D :D :D

I wonder what it Sounds like?

I would imagine something like a really quiet jet engine, maybe without much of the high pitched whine and more of a whoosh.

Maybe it sounds like it sucks. (but in a good way)

So, RP...at this stage in the game, do you have an established timeframe in terms of when you feel this will be ready for production? Another 6 months? 3? 12? Just wondering...I really like the uniqueness of your product, but I'm young and impatient...may end up getting the first FI kit released.

I remember you saying that you are testing it. i dont care much when its gonna be done but man WOULD I LOVE AUDIO!!!!! please can some 1 more tech inclined tape record this and upload it. omg i would love that!!!

There is NOTHING yet built to record.
Got it?

And you're concerned about what a supercharger SOUNDS like?

The only sound I could record would be on the test bench. You would get the sound of rushing air above all else. You can hear a jet in the background I guess if you listened for it but the air is all I hear. So until it is in a car your request is unanswerable.

We are looking to buy a car right now. So when we get one we will install a SC and proceed to tune it. If I had to guess it would probably be March before it is ready for real road testing and CAFE inspection. Then if we get the exemption it will be sold.
How long it takes to get the exemption is something I don't know. Anyway it will take some time to get the production line rolling. We can do that while we wait for the Gov.

So, RP...at this stage in the game, do you have an established timeframe in terms of when you feel this will be ready for production? Another 6 months? 3? 12? Just wondering...I really like the uniqueness of your product, but I'm young and impatient...may end up getting the first FI kit released.

not a good idea, if he misses his deadline everyone the whole forum would go 5150.

I wasn't looking for a deadline...just a general timeline of how he thought things would role out.

If I had to guess it would probably be March before it is ready for real road testing and CAFE inspection. Then if we get the exemption it will be sold.
How long it takes to get the exemption is something I don't know.

Exactly what I was looking for...thanks very much RP.

Ya know, if I were mazda I would be looking to purchase these sc's from RP for the mazdaspeed version . . . keep the car entirely unique . . . but that is just me ;)

Within the next 3 years Richard plans to have this out.

Keep it up Ice and that Miata will stay without. Then Kari will cut you off, and you will be as humble as a school boy.

Within the next 3 years Richard plans to have this out.

takes a lot of nerve to say something like that... especially since Richard doesn't have a test car. He's made a lot of strides in building this thing from the ground up and not with off the shelf parts like most companies.. show a little support, it only makes it better for all of us

Within the next 3 years Richard plans to have this out.
Almost as soon as SSR, PTP, and all the other companies working on forced induction systems for the past year with no finished product. None of them is actually designing and building the turbo itself either. They are just fabbing up parts and using what is already available.

Richard, you need a 3 letter initial name for your setup too! That seems to be the trend. 3 letters is cool apparently. I forgot STS. How about RPS (Richard Paul Systems), or AFE (Axial Flow Engineering)? The last one might work!

My favorite non 3 letter abbreviation would be the (A)xialflow richard (P)aul (E)ngineered (S)uperc(H)arged (I)nduction (T)urbine or APESHIT for short!

My favorite non 3 letter abbreviation would be the (A)xialflow richard (P)aul (E)ngineered (S)uperc(H)arged (I)nduction (T)urbine or APESHIT for short!

That is the funniest thing I've heard in weeks
:D

Almost as soon as SSR, PTP, and all the other companies working on forced induction systems for the past year with no finished product. None of them is actually designing and building the turbo itself either. They are just fabbing up parts and using what is already available.

Richard, you need a 3 letter initial name for your setup too! That seems to be the trend. 3 letters is cool apparently. I forgot STS. How about RPS (Richard Paul Systems), or AFE (Axial Flow Engineering)? The last one might work!

My favorite non 3 letter abbreviation would be the (A)xialflow richard (P)aul (E)ngineered (S)uperc(H)arged (I)nduction (T)urbine or APESHIT for short!
You are a sick sick man.

How about:
Frictionless Axialflow Superchaging Technology (FAST)

I dont think it's really frictionless.. I just needed something to use for F rather than "Fuckinawesome"

Wait..

Fuckin Awesome Supercharging Technology.

There we go. I'm sure that'll please the rice kiddos.

Gee RG, you could write those kinda titles for the Feds.
Think I could still use that one in polite company? :rolleyes:

Ajax is right on for the ricers. I'd sell it just so they could have the sticker. Hell with that I'll just sell stickers.

OMG Ice, now I know why you're on the rag.
Don't worry Kari, just have to brush my teeth and shave, I'm on my way.

I didn't say when within the next three years :D

Richard Paul...

