is there any other type of dog? I like Jack Russels--dont climb as much as Beagles --so easier to keep in but hey--
sure are a sight to see tracking. Fun dogs. Whats the old saying--"the more people I met--the better I like my dogs." present company excluded of course--.

Trying to get a rock solid fuel delivery system done--I track about 3-4 x's per year and fuel stavation happens and is a concern. With the na version--no real damage. Would it be a major concern with an afsc rotary? Increase capacity pump--conversion to a return type system from what i understand doesnt guarantee to solve this fuel starvation issue as it is a charateristic of our saddlebags. I really dont want to do a surge tank.
Working on this
olddragger

Richard : any chance you will be supplying outside US ?
NZ for instance - you know we are allies right ?

:kiss:

Richard : any chance you will be supplying outside US ?
NZ for instance - you know we are allies right ?

:kiss:

Yes of course we will be supplying product down under, we do it now with shifters.
We don't know yet if there are any differences with the right hand drive cars. We will check that out though.
I am aware we are allies and we appreciate that.

Your in the land of Burt Munro, a man I met at Bonneville when I was 18 and still remember him. He made me think highly of Kiwis ever since. Then after that there were lots of your cousins on the race circuit, known for their hard work ethics.
Those guys are famous for working all night long, days in a row.
I remember famously one bloke we called Wombat. He had a tee shirt that said "Wombat eats trees and leaves."

I remember famously one bloke we called Wombat. He had a tee shirt that said "Wombat eats trees and leaves."

lol - think it would have said "Wombat eats roots & leaves" !

You're probably right, it was a long time ago.

very old Aussie/Kiwi joke that one :)
of course the kiwi version being "Typical Kiwi male - eats roots & leaves "

um... "the panda eats shoots & leaves" is 10x better... :D:

same thing :)

Anyone know off the top of their head what Autox class an AFSC RX8 would be in?

Street Mod - SM..... You'd probably be running against modded EVOs and WRXs.... I think it'd be a fun race...

is there any other type of dog? I like Jack Russels--dont climb as much as Beagles --so easier to keep in but hey--
sure are a sight to see tracking. Fun dogs. Whats the old saying--"the more people I met--the better I like my dogs." present company excluded of course--.

Trying to get a rock solid fuel delivery system done--I track about 3-4 x's per year and fuel stavation happens and is a concern. With the na version--no real damage. Would it be a major concern with an afsc rotary? Increase capacity pump--conversion to a return type system from what i understand doesnt guarantee to solve this fuel starvation issue as it is a charateristic of our saddlebags. I really dont want to do a surge tank.
Working on this
olddragger

RP, olddragger ask you about our full pump which im also concerns me, even do mazda chage my fuel pump once after about 3 trips or 1/2 hour of driving my/our cars then to have fuel starvation when the heat soaks all components.

Well I have managed it.

I have talked about this SC so much to my wife, that when the subject comes up shes doesnt even object, she just says "so when you get your SC"....

I love my wife.

RP what is your thoughts on this fuel issue? Duel pumps? surge tank? Baffling?
Saddlebags will always give delivery issues on a road course when only one pump is used.
How hard is it to crack this tank?
olddragger

I can't wait to get this unit - Finally a 1080P DLP projector !!!!!

Oh wait... I'm in the wrong message board!!!!

I guess I got confused since both of these toys I'm waiting to be released are around the $4000 price level. But which to get first????

^ the SC of course

yeah man! SC!!! and by the time you have ur AFSC running, the price for the 1080p DLP projector could be halved already (yeah a little extraggration, but u know.. technology...) then you can have BOTH!
________
Glass bong (http://glassgallery.tumblr.com)

well i dont know- too much gatorade for instance- is their such a thing? it perhaps could upset your stomach

water , on the other hand, kills http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A9158-2003Oct23?language=printer

The guy who cleaned the pool at my old residence nearly died of a Potassium overdose from drinking too much Gatorade.

Is been so quiet here for a while. Any news on the AFSC?

Ok, right now we are cutting parts for production compressors. We have orders in for minimal parts that are coming from outside suppliers. the reason for that is to test run a few kits and see if there are any field issues. We hope to do a beta test install next month and write the installation instructions from that car. Our car is too prototype as we changed so many things.

I'd love to tell you that we have the reflash ready but I can't, it's still a work in progress. I did tell you that it is in a car and has the ability to change perameters.

When we get the beta install done I'll get you pictures. That will show the production parts. Just how it will look in your car.

Ok, right now we are cutting parts for production compressors. We have orders in for minimal parts that are coming from outside suppliers. the reason for that is to test run a few kits and see if there are any field issues. We hope to do a beta test install next month and write the installation instructions from that car. Our car is too prototype as we changed so many things.

I'd love to tell you that we have the reflash ready but I can't, it's still a work in progress. I did tell you that it is in a car and has the ability to change perameters.

When we get the beta install done I'll get you pictures. That will show the production parts. Just how it will look in your car.


thanks for the note richard, glad all is going well..

btw,, thanks for the quick button service. way more than expected.

beers :beer:

woohoo! rock on RP! this is where the real fun begins...:)

I think you should do a test kit for NZ - to test the SC in a different environment to the US . I know someone who can help with that RP....... :rock:

I think you should do a test kit for NZ - to test the SC in a different environment to the US . I know someone who can help with that RP....... :rock:

funny,

i think nz = fla...

nice try. :spank:

beers :beer:

Damn..... I wish I was close enough to be a beta tester....

Sounds awesome... Still excited!!!

Great I can hardly wait to see the installation instructions. I’m going to have to saving for a kit.

I do have one question. I know it has been discussed that there will not be more than one pulley for different boots. But I was wondering how hard it would be to customize the pulley for those of US that live at 5000 feet? Could a different pulley be installed to create the same boost at 5000 feet as it would normally at sea level?

Could a different pulley be installed to create the same boost at 5000 feet as it would normally at sea level?

Got to be careful there because what happens if you take a drive to a lower elevation…..


Possible over boost condition.


Also you would now have an increase in output temps (due to higher compression ratio/ turbine speed) that may warrant some sort of air charge cooling system (water injection).

I have an idea for a device that would be able to control final boost levels independent of turbine speed unfortunately I will not be testing it until I can get a AFSC installed and running. Will be testing the unit on a standard AFSC (8psi max) to see if I can control boost levels to not go above say 6 (just picked a number) then will have a custom pulley made so the AFSC will say boos up to 10psi and see if I can regulated boost levels to say 8psi.

Got to be careful there because what happens if you take a drive to a lower elevation…..

I thought about that and I think you would just keep the original pulley and swap it out when you go on a trip. I know not the best solution but most of the time my driving is around town where the altitued does not change much.

Richard - if the flash doesn't get finished before the kits are ready to ship would you consider selling kits without it to people who have interceptors or EMU's and are willing to get it tuned?

The only problem is, he tried it with an int-x and it didn't work well apparently. I'm not sure if they ever found out what the problem was or what.

I thought about that and I think you would just keep the original pulley and swap it out when you go on a trip. I know not the best solution but most of the time my driving is around town where the altitued does not change much.
if im not mistaking it was told that the rx8 does not come with altitute flash been any differnet that sea level, so when it is flash for boost it will compensate just the same (remember is a smart little thing we have in there)

I am not going to look it up but I have been following this thread since page one. I believe RP wanted plug and play and that is why the interceptor would not work. The interceptor is far from plug and play. He did get it working with Dave's(guitarjunkie) help, but pulled it back off because he could not afford to sell it like that.

Again the point of this project is to make a true affordable bolt on with no sacrafices. If you want 400 horsepower this kit is not for you. If your car is your daily driver and you want a bit more power at an affordabe (relatively) price this is it. I could be off but I think this is how he was marketing it from the get go.

I have no affiliation with RP, in fact never met him. I just read everything and have a good memory.

axial flow lol


http://www.metacafe.com/watch/310214/300_km_h_it_is_real/

:eek:

it was suppose to be a reflash or something of the stock ecu...

i think but don't quote me.

...We hope to do a beta test install next month and write the installation instructions from that car....

When we get the beta install done I'll get you pictures. That will show the production parts. Just how it will look in your car.

YES! :boink: YES! :boink: YES! :boink:

Can't wait Richard!

Probably a noob question/suggestion but here it goes. For high elevation people could doing the small pulley but adding a blow off valve to prevent over pressurization work for them?

