He wasn't going to do it as far as I knew. That's just how he would do it if he decided to.


so you dont realy know; it could go either way :Freak_ani :mdrmed:
Were is RP :sadwavey: he has not posted in a while to busy working...... :40oz:

he said some time ago that he had decided not to do that. like 20 or 30 pages ago

ok Must have missed that post :Peace:

You really can't put a definitive figure on how much heat is going to be taken out. You always want to be careful when injecting fuel that far away. If you get a backfire in the intake (probably a lot harder on a rotary than pistons), you can very easily destroy the blower.
First of all the pressure ratio is only around 0.5 through the blower, which leads to a relatively small heat increase and which is reduced anyways because of the heat reduction due to fuel evaporation. Second, there are no hotspots in the manifold where it could preignite.

Say, didn't we "inject" fuel "that far away" when we had carbs.
How far away were those cross ram carbs on the Dodge wedge engines of the mid '60's?? If I remember right the port to plenum was 29 inches. The short ram were 25". But they were still the same distance from the engine, they just joined the two ports earlier.

So you are still looking at adding the adational fuel before the compressor so the factory compoents would not be modified except the new fuel supply line to the new injector(s).

I thought one of the main advantages of an axial is that fact you can add fuel before the compressor unlike the infeior compressers out there.

I would like to inject it there and someday we will. Just right now the electronics are not making it easy. So we are limited to doing it like everyone else.
There are prospects on the horizon for modifying the stock ecu to work with the SC.

I would like to inject it there and someday we will. Just right now the electronics are not making it easy. So we are limited to doing it like everyone else.
There are prospects on the horizon for modifying the stock ecu to work with the SC.You mean like ecu reflashing right? How close is this horizon?

"The horizon is at infinity"
- Hymee's professor for "Geometrical Drawing and Perspective".

In fact I have made no secret of our intentions towards this goal, in terms of the sCANalyser product suite. But I have to keep progress a secret :p

Cheers,
Hymee.

Go ECU!

I am enamoured of my future supercharger, but it wont happen for me till there is an effective reflash for it, regardless if Hymee or RP have finished their SC's and offer them to me for free..... (hehe lets see if they try and test this theory)

"The horizon is at infinity"
- Hymee's professor for "Geometrical Drawing and Perspective".

In fact I have made no secret of our intentions towards this goal, in terms of the sCANalyser product suite. But I have to keep progress a secret :p

Cheers,
Hymee.Hahaha. I guess staying in the dark so to speak is better than you telling me it isnt happening. :mdrmed:

How close is this horizon?



Hard to see with the naked eye.
But with optical help??

If you'd wear your glasses, you'd be able to see better and get done with it faster Richard!

If you'd wear your glasses, you'd be able to see better and get done with it faster Richard!


I only need glasses to see up close.
It'll happen to you too, around 40 yrs old it'll go so fast it will make your eyes water. :Eyecrazy:

What kind of time frame are we talking about here? Six months, one year, five years? We have already been waiting for almost two years since this thread was started. It would be nice to have some kind of date we could look forward to, even if you have to revise that date from time to time. It would be nice to be able to check your web site and see what the estimated production date for the supercharger currently is.

What kind of time frame are we talking about here? Six months, one year, five years? We have already been waiting for almost two years since this thread was started. It would be nice to have some kind of date we could look forward to, even if you have to revise that date from time to time. It would be nice to be able to check your web site and see what the estimated production date for the supercharger currently is.

you want a rushed piece of crap? Seems to me the supercharger is done it's the integration that is being delt with. The ecu/managment and install are where the finesse is at. Building something is cake,. making it integrate well with a "black box" isn't.

What kind of time frame are we talking about here? Six months, one year, five years? We have already been waiting for almost two years since this thread was started. It would be nice to have some kind of date we could look forward to, even if you have to revise that date from time to time. It would be nice to be able to check your web site and see what the estimated production date for the supercharger currently is.
I think Richard is better off not giving a date. Not sure if you were around at the time the interceptors first came out. But we were told a date, and didn't receive them until about 2-3 months later. We weren't happy, but when it finally came all was well. Anyway, I definitely recommend not giving a date.