Not trying to be a pain here.. But seems like your solution would not suffer from the ECU problems most have. And it seems like you had a working prototype a few months after your first post back in May. Since then that unit has had a barage of pics taken of it and a bunch of noise tests and RPM tests...
So can I ask (Without reading all 900 posts on this thred) why it has taken sooo long and still no working pre-production sample yet?

Your posts make it sound like plug it in line and let it rip (short of some fuel delivery tweaks).

Thanks..

8, We are looking for a car to buy right now. There are some packaging problems that need solving. I still havn't decided if the air will go in the front or rear. There are some real funny things going on with the MAF thingie. My thought is that there must be so much un turbulated air going into this thing then some non bent duct after it. That by itself is going to be a major engineering project.

PLEEEEZZE God give me a Weber and a distributor. Then I'd have you on the road in a month.

But seems like your solution would not suffer from the ECU problems most have.

I would be interested to hear you reasoning for this?

Cheers,
Hymee.

Richard Paul...

Not trying to be a pain here.. But seems like your solution would not suffer from the ECU problems most have. And it seems like you had a working prototype a few months after your first post back in May. Since then that unit has had a barage of pics taken of it and a bunch of noise tests and RPM tests...
So can I ask (Without reading all 900 posts on this thred) why it has taken sooo long and still no working pre-production sample yet?

Your posts make it sound like plug it in line and let it rip (short of some fuel delivery tweaks).

Thanks..
Because he's a perfectionist and rightly so. This isn't something that has had 50 years in development for auto's like the turbo or supercharger. It's the first of its kind to be implemented in this fashion and for those of us who develop anything, the rule is get it right the first time because it's much more expensive to make changes down the road.

Richard also has a business to run and currently this supercharger (because it is in development) is not bringing in cash to pay the bills. He has other work to do at the same time.

Patience..

I would be interested to hear you reasoning for this?

Cheers,
Hymee.
Agreed. Anything that gives the engine more air than it is expecting is going to cause ECU issues. Guitarjunkie and Snoochie are seeing exactly that by just porting the engine.

[QUOTE=8_is_enuf]Richard Paul...

(short of some fuel delivery tweaks).

Are you British? Because this is an understatment of biblical proportion.

Not British.. and not necissarily using your words, but what I (thought) I gathered from some of your earlier posts is that it would fall in line behind the MAF sensor, that many of the issues others have experienced would not occur with this system. You would have to either beef up the rail or lower the boost. So far - neither have happened.

Again -- I have no idea what it takes to accomplish this -- I can only say that you made your design sound so much better because it was simple to deploy... I thought - this one could actually work and we'll likely see it work soon.

Just wondering what I missed..

(Guys -- Really -- Don't take this as me being an A-hole-- I really am just curious... This solution seemed so simplistic... Maybe I read it wrong..)

He originally started the thread saying he was about to design a system for the RX-8. Unlike many other systems that have to fabricated, he actually is designing a system for the Renesis rotary engine and not some generic bolt on piece. The original pictures that were posted were not of the RX-8 unit but rather of one for the 1.8 liter Honda engines. He did post some early pictures of the new unit but it is only just now getting finalized from a build standpoint. Now he needs a car to test it on and he doesn't have one. So far all of his testing has been through 3rd parties. when you use other people's things, you need to be accomodating to their schedules. It would help things along if they were in the same city too. Richard also has been making short throw shifters and other daily machining business which is what currently pays the bills. Up to this point, the supercharger has not.

As has been pointed out, there are some ecu issues to resolve. Unfortunately without a car in his possession, this is very difficult. Final orientation of the blower case itself is also still in question. The current prototype unit places the inlet at the rear which will make a 180 degree bend necessary for the intake. This takes up alot of space and needs to be dealt with as well. The other option he is playing with is to have a front inlet with a rear outlet. Very early in the thread he had a picture of a V-8 mounted supercharger with the inlet in the front. This is the alternative method. The issue will be can he get the needed inlet area in this location or will it be a restriction? This method, if possible, would make mounting in the car and piping much easier. Speaking of mounting, he hasn't even workied on that part yet. He obviously needs a car for that. Once he determines the layout and works out how it will mount, then he needs to actually do the on car testing. What if he gets all the ecu issues resolved and tuned but finds the engine flows differently than what he thought? If this happens, the unit itself gets a redesign. Hopefully he got it right though.