Just thought I'd add my 2 pesos, the old value one's not the new(ish).

Note: RCW someone, I don't remember who, says they have an idea on how to control the AFSC boost, but can't test till he has a kit in hand. He has given no further details that I know of.

Interceptor and Greddy have both been used on this SC (trust me, I saw it in person) Richard chose to go a different route for many reasons and one of them was definitely cost. $1,000 + for the Interceptor would put the cost of this unit beyond it's original intentions. Not only that, but not everyone here has the skill to be tuning maps on that system or the Greddy.

Can't wait to see the finished product Richard, keep up the good work. Maybe I can come by again and take some pics for you to post on here. Lemme know.

Richard the Int-X that you sold a while back... what map was on it?

I know someone that has it, could they be bumped up the list for a AFSC setup? :)

Probably a noob question/suggestion but here it goes. For high elevation people could doing the small pulley but adding a blow off valve to prevent over pressurization work for them?

Just thought I'd add my 2 pesos, the old value one's not the new(ish).

Note: RCW someone, I don't remember who, says they have an idea on how to control the AFSC boost, but can't test till he has a kit in hand. He has given no further details that I know of.

'

That’s actually me and its not a pop off valve or blow down unit because using both of these system requires more "work" power form the crank and adds additional heat to the compressor charge.

I had that idea a long time a go and sent them on to RP and he corrected me in my ways of appopraching his AFSC design. Got to get rid of the turbo/supercharger ways of thinking when working with a AFSC.

The system I am thinking of does not increase the charge temp or increase the input power from the crank (except where required for additional boost profile in the lower rpms).

The system will actually increase the compressor efficiency slightley can’t expand on that fact to much or it might give away the idea.

The "idea" has undergone a patent search and while there are some other products that are very similar to this one there is nothing stated in those patents for the particular application on a motorized vehicle. So until I am able to prove my idea with an actual piece I am going to keep my mouth shut on the actual design. Form the patent searches the “idea” would be able to be manufactured and sold with out infringing on another patent but may not be far enough off from those other patents to get new one for this specific use.

Its one of those things after seeing it you hit your self on the forehead and say why did I not think of that its so simple.


The big delay is I am waiting on a AFSC for the S2000 all though the idea will work on any car MAF or MAP.

RICHARD Originally Posted by olddragger
is there any other type of dog? I like Jack Russels--dont climb as much as Beagles --so easier to keep in but hey--
sure are a sight to see tracking. Fun dogs. Whats the old saying--"the more people I met--the better I like my dogs." present company excluded of course--.

Trying to get a rock solid fuel delivery system done--I track about 3-4 x's per year and fuel stavation happens and is a concern. With the na version--no real damage. Would it be a major concern with an afsc rotary? Increase capacity pump--conversion to a return type system from what i understand doesnt guarantee to solve this fuel starvation issue as it is a charateristic of our saddlebags. I really dont want to do a surge tank.
Working on this
olddragger

i'm putting an inlet fogging system on my AFSC... on our gas turbines at work we can get an extra 10-15% power output with a little water

i'm putting an inlet fogging system on my AFSC... on our gas turbines at work we can get an extra 10-15% power output with a little water


wow,

that is going to shake this thread up!!!

beers :beer:

i'm putting an inlet fogging system on my AFSC... on our gas turbines at work we can get an extra 10-15% power output with a little waterI can't even begin to tell you how bad an idea that is in this application.

shhh let him try

Form the patent searches the “idea” would be able to be manufactured and sold with out infringing on another patent but may not be far enough off from those other patents to get new one for this specific use.

Thanks alot for the correction deppenma. I really under stand the whole patent issue.

If it's far enough from other patents that it doesn't infringe you can get a patent. The downside is the cost. If there is no patent about using it on a car or truck then you can probably get a patent. Hell even if it's for using it on a truck but not in a sport setting you still might be able to get a patent if you worded it correctly.

If you decide not to file for a patent at very least use the poor man's patent. Write out your patent / idea get it notarized. Seal it as best you can mail it to yourself. Then never open that package, keep it in a water tight bag with some of that stuff that absorbs moisture. Inside a water tight box(ditto with the moisture stuff).

At least then you have something. But not nearly as good as a real patent.

i'm putting an inlet fogging system on my AFSC... on our gas turbines at work we can get an extra 10-15% power output with a little water

Wouldn't it be better to separate the Hydrogen and oxygen first and inject the gas mix upstream of the AFSC? I could be horrible wrong... :Freak_ani

separating the hydrogen and oxygen takes power which the heat produced by the engine takes care of.

Storing it would be one issue and implementing the distribution of it would be another...

Ah, I see 4YtS. Thanks a lot. :wavey:

shhh let him try
that made me lol.. i dont know why

that made me lol.. i dont know why

me too... :hahano:

I can't even begin to tell you how bad an idea that is in this application.


What will happen ?

What will happen ?
Maybe it might harm the axial flow supercharger if one fogs before the supercharger (water droplets on fast spinning aluminum blades), but it shouldn't do any harm after the supercharger.

Since adiabatic compression does increase temperature even with a compressor efficiency of 100% and since in this application there is no intercooler, injecting water/methanol will reduce intake temperature and thus increase air density after the supercharger and at least lead to some increase in power which should especially be noticed on warmer and dry days. In addition, on hot days it would also help cooling efficiency overall and definitely reduce risk of detonation.
The only drawback I see is: Too much internal cooling with water injection could possibly slow down burn rate. Slowing down burn rate will reduce power as well - particularly on rotary engines.

Why would water before a supercharger do any harm? You can run fuel before a supercharger or turbo with no harm to the blades. The old Latham units ran carbs before the blower.

If it's far enough from other patents that it doesn't infringe you can get a patent. The downside is the cost. If there is no patent about using it on a car or truck then you can probably get a patent. Hell even if it's for using it on a truck but not in a sport setting you still might be able to get a patent if you worded it correctly.




Is all a play on words some times when it comes to patents.

Its one of those things where some1 sits on there patent waiting for someone like me to get something out there that works really well and then I show up one day at the house and bam there is a court order to show up.


Then the "other guy" says that his previous wording includes applications such as cars and trucks.
Then it’s just a madder of which person has the best lawyers.

Once I build and test a couple devices I will at least try to get a separate patent just no guaranty in this particular instance.

My business partner in this thing is very versed in the patent process as he all ready has a lawyer on retainer to protect his multiple patents on electrostatic speakers.

Why would water before a supercharger do any harm?
I don't think it necessarily would have to do any harm, but I just remember reading a comment where one dripped water directly onto the compressor wheel of a turbocharger and it made surface of the compressor wheel rough after a few month. Why is not clear to me either. (But who knows, maybe there was sand in the water.)

Coefficient of linear expansion.

Coefficient of linear expansion.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. The water will have the same temperature as the incoming air. Only under extreme circumstances (very dry and warm air and complete evaporation of a substantial amount of injected water on blades) temperature of blades would drop considerably below inlet air temperature, but this is not very likely and even if it could happen I doubt it would drop the temperature to a level where the compressor couldn't operate anymore.

Although theoretically feasible, I haven't read of a water injection application where they actually managed to drop the air temperature after the supercharger below the surrounding air temperature.

Think blade clearance...

Think blade clearance...
I know, this is why posted this:
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. The water will have the same temperature as the incoming air. Only under extreme circumstances (very dry and warm air and complete evaporation of a substantial amount of injected water on blades) temperature of blades would drop considerably below inlet air temperature, but this is not very likely and even if it could happen I doubt it would drop the temperature to a level where the compressor couldn't operate anymore.

Although theoretically feasible, I haven't read of a water injection application where they actually managed to drop the air temperature after the supercharger below the surrounding air temperature.

In order to create blade clearance you need a significant temperature drop directly on the blades, which is why I posted the above and explained why this is unlikely.

I can't discuss this any further. You'll understand if and when you get your hands on one.

I don't think it necessarily would have to do any harm, but I just remember reading a comment where one dripped water directly onto the compressor wheel of a turbocharger and it made surface of the compressor wheel rough after a few month. Why is not clear to me either. (But who knows, maybe there was sand in the water.)


Aircraft have a product called erosion tape for the leading edge of wings. Water hitting them at high speed dulls our aluminum leading edges in one flight. Running water carved out the Grand Canyon. Turbine blades are normally made of high strength alloys, But they erode as well.

