well in English its a measure for mixing alcoholic beverages also known as a shot

1 jigger = 1 shot = 1.5 fluid ounces = 44.3602945 milliliters

jigger is also the name of the cup used to do the measuring-

single jigger

http://www.atomic78.com/prodimages/jd/jack-daniels-metal-shot-set-v2.jpg

double jigger

http://img.epinions.com/images/opti/ed/64/Pedrini_Stainless_Steel_Double_Jigger_Cooking_Tool s-resized200.jpg


I have no idea what it is in Australian;)

i believe it is akin to "doo-hickey" in US english :D:

now that i think about about it, probably a shortened version of "thing-a-ma-jigger"

RP any vids (with sound!!) of the system up an running?

Glyphon wins the prize.

Cheers,
Hymee.

It is also US Southern slang for get-it-in-place-however-you-can

It is also US Southern slang for get-it-in-place-however-you-can

*deep southern slang*

putcher door back on its henges, then take tha bolt an' jigger it until it goes in.

Man I'm gone for the day and this thread fills up with questions.

Power band should just rise in a way following the rotarys normal path except it gets more poewer built up as it revs.
I can for sure feel the added power as I let build boost. It is nice under freeway cruise to add throttle and feel the extra torque.
It has synthetic oil in it now.
The outlet 90 has 5 layers of poliester weave.
We could have a oil res built in but this takes away the heat better.
Roots (ki) did your ancestors (Roots Bros) desighn the original PD blower?
Alt will be self compensating. It is better then a turbo in that the temp doesnt effect the boost. In a turbo it has to work harder with less heat and density so may get into an inefficiant area of operation.

It's just Root, unfortunately... and my ancestors were responsible for the Silver King line of farming tractors, railway locomotives, and a line of beekeeping and candle products. Yeah.... :dunno:

I'z only joking with you Rootski :hahano:

Car is still running. No problems. Drove in heavy traffic yesterday for 2.5 hrs.

What's the sound like?

What's the sound like?

Double whipped cream....... :)

What's the sound like?

Not keeping up with your reading, Nemesis? :nono:

In post 3099, Richard said:

You cannot hear it unless you open the throttle and then it is only a slight whine. If you know its there and listen for it you can hear it standing next to it. I drove it down between two block buildings just to check and it is there but hardly. Only if you know what to listen for, otherwise you might think it was an alt going out.

So, in other words, it sounds just like a stock RX-8...being chased by a 737. :)

You need to spend less time hanging out with Tom Cruise at the mall and more time memorizing this thread. :spank:

I've heard it running on the test stand. It sounds like a jet. :) But that was with a totally open discharge.

Then Torque ran away.

Cheers,
Hymee.

The very high harmonic frequencies the AFSC was putting out probably scared him/hurt his ears so he ran away.

Or he was just scared of what real power sounds like coming out of a AFSC and not the roots, twin screw...ect :mdrmed:

Glyphon wins the prize.

Cheers,
Hymee.

sweet. what's the prize? one of each of your products? :icon16:

why do i get the feeling that it will likely be a swift kick to the asss? :fingersx: :mdrmed:

LOL. Ask RAP and 'Mez. They are supplying the booty :)

Cheers,
Hymee.

Wow- I dont' check this thread for 2-3 weeks and I come back and there seems to be major progress!!! This is outstanding. I have been silently following this thread from the beginning, and frankly was doubting it would ever come to fruition (though it clearly seemed from the start to be the best design out for FI for a rotary)

I have taken rides in Cam and Candy's supercharged 8, and a Greddy tubo'd - so I have had a decent demonstartion for what FI can do for this car. (I liked the Pettit batter than the Greddy, even though it did seem to top out in power early- I just thought the supercharged version "felt" more like the character of the 8 than the Turbo'd did.

As Richard mentioned he thinks the progress is going to ramp up based on actually having a working unit in a car. I can't wait - Richard is the true "American Inventor" - though somehow I don't think the ABC show would have gotten the significance of how this supercharger is better than other designs.

Richard- Maybe you can have a weekly or Bimonthly update posted in the title that people can look for to qucikly get up to date with the progress you are making.

As Richard mentioned he thinks the progress is going to ramp up based on actually having a working unit in a car. I can't wait - Richard is the true "American Inventor" - though somehow I don't think the ABC show would have gotten the significance of how this supercharger is better than other designs.Not only that but the inventor signs over the rights to the invention to participate in the show:

Inventors who advance grant a "one-year exclusive, worldwide option for all rights in your invention to the producers & ABC. In consideration for one million dollars as an advance against royalties, the winning inventor will grant to Producer an exclusive, worldwide perpetual license (with possible right of reversion in the event the invention is not exploited by Producer or its designee after a period of five years) of all rights in the winning invention."

Not only that but the inventor signs over the rights to the invention to participate in the show:

You do get a million $$.

You do get a million $$.Exactly, which is why you're only going to get people who think they have a decent idea that will generate some sales, but not a blockbuster product that would generate a huge amount of revenue.

Richard, (I believe I have this right) But since you are making your own oil filter sandwich plate for the pressure/temp sensor and the oil feed line, have you considered modifiying the end of it to accept a larger oil filter? Bigger is better, no?

Richard, (I believe I have this right) But since you are making your own oil filter sandwich plate for the pressure/temp sensor and the oil feed line, have you considered modifiying the end of it to accept a larger oil filter? Bigger is better, no?


There is no room in there now. The size of the filter is fine, just change it on time.

Erk...ok I was just pm'ing people about buying some new wheels...but I think I'll leave the money in savings now! This is very exciting, way to go RP!

I don't read for a few weeks, and all of a sudden the AF supercharger is mounted, and there is a new engine management guru that has solved all of our EMS voodoo problems! Exciting times, exciting times.

Erk...ok I was just pm'ing people about buying some new wheels...but I think I'll leave the money in savings now! This is very exciting, way to go RP!

I don't read for a few weeks, and all of a sudden the AF supercharger is mounted, and there is a new engine management guru that has solved all of our EMS voodoo problems! Exciting times, exciting times.

you need to get out more...

beers :beer:

Broke up with the girlfriend so time out of the house has somewhat decreased. However, I have seen a direct correlation to the amount of money still in my bank account.

RP The older 13Bs had an area in the foward housing that you could drill and tap for an oil return. I would think this engine would have the same thing. It was there on the older engines for the posibility of mazda adding a turbo. I would think this would be better than tapping into the oil pan.

John

RP The older 13Bs had an area in the foward housing that you could drill and tap for an oil return. I would think this engine would have the same thing. It was there on the older engines for the posibility of mazda adding a turbo. I would think this would be better than tapping into the oil pan.

John


That would be nice but getting the housing on the mill requires taking the engine apart. I don't think that the avarage buyer is wanting to go through that.
Drilling and taping in place would put chips in the engine.
We are going to be building an engine from scratch with porting so we will look into it on that engine.

RP,

It is simply GREAT that you finally have a running vehicle with the AFSC installed.

I have learned a LOT from this thread, and look very much forward to hearing how the FM stuff is sorted out.

Thanks to RP, RG, Hymee and Swoop for all the tech!

RP The older 13Bs had an area in the foward housing that you could drill and tap for an oil return. I would think this engine would have the same thing. It was there on the older engines for the posibility of mazda adding a turbo. I would think this would be better than tapping into the oil pan.

John
The front housing was tapped for the oil source not the return. The return was in the front cover.

is there an ETA on this supercharger?

Hey Richard,

I know Scott is going to be tuning you AFS with an Interceptor, but I was wondering if you are going to do that at the dyno the same day as the rest of us? I can't stay long, but I would really like to see the results first hand.

Hey Richard,

I know Scott is going to be tuning you AFS with an Interceptor, but I was wondering if you are going to do that at the dyno the same day as the rest of us? I can't stay long, but I would really like to see the results first hand.


No, we are using our own dyno on Fri. I might drive down there on Sat just to see what is going on. But not sure of my time yet.

ETA? well I just came from the pattern maker for the intake manifold and I don't think we will have those for two months. We are going to start making compressors as soon as we get to the new shop. That should be about three weeks from now. That's as much as I can tell you now.

After we get the tune up worked out we will start taking names for a priority list.

Kick'in ass and taking names :)

No, we are using our own dyno on Fri. I might drive down there on Sat just to see what is going on. But not sure of my time yet.

ETA? well I just came from the pattern maker for the intake manifold and I don't think we will have those for two months. We are going to start making compressors as soon as we get to the new shop. That should be about three weeks from now. That's as much as I can tell you now.

After we get the tune up worked out we will start taking names for a priority list.Even at 2 months out minimum, that's fantastic news.
Good work and good luck with tuning. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with and I'm really anticipating the power curve.

Are you planning to do 2 different kits, IE a basic kit with just the AFSC, piping and tuning followed by an advanced kit that might integrate an intercooler and run different gearing allowing more CFM?

well like a long no seen college buddy---here I am again! Aint bumming a beer or a place to sleep over either.
Been following from the get go on this project. I posted (i think) on the 1st or 2nd page of this 3000+ page thread. I really liked this idea. Now I can see why. Congrats Sirs! Hard work and persistance. True Grit!
Hope you can solve the siamese exhaust port problem when you start working from bare bones.
I do strongly recommend differant coils. MM has a conversion write up on that. May save you a head ache.
Do I get a "long term supporter" discount or do I tell the wife i will be working at Hooters again to earn enough money to buy that "shiney thing that Richard made":)
I never will get through with this damn car hahahahahaha!
olddragger

RP you must have made these for him :lol2:

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-Jet-powered-bat-suit.wmv

...wow?

well I just decided on my birthday ( oct ) or christmas present this year :)

he is crazier than I am.