Not a date, per se, just a timeframe...

5-28-2004
We are about to market a new supercharger...

I think this qualifies as one of the biggest understatement of this forum.

How close is this horizon?

how tall are you?

how tall are you?

LOL! It doesn't matter. It is always at infinity ;)

Cheers,
Hymee.

While no one wants a rush job, if the Super Charger is ready, then right BUSINESS choice would be to market with a piggy back system. That was the plan mentioned more than several months ago, and recent developments with regard to reflashing the stock ECU are, at present, strictly speculative. There is, without a doubt, such a thing as over perfecting. Yes, reflashing the stock ECU would be ideal, but not an absolutely component. I will guarentee that sales have been lost due to the wait. Especially the wait with no indication of the wait ending. I know the engineers want it to be absolutely perfect before it goes to market. I also know that when companies wait to "perfect" a product, they sell considerably fewer of the product than the marketing types expect because the people who simply want the benefits offered will find another supplier. Anyone who gets upset when target dates aren't met is bound to get upset regardless, so give us a target date. There is less than ZERO risk in publishing "target" dates. There is huge risk in silence. The engineer in me sympathizes. The businessman in me hasn't become impatient, yet, but that's more due to a lack of funds on my end than anything else.

rp,
check pms.

beers :beer:

I will guarentee that sales have been lost due to the wait.

Money back guarantee? Jump on it, RP!

Anyone who gets upset when target dates aren't met is bound to get upset regardless, so give us a target date. There is less than ZERO risk in publishing "target" dates. There is huge risk in silence.

Unfortunately, that is almost everyone on this forum. There are only a handful of sympathetic people. Target anything leads to backlash, whether that is date (petite), power (Mazda did a buy back!), fuel consumption (do a search...), or whatever. Racing Beat has taught us that respectful silence (by silence I mean details on the progress of the project) is far better than "braggadocios" targeting.

check pms.

I thought he was a guy...

5-28-2004


I think this qualifies as one of the biggest understatement of this forum.

i dont agree, this has been marketed for a long time, and still is!!! the post didnt say sell, did it?????

i would prefer it to be done right the first time, and i think rp is that kinda guy, as hymee is.

or it could be rushed out like the greedy and the early adopters pay the dues.

the other two turbo options, have had lame excusees and nothing has been put out....

i figure it will be done when is is done. and that is a GOOD thing.

beers :beer:

I thought he was a guy...


full moon.

beers :beer:

In this case, silence is not golden.

I have had an interest in this supercharger from the 1st post. All along, for me there have been only two options for FI on my ride: RP's supercharger or Hymee's supercharger.

With Richard's comments over the last couple of months, it appears he has either a) lost interest in finishing this project, b) engine management is too difficult a beast for him to handle, or c) does not have the capitol to invest and keep this project moving in a timely manner.

So what is it Richard? Why are you not giving this project your attention? How do you plan on moving past the obstacle(s) ?

Yesterday two guys came by to get shifters installed. One was jrb I think and I don't know the forum name of the other. If you guys are paying attention to this thread then tell everyone else what you saw while here.

I'd rather have someone else tell you so you'll know it's not BS.
If they don't I'll take some pictures later and post them with someones help.
I still have computer problems. Mostly from my stupidity.

Richard,
Never ever have I felt you have given us BS. If I came across that way I apologize.