John

Thanks John for this information. This is what I thought the reason would be as well. (But I wasn't 100% sure whether you can indeed provoke erosion without any addition of sand particles as well).

I can't discuss this any further. You'll understand if and when you get your hands on one.
Me neither. You'll understand when you read what I wrote.

while i was somewhat joking about adding inlet fogging to my AFSC (that i don't have)... its rediculous to say it can't be done as its done all over the place in large axial flow compressors in the power industry.

you can go "dry compression" or "wet compression". With dry compression you raise the humidity of the incomming air to 100% humidity - meaning your adding a specific amount of water (in a fine mist form) where it evaporates and completely saturates the air before it even hits the compressor blades. No additional wear on the blades occrur since your just putting really humid air into the compressor. You typically can reach 100% compressor efficiency with this strategy.

Wet compression you add even more water - in this case the amount you add is determined by your specific compressor design. The air heats up as it gets compressed with each stage and the air can actually hold more and more water with every stage - so you figure out how much water the air holds and add the amount it takes to saturate the air after the second to last compressor stage and use the last stage to superheat the air as an insurance policy against putting an incompressable fluid into something that will try to compress it. Compressor efficiencies of 120% can be reached with this strategy, but excessive wear on the leading edge of blades can be experienced (especially if you have large droplets).

We are not talking about any "general" axial flow compressor here. This is very specific.
I am not at liberty to discuss why this won't work beyond what I have said here.

The 2 big problems i see with the adding water are:

1. A complete or at least major redesigned of the AFSC. You guys want this asap right?

2. If would defeat the KISS idea behind it.

Again, just my 2 peso's worth (old valuation not new)

Earlier in the thread (maybe years ago :rofl: ) RP was going to attempt to add a fuel injector before the axial flow compressor. I know gasoline and water have different properties, but now I wonder which difference is the culprit.

Oh I was talking about the staged water injection idea.

a fuel vapor system would be pretty cool. But I understand they are a pain to engineer properly and emissions could be a problem.

I don't know squat about water injection :)

Any chance anyone could give me an update on the super C or at least direct me to the right page? I really dont want to read 250 + pages. :Freak_ani :cwm27:

Any chance anyone could give me an update on the super C or at least direct me to the right page? I really dont want to read 250 + pages. :Freak_ani :cwm27:

Hi Cavey wavey....

The AFSC is nearly ready (yay!) and is undergoing final fitment and tuning testing.

It should hopefully be ready after Xmas in the US and is a "fire and forget" style bolt on kit, which should provide a nice power boost and torque improvement, but not Uber huge power.
Its intended for daily driver applications. It wil come with a reflash tune, so will not need external engine management.

hope this helps..(and is fairly accurate!)

1. A complete or at least major redesigned of the AFSC. You guys want this asap right?
As long as you inject water AFTER the supercharger it won't affect its operation.

I know gasoline and water have different properties, but now I wonder which difference is the culprit.
Water has 6 times the latent heat of gasoline. This means one spoon of water requires 6 times more heat to evaporate than 1 spoon of gasoline and this again means water will cool the intake air 6 times more. Also by injecting additional gasoline to cool the intake charge you will eventually reach an air/fuel ratio below 12 and this will reduce power. With water injection there's no reason to enrich the air/fuel ratio. Besides water is cheaper than gasoline.
The only drawback is that the overall system is more complex and you have to remember to fill up a water reservoir.

Hi Cavey wavey....

The AFSC is nearly ready (yay!) and is undergoing final fitment and tuning testing.

It should hopefully be ready after Xmas in the US and is a "fire and forget" style bolt on kit, which should provide a nice power boost and torque improvement, but not Uber huge power.
Its intended for daily driver applications. It wil come with a reflash tune, so will not need external engine management.

hope this helps..(and is fairly accurate!)

Hay now! No one calls me Cavey wavey without Dinner and a movie first! :spank: :cwm27:

Thanks for replying so fast though! I am sure many have asked so by all means direct me to the page but will there be a higher boost application in the works? :Freak_ani

As long as you inject water AFTER the supercharger it won't affect its operation.

Correct. That is part of my point.

I've read about injecting water before the SC on roots style blower to increase the sealing and increase compression. because of the fine clearances too much water becomes a problem.

Using water nozzle rigs like these (about 3/4 the way down the thread) in the mouth of the 'charger would help lessen the impact of the water droplets hitting the blades: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=838

EDIT: Actually, I just looked at pics of the inlet to refresh my memory, and it's a side-inlet opening...so this wouldn't really help at all. Nevermind :-)

Hay now! No one calls me Cavey wavey without Dinner and a movie first! :spank: :cwm27:

Thanks for replying so fast though! I am sure many have asked so by all means direct me to the page but will there be a higher boost application in the works? :Freak_ani

Its so easy a caveman could do it!

I can only tell you what I know about water injection. I'm not against it, but there are some things to consider. First comparing it to a turbo is a little iff'y. This is due to the fact that in a turbo the mixture centrifuges itself out of mixture. The liquid being heavier runs out onto the scroll and needs to be atomized again.

We have had great success with fuel before the compressor because it gets homoginized by hundreds of blades traveling hundreds of MPH. The mixture gets very mixed almost to solution if that were possible. In the past we have seen no effect on the blades. The reason there may be a better environment for the blade here is that in airplanes they run at peak or near to efficiency (read RPM) and we rarely see that speed and only for a short time. Most of auto engine operation is done at less than half speed.

Whatever the reason I don't see it as a problem. I do like the idea of misting it into the inlet, anyway it can't hurt. After all that is how the gasoline was after it came from a carb or t-body injector. When I was thinking of water/alki injection I was thinking of using an injector nozzle. It doesn't matter with this compressor if you inject it in the side or center, it gets mixed.

Can it increase the efficiency? I suspect yes it can. Besides lowering the temperature it might seal the tip clearance somewhat. We are not talking about a hose stream here only a small amount. As long as you are doing it you should use a 50/50 mixture with methanol.

My only experience with this comes from the racing P-51 Merlins. These had water/alki injection in both the manifolds and the scroll of the supercharger.
Zeuschel has gone to the big race track in the sky now and I can't ask him what the trade off was betrween the two. All I remember is that there was plumbing for both. Just remember they were running 40-50 psi in those things. Also they only needed them to live for an hour. That is not the same conditions as your road car.

A little added info for some of you, Z tried nitrous a few times. The fact is that this is where the whole idea came from. When Dave got surplus engines some of them had a bunch of tubing all over the place going to the ports. After examining the microfilm at Langly AFB he found out about nitrous. Both the German and English studies were about the same, 5 lbs of nitrous per min added 100 hp. It doesn't make any difference if you burn it in a Merlin or a lawnmower it's 100 hp per ~5lbs.

The story goes on as he did not use it first in the Mustangs, he tried it in drag boat hemi's. Remember now, no one knew this stuff existed except dentists. So was it legal in gas class or not? His boats used it and they called them "Button Motors" as long as they were just rumors. It got so obvious that he had to tell the sanctioning body. But that first system was a pair of tubes running under the carbs in a spacer block. That type of system is still used.

But to get on with it they tried it on the race planes only to find it too volatile. It just blew up too many engines. In war it was only used for split seconds, in racing they needed more time. Interestingly it took bottles the size of oxy welding units to run a race. In addition he ran an extra nitrogen bottle to keep the pressure the same for the entire contents. In cars they just use the nitrous pressure and as it runs down, the mixture gets richer. In the end he just gave up the nitrous and upped the blower pressure. With that, Stilleto held the closed course record for years.

To counter that theory "Rare Bear" runs nitrous. I know this because some of the components were built in my shop.

Fred, how about that for one finger.

You probably started typing that a week ago!

Whatever the reason I don't see it as a problem. I do like the idea of misting it into the inlet, anyway it can't hurt. After all that is how the gasoline was after it came from a carb or t-body injector. When I was thinking of water/alki injection I was thinking of using an injector nozzle. It doesn't matter with this compressor if you inject it in the side or center, it gets mixed.

glad to see i'm not off my rocker :cool:

I'm going to check into see if there is any increased compression with water injection from better sealing. I don't believe so but i'm not sure... air outlet temps are definately decreased though

sorry if it's answered but:

-It works fine with race midpipe?
-SC needs special strut bar?


Thank's

sorry if it's answered but:

-It works fine with race midpipe?
-SC needs special strut bar?


