Originally posted by Turbine_pwr
Your airflow measurement is a nice number to have.

Thanks. That is why I did them :D

I have documented it more here: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33370

Cheers,
Hymee.

I scarfed your plotted airflow information. Great post by the way.

Thanks

See Hymee, what did I tell ya. That turbine guy can put the numbers together. But the engine/aircraft numbers??? Off the top of your head!!! Sick. The F86 I finally can tell you was the J 47 in various power levels. Then in the H it was the J47-27 or J 72.
The amazing thing of the J47 line is it started out at 5000 lbs ended up at 9200. That' almost a 100% gain.
The only other blank I might be able to fill is the MD 90, if it's the same as the 80 family it was the Pratt JT8D-200.

Did I once hear that the Air Force F 4's were reengined just prior to retiring them?? One long time user of my V8 size units was the Air Force crash investagator for the f-4. Later the F-16. He had said something to that effect. He also has one of my blowers on a Chevelle since 1988. Just converted it to EFI.

He also told me that on the F 16 they changed from mechanical fuel control to electronic for a weight savings of 300lbs. Also that in the mechanical control unit there were more moving parts then the rest of the plane combined!! He sain in his crash investagation course they opened one up and there weremore gears and racks etc then he felt anyone could have fit in there.

Back to the F 4, Interesting that the F4 went to Isreal.
I know the F86 went to several countrys. Isreal was one and my friend Zeuschal got all the parts to build his 86 from them. He went over there and met with some very nice people and came home with everything. The only thing he started with was a de- miled shell. His started out a D and I don't know what it would be considered when he was done but it had H wings.

It was so perfect that the Air Force used to invite him to all there shows to exibite it. There's a book called Aces and their planes, I think. Anyway the 86 they use in the book is dave's. there is a cocpit shot that shows how perfect it was. In fact the day he had the tail off even Doug Thorten (T-38 Talon) had to come by and see it uncovered.

So if someone knows where there is a de miled F4 airframe I bet I can find the parts people. That would be more fun as you can take a friend along. To scare the shit out of. And I can get trining from my friend from the AF. You know you just can't go to your local flight school to learn to fly one. Z had to teach Thorten.

Isreal should be done with them by now. I think they are using F16's. Cheap parts sale coming up,

How did I get from a Rx8 to F4?? Don't lnow but it would be sweet. There were some British Knats (or nats) up for sale a few years ago. That's what the aerobatic team flys or used to anyway.

It would be nice to see that air flow chart you did turbine. I have to be more carfull then the positive displacment guy do in sizing .Your charts might help to predict surge and stall potential.The first Rx unit is on the test bench. I'll take some pictures tomorrow.

Or was that the chart you posted that I couldn't get downloaded. I'll go back and try again. Anyway I hope to have some interesting thing to talk to you about soon.


I'll get some pictures unit under test for posting.

Richard

This is waaaaaaaaaaaay too much info for a 16 year old like me.

Richard,

Hold out for an A10.. those are being retired from service in the next couple years. Everyday those fly over my workplace. Ugly, but very imposing! :)


Keep us posted on the Supercharger too ;) I was not interested in doing FI at all on the RX8 until I saw this. An unusual engine deserves an unusual FI solution.

oh the A-10 is beautiful in flight though...When I was in Beaufort I loved watching them make their low flight training runs over the ocean...exhilirating..

wow...most impressive...not many non-USAF F-16 pilots know about the fuel control change...if you've ever looked at the mechanical fuel control setup it _IS_ complicated..

Originally posted by Richard Paul

He also told me that on the F 16 they changed from mechanical fuel control to electronic for a weight savings of 300lbs. Also that in the mechanical control unit there were more moving parts then the rest of the plane combined!! He sain in his crash investagation course they opened one up and there weremore gears and racks etc then he felt anyone could have fit in there.


Richard

It's exactly one of the regular upgrade work the company I worked for two years ago makes on F100-PW-200 engines. F100 engines upgraded with DEEC (Digital Electronic Engine Control) are called F100-PW-220E. On top of DEEC conversion, this upgrade includes numerous hardware change to bring the -200 to equivalent to F100-PW-220 level (increased thrust, longer overhaul intervals).
That company performed that upgrade on Belgian F100s but also Royal Saudi AF and even USAF units.

Ok, so where's our daily update, Richard? Gotta feed the junkies... :D

Sorry to be gone so long.
The Mazda unit is on the test bench. Just havn't been able to find all the sensors.
Not strange I think I'm loosing my memory. So it spins but until monday we can't really start doing any tests.
I wanted to take some pictures but never did. Perhaps I will go in tomorrow and shoot some. If I can get them to disk then they should be posted by Sunday night.

Just spinning it though and only having pressure to read I think it may be more flexable.
Again anything I say may not really be the case as there is no hard data yet just my observations.

So expect some pictures by Monday and a few days later some data. Although even that will be preliminary. The best thing wiil be if we can go to the engine adaption quickly thereafter.

I'll be in touch, Richard

thanks for the update!

Richard,
make sure you do two things for the people who are watching this thing.
1. Get a sound clip.
2. Get a video clip if possible.

I'm out of town for a while, so if you want me to host pictures, i might be a little slow to respond.

You want to talk about real engines and real power. Look back at the turbo era of formula one. The 80's. How about 1200 hp from 91 cu in. That was qualifying trim true but they were only detuned to 1000 hp and then ran a 200 mile race. The numbers again 1500 cc's over 1000 hp and they run for two hours.

They did not use roots blower. They ran little bitty turbos on 4 and 6 cld engines. these were about the size of your drag race blower by itself.

A little dragster facts on these so called "crappy" roots blowers. Oldie but goodie to read. Just think what they would do if they were twin-screw! :eek:

(As you read this, remember that horsepower = speed; torque =
acceleration)

* One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower
than the first 6 rows at the Daytona 500.

* Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1 gallon of
nitromethane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate with
25% less energy being produced.

* A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the
dragster supercharger.

* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive,
the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition.
Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.

* At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the
flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.

* Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the
stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric
water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.

* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of
an arc welder in each cylinder.

* Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After ½ way,
the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at
1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.

* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up
in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow
cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.

* In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at
an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track,
the launch acceleration approaches 8Gs.

* Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed
reading this sentence.

* Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to
light!

* Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900 revolutions
under load.

* The redline is actually quite high at 9500rpm.

* The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew
worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated US
$1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record
is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top
speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of
the run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).


Putting all of this into perspective:

* You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered
Corvette Z06 (or blown Viper). Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel
dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You
have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through
the gears and blast across the starting line and past the dragster at an
honest 200 mph. The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment. The
dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard,
but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within
3 seconds the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish
line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.

* Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you
200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he
passed you within a mere 1320 foot long race course.

That, folks, is ACCELERATION!
Here's four more:

* It takes 1500+hp just to turn a top fuel blower.

* The pressure coming out of the headers can provide 1000lbs of
downforce. When a cylinder goes out, it can actually steer the car due to loss of
downforce on one side.

* There is so much torsional twist in the crankshaft (up to 20 degrees
at the big end of the track) that sometimes cam lobes are ground offset
from front to rear to try and re-phase the valve timing closer to
synchronization with the pistons.

* The car will be going over 60mph before the rear wheels cross the
start line, 300 inches.

I don't care who you are that's power. More than in any other sport. If you could get some track times after you get done tuning, then you will make a believer out of me because that's my language. Then I will say you were right and I was wrong, then proceed to save up and buy your product. Until then, it's all hearsay.

I thought we weren't going to argue anymore... Oh well... Richard, how is it coming?! Keep us posted!!!!!

We're not going to. Drewstein is skeptical, which is reasonable. But we all want the same thing - a working FI kit, and results.

Drew quoted one of my posts on drag racing. Nearly all of that with the exception of a couple of lines, I originally posted.

Drew quoted one of my posts on drag racing. Nearly all of that with the exception of a couple of lines, I originally posted.

Plagiarism at its best. I read the part about power=speed and torque=acceleration, and then I smiled. My favorite sentences always have an equal sign :).

Man, if drew only knew the fun I could have with him. But I will not let this thread become a coffee clotch of bickering woman.
I will respond to those things that are relitive to airflow and superchargers.
Drew you make my point, the roots blower is so inefficient that you can't even get the math to come out that bad. As I said in my dragster paper they are getting down to the same efficiency as the engine. that is about 37%. That is why if they spin the blower faster to get more pressure they go slower. Check the math I ran in that paper. I haven't read it in awhile but I'm sure it makes the point.

Let's see, the first 6 rows at Daytona. That's 12 cars, right. Breathing through restrictor plates so they all together have about 33 sq in. typical dragster inlet 54 sq ins. So now what???

Instead of braging about the horspower they should call the Pentagon. How did they kill two spectators with a head stud??? And I had to tell them why. No undercut on the stud. I will not say his name but he was the tech boss a few years ago, said to me "how was anyone to predict a head stud breaking?"
I asked "did it break in the first thread in the block? Yes. Then I could have.

All the stretch was consentrated in that one little v groove. It had to break. And as to the spark plugs coming out why don't you just have the manufactures roll the threads for starters. I have a permenant fix but they didn't want to go there.

So they flow 3000 cfm and use 1000-1500 hp Driving the pump. Your proud of that??? They live for a whole 4 seconds, that's an accomplishment. For the piston manufactures anyway.

I visited a freind who was going to Texas for the last two races of the season. I watched as they loaded the semi. For one top feul dragster they loaded one complete spare engine oil pan to blower scoop. Then 3 blocks, 6 cranks, 26 sets of pistons, 12 sets of rods. 2 milk cartons full of clutch discs. And on and on it went.

That's racing?? Remember I said a freind. I do know top feul people and have for my entire life. Drew, have you talked to Austin Coil lately, had lunch with any top fuel drivers? Had a beer with someone who makes top fuel blowers. I have.

OK, back to the topic. I just came from the shop where we ran the 8 unit for a few hours. Like I said some sensors are missing but we could run for pressure and power used. Lets just say that this unit is more flexable, as in running wider band then prior units. I just ran a surge line and took some pictures. Not enough to use up the roll so i didn't print them.

We shall do more work on the bench this week. You will not nessasarly be getting everything that is develped as it takes some time to really sort it and publish it in meaningfull terms. But you'll get enough.

I'm very happy with this blower except that it makes too much pressure. We can work on that.

Richard

Richard,

Seriously, don't bother with him. It isn't worth your typing or time. I don't think most RX-8 owners care too much about a blower designed to last 5 seconds.

Interesting facts but the connection of a dragster to the RX-8 and your project are very limited. I think most reading understand that.

-Mr. Wigggles

BTW, please get a digital camera.

Folks, let's NOT start this up again. :mad: If it starts again, I'll close the thread - and we all lose out.

It sounds as if your really breaking ground keep up the good work :cool:

I'm testing, nothing has broken. What I want to do is upgrade some of my lab equipment. I have digital this and that but it is not integrated. So that is priority now. Does not mean we will stop the car installation or the engine work.