Well keep us posted Richard. My warranty is up, and I should have some play money this summer, and a car aching to be played with!

i don't know if any one has posted this before but to reduce particle of metal pieces in the engine a magnet on the oil filter helps (the jet rocks :rock: )

Some pics from Richard of work and ideas on the front volutes:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76996&stc=1

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76997&stc=1

Cheers,
Hymee.

Don't let him get too "artsy" on us...just make him work :D:

Not guilty, Dana did it. He says something about '30's airplane cowls.

I don't care, I just want to get the excess metal off. Wittle away.

Not guilty, Dana did it. He says something about '30's airplane cowls.

I don't care, I just want to get the excess metal off. Wittle away.


Ja, but you already told us it was 12 lbs. right?

Next thing you know it will be 10 lbs.

Not guilty, Dana did it. He says something about '30's airplane cowls.

I don't care, I just want to get the excess metal off. Wittle away.

Tell Dana that it looks sharp. :)

you gonna build me a really big one when i do your motor? :D:

you gonna build me a really big one when i do your motor? :D:


I'm gonna call you on the phone right now. I need to get it out of the shop, we're moving Thursday. I'm not sure how big I can make it 'cause it wouln't package.
I've been trying to figure it out for Bonniville this Aug.

i still like my original idea of using one blowing into an intercooler, then having that shoot into the intake of the other one and squirting fuel into it for the homoginization.

but if you want that motor done before august, i need it ASAP!! i've got a few gargantuacon projects going on right now and on yours, i wanna flow test everything and make new sleeves. that's gonna take time.

I've been trying to figure it out for Bonniville this Aug.

:rock: :rock: :rock: :ylsuper: :ylsuper: :ylsuper:

Wittle away.

Very clever, Sir Frank! BTW - Is it spelt "Whittle"?? :duck:

Cheers,
Hymee.

Very clever, Sir Frank! BTW - Is it spelt "Whittle"?? :duck:

Cheers,
Hymee.


You're asking me how to spell sumpton.

I think you are right but you're the only one who got it anyway.
Now that he gave it away, anyone else out there get it?

brittish chap, jet engines????

beers :beer:

In the U.S. its spelled "wittle" as in "Cut a wittle bit off here, cut a wittle bit off there."

Personally, I like the cowling look. Gives it an "art deco" sort of look. To go one further, maybe a scalloped look like the front of the Sprit of St. Louis, to pay tribute from one pioneer to another. :)
http://www.sandiegohistory.org/timeline/images/lindbergh.jpg

I'd call what we have now "scalloped." The Lindbergh cowl was "engine turned".
This finish was a popular art deco item (as you note) and was used on dashboards of expensive cars. Notably the Dusy and other '30's high enders. Then in the late '50's it reappered on Studebaker "hawk" series.
I used it on Wilts car but then the upolstory guy not knowing what it was, glued some leather on it. That is how it remains today in the NBA Hall.

It is now used in the Bentley Continental GT.

The Whittle we talk about is a person.
A wittle off here, a wittle off there is a duck, as in Daffy.

Richard are your packaging issues with the blower of the "project" engine the fact that it the blower needs to be too large in diameter or too long in length? If it just needs to be longer, how about doing a side exit similar to the inlet layout?

Richard are your packaging issues with the blower of the "project" engine the fact that it the blower needs to be too large in diameter or too long in length? If it just needs to be longer, how about doing a side exit similar to the inlet layout?


The "big" problem stems from wanting to run it at Bonniville which is 4300 Ft Elv.
That's about a 15% loss. To make up for that I'd like another stage. That makes the unit .700 longer. There isn't enough room there now to make the turn.
Also since this is competition and we can run 100+ fuel I'd like to see 52-55 in hg absolute.
But that much pressure will want for an aftercooler and there is even less room for that.
I do have both problems solved, in my head anyway.

The "big" problem stems from wanting to run it at Bonniville which is 4300 Ft Elv.
That's about a 15% loss. To make up for that I'd like another stage. That makes the unit .700 longer. There isn't enough room there now to make the turn.
Also since this is competition and we can run 100+ fuel I'd like to see 22-25 in hg absolute.
But that much pressure will want for an aftercooler and there is even less room for that.
I do have both problems solved, in my head anyway.


COOL, very COOL.

beers :beer:

So what kind of car do you want to put this in for Bonneville and what class?

So what kind of car do you want to put this in for Bonneville and what class?


A yellow one, that I drive everyday. I don't care what class. I'm only doing it so we can show that you can drive it everyday then to the salt flats, go 175 and drive home.

The Rx8!!!!! what the hell are working with here?

Now go to sleep.

A yellow one, that I drive everyday. I don't care what class. I'm only doing it so we can show that you can drive it everyday then to the salt flats, go 175 and drive home.

The Rx8!!!!! what the hell are working with here?

Now go to sleep.


the king is dead.

the yellow one lives!!!!!

beers :beer:

A yellow one, that I drive everyday. I don't care what class. I'm only doing it so we can show that you can drive it everyday then to the salt flats, go 175 and drive home.

The Rx8!!!!! what the hell are working with here?

Now go to sleep.


i'm trying to break the 200mph mark with my commuter car :D:

hey rp,

could you pm your ups shipping address, i have a box to send to you..

beers :beer:

OK, but no explosives.
Not that I'm against you having fun, but you might hurt the dog.

Swoope, is it under pressure :cool:

Swoope, is it under pressure :cool:

not under pressure... and would never do anything bad to torque... i know what happened when he went missing...

in my world everyone wins...

beers :beer:

If I sent a box, it would require a bottle opener :aroused:

no,

now stop this... richard how many more minutes????

beers :beer:

no,

now stop this... richard how many more minutes????

beers :beer:

Until what? I PM'd you at 6:43
Did I miss something?

no trying to get back on the afs.. how many minutes till it is done... or throw us a video or make cool sounds....

3500 miles till my warranty is gone...

beers :beer:

Maybe I should send bubbly then...

Speaking of Wilt's dashboard and 200 MPH check it out.

http://greyflannelauctions.com/showdetail.cfm?Lot=975&From=951&To=975

Speaking of Wilt's dashboard and 200 MPH check it out.

http://greyflannelauctions.com/showdetail.cfm?Lot=975&From=951&To=975

there's no way they're talkin about the same RP.......!!!!!

This thread is now 2 years old. I've read parts of the thread, but don't have the time to read all of it.

Any chance you can edit your first post with updates? That would keep everyone in the loop.

I'm interested in hearing how this is coming along, if the target price from 2004 still stands, and an ETA on it's release.

Thanks

its running in the car for the past 2 weeks or so. pics ar e a few pics back. richard is moving his shop to a new location,

Speaking of Wilt's dashboard and 200 MPH check it out.

http://greyflannelauctions.com/showdetail.cfm?Lot=975&From=951&To=975



Richard.. I have got to add this to your site...

Yes they are.
Same guy, I've noted about it before but there is no impact like pictures.
In fact I took three of the pictures shown on that black page.

Richard.. I have got to add this to your site...


Go ahead but there are some wrong statments in there. The main one is that there is no supercharger on that engine. That engine was only fot testing the car. The real engine was over 700 HP and has been seen on this thread before. It is the one on the engine stand with the Sc and one GM T/B and one side open without the T/B. The engine in the car is still built from very good parts. It has full dry sump, Summers Bros gear drive and main caps. NASCAR rods, Brodex heads, and all the rest of the good parts.

I put the gear drive in it to give it a Euro sound.
The car is geared for 200 MPH at 7600RPM

For me to drive the car I had to take the car cover and fold it up to sit on.

Speaking of Wilt's dashboard and 200 MPH check it out.

http://greyflannelauctions.com/showdetail.cfm?Lot=975&From=951&To=975

Wilt claimed to have slept with almost 20,000 women over his lifetime. Seeing this car, I now understand how he achieved those numbers. :naughty:

Add the axial flow supercharger and he could have hit 30K easy. :lol2:

Go ahead but there are some wrong statments in there. The main one is that there is no supercharger on that engine. That engine was only fot testing the car. The real engine was over 700 HP and has been seen on this thread before. It is the one on the engine stand with the Sc and one GM T/B and one side open without the T/B. The engine in the car is still built from very good parts. It has full dry sump, Summers Bros gear drive and main caps. NASCAR rods, Brodex heads, and all the rest of the good parts.

I put the gear drive in it to give it a Euro sound.
The car is geared for 200 MPH at 7600RPM

For me to drive the car I had to take the car cover and fold it up to sit on.

... :bowdown:

That is one badass car!

Richard Paul... god of the automotive world? :D:

Just added it RP...
http://axialflow.com/projects.htm

Wow, havent been to your site in a while Richard. Big change, and it looks great.

Just installed the Inter X without tuning it and still with the large low boost pulley.
Limited to 3.5 psi I can say it makes for a lot nicer car. It's pleasent to drive around even with low boost. I can see that a unit making only this amount of boost might be an option if it were dirt cheap. If it still needed managment olus whatever it cost itself you should get more.

