Yes, you are wrong. It is not about economy. The SC is building pressure, which is not needed at cruising speeds (no engine load). The bypass valve keeps that intake pressure low. Think of it as a blow-off valve (kind of).

"Not needed" - who cares if it isn't needed? You only deal with "not needed" stuff if they are doing harm. The harm in this case is the wasted energy that hurts MPG.

A blow off-valve is there because turbos can overpressure when you close the throttle and this hurts the turbo bearings, the throttle plate bushings, and slows the turbo, creating more lag. Crank driven SC's don't have overpressure issues because they don't have any inertia like a turbo does- they always follow the crank speed.

I wasn't flaming you in fact I said a couple of nice things.

When it comes to the airplane, my bad, I didn't think homebuilts. My thought when you said 200 MPH it must be a Moody or a Saratoga with a 300hp in it. Therefore I was thinking 13 GPH. So ban me.

All of it sounds like great milage to me. I'm used to a Merlin.
I no longer fly since I lost three of my best freinds, great pilots all. Just as Reno racers they liked flying close to the ground. Always feels faster that way, doesn't it. In Zeuschel's case it wasn't that, it was a flame out in an F-86.

It's not out of my element at all, I'm just a little dated. Maybe jaded. Homebuilt to me means a P-51 with short wings and a tiny canopy. In one case even the underscoop and radiator removed and put in the wings. How about runing them with 50psi boost? And 3750 RPM. Rolls said GOOD LUCK! Mileage was never an option.

To bad I pissed you off, I could use a couple of gauges that aren't off the shelf.
Like an intake manifold temp with high speed sender. A dual needle pod with the pressure on the other side. All in a 2.25 gauge, or 3.125 would be even nicer.

Yikes lets stop with all this debating....I feel like im back in class with RG's posts >< ......Lets keep it to updates from now shall we =)

I hear you.. but I personaly look foward to reading his post.... a little spice from RG & RP to keep it right...:beer05:

I'm not as far off from understanding you as you think I am RG.

I wasn't trying to claim some sort of super-effiency in a turbo or anything. I was just saying that I believe, in highway cruising, that they have a slight MPG advantage over any type of crank driven SC.

I am fully aware that anything that pressurizes a system requires energy, and some of that energy will be lost, and where the pressure increase in the system occurs isn't relevant. It appears to me that anything that increases the pressure in the system (before or after the throttle plate) while the power is not needed is bad for MPG. For best efficency, you only want to start boosting once the throttle is at 100%. This obvioulsy doesn't work for throttle response though.

"If you have boost at the same rpm, you have more air which is more fuel and less economy."

And more fuel and more air means more HP, which means the car accelerates. The driver then backs off the throttle until the right amount of HP is achived to maintain speed. The more closed throttle position means pumping losses have increased though, since there is a higher pressure drop across the throttle plate. This is why any unwanted boost is always bad for economy.

One thing to keep in mind is that a bypass valve actually causes a supercharger system to "lag". On my friend's old Bonneville SSEi, when you stepped on the gas, you could tell there was a slight lag until the bypass valve closed. It was a lot like turbo lag.

Hmmm, sounds like there may have been something wrong with that old "Bonny." The MP62 'charger kits (and the 1.2L Whipple kits, as well) for Miatas all use bypass valves, and they make boost instantly and linearly. In those, the bypass' opening is constantly changing depending on the load/vacuum of the engine. So, for example, at 1/2 throttle, the bypass might be 1/2 open and at 3/4 throttle, with a decent load on the engine, it might be fully closed.

The end result is that they make boost nearly instantaneously, as long as the revs are high enough (say, above 2000 RPM, in the Miata's case).

To bad I pissed you off, I could use a couple of gauges that aren't off the shelf.
Like an intake manifold temp with high speed sender. A dual needle pod with the pressure on the other side. All in a 2.25 gauge, or 3.125 would be even nicer.

Sorry- the only things we make have glass screens and update 64 times a second with whatever we want to put on them ;)

But they do fit in a 3 1/8 hole. Or a 7" widescreen if you sit really far from the panel...

There's a reason that more homebuilts are registered per year in the US than mass manufactured planes. The homebuilts are much better in almost every way, including the price being hundreds of thousands less.

You didn't totally piss me off, but darting right in and telling me to stick something in my butt and then telling me that I'm lying about fuel effiency in an airplane isn't the best way to make friends.

I'll be at Reno this year. Maybe we can kiss and make up.

Good point dsm. I didn't take into account the physical properties as a vapor. It still isn't enough to power an engine though.

Hmmm, sounds like there may have been something wrong with that old "Bonny." The MP62 'charger kits (and the 1.2L Whipple kits, as well) for Miatas all use bypass valves, and they make boost instantly and linearly. In those, the bypass' opening is constantly changing depending on the load/vacuum of the engine. So, for example, at 1/2 throttle, the bypass might be 1/2 open and at 3/4 throttle, with a decent load on the engine, it might be fully closed.

The end result is that they make boost nearly instantaneously, as long as the revs are high enough (say, above 2000 RPM, in the Miata's case).
It was a little bit of an exaggeration to compare it to turbo lag but it is there. There is a split second where you can tell it takes the valve to close. It isn't much time but it is there nevertheless. It wasn't bad or even annoying. You could just tell that a bypass was present. When it closed you had full boost. Keep in mind I'm talking about a fraction of a second. Nothing to complain about.

And more fuel and more air means more HP, which means the car accelerates. The driver then backs off the throttle until the right amount of HP is achived to maintain speed.

Your engine rpm is tied to your speed. You can't just back of to a lower rpm and have the car still hold the same speed. Please don't get into automatic transmissions. Even they have their limits. If I need 3500 rpm to hold 70 mph, I'll need that regardless of how much pressure is in the intake. If I have 2 cars witht he same engine, one of them making 2 psi of boost and the other none, the one making boost will get worse mileage. Even if you had the exact same amount of fuel going into both engines, the one making boost is running leaner. You can only go so lean and still have the car run. If the car is shooting for stoich at cruise, that is more fuel for the boosted car. Even though it only takes a certain amount of power to hold a certain speed does not mean that you can't do it with more power. It's just a waste. There are many ways that you can waste the added power. One of them being in the form of heat.

RG, how does an engine decide to turn fuel into heat instead of into torque?

If the mixture is the same, more air means more fuel, and that means more power. The car *WILL* go faster. There's no valve or switch on the engine that says "turn this into heat instead of thrust." What happens is that your foot backs off the gas a little more to limit the air into the engine and thus back off the power to where you want it.

As I know very well from airplanes, manifold pressure means HP if you leave the mixture and RPM alone, which is what the RX8 does on the highway, shooting for stoich and cruising at a certian speed. So all we can adjust in the system is manifold pressure. Doesn't matter how the MP gets there- boost to 4289 PSI before the throttle plate for all I care- as long as the throttle plate offers enough restriction to keep the MP at 20", I'll produce the same HP at 20" of MP no matter how I get there. If I put the SC after the throttle plate- fine, the SC increases the pressure by 4" so I have to run 16" after the throttle plate to get 20" in the manifold. I do this by running less throttle position than I would if the SC wasn't there. This more closed throttle position equals higher pumping losses though, even if the MP is the same, since the SC is doing work to correct the higher restriction of the throttle plate.

The throttle does not equal RPM as your post seems to state. The throttle equals power. Your car cruises at a certian speed when power is equal to drag. If you up the manifold pressure, the power increases, and so does the car's speed. You must keep power the same to keep the speed the same (in the same gear, of course).

If your car can only hold any speed at any one rpm, how are you going to speed up if the engine doesn't or vice versa?

How are you not going to speed up if the engine produces more power due to the higher manifold pressure?

Produce more power means the drag is overcome, the car accelerates, the RPM goes up until the new speed's drag is equal to the new power level.

since no one mentioned the real key to water injection, it can increase the efficiency of an axial flow compressor from 85% to 115% (well if you flirt with wet compression)... its done in the power industry all the time.

The gas turbines can gain upwards of 15% power increase with not a whole lot of water being sprayed through the compressor (well, relative to the airflow anyway)

How are you not going to speed up if the engine produces more power due to the higher manifold pressure?

Produce more power means the drag is overcome, the car accelerates, the RPM goes up until the new speed's drag is equal to the new power level.
So what you are saying is that if we have 2 identical engines except one is making boost, at the same freeway speed, the one making boost (we'll say even 2 psi) must speed up and is incapable of holding the same speed because it is making more power? That IS what you are saying. That's wrong. Just because you only need to make so much power to go so fast does not mean that you can't make more power yet hold the same speed. Where are you measuring power? A supercharger boosting is a parasitic drag which means the engine must make more power to overcome it. You've got to at least make back the amount of power that it takes to create the boost. This uses more fuel and creates more heat. Don't think in terms of power to the ground. Think in terms of how much work the engine is actually doing.

As a crude example you might need 40 hp at the wheels and lose 10 to the drivetrain to hold a certain speed. If engine A is making 50 hp at the crank unsupercharged, it only uses the amount of fuel necessary for 50 hp. Again very crude example. Engine B also needs 40 hp at the wheels and also loses 10 hp to the drivetrain. However it's boosting supercharger may need 5 hp to spin since it is making boost. Engine B needs to make 55 hp to get 40 to the ground so it will consume fuel at a higher rate. Free spin the supercharger and it may only require a third of a horsepower to turn the blower. Fuel consumption goes back down. This is also ignoring any change in efficiency due to air temps. Now tell me how car B will speed up because it is making more power and tell me why car B won't be making more heat.

*update*
i talked to scott today and he ran me through some basic stuff.

apparantly, the interceptor doesn't stage until manifold pressure reaches 1psi. unfortunately, it's running out of primary injector before the blower makes that amount of boost.

i talked richard into letting me steal the car for a few days next week. 2 thing i'd like to try are:

1) piggy-back p's and s1's. 4 primaries, 2 secondaries. that should take care of the problem, but i have to ask scott if it'll kill the injector drivers just to make sure.
or
2) just tell the computer it's running an rx7 and stage it at 5".

either way, wasn't enough time to fix the problem today, but i think we have it figured out.

You don't want to look at it from my side do ya? What if I added up how much I've got in this by now! How many people have to work on it so I can drive it?
Good thing I still have my Eldo to drive.

Now Guitar junkie wants to swap injectors around. Why do I have to do that?
I'm looking for input on this project, remember I'm to old to know anything but carbs and distributors. I've got Australia giving me input also.

It's not like I'm just playing around here, it's all costing money that has to be retrieved from the price of the SC kit.

Now Guitar junkie wants to swap injectors around. Why do I have to do that?


because the interceptor can't stage at that rpm unless it's in rx7 mode.

Staging is pulling up to the line at the dragstrip. :Wconfused

OMG, you are older than dirt. lol

I was a juinor engineer on the team that invented cast iron.

Just think vacuum secondaries on a carb and you'll get the idea of what injector staging is.

Webers don't have those. But if I were running a Holley I have a box with a bunch of different colored springs so I can bring it in where I want.
I can see it and feel it. Then I can change the power valve to bring the fuel in when I want. If I modify it I can even chage the air corrector orfice.
If I really need to tune something out I can change the emulsion tune by shanging the fueling blocks.
Better yet I have some replacment fuel blocks that let you switch to Weber jetting. Then you can tune the shit out of it.

Do I have to tell you how great a distributor is? Or do you like this screwing around with all these burned up coils. With no sure fix in sight.


I can also make wooden spoke wheels for your covered wagon.
And buggy whips.

would that spoke-wheeled wagon have an a/f on it?

didnt this used to be a Supercharger thread? :D:

Started this thread back in May 05. Got away from it for a year and I just took the whole week catching up I must say this is coming along good and the whole thread is a very good read.

Keep up the good work all.

Staging is pulling up to the line at the dragstrip. :Wconfused

I think by staging they mean activating the injectors in sequence.

Or were you being sarcastic? :smoker:

I think by staging they mean activating the injectors in sequence.

Or were you being sarcastic? :smoker:


naw, he's just old. cut him some slack.

He invented sarcasm.

i had to change his o2 sensor because i'm young and agile, but i'm gonna make him machine my rotors because he's old and skillful. 8.5 compression, here we come!!!!

now find me a 4-port motor so i don't have to spin those 9# slugs up past 8k.

I hope you're not trying to maching Renesis rotors. It won't work.

nope. i'm gonna be using heavy rotors :)

Pumping losss.......that's something we haven't talked about at all. I'll not go into a RG style lecture here but we should consider it. There was a professor and I can't remember what campus but it might have been in So Cal, like USC or so.

I read about his work and called him because of homginazation but his work really didn't parallel mine in that way. With His it was a byproduct. He had built a throttleless engine controlled by inlet temprature. His gains were from less pumping loss. His work proved the point that it does work.


