i know I know emissions and all, but heck we dont even have a pcv on the 04-05!
something to think about.
Olddragger

The Drag racers are hooking up vacuum pumps to their reciprocating engines, but I do not think vacuum on the crank case will have much of an effect on this rotary thing.

The thing I have noticed is oil coming out of the air filter so I investigated and there is not much oil vapor or pressure in the case of this engine. what is happening is during an oil change or when topping off, if you pour the oil in too fast, it overflows and drains down the vent tube into the intake and with the K&N it is all downhill and drains out the bottom of the air filter.

Remove the tube or use a long spout funnel and the problem is solved.

Since we don't have a crankshaft rotating in the crankcase (hence the name), we don't have any windage issues. A vacuum pump wouldn't do anything for us.

On forced inducted rotaries, it is not uncommon for the pressure in the combustion chamber to leak past the oil seals in the rotors and pressurize the crankcase. Many RX-7 people use catch cans and believe me they do get used. The other option is to blow all that oily mist back into your intake. I'd definitely use a catch can for forced induction.

I spoke to Cobb, they are making good progress. If I decide to go that way, I'll wait for that.

If Cobb makes something, I will buy it. They make good products (at least the ones I bought for my previous RS).

I have heard real good things about the Access also.

And they were always super friendly on the phone.

Many RX-7 people use catch cans and believe me they do get used. The other option is to blow all that oily mist back into your intake. I'd definitely use a catch can for forced induction.


i've got a road draft tube on the fd :p:

richard check you socal.rr email please:)

WOW.. I was reading from the beginning of the thread, got 20 pages in and took a look at the little counter that said "out of 244!!" Okay, I'm guessing some progress has been made since 2004 on this supercharger, and I'm sure there's SOME way to search this, but I'm just going to ask:

1. How are we doing in the gains dept?
2. When is the estimated release date?
3. Still in that 3000 to 3500 price range?

Thanks to anyone who can answer these and not flame me 400 times ;-)

WOW.. I was reading from the beginning of the thread, got 20 pages in and took a look at the little counter that said "out of 244!!" Okay, I'm guessing some progress has been made since 2004 on this supercharger, and I'm sure there's SOME way to search this, but I'm just going to ask:

1. How are we doing in the gains dept?
2. When is the estimated release date?
3. Still in that 3000 to 3500 price range?

Thanks to anyone who can answer these and not flame me 400 times ;-)


not any answers to your ?s yet.... but progress is being made....

the best bet is to read the last 10 pages...

beers :beer:

one flame for each of the posts you didn't read :D

Well I guess that at least gives me some more time to save up eh? Thanks swoope!

one flame for each of the posts you didn't read :D

*chars to a small crispy mass*

*chars to a small crispy mass*

i read the whole thing one night about a year ago... it was about 150 pages then... did not relize how long it was till it was to late.... i finished about noon the next day...

i do understand..

beers :beer:

WOW.. I was reading from the beginning of the thread, got 20 pages in and took a look at the little counter that said "out of 244!!" Okay, I'm guessing some progress has been made since 2004 on this supercharger, and I'm sure there's SOME way to search this, but I'm just going to ask:

1. How are we doing in the gains dept?
2. When is the estimated release date?
3. Still in that 3000 to 3500 price range?

Thanks to anyone who can answer these and not flame me 400 times ;-)

1) still untested officially, it has been driven on the prototype to 5 PSI with no fuel management on pump 110 octane.. no numbers.

2) estimated release was sometime this fall or later, depends on a working engine/fuel managment.

3) price is who knows. It depends on the final costs and what fuel managment end s up being. rp has been at it for better than 2 years now, so there's obviosly some decent RD money he needs to recoup there. I'd bet on the higher side. There may be an inital volume discount/group buy on the first few units for the dedicated people who have been around the whole time, but that's up to RP to decide.

I hope mazda doesn't come out with a turboed rx-8 right as he is ready to release his product. That would seriously suck for him.

I hope mazda doesn't come out with a turboed rx-8 right as he is ready to release his product. That would seriously suck for him.

i would much rather go with the reliability and off the line torque or a supercharger over a turbo any day

I hope mazda doesn't come out with a turboed rx-8 right as he is ready to release his product. That would seriously suck for him.

no it wouldn't everyone who is in the market for one already has a NA rx8. it might even drive business for people to "keep up". most of the people buying rx8's now know what they are getting into. by the time the factory turbo's come of age there will be a path for them too.

anyways the axialflow SC is the stuff of legend. Lathams are the real deal unicorn of the FI world.

no it wouldn't everyone who is in the market for one already has a NA rx8. it might even drive business for people to "keep up". most of the people buying rx8's now know what they are getting into. by the time the factory turbo's come of age there will be a path for them too.

anyways the axialflow SC is the stuff of legend. Lathams are the real deal unicorn of the FI world.yea, I suppose you are right. I'm just losing hope because this has been such a slow process.

yea, I suppose you are right. I'm just losing hope because this has been such a slow process.

i would rather wait for a quality product then get something right this second that works like crap

i would rather wait for a quality product then get something right this second that works like crap

amen to that

.....There may be an inital volume discount/group buy on the first few units for the dedicated people who have been around the whole time, but that's up to RP to decide.

You've gotta have 4000 posts or more to get a free supercharger from the first batch.

Start postwhoring, girls....... :)

Any time line or progress report?

Hey RP Just checking in.. keep up the good work....

Its been a while since we have seen a update from RP……

.he must be working hard :jerkit: :lach:

I haven't been working much in the last two weeks as I've been involved in a legal matter that I'm bringing against some people. I have a few day break right now.

We are still looking at different ECU possabilitys. I will not say which ones we are testing so as to save all the nonsense that went on before. There is a new compressor design that will be ready in about 10 days. This is not a complete design change just some improvments that we came up with. Little things mean alot when you're working with intake air.

We don't like to give dates for sale of something as complex as this but we want to be to market in OCT. I didn't say we'd make it but that is our latest target. The things besides the ECU that are holding us up are the manufacture of the intake manifold and long lead time for the custom ball bearings and seals.

GL with that legal thing RP.

Can't wait to see this thing for sale in time for SS9!

perhaps this was brought up before, but richard why are you making a new intake manifold?

i've talked with some MSP people doing this because they are hesitant to use plastic with high boost pressures, but they were all talking above 10psi. Have you measured the amount of contraction and expansion under levels of boost, was it that significant with the low psi your running?

Or is this for another reason?

I'm not worried about it handling the pressure, it's just in the way of where the SC goes. In fact if I could find a way to cut the thing off and "weld" a 3" nipple on it I'd use it.

I'm not worried about it handling the pressure, it's just in the way of where the SC goes. In fact if I could find a way to cut the thing off and "weld" a 3" nipple on it I'd use it.
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=34276 (http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=34276)

theres a start :) you should talk with guitarjunkie :uhh: i think i remember him talking about using some sort of expoy inside the engine becuase someone had gone to deep with while porting the exhuast and bored right into the coolent jacket.

yea, the "epoxy" was a certified welder ;) i do exhaust and intercooler pipes with my lincoln 110, but that's as deep as i get into it.

i was worried about that one for a while, but that engine has a year and a half on it and it's still running, so we're all good.

i was worried about that one for a while, but that engine has a year and a half on it and it's still running, so we're all good.

you are in deep shit now....

We don't like to give dates for sale of something as complex as this but we want to be to market in OCT.
October of which year? Just curious as I have not seen any dyno data yet or heard about any long term durability testing, unless I just missed it somewhere in this thread.

What would be really really nice for all of us is if you ocassionally edited the first post of this thread with your current progress, etc. Otherwise it's just about impossible to have any clue what is going on.

Nobody else doing FI kits for the 8 gave any information either ;) Except maybe a dyno chart.

October of which year? Just curious as I have not seen any dyno data yet or heard about any long term durability testing, unless I just missed it somewhere in this thread.

What would be really really nice for all of us is if you ocassionally edited the first post of this thread with your current progress, etc. Otherwise it's just about impossible to have any clue what is going on.

What would be really really nice for all of us is if you ocassionally edited the first post of this thread with your current progress, etc. Otherwise it's just about impossible to have any clue what is going on.

Just subscribe to the thread, and you get an email when it is updated.

And if you want video of a S/C RX-8 on the dyno, have a look at my thread :D Cheeky Hymee.

Cheers,
Hymee.

October of which year? Just curious as I have not seen any dyno data yet or heard about any long term durability testing, unless I just missed it somewhere in this thread.

What would be really really nice for all of us is if you ocassionally edited the first post of this thread with your current progress, etc. Otherwise it's just about impossible to have any clue what is going on.