Thank's

1 it is not out yet, but no reason it would not. but no testing has been done..

2 it is going to come with the kit...

beers :beer:

Hey Richard, do you attend the Reno races? I've never been, but read all about them every year in Air Classics. Great stuff on the racing engines!

Hopefully my father and I will make it out there in the next two years...

hey umm... i dont mean to be impatient, but whats the progress on the supercharger? is it ever going to come out?

glad to see i'm not off my rocker :cool:

I'm going to check into see if there is any increased compression with water injection from better sealing. I don't believe so but i'm not sure... air outlet temps are definately decreased though

no compression gains... only much lower compressor outlet temps

A RP a friend of mine owned Stilleto. He said he could only use 50% power for takeoff or it would groundloop. At full boost he was getting 3000hp. What a machine.

John

A few more points regarding water injection.
Plain water has the advantage that it can cool the intake charge more than water mixed with methanol and thus further increase air density. However water mixed with methanol has a few advantages:
- it doesn't freeze
- it doesn't grow algae
- it reduces surface tension of liquid and improves evaporation. (This might be less important with an efficient 'nebulizer'.)
- air can be saturated with water (rainy day) but this will never be the case with methanol (otherwise there would be other things to worry about). However, even when it rains heated air after SC can still evaporate water.
- it can substitute gasoline and further reduce detonation risk. (However in this application boost is obviously too low to worry about this and if too much methanol is added without increasing air fuel ratio it will run too rich - since methanol as opposed to water will burn oxygen).

Until the 70's passenger air liners were also using water injection on their jet engines in order to increase thrust at take off (= reduced temperature = increased air density = more mass flow = thrust). However passenger air liners from today have turbofans with a much higher by pass ratio and thus generating significantly more thrust without needing to increase air density (and needing to carry an additional watertank including water injection system).

probably gonna get flamed for this cuz i dont feel like searching through the 300pages.. (this thread gets really off topic lol...)

this is estimate at 240whp, correct? @ what boost level?

also in regards to richard pauls post... does this mean it will be safe to run nitrous with the AFSC? so that 5lbs of nitrous and the kit will put us at approx 300-350whp?

Any word if the ECU flash will be USA specific and therefore this kit will only work on US spec cars?

to piggy back on Lil benNy's comment... i have no desire to read the last couple hundred pages and pick up where i left off.. is it possible for anyone who has kept up to recap the basics? such as release estimates, cost guesses, whp expected.. basically i want to know if it is worth it to catch up on all the reading, or just be very satisfied with pettits s/c and stick with waiting for it to release in couple months

The bottom line is, nothing is finalized until the kit is released.

1) Eventually
2) Nominal and market-based
3) 200 to 350 at the wheels

:spank:

You don't want the Petit unit.

1) Eventually
2) Nominal and market-based
3) 200 to 350 at the wheels

:spank:

You don't want the Petit unit.

I like the Axial Flow because I think it is elegant. Why would I not want the Petit?

Because MM said so. :lol:

MM, can you explain... i never followed FI untill about 6 months ago, but from what i have read and learned it seems to be a excellent product in the making... to keep this thread on track, feel free to email me cmasoner@hawaii.rr.com

Paulmasoner the Axial Flow SC has been touted as the most efficient SC, because of its design. The numerous stages of blades helps prevent the air from compressing too fast which cuts down on the amount of heat that is produced. As most of us have learned a hot intake temp can not hold as much oxygen per square inch as colder air.

Ever noticed when the outside temp is cooler the car seems to have more power?

Yes i remember reading a little bit now about the way the compressor stages work, been a while though... any other points i should take into consideration when deciding whether to go with Pettit, or wait till whenever RP is complete? I understand that noone can just "set" a release date.. but it does seem that the other will be filling orders in just a couple months now as design is done. Basically i am trying to decide if it is worth it to wait as this is not an investment i will make twice due to a poor decision, but also i am not willing to wait unless it is definately worthwhile. Thanks guys for your responses, i am currently in the process of cathing up on a couple hundred pages, lol

I don't think its a very good idea to tell people to stay away from any particular kit, especially when its not out yet....pettit looks to have a great product and saying something like that could give them a bad rep to people who would otherwise buy the product and enjoy it

They gave themselves their own bad rep - they don't need me to do that.

From what I read the "bad rep" was remedied as they made right by the customer.

Not sure if it was seen as the thread was deleted so as not to tarnish their rep further at such a critical time with the SC coming out.

Since we bring up their SC in RP's thread again... Richard do you have any input on their kit?

Were you at 7-Stock? Did you get a look at Petit's display?
If they market that thing, run away.

No I didn't make it to 7 stock. :sad:

I will say that the pictures I have seen to the final mockup look decent.

Would love to hear some sound clips... of the AFSC. :)

The Petit display looked like a yard sale in Beirut.

I have known the guys at Pettit for over 15 years. They started fixing the problems on the FDs before anyone else,(coolant expansion tank). He has been testing his Supercharger on his car. He will not release it until he is comfortable that is as reliable as a factory install. It will be a reliable and safe product when it comes out. I have been in Cam's car and this is the fix the RX-8 needs.

I think RP's concerns are the same am as comfortable with his finished product as Pettit's. It is going to be a question of what type of SC do you want. Both will be great products at about the same price.

John

I just want to see one of them FOR SALE!

I met Cam and Candy at Petit, and got to ride in their SC'd 8. They have put 20,000 miles on a FI Renesis and pulled it apart to make sure there were no problems. I think they are quite serious - and if the AFSC wasn;t an option, I would go with Petit's once available. Just a shame it's taking everyone such a long time to make it work. I did love the feel of the 8 with the SC- as opposed to the Greddy'd 8 I rode in.

Why are we talking about Pettit in the AFSC thread. How about we talk about AFSC in the AFSC thread.

ooh nearly 300 pages:D:

Amazing amount of reading for sure - Happy New Year RP!

and the 1st post on Page 300 goes to......

woo. page 112 for me.

woo. page 112 for me.


40 posts/page ownzzzzz

RP,
this is a sort of on-topic/off topic message.

in addition to modifying my RX-8 I am also building a 392 Hemi. In the past I have seen images of a front mounted roots blower on a small block chevy, I think it was by Moon.

My idea is to do something of the same layout but with one of your axial flow superchargers. Do you have anything that could run up to 10-12 PSI on a 392 spinning at 6k?

the build so far on the motor is
'58 300 "A" 392 block .030 over
'56 354 heads
'58 crank offset ground to accomodate Big block chevy rods
Eagle 7.25" big block chevy h-beam rods
Arias 8:1 comp custom pistons (pins moved up piston to stabilise piston for high RPM reliability.
The camshaft is undecided at this point and is dependent on the air intake method and Forced Induction vs. Normally aspirated.

initially we were going to go with some sort of screw compressor, but then I came up with the wild idea of trying to set up some sort of constantly variable drive for the compressor. So driving around town you could have low to no boost, yet if you wanted more power you could dial up the drive ratio and start running boost.

and the 1st post on Page 300 goes to......


meeeeeeeeee!


























:rock:

Edit : BUGGER !

meeeeeeeeee!
:rock:

Edit : BUGGER !

Nope, sorry, you were off by a few. :wiggle:

Who will it be? I bet it will be someone who doesnt want to read 300 pages.

yeah me!!!

I bet zoom cheated being an administrator and all :cwm27:


EDIT: Some how I became #300 :balls:

113 pages?

you are set to 40 posts per page.

zoom44 has powers

Yeah, but what would really be nice is some information from RP about the supercharger. I thought I remember reading that it was expected to be ready at seven stock, then maybe christmas. I’m not really in a hurry, I have to save the money first, but it would be nice to know how much I’m going to need to save and how much HP I will be getting.

*** ADMIN EDIT: Lennart, your post does not belong in this thread and has been removed. Thanks, Omicron ***

Ive been reading this thread for a bit, but I havent figured out what the release date will be. So I was wondering if anyone knew when its supposed to be out, and if its still in produtction?

^ That is the million dollar question. We are all waiting for the answer.

Well I hope everything is ok with the project, I was really hopeing to get this. Has anyone PMed or emailed Richard on this problem?

I've got a stack of 43 - hundred dollar bills sitting here.

If Richard doesn't hurry up and offer this product -

that stack of bills may end up getting converted to

blow, crack ho's and a bulk quantity box of Depends.