Actually this professor had a good idea and I believe his technical issues could have been solved.
However, car manufacturers solved the pumping loss issue mainly with increased exhaust gas recirculation possibly in conjunction with stratified fuel injection. (Exhaust gas recirculation can also be increased with more valve overlap, this is probably one of the reasons why some modern engines can forgo traditional exhaust gas recirculation). Also, more gears on a gearbox or CVTs allow the engine to run at a lower rpm on a highway and simply reduce pumping losses this way. Furthermore, cylinder deactivation is even another way to reduce pumping losses.
Last and not least hybrid cars can by simply deactivating the engine at low power settings not only reduce pumping losses but cut off engine friction as well.

Turbos can get higher overall efficency because they recover the energy from the exhaust stream. But something that steals power from the crank won't have this luxury.

Actually Turbos do steal power from the crank. By increasing the pressure in the exhaust system, the pressure on the piston is increased when it pushes the exhaust gas out. This increased pressure on the piston 'brakes' the crank and therefore steals power from the crank as well.
But your statement is correct that a Turbo at highway cruising is probably better fuel efficiency wise than most superchargers, since at that point it shouldn't really increase backpressure since it doesn't have to produce any pressure.

But one should not forget that any supercharger can also REDUCE pumping losses. One can take a smaller engine and run it at 'full' throttle (but no boost) at highway cruising. A bigger naturally aspirated engine with equal total power however would produce pumping losses because of a lower throttle setting and its larger 'vacuum' pump.

since no one mentioned the real key to water injection, it can increase the efficiency of an axial flow compressor from 85% to 115% (well if you flirt with wet compression)... its done in the power industry all the time.
I wouldn't say this is the key of water injection but yes since isothermal compression is more efficient than adiabatic compression an engine can be more efficient this way.
My question would be if one can squirt water on Richards blender or whether one has to inject water after the compressor and forgo some of the possible advantages of pre compressor water injection.

because the interceptor can't stage at that rpm unless it's in rx7 mode.

The interceptor has multiple functions for both a rapid increase in manifold vacuum pressure as well as being able to "stage" the injectors for a WOT situation. You need to change the time, amt, trig and stop cells on the Pump1 screen at the Pump2 level which will provide additional pulses of fuel depending on the amount that is specified in the amt field. This will allow you to keep a more consistent afr once the throttle is pressed aggresively.

Also, the interceptor has the capability of controlling the "staging" of the secondary injectors so that additional fuel can be supplied while in a WOT situation.

These values can be found on the options screen under REVstg, MAPstg and %Stage. Once a certain rpm has been reached this will alert the Interceptor to arm the injectors for additional fuel to be supplied to the engine. Only when the injectors are armed and the amount in MAPStg represented as a value of hg will it supply fuel from the cell identified by %Stage.

I actually had to heavily modify these values on my application (N/A) and it worked out great. The spike of 17.5 afr is down to 15 when I accelerate aggresively and my afr's at wot are just under 13 with the secondary injectors pumping in the appropriate amount of fuel. Just need to take a bit more fuel out on the RPMwot map or decrease the appropriate hg values on the LOAD screen... Almost there!

Hi Richard,

I've posted here before, so I guess I'm not a stranger to this thread. I'm here "representing" (If such thing could be said) the Spaniard's Rx8 club. We do not have a full-grown aftermarket for rotaries as you have, and we seem to have a pathological aversion to turbos (Even Greddys!!) for the Renesis.

You've stirred things up a bit concernign boosting up Renesis performance, and have probably "boosted" up our expectations concerning maximizing horsepower.

I'm aware you've turned down the Int-X and are looking up some other EMS.

What I'm asking is: Are you looking up to marketing your blower overseas or you're just observing th US market?

If your answer is: I wanna sell it everywhere!, could you specify a timeframe for overseas demand?

Thing is, we are really looking forward to a blower that can increase performance, without being a turbo. We seem to be afraid of heat as much as our weather anchors are :).

Maybe you never noticed, but guys as JIRD20 and Juanjux have been 'round askin' the same thing...we are so committed :)

Thanks a lot and excuse the meanigless lecture!

Miguel

Actually Turbos do steal power from the crank. By increasing the pressure in the exhaust system, the pressure on the piston is increased when it pushes the exhaust gas out. This increased pressure on the piston 'brakes' the crank and therefore steals power from the crank as well.

I would think, this would be correct in theory. I may be wrong, but I don't think this is correct in the real world. On a road car, you create back pressure on the exhaust to quiet the exhaust. In this case, the turbo acts as a muffler. Acting alone or with other mufflers to achieve the desired sound level that is being emitted from the car. The power it steals from the engine is put to a use. On a supercharger, you don't get this side benefit.

On a road car, you create back pressure on the exhaust to quiet the exhaust.
You don't have to. Muffling doesn't have to rob power or create backpressure. It's all design dependent.

Here's my take on using the Interceptor on this project. Keep the damn thing and learn how to tune it. Don't try for a couple of days and give up. I assure you it will do everything you need it to. If this ecu is too difficult to learn, what makes anyone think that any other alternative ecu will be easier? A reflash would be optimal but someone still has to tune it. Don't sell it. Learn to use it. I'm still learning it myself (and have standalone ecu experience) and expect I'll be finding new features on it for a long time to come.

i'll get the tuning figured out next week if richard's still down for it. i know a few things i haven't said yet.

I'm going to let Guitar Junkie take the car next week and do what he wants with it. That doesn't mean I'm happy or that I will keep it. It's only here until I get what I want. And what I want is something half the price at most and something that keeps more of the stock features, has more modern programing. That is available I assure you. There are at least two that I have my eye on now and will get both of them soon. I'll give you an honest evaluation when I'm done.

I only play stupid Fred, Ive built complete EFI units and you have to call that stand alone. I mean built the entire thing not just added an electronic componant.
I've built throttle bodys, fuel rails, intake manifolds and everything else but the nozzles and pumps.

It's only a joke when I play like I can't work with a controller. It's only a joke when I threaten to go back to carbs and distributors. :yelrotflm :lol:
I'm just a funny guy, I can't help it.

Your forgetting one thing, even if I get it running well It's not like my customers can do it. I have to have something reliable and repeatable.
How come Scott couldn't make it work? That's what I'm talking about.
I could send him out with every kit and when thier car still can't be driven I'll refer them to you RG. Who pays for my lost sales? This paragraph was not a joke.

I'm not alone, I'll not tell tales or name names, but some other manufactures have the same opinion. I wouldn't even tell you in PM, so don't ask.

And it hasn't been a couple of days it's been a couple of weeks screwing around. That's money not made making product.

I'm going to let Guitar Junkie take the car next week and do what he wants with it.

bb gt66 feeding into the blower?
what, what? :dunno:

bb gt66 feeding into the blower?
what, what? :dunno:


:Kill1:

How come Scott couldn't make it work? That's what I'm talking about.


First of all I wasn't trying to be mean and I've always been fully aware that you were going to pursue a different direction for the final kit anyways. I too can be sarcastic. However the Interceptor can absolutely do everything that you need it to in the mean time so giving up on it in favor of something else for the time being seems like taking a step sideways rather than a step forward. If you know there will be a better alternative in the near future, why buy the Interceptor in the first place? Why not just wait the extra couple of weeks? It's been 2 years in the making. What's another couple of weeks? I am fully aware that you are capable of doing many things. I never said or implied that you were dumb. You are extremely smart and have a lot of good experience and knowledge. I do admit that the Interceptor software isn't terribly user friendly compared to many other alternatives but that just means it's something different to learn. I'm not personally a fan of it's software but I like what it can do which means I'll have to learn to deal with it.

Now to answer the above quote. If I recall correctly you didn't have the kit working properly due to issues such as improper pully alignment and belt slippage etc and by the time it was resolved, Scott was out of time and about to leave. I can find no fault at all with Scott or his abilities and guarantee that he could absolutely make it work assuming of course that the blower setup itself works. If it works, it can be tuned.

Now to answer the above quote. If I recall correctly you didn't have the kit working properly due to issues such as improper pully alignment and belt slippage etc and by the time it was resolved, Scott was out of time and about to leave. I can find no fault at all with Scott or his abilities and guarantee that he could absolutely make it work assuming of course that the blower setup itself works. If it works, it can be tuned.

I'll speak out of turn here and say this...

I don't think that's what Richard meant Fred. He meant why the hell does a "standalone" (piggybacking the stock ecu) require to be tuned for each individual car even if they are running identical setups? Even for N/A applications... Scott's "base maps" do work... just not perfectly and could use or even need to be fine tuned. Why? Mazda doesn't make a ecu flash for each car. One works on all RX-8's. Unless I've misunderstood something the Interceptor-X is supposed to be in total control of the engine and thus is should work like the stock ecu... one "tune" should work on all identical setups. But it doesn't. Why? Now add in the cost (which would push the price of the costs up too high), the Interceptor-X offering more features than Richard needs for his "final product"...

It's even more clear to me now. Richard wants to build a product like Saleen or Kenne Bell. Something that is plug and play, reasonably priced and works as good as OEM.


At least this is what I gather from his posts.

Richard wants to build a product like Saleen or Kenne Bell. Something that is plug and play, reasonably priced and works as good as OEM.
.
:rock: :rock:

RP does not want himself/or is equipment to be blamed for any sort of engine failure.

You can always get more power but at what cost…....engine reliability.


RP keep up the good work.
When the project is done and based on RP’s past blowers the Blowers will out last the engine.

Japan, that makes sense.

We have to remember that the Closed loop feedback routines in the stock ECU allow quite a variation in sensors and therefore different engines............. to be adjusted to the set A/F values that Mazda wants. If the Interceptor had closed loop feedback that adjusted the maps from Scotts base map I'm sure they would work between cars as well as the Mazda flash.

Also remember that the hardware and the software in the stock ECU is much more powerfull than the Microtech harware........

I'm going to answer this and that will be all I'm going to say. I don't want a pissing contest between RG and myself. That was not my intention.
BUT I'll rebut your opinion of what was wrong with the car. Just about nothing. There was a problem with the belt but was fixed. It sometimes snaped around off one groove but it still was functioing I watched it myself on the dyno.
I wanted to change to the smaller pulley but Scott didn't have time. I waited around until 9:00 or 9:30 befor we got my car on the dyno.

He only made 5 pulls and made no real gains anywhere. (BTW I paid $200 for that minimal time on the dyno, which is way more then I have ever paid anywhere.)
I never ment to bitch about this but apparently some people are misinformed.
When done my car was undrivable with two dips in the power curve which when I changed to pulley became full shut off points.

No one has been able to fix that so far. The car is undrivable this way. There have been people in and out of the car since from all sorts of backgrounds and no one has come close to solving the problem. I'm not even going into the loss of power at other driving setting. Those I'm sure can be worked out.

I don't know if it does or doesn't but it should have a closed loop where you can just tell it to work out a given A/F and that would solve all the questions. The other units have that feature. In fact if it doesn't then it can't work properly without a high speed intake manifold temp sensor. It just cannot. I mentioned this going in and was told it didn't need the temp sensor. So either someone doesn't know what he is talking about or doesn't know his unit.

Now just to back myself up I found a supercharger kit sold in Austraila that tried the Microtec and stated that it was "unsuitable for this car"
I never wanted to bad mouth the unit or Scott but I've been pushed into it by people making unfair comments to me or others. The evedence is on my side, it's still in the car.

One more thing when I had the real big pulley on the car and 3.5 psi I put 101 fuel in it just so I could drive it. I put it on the dyno here and it made just under 200 SAE. After the pulley was changed to a 5psi one and scott tuned the Inter x it made 219 STD corrected. Guess what that is no gain for 1.5psi increase. And don't give me any shit about the higher octane. I'm the wrong guy, higher octane has less power in it.

That's right all of you who dynoed at GT got standard correction not SAE.

You should read all of this knowing it is only my opinion. I have opinions on everything.

No one has been able to fix that so far. The car is undrivable this way. There have been people in and out of the car since from all sorts of backgrounds and no one has come close to solving the problem.



i alredy told you i'll make it work. because i'm young and agile.

My girlfriend would argue that I am even more opinionated.

I like this thread, I am learning a lot!

I have done standalone EFI on a few piston motors. This rotary thing is new to me, but by looking at it, it sure resembles a piston port two stroke without the primary compression. Still, I will wait till the people that know what they are doing before I go blowing up my own motor.

Too bad there is not enough room under there to put on some decent megaphone pipes.

I think a blower on this motor will be much better than a turbocharger. Norton when they were tuning rotaries went to megaphones without the reversion closing cone to get the most power, which to me means turbo bad, open pipes with supercharger good. You would have seen more rotaries in racing motorcycles if the FIM had not called them two strokes and gave them a 2.0 displacement factor instead of the 1.5 that Norton wanted.

Toyota experimented with two strokes in the 80's. They wanted an open crankcase with plain bearings and no oil in the intake so they ended up supercharging their motor because of the absence of primary compression. One more reason Supercharger good, turbocharger not so good.

No "Primary" compression??? Please explain? The renesis has a full 10:1 compression cycle between induction and ignition.