While no one wants a rush job, if the Super Charger is ready, then right BUSINESS choice would be to market with a piggy back system.
Right, like the GReddy turbo system - where more than a couple of people have blown up their engines due to a poorly designed, rushed kit with an inadequate piggy back system. I suppose if GReddy's attitude to customer support is "caveat emptor", then that's a good business choice, as long as their business model isn't counting on repeat business and word of mouth impact... ;)

I will guarentee that sales have been lost due to the wait.
Yes, as above, some people will have bought the GReddy turbo system instead of waited for a well developed system. Those that did got a kit that was poorly engineered (reference recent posts about poorly located BOV, IIRC) and a poorly implemented piggyback controller. Some people did/do want a rush job, and they ended up with a crap system. How many other rushed turbo systems have we seen announced, then ended up with "the turbo is ready, but the electronics aren't"?

Maybe the Interceptor is working out as a good piggy-back, but otherwise, the piggy-back systems for the RX-8 aren't encouraging. Band-aid solutions at best...

I was at Axialflow, I did see the supercharger mounted on a 13b engine. No BS from Richard. If the supercharger is going to be as good as the shifter, it will be another quality product for Axialflow. Thanks again..........

Did you see a new intake manifold also?

I was at Axialflow, I did see the supercharger mounted on a 13b engine. No BS from Richard. If the supercharger is going to be as good as the shifter (#), it will be another quality product for Axialflow. Thanks again..........
Come on...he gave you licence to spill your guts :D: You have to do better than this :D: :D:

^^^what dannobre said^^^ lets hear it!!!

RP, your mouthpiece's phrasing is... underwhelming... please those pics and a bit of discourse ... no one here minds you telling us straight out....

Ok, what was going on was a unit was spining on the test rig and the first front inlet unit was mounted on the spare engine. The new front inlet unit also has a new mounting system where it is raised up and the stock oil fill manifold is reinstalled. This part is a pain to replace as it has several functions. So now they remain standard.

There is a discharge fixture on the blower waiting for a 3" elbow to be welded on it. We cut the stock manifold up to see how everything will work. If the damn thing were aluminum it would work by just cutting and welding here and there. I'll get you a picture.

There is no hood clearance problem but it may require a new strut brace. Dunno yet. The front volute is in billet so there is alot of excess material on it but we will try and trim some off before it goes in the car.

We ran the test unit well into the late afternoon just taking temp and pressure readings. Basicly putting some miles on it and reinforcing our prior numbers.
I haven't ploted the results yet. (We are poor and have no data board, just write them down) Hand do the calcs. Well Dana had a little program built into his calculator but he dropped it and now it's gone.

Hey Turbine_pwr, didn't you tell me there were some sort of programs I can get for free on the net??

I'll go in today and get you some pictures. I know you like pictures. God knows if it is worth me not typing a thousand words per, then I should do it.

There is no hood clearance problem but it may require a new strut brace. Dunno yet.I would like to keep my Mazdaspeed strut tower brace at all costs.

I would like to keep my Mazdaspeed strut tower brace at all costs.
I second that... and hopefully since it has a much better clearance than the POS stock bar RP can get his AFSC to fit under it.

I would like to keep my Mazdaspeed strut tower brace at all costs.


No one is going to take it away from you. It just might wind up hanging on the wall behind your desk.

All joking aside it may just clear. I can't say for sure untill it's in the car, it's that close. Now if in fact it offers more clearance then everyone might have to get one.
Of course the one I build will be in the kit and be cheaper anyway.

Then again it will match the carbon fiber inlet adapter on front of the SC. :Drooling_
A little tease for you.

you want a rushed piece of crap? Seems to me the supercharger is done it's the integration that is being delt with. The ecu/managment and install are where the finesse is at. Building something is cake,. making it integrate well with a "black box" isn't.

No, I’m not saying I want a piece of crap. I think this supercharger is going to be better than anything that is currently for sale. I just think it would be nice to have some kind of time frame, even if that time frame has to be continually adjusted. Put an expected date somewhere on your web site, that would give people a reason to check it every week or so, it would be good marking for something so many people are waiting for.

Before May 15, 2007...there...we have a date...now we just have to get Richard to agree:D:

I feel much better now :D:

Then again it will match the carbon fiber inlet adapter on front of the SC.Now you did it :), where does the inlet adapter suck in air from?