I think that I'm pretty open about wahat we are doing. More so than any other company. I get lots of shit from my partner about talking to much. He should get priority shouldn't he?
The power curve is still being worked on and if I told you every day what it was doing all I'd get was a ration about it wasn't good enough. You will tell me of your buddys turbo gets twice that. All I'd be doing is defending myself on the forum, not working.
How long of durability testing do you want? Because we can delay the sale for a couple of years for some real long term tests. Right now we are driving our test car into the ground. I even sat in traffic with it the other day for over four hours. It was over 100 degrees outside.
As soon as the next ECU is installed I'm taking it on an extended trip up north and points east. I plan to put about 3500 mi on it added to the 6000 it has now. We ran the compressor on the test bench for days. We can't spend more time trying for a 100,000 mi test.
There is a new compressor being built right now that has some upgrades in it and we will run it on the test rig for a couple of days then put it in the car. However we are continuing with the productionizing of the other parts concurrently.
We have 40 kits planed for the first run and every part we are now making is in that number or more.
As you can imagine this is no small investment of funds. Not to bitch about it, that's what buisness is about, I just want you to see a little of our side. Don't forget this is not a case of buying someone elses blower and building a kit, that's the easy part.
Thank you for your continued reading of our thread though.

Yeah - what Richard said. Except I'm using an existing compressor.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Richard, you're awesome! I might have to take you out for lunch and some cold beers so I can get another tour of the shop and take a peak at the new unit.

RP when this is ready i will most likely be making a trip up there to have it installed just wanting to see numbers first but im sure that will come with time.

1.SC-ed
2.
3.
4
.
.
.
.
39.
40.

Who's next? :)



j/k (for now)

RP, doing great!!!

1. SC-ed
2. Patrick_Andraste
3.
4
.
.
.
.
39.
40.

Who's next? :)



j/k (for now)

RP, doing great!!!

1. SC-ed
2. Patrick_Andraste
3. h-khunterkiller
4
.
.
.
.
39.
40.

Who's next?



j/k (for now)

RP, doing great!!!

i'm sure it will hit 30 in no time :worship:

1. SC-ed
2. Patrick_Andraste
3. h-khunterkiller
4. sstricker
5.
.
.
.
39.
40.

Who's next?



j/k (for now)

RP, doing great!!!

Damn. Do I need to do up one of these lists?

so what are the design changes and 'upgrades' to the compressor?

so what are the design changes and 'upgrades' to the compressor?



Sorry, top secret. I can't tell everything.

Damn. Do I need to do up one of these lists?
yep ;)

Depending on price, and what EMS is included and such I am very interested.

I would be pretty pretty cool if RP worked with RB to make a custom flash for the supercharguer so you don't need stinking ECU's ;-)

I think that I'm pretty open about wahat we are doing. More so than any other company. I get lots of shit from my partner about talking to much. He should get priority shouldn't he?
The power curve is still being worked on and if I told you every day what it was doing all I'd get was a ration about it wasn't good enough. You will tell me of your buddys turbo gets twice that. All I'd be doing is defending myself on the forum, not working.
So your saying once every month or so or when something significant happens you can't just edit the first post of this thread so someone doesn't have to read 250 pages to figure out what is going on? I don't see anywhere where I complained about so and so's turbo being better?

How long of durability testing do you want? Because we can delay the sale for a couple of years for some real long term tests. Right now we are driving our test car into the ground. I even sat in traffic with it the other day for over four hours. It was over 100 degrees outside.
As soon as the next ECU is installed I'm taking it on an extended trip up north and points east. I plan to put about 3500 mi on it added to the 6000 it has now. We ran the compressor on the test bench for days. We can't spend more time trying for a 100,000 mi test.
I'm trying to make sure I buy a decent product and considering the cost and lack of a proven past on the design in this application in all respects I don't think a few thousand miles on 1 car really says much. Half a dozen cars or so and 1 or 2 with a decent amount of miles would be nice. Being an engineer it's great to have a great idea, but ultimately it's testing that makes or brakes a product don't you think?

As you can imagine this is no small investment of funds. Not to bitch about it, that's what buisness is about, I just want you to see a little of our side. Don't forget this is not a case of buying someone elses blower and building a kit, that's the easy part...Exactly.... one completely new blower on one car... to me that's risky at best.

A new flash would be nice but then everyone under the sun would whine and cry like babies because they'd have to send their ecu out to get flashed. Then they'd complain that they'd have to do it again after they were dumb enough to take their car in to have a dealership work on it because they were a fifth of a quart low on oil and a CEL came on and suddenly a new flash undid the supercharger flash. Great idea but too many people won't be able to accept it as it requires a small amount of financial effort to mail off the ecu and a couple fo days downtime. I may sound like I'm being harsh but the truth hurts. I see how people respond to things they ask for here.

so directions to clip the voltage wire so the pcm cant go to flash mode.

A new flash would be nice but then everyone under the sun would whine and cry like babies because they'd have to send their ecu out to get flashed. Then they'd complain that they'd have to do it again after they were dumb enough to take their car in to have a dealership work on it because they were a fifth of a quart low on oil and a CEL came on and suddenly a new flash undid the supercharger flash. Great idea but too many people won't be able to accept it as it requires a small amount of financial effort to mail off the ecu and a couple fo days downtime. I may sound like I'm being harsh but the truth hurts. I see how people respond to things they ask for here.

While I would agree that sending to RB, or someone else, for a re-flash isn't optimal I would have no issues doing it for this application. If I've got a SC on my car, I'm going to accept at that point I don't have a powertrain warranty and that any CELs are my issue. Why anyone would take an out-of-warranty RX-8 to a dealer is beyond me.

And if later on Richard had an upgraded flash, than I'd again send out the ECU for that. It's the same as going back and leaving the car at a shop to get it re-tuned on the dyno, imo.

i agree a flash would be perfect. in fact when i buy richards blower if it doesnt come with a flash for engine management ill find someone somewhere to make me a custom map to flash to my car and sell whtever richard provides

Well RG be damned, if I can offer this with my kit and save the buyer $1000 plus or minus I don't think a couple of days downtime will stop many customers.

We all know that the car already has all the hardware needed to do the job. Adding a bunch of electronics and wires isn't the ideal answer.

That's another thing, think about not having to mount and wire an aftermarket computer along with the installation of the blower. Besides forcing the customer into having to take his time isn't a bad thing either. What else can he do but do it right when can't drive off yet?? :mdrmed:

Overnight it to us and we overnight it back the same day. That's three days downtime for a huge savings in time and money. I've sold myself. :kiss:

Anyway I'll report on the EMU in about a week or two, maybe more, out of our control. (The O2 harness is on backorder. I hope not 4-8 weeks like they quoted.) :mad:



BTW, none of the above was intended to hint that we are working on this with RB, we are not. We are just watching everybody. Our goal is to give the best value to the end user, we are not going to overlook anyones product.

Umbra, I'll not put your name on one of the first units.
Just bide your time and watch others.
You can get updated by continuing to read the latest pages, why would you want the first one modified?

The fact that you are an engineer makes me confident that you will want one of these units way before you buy anyone elses.

Funny thing, with my past superchargers the biggest group of buyers have been airline pilots and dentists. Makes sense, right?

Well RG be damned, if I can offer this with my kit and save the buyer $1000 plus or minus I don't think a couple of days downtime will stop many customers.

.

Not me, for sure. Being overseas those 1000 are 1000 + $$$ for shipping it's weight + custom taxes ( about 20% of product + shipping.) Not less than 1400$.

Sending an ECU there to "repair" and getting it back doesn't involve any tax here if you do it correctly, only the shipping. So it can easily be a lot less.

I'd prefer not to have to remove the ECU and send it someplace. But I guess that is one option. Putting a new tune-up in just like Mazda does it would be nicer, I reckon.

Cheers,
Hymee.

of course it would be:) of course it would be nice to have that capability packaged in with a piece of software that could monitor the various systems etc just like mazda would with their service tool. you know a can capable program that would read and clear codes etc etc. i wonder who would have a product like that that could flash too......

I'd prefer not to have to remove the ECU and send it someplace. But I guess that is one option. Putting a new tune-up in just like Mazda does it would be nicer, I reckon.

Cheers,
Hymee.



So, do you bring Mohomid to the mountain or vis/vis?

This forum really needs a spell checker.

-Mr. Wigggles

You leave my Gran'ma out of this ;)

This forum really needs a spell checker.

-Mr. Wigggles



I already told you, it doesn't matter for me, because I'm a beautifull woman with hair down to my little waist and large breasts. Therefore the world lets me get away with anything.

Getyahandoffityouoldfartofabastard.

I already told you, it doesn't matter for me, because I'm a beautifull woman with hair down to my little waist and large breasts. Therefore the world lets me get away with anything.

You must be blond. "Beautiful" has one L....;)

This forum really needs a spell checker.

-Mr. Wigggles
Firefox 2.0 will have one built in. :)

You must be blond. "Beautiful" has one L....;)


What the hell do you know about beautiful??
Yes, of course I'm blond.
And you get paid to be supportive.

did Hymlee just say "I reckon"---Hot dang-------- i knew that boy had some south in him!
OD

Being the Good ol' Montana farm boy that I am, I of course have another car, two other trucks and five motorcycles I can drive while I am waiting for my RX-8 ECU to get back to me.