But yes - I like the S/C path for the RX-8 :) :rock: :ylsuper:

:beer05:

Cheers,
Hymee.

I don't know if it does or doesn't but it should have a closed loop where you can just tell it to work out a given A/F and that would solve all the questions. The other units have that feature. In fact if it doesn't then it can't work properly without a high speed intake manifold temp sensor. It just cannot. I mentioned this going in and was told it didn't need the temp sensor. So either someone doesn't know what he is talking about or doesn't know his unit.


That has always been my one real problem with the interceptor - no closed loop feedback. There are 2 major drawbacks because of this, one of which we already see..

a) one map will not work for all cars like a factory map since the ecu can not compensate for how various tolerences stack up in each car

b) the other drawback is overtime, the interceptor will absolutely need to be retuned to stay at peak performance as various parts of the car get wear and need to be accounted for... think air filters, spark plugs, 2 sensors, seals, and everything else that effects combustion. You can see a stock cars long term fuel trim generally trend up over time between service.

there is a reason why fuel strategies in the oem ecu have long term and short term fuel trims as well as linking for non-closed loop areas in the map to closed loop areas of the map.....

By Primary Compression, I am referring to when the piston comes down in the crankcase, compressing the air fuel charge in the crankcase and then blowing it through the transfer ports to above the piston. Then the Piston rises sealing off the transfer ports and compressing the air fuel mixture and creating a vacuum in the crankcase which then sucks air and fuel in through the intake.

Exhaust port(s) open first and close after the transfers, so by using expansion chambers the opening cone provides scavenging and the closing cone provides reversion of the charge to push unburned air fuel mixture back into the cylinder before the exhaust fully closes.

Antique two strokes use piston ports where the piston skirt is essentially the intake valve opening and closing the intake port, just like the rotr on a rotary motor.

as an interim motorcycle manufacturers opened the intake timing greatly and used the piston as the opening timing of the intake and a reedvalve to seal it off or provide the closing timing of the intake.

Then intake ports were opened to the point of 360 degree timing and after that the reeds were moved straight into the cases.

Piston port motors will make more peak horsepower but reed valve motors make more power everywhere else.

my point being is that since there is no overlap in the rotary motor, you would want only a megaphone exhaust to provide maximum scavenging and provide more vacuum in the combustion chamber so when the intake opens there will be more of a pressure differential to hopefully pull more air in through the intake and with air stacking with increased velocity of the incoming charge perhaps packing more air and fuel in.

with a supercharger though, the need for a megaphone exhaust would be fairly negated.

:my point being is that since there is no overlap in the rotary motor, you would want only a megaphone exhaust to provide maximum scavenging and provide more vacuum in the combustion chamber so when the intake opens there will be more of a pressure differential to hopefully pull more air in through the intake and with air stacking with increased velocity of the incoming charge perhaps packing more air and fuel in.



I think RotaryGod has a thought like that growing in his head right now. :Eyecrazy:

there is a reason why fuel strategies in the oem ecu have long term and short term fuel trims as well as linking for non-closed loop areas in the map to closed loop areas of the map.....

i added the bold- exactly right

I'm going to answer this and that will be all I'm going to say. I don't want a pissing contest between RG and myself. That was not my intention.

Who's in a pissing contest? I'm not. I told you that I fully support you and always have. I don't have any issues with you or your supercharger. You should know that. I've always defended you.

I also am fully secure in knowing that Scott and his unit both have the ability to tackle any tuning issues that can arise on a rotary. I have compete confidence in him and his abilities. I know you only had a belt issue. That took time and he was very busy with other cars while he was there. That was the whole point. I never implied that your car had massive problems elsewhere. Had Scott been given more time, he'd have gotten it tuned. Guaranteed. Sometimes it takes an hour to tune, sometimes it takes several. You spend as much time as is necessary to get it right.

You're not hearing me, I'll call on the phone as soon as I get the chance.

You do know that I just have fun picking on you don't you! ;)

i am So gonna get you two drunk, pull richards pink motor out of my trunk and video tape your responses :p:

i am..gonna... pull richards pink motor out of my trunk :eek:

i was planning on getting him drunk first, then posting his reaction up in this thread :D

So, without reading all 200+ pages, where are we at?

So, without reading all 200+ pages, where are we at?

We are at the two hundred and thirty second page. :)

Cheers,
Hymee.

We are at the two hundred and thirty second page. :)

Cheers,
Hymee.

accurate and sarcastic...

brilliant!!!!:mdrmed:

btw.

you got mail... let me know the date you get it...

beers :beer:

After a 10 month hiatus I decided to come back...

What's the scoop on the AFSC? Any luck? Or is it still ECU problems?

Hymee --
Thanks for the laugh good buddy!

After a 10 month hiatus I decided to come back...

What's the scoop on the AFSC? Any luck? Or is it still ECU problems?
Might wanna just read the thread. At least go back like 5-10 pages and start reading from there.

After a 10 month hiatus I decided to come back...

What's the scoop on the AFSC? Any luck? Or is it still ECU problems?
It's in the car and running. Trying to work the bugs out of it. No solid numbers yet.

Hey all, newbie here ^^; :wiggle:

I believe this thread started as a source of input so here's my 2 cents:
I LOVE the idea of an AXIAL flow supercharger. I've grown up hating massive superchargers and been in favor of turbos; my last car was a Mitsu 3000GT VR4 (V6 TT). But with my love for jets, and love for my 8, and the idea of putting an AFS/C in it, AND how compact/simple (relatively) it is, I'd put my name down to buy one tomorrow! :icon_droo
Having said that and...

Might wanna just read the thread. At least go back like 5-10 pages and start reading from there.

taken the advice of looking back 10 pages (not devoted enough to read 3472 indepth/complicated posts) I've questions.
Most importantly: 1). Any projected completion date? Possible release date?
2). Any hp gain numbers yet?
3). Will it be air cooled, water, or not?
4). What r the latest unit cost numbers?
Basically just the... basics. Hope it comes close to production soon! :fingersx:

It's in the car and running. Trying to work the bugs out of it. No solid numbers yet.

BAAAHAHAHA somehow missed this one.... still itd b nice to have some projected numbers =D

Hey all, newbie here ^^; :wiggle:

I believe this thread started as a source of input so here's my 2 cents:
I LOVE the idea of an AXIAL flow supercharger. I've grown up hating massive superchargers and been in favor of turbos; my last car was a Mitsu 3000GT VR4 (V6 TT). But with my love for jets, and love for my 8, and the idea of putting an AFS/C in it, AND how compact/simple (relatively) it is, I'd put my name down to buy one tomorrow! :icon_droo
Having said that and...



taken the advice of looking back 10 pages (not devoted enough to read 3472 indepth/complicated posts) I've questions.
Most importantly: 1). Any projected completion date? Possible release date?
2). Any hp gain numbers yet?
3). Will it be air cooled, water, or not?
4). What r the latest unit cost numbers?
Basically just the... basics. Hope it comes close to production soon! :fingersx:

yes this is hard to keep up with...

and this really is a genuine ?

i will give it a stab...

i know just what is in the thread and i have read it all.

release date. when it is done..
hp gain. no #s but rp is looking for drivable and fun not 1/4 times..

air cooled water cooled... no. the afs is efficeint... no intercoolers. that is like a page or two back.

cost.

rp wants to make it affordable...

this is just me paying attention to this thread, i could be wrong... i am not the spokesperson. and have not meet rp...


btw, rp... pm me if this is not accurate...

beers :beer:

release date. when it is done..
hp gain. no #s but rp is looking for drivable and fun not 1/4 times..

air cooled water cooled... no. the afs is efficeint... no intercoolers. that is like a page or two back.

cost.

rp wants to make it affordable...

date: damn lol
hp gain: whole heartedly agree; if that's what i cared about i'd have bought a different car. definitely the tracker type here not stripper :p:
intercooler: shweet
cost: good idea lol the "3500 to 3700" mentioned in the first post is about the most id pay tho. any more and it'd b 1/4 of what i paid buying the car
Thanks!~ a :beer: 4 u

thanks for the update.

RP, does it not matter what angle you have the MAF positioned at? My guess is it does not, but why did Mazda place it on top of the intake. I noticed yours is 90 degrees to this.

I know on some cars it will change the AFR a litle bit.. Maybe up to a half point up or down depending on how it is... I think if it is upside down it will read a little rich.... Or something like that.

With a mass air flow sensor it makes no difference. With an air flow meter it does. An air flow meter uses a spring loaded flapper door. Based on it's position, gravity will affect how easily it opens. A maf is just a hot wire that doesn't move so it's position doesn't matter.

I have a little exercise for you. Put a turbo in an oven. Does it spin? Now blow cold air through it. Does it spin?

There is a lot of heat in the exhaust system however it isn't the heat that is doing the work on a turbo. It's the flow. Heat plays an important part though in that it affects turbo exhaust wheel/housing sizing. This is because hotter air takes up more space than colder, denser air. The hotter the air is, the larger the turbo's hotside needs to be to flow it efficiently. This is why the rear mounted turbos need smaller exhaust wheels. The exhaust gasses are cooler and take up less space. Even though the turbo is sized differently, based on the temperature and energy present in the exhaust gasses, they are the same restriction to the system from a functional standpoint.

Yes it is true that the turbo helps remove some heat from the exhaust system. It gets absorbed by it and transferred into the oiling system, housings, and in some turbos back into the cars cooling system as not all turbos have coolant lines on them. It also radiates this heat back into the engine bay. None of it gets used to make power. Only the flow does that.

Your dad's plane sounds pretty cool. There are many rotary powered RV8's flying around and yes I agree that they do get the mileage you say they do. For a small plane, they are pretty damn fast. Light and powerful is a good combo. That plane will make the average Cessna look like a truck in the performance department.

Of course it doesn't spin due to just heat. There's no heat differential, so there is no potential energy in the system.

The inlet of the exhaust side of a turbo is smaller than the outlet. Just like the turbo adds heat when it compresses, it cools off the

It doesn't spin due to heat at all. It's only airflow.

date: damn lol
hp gain: whole heartedly agree; if that's what I cared about i'd have bought a different car. definitely the tracker type here not stripper :p:
intercooler: shweet
cost: good idea lol the "3500 to 3700" mentioned in the first post is about the most id pay tho. any more and it'd b 1/4 of what i paid buying the car
Thanks!~ a :beer: 4 u

Hi though I am new to the forums as a member, but I have had my 8 for over a year, and followed this tread for just as long, so I believe I can say this:
If you had paid attention, on this thread or anywhere else, people normally don't discuss price tags openly. Why? Possibly there is a reason for that. I don't know, but whatever it is, please take this sort of questions to Richard directly. I am sure he'll be more than happy to provide you with the price quote and elaborate on the details of it. He did so with me and it didn't even take more than a couple of hours to get a reply from him via email.

This thread is about the Axial Flow SC and related sometimes even quite far from cars, but still related technical topics. :ylsuper: It is not an online parts shop, so let's keep it that way.

Sorry to be this way, but I had to go through all the posts to get here, not just the last 10 pages. and to be honest, I learned more from this about Physics and aerodynamics and all kinds of other stuff than I did when I was in college (well maybe not, but it is all coming back now :) ). So take a few hours (Or a few days) an read some more. In my opinion this car deserves an owner who can truly understand its soul and nothing less. This forum and especially threads like this one and the one that Hymee runs are exactly what we need to get the understanding of the magnificent machines we own.

P.S and I am not bullshitting... :)

cheers

Hi though I am new to the forums as a member, but I have had my 8 for over a year, and followed this tread for just as long, so I believe I can say this:
If you had paid attention, on this thread or anywhere else, people normally don't discuss price tags openly. Why? Possibly there is a reason for that. I don't know, but whatever it is, please take this sort of questions to Richard directly. I am sure he'll be more than happy to provide you with the price quote and elaborate on the details of it. He did so with me and it didn't even take more than a couple of hours to get a reply from him via email.

cheers
Prices aren't posted because unless you're a forum vendor, or you're posting in one of our for sale sections, you're not allowed to advertise. Posting a subject about a product in development is fine, but once you post a price tag, it becomes an advertisement. That's why.

Prices aren't posted because unless you're a forum vendor, or you're posting in one of our for sale sections, you're not allowed to advertise. Posting a subject about a product in development is fine, but once you post a price tag, it becomes an advertisement. That's why.

Thank u. makes sense & good to kno 4 fut. ref. i just figured it 2 b part of the discussion and input needed for a product in development. yes i would b interested in buying 1 but im not fishing 4 prices, or "tag," that badly; more concerned with helping out with input as a potential buyer w/ real world scenarios like i said with my comment of not willing 2 buy at the 1/4 of the price of the car.