Scott is in So Cal and coming by at lunch time. I will put a smaller pulley on when I have his instrimentation available. Then I might put a smaller one yet, we shall see. I have two sizes smaller with me so we can try those. I can't make any more because the machines are in transite. I have hardly any tool to work with they are somewhere in between shops. This is the worst time to be doing this.

But it is still exciting to finally be driving with boost.

Are you and Scott going to be Dyno tuning it today?

Are you and Scott going to be Dyno tuning it today?


Yes!

SWEET!!!!!!!! :yumyum:

:):):):) weeeeee yeahhh

etc etc

Oooooohhhhhhhhhhh man....................... YES!!! :D:

Wooohooo! :)

Limited to 3.5 psi I can say it makes for a lot nicer car. It's pleasent to drive around even with low boost. I can see that a unit making only this amount of boost might be an option if it were dirt cheap.


If this could be driven safely without management, I bet there are people that would get this as a first step, then later purchasing the $1600 Interceptor to up the boost and power.

If this could be driven safely without management, I bet there are people that would get this as a first step, then later purchasing the $1600 Interceptor to up the boost and power.


I tried that for the last two weeks but the only way to do it was with 101 fuel. Otherwise it would detonate. Plus now with 91 gas and the untuned Inter x it has a lot more performance available. My guess is that the Af and timing are so far off with stock maps that you are just killing yourself and covering up the murder with the 101.

Secret is that lower octane will make more power if it doesn't detonate. So you get the worst of both worlds running 101 just to cover up for to much advance. Not to mention lean, lean, lean. I bet the EGT were plenty high doing what I did.


I think I'll put it on the dyno before I change the pulley just to see what can be had with a low boost set up. Then change to something higher. Like I said I don't hava access to my machines to make the pulleys I might want. Limited to two options for right now, a little smaller and a little smaller then that.

Stand by for a few hours and we will have alot more info.

Oh, okay. Can't wait to see the results Richard!!!

woooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!1

Good Luck! I can't wait to see the numbers.

Best news yet!

RP --
You are saying all the right things -- anxiously awaiting dyno results with the current set-up.

rxeightr where are you in Alabama???.

RP its
:smiley309

Somebody get the Samuel Jackson ready!!!!!!!!!!!!!

X.x

RP --
You are saying all the right things -- anxiously awaiting dyno results with the current set-up.

i don't think he'll be dyno'ing his rx8 today, probably not even tomorrow.

at least that's what i had gathered from a brief conversation i had with someone credible, but i suppose things can always change.

my guess is that you'll have to wait a bit for the actual dyno results... at best, we'll be told about the boost curve, driveability, and that sort of things later today.

*taps foot*
well, i dont really feel like anyone has a right to be impatient, even though this thread has been around for.. ahem... years.. anyway, lol. where's those pics/dynos?
:)

You're right, there will be no dynos today. We have a problem or two with this and that. We have a pulley alignment problem that we need to fix tomorrow. then there is still some intercepter signals that don't seem right. We screwed around with it until it was to late for the dyno shop.
I'll fix the pulleys tomorrow and we will see when we can get dyno'd.

You're right, there will be no dynos today. We have a problem or two with this and that. We have a pulley alignment problem that we need to fix tomorrow. then there is still some intercepter signals that don't seem right. We screwed around with it until it was to late for the dyno shop.
I'll fix the pulleys tomorrow and we will see when we can get dyno'd.Damnit Richard, you're such a tease!
Good luck man. Hopefully you'll get it figured out tomorrow.

Anticipation, anticipation
Is making me late
Is keeping me waiting

Carly Simon


We've waited two years to see what the AFS is capable of. I guess we can wait a couple more days.

These are quickly becoming the good old days (for forced induction). :)

Here's to getting everything sorted out and running strong soon. :beerchug:

the only problem with the SC being actually ready is the pain it will cause me knowng i cant afford it this second...but soon my pretty, soon!

I know everyone is getting excited so let me pose a slightly different scenario just in case. Since this is the first time it's been in a car and tuned, there are 2 possibilities. The first is that it wrks like it should, makes great power and everyone is happy. The second scenario is that we find out that the blower itself is sized wrong for the job at hand which means that it might not make that power that was hoped for. I don't want this to be the case but we need to understand that it is still a possiblity. The possibility exists that Richard would have to go back and redesign the blower for more flow capability. We'll know for sure pretty soon but I still thought that everyone should at least be prepared for any scenario. Everyone is assuming all will go perfect and this leaves room for disappointment if it doesn't go as planned. Hopefuly we'll have some good news soon but if we don't, it isn't the end of the world. It's just back to the drawing board. You have to learn before you can get it right. come on Richard, give us the good news and not the bad!

A flow change should not be that hard since it is all done on a C&C

At least everything else is already intergraded into the car.

If it does come to a blower change it hopefully would be an easy removal & replace job.

It would definitely be a fairly straight forward process if it came down to that.

not much point speculating about stuff that hasnt happened yet, lets just wait for news.....

Cool guys... I can't wait to see some results...

Hopefully it's not like Rotary God said. It won't make much difference to me, since I don't even have an 8, but I can still be excited. ;-)

The AFS is why one reason why I went with nitrous and not the turbo route. If RP gets it all sorted out I may go with the SC and add a little nitrous for the cherry on top. Later this summer I'll crank the shot up to see what the stock engine can handle and if it goes well I'll use boost for track racing and add the nitrous for the drags. My immediate next step is to use my E-Man to control ignition and accomodate the shot.

CRH

I'll settle for any news good or bad. Thankfully RP is starting to put out :)

There's always hope as long as RP doesn't kill himself enjoying the testing too much:)

I hope everything went perfectly. I just like being prepared for any news, just in case.

Well we just got back from Rancho Cucamonga. Wherever that is.
I did some work on the street yesterday with the 5 psi pulley.
There was a problem with the machined legnth of the pulley so it rode off by 1 groove. Therefore there was belt slipage up to a point where the belt would go back on and use all grooves. Driving the car we had no idea what was happening because when the engine was shut off it would return to looking OK.

We couldn't figure out how come there would be no boost up until about 7000 RPM, then it would come on like you just added another enngine. Really wierd.

When I found it I had to shim the pulley out but not having a shop to work out of I just figured a washer I found is about right. It didn't fit the shaft so I had to go over to a freind machine shop who very genorously took down a set up on his CNC lathe and bored the washer to 15mm.

I put the washer in as a spacer and thought it was Ok. Then today when we got to the dyno we could see the belt now going off the other side of the pulley. The washer is to thick. So we had to fight that not knowing when we got repeatable runs because the belt would load and unload. We didn't get on the dyno until after 9:00 or 9:30.

We got some of the fueling done but Scott couldn't stay any longer and I didn't get a chance to try the next pulley size or fix the spacer.

So where are we? Without all the little things being fixed we did see some nice numbers. With 5psi it picked up just about 50HP. 49 to be exact. The best it ever did before was 170 and tonight it showed 219. There was still more to be had but Scott had had enough. The poor guy ran his ass off all day with I don't know how many cars. He was draggen it when he left at 10:30.

So it's up to me for the rest of the tuning and putting on the smaller pulleys. There is only one left to try until my shop can make some more. And a spacer of the right thicness. I havn't studied the charts yet to analize the curves and such to see how we did in the lower ranges. I'll get back to you on that. I'm to tired to even go get them from the car. I'm hungry and in need of a drink.

The poor dog just got fed. Terri went with me and left her Jeep here with the sunroof out and it rained today. You know how sheepskins stink when their wet? Well she insits her seat covers be brought in and dried in the drier. The night is not over.

Now that's better Terri, you may dry your seatcovers (as she gives me a bottle of Remy Martin)

rp,

thanks for the hard work.... tuesday you got mail....

read....

beers :beer:

Richard,

Thanks for the update! I am very interested in your progress and might put in to be on the list for one of the first.

Something that is important to me and many others who like trackdays is the power curve. What does it look like at this point? An Interceptor X Greddy turbo setup feels great and produces a very nice curve when tuned properly, but it falls off on the top end.

I love the top end power! That is my favourite part of this car. Winding it out to redline and then shifting. If I lost the revs I would be bummed. Do you feel your supercharger is going to make a linear increase straight to redline? If not, how could it be accomplished?

What is the torque curve like? I am hoping the power deliver is exactly like stock only on a higher curve.

Thanks for all the work!

I would also like to give a lot of credit to Scott. Having met him, he is a very hard working man and has done a lot for the community. Thanks Scott.

We couldn't figure out how come there would be no boost up until about 7000 RPM, then it would come on like you just added another enngine.

4000 - hmm not much happening
5000 - you sure this things hooked up right?
6000 - hey that '78 Fiat 128 is passing us us! (I know bad joke - a 78 Fiat 128 couldn't get up to the same speed as an RX8 at 6000 rpm in 3rd gear, much less make it up a hill :Freak_ani )
6999 - we'll let's take it back to the shopppwhOOOAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! :ylsuper:

GjG!! On the road!!! 1st Dyno!! this is AWESOME!!!

Working with any of the aftermarket intakes would be a major plus, if possible.

Especially the revi, since I own one ;)

No kidding, that would give me a reason to use my 500$ gift certificate towards a revi.

No kidding, that would give me a reason to use my 500$ gift certificate towards a revi.