I am very happy with the performance of this unit and do not see any mods nessasary. Except removing a stage. It just has too much pressure with the current design.

Turbine has me nuts about these engines. So I have looked up the missing F-100.
It used the Pratt J57, So did the F101, F104, F105 and F106a. In addition to the B-52. Well rounded powerplant you might say. Also the J75 is basicly the uprated version. The F106a had that spec engine. Other applications may have been uprated later in their usage.

Just that the only one of these that was long lived was and is the B-52.
The A-7 uses the Allison TF41. the AB 300 uses the GE CF6-50.

Still all axial flow too.

Thanks Richard

Turbine, I need an e mail address for you.

when you say, "do not see any mods necessary" do you mean, no physical upgrades to the engine/drivetrain, but need ECU upgrade, or just nothing at all in general?

I'm only talking about the compressor. And I thought I was moving right along.
Guy's, these things take a lot of time. I wish they didn't, I'd be a lot happier too.

RAP

ah, i see...sorry. didn't mean to rush you, i was just confused by what i perceived as vagueness in your statements.

Plagiarism at its best. I read the part about power=speed and torque=acceleration, and then I smiled. My favorite sentences always have an equal sign :).
I actually got if from NLOC.com a long time ago. It's a very old post and I guarentee rotorygod didn't come up with it.

I'm not hear to call names any more because I don't feel that gets us anywhere, instead I'm tring to stay super grounded because I have lost buco $$$ in pipe dreams. No hard feelings towards Richard or anyone else. :cool:

Richard- Any pics of the unit on the 8? I would like to see the setup for educational purposes.

I am very happy with the performance of this unit and do not see any mods nessasary. Except removing a stage. It just has too much pressure with the current design.

.

That means the Axial s/c will be even more compact in size! Good!

Richard- Any pics of the unit on the 8? I would like to see the setup for educational purposes.


There aren't any pictures of the unit on the 8 yet, and there won't be for a while im guessing. Go back a few pages, or even to the start of the thread and read some - you'll notice he's only at the beginning of testing.


Keep it up Richard

i'm sorry for asking a noob question..

but what's wrong with more pressure?
y would u have to remove a stage?

more pressure = more air = more fuel = more power... isn't it?

s2je77

Equals more stress on the internals. There are so many unknowns yet. It depends on what application you want it for. Who knows if a 12PSI kit requires more fuel flow than the stock injectors can supply? Not enough fuel = too lean = detonation = bang = here is the check for a new motor. Thanks for coming.

Some people, with such new cars will only want "bolt-on". Down the track, sooner perhaps, people will be prepared to do internal mods to keep up with higher boost.

One other thing - More pressure = more heat, there is no escaping that law of physics. Too much heat = need an intercooler = more cost. Intercooler = boost loss = need more boost = more power to drive pump = chasing your tail.

So in certain respects, less boost is better. It is, as they say, "Horses for Courses".

Cheers,
Hymee.

thanx hymee,

Is 12 PSI a alot? cuz i'm interested in FI for my 8
and this S/C does sound a lot better than the turbos i have in other cars...
in my VW GOLF.. the it goes up to 5 bars... how many psi is that? is it a lot?
y would my dad's porsche only go up to 3 bars?

s2je77

5 bar is 73 psi and 3 bar is 44 psi; i guarantee neither car was running that much boost. Am I misunderstanding the "bars" you're talking about here?

umm,.. 5 bar is ~75 psi,.. I HIGHLY doubt that,.. you sure its not .5 bar? or 7 psi? same for the porsche, as 45 psi is way way to much aswell. 12 psi is a decent amount of boost. the max I've usually seen on rotarys is 30, with most street cars in the 10-20 range. The rx8 has high compression though so i'd expect 6-12 psi max of a street car..

A bar is equal to 14.5 psi or 29.5 in hg.
This is the euro idea of a normal day. They are probably right.
We use the standard corrected number of 29.92 in. hg or 14.7psi.
This is the labrotory correct number for sea level dry air at 60 f.

Also note that this is the number we correct dyno hp to.
Then there is the SAE correct number. I might not have this exactly right but memory says 29.38 at 75 f.????

Now I know if that is not correct to the .001 someone is going to tell me the right number. And that is OK by me. Just pointing out that this is a rough room, alot of real good studies here. I like that also.

Richard

i'm sorry for asking a noob question..

but what's wrong with more pressure?
y would u have to remove a stage?

more pressure = more air = more fuel = more power... isn't it?

s2je77

I took a more mathematical approach when it came to making power. Read my first post in this thread:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=33370&highlight=ideal+gas+law

Did you mean by more fuel, more fuel consumption? A/F ratios are critical to optimum performance, especially in forced induction applications. More pressure can lead to more power, but it depends on the method. For example, an equation for power, which I will call W[dot] follows the equation

W[dot]=m[dot]*[(Integrand)pdV]

I wish I had mathtype :(.

m[dot] is the mass flow rate
[(Integrand)pdV] is the integral from the initial specific volume to the final specific volume, multiplied by some specified pressure p.

For those who haven't had any experience with calculus, the formula for W[dot] goes to

W[dot]=m[dot]p(v[2]-v[1])

v[1] is the initial specific volume
v[2] is the final specific volume, which are both measured in ft^3/lbm or in SI units, m^3/kg

Note: Mass air flow rates are usually in lbf/min, or in kg/s. It is okay to mix units, as long as you convert between English and SI.

Yes, increasing the pressure will increase the power. Unfortunately, the internal strength is weakened, since the mass flow rate is both pressure and temperature dependent. This will explain a lower modulus in the material.

With ideal intercoolers, the temperature drops, but the pressure is to remain constant. Cooler operating temperatures will lead to more power. Why? Going back to the Ideal Gas Law for the mass balance,

m[dot]=p(AV)/{R[G]T}

you can observe that lowering the temperature will lead to a higher mass flow rate, thus increasing W[dot].

thanx hymee,

Is 12 PSI a alot? cuz i'm interested in FI for my 8
and this S/C does sound a lot better than the turbos i have in other cars...
in my VW GOLF.. the it goes up to 5 bars... how many psi is that? is it a lot?
y would my dad's porsche only go up to 3 bars?

s2je77

It depends what you call a lot.

5 bar of boost is a lot though. 1 bar ~ 1 atmosphere ~ 14.7 PSI.

3 Bar boost = 1 atmosphere + 3 more. Effectively 4 times the N/A volume of air going in.

But those numbers are more like PSI for factory/production cars. I would believe 5 PSI for the Golf (without any other specs on hand).

You will find some Dragsters run at 30+ PSI.

The 12 I mentioned was just a figure I plucked. It is a fair bit for a street car. I was making a point about the fuel system keeping up with a fairly aggressive level of boost.

Cheers,
Hymee.

What is the deal with this "axial flow supercharger" anyways? After thumbing through the countless pages, there's not really that much about it. It sounds more like a turbine to me...

What is your definition of a turbine???

Good info here I reckon, RAP has even posted pics of the components, and papers he has written!

What do you want?? Oh, I forgot. Rome really was built in a day.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Oh boy, I for myself will step aside on this one. There are some real intelects on this thread who can do better then I, and will.
My only point is that second year engineering students always know everything. Hell, I did.

Just warning you, like I said before. This is a rough room.

I know there are some real smarties in this forum. In addition, I know they're smarter than me. I just enjoy using mathematics to make my point. Concepts are more important than any math.

With ideal intercoolers, the temperature drops, but the pressure is to remain constant. Cooler operating temperatures will lead to more power. Why? Going back to the Ideal Gas Law for the mass balance,

m[dot]=p(AV)/{R[G]T}

you can observe that lowering the temperature will lead to a higher mass flow rate, thus increasing W[dot].

Sir,

With all due respect, I must object to those statements. Like RAP said, this is a rough room.

If the charge is cooled, its pressure drops. You can't get away from that ideal gas law you mentioned.

X molecules of "air" always ways the same mass. Once the air has gone through the supercharger, there is X molecules there. No more, no less. No amount of heating or cooling will change the number of molecules in there.

And I didn't say an intercooler is not any good. But it is not a panacea.

Cheers,
Hymee.

I love the math and theory behind it as well. But my calculator doesn't go down the 1/4 mile very fast. ;)

You need the calculator to help get things close to right, but the practical experience is what puts results on the board.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Sir,

With all due respect, I must object to those statements. Like RAP said, this is a rough room.

If the charge is cooled, its pressure drops. You can't get away from that ideal gas law you mentioned.

X molecules of "air" always [weigh] the same mass. Once the air has gone through the supercharger, there is X molecules there. No more, no less. No amount of heating or cooling will change the number of molecules in there.

And I didn't say an intercooler is not any good. But it is not a panacea.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Mathematical analysis is a model for reality. Of course, these results are going to be skewed in the real world. In addition, I believe I mentioned an ideal intercooler, and not an actual intercooler. I am quite aware that real intercoolers have significant pressure drop. Just read the specs off the 2004 Garrett catalog. The pressure drop probably comes from the transience of the working fluid. That's what correction equations are for. You do make a point Hymee. The best results are the ones on the track, and not the lab. Also, you can use these to make your car better. It's that simple. Experience always weighs more than mathematics.

Thanks SM6.

Don't forget there must also be a pressure drop because we reducing the temperature, whilst keeping the volume and mass constant. The temp only affects spark timing / detonation risks. No matter what the temp, once you have stuffed more air molecules into the intake under pressure, there is more of them to get into the combustion chamber.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Indeed Hymee. Also, after observing the design of an axial-flow compressor once again, I would believe the efficiency would be far greater than positive-displacement, or even centrifugal superchargers. I would support the manufacture of this product, since it provides another alternative of adding power. Unfortunately, the only way to really prove whether the axial-flow compressor is sound is to test and win.

I certainly enjoy these forums because we can exchange knowledge from the comfort of our own homes. Learning is fundamental :).

And test I intend to do!!

the cars are all the way down in the garage... so i don't wanna hike down there and check the units....

i'll take ur word for it that i'm reading the wrong numbers....
then do k27 and k37 mean n e thing?
cuz k27 is the one in the golf and the k37 is in the 944

i'm probably getting off topic... so u can ignore me and go back to talking about the S/C

jeff

I walked all the way down to this interenet site http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/products/commercial.asp ;)

The K27 is 150-330 kW range.

The K37 is 230-265 kW range.

Actual boost pressure is a function of the displacement of the engine it is installed on. (I.e. how much air it requires, v's how much is being "pumped".

Cheers,
Hymee.

Neat. I've been looking for Borg-Warner's webpage for quite some time. Thank you Hymee.

I googled for "k27 k37 turbo".

It is the first page, so I could have clicked "I'm feeling lucky".

Glad I can help with the really hard problems.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hey :mad:!! J/K. Actually, I was looking for the page with the chart of turbochargers.

Also, I forgot to mention that the idea of an axial flow supercharger reminded me of a turbo-jet engine, though the two are nowhere near analagous.

thy're not? have you read this WHOLE thread?