The Cobb thing sounds like the ticket to me ifn' they can make it work.

My Dealership thinks the Mod's I do to my car are cool and they work around them with no problems at all, I am afraid of it getting re-flashed by them though, so having the tool to do the flash myself would be best, or the software load so I could have the dealer flash it for me with the WDS. Because although you have the service manager put it on the ticket, do not re-flash, envarably sooner or later it will happen.

I looked into buying the WDS myself, but I was quoted 6k for it, so I passed on that.

did Hymlee just say "I reckon"---Hot dang-------- i knew that boy had some south in him!
OD


South! you haven't seen south till you've gone below the belt and beyond the international timeline. That's south.
The whirlpools turn backwards!!!!! :Eyecrazy:
It's tomorrow there!!! :hahano:
And they call it "OZ" (I always wondered if that had anything to do with the wizard.) :mdrmed:

Getting a flash is no problem, just contact me I know a few college kids that are bringing that fad back!

You can get flashed all you want.

Well RG be damned, if I can offer this with my kit and save the buyer $1000 plus or minus I don't think a couple of days downtime will stop many customers.

I personally think a flash would be optimal. My point was that we have too many people that just can't be made happy regardless of how easy you make things for them. I say provide a flash if you can and just tell the cry babies to go screw themselves if they don't want to put a small amount of effort into it.

Have you tried looking into possible making your own SAE J2534 pass through device or sourcing one from someone like drewtech where it would include a CAN/OBD2 diagnostic program and the ability to reflash the ECU. Harrison tech already supports it. http://www.obdscan.net/canscan_new.htm

Oh wow, they already have the RX-8 listed on their site.

I would send my ECU with no problems.
It'll take some time for me to get the kit installed anyway, so why not have RP take care of the ECU while I work on the blower? ...Just makes sence, plus if it chops off a $1000 of the bill... It is a good deal the way I see it.
Go RP!!!

yes harrison has supposedly supported that for some time. but it does not allow you to flash custom maps to the PCM. it allows you to use mazda's software available at www.mazdatechinfo.com which only allows you to update your pcm with new mazda flashes. there are otehr threads- including one active just the past couple of weeks- discussing this. but what is listed on the page linked is the diagnostic software for checking cels etc not teh flashing ability which is "future product" and price TBD

the only thing needed to flash on any j2534 device is additional programming voltage as a signal to move into programming mode. it's 18v on pin 13.

some cars dont require the voltage at all. and of course you need a program to do the work.

We all ready know that the boost profile of the blower is relatively linear at 1psi per 1K rpm due to internal compression/ stages of the AFSC.

RP can/would you be willing to tell us what the CFM VS ENGINE RPM profile is going to be with the new design.

some cars dont require the voltage at all. and of course you need a program to do the work.

mazda is required under federal law to give you the program and the flashes for a nominal fee. that's why all the oemtechinfo.com sites exist.

Now as far as putting your own code into the flash.. that's a whole diffrent ballgame.

As far as the voltage, some car's don't need voltage but all CAN cars do as they use the 12v as signaling, so you need a 18-20 V spike to move it to programming mode and then you have to send the right commands to flash.

i jnow that. ive been on this path since 2004 and have read all of the law and various sites about j2534and have gotten a subscription etc etc. what i mean is you cant use the mazda program that is available to flash custom maps. it doesnt work that way. you need a program that asks "which file should i write to the pcm?" and then you select the one you want. the mazda software doesnt do that it just looks in to see what your car has and if there is a newer version in its database it says "there is a newer flash available. flash now?" without allowing you to choose which file.

WOW - shaving $1000 off the price would almost definitley put it over the top for me to order.

I keep weighing in my mind "do I want to put $4000 or more into this car or just apply that to my next car?" The problem is I don't see any current or even future vehicles that really excite me AND fit my needs. I really love all the 2 seat sportscars out there (including the ION redline when that gets released) but since I can only have 1 vehicle- living in NYC, a 2 passenger vehicle isn't practical for me.

The 2008 Camaro seems interesting, but I imagine that would not have the 2 seater like tossability the 3000lb Rx8 has - and that makes me think I should just upgrade the 8 with a supercharger and hold onto it for 10 years.

WOW - shaving $1000 off the price would almost definitley put it over the top for me to order...

Off what price? :scratchhe

I want user end tuneability most preferably in the form of a flash. :crying:

Correct me if im wrong, but without a system where the user can log and make changes, the flashes that will be put on the ECU will be "conservative".

My Rational being that a flash that works great for New Jersey might blow a car up at the top of Mt. McKinley in Colorado. And even not at the extreme, doesn't it bother anyone that with a system like such you could never really maximize the amount of power you're gaining from the FI application.

Let’s say RP makes regional maps based on where you live; What about people like me who take cross-country road trips twice a year, what happens when I cross into higher elevations on a map that designed to work between 0-2000ft above sea level. I'd be nervous to put my foot down.

For all intents and purposes you'd have a "safe map" designed to work during the cold of winter and heat of summer, a map for the guys who think its ok to use 87oct and drive hard, sort of a middle road that doesn't allow you to have full potential.

Moreover, what about mods that affect the fuel mixture, will someone going from the stock exhaust to lets say the TurboXS make his car "run funny"? What if someone decides to add an intercooler to your system because they want to push more boost, or simply because they want to try it out, wouldn't that change all sorts of things the ecu uses to calculate fuel delivery (tube diameter etc...)

Now I maybe talking out of my ass because..... I know that the stock ECU is able to introduce variables of temp., speed, humidity, elevation, etc... into its fuel delivery. Further the stock ecu will continue to advance timing as far as it can do safely dependant on the octane your running based on the amount of times you continuously drive it up to redline. But will your flash be able to take advantage of the cars sensors once you introduce a boost map into the equation?

For a Guy like me I would like the ability to on the fly to be able to upload a map that would give me the best possible map for the heat of summer and the best possible map for the cold of winter, both of which to remaining in a reasonable margin of safety.
But more then that... an on the fly flash tuner will allow you to get into the really cool stuff; A mileage map for long highway drives that you run low boost and lean fuel mixtures and know that you shouldn't push the car hard.
The valet RPM limiting map that I referenced when talking about Cobb tuning, the anti-theft map that won't let the car start unless the thief knows how to operate the flash device.
Track Day Maps
City Driving Maps
ETC ETC ETC.


If im misspeaking please correct me.

oh for fs sake mark- the PCM compensates for ALTITUDE. thats just from your third sentence. ill go read some more

i dont care about the MAX edgge i can tune to , no. i want a nice reliable increase in power. if i want more i can swap a pulley or wait for a "stage 2" upgrade.

read first answering post

the maker of the kit can specify "for x octane and above"

blah blah blah

it doesnt know its in boost it just has more air. the pcm can handle it just fine because it has maps that now cover the increased air.

You already have closed loop lean running.

You already have an immobiliser.
why do you need to load different software for different temps or whatever when the one software has parameters to dealer with the different situations?

i know ther is more there but blah..

I'm not talking about the MAAXXX edge im talking about the spot where YOUR car can run best and still be safe, not where ALL Rx-8's can run decently and for all intents and purposes TOO safe.

If you read my post I came to that point that the ECU does take into account all those variables including ALTITIUDE, im just curious if a "homemade" flash will take advantage of ALL those sensors and ALL those equations that you have to modify once you introduce "extra air" (boost) settings and so forth.

Mileage: You can improve everywhere your car isn't in closed loop; people do it for a reason.

Look at Cobb tunings website they offer different maps for; different octane, California gas, some of their maps REQUIRE the stock intake. Why have different maps for different octane when Rx8's and (assuming) Subaru's Ecu's all have knock prevention built in, do their "homemade" flashes not utilize this timing advance/knock prevention system? Why REQUIRE the stock intake if your ecu/flash can calculate everything in relevant to the air mass coming thought the tube?

Maybe im not hitting on something crucial, I'm far from an expert, but all im saying is that when it comes to flashing user end tunability is preferred and most popular way of doing it.

exactly why does cobb offer all those variables? why ar ethey neccesary? preferred by whom? ask them or SCT the percentage of people who buy just the flasher vs those who get the etc tuner package. besides if they have 10 versions you can switch thru why do you need to make your own? im certain there are more people just flashing.

so the kit maker finds a afr he is happy will make the most power without causing issues and you want him to give you a way to lean it out? so you can knock and blow your engine?

i can see an end user wanting a map that is safe on 87 vs one that was safe on 91 but again thats edge tuning.

some of those others like the stock intake thing are probably from changing the intake tube size with aftermarket intakes. the MAF thinks its in a 3inch tube and you put it in a 4inch tube you have to change the reference table. so they are specifying that you need an intake that has the same tube size as stock.

im not an expert either but you should know better:) the "homemade" flash will be built on whats available to the pcm - so every variable that can be altered by the OEM could be altered by the kit maker. thats the whole point.

the "homemade" flash will be built on whats available to the pcm - so every variable that can be altered by the OEM could be altered by the kit maker. thats the whole point.so exactly why does cobb offer all those variables? why arE they neccesary? :)

ask them:D:

so exactly why does cobb offer all those variables? why arE they neccesary? :)

tuneability...

and it is going to be more important with our ecu...

beers :beer:

the mazda software doesnt do that it just looks in to see what your car has and if there is a newer version in its database it says "there is a newer flash available. flash now?" without allowing you to choose which file.