Save it for a flywheel.
The kit will have it's own intake. The one on the car is a prototype just so we could get runing. We're thinking CF. how would you like that?

And of course there will be a strut bar in the kit too. Not CF though, 4130.
Would I let you down at this point? The hard part is over. The other things are dressing.

mmm supercharger and flywheeel, you read my mind richard....

Sweeeeet. Even better. Flywheel.

My Precious..

..And of course there will be a strut bar in the kit too. Not CF though, 4130.Will you have the master cylinder brace like the MS bar?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77902&stc=1

I would like to keep my Mazdaspeed strut tower brace at all costs.ditto

MAN!! this are some exciting times :SHOCKED:

rp,

thanks for the hard work.... tuesday you got mail....

read....

beers :beer:


I don't know what you're trying to bribe me for but it could work.
The down side is this stuff could be harmfull as it goes down like water.
Thanks, :40oz: no matter how it hurts, Richard

I don't know what you're trying to bribe me for but it could work.
The down side is this stuff could be harmfull as it goes down like water.
Thanks, :40oz: no matter how it hurts, Richard

rp,

it is all about moderation, excessive moderation.... how was my timing????

you know it is all about the timing!!! i hope it got to you on the downside of the activity....

enjoy, you have earned it...

beers :beer:

I would like to keep my Mazdaspeed strut tower brace at all costs.Same here.

Same here.


You may keep it but you will have to cut some of it away to fit the supercharger.
The better idea if you must keep it is to hang it on the wall in your office.
Smart move would be to sell it and just use the one in the kit.

Three choices, that's nice isn't it?

You may keep it but you will have to cut some of it away to fit the supercharger.
The better idea if you must keep it is to hang it on the wall in your office.
Smart move would be to sell it and just use the one in the kit.

Three choices, that's nice isn't it?
Ouch, that was pretty harsh.

lol

I don't care anymore about keeping it, but can you add the the master cylinder brace like I mentioned to your custom 4130 brace?

CFM is good for you :)

You may keep it but you will have to cut some of it away to fit the supercharger.
The better idea if you must keep it is to hang it on the wall in your office.
Smart move would be to sell it and just use the one in the kit.

Three choices, that's nice isn't it?

what about maybe just adding a billet spacer to raise it just a hair to clear the SC?

Fer crizzz sakes guys, they occupy the same piece of real estate. If I didn't have to supply a new brace I really wouldn't. About that brake brace, I might develop a stand alone one for sale. I have been thinking about it as a product since I found out that it really works, even on the street.

If it will be welded to the brace or not we haven't figured out yet.

Got it - now get back to work and quit replying to our dumb ass requests :)

Got it - now get back to work and quit replying to our dumb ass requests :)

exactly working SC kit first then pretty stuff later...

RP's To Do List:

1) Working Supercharger........CHECK!
2) Finely tuned supercharger......coming very soon.


Thanks for all your hard work on this project RP.

Can't tell from the photo's but I assume there is going to be an intercooler as well or maybe not?

Can't tell from the photo's but I assume there is going to be an intercooler as well or maybe not?

no intercooler needed, this SC is ~80% efficient. That's what makes a axial flow SC so special.

Explain how that stops it from heating up the air.

no intercooler needed, this SC is ~80% efficient. That's what makes a axial flow SC so special. Compress any volume of gas and you get more heat.

True, but if the SC is really that efficient it could, in theory, reduce the mechanical heat from the compressor. Obviously the air will still heat up from compression, but it may not be enough to warrant the need for an IC with the kit.

Good job RP...your SC is still a work in progress...but so far I am one satisfied reader..:)

I can't make you go back to the begining of the thread, it's to long, so:


Heat added to air from compression=YxT1 abs over eff of compressor

Y=Pr^.283-1
So if you have 7.5psi pressure that is Pr1.5
1.5^.283-1=.12
.12x(70+460)=63.6 degrees temp rise with 100% eff
You can't get 100% no way no how, but if you could it would still heat the air this much.
Find the heat rise for given eff, divide by eff.

Therefore if you have 50% eff you put 63.6 over .50 = 127 deg temp rise.
Or 60%= 63.6 over .6=106
50 is good for a roots 60 for a centrifugal and 85 for my axial flow.

So 63.6 over .85=75 temp rise

So while there is temp rise it is under the limits for safe operation of the Rotary.

IC or more correctly AC are not free tools, they have negatives mostly for street engines. The add complications, weight and cost. It take pressure away to push air through the radiator. Use them when you have to and not just to say you have one. I think somewhere in this thread RotaryGod has given you a lecture on how the IC can add heat to your street engine. I'm sure he will give it again if you ask nice.


As long as we are doing math I'll give yo something else. HP to compress air.
lbs/sec x T delta X .3395 = HP to work the air. To that you must add the external loss. Like bearings, gears, belt drive and more.

So .5lbs X 75 X .3395 is 12.73
.5 X 127 X .3395 = 21.5

It doesn't matter if you take the HP from a belt or the exhause or an electric motor or a steam engine in the trunk that's what it takes.
BTW I just took .5 lbs/sec out of the air it doesn't mean anything. It could be close but not exact.

Edit: For a stock unblown Rx8 it is .5/sec. How about that, I just guessed. For a blown engine it is .5 X the density ratio. The density ratio is dependent upon the heat of the gas. Dr=Pr x T1 over T2
So if you have 75 + 530=605
560 over 605=.87
1.5 x .87=1.3
x .5=.65 lbs/sec
.65x75x.3395=16.5 HP to compress the air with 85% eff

I'll let you figure out the other blowers

Let's just pack the boost pipe in ice then.

153 mph not bad... what's it gotta do with the SC?

Wow, wrong thread, deleting...

I edited 3295 with some more numbers.
But I just did another one. Using the Dr of 1.3 times the original HP of my car at 170 it comes out 221. We got 219. That shows that the additional air was of more value because all the drains were taken by the original air.

All this can be adjusted for this and that but it is a better predictor then using Pr or just psig. Use the Dr now that you know how to get it, to estimate HP when FI.

But wait we were only running 5psi for the dyno runs?????????? Guess I got something from the tuning.

So, wait... only 219 horsepower? :(

So, wait... only 219 horsepower? :(

...


...we were only running 5psi for the dyno runs

So, wait... only 219 horsepower? :(

That's with only 5 psi. And using my prior math that is good power increase.
50hp from 5psi. It'll get more boost when we find some tuning bugs we have. It has nothing to do with the sc, it always had some problems since it was new.

I have a great idea - put it on my car :)

you want his low power stock engine/bad intake in your car Kevin?

LOL - no, but I know my engine is strong from the factory - no isuues yet, except going up Mt. St. Helens on the 13th under heavy load the car acted up like I had a compression brake applied. Let off the gas, and everything retuned to normal. Hasn't done it since - weird.

That's with only 5 psi. And using my prior math that is good power increase.
50hp from 5psi. It'll get more boost when we find some tuning bugs we have. It has nothing to do with the sc, it always had some problems since it was new.


we can always "test" a unit in my renesis-beater :)

50hp a 5psi sounds pretty good to me. Is this with a completely stock exhaust system? I thought you had the hymee muffler, or did you have that and more?

Doh! Wrong thread

We have the Hymee catback everything else is stock. Well, we do have someones shifter kit installed. No decals. I do have Hymees decal hidden in the glove box.
But it's written in Australian, no one would understand it anyway. :rollingla :rofl:

RP:
Are you going to tune your system for a max of 5psi or are you going for more?

Thanks
Divi

We are searching for a safe limit for the street driven Rx8.
Right now we are driving around with 6psi. It will get more soon.
We have to solve a problem that this car has always had but gets worse as we add pressure. It has nothing to do with the blower itself, it's in the car. And has been since it was new. :mad:

We are not looking for big dyno numbers, just what will give a good driving car with safe operation. We want to hold the saftey factor within reason. There is no limit for axial flow pressure but there is for your engine.
We don't want blown engines all over the place like some out there now.

Does the power curve feel similar to what is stock only more of it? That is what I would like more than anything.

But it's written in Australian, no one would understand it anyway. :rollingla :rofl:
Hold it up to a mirror. You'll be able to read it just fine.

Hold it up to a mirror. You'll be able to read it just fine.


Funny guy. Give me a call I have a question about that motor on the intake we talked about a long time back. I still think the problem is in there. Why don't I have your phone number, or do I?

The power curve does follow stock but it compounds, meaning the spread in power gets wider as you go up. That is do to the linier boost curve of axial flow.
In fact it did something I never saw on piston engines, it made the torque peak move up. I'm not sure if that is going to hold true when we finish tuning and adjusting boost.

have fred call me too and maybe i can come down and we'll bang heads on it.

yea I may not be able to bang heads with you guys... but I can be in charge of lunch..:)..while listening....ha ha

yea I may not be able to bang heads with you guys... but I can be in charge of lunch..:)..while listening....ha ha

Probably, 'cause he doesn't look like he has missed to many lunches. :yumyum: :rofl:
(For you guys who haven't met him, he's one big happy caribbean man.)
You know that green guy in the movies who you don't want to make mad?

Okay so once people have this installed, will they be able to choose different pulleys for different levels of boost? If so, how high will this particular unit go before it becomes inefficient?

Green guy can be two people, the incredible hulk....or SHREK!