Nope :D. J/K.

I just enjoy using mathematics to make my point. It's especially fun in normal conversations with non-engineering types. Watch their eyes cross. :D

In a related note, I have a BCD clock on my desk at work. It's pretty funny to see the engineers come into my office and say "Hey, nice BCD clock!" while the business folks come in and say "Hey, what's that blinky thing?" :D

We now return your to your normally scheduled Axial Flow programming.

so without reading the entire thread....whats the word on the supercharger? is it a go on the rx8 yet? or still "in progress"?

No.

so without reading the entire thread....

Bad boy. http://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_nutkick.gif

Go back to the start and do not collect $200. Take note of one post talking about the construction of the city of rome. Hehehe.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Today I assembled a Rx style 4 stage blower. Sometime next week I can do some A/B testing. There are some people on the site who are helping with the theoretical flow of the Rx 8 engine and with this data we may get a good idea of what to expect.

Then there are all those theorys floating around about the different manor of reaction vs the standard piston engine. I cannot opine to this. We can only know when they are put together. Blower and engine that is.

Thank you, Richard

Sorry to have hijacked your thread Richard. Do you think there would be a difference in pressurizing a rotary engine compared to a piston engine?

Well Shelly in my opinion NO. I treat them both as positive displacment receivers.
Yet that question seems to be flying around all the time. I do not have the practical experiance to answer.

I believe the one to ask is RotoryGod. How about it RG are you out there?

RAP

I have an undergrad in Aero E. (CU-Boulder) and remember doing some project work on axial flow compressors -- but I also know enough to leave the technical aspects to the guru (you in this case) -- we don't know enough (and shouldn't expect to know) about the proprietary aspects of your design. As a business owner myself -- my suggestion to you would be to just keep focused on the outcomes and needs of the market -- if you can deliver on the promising potential of the axial s/c at a reasonable price -- the market will respond!

Keep up the good work! And no vacation for you this summer -- I want my axial s/c ASAP ;) :D

keep up the good work

How do you deal with compressor surge on your units?

I'm pretty familiar with our gas turbines at our power plant (which have gigantic 17 stage axial compressors) and dramatic changes in load/speed are something they do not appreciate. Thus they have a carefully controlled intake system and 3 blowoff ports at different stages to handle this - which in our case is fine to bypass the compressor since we are only saving the equipment (only get speed/load changes in startup or shutdowns)but in a car I's think a similar system would create large periods of hesitation.

...or maybe this isn't a problem because your units only produce 6-10psi while ours is producing 135psi??

Richard keep the good work, we all here want you to succeed. If there is anything you need please let me know

Mark

What IS it about this thread that everyone keeps getting pissed off at each other? Jeesh, folks.

I have once again gone back and cleaned up all the bad will and negative comments. Let's stick to the topic.

Some people are here trying to learn, and there is no reason because of past (now deleted) negativity to continue in with that feeling.

AND, to those people who are feeling attacked, there's no reason to keep responding. And there's no reason to get sidetracked at this point... if the question is not DIRECTLY related to the Axial Flow unit at this point, don't ask it.

We're all here for the same reason - to learn and participate. Since the past comments are gone, it never happened. Let's procede with that in mind.

Thank you, RAP

Omicron,

Great Modding! Thankfully I missed the last round. Otherwise I might have been turned off this thread.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Well Shelly in my opinion NO. I treat them both as positive displacment receivers.
Yet that question seems to be flying around all the time. I do not have the practical experiance to answer.

I believe the one to ask is RotoryGod. How about it RG are you out there?

RAP

They both take in air, compress it, combust it, then expel it. From a functionality standpoint, what's different? A 4 cycle engine is a 4 cycle engine whether it spins, moves up and down, or has valves or not. The main consideration is how to calculate the theoretical airflow numbers based on displacement. Although you can work it out on paper fairly easily, it has often proven to be different in practice.

Bad boy. http://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_nutkick.gif

Go back to the start and do not collect $200. Take note of one post talking about the construction of the city of rome. Hehehe.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Love the animation Hymee. :D

Dont know if anyone mentioned the pros and cons of axial flow? Personally id go for a centrifugal compressor, its smalled has a higher boost of upto 10:1. Axial flow would surge and stall big time unlike its centrifugal counterpart, either u would have a bleed valve on the casing or variable pitch stators, plus u would need many stages to gain the same kind of pressures as a single centrifugal compressor.Added intertia from rotating parts in axial flow would slow engine acceleration. Ever watched a 777 take off? How long does it take for the engine to spool up???? Airflow through the engine is very precise, to much and youll have a surge.
KEEP IT SIMPLE!!

martin

Licenced aircraft engineer!!!

Dont know if anyone mentioned the pros and cons of axial flow? Personally id go for a centrifugal compressor, its smalled has a higher boost of upto 10:1. Axial flow would surge and stall big time unlike its centrifugal counterpart, either u would have a bleed valve on the casing or variable pitch stators, plus u would need many stages to gain the same kind of pressures as a single centrifugal compressor.Added intertia from rotating parts in axial flow would slow engine acceleration. Ever watched a 777 take off? How long does it take for the engine to spool up???? Airflow through the engine is very precise, to much and youll have a surge.
KEEP IT SIMPLE!!

martin

Licenced aircraft engineer!!!

How much time would it take to spool up a 777 engine if it had a centrifugal compressor, you think? How much does it take to spool up an early RR Nene engine?
For the rest (surge, stall, inertia...) we'll see in due time when Richard releases some data.

Isn't it fully spooled when the pilot lifts on the brakes???
What parts have you engineered??

If u use axial flow on a car engine it would only be good at constant speed, constant accelerate and deaccelerate would be no good it would never attain pressure, Because as the axle accelerates you will be starving the engine of air because either u will be bleeding air off or your variable pitch stator vanes will be restricting air flow to prevent surge!!!If its a single spooled engine it will accelerate quicker than a RR 3 spool design. An old RR nene engine was centrifugal engine, again a single spool engine.
Some engines such as the pt6 use axial and a centrifugal compressors, but im led to believe it runs at about 56000 rpm!!!! Obviously an engine like this isnt accelerated and deaccelarated in short spurts because if u did not much would happen!
Ive worked on rolls royce , cfm , v2500, pratts and light aviation engines!
Personnally!!! Im interested in making an exhaust recovery turbine, whereby the exhaust is passed through a turbine which is directly connected to the prop shaft or gearbox. Think how much energy is wasted in gas!
The more stages u add the more problems u will have with surge, which will probably make the engine stall! Id imagine u would need a fairly large compressor as the 8's engine draws 3.9 litres of air a revoultion! multiply that by 9000 thats quite a bit of air!

My mistake the nene had 2 shafts!!!

Puma, Let me see if I understand this.
All 1000 plus axial flow superchargers out there that I have built do not work???
Their owners have failed to report this to me.
Axial flow superchargers marketed as Latham (my company) have been out since 1956. Read the June 1956 Hot Rod magazine.
Also check out several other magazine articals that tested my blowers. Do a search. In particular find the Car Craft artical of 1986 (I think and I'll look it up) that tested my blower compared to three roots blowers. All limited to 7 psi. My blower made 467 hp no one else made even 400. Independent test. Done by Airflow Research.

Some of the things you talk about make no sense to me. But I have a finite knowlage of gas turbines. I think you should talk to Turbine_pwr. He can address any questions you may have as to spooling up or down. I'm just a dumb hot rodder who builds things because no one told him he couldn't do it.

Just think, if I'd of had been blessed with your wisdom I never would have built all those blowers. I admit one thing, you would have saved me millions. And a marriage.

I'm going to go out and buy a scanner so I can put in some of the past documentation of my work.

Thank you for your input.

Richard

AH!!!! you better tell Rotory god about that rx airflow. He had to tell me the right way to figure it. But your way out on that shaft to rotor ratio. It's the other way. Now what say you?? 3.9ltr how about 7 ltrs, that would make it run.

And that exhaust recovery thing. You might try inventing the turbocharger.

The Renesis theoretically displaces 1.3 liters or air per eccentric shaft revolution.

The piston engine displaces all of it's air in 2 complete revolutions. Using this number, the rotary displaces 2.6 liters of air.

The rotary however needs 3 complete revolutions of the eccentric shaft to displace all 6 chambers and this brings it to 3.9 liters. It does NOT displace 3.9 liters of air per revolution.

All of this assumes 100% volumetric effeciency.

*** MOD EDIT by Omicron***

Post removed for vulgarity and lack of content. Do NOT do it again, SurreyPuma.

that's enough of that mr. surreypuma. if you can't have a conversation without resorting to that kind of lanquage you will be banned. consider this a warning. again i suggest to you that you read the rest of the thread. you will find some of the answers you seek have already been given.

I'm too immature to have a civilized conversation with people on the internet so I’ve been reduced to a MOD EDIT!

Excuse me, this sort of nonsense is not tolerated here. You have crossed the line.

You come in here calling people names and telling the they know nothing, yet you show your ignorance very early on in your misconstrued idea of the displacement of the Renesis. The Renesis displaces 1.3 L of air every revolution. I have posted graphs from pratical tests showing the actual mass flow rate of the Renesis, and it excedes 100% in at least 2 places on it RPM band. It has high volumetric / mass flow efficiency for a naturally aspirated engine.

Please show some respect to Richard, and the practical work he is doing.

Cheers,
Hymee.

PS - How fast does your text-book get you down the 1/4 mile, or round a circuit race track? I don't mind asking that cause I have the runs on the board on both.

And I know some very nice people who suffer from Cerabal Palsy ("Spastics") through no choice of their own. Your insult is offensive. Please withdraw your insults, and make some valuable contributions to this thread.

here we go agaiN! mods where are you?

dont let ppl like him speak for the rest of us. keep working at it and we await your final product. we leave it to pros like u. :)

Richard, very very interesting thread. I can't wait for more.

Im only pointing out facts and figures from an aircraft engineers point of view.
http://www.geocities.com/henry_yu_84/tc.html
http://www.fact-index.com/w/wr/wright_r_3350_32w.html

I'm interested in making an exhaust recovery turbine, whereby the exhaust is passed through a turbine which is directly connected to the prop shaft or gearbox.

That's called turbocompounding. But you probably know that. I thought of it for my RX8 : a bit of a torque boost together with an FE improvement. Unfortunately, it would be at a price!
Why don't you develop your idea in another thread and let this one to axial S/C.

Bump? How about an update, Richard? I'm also curious on how you're thinking about plumbing this unit...

richard,
i'm back in town if you need more pictures hosted.

I bought the 8 for its unique engine. If I go with FI, I would like for it to be unique as well. I like the concept of axial flow. I don't see compresor stall as an issue since it is mechanicaly linked to an engine. The only time it might come into place would be at high engine rpm and low throttle position. A pressure releef valve would take care of that.

As far as turbine engines go, I have seen the increased fuel eficeincy in engines as they have gone from centrifugal to axial. The same should apply here.

Count me in for one.

John

p.s. I have not been able to see any photos on this thread.