PS. 2 the preceding post: no BS here either. and as 4 the physics and understanding of the car, im an aerospace engineering major. hence: "my love for jets, and love for my 8." didnt buy this car on a whim as u seem to think

I vote RP gets hooked up with Cobb Tuning as it seems like they are getting their $700 AccessPort reflashing hardware to work on our cars :Eyecrazy:

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1394814&postcount=266

It doesn't spin due to heat at all. It's only airflow.
However, airflow is a form of heat. Heat is a process, associated with the transfer of energy.
Heat: A form of energy associated with the motion of atoms or molecules and capable of being transmitted through solid and fluid media by conduction, through fluid media by convection, and through empty space by radiation.
and convection is a form of airflow.

I vote RP gets hooked up with Cobb Tuning as it seems like they are getting their $700 AccessPort reflashing hardware to work on our cars :Eyecrazy:

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1394814&postcount=266

I was taking a look at their website yesterday, would be nice if someone like them had a solution for us.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/

However, airflow is a form of heat. Heat is a process, associated with the transfer of energy.
If you want to get absolutely beady eyes, cokebottle glasses, nerdy, underwear up your ass tightwad technical (I mean that in a nice way! :) Why do people always try to get down to the quantum level to win frugal arguments from a functionality standpoint?) then technically you can have no movement without heat as we know absolute zero is impossible to hit because atoms are always moving. However for the mere limited example we are using with a turbo, it's the airflow that does the work. The point is that the exhaust doesn't have to be "hot" to make a turbo work which is why saying the engine's heat spins the turbo is a worthless argument. It can be 20 degree air and the turbo would still spool. Don't get technical and claim that 20 degree air is actually hotter air than absolute zero which means it contains heat. That's understood. Frame of reference here. The airflow from the exhaust is what does the work. You could get the exact same amount of power out of an engine with a turbo regardless of what the exhaust temps are at the turbo. It doesn't matter if they are at 16 degrees or 1600 degrees. A turbo is not a free device utilizing only waste as many people claim. It is a restriction on the engine which creates many other problems. A peltier device wrapped around the hot exhaust pipes would be a form of using heat to recover wasted energy. I suppose then someone would claim that we wouldn't have any appreciable heat in the pipe to recover if there wasn't any hot exhaust flow through it. :)

I sent a PM telling him I would Drive to Utah to help out if there are no other takers

I was taking a look at their website yesterday, would be nice if someone like them had a solution for us.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/

^^
If I was closer, I would be willing to part with my car for a few days to get an actual flash product underway.

Richard Im in for one of these. Please make it happen!!

Time

sorry, he's waiting on me. my gf's kid fell off a quad earlier this week and fractured his skull. i've been at the hospital a lot lately.

I sent a PM telling him I would Drive to Utah to help out if there are no other takers

thank god... i'd do it myself if it wasn't a 2 day trip 1 way :cool:

sorry, he's waiting on me. my gf's kid fell off a quad earlier this week and fractured his skull. i've been at the hospital a lot lately.

Wow man, no need to be sorry.

Best wishes to your gf's son.

I was taking a look at their website yesterday, would be nice if someone like them had a solution for us.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/

They are pretty raved about on the Legacy GT and Imprezza boards, and from the looks of the info on their site... this is definitely what we've all been waiting for. i really hope that this solution is able to make it to market...

Ok, I'll toss my two cents into the heat vs. movement debate. The turbo definitely cannot spool without movement, I don't see how it could otherwise. BUT, heat and movement are not independent of course. The hotter the exhaust is, the greater the volume of exhaust produced, and since the volume of exhaust pipe is fixed, this means that exhaust velocity is greater, which means the turbo spools more.

Of course, RG must know all this, but I wanted to take advantage of the opportunity :)

why is everbody talking about turbos this is an AFSC thread :Freak_ani :mdrmed:

Wow 247.000 readers and still no Super Charger.

But we are almost there. Just a little more patient..

You know what Razz1, I'm going to take your deposit here in just a couple of weeks. :mdrmed:

And Razz, you don't even have an AxialFlow shifter yet.

AF will put a new whole new meaning to the "super" of supercharger. Will bare 5-stage blowers be released too, I hope ?

A few of us made a trip to Richards place to get the short shifter installed/pick up and to look at his project. Unfortunatly I neglected to take pics of the supercharger :spank: The product is looking great though just needs an appropriate EMS to fit its nature.

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/9690/505oq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/414/5024uf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5088/5034xl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3194/5078dg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5378/5068qq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Well after seeing those pictures it tells me that chrome wheels are in my future.
All the other cars look blank.
How come no one took any pictures of the new shop or did they?

Looks like everyone has some kind of exhaust though.

Ah crap RP, I wasn't sure if you wanted us taking pictures of the inside of the shop. :banghead:
Chrome rims would look nice on your car though.

Thanks again Richard for letting us invade your shop for the morning. That was GREAT of you.

You know what Razz1, I'm going to take your deposit here in just a couple of weeks. :mdrmed:

And Razz, you don't even have an AxialFlow shifter yet.

Yep, still need to make it out to your place.

But, I got the Hot new suspension system so I can keep it at full throttle around the corners at the track with your SC!

:mdrmed:

alright guys, dramafest '06 is over and i'll be picking up the car tonight. if i can't sleep, i'll tune it up and slap it on the dyno tomorrow. otherwise, expect something by the end of the week.

Didn't I read that a couple weeks ago ;)

Do a bang up job (on the controller, not the fenders).

i think you missed what happened.

Looks like RP has been spending to much time mowing the grass instead of working on the AFSC. :mdrmed:

Looks like RP has been spending to much time mowing the grass instead of working on the AFSC. :mdrmed:
He made US mow the lawn for him in exchange for the Short Shifters... ;)

So would installing a sprinkler system be enough for a AFSC
:cwm27: How bout a pool.

RP, i'll be coming to california on july 14-16 for the pomona tattoo convention i was wondering how far is it from your shop and if you are open any of those days so i will be abel to stop by

Of course it doesn't spin due to just heat. There's no heat differential, so there is no potential energy in the system.

The inlet of the exhaust side of a turbo is smaller than the outlet. Just like the turbo adds heat when it compresses, it cools off the

There are very few engines equipped to actually measure this, but there are some, and I have datalogged with them.

Assuming all the instrumentation is accurate, Boost (intake) pressure will NEVER be higher (or even equal to) Exhaust back pressure on a turbocharged engine while under boost conditions.

It is this simple: You CANNOT get something for nothing.

Can you inflate your bicycle tire w/o expending any energy to move the pump handle up and down? No. Will you create HEAT in the pump as you compress the air? Yes.

We all agree (and know from common knowledge) that friction creates heat. No energy input = no friction = no heat. Efficiency is a function of the amount of energy WASTED as heat. If a turbo generates boost pressure and heat, it needs energy to do it, that energy comes from the crankshaft via the rods and pistons PUSHING the exhaust gas outward.

If you actually measure the exhaust pressure in the MANIFOLD (between the valves and turbo) and compare it to the pressure in the intake, you will prove to yourself that this is true.

You haven't called me yet Richard! Still waiting..........

Thought I was going to see you tomorrow, but I have to work.

Maybe I'll call you afterwards about the SC and short shifter.

Assuming all the instrumentation is accurate, Boost (intake) pressure will NEVER be higher (or even equal to) Exhaust back pressure on a turbocharged engine while under boost conditions.


Wow!
Just imagine if it was actually possible!!!
Who needs Axial Flow? Who needs rotors? Just use some electrical current to start it and it goes and goes faster, and faster and faster... be careful revving this one in neutral, it'll spin off until it self destruct.
The infinite power-r-r-r!!! :Kill1: We could rule the streets... Not streets, the racetracks... No-o-o the UNIVERSE :rock: Muah ha ha ha!!!

The infinite power-r-r-r!!! :Kill1: We could rule the streets... Not streets, the racetracks... No-o-o the UNIVERSE :rock: Muah ha ha ha!!!

Sorry there :) got carried away a bit. In reality I just want a little bit more horsepower for my 8, That's all... :eyetwitch

Am I missing pages to this forum....I cant believe its been almost three days since someone posted something.. :mdrmed:

We all agree (and know from common knowledge) that friction creates heat. No energy input = no friction = no heat. Efficiency is a function of the amount of energy WASTED as heat. If a turbo generates boost pressure and heat, it needs energy to do it, that energy comes from the crankshaft via the rods and pistons PUSHING the exhaust gas outward.

Well no rods or pistons or crankshaft here so free energy for everyone... :)

Im a little confused and was over reading 200 pages...is this a roots, twin screw, or just a new design of a supercharger?

Hi!

I guess this could help with this project?

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=93286&page=1&pp=15

Im a little confused and was over reading 200 pages...is this a roots, twin screw, or just a new design of a supercharger?


What is it that tells me you didn't read the first five pages much less the 200+. :mdrmed:
Do me a favor and read the first 5 and get back to us.
The alternative would be a lecture from RotaryGod.
And that might be longer then five pages. :Eyecrazy:

Im a little confused and was over reading 200 pages...is this a roots, twin screw, or just a new design of a supercharger?

You don't have to read any pages, the answer to your question is in the title of the thread. :hahano:

You don't have to read any pages, the answer to your question is in the title of the thread. :hahano:


Aha... Yep... Aha...
that sure would :bootyshak
LOL

Hi!

I guess this could help with this project?

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=93286&page=1&pp=15

I thought that same exact thing when I read that thread.

Between Richard's SC knowledge and MazdaManiac's tuning wizardry, together they could, dare we say, rule the world! :worship:

How far is it from Phoenix to Chatsworth, CA anyway? Where's the paypal account to contribute gas money?

SO, WTF happened with guitarjunkie's tuning efforts? Why haven't we seen any results yet? The hardware has been available for at least a month, no? Tuning this thing is not that hard - especially with the IntX. Take it from the guy who refused convert to it for the longest time - the damn thing works like a champ. The eManage Ultimate will no doubtedly also work. But, is there something else going on here? Plenty of people are running EMS now and tuning it on their own with little to no experience.

you sound mad.

I'm incredulous.

Really. The EMS issue has been solved. What is going on with this project? What is preventing the completion? What is the issue that is standing in the way? It's no longer the EMS.

Instead of dodging, why not answer the question?

The answer is that the car is in the body shop and that's all I'll say.

And no, the EMS is not solved. I'm taking offers on the Decepter X by PM.

re-goddam-diculous....

I suppose the EMS situation IS solved for turbos, but apparently not SC's. How can it work for probably close to 100 turbo'd 8s but not your supercharger?

Please, illuminate us. I find this constant dragging on to be frustrating - and I'm not even waiting for a AFSC! But if I were waiting for it, I'd take this coy gamesmanship regarding the facts to be infuriating - and possibly a sign that something is amiss. Left to my own, I'd have to conclude that there is no plausible reason that a SC would provide any more of an EMS challenge than a turbo. Therefore, I see no reason why we haven't seen this SC in action yet. If I'm wrong prove me so. I'm not afraid of being wrong in a public setting. Neither should you be.

Yes, I'm hounding you. Yes, I'm being an ass about it. But, I think I have a right to be. I've shared both my successes and failures with the forum. I expect anyone posting outside the 'vendor' area to do the same. Outside the 'vendor' section you are a member of the Community. The Community is here to share knowledge. That goes double when folks have been waiting patiently (remarkable patience) for your product.

Fender Bender ;) Sounds like a story :):

Fender Bender ;) Sounds like a story :):


i didn't do it. that's all i'm saying

Yes, I'm hounding you. Yes, I'm being an ass about it. But, I think I have a right to be. I've shared both my successes and failures with the forum. I expect anyone posting outside the 'vendor' area to do the same. Outside the 'vendor' section you are a member of the Community. The Community is here to share knowledge. That goes double when folks have been waiting patiently (remarkable patience) for your product.

:confused: :nopity: How do you have a right to criticize him when you have something already and have no intention on buying his product? Have you put any money into this? .. Why stir a shit pot?

He seems to have been very honest with everyone. The "solution" didn't work and he didn't feel comfortable releasing it with it and he's stated that he's looking for another solution. I find that more comforting than the blown seal threads we saw when greddy first came out.

He wants to get it right the first time, not run a trial and error situation on actual customers. I don't find anything wrong with that. I wish more vendors were this open and honest about things and rigorous about testing a product.

People have been waiting a while it's true, but really what's a little longer?

RP,

Just to provide a counter point to MadDog, I plan on buying your product (assuming it doesn't break the bank) and I am waiting patiently... and I feel I have nothing to bitch about. Continue the good work...

lets see his product, his money and his time trying to get it right for us the first time around. i can wait for the end product. plus i've seen it in person so i know what the problem is .

RP,

Just to provide a counter point to MadDog, I plan on buying your product (assuming it doesn't break the bank) and I am waiting patiently... and I feel I have nothing to bitch about. Continue the good work...
Ditto. Although I'm waiting for my warranty to expire in another 27k miles. By then it should be CARB legal.

I'm just frustrated. Sorry for being tyrannical about it. But Photic, I can't really can't understand how you can think there's a lot of "openess" and "honesty" going on here. So far, we have three people all saying "that's all I'll say", or "I know what's going on, but I'm not saying". Is that really open and honest?