Take your pic :-p

Should I ask about tuning or... is it a secret or "wait and see"? I know that you originally wanted an ECU flash, but... developments in that area are ??? to none, and you are testing an Int-X right now. Just a little curious what this setup is going to look like.

Beautiful work thus far... can't wait to see what you can get once you have a properly running car.

Should I ask about tuning or... is it a secret or "wait and see"? I know that you originally wanted an ECU flash, but... developments in that area are ??? to none, and you are testing an Int-X right now. Just a little curious what this setup is going to look like.

Beautiful work thus far... can't wait to see what you can get once you have a properly running car.

he is working with the ceptorx.... scott was just out in cali.... tuned a bunch of turbos...

everyone wins.


beers :beer:

Thanks Swoope.

With no other complete option... I suppose you're right. That $1,600 just hurts though.

hurts less than a blown motor.

To be a tad flippant... hurts even less just to buy a faster car or one with better aftermarket support (or stay NA).

I've never knocked the Int-X as being a bad product. Just a bit pricey... particularly when all you want is a plug and play system (which is what both Richard and Pettite are after)...

It really does suck that the aftermarket for Mazdas in general (except for the RX-7) seems so poor. Subarus... great. Mitsubishi (DSM or Evo)... great. Mustang... amazing. GTO... great. Hell... VW GTI... great. All of them have flash tuner solutions (yes... multiple) already on the market. Oh well... c'est la vie...

Sorry for the thread jack.

It really does suck that the aftermarket for Mazdas in general (except for the RX-7) seems so poor. Subarus... great. Mitsubishi (DSM or Evo)... great. Mustang... amazing. GTO... great. Hell... VW GTI... great. All of them have flash tuner solutions (yes... multiple) already on the market. Oh well... c'est la vie...

Sorry for the thread jack.

You forgot the best Mazda sport car ever....MX-5/Miata. That car has a ton of aftermarket support.

From what I have read, in the future most ECU's will become tougher and tougher to crack. They will control just about every aspect of the vehicle, I wonder if the days of flash tunes are over.

^ Doh! How coulf I forget the Miata/MX-5... we'll see if it stays that way with the new one (in terms of power/engine mods).

I wonder if the days of flash tunes are over.

no they are not

agreed... only getting better. Check out the MkV GTI (really any VAG car) and Legacy GT or the new Mustang to see. These cars' ECU has been cracked open wide and any kind of mod is possible... not just engine tuning! The best has yet to come...

This thread is getting just a little.... :offtopic:
Keep up the GREAT work Richard. Can't wait to see this thing cruising around the streets of So Cal.

the more the ECU controls, the more flash tuning will allow.....

It will just take longer to crack and sort out initially thats all.....

the more the ECU controls, the more flash tuning will allow.....

It will just take longer to crack and sort out initially thats all.....


the ecu controls all..... do you not know that.... it is not different in the uk....

yes flash tuning will do what it will do. but no one is there yet..

beers :beer:

:ban: :offtopic: Wow I missed a lot.. RP I want to be hulk with a tad of shreck. ha ha. whole weekend I dreamt of that SC. I even called my G.F. SC in the middle of the action.. I had a lot of explaining to do...after she asked me [who the hell is "super charger"]

Thank you RP. I won’t hurt a fly…never been in a fight my whole life..


ohhhh Jedi54 and I will be incharge of lunch...sorry jedi54 we have to get in which ever way we can.. :o:

still nothing for you rx8 guys?

I wouldn't say this thread is nothing, nor many of the others. The RX-8 is just an exercise in patience. It took a while for RX-7 aftermarket support to get going also. People that are newer to the RX-7/rotary market are spoiled by the mass aftermarket support for the 7, that once wasn't there in the FD's initial years.

IC or more correctly AC are not free tools, they have negatives mostly for street engines. They do have negatives, as does a supercharger, but I don't know anyone that want to heat all the air going into their engine an extra 75 degrees. Run a renesis on a 60 degree day and run it on an 80 degree day and there is a perceptable difference.

His point was that if you use an intercooler that has say a 1.5 psi pressure drop but you are only running 6 psi total, that extra 1.5 psi that the blower needs to produce to overcome that loss will also create more heat (which gets cooled down by the intercooler) and that at low levels this can potentially offset or cancel the gains of having the intercooler. He knows that there is a point above which you need an intercooler. You just don't always need one depending on what you are doing. For his needs, any benefit that one may provide could be small and since the throttleplate is before the blower he didn't want to affect throttle response. Remember this isn't a kit designed to give real high numbers. It's made to a nice streetable system that provides a nice gain over stock. Much like Pettit's goal.

They do have negatives, as does a supercharger, but I don't know anyone that want to heat all the air going into their engine an extra 75 degrees. Run a renesis on a 60 degree day and run it on an 80 degree day and there is a perceptable difference.


Ahh yes, but if the 80 degree day you were running at 2000 feet below sea level, which would be the faster run???
What if on the 60 degree day you had to draw your intake through a restriction such as a radiator which run would be faster then?
And what if you had been idling in traffic before the run and radiator heat had transfered to you inlet radiator? What temp would you intake air be then?

And how good does your bank account look with the $1000 deduction. Next how much fun is it working on the car with all that extra plumbing runing everywhere. What if your extra HP had to pull around all the extra weight? Which car would feel faster then?

All that isn't to say that an AC wouldn't be helpfull under some conditions. Like real race conditions with high boost. Real race being the active words.
I want to say "I've been there and done that" but I wouln't. :mdrmed:

We got to that one at the same time.

Yes, and as you've pointed out before I type a little slower then you!

There is some theory that a hotter charge of air produces less condensation of the gas being introduced and thus makes the charge more efficient resulting in better gas mileage and more power for the same density of air.

John

Assuming there is no pre-detonation form the hotter induction temp

I could see how a hotter intake charge with the same mass flow as a cool one would effectively cause the fuel to atomize more; getting a better burn creating higher combustion pressures. Plus adding an intake charge again with the same mass as a cool one but at a higher temperature more energy is being inputted into the system through the system boundary.


Key point being that there is a point where the intake temp (regardless of the mass flow) would become a problem.

I would imagine that proper fuel injector operation would have more to do with adequate atomization than a 20 degree difference in ambient air temp.

CRH

Ok-- all in all --after much wait and 2 birthdays (not complaining here)--how close is this package to marketing? General price range? will it be a 5K package--7K package--know you cant commit to a price--and that you have all along been concerned about the cost , marketed with differant pulleys for individuals preferref boost?, include new heat range of sparkplugs in package etc.
I have to tell the wife if we are buying a family jet ski or I am getting this thing for my car. She may have to up her medication depending on the decision, or I may have to up mine depending on how much she hurts me.
olddragger

Approximately at what TPS% will the AFSC have sufficient mass flow in to start to making boost pressure.

His point was that if you use an intercooler that has say a 1.5 psi pressure drop but you are only running 6 psi total, that extra 1.5 psi that the blower needs to produce to overcome that loss will also create more heat (which gets cooled down by the intercooler) and that at low levels this can potentially offset or cancel the gains of having the intercooler. He knows that there is a point above which you need an intercooler. You just don't always need one depending on what you are doing. For his needs, any benefit that one may provide could be small and since the throttleplate is before the blower he didn't want to affect throttle response. Remember this isn't a kit designed to give real high numbers. It's made to a nice streetable system that provides a nice gain over stock. Much like Pettit's goal.

Ok, lets just not give the impression that we are violating PV=nRT just because we are a bit more efficient which I think some people posting on the thread seem to believe. More pressure means higher temps unless you increase volume or reduce the amount of gas.

There is some theory that a hotter charge of air produces less condensation of the gas being introduced and thus makes the charge more efficient resulting in better gas mileage and more power for the same density of air.Only because colder air tends to hold slightly more moisture. In this case that wouldn't make any sense as there isn't anywhere in the intercooler for the additional mosture to magically appear after the air is cooled back down unless you install a humidifier in your intercooler. Or unless there is a lot of water in the gasoline and then better gasoline is in order.

Honestly though if this is supposed to be a reliable steetable (what's that mean anyway?) application I would think keeping the charge temps as low as you can would be the best bet. To me if anything the renesis seems to run hot already.

Not that I'm trying to argue, I'm just trying to find the best product for what I want to do with the car. I'm just not sure that this solution and pettit's provide enough. Last thing I want to do is go through all the trouble and then be underwelmed. I'm not really all that concerned with cost, if I was I would be driving a stock civic.

Ok-- all in all --after much wait and 2 birthdays (not complaining here)--how close is this package to marketing? General price range? will it be a 5K package--7K package--know you cant commit to a price--and that you have all along been concerned about the cost , marketed with differant pulleys for individuals preferref boost?, include new heat range of sparkplugs in package etc.
I have to tell the wife if we are buying a family jet ski or I am getting this thing for my car. She may have to up her medication depending on the decision, or I may have to up mine depending on how much she hurts me.
olddragger

I'll save you the reading.

Price, Noone will know that until richard has a production unit done. all molding and accessories ( new sway bar, piping etc are finalized ) still need to be ironed out. Right now we have a prototype only, a new intake needs to be done, and the pulley problem needs to be fixed and ECU needs to be decided. Richard would like a flash, but we might have to end up using an interceptor or something else and that will change the price. Right now on the prototype he's using an interceptor.

Once the basics are done then we'll do tweaking. a pulley change and retune would be all that is need to increase boost. Even if richard doesn't support it, it can be done.