Centrifugal flow compressors are shorter than the axial flow compressors and becasue of their spoke like design they can accelerate air faster and immediatley diffuse it into the direction of flow.
Advantages are of centrifugal comps. are :-
1) High px. rise per stage, compression ratios upto 15:1 possible.
2) Good effiency over a wide rotational speed range, this is from idle to full rpm.
3)Simplicity of manafacture, relatively low cost.
4)Low weight
5)Low inertia loads aids spool up.
Disadvantages are:-
1) Large frontal area for a give airflow. 2) More than 2 stages impractical

Axial flow flow compressors require a large amount of stages to gain a high pressure rise, unlike the centrifugal compressor which has very high compression ratio's the axial flow can only manage a pressure rise of about 1.25 per stage. To gain a large compression u will havbe to add more stages, hence why most turbines have up to 13 stages of compression.
Some advantages are:-
1) High peak efficiencies from RAM AIR, created by its straight through design (N/A to RX8)
2) High peak pressures attainable by addition of extra stages.
3) Small frontal area
Disadvantages
1) Difficulty in manafacture and costs.
2) Relative high weight
3)Low pressure rise per stage 1.25:1
4) High inertia.
5) Poor effiencies at low speeds

Centrifugal flow compressors are shorter than the axial flow compressors and becasue of their spoke like design they can accelerate air faster and immediatley diffuse it into the direction of flow.
Advantages are of centrifugal comps. are :-
1) High px. rise per stage, compression ratios upto 15:1 possible.
2) Good effiency over a wide rotational speed range, this is from idle to full rpm.
3)Simplicity of manafacture, relatively low cost.
4)Low weight
5)Low inertia loads aids spool up.
Disadvantages are:-
1) Large frontal area for a give airflow. 2) More than 2 stages impractical

Axial flow flow compressors require a large amount of stages to gain a high pressure rise, unlike the centrifugal compressor which has very high compression ratio's the axial flow can only manage a pressure rise of about 1.25 per stage. To gain a large compression u will havbe to add more stages, hence why most turbines have up to 13 stages of compression.
Some advantages are:-
1) High peak efficiencies from RAM AIR, created by its straight through design (N/A to RX8)
2) High peak pressures attainable by addition of extra stages.
3) Small frontal area
Disadvantages
1) Difficulty in manafacture and costs.
2) Relative high weight
3)Low pressure rise per stage 1.25:1
4) High inertia.
5) Poor effiencies at low speeds

One question and one comment :

Q : Can you explain to me the main reasons the aero-engine industry moved from centrifugal to axial type compressors?

C : Considering the above disadvantages of axial compressors, Richard will gain the status of genius if or when he'll come up with a good automotive application for his axial compressor. He seems to know what he's talking about and I really hope he'll succeed.

PS : 1.25:1 pressure rise per stage. Give me 2 stages and I'll be happy!.

I certainly don't think the lower pressure rise per stage is an issue here...Richard has already stated his initial design was making too much boost.

jds

I have listed the advantages and disadvantages above, im sure u can work out why aerospace moved. Though some engines use both and some use just one type. Garrett TPE331 is two stage centrifugal, the TFE731 use's four stages of axial flow and then a centrifugal compressor to really increase the pressure. Even at low RPM the axial will have to be turning at quite high speed, this will obviously sap more power from the engine, more so than from a centrifugal type compressor.
Next point where the hell are u going to fit an axial flow compressor in the engine? Why do u think people use centrifugal compressors? Yes, they both do the same job but clearly the advantages of centrifugal are clear. If Richard can come up with a good idea ill take off my hat, but im sure it would have been looked at before, yes it would work im sure but not with sacrifice, theres no such thing as a free lunch, is there?

SurreyPuma, not trying to be a jerk or anything, but have you really been reading this thread? It HAS been tried before...by Richard...with success! Now, I don't believe its been on a rotary before, but we'll see soon enough (hopefully).

As for your size concerns, Richard showed some pictures of the unit he's working on and it didn't really look that big to me. Hey, maybe this will be a reason for one of those funky off-center hood bulges :-)

jds

Fair enough, maybe it will work but i can assure u somewhere down the line there wont be advantages, as i said there is no such thing as a free lunch, maybe it works but does it work on the track? Does it work efficiently? Lots of aircraft engines have been developed and how many are succesful? Why isnt this design used everywhere by people?

I'm just guessing here, but I believe you said yourself it was more complex and expensive to make. That could be a factor. I think Richard is using some proprietary designs as well, so maybe they've found a way to get around some of the inherent issues, because obviously you're right...there are pros and cons of every design choice. Maybe it will be the best thing since sliced bread but cost $20K for the kit :(

Richard, as a gesture of good will I'd be happy to accept a free sample :D

jds

I'm having some trouble posting here. I keep writing posts and then the thread doecn't remember me. So I'll be short. First does anyone know what happened to the pictures and downloads???

If someone out there wants to build a centrifugal blower please do. I'll support your effert and all your rights to do so. You just go right ahead and put up a few hundred thousand dollars a few years of your life and I'll cheer you on.
Now that is enough on that deal, I will not touch it again.

Let's test the thread, if it works I'll write another
RAP

really sorry to hear you've been losing posts Richard!! if it doesn't go through when you click "ok", try just backing up in your browswer and hopefully it'll remember all that you've typed. if not, before you post try "Ctrl-C" copying the whole thing, just in case.

i for one would hate to see frustration of wasted time keep you from posting more.

Why isnt this design used everywhere by people?

I believe the same question can be asked of the rotary engine.

Richard, sorry to hear you are losing posts... not that you need any advice, but perhaps you could type up your responses in a text file and copy/paste it over to the browser to be safe. I just don't want to miss any of your posts on account of flaky browser behavior. :)

Surrey, no one claimed this was a free lunch kind of thing. I, and at least a few others, see this as an interesting development for the RX. Richard has the experience of building these for automotive applications, You have related experience but how relevent is it going to prove to be. Richard isn't asking anyone to take his word that it will work. He's prototyping it right now to prove if it works and spending a good deal of his ( or at least his companys' ) money to do so.

I don't doubt you know a great deal about aircraft turbines and much of what you've posted I find interesting, I just think that it doesn't directly apply to most of what Richard is doing. I may be wrong but each stage should compound, so the compression isn't

1.25 X 4

but rather

1.25(1.25(1.25(1.25))).

( I hope my notation is correct algebra is way in the past for me ) Which would produce quite an adequate amount of boost. So I don't see a problem with the blower making enough boost. The picture of the 5 stage test unit is barely larger than a tissue box which is smaller than the smallest centrifugal blower for automotive use that I know of. You may be right but there are literally 1000 example that prove otherwise.

The bottom line is if Richard suceeds people will likely buy, If he fails then it's no loss for me someone else will find a way for FI on the Renesis.

*** MOD EDIT ***

Message deleted to prevent another flame war.

I enjoy Richard's approach to sizing the supercharger into something that is smaller than a WD-40 can. I mean, we all don't want to slap a big T66 turbocharger on to make big power gains. I wish I knew more about axial-flow supercharging, but there's not enough information out there that I can find. Any help? I wish you the best Richard :).

I'm not typing anymore until this thing gets fixed. It's probably at my end.
Lets see if a quick reply goes through.

Richard,

I have similar problems with another message board, it is too the point where I type what I want to post in a word doc, then cut and paste into the board message area before it loses my password again.

Lots of aircraft engines have been developed and how many are succesful? Why isnt this design used everywhere by people?

The next time I go to an airport or see a plane fly over I'll be sure to ask them if their engines are successfully working.

Why isn't the rotary engine's design used everywhere by people?

BTW: The first jet engines were based off of centrifugal turbochargers. Then slowly they refined them and made them into the more efficient monsters that we have today. There isn't a single commercially made engine today that isn't an axial turbine. There are actually only a couple of turbocharger companies out there. Everyone just uses them with their own labels stamped on them. It is far easier to use what already exists and you are familiar with then to take the time and money to do it another way. Let's use the piston engine as an example to that. People fear change which is why they typically fight it.

im a licensed aircraft engineer. Yes, i am a mechanic, not university educated, but as i have a licence i am seen as a professional, unlike in america where one person does one job, i can actually multi task!
ROtary god i thin u will find that the first engine to fly was in fact german and this was an axial flow type, the reason whittles engine was more successful was due to the fact that he used a centrifugal compressor, and this did not need to be stripped down every 6 hours for overhaul. And also if u look up garret u will find that the TPE 331 is in actual fact has 2 centrifugal compressors! The PT6 uses avial and a centrifugal compressor.
THe only down point of the rotary is the fuel consumption. Apart from that its an excellent invention, why the hell do u think i bought one.
Napier bought out an engine called the nomad, was 12 cylinder horizontally opposed diesel, the intersting part about the engine was the fact that it was supercharged with axial flow stages and also a supercharged with centrifugal fan, exhaust gases past through a turbine which was also linked to the crankshaft, and when real power was needed there was a combustion chamber which added extra heat to the exhaust which went through the turbine sextion, in fact there were 2 turbines ,with one having an actuator to let the exhaust gas onto the extra turbine. This was a great idea , SFC was about 0.34, and did it take off? No it didnt, probably due to the fact of gas turbines.
Rolls royce dart is another excellent engine, bit old but relied on 2 centrifugal compressors, and why did they choose it like this? Because it was simple and very effective!

AHH yes, the Nomad, I know very little of this engine. Yet I seem to know more then you. If you are going to use it as an example that is fine. Just tell the whole story. If you don't know it, I will tell you.

As you describe it That was the original concept. While they did get it to run it was belching fire, backfiring and almost never started. But that was 1950, by 1953 it did run. And how did they do that?? They scraped all of that bs stuff like the centrifugal compressor, reheat chamber and auxiliary turbine. The remaining turbine was linked to the gearbox by a variable-ratio Beier gear. It drove a single propeller from the crankshaft.

This was the engine that recorded sfc of .345. To be exact the first version was the E.125 The last and simplified version was the E.145. Still it never went anywhere.

*** MOD EDIT ***

Stop the flames, and let's stay on topic.

Surrey,

I recognize that you may not be here any more, however, I do want to comment on the comparison you've made between axial and centrifugal compressors. I will ignore the combativeness of the recent posts and try to focus on the facts as I see them. Just as a note: I've been involved in the gas turbine industry for the last 20+ years (both as a educator and a practitioner).

First, it is clear to me that you have some experience and knowledge in the aviation industry. I am not picking a fight with you. I am only trying to help people understand more clearly the differences/benefits of both axial and centrifugal compressor designs.

So... here I go.