I guess my BS detector is going off. I really fail to see why the EMS is such an issue. All I've seen is a lot of bitterness towards digital solutions in general, and more specifically, for one solution that works for litterally everyone else. Will someone PLEASE tell me why its the fault of the IntX that this system is not yet on the road?

Honestly, I had to do a little tweaking to get my IntX running right - due to my elevation (~6000ft). But, moving my injectors around and changing the staging is all that was required. After being one of the biggest skeptics, I'm a true believer in the IntX. That's a testament to its capabilities. If you can't tell, I'm relentless in questioning and investigating. Until someone can explain to me why the EMS is so much harder for this SC, I'm calling BS on all this 'openess' and 'honesty'.

re-goddam-diculous....

I suppose the EMS situation IS solved for turbos, but apparently not SC's. How can it work for probably close to 100 turbo'd 8s but not your supercharger?

Please, illuminate us. I find this constant dragging on to be frustrating - and I'm not even waiting for a AFSC! But if I were waiting for it, I'd take this coy gamesmanship regarding the facts to be infuriating - and possibly a sign that something is amiss. Left to my own, I'd have to conclude that there is no plausible reason that a SC would provide any more of an EMS challenge than a turbo. Therefore, I see no reason why we haven't seen this SC in action yet. If I'm wrong prove me so. I'm not afraid of being wrong in a public setting. Neither should you be.

Yes, I'm hounding you. Yes, I'm being an ass about it. But, I think I have a right to be. I've shared both my successes and failures with the forum. I expect anyone posting outside the 'vendor' area to do the same. Outside the 'vendor' section you are a member of the Community. The Community is here to share knowledge. That goes double when folks have been waiting patiently (remarkable patience) for your product.

the fact that pettit does not have one out yet is a hint..

beers :beer:

Maybe you're right. But WHY!? I'm asking an honest question!

It was mentioned before, MadDog, the IntX isn't a drop-in solution.

Whether that is the case or not, I don't know. However, RP put one in the car and tried to get it tuned and it didn't happen, so there you have it.

The only reason the Pettit kit isn't out is they want to sell it with a cheaper pnp flash system.

Pettit has been running the hardware on an emanage for testing and now the interceptor-x with no issues that I am aware of. For them, its a cost issue, as the Interceptor-X while good, isn't cheap.

Pettit wants to ship out a soup to nuts system that requires as little tuning as possible. Richard is aiming for the same thing, which as we've learned is a little harder than it sounds.

I agree with MadDog on this issue. It's been over 2 years since the first post......2 YEARS!!

I've been out of the loop for a while. How much progress has there been on the Plug & Play flash system? Is richard thinking of implementing it?

I am patient.

being as I live in the shadow of Boeing, and since most of my family works with Jets, this is the horsepower solution I want for my car.

if it takes another couple of years, I'll still wait.

RP, what is the chance of purchasing just the supercharger? this seems like a fun toy to try on my Alfa Spider as well.

I typed out a big long rebutt to this sillyness but then zapped it. Why? Because I owe you nothing. I'm the one with the million bucks and six years into this thing so I'll take all the fucking time I like. It's my money.
Ask any of the members who have been to the new shop if it's BS. Have you seen a million dollors in machinery on a BS pile?

I have been reluctant to bad mouth someone elses product but you push my hand. Windows 95 is a good system and if you knew no better you'd probably be happy if someone sold you an OS like that today for three times it's price. You'd be fat, dumb and happy. Why do I have burst your bubble, just 'cause I happen know it's a dozen years behind. Because you asked.

I can't sell that system to my customers and tell them it's the latest hot tip double throw down item available. It works, but so do roots blowers. I don't build radial air cooled engines. But if Pratt didn't, we'd all be speaking German. Pratt now builds axial flow compressed, turbine driven propless engines.

Back when I was driving open wheel race cars a Cosworth DFV was a world beating engine that won over 100 Grand Prix. A genius design of four valve four cam V8 of 3 liters making 495 HP at 8500. I'd love one sitting in my shop just to look at. But a Renault F1 engine of today is 2.4 liters, 800 hp and turns 18000 RPM. on top of that it weighs in at 210 lbs.

If I had a '70's era F1 car with a DFV in it I'd run it at vintage races and never stop smiling. Then again if I had a 2000's era F1 car I'd put a brick under the gas pedal before ever driving it. Well that might be a lie, but you get the point.

I have three EMS system to test that will blow your system away while allowing all the stock componants to remain intact. That means it can pass a CARB test, have closed loop, knock sensor and cruise control. You don't have to look at a CEL light every time you look at the dash. On top of that they are half the price.

I intend to deliver these plug and play. No dyno shop required. Don't start with that crap that every engine is different. With modern machinery and inspection equipment they've never more the same. If someone whom I belive tests a batch of these things and tells me they all made between 214 and 219 HP how much closer do you expect? Those were early engines, they are probably closer now.

How many parts are there in it to make them different? Electronics are all the same, no difference there. It's digital.

Sure a guy could play around and take all the safety settings out of the thing to get a couple of more HP. If I can, I'll find a way to lock out all but the very few tuners. Then again for every lock there is a pick. If they try hard enough they can blow up anything. You just can't save everyone.

Have I illuminated you MadDog? You're right about one thing, your an ass.

This is a true story: Once upon a time Buick built a car with an Eaton blower in it. When I heard they were going to come out with that I called one of the Engineers at GM to ask why he didn't test my unit. He gave me an honest answer, he didn't know about my unit until recently and is not going in to his boss to tell him he didn't do his job last year. So his boss was happy. Shouldn't have been, but he didn't know any better.

For what it is worth, based on cost and tuning, I would rather not have the Interceptor X as part of the solution. I want it to be a drop in solution, especially with that whole CARB thing.

Maddog is pretty wound up about something that has nothing to do with him.

Bravo Richard!

I've been to his shop, seen his machinery, seen the work he does and I have nothing but respect for what he's doing.
Richard is doing the right thing by making sure he comes out with a superior product the FIRST time.

Keep up the great work RP. Maybe next time I'm at your shop it wont' be so freakin' hot and we can go grab some lunch and beers.

Its almost the weekend, lets try to not get to bend outta shape before a holiday.

We've had alot of delayed projects due to how complex the car is. And the good news is that the vendors in question put quality and reliability at the top of their list. I can't fault Richard and Pettit for wanting to get it right the first time, and making the system pnp.

After jacking around with just the ECU, I have a insight into how difficult this process can be. Patience is a virtue, and I think people will be pleasantly surpised at Sevenstock 9 the variety of FI options available.

It will be done when it is done. Why is that such a problem? Let it be.

Richard Paul never made any promises or commitments to have it done by a certain date.

Alright, RP, lets not get into name-calling. I appologize for getting you spun-up. I just can't seem to help myself sometims. Especially when I sense a lot of unspoken goings-on. But, you're right anyway. I 'm just glad I admitted my assishness before anyone else had the opportunity to point it out. :bootyshak

But in the same way as you owe me nothing, niether do I owe you deference on this issue. If you can't stand the criticism, it would be better to keep the project a secret until all the kinks are ironed out. Posting on an internet forum is no way to shield your sensitivities.

Like I've said before, my IntX install was probably the most complex of all of them. I had to re-do the injector staging and move my injectors around to optimize the boost transitions. No big deal. The Intx was perfectly configurble for my unique needs. Now we all have my personal experience on which to draw. When someone else tries to FI a car that at 11psi ambient, they won't have to guess as to what it will take.

My point is that the forum can be a wealth of help and information as much as it can be a place where you might get offended. Deal with it. My suggestion would be to share your experiences so that someone might be able to provide some help on the issue. Granted, to do so requries that you swallow your ego for a while. But, someone might have just the piece of information that you need.

Again, I appologise for offending you. But, few things get me more piqued than a lot of people trying to hide something. I don't have a problem with the delays. I just have an issue with blaming them on something and then not being able to back it up with any technical information.

Sorry for tweaking you. I'll try to be better about it. I'm just an ass.

BTW: Does anyone care to address my question? Why would the EMS for a SC be any more challenging than for a turbo?

It's not. In fact the opposite should be true as boost can hit and rise pretty quick on a turbo where it is more gradual and predictable on a supercharger. On a turbo I would want to set it up so that additional injectors come online only when boost is sensed. This makes tuning safer. On a supercharger I'd run them staged so that they come on based on rpm rather than pressure and just adjust different load points in the map accordingly. Since a blower's boost curve is more predictable, this is much easier to do.

a friend sent this to me. a high pressure turbine disk let go at 95% power on a static run up

BTW: Does anyone care to address my question? Why would the EMS for a SC be any more challenging than for a turbo?

I can't possibly see how it could be. With a supercharger you know how much air you're getting at any given point. Ideally this is true with a turbo, but anyone who has ever owned a turbocharged car (factory or otherwise) knows that turbos do the damnedest things for no obvious reasons, more often than most would like. But in the end, they both do the exact same thing. The computer doesn't have the foggiest idea whether the car has a belt driven blower or an exhaust driven one.

Disclaimer: I'm not bagging on anyone, even though several thousand posts ago it was made clear that this is a 6port blower only (therefore being of no use to me), and I could care less about the progress anymore.

I do appreciate MD's threads, and the work he's done to bring progress to the Renesis aftermarket. Nothing wrong with getting a little fired up every now and then.

BTW: Does anyone care to address my question? Why would the EMS for a SC be any more challenging than for a turbo?[/QUOTE]


OK, in the interest of peace and harmony I'll answer that question........Wait, I already did. It's not that it doesn't work, it's that it doesn't work good enough or do enough and is twice the price.

Why would I deliver it or endorse it. I even tried to keep mouth shut.
Just simple, it works and for those who want to use it, best of luck to them.. It has done those cars well.
That doesn't mean there aren't better units out there and for half the price.

Look, Scott did his job well. he went out in the feild and built some maps and tuned a few cars then sold a bunch of units. On the other hand he did not make my car even driveable. I'm sure he has his exuse, but that doesn't interest me. The people you know of couldn't help, the people in Australia offered help, but WTF for? So I sell a less then best unit for twice the price to my customers? I'm not here to make someone else rich.

It's not the same for me. Sure someone can get it to work, but then what? I have a car that runs OK, but I can't sell the product. Why waste my time with it. Someone will buy mine, put in somone elses maps and be happy. He doesn't have to market it with a straight face. I have other needs. Time and money being some of them.
:kiss:

RP, I just want to say I love your ethics.

I work for a music store in Lancaster and we have a policy that no instrument is handed over to customer unless it plays absolutely perfect. Even when we sell a brand new instrument, we pull it out of the box and tweak it to perfection before any customer is allowed to play it. Running our business like that has been enormously sucessful.

So don't let anyone change the way to produce your products. I'm more than happy to wait for a product that's done right and it'll pay off for you in the end

Keep up the good work, and I've got my money waiting in the bank for that kickass SC as soon as its ready ;)

RP, I just want to say I love your ethics.

I work for a music store in Lancaster and we have a policy that no instrument is handed over to customer unless it plays absolutely perfect. Even when we sell a brand new instrument, we pull it out of the box and tweak it to perfection before any customer is allowed to play it.

damn, i wish guitar center had that plicy when i worked for them!!! i ended up quitting because i couldn't, in good conscience, be involved with a company with such shady tactics.

I am patient.

being as I live in the shadow of Boeing, and since most of my family works with Jets, this is the horsepower solution I want for my car.

if it takes another couple of years, I'll still wait.

RP, what is the chance of purchasing just the supercharger? this seems like a fun toy to try on my Alfa Spider as well.


It will work for your Alfa. We are gearing up for 50 units right now. Some parts are in process as we speak. I think the Rx layout will package for you also. :cool:
1300, 1600, 1750 or 2000?
Wow, why do I know that? My head hurts now. :dunno:

Haha, thats why we have such a loyal customer base. Everyone know that 99% of repair shops only do what they need to get by. We make sure the stuff we fix and sell actually works. Shoot, we even have our repair shop right in the middle of the showroom floor so everyone can see what we're doing!

If the AFSC came as plug and play with a flash upload, I'd be content to wait for that. I don't want to have to have the car dyno tuned and go through those headaches, even if it costs me a little hp. I don't want to worry about passing emmissions and always have a CEL.

And I can guarantee that I'm not the only one that would either purchase the Pettit or Axial unit based on that flash feature. If one had it and the other didn't, I'd go with the flash capable unit and never think twice.

Everyone, who is in the know, has been saying that flash tuning is right around the corner for several months to a year. I'm not buying it anymore. PnP capability just might not be feasible, and I can live with that, as long as the tune is close and just needs tweaking. If I had to lay odds on a flash tuner coming out in the next year, I'd put it less that 1:1. A PnP kit's odds would be about even. But that's just my opinion.