As far as a timeline for when it's coming. richard said it'd be close to the end of this year for earliest production... sometime in the last quarter

[QUOTE=Umbra] More pressure means higher temps unless you increase volume or reduce the amount of gas.

??????????? You want to explain that one to me.





Honestly though if this is supposed to be a reliable steetable (what's that mean anyway?) application I would think keeping the charge temps as low as you can would be the best bet. To me if anything the renesis seems to run hot already.





Not always true for a street car. Smokey Yunick built that homoginazation engine with super heat in the inlet tract by using the exhaust to heat it. It made more response and higher milage then anything else ever did. The onl mode where he cooled the intake back down to normal was the WOT usage.

The better you can homoginize the fuel the more even the burn. Higher pressure means less boiling of the gasoline. Higher temp mean faster boiling. There's always a trade off. Finding the balance is the goal of every power plant engineer. So what do you want to use the engine for.

If you only drove on the salt flats with WOT then you want the coolest charge you can get. In that case it is practical to cool the charge with a limited total loss medium. Like dry ice or freon. This is unusable on the street.

If you drive in traffic all day you would benifit from the opposite. You have to find a balance. BTW why do you still have the hot water flowing around your throttle body if you're so concerned with intake heat? I know you do, with out looking.

At what TP will it make pressure?

At the point where you ask for more power then would be available NA.

Ok, lets just not give the impression that we are violating PV=nRT just because we are a bit more efficient which I think some people posting on the thread seem to believe.
Who gave the impression that we are violating PV=nRT? It wasn't me. If you were trying to say there was an issue with my post, let me elaborate since it is correct. The example I used assumes 6 psi. Insert a number. Lets say that he intends to boost the engine to 6 psi. You are saying that cooler is better. If we insert an intercooler into the system and change nothing else, there will be a pressure drop. I used the number 1.5 psi. That means that the engine is only receiving 4.5 psi at the same blower speed. Ah but it's cooler air you say. In order to get that pressure drop back, we need to increase the speed of the blower. Now it needs to make 7.5 psi at the outlet to make 6 at the engine. That adds heat back into the system as the blower is working harder. Does this mean that without an intercooler it would make more horsepower than with one with the blower working harder? Not necessarily. The less boost you intend to run, the less important the intercooler becomes until you eventually get to a point where there is no point in using one and it is hurting you. As power increases, the need for an intercooler also increases. The point is that at the boost levels he intends to run, the benefit to having an intercooler is very little if at all. If it adds several hundred dollars to the kit price and you get 5 more horsepower out of it from cooler air, was it worth it? You be the judge of that. Also consider the fact that throttle response will slow down with an intercooler. As was already stated, there comes a point where you need an intercooler. With his intended use, it isn't necessary.

At what TP will it make pressure?

At the point where you ask for more power then would be available NA.


well that did not help :mdrmed: :mdrmed:

the reason I ass is I am looking at the Greddy E management ultimate to control the Computer when the ASFS goes on + there is the option to add supplemental injectors with that system AKA Extra injectors before the compressor and they come on during boost conditions and help cool the incoming air charge and since it is now going through the compressor was and get some extreme A/F mixing going on.

well that did not help :mdrmed: :mdrmed:

the reason I ass is I am looking at the Greddy E management ultimate to control the Computer when the ASFS goes on + there is the option to add supplemental injectors with that system AKA Extra injectors before the compressor and they come on during boost conditions and help cool the incoming air charge and since it is now going through the compressor was and get some extreme A/F mixing going on.


Forget the Emanage, we have something a whole bunch better coming your way.

But if you insist, what I said is true. When you put enough throttle in to where the engine reach the point of zero manifold that is where you can go unblown. In fact unblown you don't even get to "zero" it will always have some negative pressure. Say an inch of Hg. So if it says 0 on the gage you are actually making more power then you were NA.

Where in TP does this happen, I don't know. It happens different places at different RPM.

well that did not help :mdrmed: :mdrmed:

the reason I ass is I am looking at the Greddy E management ultimate to control the Computer when the ASFS goes on + there is the option to add supplemental injectors with that system AKA Extra injectors before the compressor and they come on during boost conditions and help cool the incoming air charge and since it is now going through the compressor was and get some extreme A/F mixing going on.

Pardon my frankness, but if you are going to use some form of management, and you want to know "what TPS boost comes on" and tuning based on that, I can't help but think things might quickly turn to tears. The fuelling and ignition requirements are not soley TPS based or RPM based. For a NA application, RPM and TPS can be used, but for FI applications manifold pressure and RPM are main drivers.

Richards answer is acutally quite right. Boost comes on when you ask for more than atmospheric - via the throttle.

Cheers,
Hymee.

The RX-8 has three injectors, and can handle a very wide range of fueling needs. I think even the people runnin 300 whp are using stock injectors. The three injectors are also staged, which means that at certain load and rpm levels, the next injector will start to take over the previous one. The larger injectors are farther out, which will help cool the intake charge, just like you said.

I'm not positive, but I am thinking that using an injector before the AFSC won't be possible. It's not like a postive displacement SC, and (I think) would be more like a centrifugal or turbo in that regard.

T

I'm not positive, but I am thinking that using an injector before the AFSC won't be possible. It's not like a postive displacement SC, and (I think) would be more like a centrifugal or turbo in that regard.


It's just been exactly 50 years now that axial flow supercharging has used fuel through it with great results. (see June '56 Hot Rod magazine for first test of Latham Axial Flow supercharger) All the Lathams that I built up until 1989 were with carbs before the blower.
There is also a case to be made for injecting the EFI before the blower. See my paper on Holley EFI and homoginization somewhere around page 5 of this thread.
This was a test with both port injection and before the blower compared.

Turbos and centrifugal are the same compressors. They don't do well with fuel in them because they centrifuge it out of mixture, making it worse.
Roots don't do well but are acceptable for some crude applications like drag racing. And hot rods.

Read the aforementioned paper and report back.

Page 3 post 33. wait I'll try and bring in the shortcut trick.
http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19452
Read the whole post also. Read post 34, 36, 37, 38 and their attachments. This will answer your gas law questions.

The RX-8 has three injectors, and can handle a very wide range of fueling needs. I think even the people runnin 300 whp are using stock injectors. The three injectors are also staged, which means that at certain load and rpm levels, the next injector will start to take over the previous one. The larger injectors are farther out, which will help cool the intake charge, just like you said.

I'm not positive, but I am thinking that using an injector before the AFSC won't be possible. It's not like a postive displacement SC, and (I think) would be more like a centrifugal or turbo in that regard.

Try 6 injectors.

It's just been exactly 50 years now that axial flow supercharging has used fuel through it with great results.



think i'd have good results pissing methanol into it?

think i'd have good results pissing methanol into it?


You keep drinking that stuff :puke: and it will probably burn, but I don't know what A/F you'd run it at. :rollingla

At least we wont see the flames. :)

BTW - Speaking of methanol and fuel homogenization... The other day at the drags we had a stuck relay or something with the fuel injectors when trying to start the 20B drag racing engine. The raw fuel coming out of the turbo dump pipe showed how well a rotary engine works as a fuel pump! LOL. BTW - The problem was rectified.

You keep drinking that stuff :puke: and it will probably burn, but I don't know what A/F you'd run it at. :rollingla


fear not, i have adequit control devices for just such a thing. i think help from the meth is about the only way we're gonna see a reliable 400whp out of the renny on pump gas.

fear not, i have adequit control devices for just such a thing. i think help from the meth is about the only way we're gonna see a reliable 400whp out of the renny on pump gas.

what's your defination of reliable? a DD? meth injection <> DD. Maybe mix with E85 would make sense?

i like meth injection. you can use pump gas and everything is normal until you step on the gas...then you only use what you need. e85 would kill the fuel economy, as well as you'd have to inject a lot more in for the same amount of power. meth is an overall more economical choice for people like me.

The problem with methanol injection is that, since it is a highly corrosive fuel, it requires certain steps be taken and maintenance schedules to be accepted as a side-effect. Depending on where the meth is injected you may have to look forward to throttle body, intake manifold, and fuel injector o-rings to be changed quite often, along with the injection system itself. I think until we get to the point of maximizing the power potential with pump gas, meth is a waste of time and money.

CRH

i understand where a lot of you guys are coming from with everything being in baby steps n whatnot, but imma crank up the boost once i get the renny in the first gen. since the alcohol is kept in its own system and only used under boost at higher rpm, its very unlikely it'll corrode or wear anything out anytime soon.

and i have no intention of running right up to the ragged edge of pump gas--that's just asking for trouble. the meth will increase the octane rating and give a nice safety cusion.

The Evo8 guys, as I understand it, have to replace seals and o-rings every two years when using the meth systems. I remember when I first talked about using nitrous I got a lot of flak from people who thought I was gonna "blow my engine" and so forth. I got those messages from all different types and pointed out that the only people who wreck their engines on nitrous are either full-out racers pushing their engines to the extreme as part of competition or idiots who didn't know what detonation sounded like and kept their foot on the gas during knocking and nitrous use. My point is, with careful tuning and sharing of information we can all figure out what kind of boost pressures or other h.p. increases the Renesis can handle before problems arise. Testing the internal mechanicals has always been a partial goal of mine with the nitrous stuff and that's why I have always shared my results and stories with everyone. Since we are only now getting a handle on the PCM issue I would wait before strapping more stuff under the hood that adds to the number of variables that could go wrong. Besides, I have already shared my own stories that indicate the level of abuse the Renesis can handle without trouble. If they haven't empowered people to be more confident about this engine I don't know what else to say!