1. It is true that centrifugal compressors have higher pressure ratios on a per stage basis than axial compressors. In general/realistic use, the maximum centrifugal compressor pressure ratio per stage max out about 8:1 and the axial stage max out about 1.6-1.8 per stage. Just as a note: Most high bypass ratio fans are single stage designs with design pressure ratios in the 1.4-1.7 range. This does not take into account any benefit of ram compression. Note: For automobile applications, we typically want boost pressures between 5-25 psig which translates to total pressure ratios of 1.35 to at most 3.0. Without pushing things too hard... this could be accomplished with a single stage centrifugal compressor or 3-4 stages of axial compressor

2. Both axial and centrifugal compressors have efficiency islands that show peak efficiency in the design operating range and those efficiencies drop off as the compressor operating point moves away from the design condition. There is some opportunity to influence these islands through the stage loading of each design. Neither of these compressors is going to maintain high efficiency from "automobile" idle to max rpm.

3. I do not have the direct manufacturing experience but... most centrifugal compressors are hogged out of a single block of metal with a 5-axis CNC machine. Where I work, we typically make 3-5 of these compressors at the same time with a 5 cutter machine to improve productivity. General machining time is on the order of 30 hours for 5 units or approx 6 hours per wheel. In most cases these are titanium or nickel based alloys which influences the machining time. Most aerospace axial compressors use forged or individually machined blades which are then inserted through broached slots in the compressor disks or circumferential slots in the case for stators. However, some more recent designs have used "integrally bladed disks" so called blisks. These designs use the same type of 5 axis CNC machines as centrifugal wheels. One of the issues here is whether you can flank mill or whether you are required to end mill the blades. Flank milling is faster but reduces the complexity of the blade shape and thus may compromise the aerodynamic performance somewhat. Note: Since metal moves while you are cutting it... you make course cuts first and clean cuts later. In either event you are limited in cutter speeds because of blade deflection. I would expect this is more a problem with axial blades than centrifugal. However, both designs have this problem.

4. In general axial flow compressor designs have lower inertia than centrifugal designs. This is because the majority of the metal in an axial design is kept near the inner radius. The centrifugal wheel gets a fair amount of its compression from radius change and the diffusion that goes with it... this requires metal to move out in radius and results in increased inertia. Since I do performance modeling of both axial and centrifugal designs at a gas turbine company... I am very comfortable with this comment. You can tell me I'm wrong but that will not change the facts.

5. Guys, there are good reasons for using axial compressors and good reasons for using centrifugal compressors. In general, as the compressor pressure ratio gets higher and higher.... the air density increases.... and the flow area gets smaller. Think about what happens in an axial compressor as you move from front to the back. The blades get smaller and smaller. While the blade heights are being reduced... the tip clearances are not changing (tip clearances do not scale).... so the ability of the compressor to compress air efficiently is compromised. Because of this issue, there is a logical point where you would like to move to a centrifugal design. In general we would use corrected or referred flow calculations to decide the transition point between axial and centrifugal designs. With that said, all of the large aircraft engine companies use axial flow compressor designs because they make sense for large engines with high corrected/referred flows. Most small gas turbine manufacturers use a combination of axi-centrifs or centrifugal designs because it makes sense for the lower corrected/referred flow they are designing for.

6. In general, centrifugal compressors have wider operating range than axial flow designs. When centrifs are pushed into the stall region.. often times they become less efficient but they continue to pump air. This is influenced significantly by the backsweep angle of the blading in centrifs. Improved materials and analysis techniques have allowed centrif designers to provide centrifugal wheels that have very progressive stall behavior and still survive the stresses caused by the curved radial blades. Additionally, splittered entrance blades have served to improve airflow handling in the eye of the impeller.

7. So, if centrifs are cheaper and have wider operating range... why would you ever consider using an axial design. Well, I can think of a couple of reasons. First, centrifugal compressors typically have a higher lapse rate of airflow against speed than axial flow designs. Because of this, it may be possible to match the airflow versus speed behavior of the Renesis engine better with an axial compressor than with a centrif. Second, packaging, the axial flow design is smaller in diameter and generally tube shaped so it may be easier to find a place for it in the engine bay. Third, novelty, there aren't many axial flow designs out there and there is something to be said for being different.

Bottomline: I don't know yet which design makes the most sense for the Renesis. In fact, different people have different interests and desires. I'm here to learn what I can, to try and filter the information from the misinformation and to decide for myself what makes the most sense for me. While I do that, I'm trying not to inflame or placate too many people. I will encourage anyone who is willing to invest their own time and money to try and make performance improvements on our automobile. At the end of the day, I will chose which one, I think, has done the best job in that regard. Peace :)



"Centrifugal flow compressors are shorter than the axial flow compressors and becasue of their spoke like design they can accelerate air faster and immediatley diffuse it into the direction of flow.
Advantages are of centrifugal comps. are :-
1) High px. rise per stage, compression ratios upto 15:1 possible.
2) Good effiency over a wide rotational speed range, this is from idle to full rpm.
3)Simplicity of manafacture, relatively low cost.
4)Low weight
5)Low inertia loads aids spool up.
Disadvantages are:-
1) Large frontal area for a give airflow. 2) More than 2 stages impractical

Axial flow flow compressors require a large amount of stages to gain a high pressure rise, unlike the centrifugal compressor which has very high compression ratio's the axial flow can only manage a pressure rise of about 1.25 per stage. To gain a large compression u will havbe to add more stages, hence why most turbines have up to 13 stages of compression.
Some advantages are:-
1) High peak efficiencies from RAM AIR, created by its straight through design (N/A to RX8)
2) High peak pressures attainable by addition of extra stages.
3) Small frontal area
Disadvantages
1) Difficulty in manafacture and costs.
2) Relative high weight
3)Low pressure rise per stage 1.25:1
4) High inertia.
5) Poor effiencies at low speeds"

Great post Turbine_pwr! I hope I speak for most here on the board -- we really appreciate intelligent and useful information without all the BS and "I'm smarter than you are" attitude.

They keep scrubbing my milititant posts!! I do have alot of experince with turbines, on the maintenance side of things! Basically what u have said is pretty much what i said and i agree with u! Though! Im not sure axial flow comps are any good in this installation but at the end of the day as u say there are advantages and disadvantages to it and novolty factor.

They keep scrubbing my milititant posts!! I do have alot of experince with turbines, on the maintenance side of things! Basically what u have said is pretty much what i said and i agree with u! Though! Im not sure axial flow comps are any good in this installation but at the end of the day as u say there are advantages and disadvantages to it and novolty factor."They" is ME, and it's not just your posts. There is no reason to turn this thread into a flame fest. Check your PMs.

Some weasel looking git keeps doing it

Some weasel looking git keeps doing itYou don't respond to my PM, then you attempt to insult me. Bad idea. Bye bye.

i'll second that.

Some 1 ban surrey puma Admin please BAN HIM FOR BEING A TROLL

Thnx to Omicron my posting is fixed. It was my new security firewall.
Now I forgot what I needed to answer. I think the plumbing?
I intend to keep as much stock as possable. There is no reason to remove something that worked.

The engine doesnt just wake up someday and know it has a blower added. The engine thinks in terms of absolute pressure. It thinks you just drove below sea level. It doesnt know where the line is that we call zero. If you think of absolute gauges like in aircraft the 0 we use is 29.92 hg. so there is no line and you do not speak of vacuume as negative from zero. Car gauges have vacuume marked in terms of less from 0 like "I have 10 inches of vacuume."

Meaning you have 20 inches of pressure. still less then standaed at sea level but mesured as positive from absolut negative. Example: At 4000 ft elevation you have 25.84 inches hg. at 6000 you have 23.98 in hg abs. if you were reading an automotive gauge at those elevations it would still read 0. that's called gauge pressure. If you see PSIG. that iswhat it means. Pressure absolute and it would read the prior numbers.


So then why do we instantly think that when we go over this number that we must change everything. There will come a point due to the delta pressures that a gain can be had by tuning to the new operating pressure but I don't think you reach that point with street pressures. So we will try to keep all the advantage built into the stock system at great expense to Mazda.


13 If that is your picture next to your name then you're the best looking and most loyal member on the forum.


What am I doing with the blower you ask??
Well nothing for a few more days, the shop is apart while we make room for a new CNC lathe. Due this week. I'm also upgrading the test equipment. There are both 4 and 5 stage blowers ready to test. It takes awhile to get the test things working and in between we have to support the shop.

If I forgot anyones question remind me.

Richard

:cool:
Actually, that's me. Bureau13 is the guy who is my pet. He's OK, but he thinks I don't know about computers, so let's keep that part between you and me.

Skye



13 If that is your picture next to your name then you're the best looking and most loyal member on the forum.

Richard

Actually, I was wondering where you're planning on installing it... maybe replacing the accordian hose? If so, it may be pretty easy to deinstall before we take our cars in for warranty service at Mazda, and that would definitely be an advantage...

Some 1 ban surrey puma Admin please BAN HIM FOR BEING A TROLLWhat, you're worried about him giving the " *Puma " a bad name? LOL. He's gone, anyway - see the posts above yours. Although I wouldn't call him a troll per se, more someone who can't hold his temper.

Let's get back to thread guys...

I have a couple of questions... :p

I understand that the Mazda supercharged version of the RX8 that is under development was confirmed to be an electrically assisted one. Apparently, on this version at low RPM an electric motor assists the supercharger to produce boost (and torque), and at higher RPM the supercharger works in a normal way.

Can somebody please confirm this?

AND

What are the Pro's, and Con's of each of these systems (the electrically assisted Mazda supercharger, and this one?),

Which one would be more suitable for road use?,

What rwhp figures should we expect from each of these???...

Thanks.

I believe that was an electrically assisted turbo...wouldn't make much sense otherwise. Also, I'm not sure "confirmed" is as accurate as "rumored to be." I have no trouble believing they are doing some R&D on that, but I'm not ready to bet the farm we ever see it on an RX-8.

jds

RP and Guys,
Yes, thanks Omni for your sterilization. That cat was getting on my nerves.
I think Mazda knows it has too much car here to leave it alone for long. In some form the HP will increase. Look at the competition. Mazda will have to respond or eat crow.
RP I think yours is the best looking unit that I have seen and I also think(i think a lot) that its "matches" if you will, the ambience of this car. It's differant just like this car is differant from anything on the road. Most people I know would be VERY staisfied with 300hp or so at the wheel and dependability. There are a lot of good ,honest,hard working, smart people out there trying to get a FI unit on this car. My money is on Richard. The ecu is going to be the problem.
With the obious engine bay heat increase I wonder if there is anyway we can make the side vents actually functional? That would be cool. Anyone thinking we may be heading for some type of cowl induction?
olddragger

The side vents are FAKE!!!!!
And they are in a great low pressure area too.
IS there a way???
I think with all the heat everyone talks about someone would have looked at this.
Were they always just for looks or did Mazda put them there for their own option.

On another topic, wasn't it a hydraulic blower drive Mazda was looking at??

Omicron, did you ever find my pictures?? I can have ajax repost them.
Then I"ll tell you where the blower goes. You will probably be disapointed thogh. I doubt it will be a snap it in and out.

The side vents are real

Omicron, did you ever find my pictures?? I can have ajax repost them.Your pics are there, they just aren't displaying. Still looking into what's wrong.

it would be great to use those vents to exhaust all the heat. lets see them in stainless steel or poloshed in some way.

check to see if they're displaying now. The server I host from was apparently down.