Humm. It's pretty easy to redirect internet traffic from your PC. What if we use the Mazda program, scan what address it is connecting to, look for the data it retrieves, and fake it so that we can send it our own file?

I assume the real problem is the checksum in the file and getting it (or them) to match so that the file would actually upload.

If our only limit to flashing is because the Mazda program doesn't ask for the file to be used, that would be an easy thing to fix.

Humm. It's pretty easy to redirect internet traffic from your PC. What if we use the Mazda program, scan what address it is connecting to, look for the data it retrieves, and fake it so that we can send it our own file?

I assume the real problem is the checksum in the file and getting it (or them) to match so that the file would actually upload.

If our only limit to flashing is because the Mazda program doesn't ask for the file to be used, that would be an easy thing to fix.

hint.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=81801&highlight=flash+tuning

beers :beer:

obviously it isnt that easy.

tuneability...

and it is going to be more important with our ecu...

beers :beer:+1 for me :) but seriously if you develop a generic flash for all ECU's your going to run into the problem of "funny cars". Where you can't explain why or how, but your flash just doesn't seem to wanna work perfectly with them, and when theres no user end tunability thats a huge problem, you'll have Richard spending all day looking at logs from these "funny cars" going humm why is it this lean here, then asking them to send back an ecu for a re-flash, then sending it back to them. Followed by them saying no still isn't quite right. AND the real bitch of it is, RP will swap their ECU into his car and it will run perfectly fine.

AccessPort from Cobb is 695 bucks for their flasher, then 195 if you want the software to play around with their base maps. Pretty cheap when you consider the cost of getting a piggyback and then something like a Greddy Profec.

Humm. It's pretty easy to redirect internet traffic from your PC. What if we use the Mazda program, scan what address it is connecting to, look for the data it retrieves, and fake it so that we can send it our own file?

I assume the real problem is the checksum in the file and getting it (or them) to match so that the file would actually upload.

If our only limit to flashing is because the Mazda program doesn't ask for the file to be used, that would be an easy thing to fix.

My god man that is exactly what came to my mind when I read it a couple of hours ago. I just never got to writing it. :)

To continue your thought though, how does ECU knows what the checksum for the new flash should be? It does not. The original value must be given to it at the time of reflash.
So if you spoof the Mazda server and load your own flash into the pcm, then and only then it will run a checksum on it, and then if you try to stick something else into it, it will validate it against the checksum it already has.


Usually it works like this:
1 you get the checksum value of the program to be installed.
2 as the file is downloaded into the computer a checksum algorithm is run against it to verify the integrity of a file, which produces a new value.
3 if the value given and the value produced do match, the program is OK to be installed.

Our case:

1. We make the new flash.
2. Run a checksum on it.
3. Spoof the Mazda server.
4. Give the ecu our checksum value.
5. Load our flash into the ecu.

Go R.P!!!

+1 for me :) but seriously if you develop a generic flash for all ECU's your going to run into the problem of "funny cars". Where you can't explain why or how, but your flash just doesn't seem to wanna work perfectly with them, and when theres no user end tunability thats a huge problem, you'll have Richard spending all day looking at logs from these "funny cars" going humm why is it this lean here, then asking them to send back an ecu for a re-flash, then sending it back to them. Followed by them saying no still isn't quite right. AND the real bitch of it is, RP will swap their ECU into his car and it will run perfectly fine.

AccessPort from Cobb is 695 bucks for their flasher, then 195 if you want the software to play around with their base maps. Pretty cheap when you consider the cost of getting a piggyback and then something like a Greddy Profec.


If its gonna save 1000$ off the kit for it to be flashed then whats the problem? If you wanna max tune your car, use the 1000$ you saved and buy a fuel management system and do it.
Maybe you can even get just the kit alone no flash for cheaper. Then you buy a system and tune it your self..

I personally wouldn't want a max tuned kit. I drive my car to work and back 90% of the time. I want something safe and reliable that would take me through the 90% of the driving I do and but add power for the 10% I spend having fun in the car.

+1 for me :) but seriously if you develop a generic flash for all ECU's your going to run into the problem of "funny cars". Where you can't explain why or how, but your flash just doesn't seem to wanna work perfectly with them

Every time I read your posts, I thnk of that Canzoomer article of yours from years ago. I get the impression you're thinking a re-flash is the same ballgame as a Canzoomer. But then you state you understand otherwise, and now I have no idea how you're thinking about this???

1. You in New Jersey, and Me in Chicago, and Zoom44 in Oregon, all have had the same flashes and it's worked. Why would a flash from Richard be any different? People are running catless exhausts and intakes and these flashes still work fine. I'm very confused why you think there would be "funny cars"?

2. I do agree with you that more power could probably be squeezed out of whatever Richard's flash would be. If he wants to give you the capability to upload more agressive maps, or allow you to tune more aggressively, I guess that will be his prerogative.

If you read my post I came to that point that the ECU does take into account all those variables including ALTITIUDE, im just curious if a "homemade" flash will take advantage of ALL those sensors and ALL those equations that you have to modify once you introduce "extra air" (boost) settings and so forth.


Well I would hope so, otherwise we might as well use a carburetor. Factory stock RX-8's don't need a dozen different maps so I hope a RX-8 with a cracked ECU doesn't either.

Hey Umbra, check out Ebay for Latham Supercharger. There is one on there that was sold in Jan 1961 and it is still running. Never in for servicing, and this is the very early type with greased bearings.

There was another 1990 unit on there last week that also has never been back.
How's that for long term testing?

Mark, you can buy a kit with no control and put whatever you want on your car. We might even have one that we tested and can put you right into it. (I'm going to have an EMU available right after we test it.)
But I think the flash will be a better answer. It will be just as viable as it is now just the headroom for airflow has been raised. Plus the mixture gets richer as airflow goes up and the spark falls back. It doesn't need to know it is charged. BTW the car already compensates for altitude up to 125KPS. That function will always be there.
And you owe me a shifter.

MM, you too.

[QUOTE=BaronVonBigmeat]Well I would hope so, otherwise we might as well use a carburetor. QUOTE]


Now that would solve all the problems. I love that idea.

that'd be a nice setup if i had an old cutlass. always thought about getting one of those or a 442 like my uncles drag car

Since I am past 50K miles I dont need to worry about a ECU flash form the dealer no more! Bring it on man, cant wait to try something like this out.

Hey RP, I heard you're going to need a volunteer to test drive your Supercharger so you can get an ubiased opinion... give me a ring. ;) :wiggle:

Ok now I got 1 question. So if say down the road you decide to remove the kit for whatever reason, then what happens to the ecu.
Would the car be atleast driveable? Not in a day to day way, but just to atleast get it to a dealer or or some place to get a flash to return it to stock.
Would you offer reflashing to the lastest factory flash if that happens?
Just wondering...

1. You in New Jersey, and Me in Chicago, and Zoom44 in Oregon, all have had the same flashes and it's worked. Why would a flash from Richard be any different? People are running catless exhausts and intakes and these flashes still work fine. I'm very confused why you think there would be "funny cars"?
You me and zooms cars all dyno differently, produce different levels of power, and obtain different fuel mileage in stock trim (assume that we all live in the same area). On the highway if we all dropped it into 3rd and ran the cars up to the redline there would be a noticeable gap between 1st 2nd or 3rd. Yet we all have the same flash, I weight as much as a size 6 with a little junk in the tunk, charlie is pretty scrawny too, I have yet to see an all encompassing explanation as to why this occurs.

Well I would hope so, otherwise we might as well use a carburetor. Factory stock RX-8's don't need a dozen different maps so I hope a RX-8 with a cracked ECU doesn't either. maybe not a dozen but it does have an idle map, maps for different gears, it trims fuel and advances timing when you push the car hard (i guess you could call that another "map").


Richard when you flash it what parameters are you going to be changing?
Zoom seems to think the MAF will just interpret "boost" as more air flowing at a higher velocity, and adjust the fuel maps to compensate, so what are you exactly changing?

I marked Return to Sender on the package and it came back to me, haven't printed a label yet sorry been busy.

My Rational being that a flash that works great for New Jersey might blow a car up at the top of Mt. McKinley in Colorado. .


As a geologist, you're killing me here. Mt. Mckinley is in central Alaska. In fact, it's further away from Colorado than Colorado is from New Jersey. 2nd, there are no roads to it. Third, everyone calls it Denali these days, even the state of AK is considering officially changing the name.

Sorry you had to bear the brunt of a pet peeve of mine. :spank:

As a geologist, you're killing me here. Mt. Mckinley is in central Alaska. In fact, it's further away from Colorado than Colorado is from New Jersey. 2nd, there are no roads to it. Third, everyone calls it Denali these days, even the state of AK is considering officially changing the name.