CRH

i get what you're saying, but i play with my own toys differently than others.

Cool. After I posted that last comment I was hoping you woundn't take it mean that I thought you were among the "idiots". Quite the contrary, I think you know what you are doing and that's why I would encourage you to experiment with pump gas. After seeing some 12:1 and 13:1 comp. ratio engines run on pump gas I think the Renesis has a little headroom to play with. I figure nitrous is a good way to see what kind of housing pressures the Renesis can handle with stock rotors and pump gas. Plus, it's cheaper than a whole FI system. Any mere "coincidence" that the GReddy kit, along with most other bolt-on FI kits are limited to the same level of h.p. increase that we find with nitrous systems?

BTW, g.j., what is your specific philosophy in the play you play with your toys? I ask this in a serious way to get a litttle input from you.

CRH

i didn't take insult at all--i know what you meant.

for what the renny can handle... it's probably going to be similar to the previous engines, as far as total hp goes. the compression ratio is the only thing i'm worried about in the pump gas department.

with premium gas @ 3ggl and 100/110 octane race gas only $5/g better off just running the straight race gas, or diluting with toluene or xylene

reguarding the thread topic - as Red 5 would say, "Stay on target, stay on target" Jedi do you get it?

with premium gas @ 3ggl and 100/110 octane race gas only $5/g better off just running the straight race gas, or diluting with toluene or xylene


i think you're missing the point of metanol injection. i can run 87 octane and save $.20 per gallon and have the meth active only under boost at higher rpm's. why waste money on high-octane fuel when 90% of the time, you're just cruising.

reguarding the thread topic - as Red 5 would say, "Stay on target, stay on target" Jedi do you get it?
haha, I love it! Haven't heard that quote in a long time. :)

hey, i was semi on-target since imma steal an a/f from richard when i drop his motor off.

just dont steal Torque. Torque went missing when Hymee was there

richard is the only rotary owner with torque :p:

richard is the only rotary owner with torque :p:

Beg pardon :P

Me were first. Then Wildcard. :rock: :rock:

...colder air tends to hold slightly more moisture.
No, colder air holds less moisture since vapor pressure goes down. Vapor pressure is directly dependant on temperature. So, hotter air can take more moisture. This is also why water injection can cool down the intake charge significantly (since water takes energy from the air in order to evaporate and reach its according vapor pressure at that temperature).
Which btw might be a nice alternative to other intercooling options, since it doesn't require significant adaptations. In addition you can turn it on or off when you want, so you simply don't intercool when it might hurt power.

Smokey Yunick built that homoginazation engine with super heat in the inlet tract by using the exhaust to heat it. It made more response and higher milage then anything else ever did. The onl mode where he cooled the intake back down to normal was the WOT usage.
I believe it wasn't just homogenization that made this concept more efficient:
1. By heating the intake charge you can also reduce pumping losses. Hotter air is less dense, so you need to open the throttle more to let the same amount of air pass. (And a higher throttle setting reduces pumping losses.)
2. Hotter air will also accelerate the combustion speed (even if it is not homogenized in the first place). And more pressure at TDC equals less pressure when the exhaust port opens and therefore less loss (=higher efficiency).

Just my $0.02

Chalk one up to Down Under! Early adopters of rotaries, plenty of firsts and fastest! :mdrmed:

Beg pardon :P

Me were first. Then Wildcard. :rock: :rock:

Beg pardon :P

Me were first. Then Wildcard. :rock: :rock:


i wasn't referring to the blower, i was talking about the dog :)

just dont steal Torque. Torque went missing when Hymee was there


Speaking of Torque, do we have any torque numbers yet? ...

p.s. How is good 'ol Torque anyways?

I believe it wasn't just homogenization that made this concept more efficient:
1. By heating the intake charge you can also reduce pumping losses. Hotter air is less dense, so you need to open the throttle more to let the same amount of air pass. (And a higher throttle setting reduces pumping losses.)
2. Hotter air will also accelerate the combustion speed (even if it is not homogenized in the first place). And more pressure at TDC equals less pressure when the exhaust port opens and therefore less loss (=higher efficiency).

Just my $0.02


Pumping losss.......that's something we haven't talked about at all. I'll not go into a RG style lecture here but we should consider it. There was a professor and I can't remember what campus but it might have been in So Cal, like USC or so.

I read about his work and called him because of homginazation but his work really didn't parallel mine in that way. With His it was a byproduct. He had built a throttleless engine controlled by inlet temprature. His gains were from less pumping loss. His work proved the point that it does work.

I don't remember the details but the thing was really mute because power modulation was very slow as you can guess. The only place you could use it would be on a ship where you don't change demand often. Plus you have room to work. Except of course in the harbor, there you can use tugs.

Anyway it was a good grant for the school. Why don't I think of these things?

To sum this up I'll leave one thought. This is why smaller engines get better MPG.
Plus all the internal friction and extra wieght, more frontal area .....Bla Bla Bla.
Just trying to get it out before you do. But everyone forgets the pumping loss.

Lets say that the pumping loss were helped along because there was a more efficient vacuum pump (axial flow) sucking it all in? Would there be some gains at the flywheel? :dunno:

One of the primary reasons that deisel engines get much better fuel economy is that they don't have a throttle plate- they modulate power by modulating fuel delivery.

The fact that you can run near WOT in an airplane all the time and modulate power with altitude also means that their engines can be more efficent overall. My dad gets 25 MPG at 200 MPH in his airplane. Pumping losses are pretty important, and if you can overcome them by getting rid of the throttle plate you can see pretty big efficency gains.

In a gasoline engine with a throttle plate, MAP (manifold absolute pressure) and RPM are what determne power (assuming you are running a standard mixture). You can't boost the pressure in the manifold without increasing HP, which requires more fuel. If you pressurize the area before the throttle plate, you have to close the throttle a bit in order to maintain the same HP. This actually increases overall pumping losses.

Turbos can get higher overall efficency because they recover the energy from the exhaust stream. But something that steals power from the crank won't have this luxury. It seems to me that a blower that pressurizes all the time will have a double hit- the pumping losses will increase, and the blower steals this energy from the crank. I believe this is why lots of street blowers have bypass valves - to prevent a MPG hit when crusing on the highway.

the primary reason for diesel engine's higher overall efficiency is the high static compression ratio, throttle plate and pumping losses are also important

Very good until you get to the last paragraph.

Turbos can get higher overall efficency because they recover the energy from the exhaust stream. But something that steals power from the crank won't have this luxury. It seems to me that a blower that pressurizes all the time will have a double hit- the pumping losses will increase, and the blower steals this energy from the crank. I believe this is why lots of street blowers have bypass valves - to prevent a MPG hit when crusing on the highway.[/QUOTE]



Turbos don't get better efficency, period. Now lets see why, "free power from the exhaust" false. I want you to put an orfice in your butt and then tell me it doesn't take more power to discharge your waste. There is always an orfice in the exhaust on a turbo car. If you think a little restriction doesn't hurt that much then why all those header sales. On top of that how come some with very little difference do better then others.

When you produce pressure in the exhaust system in order to make the compressor side work and make boost there is a byproduct of heat. This heat must go someplace, into the water then into the radiator. It goes out everywhere including the engine compartment. And everywhere else.

The turbo has the same losses from blowing through a TB. It is the same no matter what, they are both superchargers. Yes the blowoff valve helps but it is not the best way. As you stated.

So it seems now that it doesn't matter where you "steal" the power to drive from. A compressor take X power to run and it doesn't care where it comes from. Both ways are parasitic but they return more then they take.

A SC set up with the TB before itself is running in partial vacuum therefore they don't take much power. (drain from gears, bearings, belt drives, seals etc still drain though) In the case of my compressor when running at cruise takes so little that I can't calculate it. I also offer the theory that being a better pump may help the pumping loss.

All in all a good thought on your part. You can't be flamed for buying into the BS that turbos get to recover free drive power. It is not true. Consider the delta between the turbine and compressor. On long range ships they can get good results because they use large turbines. They have no response, it takes miles to get up to power. For lag reduction street turbos use small turbines ans small orfices. These cause backpressure all the time.


I'm tired of typing so I'll go now

BTW, tell us more about your dads magic airplane.
You might be off by 100% fuel used.
But then again there may be things I don't know about flying around.

Most likely he's telling your mom a fib so she thinks it is cheaper than it is.
I used to do that with our boat.

I want you to put an orfice in your butt...


damn we're gonna have fun tomorrow ! :bootyshak

Are you 2 getting a room?

why, you want in on this?

get back to work :bottom: :jerkit: :lol:

:3some:

good god, the old man's even dirtier than i am.
that's just scary

Dave, I don't have my cell phone until tomorrow sometime. We switched companys and now we're switching back. I'll give you a landline by PM.
Note that I usually don't answer it but I will for now.

Hehe, I love all this hot air, I think we need more butt plugs. :rofl:

Contant fuel with less air (hotter air) means less oxygen for combustion which mean less fuel burned. Theoretically of course. Generally adding water to the charge is a cheap way of adding oxygen in addition to cooling.