It would be great to use those vents to exhaust all the heat. Let's see them in stainless steel or polished in some way.

The side vents are real, but I believe that grille makes it look otherwise faux. Perhaps making a shroud to guide the heat away from the engine bay may be in order?

Richard, have you decided yet how to mount the supercharger?

The side vents are real, but I believe that grille makes it look otherwise faux. Perhaps making a shroud to guide the heat away from the engine bay may be in order?

Richard, have you decided yet how to mount the supercharger?

Someone has posted recently that the plastic engine cover serves the purpose of redirecting airflow and heat down so that it passes through the vents...

Thank you for clarifying that Japan8 :).

RP and Guys,
Yes, thanks Omni for your sterilization. That cat was getting on my nerves.
I think Mazda knows it has too much car here to leave it alone for long. In some form the HP will increase. Look at the competition. Mazda will have to respond or eat crow.
RP I think yours is the best looking unit that I have seen and I also think(i think a lot) that its "matches" if you will, the ambience of this car. It's differant just like this car is differant from anything on the road. Most people I know would be VERY staisfied with 300hp or so at the wheel and dependability. There are a lot of good ,honest,hard working, smart people out there trying to get a FI unit on this car. My money is on Richard. The ecu is going to be the problem.
With the obious engine bay heat increase I wonder if there is anyway we can make the side vents actually functional? That would be cool. Anyone thinking we may be heading for some type of cowl induction?
olddragger


Eat what crow? This is what I have been saying for months. The 8 is a "new type" sports car... 4 door 4 seater. Does the 350Z have 4 doors or 4 seats? How about the s2000? Can you get leather interior in the Evo or STi? Does the 8 have AWD? While they are all japanese cars that is where the similarities end, and I don't believe that they make for true direct competition. G35c and 3 series are closer competition IMHO. Compared to them, the 8 looks just fine to me performance wise. Repeatedly Mazda keeps refering to the 8 in the same ways that I have. Combined with rumors of a 7... why FI the 8? Save it for the 7...

Now all the BS is gone, we want pics of it installed in the 8 and results.


Thanks for all your hard work :)

On another topic, wasn't it a hydraulic blower drive Mazda was looking at??

.

Allied Signal's Garrett HydraCharger?? I read about it in Nov 98 and haven't heard anything yet since then!

Maybe it's Visteon's electric VTES (Visteon Torque Enhancer System).

Then I"ll tell you where the blower goes. You will probably be disapointed though. I doubt it will be a snap it in and out.

I don't think many of us would think "snapping" a supercharger in and out would be a good idea anyhow. I'm sure this has the potential to cause a whole heap of problems.
When I put my one in; it's for good. :) I don't really care where it goes. I would kinda like to retain the factory engine covers tho... :D

And I think it would be really cool if we could make our side vents more functional...

RP and Guys,
Yes, thanks Omni for your sterilization. That cat was getting on my nerves.
I think Mazda knows it has too much car here to leave it alone for long. In some form the HP will increase. Look at the competition. Mazda will have to respond or eat crow.
RP I think yours is the best looking unit that I have seen and I also think(i think a lot) that its "matches" if you will, the ambience of this car. It's differant just like this car is differant from anything on the road. Most people I know would be VERY staisfied with 300hp or so at the wheel and dependability. There are a lot of good ,honest,hard working, smart people out there trying to get a FI unit on this car. My money is on Richard. The ecu is going to be the problem.
With the obious engine bay heat increase I wonder if there is anyway we can make the side vents actually functional? That would be cool. Anyone thinking we may be heading for some type of cowl induction?
olddragger
If mazda made this car with 300 to the wheels you have any idea what it would cost?Ive said it before and ill say it again,its alot more to it then just slapping a fi piece on this thing.Emissions is the number one problem.They had trouble passing this thing as it sits.Following number one major hurble are cost and reliability issues.This electric assist thing mazda has got cooking up may work well,but im sure a nice price tag comes with it.Compare this car to actually "cars in its class"acure tsx and toyota solara to name a couple.This car will never be a 7 unless you spend alot of cash.Its a nicely trimmed spirited daily driving car for me now and i like it better then i ever did.

Yes, if the factory went FI on the 8 they would do more than just bolt the kit on and retune the ECU. Just look at the MS MX-5. They have the engineering knowledge and capability to reinforce all the areas of the car that might otherwise flex and fail prematurely due to the added torque.

OTOH, as far as this car never being a 7 without buckets of cash, well, at some levels that is true. Let's face it - it will never be a 7 period, due to it's size & weight. But, the 8 does have a more rigid platform than the FD, and has (by all accounts) a newer, better rear suspension, and an incrementally improved front suspension, and brakes that are at least as good. So at some of the more fundamental levels, it has the potential to be a better high perfromance platform than the FD. It's just that if we do this ourselves we will probably find areas of the car that need replacing more often than the factory would find tolerable. Hopefully the Renesis won't be one of these areas. ;)

Yes, the 8 is great is it is. It would also be great with 300 hp, crank or wheel. Throw in a set of coilovers and the car would have the reflexes of a cheetah. Sounds good to me.

Ajax, They are back. I had no idea that it worked that way.

THX

Guys, Guys,
I guess I need to clarify what I was saying. I was addressing two differant things.
1- Mazda will increase the h/p somehow. The platform and capilbily of this car warrents it and the North American market will really like it. By how much I don't know.I know comparing the 8 to the z or to the sti is not fair. They are differant but performance is performance. Is it fair to compare a Mustang to a GTO? Or to a Corvette? No but it is done. Personnally I think the 8 is a much better car than any i have mentioned.
2- The after market guys would be satisfied(majority anyway) with 300 horses(even at crank) .FI is going to increase the heat under the hood and I bet those sidevents can be modified to help with that. I do know when the fan comes on(after turning the car off) I cant feel any heat coming out of those vents. It's all coming from under the car.
RP sorry for getting off the subject a little. I will now shut up!
olddragger

Guys, Guys,
I guess I need to clarify what I was saying. I was addressing two differant things.
1- Mazda will increase the h/p somehow. The platform and capilbily of this car warrents it and the North American market will really like it. By how much I don't know.I know comparing the 8 to the z or to the sti is not fair. They are differant but performance is performance. Is it fair to compare a Mustang to a GTO? Or to a Corvette? No but it is done. Personnally I think the 8 is a much better car than any i have mentioned.
2- The after market guys would be satisfied(majority anyway) with 300 horses(even at crank) .FI is going to increase the heat under the hood and I bet those sidevents can be modified to help with that. I do know when the fan comes on(after turning the car off) I cant feel any heat coming out of those vents. It's all coming from under the car.
RP sorry for getting off the subject a little. I will now shut up!
olddragger

RP, I think your project merrits lots of value... for the reasons of this mini-discussion. So please bear with me while I momentarily hijack this thread.

Look...
1. It doesn't matter if YOU and the high school kids down the street compare the 8 to a Ferrari. What matters is the information that Mazda gets from focus groups, surveys and to a lesser degree the media (car mags). Some people "compare" a Mustang to a Vette or a GTO, but everyone "knows" it isn't competition against them... at least the GT that is. The Cobra... well it was but wasn't, however according to May it will be in the future. The new Cobra Mustang will be aimed at the M3 market. Handling being a must, and Mustang power... we might have a winner here. But anyway as far as the NA market goes... um where was the 7 sold until 2002??? certainly not America.

2. FI may introduce more problems than just heat. But as far as that issue goes... JDM tuners all can change the temp that the fan kicks in at when they retune your ECU. Some offer a small "piggyback" that does that only. There is also gettting a better radiator...


So bringing this back to related to this thread. RP, people want more power. They always will. I see the aftermarket as the best bet for that with the 8, rather than waiting on Mazda. There is some potential here...so keep up the good work!

Ajax, They are back. I had no idea that it worked that way.

THX

The new pictures are back!!???... :) :cool: Where!?? :rolleyes: :D

Hey Richard, how about an update?

wasnt the electric assist a hydrogen thing?

wasnt the electric assist a hydrogen thing?
It was used on the hydrogen-powered RX-8 project car, but that doesn't mean that it's limited only to hydrogen-fueled engines.

I still think that Richard's engine-driven axial-flow blower is a good way to go, especially on a street-driven car. I seem to recall that the boost curve for an axial-flow supercharger is relatively constant throughout the operating rpm range, whereas the curve of a constant-displacement supercharger is high at low rpms and drops off with increasing speed, and that of a centrifugal unit (engine driven) is low at low rpms and rises with increasing speed. Do I remember correctly Richard? Exhaust-driven superchargers would also tend to start low and rise exponentially (especially if they are centrifugal blowers as most are).

With the torque/HP curve of the NA rotary, it would seem that the constant boost of the axial-flow blower would be ideal. I can't wait to see one of these in action!

Richard has posted before that the "boost curve" for his axial flow is near "linear", i.e. low boost at low RPM and high boost at high RPM with pretty much a stright line in between.

A engine driven centrifugal is apparently more exponential in the shape of the curve.

A PD, such as a twin-screw delivers constant boost over the entire RPM range, so if you set it up for 8PSI, you get 8 PSI at 2500 RPM and 8 PSI at 9000RPM. Then penalty is the amount of energy required to drive it, and the amount of heat generated. Some of these penalties apply to the axial flow as well, but I am led to believe that they are much less severe.

As the saying goes, you don't get something for nothing. The trick is working out the best fit for a certain purpose.

"Air is Free. Boost is your Friend." GTP

Thanks for the clarification Hymee. Apparently I misremembered after nearly 40 years. Either that or Hot Rod Magazine (or was it Popular Hot Rodding?) got it wrong, but I figure my memory is most likely at fault.

A PD, such as a twin-screw delivers constant boost over the entire RPM range, so if you set it up for 8PSI, you get 8 PSI at 2500 RPM and 8 PSI at 9000RPM.

It's this characteristic that makes this style of S/C perfect for an automatic.... Kenne Bell market this type, the trade off for the nearly constant boost is the fuel consumption. Size will be an issue too, that's why I like Richard's solution.....it's very compact.

Gomez.

The shop is back together. We are going to set up some new equipment for the test bench this weekend. We will run the four stage tests.

We still need to do other work. So it takes more time then all of us would like. If the world would go away for awhile I could get more done, but that will not happen.

We now have digital temp and airflow readings.
so it's back to work.

Excellent, thanks for the update Richard! But not to worry... as you can tell, if you're not here contributing daily, people will find other things to talk about... ;)

specs needed, the whp to price ratio will make the difference in the long run.........significant whp gains, reliability for street use, and decent price....youd have me sold

well you know how it goes...

it's powerful, it's cheap, it's reliable - choose two

well you know how it goes...

it's powerful, it's cheap, it's reliable - choose two

Hahaha....good one Centurian, like it, like it...........true though!