This thread has passed the speed of light with the number of views BTW.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70152&stc=1

Speed of Light = 186,282.397 miles per second

Now you did it :), where does the inlet adapter suck in air from?


How did I know it would be you?
Got your interest huh?
When I get a way to transfer the pictures I just took you will see the light.
My computer at home sucks so I can't get the pictures from the camera into it. I was going to email them from the shop but I cant find a send button on that one.
I'm an idiot OK? Anyway Dana is on his way in and he can mail them to me then I'll mail them to someone like Ajax to post up for me. It might take a couple hours but it should be tonight. I have a backup in the way of a girlfriend who does comp work for a living coming in tonight to Burbank airport from up state. She will be late but that's the backup.

This thread has passed the speed of light with the number of views BTW.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70152&stc=1

Speed of Light = 186,282.397 miles per second


Or about 7 times around the earth.

richard if you need a computer for the home i can send you my sff carputer to use. and yes i am serious!!!!!

beers :beer:

No one is going to take it away from you. It just might wind up hanging on the wall behind your desk.

All joking aside it may just clear. I can't say for sure untill it's in the car, it's that close. Now if in fact it offers more clearance then everyone might have to get one.
Of course the one I build will be in the kit and be cheaper anyway.

Then again it will match the carbon fiber inlet adapter on front of the SC. :Drooling_
A little tease for you.

Are you going to include a "brace" for the brake master cylinder as well... like the Mazdaspeed one?

While no one wants a rush job, if the Super Charger is ready, then right BUSINESS choice would be to market with a piggy back system. That was the plan mentioned more than several months ago, and recent developments with regard to reflashing the stock ECU are, at present, strictly speculative. There is, without a doubt, such a thing as over perfecting. Yes, reflashing the stock ECU would be ideal, but not an absolutely component. I will guarentee that sales have been lost due to the wait. Especially the wait with no indication of the wait ending. I know the engineers want it to be absolutely perfect before it goes to market. I also know that when companies wait to "perfect" a product, they sell considerably fewer of the product than the marketing types expect because the people who simply want the benefits offered will find another supplier. Anyone who gets upset when target dates aren't met is bound to get upset regardless, so give us a target date. There is less than ZERO risk in publishing "target" dates. There is huge risk in silence. The engineer in me sympathizes. The businessman in me hasn't become impatient, yet, but that's more due to a lack of funds on my end than anything else.
In other words, shit or get off the pot, Richard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ylsuper:

Oh yeah, and come on with the flamage!!!!!!!!!

:anger: Harumph! Ask not what your fellow RX-8ers can do for you, but what you can do for your fellow RX-8ers :flamed:

It is incredibly easy to sit on the sidelines and take pot-shots. My advice: resist that temptation :nono:

It is so easy I can't stand it.
But thanks for the advice my FELLOW RX-8er.
And if that is wrong, I don't want to be right......... :spank:

There are just some Texans........... Wait, I can't say that.... I spent a lot of time there. Gainsville, Denton. Another time.

I got some pictures off to Ajax who usually does these things for me. There are pictures that will show we have not been playing hookie. So don't dock my pay.
After they are posted I will make comments on them.
I think you'll like the progress. And it's speeding up from here, the manifold should be done in a couple of weeks maybe less.
I wil go through the other side of the blower when you can see what it looks like.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how it's done. :ylsuper:

whats done? ;)

they are not gay.

beers :beer:

they are not gay.

beers :beer:

Thanks. But I think this a crossed post from my s/c thread. But I'm happy for that nonsense to be shifted here!

Cheers,
Hymee.

Thanks. But I think this a crossed post from my s/c thread. But I'm happy for that nonsense to be shifted here!

Cheers,
Hymee.

Fine then, I just posted one on yours.
I was just braging that there was no infighting between us.