I've got a stack of 43 - hundred dollar bills sitting here.

If Richard doesn't hurry up and offer this product -

that stack of bills may end up getting converted to

blow, crack ho's and a bulk quantity box of Depends.

The webwite does not seem to get updated and he does not seem to keep us as informed as the Pattit S/C is. I like the concept of this one better, but,...I do have A.D.D. I might just blow my money partying with Emailists on another S/C or turbo. Might end up buying a new motorcycle. An update would be nice though.

Give RP a break - he is probably sipping marguretas under the shade of a coolabar tree somewhere.

:rollingla Give RP a break - he is probably sipping marguretas under the shade of a coolabar tree somewhere.

RP check out the fuel starvation thread--we have found some thing that may be of interest to you concerning the fuel pump. May be useful, may not.
olddragger

No worries guys, if I know Richard he's still hard at work on this thing. Richard doesn't like to give TOO many updates as it just pulls him away from his work and leads to more speculation.

He also types with one finger and his computer is usually on the fritz for some reason or another so updates stay brief, few, and far between.

yeah RP is soo clearly a MECHANICAL engineer...hehe..everytime he tries to post pictures or touch computers it seems like hell....

(reverse the above with me, generally speaking..or in fact, hell in both cases sometimes!)

He also types with one finger and his computer is usually on the fritz for some reason or another so updates stay brief, few, and far between.


Probably visiting to many pron and warez sites. :yelrotflm

yeah RP is soo clearly a MECHANICAL engineer...hehe..everytime he tries to post pictures or touch computers it seems like hell....

(reverse the above with me, generally speaking..or in fact, hell in both cases sometimes!)

i'm a mechanical engineer -shrug-

Hehe, saw a book on super chargers at Barnes and Nobel that actually talks about Axial flow super chargers. It says someone bought the design/etc. in the 80's, made an attempt at updating it and nothing sense.

You know who that someone is!

Hehe, saw a book on super chargers at Barnes and Nobel that actually talks about Axial flow super chargers. It says someone bought the design/etc. in the 80's, made an attempt at updating it and nothing sense.


what is the name of the book??

Not to push him, but it would be nice to hear on what the progress is.

Last time I heard, it was planned to be released at SevenStock, and it came and past and nothing.

Hey, will this kit come with a copy of Duke Nukem forever included?

Ok ok just joking flame me :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

You know who that someone is!I was hoping it was actually someone else that had it in the 80's. Since if this has been in development for 20 years I don't have a lot of hope of seeing it anytime soon.

what is the name of the book??Don't remember, I'd have to go back and look, it was something like 'Supercharging for the Street'. It does actually talk about axial SC's and rotary engines, just not togeather.

The book is called "Street Supercharging". It has a couple of pages on the axial flow. While Richard has had the company for a while now, he didn't start working on an RX-8 blower until he started this thread a couple of years ago.

Hey, will this kit come with a copy of Duke Nukem forever included?




some1 is showing there age :)

Damn, does knowing about DNF tag you as an old fart these days?

:(

I still play Duke on Kali every so often.

Yes, Kali. Now THAT is daating myself

may be :hahano: I don’t play it any more but do remember the original DN game; cant forget about the original Doom on the PC.

Any one remember Zaxxon 5.25” floppy on the original IBM PC Jr.

http://www.tripletsandus.com/80s/80s_games/zaxxon.htm

Stop it!! I am starting to feel old.

may be :hahano: I don’t play it any more but do remember the original DN game; cant forget about the original Doom on the PC.

Any one remember Zaxxon 5.25” floppy on the original IBM PC Jr.

http://www.tripletsandus.com/80s/80s_games/zaxxon.htm

I remember Zaxxon when I was really young. I used to play it on a Franklin PC.

I just recently went to Axial Flow's shop to get my short shifter installed. I got a first hand look at the supercharger installed in 04 RX-8 (the owners). He also showed me the mechanics of it on the table in the shop. It really is like a jet engine with about 6 turbines spinning. It's supposed to add 100BHP on top of what you already have. He still needs to make some minor adjustments as his is since it's only pumping an additional 90BHP. He is very anxious to get this out. However, he wants to deliver a quality product. Hence why it's taking longer. I would love to have one of these bad boy's. Need a beta Tester?

Not to push him, but it would be nice to hear on what the progress is.

Last time I heard, it was planned to be released at SevenStock, and it came and past and nothing.

My first computer was a Comadore (sp?)64 complete with tape drive, and it was new when I got it. Ofcourse I was only about 4-5. I played one of the first Flight Simulators on it. :rock: :rock:

It's supposed to add 100BHP on top of what you already have. He still needs to make some minor adjustments as his is since it's only pumping an additional 90BHP. He is very anxious to get this out. However, he wants to deliver a quality product. Hence why it's taking longer.

Thanks for the 1st person report :ylsuper: rebelx! 90 or 100 HP seems really immaterial at this stage in the game. It's all good and frankly a relief to hear that something is coming of this project. I'd still like to hear all this in a Racing Beat style formal 'Coming attractions' announcement from RB along with the request for beta testers.

Now that truly WOULD be revolutionary :)

I can hardly wait. I like this one a little better than the petit s/c. I think this one won't be as obvious to the casual observer.

Also simpler without an intercooler. and its very unique!
________
MadonnaLuisa (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/MadonnaLuisa/)

I'd mostly rather have it over the pettit as it's both simpler design and more unique. Everybody and their brother has a normal blower on their hot rod, non of them have a mini jet engine. So not only would I have the smallest displacement of any engine at the car show I go to but I would be the only one with a jet engine bolted to it as well. Hopefully it makes a cool sound too. Hehehe...

But yes, if RP needs a beta tester I'm there. I'll take a couple weeks of vacation and drive out there. I have no problem paying for the kit if he wants to cover install and tuning.

I'd mostly rather have it over the pettit as it's both simpler design and more unique. Everybody and their brother has a normal blower on their hot rod, non of them have a mini jet engine. So not only would I have the smallest displacement of any engine at the car show I go to but I would be the only one with a jet engine bolted to it as well. Hopefully it makes a cool sound too. Hehehe...

But yes, if RP needs a beta tester I'm there. I'll take a couple weeks of vacation and drive out there. I have no problem paying for the kit if he wants to cover install and tuning.Just for clarifications sake, this isn't a jet engine. This would only be the equivalent of the compressor section of a jet engine. The first British jet engine designs used a centrifugal compressor on their engines, similar to the centrifugal superchargers that are available for our cars.
Otherwise, I agree, this would be a great addition to the car.

Shush, it is too a jet engine.

Just for clarifications sake, this isn't a jet engine. This would only be the equivalent of the compressor section of a jet engine. The first British jet engine designs used a centrifugal compressor on their engines, similar to the centrifugal superchargers that are available for our cars.
Otherwise, I agree, this would be a great addition to the car.

Too much to let a guy think he is special. :icon_droo You have to burst our bubble.

:)

So what if he wears a helmet and rides the short bus...

+100 hp with out an intercooler or some other sort of cooling (water injection...) is true testament to the efficiency of an axial flow compressor.

I would not know what to do with 100 more hp. Will an intercooler of some type be available for cars that see track time or would it not be required? I know that roots and screw s/c produce a lot of heat. I am getting that this will not produce any where near that type of heat.

Dave See first few posts - where RP explains efficiencies

I'm very interested to see how soon this thing starts to boost ...

It’s a supercharger it produce boost as soon as you open the throttle…… :p:

I think your question is more along of what is the boost profile.

AFSC produce boost in a linear manner

For example
1 psi at 1krpm,
2 psi at 2kRPM
3psi at 3kRPM
...ect


But is not necessarily 1:1 linear

However pressure is not what you should be looking at.....
Its how much air mass you can get to flow into the combustion chamber (also out)

Pressure is just one way to get that mass flow; there comes a turning point where temperature rise due to compression decreases the amount of density increases you get from the added pressure; anything over that pressure causes an rapid increases in charge temperatures having a net effect of a diminishing density increases vs. pressure rise.

I just re-read the first 12 pages. I have a headache now.

Boost comes online a bit later than most think it will and at a different rate than most think it does. I'm not going to say anymore until Richard finally shows us a plot of it. He is always changing things around and what works today may not necessarily apply tomorrow.

Think "centrifugal" in terms of boost curve.