Wow...*bump*

Never seen this thread get so low on the page before =)

I wish I had a spare week to read this thread.

ok, WTF. I at last finish reading this thread. does anyone see what's wrong with that. Soooo, I propose we talk about about something else till we get any up date or Omnicron stop's us. I'll start, I saw a post about SSR's turbo kit for the 8. I visited the site, it said it was going to come august 1st. guess what day it is. here the site http://www.ssr-engineering.com/

I've talked to Richard. He has been very busy working on the project and hasn't had much time to be online. The more he is here, the less he is working on the supercharger.

RG, if you talked to him, acn you give us an update. course, it IS nice to know he's working hard on it.

Unfortunately I am not authorized to speak for Richard. The only thing I can tell you is that he is working on it and making progress. As he said before, the first unit he built made too much boost for the intended application so he is revising that. Beyond that I can't say anymore. He will get on here and post updates from time to time. They just aren't going to be daily updates. More along the lines of weekly or every few days.

Unfortunately I am not authorized to speak for Richard. The only thing I can tell you is that he is working on it and making progress. As he said before, the first unit he built made too much boost for the intended application so he is revising that. Beyond that I can't say anymore. He will get on here and post updates from time to time. They just aren't going to be daily updates. More along the lines of weekly or every few days.
Richard needs a PR man. I'm the man for the job :b

ok, WTF. I at last finish reading this thread. does anyone see what's wrong with that. Soooo, I propose we talk about about something else till we get any up date or Omnicron stop's us. I'll start, I saw a post about SSR's turbo kit for the 8. I visited the site, it said it was going to come august 1st. guess what day it is. here the site http://www.ssr-engineering.com/

SSR have their own thread(s). I am sure their product is good, but it's not what we all want. And it's super expensive. This thread is for the axial flow supercharger only. Let's leave it that way... :D

richard you must be workin hard, i hope, as we have not heard from u for a while. Hope its goin well

Just posting to subscribe to the thread so I can get the updates in my email :)

Ditto :)

Just posting to subscribe to the thread so I can get the updates in my email :)

That is cool, but you can subscribe to a thread without having to post. Just click on "Thread Tools" and subscribe!

Cheers,
Hymee.

Here's what I've been up to. We have been running some better tests with the two compressors. We now have flow equipment added to our test bench.
With what we have learned and using Hymee's chart there are some places that the compressor can be improved. I can bend the curve to a certain extent.

I can tell you one thing I have learned. A lot of people have said the rotary doesn't use the air the same as a piston engine. They are right. There will be a process that takes about two or three weeks to come up with a new compressor design.

Better to get it close now then after it is in the car. The good news is that it works, blows air and doesn't blow up. There is a lot of work to do on the ducting. I think there will be a lot of different designs from a lot of different tuners. I am happier then ever as to the match that will be had with my blower and the rotary.

What do those aftermarket intakes look like?? Are there any pictures to be had and design specs?? Would they be more compatable as far as room is conserned?

Richard

O glorious happy day!!! An update. free beers for all at my house!!! :)

O glorious happy day!!! An update. free beers for all at my house!!! :)

I'll have a Bundy and Coke if they are included. But you probably won't know what that is. So i'll settle for a Jack and Coke.

What do those aftermarket intakes look like?? Are there any pictures to be had and design specs?? Would they be more compatable as far as room is conserned?

Richard

they're generally a moulded length of tubing which locates a low restriction (low filtering efficiency) conical shaped air filter somewhere other than the stock location. that's about it.

here's AEM's marketing bullcrap link (javascript:%20newwin2('V2.htm','v2_demo',650,450) ;)

here is an Injen brand "race division" intake
http://www.injen.com/intake_page/rd_sample.jpg

nothing to it, they can be whatever you want, Richard.

And I thought intake ment they were replacing the primary composite part of the stock intake. Just the air cleaner adapter is no help. We need to make space in there for the blower. The cast aluminum part stays but up to there has to go custom

Is some way we can have a picture with the compressor in the car i know this is asking a shi.... load but i would love to see how this compressor the size of a damn wd40 can will look in the car PLEEZE i would love to see it
Doug thanks rp.

Richard Paul for president...he can then stimulate the economy by creating incentives for FI manufacturers :)

And We need to make space in there for the blower. The cast aluminum part stays but up to there has to go custom

I've been saying the same thing for a long time!

Is some way we can have a picture with the compressor in the car i know this is asking a shi.... load but i would love to see how this compressor the size of a damn wd40 can will look in the car PLEEZE i would love to see it
Doug thanks rp.
Ditto...

I've been saying the same thing for a long time!

Did you mean in general or just for FI applications? Or both?

I've been saying the same thing for a long time!

he's talking about the upper composite part of the intake manifold right?

Yes. I've been wanting to address this issue for forced induction use.

I would only remove the upper part of the manifold because it is in the way. It is a good part and there is a lot of work in something like that. On the other hand I beleive Rotarygod is thinking of making it a little longer so as to tune more low end into it.

That will take a bit of work all by itself and I for one would not want to have to do it. Lucky for me when supercharged there is a lot of freedom in a pressurized duct.
It will be a bunch easier then trying to tune some more torque from it unblown. RG I think your what they call a glutten. If that is spelled right.

I believe that there is so much science in the Mazda intake and exhaust tuning that only the most experienced and well equiped persons should attempt to improve on it. Persons other then those should check their egos first.

I have learned the very hard lesson not to think you are so smart that you can go into another man's area and beat him. Does anyone out there really think they could just get into a NASCAR engine and build one that would even qualify? That is not to bring into question something hard like Formula One.

No, the Mazda factory is the only place where the money and need exists to develop rotarys. Someone has as their signiture to the effect that if all or even a few car companys were working on this where would we be. Think about that, one tiny car company with limited resorces is the only place this has been studied. Independant tuners for sure help but they can't go in and design major changes to experament with. Only factorys can do that. So before you want to know why there arent a lot of aftermarket parts out there yet, think about it.


Next it is easier for me to tell you why there are no pictures of my s/c in an RX 8 yet. Before an actual car installation is attempted everything else has to be done. We have to have the packaging figured out and the parts built. We all know it will be a lot of work making the engine managment work. So before we take a perfectly usable car and reduce it to a lot of little parts on the bench we need everything else well along if not final.

If you want I will take your car apart and start fitting things while we do the rest of the development. I just can't tell you when all the other things will be done. Or if all the problems will ever be solved. That is when we will put your car back together. If you can live with that I will entertain taking it off your hands.

If your real good with computers you could morf (?) one in. That can be done so well you could never tell it was fake. I have a son who can do those things so watch me real carfully when I do post pictures.

As to the Weber question, I'm with you. I would love it if we could go back to the old days before absolutly everything was controled by some mini microprosseor. I have a bench with a bunch of compartmentised boxes on it. All containing hundreds of Weber tuning parts. Be nice to have a use for them. But alas you can never go home again. . Everything on the car from the time you open the door is in that black box. In the end of course we are all better off for it but I can still complain. There is no way the power and reliability of modern engines would be possable without the engine managment systems. In racing as well as road cars.

RAP

nice post you just explained why I and most of the people on this forum are eagerly waiting for you to do the hard part, so we can just bolt it on and zoom zoom.

RG I think your what they call a glutten. If that is spelled right.



Not quite sure what you mean. This is the closest thing I could find to "glutten".

Main Entry: glut·ton
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English glotoun, from Old French gloton, from Latin glutton-, glutto; akin to Latin gluttire to swallow, gula throat, Old English ceole
1 a : one given habitually to greedy and voracious eating and drinking b : one that has a great capacity for accepting or enduring something <a glutton for punishment>
2 : WOLVERINE 1a

Actually I want a new aluminum upper manifold for forced induction use. Putting composites under pressure scares me.

he means 1b RG. ;) thanks richard.

RG, I'm sure you can eat and drink with the best but for now I ment 1 b.

As to the manifold you will probably get it your way since the molds for a composite part is way out of the question for my volume of parts. On the other hand I'm not sure that it can't take low pressure. If there is a way I can keep it in the loop then we will test it for pressure and temp.

If anyone knows the exact material we can look up the numbers for it. It would tell you if it is worth testing. I've worked with engineering polimers that are almost as strong as aluminum. This is not that exotic of a composite but where it is should be studied

RAP

FWIW the srt-4 neon has a plastic IM

I believe that there is so much science in the Mazda intake and exhaust tuning that only the most experienced and well equiped persons should attempt to improve on it. Persons other then those should check their egos first.
...
I have learned the very hard lesson not to think you are so smart that you can go into another man's area and beat him...

... Think about that, one tiny car company with limited resorces is the only place this has been studied... [Way to go, Matsuda!!]

...alas you can never go home again. . Everything on the car from the time you open the door is in that black box. In the end of course we are all better off for it but I can still complain. There is no way the power and reliability of modern engines would be possable without the engine managment systems. In racing as well as road cars.

RAP
That's one hell of a quote!! I for one would wait, just in appreciation for the fact that the longer it takes, the more assured we will be that you could be producing a part that will fit performance and durability objectives such that many of us would want to reward you with a decent price. I can see how your efforts may possibly lead to a crowning achievement of your career and wish you God's speed, RAP, to the benefit and inspiration of rotary heads all, for hopefully a long time to come!

I'm not very patient but I don't know anything about tuning rotary engines so I am forced to wait. Take your time and I will gladly give you some business when you get your system out. Nobody else has anything that is functional at the time so your not missing business opportunities. As for the giving up my car thing, I want to sooo bad, but then I think about worst case scenario and shun the thought. It really is a hard argument but I love to drive too much and don't want my car too many miles away.

Keep up the good work!

Next it is easier for me to tell you why there are no pictures of my s/c in an RX 8 yet. Before an actual car installation is attempted everything else has to be done. We have to have the packaging figured out and the parts built. We all know it will be a lot of work making the engine managment work. So before we take a perfectly usable car and reduce it to a lot of little parts on the bench we need everything else well along if not final.

If you want I will take your car apart and start fitting things while we do the rest of the development. I just can't tell you when all the other things will be done. Or if all the problems will ever be solved. That is when we will put your car back together. If you can live with that I will entertain taking it off your hands.



RAP

I might be willing to volunteer my car for fitting purposes, seeing that I'm also from Chatsworth CA, but the incentive would have to be that once the fitting is complete, the unit stays on my car :D . PM me so that we can further discuss this.

-Alex

Just when you were ready to go back in the water!!
We needed a little more airflow then the first prototype produced.
That by itself wasn't a shock, we allowed for that.
But if it can go wring it will. After some close study there is a need for some passages to be reworked. This is to keep the airspeed constent.
This is the exit volute that has 5 of it's 6 sides machined. So it is a time consuming rework. I should say redesign as it cannot be reworked from an existing part.

These are some of the things that the axial flow compressor designer must pay closer attention to then say a positive displacment pump.

Just a little more work. Work, work, work
Don't know how long it will take. Design this week, machine program and manufacture, another week maybe two.

Anyone know the size of the throtle body on the RX 8???
Area and airflow at some pressure drop.