In other words, shit or get off the pot, Richard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ylsuper:



I'm just reading your sig and noticed you don't have my shifter. That means you haven't even donated to the development program. You're not even helping to pay my bar bill.
Thus your comments offer no punishment whatsoever. :moon:

Or a Hymee cat-back, grill....or sCANalyser...clearly just a free-rider and, by the look of those mods...fashion victim :boink: :bootyshak

Or a Hymee cat-back, grill....or sCANalyser...clearly just a free-rider and, by the look of those mods...fashion victim :boink: :bootyshak
Hey, that's the spirit Bimbo, like I said it's so easy isn't it. :ylsuper:
Maybe I could bolt the Hymee cat-back up to my Greddy SP2, yeah you would like that wouldn't you, ZOOLANDER. :rock:

I'm just reading your sig and noticed you don't have my shifter. That means you haven't even donated to the development program. You're not even helping to pay my bar bill.
Thus your comments offer no punishment whatsoever. :moon:
No thanks, I don't make long term investments....... :kiss:

they are not gay.

beers :beer:
It's called a joke!!!!!!!!!!!
But thanks for clearing that up!!

whats done? ;)
updates!

Hey Richard, if you want or ever need I have can host any photos you may need as well, and would be glad to do so. Just lemme know if you need me to . . . and thanks for the update!

I just noticed I had some Gmail from Richard. You guys will like this:

nice thanks Ajax:)

now, it seems to be missing a throttle body....

That's the first picture we've ever seen of the new front throttlebody location.

How about a nice new cast manifold that just bolts on? Better yet how about a carbon fiber manifold that bolts on! Of course a price tag that Lockheed would be proud of would probably follow.

Things you should notice are the raised mount that now allows for the oil filler manifold to be installed stock. This part has alot of other functions glued to it si it is good to keep.
You can see the new inlet at an angle to axial of 40 degrees. From this a carbon fiber adapter will be built to install the TB. By the time the TB is installed it will turn almost straight in. From there will go the AC and inlet. Not exactly sure how that will look.
You can see at the outlet in he rear a cone has been machined that the elbow sitting there will be welded to. Notice the stock intake manifold has been cut off. Had it been aluminum we would just weld a nipple on it and then a hose to the elbow. But since it is polimer that is out and we have to make a new one. Happily it can be built just like the stock one. This insures us that there there will be no trouble we don't expect from a forced redesign.

Ajax can you lighten up some of that area around the manifold for us.

So we have solved a couple of problems associated with the oil system. First the filler then the oil filter access. These are now stock. We will build a plate for the oil filter so you can tap the oil off of it and not have to fight the gauge fitting.

BTW the last numbers we took the other night were at 36,000 (should go to 42k+) and they were 7.3 PSI with a 70f heat rise or approx 88% efficeincy.
I know you want plots for everything but I just haven't done them.

So you see where we are, working out the manifolds and the little details of hoses and wires. Also we are working on all that extra material on the inlet volute.
I have a picture of one of those sectioned so you can see the shape of the inlet passage. I'll get it out of the camera later at the shop.

I'm sure you have questions so I'll just wait for those.

Looks perty

88% efficiency :score: just for the compressor.

Cant wait to see what happens to temps when/if the fuel get added before the compressor.

I dot believe there was not a defiant statement either way so far for where to add the new fuel.

My vote before the compressor. It worked before that way before why change the design now.....

How about a nice new cast manifold that just bolts on? Better yet how about a carbon fiber manifold that bolts on! Of course a price tag that Lockheed would be proud of would probably follow.I love the idea of a cast manifold!

Hey Richard. Twin Cessnas have a silicone flex elbow that goes from the turbos to the intake manifold. They are expensive since they are aviation related. You might be able to have the part made for less for you. You can go online to RAM at www.ramaircraft.com . The part number is 1111-1. It is under ducts. as an elbow


John

Ajax can you lighten up some of that area around the manifold for us.
I'm not at home right now so I don't have access to any real editing tools.
If someone else wants to do grab those photos and lighten them, feel free, otherwise I'll get to it when I get home.