All of this takes time. If he had a car instead of relying on others for testing, he could have it done much faster. Think of this as watching a new car or some other piece of engineering being born from day one. That's what this is. By comparison, every other system being worked on out there is just assembling parts. This is inventing the parts before they are assembled. Regardless, this system isn't taking an appreciable amount of time longer than any of the other systems out there. Sometimes when you want to do something right, it takes a long time. Rest assured when this is done, it will be correct.

Long story short... He is in need of his own car.. And this is a side project.... But thanks for the long story...

Yes, But check out my shifter. on it's own thread. It's going into production now. And new today is the shift knob which everyone is going to love. I know they are not hi tech but that is the point, the SC is very high tech and takes alot of energy.

Nice knob, richard :b

hey Richard? have you given a thought to calling upon Jim Mederer at Racing Beat? i believe they still have their Renesis engine on their engine dyno. i read somewhere they will be taking it off soon to prep for a different project but maybe you could get some dyno time in on that engine before they do? just a thought......

i bet Jim would love to see your AFS

This ia an F-18 going sonic. I bring this to you so you can visualize the power of the pressure wave when breaking the sound barrier. This is something you should know not just with my SC but any rotating machine. If you go even close to 1100 Ft/sec. Turbos may not get there because they feel the resistance and are not locked to the engine. But other blowers that are belt driven could get there if you don't follow the builders guidlines.

BTW this has to be a one in a million lucky shot by the photog. Where the hell was he standing??

holy shitzer, that had to hurt

i bet Jim would love to see your AFS
charlie, i really think that is inappropriate as I don't know Jim, but I'm pretty sure richard likes wom... oh.. you said aFs.. my bad..

charlie, i really think that is inappropriate as I don't know Jim, but I'm pretty sure richard likes wom... oh.. you said aFs.. my bad..


Good one.......




:rolleyes:

Good one.......




:rolleyes:
...

i know.. it was lame... i'm sorry..

I have seen video of a jet transonic that was 100ft off the water. In the right light as a passanger jet approaches M.80 or more, you can see a shock wave develouping on top of the wing. This also occures in the blades of a turbo as well as a prop plane. Next time you are at an airport you may notice some small planes, ie Cessna 210, have a loud raspy sound. that is actually the prop tip going supersonic. these proptips or turbine blades loose efficency in this state. therefor the idea is to keep them subsonic.

John

When you "crack" a buggy whip or bull whip what is it that makes the noise?
You know, like when you're training a lion, or your girlfriend.


http://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_bounce.gif Kidues to Hymee

the crack is actually a sonic boom caused by either :

a. the tip of the whip acclerating to a speed greater than the speed of sound
or
b. the tip of the whip displacing air at a speed greater than the speed of sound

Well I admit I didn't think anyone would get that.
zoom44 you win, a date with Brittney Spears. If your older, Bo Dereck.

but which is actually correct? i have known this little fact(first man made object to breach the speed of sound) for a long time but i really dont know which of a or b is correct or if both are. and i have always had a thing for Bo so you can just send her on her way:) how to explain that to the wife hmm.....;)

Because the whip will be displacing air faster than the speed of sound if it is accelerating faster than the speed of sound the test would be to flick the whip in a vacuum. Vacuums are noiseless so that would lead me to think Option B, that the air particles being displaced would be the source of the sound.

I also heard Liza Minelli is single again, if you're older ;)

Ya but she fell out of bed the other day, probably drunk. I think she may still be in hospital. Also never a bathing beauty.

I think I'm going to write a little lecture for the forum in order that all these things might get clear to members. The speed of sound is a condition of tempreture. I'll just put this in a thingie that can be opened if one wants and doesn't have to be bored if not.

The speed of sound is faster with increasing pressure or density isn't it? That seems to make the most sense. If this holds true then I would think that the blade tips on the rear stage of the supercharger where pressure is higher would be more at risk than the front ones for going supersonic. I could just be talking out my ass too. Am I close or is there no effect?

Yes, sound travels faster in a denser medium.
The air in the rear stage is denser than that in the front stage.
Ergo: the speed of sound is faster at the rear stage than at the front stage.

So the front blade tips will reach transonic speeds earlier than the rear blades (because the speed of sound is slower there).

Bob you are almost right. It is not dependent on the density though.The speed of sound is dependent on the temp only. If i remember right it is 49 x the sq root of the temp in degree R. At standard cond sea level it is 1117 ft/sec or 761 MPH. And at abs zero or -460F there is zero speed and there is no pressure

Pressure depends on the molecules hitting the side of the container. That pressure is the result of said force, being 2mc=force. c=velocity m=mass

The density is the number of molecules in a given space. the more molecules the more times they strike the walls. giving more pressure.