Everyone, who is in the know, has been saying that flash tuning is right around the corner for several months to a year. I'm not buying it anymore. PnP capability just might not be feasible, and I can live with that, as long as the tune is close and just needs tweaking. If I had to lay odds on a flash tuner coming out in the next year, I'd put it less that 1:1. A PnP kit's odds would be about even. But that's just my opinion.


i will take that bet..

beers :beer:

Everyone, who is in the know, has been saying that flash tuning is right around the corner for several months to a year. I'm not buying it anymore. PnP capability just might not be feasible, and I can live with that, as long as the tune is close and just needs tweaking. If I had to lay odds on a flash tuner coming out in the next year, I'd put it less that 1:1. A PnP kit's odds would be about even. But that's just my opinion.

I just don't accept that every other car on the planet has aftermarket flash capability and the RX-8 doesn't.

I'm just going to play spoiled little brat here, every one else has it mommy, why can't I!!!

http://www.cobbtuning.com/ one of the premier Subaru tuners is working on programming the RX-8 ECU right now. I offered do drive my car there to let them play but they said they have some local volunteers now.

It will work for your Alfa. We are gearing up for 50 units right now. Some parts are in process as we speak. I think the Rx layout will package for you also. :cool:
1300, 1600, 1750 or 2000?
Wow, why do I know that? My head hurts now. :dunno:

it is a new one, an 86 2000 with bosch injection.

I was going to get an old SPICA throttle body set and do a standalone ecu with shower head injectors like I am using on my Ducati and El-Camino (I love wet manifolds for cooling the intake charge)

but if I can supercharge it.....

but then, I am at 10.4 cr so it may not be feasible. but then the block is girdled...

If you all think RX-8's are expensive toys try Italian cr.., i mean equipment.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/ one of the premier Subaru tuners is working on programming the RX-8 ECU right now. I offered do drive my car there to let them play but they said they have some local volunteers now.


damn you,
i wanted to make that bet... and also two others..

beers :beer:

damn you,
i wanted to make that bet... and also two others..


that has been my problem through life, never knowing when to keep my mouth shut.

that has been my problem through life, never knowing when to keep my mouth shut.

yea,

like i have not made that mistake before!!!:lol:

beers :beer:

Ok Rp--just another note of support from the older guys here. You know young'uns are impatience. You have always said from the get go(and yes I have been around a while, read your 1st entry day you posted) that you will only provide this product if it is feasible and affordable and you would be damned if you had to use an engine management system that was more expensive that the af!
I m not knocking Scott here. Scott has put in some wrench time, developed a product that no one else had, and has been fair and open about it. Heck he even has volunteered his services in tuning to differant areas of the country for what I consider a pretty low fee.
To the rest of you on the forum-- RP has been around the block a time or two, he knows what he is doing, if he says he is going to do something--he will. And when it's offered it will be right. If it ain't right it wont be offered. He is one of those people that outs a little of himself into product sold and he has a hell of a lot of children.
olddragger

[Aircraft and race car side topic stuff deleted]

...I have three EMS system to test that will blow your system away while allowing all the stock componants to remain intact. That means it can pass a CARB test, have closed loop, knock sensor and cruise control. You don't have to look at a CEL light every time you look at the dash. On top of that they are half the price.

I intend to deliver these plug and play. No dyno shop required. Don't start with that crap that every engine is different. With modern machinery and inspection equipment they've never more the same. If someone whom I belive tests a batch of these things and tells me they all made between 214 and 219 HP how much closer do you expect? Those were early engines, they are probably closer now.
...
Well, I'll start with the crap that every engine is probably going to be different - and every RX-8 definitely is. Your potential install base is going to be primarilly '04's who have factory warranties expiring. That lot of cars has at least four different ECU flashes. (My '04 particular behaved a little different after each flash.) The more current flashes even know what gear you are in. (yes, the different ECU flashes are only a big deal if you do piggyback, but they are still something that will need to be dealt with.)

You have an engine with two hiccups in the power band due to the various intake valves closing and opening. Each hiccup is going to need its special consideration and is likely slightly different on each car.

My car drives slightly different from day to day. Some day's it has plenty of power, other days it acts like it is hungover. Some days the idle is smooth as silk and other days it almost stalls on its own in neutral. The simple fact that you can can let the clutch out and not touch the gas and the car will automatically increase the revs to prevent you from stalling, tells me this car is doing a lot behind the scenes. Some days the cruise control is perfectly well behaved and other days it has little lurches back and forth.

I think other driver's have similar issues. Among other driver's you have dyno sheets that are all over the place. You have fuel ecconomies that are all over the map (some people get black junk on the tail pipes; some don't). If I remember correct (page 23754 of this thread I believe) your car had tremendous problems and was very low on power from factory.

On top of all this RX-8 specific mess you have altitude, temperature, and reformulated gasoline differences that vary accross the country.

Greddy realized this and came out with a whimpy 5PSI Kit. (albeit with its own problems). If you want to do plug 'n play, I would suggest you do the same.

I know nothing about axial flow superchargers but I can tell you that each RX-8 is very much its own seperate different animal. Maybe if your proposed system can get rid of all the individuality of each car and really work off of the engine that you feel is identical in each RX-8, you'll be in business.

Good luck, and I do sincerely mean good luck. Let us know when you are finished.

-Mr. Wigggles

Mr Wiggles-- (love that name man!) in many ways you are correct, but the more we learn about this engine/car the more consistant the engine we get this engine to perform. Most cars are now dyno'ing 185 to the 195 range ONCE the car has good plugs, coils, clean maf's and non clogged cats. There is a rare one that will make over 200(jdm tune?) RP is not aiming at MAX performance but a good performing consitant daily driver that just so happens to have a good bit more power than stock. Enviromental differances-- heck yea they are there--nothing anyone can do about that.
olddragger

For the people who don't know, Trey Cobb of Cobb tuning, used to work for Rotary Performance in Dallas. He knows rotaries quite well.

Everyone, who is in the know, has been saying that flash tuning is right around the corner for several months to a year. I'm not buying it anymore. PnP capability just might not be feasible, and I can live with that, as long as the tune is close and just needs tweaking. If I had to lay odds on a flash tuner coming out in the next year, I'd put it less that 1:1. A PnP kit's odds would be about even. But that's just my opinion.

whats the bet? ill take it

wiggles-

by now every 2004 car will be to at least R flash because of the last recall. soon they will be at S again because of the recall. so anyone trying to go with a piggy back just needs to state what its based on. flash level is less of a bother if going with other solutions but in the case of say a reflash- that reflash has to be based on the most current so it has the desirable fixes from previous recalls that are not affected by the timing and fuel changes . but the flash difference is really a non issue for anything not piggy back. one thing tho is that thre is a difference between 2004 and 2005- a flash for 2004 will not work on a 2005 car. so for a flash there has to be at least 2 to choose from.

nothing else is that different from car to car for the rigth solution. most of what you talk about is enviromental. the pcm adjusts for most of those things. a reflash would have the benefit of the power of the pcm to adjust. thats what fuel trims are for any way- to adjust for the variances in inectors from car to car. btw the car has always known what gear it is in from the begining(jeff will argue but it does) and has maps assigned to different gears and develops trim for different gears. although often they are the same.


piggy backs are have actually one thing over interceptors and thats the adaption by the PCM. all those Greddy kitted people wouldnt have had problems(well basically) if they had been on theM it was designed for and wanted to stay with the "stock" greddy power. they can have aset tune and let the pcm still control for knock and adjust for things in closed loop etc. greddy unfortunately just didnt do a good job out of the gate.

since the interceptor types remove the control from the pcm they dont have that benefit. so have to have various ways to adapt to altitude and such thro more maps to switch between. they have to be fine tuned on each car to deal with tolerance differences between fuel injector etc. but they are easily adapted to changing from the "stock" set up from a kit and dont have to worry about being developed for a particular factory tune.

a reflash has all the benefits of the PCM but just gives it new instructions. So the PCM can do its thing all the time with worries. no need tpo worry about things like altitude and humidity becaue the pcm takes care of those things already and continues to do so. it needs to be based on most current PCM codes so ther eare no bugs. Its basically locked so the owner doesnt have to worry and cna just plug and play. The company can set a tune and not worry that someone will screw with it and then blame them when an engien fails. but its locked so people generally cant upgrade themselves.

so the slight variances between cars really make no difference to the reflash only slightly larger difference to the piggyback and the biggest influence on the interceptors. and only when you get into the territory of the size of your safety margin from the kit developer and the end user's wanting to change things.

i believe richard wants to remove the variable of the end user as much as possible by offering basically "locked" tuning. an interceptor which allows anyone to tune it really isnt the solution.

- my use of interceptor above does no tmean scott's unit in particular. im using it to reference any system that runs in a similar fashion

oh yeah and...

click me (http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm) then scroll to ongoing developments near the bottom

" ECU/PCM Reprogramming - (Update 6/06) - Good news, Bad news. The good news is that we finally developed a flash for the RX-8 that offers improved power and performance! We have undertaken several successful test reflashes on 2004 RX-8's, but the bad news is that we are currently limited to only the 2004 model. We are currently researching this limitation and will post more information in the near future."

so someone just lost a bet

Whoa, sweet news from RB.

Would you believe a 10 HP gain from RB?

yes

damn you bastards,

i needed that money... i never bet unless i know i won...

it works better that way...

beers :beer:

yes
Any estimates on what that number may be?

so someone just lost a bet

Still under development I see. And there's no bet, just odds. Let's see them apply it to an aftermarket power adder successfully before people start claiming victory. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.

Is this full control, or just fuel control? Idle? Ignition timing? Split? Fans? Never any details with RB. Handheld unit or stupid mail off program? etc etc etc.

Still under development I see. And there's no bet, just odds. Let's see them apply it to an aftermarket power adder successfully before people start claiming victory. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.

lay down your bet!!!!! you pick the rules, i will say yes or no...

beers :beer:

Still under development I see. And there's no bet, just odds. Let's see them apply it to an aftermarket power adder successfully before people start claiming victory. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.

Is this full control, or just fuel control? Idle? Ignition timing? Split? Fans? Never any details with RB. Handheld unit or stupid mail off program? etc etc etc.
It is a reflash. That's it. The end user has no control.

It is a reflash. That's it. The end user has no control.Well your assuming their not packaging any software with it and a flasher device that lets you load several different maps; ie performance, mileage (no aggressive driving), vallet (keeps rpm below 4000), anti-theft (car won't start) etc.

Or do you know for sure?

I'm assuming nothing.

wiggles-

by now every 2004 car will be to at least R flash because of the last recall. soon they will be at S again because of the recall. so anyone trying to go with a piggy back just needs to state what its based on. flash level is less of a bother if going with other solutions but in the case of say a reflash- that reflash has to be based on the most current so it has the desirable fixes from previous recalls that are not affected by the timing and fuel changes . but the flash difference is really a non issue for anything not piggy back. one thing tho is that thre is a difference between 2004 and 2005- a flash for 2004 will not work on a 2005 car. so for a flash there has to be at least 2 to choose from.

.
Not every 2004. I have never reflashed my 8 at all. My 8 has allways felt pretty good compared to others I have driven that have been reflashed. I have flooded only once and have had 1 coil pack issue that was fixed with new coil packs and new plugs under warranty.

It is a reflash. That's it. The end user has no control.


Ahah!! I'm back in the game.

I wonder if the flash takes any mods into consideration--or is it based on the stock rx8 presentation?--- I want this!
olddragger

Still under development I see. And there's no bet, just odds. Let's see them apply it to an aftermarket power adder successfully before people start claiming victory. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.

Is this full control, or just fuel control? Idle? Ignition timing? Split? Fans? Never any details with RB. Handheld unit or stupid mail off program? etc etc etc.

THEY HAVE PREVIOUSLY SYTATED IN AN INTERVIEW DOEN BY ME AND PRINTED IN RXTuner THAT they have full control to change all the fuel timing redline fans etc etc etc. That bit on the website says they have them driving in people's cars. They have previously made flash programs for SC and TC cars so have those ready. We talked about that after 7stock last year. Damon said they had a sc map runnign at 200%VE or somesuch. More Details coming soon.

Not every 2004. I have never reflashed my 8 at all. My 8 has allways felt pretty good compared to others I have driven that have been reflashed. I have flooded only once and have had 1 coil pack issue that was fixed with new coil packs and new plugs under warranty.

dude you never even got M done? go get a damn flash. Did you have the Recall work done for the 3305g thermal damage recall?

RB does have and has had for a couple of years now, full ecu retuning ability. This does not mean that if and when they release a flash for actualy sale, that it will be one that everyone is happy with, meets everyones overblown expectations, or will come complete with total user reflash controls. It won't. Don't expect to get incredible gas mileage, and 50 more hp. You won't. It will be like any other conservative upgrade. At a guess, it will probably be somewhere around 10-15 more hp, maybe some revised rev limits, intake function changes, and potentially little to no change to drivability maps or fuel economy for emissions reasons. This is a realistic scenario. The reflash will be a service offered for a nominal fee. When I say service, I mean it just as with porting an engine, lapping side housings, etc. The ecu will have to be in their posession. That means removing it and mailing it out to be flashed. They do have the ability to tune for forced induction. Don't think they are going to develop some magical FI map for people the purchase for use with their turbo kits. They aren't. There are way too many parameters to affect that. On a naturally aspirated car, 1 flash works for all assuming of course your engine is not ported. It's always been that way and always will be. You do not need a different flash for different locations. Only this forum could think up such things.