88% efficiency :score: just for the compressor.

Cant wait to see what happens to temps when/if the fuel (#) get added before the compressor.

I dot believe there was not a defiant statement either way so far for where to add the new fuel.

My vote before the compressor. It worked before that way before why change the design now.....The idea of adding more fuel before the manifold is good but what about the idea of the build up of fuel and residue as a result of fuel just sitting in the manifold sections thats valves are closed off like the runners that open at the higher RPMs. the less that valve is open the more build up you will get. So the runners that only open at 7000+ rpm would have a huge build up due to the fact that they are not open very offen. Is this a solid presumption, Richard or Rotarygod, any ideas?

The idea of adding more fuel before the manifold is good but what about the idea of the build up of fuel and residue as a result of fuel just sitting in the manifold sections thats valves are closed off like the runners that open at the higher RPMs. the less that valve is open the more build up you will get. So the runners that only open at 7000+ rpm would have a huge build up due to the fact that they are not open very offen. Is this a solid presumption, Richard or Rotarygod, any ideas?

Just shift at 9k RPM everytime to solve that problem

The idea of adding more fuel before the manifold is good but what about the idea of the build up of fuel and residue as a result of fuel just sitting in the manifold sections thats valves are closed off like the runners that open at the higher RPMs. the less that valve is open the more build up you will get. So the runners that only open at 7000+ rpm would have a huge build up due to the fact that they are not open very offen. Is this a solid presumption, Richard or Rotarygod, any ideas?
The gasoline is supposed to have evaporated by the time it leaves the compressor. (I think Richard once used the word blender).
Of course instead of injecting gasoline, one could inject a water/methanol mix before the compressor. Both have a significantly higher latent heat than gasoline (= remove more heat), which wouldn't require to richen the air fuel ratio to prevent detonation.
http://roger.ecn.purdue.edu/~propulsi/propulsion/jets/basics/water.html
However it would require an additional safety switch in case one runs out of water.

The idea of adding more fuel before the manifold is good but what about the idea of the build up of fuel and residue as a result of fuel just sitting in the manifold sections thats valves are closed off like the runners that open at the higher RPMs. the less that valve is open the more build up you will get. So the runners that only open at 7000+ rpm would have a huge build up due to the fact that they are not open very offen. Is this a solid presumption, Richard or Rotarygod, any ideas?



This probably will not happen as the air is going toward the vacuum sorce which is the open port. If in fact it did happen a small 1/8 hole in each blade would handle the problem without any effect on airflow design.
We would love to do it this way for the highspeed fueling but the electronics are more difficult and we will leave this for a later date. In fact this might be easier on a four port. It looks like the four port is dead and they will not be making them anymore.

I really deel that the Mazda is the ideal engine for prehomoginized fuel. It makes sense when you look at its big problem of the extended combustion chamber. I wish Mazda would give me a research project to try this under lab conditions. It wouldn't cost much and the potential is great. Now that we are a tad away from having the install ready it would only take the fueling hardware and managment software. Are yo out there Mazda??

What if that were the breakthrough? Would Mazda switch to rotorys for more models? Does that save money? What costs more to make a rotary or piston engine?

Doesn't methanol contain oxygen in it, so if you do inject it, you have to richen anyways to get more gas into there, so you don't run lean. I know that the top fuel racers run with something like 5 or 6:1 A/F.

The idea of adding more fuel before the manifold is good but what about the idea of the build up of fuel and residue as a result of fuel just sitting in the manifold sections thats valves are closed off like the runners that open at the higher RPMs. the less that valve is open the more build up you will get. So the runners that only open at 7000+ rpm would have a huge build up due to the fact that they are not open very offen. Is this a solid presumption, Richard or Rotarygod, any ideas?
It's not a problem. Think about carburators on piston engines for a minute. They inject fuel at the throttle plate at low pressures and then need the fuel to stay in suspension until it gets into the engine. To make matters worse, each valve is only open for a small amount of time every other engine revolution. When the fuel is added at low pressure, it isn't atomized in the slightest. It is almost just being dumped in. This is especially true at idle where airflow is very slow yet they still work just fine.