Just for clarifications sake, this isn't a jet engine.Gee thanks, I really thought it was a jet engine (sarcasm)

Is Richard on vacation?

Is Richard on vacation?
He's probably working on his Corvette project... :)

He's not on vacation and will be posting here later today with updates. :spank:

Forgive us. We are very impatient and very excited.

Yahooo! We are getting an update. We are getting an update!
:ylsuper: :suitdance

Thank you.

He's not on vacation and will be posting here later today with updates. :spank:

Sweet, I am anticipating hearing it. :rock:

Sweet, I am anticipating hearing it. :rock:

I'll second that. :jump:

:blue: I'm holding my breath in anticipation!

I'm turning blue here! :cwm27:

Registered JUST to keep tabs on this...interesting to say the least...

Are we there yet...

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

Spill it RP!

:bluesuit: :suitdance :101384_l: :jump: :bootyshak :grouphug:

this thread is preventing me from writing my thesis. Hurry up so i can stop checking it every 10 minutes.....

j/k

Guess I'd better step up here. :soapbox: We have been working on productionizing things and lining up vendors. Seems like forever to get others motivated, I mean just because I want it NOW and pay them later and they should do it for free. WTF
Next comes the real hang up, we are not getting our reflash from the source we wanted. It may happen but not right now. We are working with two other sources now but don't have their hardware on our car yet. We are doing tuning with a system that will not be coming with our kit.

Next we have a new test bench under construction. This has more power and variable frequency speed control. We also have some data aquisition hardware that if we can get it working will help alot.

There is another hang up that is winding it's way through the pipeline, legal pipeline that is. We can't sell anything until our patent applications are accepted. They don't have to be approved or anything like that, just accept the damn application. That means............ I don't know. Hell, I'm a pervert not a lawyer.

As to your question about the curve, I answered this before but RG is right, or close for as he says I change things alot. I can't break the laws of physics so it will be between the radial flow and positive displacement types. It's all explained somewhere at the beginning.

While I can't break the laws of physics I can bend the rules a little. I do this by moving the efficiency points. That's a small change in overall curves as you will see it. But it is not like a centrifugal (yes I'm talking to you MM) I can't make it do that just as I can't make it work like a PD. If will still be like textbooks say it will.... I mean close thereto.

We haven't taken it to a road course yet but we will. I'm going to drive it up to Lake Tahoe in a few weeks for some cold weather testing. Because of the tight tolerances and it being aluminum cold weather could do things we don't expect.
Hopefully we allowed for all that though. We've already done hot tests. It would be nice if we get to do these with the aluminum manifold that we don't have ready yet, but close.

Anyway a high speed drive up the 5 and up the mountain will be a good test. And a fun drive, I hope. Is there room for chains on these things? I don't plan on getting caught in a storm but it does happen. I think they make some real low clip on thingies for this sort of car. Any bad weather owners have tips for me? There's plenty of time to be prepared. What about the fog light thing? I heard there is a fix for this. What a luxury I have, never worrying about these things, you poor souls.

I'm going out and buying winter tires and wheels just for one trip, am I?

If I forgot anyones questions I'm sure you'll let me know.

So what happens if the patents don’t get approved? The government is very slow and patents can take a long time to get approved. I know how long it takes, I have several patents for software, and a couple of them took years to get approved, so are you thinking this could be a year or two away?

I can hardly wait for this supercharger to be released, it’s going to make my RX-8 fun again. I moved from Dallas to Salt Lake City, 4000 feet makes a big difference.

They don't have to be approved or anything like that, just accept the damn application. That means............ I don't know. Hell, I'm a pervert not a lawyer.


Read the fine print. they don't need to be approved. The application for patent just needs to be accepted. You know..."Patent Pending." If Richard sells his Supercharger before he applies for a Patent on it then it becomes public domain and anyone can reverse engineer it and rip him off without any compensation for Richard. Which means he most likely would run out of money and we would never see more wonderful designs from him.

Good luck Richard...we're all pulling for you and can't wait!

I dont know if this would help...but in the realm of tuning and engine manglement...Protech here in austin has had pretty good success with the HKS system and is working on a turbo kit which would incorporate it. Perhaps contact them?

Link to orig story re:turbo kit...

http://www.caranddriver.com/specialtyfiles/11161/specialty-file-review-protech-performance-rx-8-turbo.html

I am antsy in the pantsey obviously...

Thank you Richard

NM I found the answer as to WHY an aftermarket engine manglement unit is not being used...I just had to read thru 200+ pages...

In retrospect...making the kit cheaper by not forcing ppl to use an aftermarket EMU is bloody brilliant...you'll sell a gajillion units due to ease of install and price...

The antsies keep crawling up the pantsies...

Richard, your contact page on your web site fails. Anyway when you get close and need some consumer test cars feel free to drop me a line. I do the web site for one of the major clubs in the midwest and can maybe get you some exposure as well.

Richard, your contact page on your web site fails. Anyway when you get close and need some consumer test cars feel free to drop me a line. I do the web site for one of the major clubs in the midwest and can maybe get you some exposure as well.

Which club?

Read the fine print. they don't need to be approved. The application for patent just needs to be accepted. You know..."Patent Pending." If Richard sells his Supercharger before he applies for a Patent on it then it becomes public domain and anyone can reverse engineer it and rip him off without any compensation for Richard. Which means he most likely would run out of money and we would never see more wonderful designs from him.

Good luck Richard...we're all pulling for you and can't wait!

I did read the fine print. My question was, what if his patent is not accepted, I thought that was a valid question. Just because you file and get a provisional patent number does not mean that your patent will be accepted.

RP, so am I to assume that you have filed the applications for patents but have not received provisional patent numbers yet? When did you file the applications? At this point, what do you think is a reasonable date for release? I know that if you give a date, it can and probably will change, but even if you say six months, that would at least give people something to look forward to.

He filed for a patent. If he releases a product before it has been accepted or in other words before he can legally say "patent pending", anyone can come along and copy it and start selling it right away. It won't take long for someone somewhere to get a hold of one and take it apart in an attempt to copy it. If his patent has been accepted and he can say "patent pending", even before a patent is granted it still stops anyone from legally selling a copy and he has grounds to take legal action. If his patent is approved and is granted then he definitely has legal ground for the length of the patent to stop anyone from selling another one. He also needs to be concerned with US vs international patents as well not to mention the fact that patents expire after so many years. He can worry about that later though. It's a while. If he isn't granted a patent, at the very least he bought himself some time for a while before anyone can legally copy it. Knowing what is out there it's hard to imagine a patent not being granted on this. It's easier to try to fight someone with a copy product if you already have legal grounds to do so than it is to have a patent granted after they have been selling one and then try to go back and have their sales discontinued. He's making a good sound business decision.

Richard: thanks for the update on the AFSC. Good luck with the patent and with getting the reflash taken care of. I imagine that must be the most frustrating part, but I'm sure it will still be worth the wait.

Let me know when you're free: maybe I can stop by again and take some more pictures of the unit for you. (I can post them after patent application is approved if you wish)

He filed for a patent. If he releases a product before it has been accepted or in other words before he can legally say "patent pending", anyone can come along and copy it and start selling it right away. It won't take long for someone somewhere to get a hold of one and take it apart in an attempt to copy it. If his patent has been accepted and he can say "patent pending", even before a patent is granted it still stops anyone from legally selling a copy and he has grounds to take legal action. If his patent is approved and is granted then he definitely has legal ground for the length of the patent to stop anyone from selling another one. He also needs to be concerned with US vs international patents as well not to mention the fact that patents expire after so many years. He can worry about that later though. It's a while. If he isn't granted a patent, at the very least he bought himself some time for a while before anyone can legally copy it. Knowing what is out there it's hard to imagine a patent not being granted on this. It's easier to try to fight someone with a copy product if you already have legal grounds to do so than it is to have a patent granted after they have been selling one and then try to go back and have their sales discontinued. He's making a good sound business decision.

I guess I’m not making myself clear. I understand the legal aspects of a patent, the protections granted when you have one and risks you take if you do not.

What I am really interested in is what Richard will do if:
1) His patent application is not accepted. Will he modify the design and re-file and therefore not release product until he as a provincial patent.
2) If his patent is not granted. Will he continue with R&D until he can get a patent or will the project be scraped?