I will send mine in--no problem-- cant help but wonder when they will start accepting. I wonder if it will be top end focused or I hope under the curve type of tune. Hope under the curve. i think I will call them on Monday.
OD

I'd wait to see Cobb's flashing system before jumping on the RB flash

You do not need a different flash for different locations. Only this forum could think up such things.

:mdrmed:
i agree for the stock ecu. but when guys do ems stuff, it makes a difference when they don't have the capability to do accurate temp correction.

ex: car is tuned in 110* weather where i live, then the guy moves to alaska and drives in sub-zero temps. (yes, unlikely, but it's an exaggerated point) you could always do the pv=nrt equation for correction, but who's to say this exact engine will react exactly how it should on paper?

If Cobb does actually release a flash for the RX-8... it'll more than likely be like their others...

AccessPort ECU Programmer tool
http://cobbtuning.com/legacy/accessport.html

AccessPort Street Tuner software
http://cobbtuning.com/legacy/ap-streettuner.html

Best of both worlds. Pre-programmed flashes and downloadable flashes (from Cobb's site) via CAN/OBDII port tool AND ECU tuning software.

IF this really does come out for the RX-8... why bother with RB... no ability to tune, no upgrades (as far as we know) and worst is you have to send them your ECU. Sucks in book.

Keep complaining about the size of this thread.
It's about to expand ^2 by itself, why all the off topic, there are already flash threads. :nono:

There is no referance to tunning an RX 8, Cobb is all hype.

It's like saying:

"If Mazda only released the software tuning tools for 8..."

Dream on boys........

just another note of support from the older guys here. You know young'uns are impatience.

Hey now, you old fart. I'm 26 and have been following quietly and patiently all along (which does take considerable self restraint, but that's a personality issue, not age). When I saw mention of the Intercepter my heart sank for a moment (I don't really want to f*** around with tuning). I'd much rather spend my time/money on improving the nut behind the wheel than tweaking injectors. When I heard there were problems with the Interceptor I had mixed fealings (Damn, another delay vs Whoo hoo, no bloated price tag on the Interceptor). All these dealays just mean I have more time to get the suspension further ahead of the horse power before I make it too easy get myself into even more trouble.

BTW, I'll be making an order for the short-shifter with my next pay-cheque. I just took the time to check out the site, and damn that all looks pretty on there.

In short, a note of support and nail-biting patience from the younger crowd.

There is no referance to tunning an RX 8, Cobb is all hype.



the reference is to Trey from Cobb posting in the Utah thread in Mountain forum

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=1394814#post1394814

the reference is to Trey from Cobb posting in the Utah thread in Mountain forum

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=1394814#post1394814

Plenty of people have posted a "hey guys look at what we're planning" thread here before. Very few follow through, and those who do usually stick around and provide updates, and threads where we can go off topic and stuff... :D:

hehe you're post 3600:)

Hey now, you old fart. I'm 26 and have been following quietly and patiently all along (which does take considerable self restraint, but that's a personality issue, not age). When I saw mention of the Intercepter my heart sank for a moment (I don't really want to f*** around with tuning). I'd much rather spend my time/money on improving the nut behind the wheel than tweaking injectors. When I heard there were problems with the Interceptor I had mixed fealings (Damn, another delay vs Whoo hoo, no bloated price tag on the Interceptor). All these dealays just mean I have more time to get the suspension further ahead of the horse power before I make it too easy get myself into even more trouble.

BTW, I'll be making an order for the short-shifter with my next pay-cheque. I just took the time to check out the site, and damn that all looks pretty on there.

In short, a note of support and nail-biting patience from the younger crowd.

hey, i'm the only one that gets to call that old fart an old fart :nono:

i think richard should release it with or without an ems option. i got the interceptor staging fine on his car, but didn't get to fully tune it. if someone got the a/f when it's ready i could do a map for it. that'd open up the option for guys that already have and like the interceptor and just wanted to add the supercharger.

Plenty of people have posted a "hey guys look at what we're planning" thread here before. Very few follow through, and those who do usually stick around and provide updates, and threads where we can go off topic and stuff... :D:

You don't see RB or Borla around here.... anymore. They were around briefly when the cat-backs where first coming out and then they kinda faded away. That's ok. My point is just that there are examples of products where the maker/vendor came on for a few posts and then disappeared, but we still got a fine product.

hey, i'm the only one that gets to call that old fart an old fart :nono:

i think richard should release it with or without an ems option. i got the interceptor staging fine on his car, but didn't get to fully tune it. if someone got the a/f when it's ready i could do a map for it. that'd open up the option for guys that already have and like the interceptor and just wanted to add the supercharger.

So you set it up like I have mine? "Sequential" staging instead of "Seq &Aux"? That works great for me, (but I do have 1250cc's of injection per rotor now :ylsuper: ) Tell us more about your experiences!

You can find my Intercepter X in the "for sale" forum.
It's now in the trunk, ready for a new home with someone who loves it.

hey, i'm the only one that gets to call that old fart an old fart :nono:

i think richard should release it with or without an ems option. i got the interceptor staging fine on his car, but didn't get to fully tune it. if someone got the a/f when it's ready i could do a map for it. that'd open up the option for guys that already have and like the interceptor and just wanted to add the supercharger.

... or you can dump the RP's ECM, throw a smaller pulley and tune it with Int-X.
But don't call RP if something goes wrong. :nono:

So you set it up like I have mine? "Sequential" staging instead of "Seq &Aux"?

yup, that did the trick.

... or you can dump the RP's ECM, throw a smaller pulley and tune it with Int-X.
But don't call RP if something goes wrong. :nono:


do you think anyone in their right mind would blame the mfr. if they tuned it themselves?

Some people will blame anyone but themselves!

I didn't say that. LOL. It was the keyboards fault ;)

Cheers,
Hymee.

Some people will blame anyone but themselves! ...

yep.

yup, that did the trick.


I disagree, and now it's in the trunk.

You can argue if you like, but guess who gets to say :icon_tdow or :icon_tup:

Everyone is missing the point, you keep thinking in one user terms.
It doesn't fucking matter to me if any of you can make it work.
It's to much trouble and to much money for me to sell with a straight face.

My goal is to sell the top of the line high tech unit. The requirment for that isn't just a high price. Don't ever think because it costs more that it's better. Not so. If we all bought that we'd all drive MB'z.
Sure, always expect to pay for what you get, just be smart enough to get what intended to buy.

Now, can you guys read between the lines of those two statments?

As you all know I'm no diplomat, I speak what I think no matter
how it hurts me in the end. :banghead:

Too bad a person can't just reflash the stock ECU... ;)

That would make any kit less expensive...

Hey RP it looks like Racing beat can reflash the ecm see below from thier website

- ECU/PCM Reprogramming - (Update 6/06) - Good news, Bad news. The good news is that we finally developed a flash for the RX-8 that offers improved power and performance! We have undertaken several successful test reflashes on 2004 RX-8's, but the bad news is that we are currently limited to only the 2004 model. We are currently researching this limitation and will post more information in the near future.

Is there any way to leverage thier work??

like I have said before-- When RP does something and offers it for sale it is done right to HIS standards(which I accept). I will wait.
olddragger

do you think anyone in their right mind would blame the mfr. if they tuned it themselves?

I believe if someone go that way, he know what is he up to
and wont blame anyone but himself.
But what if Xguy buy the kit, go to a shop and say "Hey, I want you to install this SC for me, but I don't like the power it makes. Can you make it do more?". And they " Sure, No problem." and put some cheap EMB and blow the engine. Then say to Xguy "Ummmh, this SC kit was bad..."
You know what's next...
Just some thoughts.

like I have said before-- When RP does something and offers it for sale it is done right to HIS standards(which I accept). I will wait.
olddragger

what he said, and i have a bottle of adult beverage invested in this project...

i hope it helps rp!!!! or is it all gone??

beers :beer:

I disagree, and now it's in the trunk.

You can argue if you like, but guess who gets to say :icon_tdow or :icon_tup:

Everyone is missing the point, you keep thinking in one user terms.
It doesn't fucking matter to me if any of you can make it work.
It's to much trouble and to much money for me to sell with a straight face.

My goal is to sell the top of the line high tech unit. The requirment for that isn't just a high price. Don't ever think because it costs more that it's better. Not so. If we all bought that we'd all drive MB'z.
Sure, always expect to pay for what you get, just be smart enough to get what intended to buy.

Now, can you guys read between the lines of those two statments?

As you all know I'm no diplomat, I speak what I think no matter
how it hurts me in the end. :banghead:

Actually I do know exactly what you mean. And you'll also know from my posts that I have had the same opinion... which is why I am always pushing for people to stop wasting time with this old technology and get a ECU flash tuner out. I can bet that some people will say... hey it's one more solution out there and it's there now. My response is yeah it is... and the development, etc. of it is also resources that could have been devoted to a flash tuner, but weren't and will never be. In other words... one less chance for a flash tuner to be developed.

Any ideas why I always mention Saleen and Kenne Bell in relation to FI and flash tuning? Not just because I am more familiar with them, but because they have some economy of scale... they have a pretty big market and a very successful product. Hell... Saleen's stuff is sold/installed at dealers and retains the factory warranty. Both makers' kits simply bolt-on, flash the ECU and you are ready to go. Their kits require no tuning, no dyno time, no blown up engines... no worries. If run within specified parameters... it's as good as factory OEM. From a business standpoint (which is what Richard HAS to look at)... this setup is easier for people to install, easier for him to support and leaves little to no liability of people blowing up their engines. Seeing their popularity and such... this is what people want (the average consumer in this market). I know that this is what I want in a FI kit.

I believe if someone go that way, he know what is he up to
and wont blame anyone but himself.
But what if Xguy buy the kit, go to a shop and say "Hey, I want you to install this SC for me, but I don't like the power it makes. Can you make it do more?". And they " Sure, No problem." and put some cheap EMB and blow the engine. Then say to Xguy "Ummmh, this SC kit was bad..."
You know what's next...
Just some thoughts.

If the S/C comes with it's own pre-programmed engine management (flash, piggyback, or whatever) and it's clearly written (as it is on Kenne Bell's site) that you do not need to and should not dyno tune the kit. Even if you add exhaust or whatever later... the system is programmed to always run optimally (sensor feedback). Changing the tune yourself = void warranty

Not everyone who buys a "kit" without engine mangement knows what they are doing... or is employing a good shop that actually knows what they are doing.

Actually I do know exactly what you mean. And you'll also know from my posts that I have had the same opinion... which is why I am always pushing for people to stop wasting time with this old technology and get a ECU flash tuner out. I can bet that some people will say... hey it's one more solution out there and it's there now. My response is yeah it is... and the development, etc. of it is also resources that could have been devoted to a flash tuner, but weren't and will never be. In other words... one less chance for a flash tuner to be developed.

Any ideas why I always mention Saleen and Kenne Bell in relation to FI and flash tuning? Not just because I am more familiar with them, but because they have some economy of scale... they have a pretty big market and a very successful product. Hell... Saleen's stuff is sold/installed at dealers and retains the factory warranty. Both makers' kits simply bolt-on, flash the ECU and you are ready to go. Their kits require no tuning, no dyno time, no blown up engines... no worries. If run within specified parameters... it's as good as factory OEM. From a business standpoint (which is what Richard HAS to look at)... this setup is easier for people to install, easier for him to support and leaves little to no liability of people blowing up their engines. Seeing their popularity and such... this is what people want (the average consumer in this market). I know that this is what I want in a FI kit.

i watched a procharger mustang on a dyno that they were working on the ecu flash for it... it was the first 06 they had tested... the ecu was totally different that the 05. what they did was amazing...

the problem is that what are the mustang sales... audi sales the ford truck sales... the people that are doing this stuff are in it for the money. and that is fine.

just not enough #s in the rx8...

beers :beer:

I disagree, and now it's in the trunk.

You can argue if you like, but guess who gets to say :icon_tdow or :icon_tup:

Everyone is missing the point, you keep thinking in one user terms.
It doesn't fucking matter to me if any of you can make it work.
It's to much trouble and to much money for me to sell with a straight face.

My goal is to sell the top of the line high tech unit. The requirment for that isn't just a high price. Don't ever think because it costs more that it's better. Not so. If we all bought that we'd all drive MB'z.
Sure, always expect to pay for what you get, just be smart enough to get what intended to buy.

Now, can you guys read between the lines of those two statments?