TEmpreture changes the speed of the moles therefore changing the force or pressure.
If the temp goes up the speed goes up and the pressure goes up. But this has not changed our mass.

Experement: We have a closed chamber with a temp probe and a press gauyge. around this chamber we have a "water jacket" in this jacket we have crushed ice. The temp gauge reads 32F the pressure gauge reads 10 psi.

Now we boil the ice in the jacket. The temp gauge reads 212f and the pressure gauge reads 19 psi. Is there any more mass in the chamber? Of course not it is sealed.
This is known as Boyle's law.

Then comes Charles' law. This states that if the pressure is held constant the volume varies
with the absolut temp. Here our test device has a piston held by a constant pressure so the volume can change. if the starting temp is again 32f the volume is 10 cu ft. we then raise the temp to 212 f the piston has retreated so as to allow 13.6 cu ft. Still the same mass.

Ijust know I'm being to breif and not getting out the foundation but I always said I'm a poor teacher, I tend to jump around. That's how my mind works, constantly wandering around.

I had thought of going into this with a paper that I took alot of time writing and rewriting until it made sense. So go ahead ask, maybe then I'll realize what I left out.

Oh yeh, I left out the sonic boom thing. It's the moving of the pressure wave away from the object that is going faster then it's pressure wave. OK OK I need to write that one over. Let me think on it for awhile. I'll make it more understandable.

I know it's confusing on the surface but if I could draw some diagrams it would be easier.


SOUND BARRIER


This is a better stab at telling you what happens when you break the sound barrier.
We have already discussed the way molecules act and why temperature effects the speed of sound and that effects pressure. Moving an object through the air creates a pressure wave in front of itself because we are compressing the air. The air propagates through the air at the speed of sound and at sub sonic speeds stays in front of the object.

So the influence on the air is immediately in front of the object going negative mach but when going supersonic it cannot stay ahead because it can only travel at Mach one. ( the word Mach is so named for the Australian physicist Ernest Mach)Therefore we can assume that a supersonic object is not penetrating disturbed air because the compressed wave is now going slower then our object.

So what we have just done is penetrate a wall of air compressed to an incompressible medium. This displaces the shock wave out at oblique angles to the object. I’m going to stop calling this an object, it’s a wing. In fact this is why the supersonic wing is so sharp compared to the subsonic.

Simply put, a sonic shock wave is the accumulation of sound wave energy developed when the sound moving away from our wing is stalled by the pressure of the air coming from the opposite direction. The speed of the airflow across the shockwave will decrease because the molecules are moving with the sound wave against the air velocity. This decrease in speed is accompanied by a rise in pressure, because the sound wave motion will convert most of the kinetic energy into a pressure rise. This is a sharp rise in pressure and temp creating a violent shock wave to be diverted obliquely off the wing.

Now that is perfectly clear, right?er. You can suffer by re-reading it and you'll get it.

hmm interesting...as i am not into areonautical science (or whatever you would call it...hmm physics :p) i'll have to say that i got the meaning after reading it a few times...but reading things like that on a post are sometimes hard........just b/c of the context in which they were written..but i go tthe meaning and now i feel more intelligent...oh crap...nope i just forgot it...lol...ah well. You almost got me feeling good about my brain..thank you for that:D

OK, I guess I misremembered some stuff.
I thought that the speed of propagation of a sound wave depended on all of the factors that you mentioned as well as the density of the medium. Thus explaining why sound waves travel faster in water than in air, at the same temp & pressure.
Obviously Boyle's Law and Charles's Law don't apply in an incompressible medium. Could be a whole different set of rules govern sound propagation in incompressible media.

Or I could just be full of it. ;)

Good explanation Richard.

For a similar explanation but with pictures, check out the Wikipedia article on sonic booms at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom

I love the picture of the F/A-18 pushing the Mach. Can your supercharger do that? :D :D :D

Hey that site has the same picture of the Fa-18 as I posted.
Guess there's not to many that show that point of flight.
Had to be one lucky shot. Truth is I know how it was done.

Fun subject.

Here's a couple videos for more amusement:

F-14 #1 (you can see the shockwave from condensation) (http://www.mikehowells.net/FS14ss.mpeg)

and

F-14 #2 (you can see shockwave on the surface of the water) (http://www.mikehowells.net/superflyby.mpg)

Thanks Ranger, I do love those. Wouldn't it be great to be able to play with Uncle Sams war toys?? I guess that is small consolation for those boys that serve to protect us all. They should get all the fun that is due them. Yet I still think I should get a ride in something, anything as long as it's fast.

Most fun I've had was a ride in a P-51 and that only screws it's way through the air. We need something that blows it's way.