Just when you were ready to go back in the water!!
We needed a little more airflow then the first prototype produced.
That by itself wasn't a shock, we allowed for that.
But if it can go wring it will. After some close study there is a need for some passages to be reworked. This is to keep the airspeed constent.
This is the exit volute that has 5 of it's 6 sides machined. So it is a time consuming rework. I should say redesign as it cannot be reworked from an existing part.

These are some of the things that the axial flow compressor designer must pay closer attention to then say a positive displacment pump.

Just a little more work. Work, work, work
Don't know how long it will take. Design this week, machine program and manufacture, another week maybe two.

Anyone know the size of the throtle body on the RX 8???
Area and airflow at some pressure drop.
Always good to have an update.
Keep up the good work.

update please richard

1 question paul how much does teh actual thing way its so small looks like 3 pounds can you tell us.

update please richard

dude he posted 4 DAYS AGO!! give him some time for crying out loud. :rolleyes:

He's busy. He'll update maybe once or twice a week.

Sorry, my server has been out for three days now. Update: I just finished the new blower yesterday. It is a five stage with more flow and some bending of the curve. Have not tested it yet. There is an identical four stage unit being built also. That is what I am working on right now.

When they are both ready and the time and space is available the tests will get done. I'll see if I can get some pictures of the first and second models side by side. We shall call the newer one dash 2, so as to be sure of the evolution.

Also someone wanted to know the weight, it is 11 lbs +/-

Hope I didn't leave out anyone.
Richard

sweet! richard you own!

11 lbs?! Wow, that's far less than the GT3540R I wanted. Hope the project goes well, Richard. :)

Whenever RP posts its like Christmas.

christmas in august

just had a crazy thought (thanks to shelly's man)- could you combine this axialflow compressor with a turbine and make it an axialflow TURBOcharger? would there be any benfits or problems?

You just invented the jet engine.

cool!!! i knew there was an invention in that thought somewhere!! do you think i can get a patent on it?:) i would give you credit for naming it, though i think it was rather presumptuous of you to go around naming other's inventions :p do you think their would be any applications for this "jet engine" :rolleyes:

p.s. - "jet engine" is already taken we will have to name it something else :D

You just invented the jet engine.

"Zoom-zoom-zoom!" :D

just had a crazy thought (thanks to shelly's man)- could you combine this axialflow compressor with a turbine and make it an axialflow TURBOcharger? would there be any benfits or problems?

Indeed you did just invent the Jet engine.

But I did mention this concept, and asked if it had been in automotive use in past # 212 (page 15 of this thread):

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=440108&postcount=212

Near the end I mentioned some day dreaming during english classes about this...

Did you know a jet engine idles at about 60% RPM ??

For an interesting read, go look up the work Chrylser did on the Turbine Car.

http://www.turbinecar.com/top.htm

Cheers,
Hymee.

well as i said "jet engine" is already taken so we'll have to come up with something else to call it ;)

you know i had read your post but had forgotten until just now. perhaps there was a bit of it left in my brain when i had this epiphany earlier. so could this be driven by a turbine instead of a belt?

interesting read thanks Hymee!

*** BUMP *** RP, can you give us a little update?

You mean bump and prod. I haven't got any news worth printing just now. How about I go and take some pictures of the -1 vs -2 stages next to each other just to feed your hunger for info??

Please feed me! I want more!!!!

How about I go and take some pictures of the -1 vs -2 stages next to each other just to feed your hunger for info??

A single picture tells a thousand words... :D

pictures will do fine :)

That'd work! :D

I'm bored. Post a pic or two. Preferrably one with both an rx-8 and an FI component in it. If not, a naked chick will do.

I have pictures of some blower parts on the same roll of film as those of a naked lady. I will get them made to disc tomorrow. However, if I post the ones of my lady friend, Omicron will get mad at me.

What shall I do???

You can e-mail them to me!!!

post post post them all

omicron will forgive you,always go with the saying "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission"

I think RP has prima dona status on the board...this one thread probably drives enough traffic, and thus increased advertising boost, that he can do what he wants. :D

sure, i'm just gonna trot out my minor moderator status here and say "go for it" ;)... but i can't say that if i was your chick that i wouldn't beat you upside the head for putting pictures of me on the intarweb.

If you can get pictures of her posing with the supercharger components, I think we'd have a nice start on the official RX-8 Club Calendar.

jds

Good news and bad. You will get the pictures of the blower parts. But Terri says negative to her pics. She says all "car guys" are perverts. I guess that includes me, but then I already confessed to it.


I'll pick up the disc after work.

So when you say blower you mean supercharger... darn.

I'm not going to touch that statement.

I remember "biker" once being defined as one who, if Lady Godiva had made her ride on a motorcycle, could have told you the make and model of the bike, but not what she was wearing.

"You are who you ride"

I admit all "car girls" perverts. Can't speak to the male aspect.

Good news and bad. You will get the pictures of the blower parts. But Terri says negative to her pics. She says all "car guys" are perverts. I guess that includes me, but then I already confessed to it.


I'll pick up the disc after work.

Good that means you can post them. I'm a technical guy not a car guy!

OK, here are some shots showing the new compressor vs the first. As you can see we have added some volume to compensate for the fact that the rotary needs more air for a given HP.

Sorry about the pictures but you guys put the pressure on me, this is what you get in short order.

now the rotor

Sorry RG, you have too many 7's to claim "not a car guy"

Thanks muchly for the pics -- I got all excited seeing this 'eye candy'.

That's awesome Richard. :)

Sorry RG, you have too many 7's to claim "not a car guy"

I only have 1. Right now.

I have pictures of some blower parts on the same roll of film as those of a naked lady. I will get them made to disc tomorrow. However, if I post the ones of my lady friend, Omicron will get mad at me.

What shall I do???Simple... send them to me via PM and I'll, um, proof them. Yeah, that's it, proooooooof them. You can tell Terri it's ok, I'm a trained professional. :D

RG, the others tou had count too.
Omicron, I'll show her your post when she comes over.

Now for a fun shot. Why would a perfectly good program do this to an almost finished stator?

the finished rotor and stator for the 4 stage Rx 8 compressor.

Thats beautiful. I'm getting chills thinking about putting that in my '8 and hearing it scream.

You seem to have reversed the direction of rotation. Is this just to make installation on an RX-8 easier?

Now for a fun shot. Why would a perfectly good program do this to an almost finished stator?It's due to a little-known principle known as "the perversity of inanimate objects."

Geeezzz, I can't get away with anything. The reverse rotation unit is for the Honda. It is the same size as the dash 1 RX unit so I used it for the shot. It was apart and the Mazda unit one is not. In fact you can see it in the background.

Well the best I can do for you is "the imprint" that's all she said you can have.
But it is 200.8 and the limit size for posting is 200. Poor luck. I guess I could gr Ajax to post it.

I shall try that. He's up late you may still get it.

Richard said you'd all enjoy this:


And btw Richard, your email doesnt like to receive messages.

I think i see a vulva on the volvo

I think i see a vulva on the volvo

She was right about car guys and perversions. ;)

So are you planning on putting a filter of some sort in the intake line after the unit? Just in case one of those very sturdy looking blades travelling near the speed of sound after rapid positive/negative acceleration for who knows how many hours comes off.

I think i see a vulva on the volvo

Farken Farny quote of the day!!!

ROFLMAO!!!! Good one Silverarrow!

gsdev, one of the first calc's that you do when designing these things is to stress the blades. These happen to have a safety factor of 4. I have never had a problem, even when they were investment cast. Now they are billet unobtainium.

Hymee, e mail me the meaning of those letters. I guess they are letters cause you can't say it out loud.

Not doubting quality, just call me paranoid. Unless you are going to issues a warrantee that will encompass the engine. I would really like that. In fact, that is a much better idea than the filter.

Hymee, e mail me the meaning of those letters. I guess they are letters cause you can't say it out loud.

Rolling On the Floor Laughing My A$$ Off! It is just much shorter to say ROFLMAO

gsdev, why's everybody always picking on me. Think about it, these blades are grams. That means there is no energy in them. They have less then 2 psi against them. That is per sq inch. These are only .1 sq inch or less. So that's less then .2 lbs on it. 3 ozs. Why don't you think a heavy rotor out of a roots will come apart??
I don't know all of the aftermarket roots blowers are built but the GM types are castings.
They are larger in outside diameter then mine. There is much more mass out there then mine. They are much longer then mine. They have all their pressure on one surface.

So pick on them for awhile. I will give you a warrantee for one year on the compressor. Unless you drop something in it. Then any blower will fail. In fact mine will probably loose some blades but the engine can pass them. Can it pass a screw rotor?? I have seen where someone droped something into one of my V8 blowers and lost alot of blades. He had to pull the heads because some got stuck under a valve or two. But nothing was damaged. A valve job and on your way. You think that would happen with any other compressor???

So pick on them.

I once had a 8-71 blower on my drag boat and it somehow failed. I needed a new block, one head, one rod, a set of pistons plus the blower.

Richard said you'd all enjoy this:


And btw Richard, your email doesnt like to receive messages.

It would be a lot easier with her pants off.

-Mr. Wigggles

gsdev, why's everybody always picking on me. Think about it, these blades are grams. That means there is no energy in them. They have less then 2 psi against them. That is per sq inch. These are only .1 sq inch or less. So that's less then .2 lbs on it. 3 ozs. Why don't you think a heavy rotor out of a roots will come apart??
I don't know all of the aftermarket roots blowers are built but the GM types are castings.
They are larger in outside diameter then mine. There is much more mass out there then mine. They are much longer then mine. They have all their pressure on one surface.

So pick on them for awhile. I will give you a warrantee for one year on the compressor. Unless you drop something in it. Then any blower will fail. In fact mine will probably loose some blades but the engine can pass them. Can it pass a screw rotor?? I have seen where someone droped something into one of my V8 blowers and lost alot of blades. He had to pull the heads because some got stuck under a valve or two. But nothing was damaged. A valve job and on your way. You think that would happen with any other compressor???

So pick on them.

I once had a 8-71 blower on my drag boat and it somehow failed. I needed a new block, one head, one rod, a set of pistons plus the blower.

A word of advice.

Even if you think someone is picking on you, just answer the question (as you have) and don't let them get under your skin.

Keep it short and sweet.

-Mr. Wigggles

Mr wiggles, first she is a horse person, those are chaps. Second, I was kidding, it was like the old song "Charlie Brown."
I wasn't letting him get under my skin. If I were that sensitive I'd never be able to do this. Can you imagine how many times I've heard "if it's so good, how come no one has done it before?"
That's funny, now that I think about it no one on this forum has asked that. Must be an advanced group of people. Of course they are, they get that question themselves don't they. Re: rotarys.

I'm having a good time here, no complaints about the members of this forum. Exept that they want to look over my shoulder every day. I kinda like that too. It's a complement.

Ya'll are hiding women pics in this thread!!?

That pic was posted on the funny pics thread like 2 days ago :p

Richard said you'd all enjoy this:


And btw Richard, your email doesnt like to receive messages.