As you all know I'm no diplomat, I speak what I think no matter
how it hurts me in the end. :banghead:


rich, i wasn't trying to sell you on using it. it's too expensive and doesn't have the right features for your kit. all i said is i made it work.

i watched a procharger mustang on a dyno that they were working on the ecu flash for it... it was the first 06 they had tested... the ecu was totally different that the 05. what they did was amazing...

the problem is that what are the mustang sales... audi sales the ford truck sales... the people that are doing this stuff are in it for the money. and that is fine.

just not enough #s in the rx8...

beers :beer:

It is amazing isn't it? A different ECu in the 2006 than the 2005? Why change it after 1 year?! Or did you mean 2004 and 2005? The ECU used in the new Mustang is really advanced according what I've read.

Oh... I understand about the difference in sales, but... what about the Subaru's... STi, WRX, Forrester, Legacy... what about the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution? What about VAG cars? BMW's?

It is amazing isn't it? A different ECu in the 2006 than the 2005? Why change it after 1 year?! Or did you mean 2004 and 2005? The ECU used in the new Mustang is really advanced according what I've read.

Oh... I understand about the difference in sales, but... what about the Subaru's... STi, WRX, Forrester, Legacy... what about the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution? What about VAG cars? BMW's?

it was an 05 and 06. the ecu was not different the coding was...

the subies are all linked together. same or simalar ecu... so you get one you get them all.... the rx8 ecu is different from them all... and is compatable with nothing...

we are doomed by are #s... thank you to racing beat... hope a deal can be struck...

beers :beer:

It is amazing isn't it? A different ECu in the 2006 than the 2005? Why change it after 1 year?! Or did you mean 2004 and 2005? The ECU used in the new Mustang is really advanced according what I've read.

Oh... I understand about the difference in sales, but... what about the Subaru's... STi, WRX, Forrester, Legacy... what about the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution? What about VAG cars? BMW's?

You can't just look at total cars sold with a particular ECU, you have to look at how many owners of a given brand car are interested in modifying their car and/or voiding the warranty. Most people who wanted power didn't buy an RX-8 to begin with, they bought WRX's, evo's, and so forth. Limited production + different owner demographics = not very big potential sales.

It's sort of the opposite for the GTO guys from what I understand. Loads of engine performance enhancers, and not nearly as much in the way of suspension mods and bodykits. People interested primarily in handling and looks didn't buy a GTO to begin with.

I tend to think that the 8's engine aftermarket will not truly take off until there are large numbers of 8's on the road with enough years/miles on them to have voided warranties. Or until they have depreciated enough to be an affordable alternative project car to a FD.

im feeling lazy right now...... when is this kit SUPPOSED to be completed? is there an ETA yet?

im feeling lazy right now...... when is this kit SUPPOSED to be completed? is there an ETA yet?

when it is done.

and likely two days after you buy something else.:lol:

beers :beer:

haha, swoope! not funny! that's exactly what i'm afraid of!!! I would much rather have this kit then a turbo kit... but.... i will take what I can get when funding is available!!!

I figure I still have a wait, so I went and blew my wad on carbon fiber bodywork for the Ducati.

so, now I get to stash away again. Amazing how a lack of toy money can give you patience.

when it is done.

and likely two days after you buy something else.:lol:

beers :beer:


Yes, and that time is comming soon, so don't spend your money.

See yaww at Seven Stock :mdrmed:

Well it's a good thing it might take a BIT longer to roll out with a commercially available FI system (Axial Flow, Petit, etc) that gives me a little bit of time to take care of some basic mods and save as well.

I've never owned a boosted car and am very cautious as well as very consumer conscious... like any normal person, if I were to drop $5,000+ dollars for parts and even more for installation and tuning and in the end have something thats not at LEAST as drivable as what I have now... I would be quite pissed. right now I'm putting about 185 horses to the wheels (conservative estimate) as the only mod I have right now is a high flow CAT/midpipe from RX7.com

what would make me super happy would be a supercharging system that would put 280-300 to the wheels, not cost over $7,000 installed and tuned and retain all the creature comforts/drivability of my stock RX8. hmmm am i living in a dream world?

Well it's a good thing it might take a BIT longer to roll out with a commercially available FI system (Axial Flow, Petit, etc) that gives me a little bit of time to take care of some basic mods and save as well.

I've never owned a boosted car and am very cautious as well as very consumer conscious... like any normal person, if I were to drop $5,000+ dollars for parts and even more for installation and tuning and in the end have something thats not at LEAST as drivable as what I have now... I would be quite pissed. right now I'm putting about 185 horses to the wheels (conservative estimate) as the only mod I have right now is a high flow CAT/midpipe from RX7.com

what would make me super happy would be a supercharging system that would put 280-300 to the wheels, not cost over $7,000 installed and tuned and retain all the creature comforts/drivability of my stock RX8. hmmm am i living in a dream world?

i think if you take out installed it could happen...

beers :beer:

You can't just look at total cars sold with a particular ECU, you have to look at how many owners of a given brand car are interested in modifying their car and/or voiding the warranty. Most people who wanted power didn't buy an RX-8 to begin with, they bought WRX's, evo's, and so forth. Limited production + different owner demographics = not very big potential sales.

G35, 350Z, S2000, Miata... How many BMW's are modded out of the total sold? I'm not saying that you're entirely wrong... just that there is enough of a market to warrant ECU flash development. Particularly if your company already makes one for other brands. You have the basic hardware and know-how that reduces the amount of investment necessary to make it happen. It just seems more like no one cares. It's not just the RX-8... but ALMOST all Mazdas... even though there are a number of Mazda3 and Mazda6 on the road... and plenty of modded ones. It can also be a chicken and egg situation... no one mods them much because there are few products available besides exhaust and intake. Since few are modded, no one wants to invest in building a flash tuner. In this situation... it doesn't work for every model and make, but in the case of the RX-8... build it and they will come. Once good affordable FI kits are widely available more people who want power will pickup a used RX-8 for cheap and bolt-on FI.


It's sort of the opposite for the GTO guys from what I understand. Loads of engine performance enhancers, and not nearly as much in the way of suspension mods and bodykits. People interested primarily in handling and looks didn't buy a GTO to begin with.

The GTO is in a bit of a different boat though. It has either the LS1 or LS2 engine... which is used in other cars already. That helped to make for not only more units sold, but also gave the engine a head start on the aftermarket.


I tend to think that the 8's engine aftermarket will not truly take off until there are large numbers of 8's on the road with enough years/miles on them to have voided warranties. Or until they have depreciated enough to be an affordable alternative project car to a FD.

I don't think it's the warranty thing so much. I think it has to do with costs first (needs to depreciate more) and second lack of straight line performance in stock form combined with a lack of an aftermarket remedy.

I just don't accept that every other car on the planet has aftermarket flash capability and the RX-8 doesn't.

I'm just going to play spoiled little brat here, every one else has it mommy, why can't I!!!

I can tell you with assurance that, despite many people's hopes/dreams in the Miata/MX-5 community, we've never had flash capability either. And the Miata's been around for 16+ years and sold a helluva lot more units than the RX-8; we should be so lucky!

Our option used to be stand-alone ECU for $1,500+ or nothing. Now at least we have the e-Manage for $250-500, although, of course, it's far less capable. People are now getting into the Megasquirt in the Miata community because they don't feel like spending $1,500-3,000 to have full control over their fuel, timing and boost control.

yep... it seriously looks like it's a Mazda thing. The only question is why...

because they're haters

I can tell you with assurance that, despite many people's hopes/dreams in the Miata/MX-5 community, we've never had flash capability either. And the Miata's been around for 16+ years and sold a helluva lot more units than the RX-8; we should be so lucky!

Our option used to be stand-alone ECU for $1,500+ or nothing. Now at least we have the e-Manage for $250-500, although, of course, it's far less capable. People are now getting into the Megasquirt in the Miata community because they don't feel like spending $1,500-3,000 to have full control over their fuel, timing and boost control.

Well since my post that has changed as Racing Beat has now announced their flash capability. Even if what they are willing to do is limited, others can't be far behind. If we get Cobb's Accessport, or something of that nature, then we'll really have something.

I'm not a programmer, but from speaking to programmers there can't be anything magical about Mazda/RX-8 code. As for why the Miata hasn't had it, maybe the community hasn't complained enough to the right people? There are certainly enough Miatas out there to warrant a flash. Also what kind of power gains are we looking at here for Miatas? Like 50hp from a Jackson Racing unit? In other words, maybe there's nothing because there isn't a large enough demand for a lot more power within the Miata community? Many of us have come from RX-7s or other more powerful cars, there is a definite demand within our community.

I spoke to Cobb, they are making good progress. If I decide to go that way, I'll wait for that.

As for why the Miata hasn't had it, maybe the community hasn't complained enough to the right people?

I'd suspect that is the case.

Also what kind of power gains are we looking at here for Miatas? Like 50hp from a Jackson Racing unit? In other words, maybe there's nothing because there isn't a large enough demand for a lot more power within the Miata community?

There are currently four different vendors offering unique supercharger kits, ranging in power increases from ~40rwhp (the dated, M45-based JRSC) to ~200+rwhp (BRP and FFS's MP62-based kits and FM/BEGi's 1.2L Whipple-based kits) and at least five different vendors that sell unique turbocharger kits ranging from ~40rwhp to ~250rwhp increases. These are supported "kits," not bespoke one-offs.

There's definitely a desire for power in the Miata community, but I think you're right that we've never complained to the "right" people :)

to ~250rwhp increases. These are supported "kits," not bespoke one-offs.

There's definitely a desire for power in the Miata community, but I think you're right that we've never complained to the "right" people :)

250rwhp increases is insane for a car that weighs that much! I'm not all that familiar with the Miata community - at 6'2" I never wanted to try and fit in one - who builds that kit above? I'd just like to check out their website for curiosity.

I'm 6'3" and just barely fit in my car :)

Check these sites out: www.brperformance.com , www.flyinmiata.com , www.bellengineering.net , www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com , www.racingmazda.com , www.biggulp.net ...trying to think of any others. The little Jackson Racing M45 supercharger was the first positive-displacement blower for Miatas, but it only flows enough air for ~190rwhp on a good day, so not many people bother with them anymore.

There have been quite a few 400+rwhp Miatas (relatively speaking) and even a couple 500+rwhp Miatas, but they were all one-offs that didn't really share any parts with the kits sold by the aforementioned vendors.

I agree.... I suspect that the Miata community hasn't complained to the right people. I remember seeing something about the Mazda6 and Mazda3 communities trying to get something from SCT as it shares the same basic engine (and platform) with the Ford Fusion and Ford Focus (respectively). I think it turned out that the ECU's are different between Mazda and Ford though.

Anyway... it is obvious that there is a market for flash tuners for the Mazda community. If only people will stop wasting resources on standalones and piggybacks, and get their shit in gear on flash tuners. At least Cobb is taking a look at it now and seems to be making progress.

RB's flash. If they are still sticking with their original plan for people to ship their ECU's to RB for flashing... that sucks to say the least. To say more... it's impractical and below the industry standard bar.

Does anyone really know what Cobb's progress is? I think I saw a couple of posts asking for a volunteer or two, then an announcement that the recruiting had been finalised.

Cheers,
Hymee.

So in addition to the supercharger, what other parts are going to come with this kit? I know a new sway bar and new intake is needed. anything else?

Does anyone really know what Cobb's progress is? I think I saw a couple of posts asking for a volunteer or two, then an announcement that the recruiting had been finalised.

Cheers,
Hymee.
Check PM.

I wanna check his PM too. :sad:

So in addition to the supercharger, what other parts are going to come with this kit? I know a new sway bar and new intake is needed. anything else?
You mean strut bar right?

You mean strut bar right?

Ahh. I think so, strut is up top, sway is on the bottom correct?

^^^
That's correct.

do you think anyone in their right mind would blame the mfr. if they tuned it themselves?

yes this is america land of the stupidly innocent after all.

RP any thought on modification of the crankcase vent system with this FI?
olddragger

RP any thought on modification of the crankcase vent system with this FI?
olddragger


No, the thought never occured to me. We just conected the crankcase vacuum hose to the inlet side of the supercharger. There is always vacuum there even when the manifold is positive. Same goes for the power brakes. Same goes for the vacuum actuated inlet tuning devices.

dont think blowback will be a problems at your boost level? I admit i am not as knowledgeable about the renasis's crankcase vent system as I am about recips, but people are already having some problems with blowback/blow through on NA engines. Sealing--who knows? Just a though. Some of us)including myself) had had this and we have installed oil catch cans between the oil filler neck and the intake(after the maf) before the engine recirculates that crap via our intakes. Some of us cap off the intake connector and make the old style downdraft tube running under the car. Our engines have responded very well. Not speaking of access to vacumn. Talking about crap in the intake air. i know I know emissions and all, but heck we dont even have a pcv on the 04-05!
something to think about.
Olddragger

whats a pcv?

why dont i have one!

positive crankcast ventilation valve--flows one way--helps recirculate crankcase gas's into the intake--to combustion chamber to reburn--reduce pollution-- one of the 1st emissions device ever added to an engine.
olddragger

wow...this is such a learning thread! hehe.... cheers!