I do want to say great work Richard :worship: it’s an awesome design . I monitor the other turbo and supercharger projects and this is the only one I am interested in. My 8 will not have boost until I can have an AxialFlow supercharger. I just wish I knew when I was going to be able to get one. :sad:

I believe the only reason to not accept the application is because it is not specific enough, or its filled out or filed incorrectly. There is no reason to think the application would be denied.

And I think it would depend on what grounds it was denied for.

But considering how much he has already put into it, I doubt he would scrap it. But you never know.

Considering there are few turbo kits, let alone super kits, let alone axial flow, I really doubt there is another patent covering this. If there was, we would see it on the market.

Filing a provisional patent is easy and fast. If you file one, it takes less than a month to receive the receipt with the provisional number and obtain the legal rights and put patent pending on your product. You can get all the forms here: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/provapp.htm
Just add your patent description, the forms (I believe there are 2 pages), a $100 check and a stamped postcard, such that they can send you the filing number. (You can also call them and they are actually pretty helpful - no lawyer needed.)
The advantage is it won't even be made public (as opposed to the non-provisional) and you still have one year to file the non-provisional patent (which can be the same as the provisional).

The patent officers don't even read the provisional patent, they just send you the number and off you go.

Btw, here's the original axial flow supercharger patent: http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT3032260&id=R-JSAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=latham+axial+supercharger

Considering there are few turbo kits, let alone super kits, let alone axial flow, I really doubt there is another patent covering this. If there was, we would see it on the market.
Actually 99% of all the patents are not on the market because there is no market:
Since this thread covers centrifugal force, here's one interesting patent that apparently didn't quite make it (well at least not where I come from anyway):
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT3216423&id=qtFaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=centrifugal+birth+machine#PPP1,M1

However, I think that Richards axial flow supercharger is great and I admire his persistence. But it is a niche market and therefore most probably not particularly interesting for potential competitors. (A product that is expensive to produce and requires a lot of adaptation and development for each engine won't get a lot of attention from people that try to make a profit).

There are a lot of patents that I have seen that make me wonder why anyone would waste threir time and money to develop the idea much less get a patent on it. That was one of them.

Here is a list of stupid patents.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/crazy.html

Thank you Globi for the link to the Latham patent. That is some interesting reading.

Hi Guys,


I'd like to try the AF blower with my 2.3-liter 4-cylinder. The boost might arrive at high rpms. But intercoolers aren't necessary. If you were to rebuild the engine, what can you do to boost low-end power and torque ? The host engine is an ecotec 2.3-liter.


Eric

From my understainding is that this S/C is very motor specific. Are you looking for originality or just added hp? Is it a cobalt, sunfire, G5?

As Dave mentioned, this blower is not a "one size fits all" piece of machinery. It is specifically designed for each application and isn't interchangable with other vehicles. If you want one for the Ecotec 2.3L, RP would have to design a new blower specifcally for that application.

thanks, guys !

I am not an expert on this or nothing, but I would think its all about flow right?

I mean technically with a centrifugal you should find the right turbo for the motor, but usually it seems people find something thats close enough.

I wonder which motors this SC would work sufficiently with.

Our motor is labelled as a 1.3L, but it flows more like a? 3.9L? I dont know for certain.

Not exactly that simple. Richard designed and redesigned the blower for the RX-8, changing the number of stages and blade design in order to have the blower flow properly for the characteristics of the 13B-MSP. Like I said... it's not a plug and play blower.

I am not an expert on this or nothing, but I would think its all about flow right?

I mean technically with a centrifugal you should find the right turbo for the motor, but usually it seems people find something thats close enough.

I wonder which motors this SC would work sufficiently with.

Our motor is labelled as a 1.3L, but it flows more like a? 3.9L? I dont know for certain.

IMO, more like a 2.6 liter.

It just consumes gas like 3.9. :p:

richard owns the rights to the original latham. he got them from mr latham

richard owns the rights to the original latham. he got them from mr latham

What rights would that be? The original Latham design would be public domain now.

There are a lot of patents that I have seen that make me wonder why anyone would waste threir time and money to develop the idea much less get a patent on it. That was one of them.

Here is a list of stupid patents.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/crazy.html

As a patent attorney, I can speak from experience on this point. But I have seen many people make a load of money on patents most would think are "stupid." I have also helped many inventors get patents on inventions that I believe are truly useful and valuable, and some have never seen a penny of a return on their investments. The ability to effectively market an invention is usually more important than having a good idea.

he bought everything from mr latham himself before the man died.so he still owns whatever has not fallen into the public domain. the company the name what ever trademarks and copyrights etc that mat still be in force

he bought everything from mr latham himself before the man died.so he still owns whatever has not fallen into the public domain. the company the name what ever trademarks and copyrights etc that mat still be in force

That is true. I thought you were talking about the technology. My bad.

Every time I see a new post in this thread I'm thinking "Cool it's out!"

Every time I see a new post in this thread I'm thinking "Cool it's out!"

me too :(

As a patent attorney, I can speak from experience on this point. But I have seen many people make a load of money on patents most would think are "stupid." I have also helped many inventors get patents on inventions that I believe are truly useful and valuable, and some have never seen a penny of a return on their investments. The ability to effectively market an invention is usually more important than having a good idea.
I would adapt the last sentence to: The ability to effectively develop, produce and market an invention is more important than patent it. Keep in mind, it is not a problem at all to purchase well made fake Swiss luxury watches in China. However, original Swiss luxury watches still sell well in China. (And its definitely not because of the strong international trademark protection).

Here's a good read about the value of patents (I don't entirely agree with everything he says, but he's not far off). http://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf

In the year 2006 173,772 patents were issued in the US. How many inventors actually receive royalties from their patents? With so many patents (over 1 Mio still effective) wouldn't there occasionally something be in the news from a large corporation paying royalties to an inventor? After all its a story that sells well.

No doubt, patents do have value, particularly for pharmaceutical companies. But as far as garage inventors and small companies are concerned, profit from patents is unfortunately almost always generated by the patent attorneys and not the inventors.

The thing is that if you work for a company they usualy put you under contract that basicly sais your thoughts belong to them. I have a friend that has several patents. He works for a company that helps make cars safer. He gets no royalties since he works for the company. He is well compensated though.

I don't remember that the companies I worked for ever paid royalties to anybody nor do I remember that the companies I worked for ever received royalties from anybody. (Although I have never worked for a big corporation, I worked for companies with up to 900 employees). Companies do this because strong IP portfolios are well sellable to investors and to reduce the probability that competitors would bother them with law suits - nobody cares about royalties. (I've been working in R&D for the last 10 years in different companies and have my name on a bunch of patents too (this is part of your duty when you work in this field). And if we found a patented idea we've always found a way to work around it.)

The only bad thing about a patent is that to file one you have to make all of the details of it public.

Well, it won't made public if one only files a provisional patent.

(A patent is not bad per se, but people ought to question the return on investment).

The only bad thing about a patent is that to file one you have to make all of the details of it public.

That is the "quid pro quo" for obtaining a government-sanctioned monopoly for a limited term.

Well, it won't made public if one only files a provisional patent.

(A patent is not bad per se, but people ought to question the return on investment).

Yeah, but a provisional patent doesn't give you any enforcement rights. It merely preserves your filing date and allows you to say that your invention is "patent pending." If you never convert it to a nonprovisional application, it does nothing for you.

FWIW, assuming something has been filed, the only thing that could be holding up RP's patent application from being "accepted" (at least precluding him from being able to claim "patent pending") would be filing an incomplete application (or one that is too informal to get a filing date). The "examination" of the substance of the application will likely take more than a year or two unless RP qualifies for a "petition to make special."

me too :(
no doubt.

Yeah, but a provisional patent doesn't give you any enforcement rights. It merely preserves your filing date and allows you to say that your invention is "patent pending." If you never convert it to a nonprovisional application, it does nothing for you.

FWIW, assuming something has been filed, the only thing that could be holding up RP's patent application from being "accepted" (at least precluding him from being able to claim "patent pending") would be filing an incomplete application (or one that is too informal to get a filing date). The "examination" of the substance of the application will likely take more than a year or two unless RP qualifies for a "petition to make special."
A question for the Patent Attorney. I worked for a company that was run by a Patent Attorney. I believe that the product developed was not invented by the owner himself but something he acquired during his work. The product was the first electronic dart board seen in many bars across the nation. How does this work and what are the ethics behind something like this?