Sorry you had to bear the brunt of a pet peeve of mine. :spank:I just laughed very hard.
Hey least I know its the highest peek in the US :)

You me and zooms cars all dyno differently, produce different levels of power, and obtain different fuel mileage in stock trim (assume that we all live in the same area). On the highway if we all dropped it into 3rd and ran the cars up to the redline there would be a noticeable gap between 1st 2nd or 3rd. Yet we all have the same flash, I weight as much as a size 6 with a little junk in the tunk, charlie is pretty scrawny too, I have yet to see an all encompassing explanation as to why this occurs.

Ah okay, I see what you're saying. I'm just saying one flash would work for all of us, just like the factory. I was thinking when you said "funny" that you meant a car wouldn't accept the flash, and/or flat out would not work properly. That's where I brought in the Canzoomer reference.

i jnow that. ive been on this path since 2004 and have read all of the law and various sites about j2534and have gotten a subscription etc etc. what i mean is you cant use the mazda program that is available to flash custom maps. it doesnt work that way. you need a program that asks "which file should i write to the pcm?" and then you select the one you want. the mazda software doesnt do that it just looks in to see what your car has and if there is a newer version in its database it says "there is a newer flash available. flash now?" without allowing you to choose which file.

all you need is a analyzer on the command sent over the wire and a known flash file. then replace with your own and wirte your own program. same way the original xbox was cracked.

of course i dont mean to sound as if im opposed to the hand held flash tuners and having hte ability to tweak via a software package. if you dotn run a cat you could gain some power and lean it out without worry about the rise in EGT that much. some of you know of my year or so long attempts with SCT and others. im more or less playign devil's advocate on richards side. and of course if he keeps waiting and no hand held unit becomes available how long should he keep his sc off the marlket if he has a "send it in" method available. thats really the point here.

aseras it is "simple" on paper but i dont see anyoen doing it- because its not that simple in doing it or all these IT types on this forum would have found a way to do it- same with the mazda6tech guys. of course you have to crack the code and know what to change in the file too.

speaking of which, did you get my email?

Hey least I know its the highest peek in the US :)

Just not how to spell "peak."

;)

that'd be a nice setup if i had an old cutlass. always thought about getting one of those or a 442 like my uncles drag car


That wasn't the point. The point was it has lasted this long, just like the rest of them. Show me another supercharger that has this record of durability. Just about everyone of them that wasn't abused is still alive.

The other thing you missed was that this blower was built for a SBC. In fact it was installed in Elvis ex BMW 507. The DJ that owned it had blown the BMW. I have heard from my friend Jack Vines who is a brain trust of all things automotive old.
He informed me that Tommy Charles was a very popular DJ in the south until he ran a campain against the Beatles.

Another fact he gave was that his co DJ on the station was named Doug Latham. He also had a ride in the car with Charles back in the '60's. Trivia for you.

Now someone find me that car. I had a small format magazine from the '60's with an article on the car. Don't know what happened to it though.

i know what your point ws and i read your comment:) i m just saying i always thought about getting a cutlass or a 442 and if i had one and the money id grab that in aheartbeat. especially since it has a history. I even know who Tommy Charles is (beatle fan here)

http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm

How long has that been up?

Richard i never got an answer, what exactly will your flash do? Why does the flash have to be different in FI applications; if your just using the MAF to say to the PCM that o there is more air coming in here lets add more fuel, why does everyone have separate flashes for FI applications, including RB who say "This flash is not intended for highly modified engines (ported, supercharged or turbocharged)".

BTW it would be awesome if whoever your developing this flash with to include such things as RB did; lowering the temperatures which the cooling fans turn on; and rasing the rev limit once you get the mixture right up there which will allow you to push a hair more boost too.

Map load points have to be changed for forced induction as opposed to naturally aspirated use. There are only so many map points and you want to use as many of them as possible. Let's say we have a naturally spirated engine. Let's also say that we have 16 map points for load. Could be more but this is just an example. Optimally we want to have the greatest vacuum the engine will ever see as somewhere below idle load level, say around 20 kpa or so. If our engine hits 100% efficiency at all, we know we need a max load point around here. Since the engine only hits this for a very small area, we don't need any higher. Let's set this max load point at 100 kpa. Now we've got a nice fine resolution of load points to fine tune with.

For forced induction, our load points go much higher. We need to change the load points to account for this as we only have so many points to work with. The more boost you intend to run, the higher the load points need to go and the farther apart the tuning points are which means less resolution. You wouldn't want the factory flash to have the map points built in to account for boost as you wouldn't have the fine tuning resolution that you do if it uses more of them. The more bost you run, the less resolution between points you have. Now we may want to have the top pressure level to be set to 200 kpa or possibly higher depending on how much boost you want to run. 200 kpa is half the resolution as 100 kpa. If you built this into the stock flash, you'd only be tuning with half as many points. Why would anyone do that?

On top of all of this, even if we build in the required load points to account or boost we still can not create a generic map for forced induction use unless we know exactly what turbo/supercahrger will be used, intake, exhaust, etc will go with it. The ecu will have load points that will understand pressure but it still won't know amount of airflow. I know that the car already has a mass air flow sensor so it would seem to account for this but this still doesn't make it possible to use one flash properly for all forms of forced induction. Flow is more important than the pressure it is at.

If Richard comes up with a flash, it wil need to run a little bit rich with the timing slightly retarded for safety. Keep in mind it doesn't have to run bad to do this. It's just safe. This way it would have a little built in safety for different exhaust, intake, fuel grade, etc. One flash can never under any circumstances do everything great. It can do what you need it to do great or you can make it do a little bit of everything but not necessarily well. You need a tailor made tune for different types of setups.

Thank you for that it made things much clearer.


If Richard comes up with a flash, it wil need to run a little bit rich with the timing slightly retarded for safety.
I've mentioned that the ecu pushes timing when driven hard up until the point where the knock sensor says "ok enough". Will the ecu continue to do that even if RP does retard it for safety?

Further will this still remain a "learning ECU" after Richard's flash?

One flash can never under any circumstances do everything great. It can do what you need it to do great or you can make it do a little bit of everything but not necessarily well.
Agreed, I just tend to have the personality type that when you have something and its not living up to its potential because it has to appease the majority it should be changed (much like the political climate of today :nono:)

I want Richard to release this damn thing, its certainly been a while, but I just don't want the market to float into complacency with "im ok with mailing my ECU". 1) Because practically no other brand of car has to deal with it, 2) because without the demand no one will ever develop it.

Unfortunately the stock knock sensor is practically useless. It doesn't do anything functionally to stop detonation and it retards timing when it hears many other things that aren't detonation. It is a pretty lousy knock sensor to put any faith in. Mazda didn't do so well with the sensor on this car.

1st richard doesnt have aflash yet this is all speculation.


2nd of course it stays a learning pcm etc. you have not changed the firmware, you havent changed how it works only what it does. you havent told it how to drive only told it a different destination. your not telling it how to build you are only tellling it "make this instead"

ill try to come up with a couple other ways of sayign that if you dont get them:D:

aseras it is "simple" on paper but i dont see anyoen doing it- because its not that simple in doing it or all these IT types on this forum would have found a way to do it- same with the mazda6tech guys. of course you have to crack the code and know what to change in the file too.

speaking of which, did you get my email?

Got your email.. and I am "doing it" or at least trying too. Job and the GF are killing me lately.. just lost my tech so I gotta do all his work and all my work now.

Last time I took my car into mazda I had a little something hooked up to the obd port. haven't had time to really check on the integrity of the data.. and to figure out all that they did.. I need to align it right and figure out what is "says" :)

The ability to change more than just the fuel and spark maps would probably be good... particularly with FI. What I am thinking about are things like the DBW throttle, SDAIS and such...

What would you want changed with DBW throttle?

Cheers,
Hymee - "Market Researcher"

What would you want changed with DBW throttle?

Cheers,
Hymee - "Market Researcher"

Programmed restrictions... like keeping the throttle open during shifts and there is something else that it likely has related to hard launches.

Programmed restrictions... like keeping the throttle open during shifts and there is something else that it likely has related to hard launches.

Do you believe it does that already?

Perhaps we should take this to PM, or another thread. Don't want to hijack this thread anymore.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Programmed restrictions... like keeping the throttle open during shifts and there is something else that it likely has related to hard launches.

launch control, i like it...

adjustment for tire size, and idle rpm, and the ability to kill the cel for a given problem...

humm, where did i see this before???? it escapes me now..

beers :beer:

This thread has turned into a ECU/flash thread; even if it is related to the AFSC.


Have not heard from RP hopefully everything is going well with his court stuff so he can get back to work. RP sue the crap out of them that way we all get free AFSC's :lol: :fingersx:

Richard is doing good. He's redesigning some issues that he knows can be improved upon. Doing it properly. Sometimes it's frustrating but it's better to do it right the first time than to do it over again. Take K&N as an example.