I thought we were having a discussion here, not an instant flame fest.

My understanding is that turbos get most of their power from heat recovery from the exhaust stream, not the flow. There is a lot of energy to be had in the heat that is in an exhaust stream, and if you measure the temperature before and after the turbo, you'll see that the turbo recovered some of this energy by dropping the temp of the exhaust. This is actually recovering some energy that would otherwise be lost, and helps the efficency of the turbo. It doesn't make the turbo perfect, but it does make it more efficent than a crank driven SC.

I agree that deisels have a lot of effiency things going for them as mentioned, but the lack of partial-throttle pumping losses is one of them for sure.

If you want to really step out of your element and riducle something you know nothing about, and then loook like a uninformed dolt, here's the info you want about small aircraft: My dad's airplane is a Van's Aircraft RV-6. It's a homebuilt plane, with over 3000 of them flying. It uses a Lycoming IO-360 engine, which is 180 HP at sea level. At 164 knots groudspeed @ 12,000 feet it burns about 7.5 GPH when leaned properly. That's 189 MPH, divided by 7.5, gives you 25.2 MPG.

There's nothing magic about it- small, light, well designed aircraft do this every day. If you doubt me, do some searches and you'll see my numbers are pretty common. I'm a pilot as well and spend my days designing engine instrumentation for small aircraft, so I know what performance you can expect. There are even more efficent planes than the RV's if all you are looking for is fuel economy.

In the end when we are talking abut pumping losses, we are discussing low throttle applications like highway cruising. From what I know, this is the situation where most superchargers use a bypass valve to increase economy, and this is because the SC will be pulling energy from the crank that isn't helping the engine at all. Please inform me if I am wrong about the purpose of the bypass valve.

Contant fuel with less air (hotter air) means less oxygen for combustion which mean less fuel burned. Theoretically of course. Generally adding water to the charge is a cheap way of adding oxygen in addition to cooling.

Water injection does not add oxygen to the combustion cycle. If it did, the hydrogen would have to break off, and suddenly you'd have hydrogen and oxygen in seperate molecules. As we all know, hydrogen and oxygen together make a great flame. What's the byproduct of combustion? WATER.

If burning water made H and O2, then the H and O2 would burn and make water. You'd have a perpetual energy machine that would run away and burn up the world.

Water is the lower energy state of H and O2. You have to put energy into it in order to break it apart. If WI broke apart the water, you'd be loosing tons of energy in your engine while spraying.

The purpose of WI is to lower charge temps and reduce detonation. The water turns to steam which lowers the temp, and the water in the cylinder acts as a buffer between the hydrocarbon and oxygen molecules and slows down the flame front, helping to control detonation. Since you gave up some of your energy by helping the water gto to steam, you actually need to burn more fuel in order to get the same HP as before, but the point of WI is not effiency, it's max HP.

but most importantly for the renesis guys, the water cleans off the rotor faces and prevents future detonation.

I
My understanding is that turbos get most of their power from heat recovery from the exhaust stream, not the flow. There is a lot of energy to be had in the heat that is in an exhaust stream, and if you measure the temperature before and after the turbo, you'll see that the turbo recovered some of this energy by dropping the temp of the exhaust. This is actually recovering some energy that would otherwise be lost, and helps the efficency of the turbo.

I have a little exercise for you. Put a turbo in an oven. Does it spin? Now blow cold air through it. Does it spin?

There is a lot of heat in the exhaust system however it isn't the heat that is doing the work on a turbo. It's the flow. Heat plays an important part though in that it affects turbo exhaust wheel/housing sizing. This is because hotter air takes up more space than colder, denser air. The hotter the air is, the larger the turbo's hotside needs to be to flow it efficiently. This is why the rear mounted turbos need smaller exhaust wheels. The exhaust gasses are cooler and take up less space. Even though the turbo is sized differently, based on the temperature and energy present in the exhaust gasses, they are the same restriction to the system from a functional standpoint.

Yes it is true that the turbo helps remove some heat from the exhaust system. It gets absorbed by it and transferred into the oiling system, housings, and in some turbos back into the cars cooling system as not all turbos have coolant lines on them. It also radiates this heat back into the engine bay. None of it gets used to make power. Only the flow does that.

Your dad's plane sounds pretty cool. There are many rotary powered RV8's flying around and yes I agree that they do get the mileage you say they do. For a small plane, they are pretty damn fast. Light and powerful is a good combo. That plane will make the average Cessna look like a truck in the performance department.

Water injection is not going to add any appreciable power making oxygen into the system. Think about it for a minute. How much air does and engine need at even idle speeds? How large is the total volume of the water tank and how much of it gets injected per amount of time? How much of that water is just oxygen? I hope no one thinks that is enough to make a difference. Especially not at higher rpm's when under boost. There isn't even enough there for a human to take more than a single breath or so off of the whole oxygen content of the tank. Remember, it's only a third of the total amount of water.

...
In the end when we are talking abut pumping losses, we are discussing low throttle applications like highway cruising. From what I know, this is the situation where most superchargers use a bypass valve to increase economy, and this is because the SC will be pulling energy from the crank that isn't helping the engine at all. Please inform me if I am wrong about the purpose of the bypass valve.

Yes, you are wrong. It is not about economy. The SC is building pressure, which is not needed at cruising speeds (no engine load). The bypass valve keeps that intake pressure low. Think of it as a blow-off valve (kind of).

From what I know, this is the situation where most superchargers use a bypass valve to increase economy, and this is because the SC will be pulling energy from the crank that isn't helping the engine at all. Please inform me if I am wrong about the purpose of the bypass valve.
Any form of forced induction takes power to make it. It has to. When it's not making power, they all still take some power but not much. This applies to turbos and superchargers. A bypass valve is commonly used with positive displacement superchargers. They make boost according to rpm which means even at cruising speeds at low load levels. Remember it takes power to make it so if they are boosting, they are robbing the engine of power. It only takes so much to keep the car moving. If you have boost at the same rpm, you have more air which is more fuel and less economy. By using a bypass valve, the boost pressure is bled off to the frontside of the blower so in essence the only power being robbed is the power to keep the blower free spinning. This isn't much power. In contrast, on a turbo system the lack of a good scavenging header combined with an exhaust restriction will hurt economy more than on a supercharger.

Now you are probably wondering why you need a bypass valve if the blower is after the throttleplate spinning in what is in essence a vacuum. We are never in a complete vacuum. Even with the throttle plate completely closed at idle, you still have 20% of atmospheric pressure in the system. As long as there is air, it can be compressed. If you have a positive displacement supercharger remember you are theoretically able to make full boost at cruising speeds. With the throttle plate cracked open a little bit for cruising speeds you are still at about 40% of ambient outside pressure. This means the air still gets compressed by the blower by a similar amount over what it could do with the throttle wide open. If your blower makes 8 psi at full throttle at this rpm, it will still make a couple of psi at cruise. Even if it didn't make positive pressure, the pressure in the manifold is still greater than it would be without the blower. What is boost? It's pressure greater than what ou would normally have. It doesn't necessarily have to be positive. Just greater than what was there. More air needs more fuel and takes more power to create in the case of a blower. This takes power and is more air than the engine needs. Install a bypass valve and the engine no longer is working to compress the air. Now it is free spinning and using less power.

Why wouldn't the axial flow, centrifugal superchargers, or turbos need bypass valves though? Could they use them? Sure they could. Would it help appreciably? Probably not. Why? Remember the boost profile of each type of compressor. A turbo is well out of it's efficiency range at cruise (depending on it's size but I'm not going to get into that here) and is more or less supplying the air with only what it needs due. A centrifugal isn't really making much boost here anyways and when you cut that number down to account for the pressure in the manifold, it results in practically no extra air. In some cases the centrifugal hurts airflow at lower rpm's. The axial flow is similar in that it isn't producing much boost at lower rpms although it should be more than a centrifugal. The axial flow doesn't take much power to run anyways and doesn't heat up the air much compared to other forms. Combine this with how little air pressure is in the manifold and it's boost profile and you'll see that a bypass valve may be more effort than it's worth.

One thing to keep in mind is that a bypass valve actually causes a supercharger system to "lag". On my friend's old Bonneville SSEi, when you stepped on the gas, you could tell there was a slight lag until the bypass valve closed. It was a lot like turbo lag.

Yikes lets stop with all this debating....I feel like im back in class with RG's posts >< ......Lets keep it to updates from now shall we =)

There isn't even enough there for a human to take more than a single breath or so off of the whole oxygen content of the tank. Remember, it's only a third of the total amount of water.

Actually, a normal breath is .5L of air. Air is 20% oxygen, but in the vapor phase. You only need about .1L of oxygen per breath, and you actually only use about 2/3 of this. The rest is wasted and never makes it into your lungs.

Liquid water expands about 1600 times larger when it goes to vapor.

So a 2L water injection tank would be about 3200L in the vapor pahse. This would be a 33% oxygen mix if you broke it up, so you could take about 5300 .5L breaths off of the oxygen in a 2L tank of water. At a normal rate of 20 breaths per minute, this would last you almost 4.5 hours. This all assumes perfect effency of delivery, etc, but you can cleary take more than one breath off the O2 in a tank of water.

Liquids are really dense in comparison to vapor.

P.S. May be off by a factor of two- need to think about the fact that you need O2 and H2O breaking up gives you a single O. You should really do this math based on mass...