A question for the Patent Attorney. I worked for a company that was run by a Patent Attorney. I believe that the product developed was not invented by the owner himself but something he acquired during his work. The product was the first electronic dart board seen in many bars across the nation. How does this work and what are the ethics behind something like this?

And how does this relate to the Axial Flow Supercharger? Not like we need this thread to be anylonger that it already is.

And how does this relate to the Axial Flow Supercharger? Not like we need this thread to be anylonger that it already is.

I will answer and relate it to the AFS. If RP hires an employee to help develop the AFS, he should have the employee sign a contract that assigns the employee's rights to any resulting intellectual property to RP or AFE. Of course, sometimes when you allow your employee to share in the profits of his/her work, he/she works harder and is more creative. If you are suggesting that the invention was developed by a "client" of the patent attorney when the patent attorney had an attorney-client relationship with the client, then that is definitely a separate, complicated issue (but I would be willing to answer your question via PM).

I think we are all just eager for this product to be released. It sounds like production/distribution/flash issues are the main hold-ups. The patent filing should not be THAT complicated. After all the patent application is considered "pending" the date you put a completed application in the mail to the USPTO (assuming you use the recommended mailing protocol). Sometimes it takes several weeks to receive your filing confirmation from the patent office, but the Express Mail receipt may be used as proof of filing.

And how does this relate to the Axial Flow Supercharger? Not like we need this thread to be anylonger that it already is.
Leave us alone.:mad: We are trying our best to hold until the S/C is released. We are very anxious. In fact the Axial Flow is one of the main reasons I became a member. Well,...that and I saw a pic of Bunnygirl.

Next comes the real hang up, we are not getting our reflash from the source we wanted. It may happen but not right now. We are working with two other sources now but don't have their hardware on our car yet. We are doing tuning with a system that will not be coming with our kit.Bummer :crying:

On the patent issue, our office has 32 patent plaques hanging on the walls, with a host of others pending. They are a pain to get implemented.

How was the Tahoe run? :p:

And how does this relate to the Axial Flow Supercharger? Not like we need this thread to be anylonger that it already is.
Leave us alone.:mad: We are trying our best to hold until the S/C is released. We are very anxious. In fact the Axial Flow is one of the main reasons I became a member. Well,...that and I saw a pic of Bunnygirl.
Sorry, I did not mean that to come across as an insult. I am just as anxious as you for this supercharger to be released.

Sorry if this is in some easily accessible spot that I overlooked, but are there any audio or video clips of this supercharger? I'd love to hear what it sounds like.

I had better hurry with my reverse engineering project of the AFSC. So far I have a blown up balloon and a pinwheel feeding more air into my Renesis. I am confident I can increase the .3 HP gain I am getting before Richard gets his patent. I am experimenting with stronger balloons, and various materials for the pinweel assembly.

I'll be taking orders soon.

Is This Coming Out Anytime Soon! Theres No Way Im Reading Through Over #)) Pages Of Crap> This Post Should Be Restarted>

Is This Coming Out Anytime Soon! Theres No Way Im Reading Through Over #)) Pages Of Crap> This Post Should Be Restarted>

There are quite a few of these whining types of posts that make it this long...

The info is in one spot for the AF SC why spread it out? :nono:

Is This Coming Out Anytime Soon! Theres No Way Im Reading Through Over #)) Pages Of Crap> This Post Should Be Restarted>


you get out what you put in. so far you are not doing well..

the the answer is when it is done.

beers :beer:

All I can say is RP's endevours have been splashed all over the internet in many other forums, and WHEN the AFSC is actually for retail sale, it will change the ENTIRE world of aftermarket supercharging.

I predict that either RP (AFE) will be picked up by a larger firm to continue work for other platforms, or AFE will need to add a few thousand ft^2 of production and a few hundred employees.

Is This Coming Out Anytime Soon! Theres No Way Im Reading Through Over #)) Pages Of Crap> This Post Should Be Restarted>


Not the best way to say "hi." Do you talk to your Mom like that? Show a little courtesy please.

All I can say is RP's endevours have been splashed all over the internet in many other forums, and WHEN the AFSC is actually for retail sale, it will change the ENTIRE world of aftermarket supercharging.

I predict that either RP (AFE) will be picked up by a larger firm to continue work for other platforms, or AFE will need to add a few thousand ft^2 of production and a few hundred employees.

I agree. I expect to see these SC on many different models/makes of cars.

I think RP has made himself a millionare with this product, its just gonna take time to recieve all that money.

And I hope you dont sell out RP!

Sorry, I did not mean that to come across as an insult. I am just as anxious as you for this supercharger to be released.
No insult taken. It was my feeble attempt at humor.

Is This Coming Out Anytime Soon! Theres No Way Im Reading Through Over #)) Pages Of Crap> This Post Should Be Restarted>
With any thread like this the first post should contain a summary of the current state of the project so everyone that is interest always knows where things are at without having to read 200 pages.

With any thread like this the first post should contain a summary of the current state of the project so everyone that is interest always knows where things are at without having to read 200 pages.

That's a good suggestion.

:)

:icon_tup:

I did not look on this thread for a while. I just browse through and look for Richard and stop there to read. But yes, I think that is a good suggestion also.

Kind of reminds me of the 100MPG carburetor. Everyone talked about it thought it was a great idea, but no one ever sold one.

This one must have been sold at one time:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Latham-Supercharger_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34198QQihZ 008QQitemZ180076578860QQrdZ1
and if you buy it, it'll be sold again.

Any updates? I'm antsey in the pantsey and have been fighting the urges for turbochargers...M-m-u-s-t...g-e-t...-p-p-p-0-w-a...

Any updates? I'm antsey in the pantsey and have been fighting the urges for turbochargers...M-m-u-s-t...g-e-t...-p-p-p-0-w-a...You just joined, how can you be so "antsey in the pantsey"?

yay! It's out! Oh wait a minute....never mind...

haa...I've been watching for a while...I *just* joined so I could be pinged when something was posted...I fought the urge to join for a bit...at first it was curiosity...the geek in me...wanting to know the who/what/how/why...

So basically...its because of this thread that I even joined the forum...and now I'm getting sucked in and "knowing" lots of the older posters cause I've read thru them and stuff and seem them scattered everywhere...

Mazda Maniac for example...he was cool back in the MX-3 days...he didnt have much of a life back then either...but man he was hardcore for the supercharger project...

Hes been around for a while...he's still as cocky and smug as always...but man as annoying as he is...he knows his stuff...I think he put it best one time himself on this forum somewhere...

Hes an "impatient idiot savant" or something to that extent...haa...

Long story short...I went thru 2 MX-3's...straight to the RX...and while I will miss it....cause you DO grow to love that little gnat...I'm totally at home in the RX...

So...while I may have joined just a little bit ago...judge me not lest yee be called the judge...or something...

Back to your regularly scheduled bitchfest in session...

pantsey...antsey..blah blah...out??!?! ohhhh....sooo..sad....


heh...

Are we waiting on the Cobb tuner or what?

As far as I know it's going to be a different one with the same capabilites as the cobb unit. Not sure though.

how about those of us that already have a piggyback - I won't mind doing some testing ..... :)

My guess is that when the kit is finalized he will find 3-5 beta testers to test it out. Using feedback from them he will do last minor(hopefully) adjustments before he goes into major production. This is what he did with the AxialFlow shifter and it would only make sense that he did it with the supercharger as well.

With that said part of beta testing would be testing the whole kit including whatever EMS system he will be using. If he were to beta test the supercharger on someone with an EMS solution already it would not be much of a beta test and would not help get the final product out quicker. Mechanically it should be mostly fine. Tuning on a variety of RX-8s is what probably needs the most testing.

don't know what a beta tester is but I'll sure as hell be a better tester !

Why not take the Petit approach - offer maps for various piggybacks already on the market ?

Why not take the Petit approach - offer maps for various piggybacks already on the market ?Because none of the developers of any of the systems have the time or the resources to tune one EMS, let alone 1/2 dozen.

don't know what a beta tester is but I'll sure as hell be a better tester !A Beta tester is a person that is willing to test a product before it is released to the public. This product may or may not have all it's bugs worked out. The Beta tester will report back to the company what kind of experiance he has had using the product. For his trouble, he may get the product at a reduced rate. The first place I heard the term used was in software testing.

I havent checked up on this thread in a bit, so I was wondering whats new? Whats the status, what the hell is going on?