This thread always gets side tracked! ;)

Unless I am WAY off in left field here....

The RX8 has two devices that pretty much make the installation of the ubiquitous (sp) Power Adder much easier than most other cars.

1) Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF)
2) Wide Band Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor WB HEGO

With a wide band, if you "run out of MAF" it is really not too much of a problem as long as the load tables are correct. The ECU/ECM/PCM whatever you like to call it, *should* still use command "WOT" AFR, and be able to verify with the WB. The WB allows this, a standard HEGO sensor is utterly blind below 95% and above 105% stoich.

I am pretty sure, but not positive, that as long as the command AFR is "safe" for the AFSC, and the WB can and does operate at "full load" (ie: WOT conditions), it should not require drastic changes in the tables and maybe not even a reflash.

I have read every page, and searched this site, but I cannot make any truely informed as the the viability of this idea, but "It sounds good on paper" lol.

Most EFI vehicles with a MAF sensor "run" off the HEGO (Narrow band) until "WOT", at which time the PCM switches to the MAF and what's called "look up tables". So if you run out of MAF signal (signal over 4.99V indicates the airflow is greater than the MAF and PCM are PROGRAMMED for), the PCM is "lost", because command AFR is WAY too rich for a NB HEGO to read at all. So you run the very real risk of grenading the engine due to lean AFRs and/or excessive knock due to incorrect spark timing.

The way I understand it, a WB equipped PCM/ECM will use this sensor even DURING WOT to verify that the AFR is correct for "WOT". The MAF may very well run off the map, but we could possibally rely on the WB and eliminate all the messing around with flashes, stand alone ECUs, etc.

I don't know, COULD it work?

it might work but the one time it doesn't work is when you do grenade the engine.. especially in the open to closed loop switchover areas.. also the engine is likely to enrich the piss out of the afr. that's the whole point of the tables. they need to be ajusted as everything is going to change. timing will need to be changed. spark firing will need to change too. there are also other routines in the pcm that will need to be removed or bypassed.. like the save the cat feature...

I understand that, but how far off the end of the MAF range will this be. If not way far, and most MAFs will flow lots more than the engine can, 100% load is still 100% load.

IAT affacts timing, so increased inlet temps will cause spark retard = GOOD.

At 100% load the PCM wants a specific AFR, the WB is the feedback to verify the correct fuel rate. Unless you NEED a different AFR with the AFSC, the factory setting should be ok (but I do not know what that setting is, so it well be too lean).

When you really tune a car by programming, all you do is specify different values. If the factory values are ok, but the MAF runs off the end a little, that should not be any real problem given the WB.

The WB feedback doesn't do anything when you are running in open loop - as what happens during WOT, or anthing other than light throttle openings or light cruise. Target AFR is only used in closed loop.

The potential problem will be when the airflow exceeds that of the range of the MAF, and the MAF has reached it peak voltage. More airflow will not make more volts, unless a different (bigger) MAF is used, in which case the PCM needs to be re-calibrated for the different MAF. There is also the question of the MAF being a restriction during these higher flow conditions.

Cheers,
Hymee.

maybe why they use two of them on the skyline, even when converting to a single turbo

Alright here's a hint. We just put a new SC on the car with no aftermarket controls on it. Therefore we have a very large pulley up top for min boost. 140mm vs 100mm that will be used standard. I went and put a full tank of 101 in it and ran some tests. I should say test...... The first try had detonation at about ~8000 and ~4+ psi. I'm going to try it again and get better numbers. More exact that is.

That I assume ends the above argument.

We have a new ECU and that will be next.

Sweet RP, I might have to swing by the shop again some time soon. Let me know if you ever want some company on a weekend and I'll bring the cold beers.

RP and Hymee,

Don' get me wrong, I an SURE you fellas know what it needs. I was just thinking on "paper" as it were.

I did not know that the RX8 went to open loop so early or easily, other vehicles that I am familiar with do not. That itself ends the discussion, no to mention RPs tests.

Alright here's a hint. We just put a new SC on the car with no aftermarket controls on it. Therefore we have a very large pulley up top for min boost. 140mm vs 100mm that will be used standard. I went and put a full tank of 101 in it and ran some tests. I should say test...... The first try had detonation at about ~8000 and ~4+ psi. I'm going to try it again and get better numbers. More exact that is.

That I assume ends the above argument.

We have a new ECU and that will be next.


thanks for the update richard...

while the stock pcm maf idea might work on a piston engine, rotary just eat so much air there's no way it's going to handle a significant increase in volume like fi on a rotary will produce.

mind if I ask what you think the cfm is where it was detonating? then you can get back to work. I expect a AFSC for my birthday on Oct 2nd :)

ModMech, what cars use the O2 at WOT? The 8 acts just like all other cars I know- get up around 50% power or get the RPM's up and they jump to pre-calculated lookup tables with the LTFT as the only adjuster.

Just interested to know what cars are out there that self tune deeper intop the power output.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=82131&stc=1
Here is the MAF voltage to g/s scale graph that represented by 48 cells data referenced by the OEM flash image. The max value is 4.68v -> 365 g/s.

The load axis is another story, for FI application to work properly they will need to be rescaled. Currently I think it's only go up to 120% load, so low boost (2-3psi) may be ok in stock form.

i know damon was talkign to me about a map they had for FI(an SC i think) that went up to 200 load. or was it VE? anyway they had a good map. he's not at RB anymore i hear..

seik did you find that in the flash? excellent work!

Lots of Ford stuff is closed loop to 70%-80% load. The deceptive part is this can happen at 1/3 throttle, or not. It depends on the RPM involved.

I do not think I said anything did use an O2 at WOT, in fact I think I at least implied that you CANNOT use an O2 at WOT, or even anything close to it because of the super narrow range it can read in. A WB however, can "read" from 11.5ish to 16:1 AFRs, so it is possible to use them even at WOT.

Chevy has an interesting system in place with the LS1 ecu's that still allows the car to run well if the MAF shorts out. Some of those guys simulate a shorted out MAF to the ecu and suddenly the car runs in speed density mode. It's not as easy as just unplugging the MAF altogether but it might be as easy as shorting out 2 wires or just cutting one of them. I'm not quite sure. I've never seen this tried on any other car and not even until the Camaro guys were mentioning it. It would be interesting to see if this works on other ecu's or if it is unique to only those. They do get a CEL but that's understandable. Whether it would work on these cars or not, at the very least it is curious.

Yep - it is quite common to get a MAF-less tune in an LS1, and without a cell - but they have a slight advantage - the LS1 also has a MAP sensor. The RX-8 doesn't :(

This Makes it easier to tune for boost on an LS1, an perhaps a little more of a challange on the '8.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Yeah a map sensor would make a difference.

OK I didn't think anyone out there in RX land would remember the Latham supercharger. So I droped that name for this new unit. But for those who do remember I am the designer and builder of the Latham Supercharger.

Forgive my ignorance on this Richard, but wasn't the Latham supercharger designed and built by Norman Latham in 1955?

If you are Latham, that would make you at least 70 years old! (Which is awesome, but unexpected.)

Jeff... you're going to get flamed for that one. It was mentioned MUCH earlier in the thread... richard bought the company and patent years ago (if I am remembering this right).

HaHa, You're both sorta right. Norm Latham designed and built the first axial flow supercharger in 1956 and sold them until 1965. I bought the company in 1982. I then discovered the flaws in the design and gave up the project. Not being the type that likes to fail I redesigned and retooled a new "Latham" in '83.

The "new" one had aerodynamic blades and inlet, outlets. New belt design and modern carbs. Norm was 76 when I first called him on the phone in '82. He was a clever machinest but knew little of airflow. Still he built the best blower of the time by far. It just cost way more then anything else. If you put 354 sheet metal blades into rings by hand you can understand why.

Gm used them alot on their show cars and even the Mako Shark had one. Several GM execs had them on their fishing boats.

I had the same problem of cost and only built them for 8 years until I designed the billet method of producing them. That was even more expensive and only sold to car companys and airplane builders. A few compressors for odd uses were built.

It wasn't until 1998 that this new method of construction was devised and it is possable to build them at reasonable costs. It all has to do with CAD and CNC.

I kept the name Latham in the '80's because I promised the old man that I would. Now there are not many people who remember the name so I dropped it.

So no I'm not that old Jeff. Althogh Katwoman is visiting and last night about 2am I felt like I was 70. :sweatdrop

As long as you keep hitting it, it doesn't matter how you feel after!

I remember hearing about Latham SCs from time to time growing up. They were kind of mythical, they were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread, but they'd only been rarely seen, if even that.

the thing i've always wanted to ask richard is how he gets around the problem of compressor surges with this type of compressor...

I work with large axial flow compressors in the power industry and they are very grumpy when it comes to sudden speed and load changes - even with elaborate blowoff systems

but then again... mine are a bit bigger and have 17 stages (similar to this guy but a bit bigger)
http://www.powergeneration.siemens.com/img/pool/3024_10.jpg

the thing i've always wanted to ask richard is how he gets around the problem of compressor surges with this type of compressor...