Screws or blows... either is fine by me if it can get the job done.

The screw job can't take you supersonic. Or pull anywhere near the G's.

HEY, I need help. My Eldorado will not let me go to work. It thinks I'm stealing it. It flashes "anti theft system trouble, car may not restart". And it will not.
Any Cad mechanics out there??

Oh Lord, Please give me a carb and distributor. With those I can make a fart run.

is the eldorado passkey 1 or 2?
gm had a big problem with the wires doming off on the inside of the ignition switch.

and can i buy one of the sc's for a pj?

and can i buy one of the sc's for a pj?

No soupercharger for you!

-Soupercharger nazi

^^^ :eek:


Terrible, just terrible ;)

I have passkey 2. It didn't say the car was in theft mode because the alarm did not go off. It just starts for a second or two then turns off.
You may be able to get a SC for your PJ's. PM me on that.

if it runs for a second or two then dies....

that's just what the fc's do when the tid comes off.

look for a disconnected hose or something after the maf sensor. no check engine light?

The FC doesnt have an information panel that says "antitheft system problem, car may not restart" does it? Yes the CEL does light but so does everything else. The fuel gauge reads empty but there is gas in it. It's probably in the PZM.

I'm not sure if it is technically possible, but you may have hijacked your own thread RP :D .

You're right, from now on I'll hijack someone else's. :D :D

Besides, I can't wait to see what happens when the replies reach 1000.
does the program allow for four digits?

You're right, from now on I'll hijack someone else's. :D :D

Besides, I can't wait to see what happens when the replies reach 1000.
does the program allow for four digits?

no clue.. but keep the posts flowing ;)

like it needs any more damn posts UPDATE RICh DO IT!!!

Uh oh...its Y2K all over again...

Start stocking up on car magazines and printing out your favorite threads now; as soon as this thread hits 1000 the computer system won't know what to do! It will think it has 0 replies, and will cause Armageddon!

ya know its not the posts its the 70k times this thread has been looked at. i swear when i found it i didnt pay attention to how long it was, next thing i know the sun was coming up.

beers

I have a question, which may or may not have been answered already in an alternate form.

With AF, is there enough air at the top end, like around say 9200-10krpm, to extend the onset of the gradual fuel cut-off another 1-1.5k?

I have a question, which may or may not have been answered already in an alternate form.

With AF, is there enough air at the top end, like around say 9200-10krpm, to extend the onset of the gradual fuel cut-off another 1-1.5k?

I believe the fuel cutoff at 9.5k is more to prevent the engine from overheating. If memory serves, the only thing keeping a rotary engine from revving higher than that is cooling issues.

I don't think I understand your question. There is enough air to keep going but what would that have to do with the fuel extending itself further. Also I don't think that the fuel cut off is gradual. If it was so then you would have a fatal lean condition. The fuel cut off is used as a rev limiter. At least that is how and why it works on other engines.

Realize that the SC is an airpump as is the engine but the limit to the axial flow is tip speed (among certain other things) so overdrive ratio has to be built to put it's redline with that of the engine. If more air is needed then a longer blade must be designed into the blower. This is not done by the end user.

Some people have claimed that for a bigger engine you just add stages. In fact more stages could do one, the other, or both add more air or add more pressure. depends on which end of the compressor you add them. Added to the front, more air and more pressure. Added to the rear, more compression.

I've been reading this forum for about 2 years now, even before I pre-ordered my RX8. I would like to say Richard is doing something that makes me want to finally post! This is the most exciting thing for the RX8 =) Axial Flow Supercharger. I've been reading this thread since it first started and everyone seemed to knowledgeable. Reading this thread, you can always learn something.

Thanks Guys. :)

And what the hell took yooou so long sheeesh....

I couldn't pass up having the 1000th post. Sorry for post whoring I had to do it

Jokes on us, the lead page only shows 999. No provision for four digits.
How about it mods get out the new program.

Oops, sorry they did. :D :D

Well it was 999 replies. It doesn't include your original post.

the porting thread is catching up. we're gonna get you !! :D
snooch--hurry up and get the ecu.

I hope I have an RP AFSC installed before this thread hits 2000 posts -- scratch that 1500 posts -- scratch that 1250 posts. ;)

Back to work -- no more jet engine chit chat until we have a prototype installed and getting tuned. :p

My 8 is sitting under cover in the garage (15 inches of snow on the ground) -- I should have shipped to RP for testing :eek:

Send it, I'll have it back by the time the weather get better.

Will it be coming back with a complete AFSC kit installed? :D