I work with large axial flow compressors in the power industry and they are very grumpy when it comes to sudden speed and load changes - even with elaborate blowoff systems

but then again... mine are a bit bigger and have 17 stages (similar to this guy but a bit bigger)
http://www.powergeneration.siemens.com/img/pool/3024_10.jpg


You answered part of the question yourself. I don't ask high loads per section as is common in commercial usage. Of course that is only part of the answer, the rest of the stuff is kinda what my work has been for 20 years. In SC use it must run from idle up to redline, in jet turbine usage the max is 65% of the range.

You can understand that I can't tell you how it's done. I can tell you that I don't know everything about it and sometimes run into designs that have stalls or surges somewhere in the band of operation. In fact one of the rx8 units along the way had flaws because we made a dimension change without going through a complete analysis of the aero characteristics.

It's tricky, nice to see someone appreciates that.

the thing i've always wanted to ask richard is how he gets around the problem of compressor surges with this type of compressor...

I work with large axial flow compressors in the power industry and they are very grumpy when it comes to sudden speed and load changes - even with elaborate blowoff systems

but then again... mine are a bit bigger and have 17 stages (similar to this guy but a bit bigger)
http://www.powergeneration.siemens.com/img/pool/3024_10.jpg
I don't think that is going to fit in the 8's engine bay!!!!!!!!!! :) :mdrmed:

I don't think that is going to fit in the 8's engine bay!!!!!!!!!! :) :mdrmed:

but if it did, it flows enough to support 162,263hp at 3600 rpms :bowdown:

.....O.< [twitch]

but if it did, it flows enough to support 162,263hp at 3600 rpms :bowdown:

yeah and .0000042 mpg...

yeah and .0000042 mpg...

with some bolt ons you could improve that !

but if it did, it flows enough to support 162,263hp at 3600 rpms
... dude that wing I got from autozone should help with the downforce.

You need some stckers too, can't forget the stickers.

Yeah a type RP sticker that's good for at least another 10 hp.

Might be one of my stickers in there as well... :evil_laug :dunno: :fingersx:

Cheers,
Hymee.

Might be one of my stickers in there as well... :evil_laug :dunno: :fingersx:

Cheers,
Hymee.


I have one of your stickers Hymee, I don't know what to do with it. :dunno:

Yeah - that tricked ya!

clicked again

I have one of your stickers Hymee, I don't know what to do with it. :dunno:


Your suppose to put it on top of the SC when you dispay it and take a picture of it when it's for sale. :yelrotflm :beer05: ah.....

Only to remind people what exhaust is behind it :)

Your suppose to put it on top of the SC when you dispay it and take a picture of it when it's for sale. :yelrotflm :beer05: ah.....



How did you see the PM that Hymee sent me?
Those are his exact words.

Heh, look what I found on ebay. An Axial Flow supercharger on sale!

The old Latham one :rock:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Latham-Supercharger_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34198QQihZ 008QQitemZ180012350347QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

How did you see the PM that Hymee sent me?
Those are his exact words.

When you want to razz someone and you have a great sense of humor like those Ozzies down under, I suppose great minds think a like.

If I wanted to razz you those are the words I would use, looks like Hymee used them too!

Looks like my joking did too! :Eyecrazy: :hahano:

Been following this thread for a year or so. I check in evey couple of months. Looks like its time to subscribe for the updates. RP, you sure have put in the R & D. I'm interested. Can't wait to see what you finally come up with to offer. Thank you for all your hard work.

good work RP..I am gettign an engine swap done now...so I will have a new home for my SC..

Proud of you man...

RP my be holding the future of the RX 8 and I dont think he knows it.
OD

I am lookin for power for my car.... wat is the best thig to do??? can u guys please help me... I want something good but doesnt mess up y car at the same time...

I'm really hoping for a power option that does mess up my car. That would be awesome.

RP my be holding the future of the RX 8 and I dont think he knows it.
OD
If he is, he knows it. :ylsuper:
What will really amaze people, I think, is how tiny the axial-flow unit actually is.
It really makes for a compact installation.

You've got to see it in person to fully appreciate how cool it really is.

Hey Rotary God.. I did get to see it in person, well not the whole unit just the internals ha ha, sad to say I did not ask any technical questions when I was there “limited knowledge of that stuf”...But I am damm well sure getting it.

Hmmmm...hey RP....did I mention a new home for you SC...:)

I Should get my car back in Hmmm " not sure how long they will take to put my 4 rotor engine in...:).." J/K

You've got to see it in person to fully appreciate how cool it really is.
Indeed! :naughty:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/af.jpg

If he is, he knows it. :ylsuper:
What will really amaze people, I think, is how tiny the axial-flow unit actually is.
It really makes for a compact installation.

hehhe i held it last 7stock- it is SMALL! nice pic you found there :)

nice pic you found there :)
Some details blurred to protect the innocent!

I knew it!

You've got to see it in person to fully appreciate how cool it really is.


This is not an understatement. Doesn't get HOT like those Turbo's.

Looks cool, runs cool.

This is not an understatement. Doesn't get HOT like those Turbo's.


Sure it does. Its under the hood, so it gets as hot as everything else.
Plus, anything that generates pressure makes some heat - the axial just doesn't make much heat because it isn't working very hard in this application.

Turbos don't present a real heat issue until you place then right next to something that doesn't like to be heated. Even then, it can be mitigated to an extent by thermal control counter-measures like wrap, coating and shielding.

Mounting one near the exhaust manifold (like my setup and the GReddy kit) does nothing measurable to the under-hood temps in normal operating circumstances.

Indeed! :naughty:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/af.jpg



Gheeezzz, how'd you get that picture? That's the new compressor having only been built about a week ago. Like Rod Stewart says "Every picture tells a story"
There's alot to be seen in this picture. The new volute is obvious but what else is there? :dunno:

The official introduction will be at Seven Stock in Oct. :mdrmed:

No intercooler ? - I like that !

Some details blurred to protect the innocent!



Or to cover up the shitty looking prototype stuff.

No intercooler ? - I like that !
None needed at the current PR with such an efficient compressor.

Or to cover up the shitty looking prototype stuff.
Shh! :nono:

It is merely a "glow" to accentuate the beautiful bits!

Nice job Richard! Looking forward to seeing you again.

Nice job Richard! Looking forward to seeing you again.agreed! see you at 7s9! Can't wait to see your beautiful yellow friend there, either :)

but what else is there? :dunno:

The official introduction will be at Seven Stock in Oct. :mdrmed:


is this like 20 questions?

i see a new oil line tapped to the top of the volute, the throttle body is move to its new location at the front of the carbon fiber piece. i see a prototype blue elbow at the back of the Axcharger. the stages seem to be a different color than the inlet and outlets- different material or just lighting/angle?

what else? is that brake distribution block moved? i dont see the strut brace... new pulley/assembly on the front of the Axcharger? of course there is the absence of visual to think about:) the upper intake mani is blurred as well as that " shitty looking prototype" intake/filter box. so that answers a question fo r the "can we keep our current company B aftermarket intake box" crowd. no space for it folks.

Wow. I like this game. Maybe I'll post pics of extreme close-ups of misniscule parts and you can guess what they are and where they belong! :ylsuper:

Next project, the Axial Flow titanium front strut brace..... ;)

Tough to weld, but would look trick.

Actually, a trick steel one would suffice..... :)

"Axcharger"?

That's a pretty sweet name. Maybe a good brand name? It got zero google hits so it is definitely original.

-Mr. Wigggle

i might of missed this but.. Can the stock strut bar still fit? or what?

RP send me one of the old designs of the AFSC So I can show it off at NOPI Nationals in September.

I will send it back to you after nationals

Save it for a flywheel.
The kit will have it's own intake. The one on the car is a prototype just so we could get runing. We're thinking CF. how would you like that?

And of course there will be a strut bar in the kit too. Not CF though, 4130.
Would I let you down at this point? The hard part is over. The other things are dressing.

Dookie....this was post 3274, I can't believe you don't remember it!

all arbon fiber ALL OF IT :rock:

Dookie....this was post 3274, I can't believe you don't remember it!

haha opps.. i told you i missed sumthing

Brilliant Shine Jeff - :p:

Indeed! :naughty:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/af.jpg

I know i ll be flamed in no-time but i had some time to watch this thread and i missed arround140pages!!!xexe

What will be the whp gains and the torque gains for the af sc??And will we have to change any of the exhaust's system parts??I mean can the sc play with the stock exahust system-header,cat,exhaust-or will be needed to change anything??-i have already changed everything there though...

I know i ll be flamed in no-time but i had some time to watch this thread and i missed arround140pages!!!xexe
If you don't have the time to read the thread, we don't have the time to answer you.:hahano:

I've been following this since I signed up for these boards and it's nice to finally see it come to fruition!

Can't wait for October and it's official introduction! Congrats!

If you don't have the time to read the thread, we don't have the time to answer you.:hahano:
very few people have time to read the WHOLE thread...its too long to just be starting now lol...

1 minute a page...257 pages...thats only a little over 4 hours of straight reading ;)

very few people have time to read the WHOLE thread...its too long to just be starting now lol...

No it is not.
As a matter of fact it makes a very interesting read, especially the first 2/3 of it, where tons of stuff is discussed from aerodynamics to ships and rocket science (along the rotaries and chargers).

R.P.
It is great to hear that you are getting closer to the release. :)
Keep it up.

so has this supercharger developed yet??? If so, who can I call to enquire about it.

ok, October is the release date. my bad for not reading

Oh dear....

Richard Paul would be my first point of contact. You will find him here, or in the sunny state of California, or at www.axialflow.com

If you don't have the time to read the thread, we don't have the time to answer you.:hahano:


Hey nice answer man..You didn't have time to answer me but you had time to make a useless post!!Nice

You have greek roots too??Thanks bro

Hey nice answer man..You didn't have time to answer me but you had time to make a useless post!!Nice

You have greek roots too??Thanks bro
Παίρνετε τι πληρώνετε για! :ylsuper:

Take what you pay for?

Did you understand what you wrote mate or just a translation in babelfish?? :ylsuper:

Milame ta Ellinika sto spiti - dhen ghrapsime Ellinika, moonga!

moonga or maga??anyway we must stop the offtopic in such a serious topic...

ok, October is the release date. my bad for not reading
no actual realese date yet. oct is a maybe

Those of us who spend considerable time tutoring or individually coaching others on how to improve the performance of their cars are sometimes annoyed by those who refuse to get up to speed and read the threads fully, especially given the time it takes to write and manage them. If MM gets frustrated once in a while like I do, I understand that.

october at 7stock it definite

that might be the public showing but when are they going on sale?

its the woreld debut baby- you will be able to buy a kit that weekend absolutely. possibly before- depending on production quantities:)

not that im speaking for axialflow engineering or its owners etc etc all that legalise.

I vote for before so I can enjoy the drive from Vegas

So Richard has found a good solution for the electronics?

So Richard has found a good solution for the electronics?
Of course.

I wonder how he did it :rolleyes:

:mdrmed:

Me too! Must be magic.

Jeff, could you go back to yesterdays avitar?
It's probably only a frame or two but it was better.

How about this one? Its one of my faves (some of you might recognize the girl on the left).

I know i ll be flamed in no-time but i had some time to watch this thread and i missed arround140pages!!!xexe

What will be the whp gains and the torque gains for the af sc??And will we have to change any of the exhaust's system parts??I mean can the sc play with the stock exahust system-header,cat,exhaust-or will be needed to change anything??-i have already changed everything there though...


Actually, i have a pet peeve about this search vs ask issue. If this was a reference site with strict and proper taging then searching would be easy enough. But its not, its a community site. Why should you be flamed, just because you have neither the time nor possibly the inclination to trawl through 100's of pages of what is often nothing more than chit-chat?

Communities thrive through its members helping each other. If you have the knowledge, and you can help somebody by saving them time, then help them if you so wish. If you cant be bothered well thats fine too. Its your prerogative, but dont put them off asking somebody else. They are not wasting your time.

.... + the more a question is asked and answered the easier it is to get an accurate return on a search query


i feel better now, having got that off my chest :)

agreed :)

Actually, i have a pet peeve about this search vs ask issue. If this was a reference site with strict and proper taging then searching would be easy enough. But its not, its a community site. Why should you be flamed, just because you have neither the time nor possibly the inclination to trawl through 100's of pages of what is often nothing more than chit-chat? God no kidding. Granted that the answer is usually *somewhere* in the 100's of threads that are returned when you search for something, but who has the time to wade through all that crap.

On the other side of the coin there, there are plenty of answers to very common questions that are very easy to find if searched for. It's those common inquiries that I think most people have a problem with.

With that said, has a price been set on the kit yet? I haven't seen any information regarding as such........

I'm pretty excited about this and I believe in richards work. When the time comes for me to buy a blower, I'd much rather give my money to him than say...greddy.

but who has the time to wade through all that crap.
We did - when we supplied the answers the first time.
If you don't have the time to look, we don't have the time to write.

There are three types of people on this forum:

The people that provide the answers, the people that ask the questions and the repeaters/recyclers.

90% of the bandwidth is chatter between the latter two about the first group's stinginess.

And what are you man???The key to all our answers??Know you are just a chatter!!Relax a bit...No time no post!!Its easy!

^^ Did you get that from Babelfish? Syntax...

How about this one? Its one of my faves (some of you might recognize the girl on the left).


That's a good choice, but no I don't know her. :yumyum:

am i the only guy in the world that doesn't like lesbians?

yes

am i the only guy in the world that doesn't like lesbians? Just because they are engaging in deep intralabial stimulation does not make them gay. That is a very "man" point of view.
Both of these girs are straight in their normal day-to-day lives. (Well, the one on the left is; I'm not so sure about the other.) They just lack the inhibitions that exists between males.

And, to answer your question - yes.

They just lack the inhibitions that exists between males.Thank god. I don't know if I'd call it inhibition, but ... well, I'll let the picture do the talking.

http://img.ircimages.com/ircimages/4/a/4ae51a2cee703d8b91894b7311f02d71.gif

I hope you know them but if don't I would Like to meet them :rock:

am i the only guy in the world that doesn't like lesbians?


I only dislike the ones that dont share themselves or their partners WITH ME :bootyshak

michael

Just because they are engaging in deep intralabial stimulation does not make them gay. That is a very "man" point of view.
Both of these girs are straight in their normal day-to-day lives. (Well, the one on the left is; I'm not so sure about the other.) They just lack the inhibitions that exists between males.

And, to answer your question - yes.


Ja sure you betch Ja...

I take offense to your avitar Jeff.

However, I never said anything. I just don't think it's appropiate.

But, then again I believe in God.

Your avaitar insults me and others.

I just think you can make a better choice.

But oh well... what the Hell..

What does God have to do with it? If your God (or his appointees) lead you to believe that any of his creatures are any lesser than you in his eyes, than you are the one subject to scorn.
But I digress.
Lesbians love boost.

am i the only guy in the world that doesn't like lesbians?

:uhh: I don't like all lesbians... I met her on the PGA tour her name is... Unibrow :puke:

;)

God says not to judge... yet he gave us opinion. :dunno:


To digress even more than MM... and get us back on track lesbians like axial flow superchargers. :rofl:

How about this one? Its one of my faves (some of you might recognize the girl on the left).

The hair colour is familiar. Is she from Chicago??

:uhh: I don't like all lesbians... I met her on the PGA tour her name is... Unibrow :puke:

;)

God says not to judge... yet he gave us opinion. :dunno:


To digress even more than MM... and get us back on track lesbians like axial flow superchargers. :rofl:

hot women are hot... two hot women are still hot...

duh..

beers :beer:

MazdaManiac's Three Rules of Club/Lounge/Bar Dating:

1) Go Ugly Early
2) If a girl doesn't meet your standards, lower your standards
3) No two girls together are ugly
4) No girl is ugly with your #&*! in her mouth

That's it. I'm out a here. I'll check back in when the crap gets cleaned out and I don't have to keep getting this junk in my email. This thread was suposed to be about a supercharger. :icon_no2:

MazdaManiac's Three Rules of Club/Lounge/Bar Dating:

1) Go Ugly Early
2) If a girl doesn't meet your standards, lower your standards
3) No two girls together are ugly
4) No girl is ugly with your #&*! in her mouth

Juanjux aditional Rule:

j-5) If a girl still doesn't meet your standards, after having lowered them, take the standards barrier and launch it as far as you can.

That's it. I'm out a here. I'll check back in when the crap gets cleaned out and I don't have to keep getting this junk in my email. This thread was suposed to be about a supercharger. :icon_no2:

:eek: :scared: :eyetwitch :squint: :rofl:

Razz1 threw a wrench into the thread :lol: now back on track.

Whoops looks like RP threw the wrench in asking MM to change his vatar and then everyone chiming in to voice their opinion of the new one...

The topic is the RX-8 Axial Flow Supercharger ;).

Now that I've deleted over 2 pages of crap, please keep it on topic.

So the electronics are settled at last? I wonder if RP managed to get a flash or if he is using something like the new version of "Rick Shaw" unit...?

So the electronics are settled at last? I wonder if RP managed to get a flash or if he is using something like the new version of "Rick Shaw" unit...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanjux
So Richard has found a good solution for the electronics?

Of course.
__________________



i have know idea what is going on here.

beers :beer:

something about an RB flash had been mentioned, IIRC...

something about an RB flash had been mentioned, IIRC...

I don't remember any confirmation of that though.

Now that I've deleted over 2 pages of crap, please keep it on topic.

I'm allowed to go off topic in this thread. I'm one of few that has express permission from Richard to do so. It's in my employment contract... :)

MM, is the redhead on the left from Chicago?....I don't know if you answered the question earlier....