If Richard ever did do a fuel injector before the blower in the future, it would only come on after a set rpm when airflow is much faster. Also consider that a fuel injector has a much higher pressure fuel stream which is a much finer mist. The blower will make sure that this mist really gets dispersed into little bits. When the fuel is atomized to this amount, it goes where the air goes. When certain intake runners are closed off, air doesn't go there. The fuel won't either. It will just bypass these runners until they open.

In fact this might be easier on a four port. It looks like the four port is dead and they will not be making them anymore.

It might be dead now, but there's ten's of thousands of us out here...

Doesn't methanol contain oxygen in it, so if you do inject it, you have to richen anyways to get more gas into there, so you don't run lean. I know that the top fuel racers run with something like 5 or 6:1 A/F.

Water contains oxygen in it also.

This probably will not happen as the air is going toward the vacuum sorce which is the open port. If in fact it did happen a small 1/8 hole in each blade would handle the problem without any effect on airflow design.
We would love to do it this way for the highspeed fueling but the electronics are more difficult and we will leave this for a later date. In fact this might be easier on a four port. It looks like the four port is dead and they will not be making them anymore.

I really deel that the Mazda is the ideal engine for prehomoginized fuel. It makes sense when you look at its big problem of the extended combustion chamber. I wish Mazda would give me a research project to try this under lab conditions. It wouldn't cost much and the potential is great. Now that we are a tad away from having the install ready it would only take the fueling hardware and managment software. Are yo out there Mazda??

What if that were the breakthrough? Would Mazda switch to rotorys for more models? Does that save money? What costs more to make a rotary or piston engine?

Hmm... it is very interesting. I wonder how well it would work in conjunction with direct injection direct spark (DISI for Mazda, DSI for Mitsubishi)... on both rotaries and piston engines. Either way, I'd like to see the results of some research on this one too...

If it was the "breakthrough"? Well the design rotary that Mazda uses still does burn oil... which is an issue (people are lazy). Also something I have been wondering is the service life of your blower. This is only because jet engines used in aviation seem to require such significant amounts of service to keep them running properly and the chances of ending up with a compressor blade ending up in the combustion chamber. Nothing to do with your work... just that jet engines seem to be a little... delicate. That's all. I figure Mazda/Ford would also ask the same question too since your blower isn't in widespread use in the automotive world.

More rotaries in more cars? Well. Mazda might... they do have the hydrogen powered version and the hybrid version (which also adds FWD configuration)... so who knows. There are just a few issues though...

1. The engines are assembled by hand in the original factory (from back in the day). Not much capacity there. Any significant changes/retooling/improvements/whatever will cost some cash flow.

2. Even if Mazda put a rotary in everything they make... it's not used anywhere else... so there is a limit to economy of scale here... especially when combined with #1.

3. Because of #1 and #2, the rotary isn't so cheap to make. In theory... if it was being produced on the scale that piston engines are... considering less parts and simple assembly... it should be less expensive. Should be.

Considering the continous hours of service that turbine engines do at high power settings, I feel they have a better "service life". And one of the reasons they are so fastidiously serviced in aviation circles is the human life saftey factor.

I guess they are delicate if they ingest something (FOD). But so are all engines, even rotars. I also remember a particular start line incident where a V12 Jag injested a small peice of headlight glass... Not long till it was a V11, then a V0.

Cheers,
Hymee.

I don't really know the actual hrs that service is required for modern turbine engines but I think in the thousands for the C section. Even the Hot section goes for far more hours then a piston engine does. Turbine_pwr can give you the numbers or maybe some of our pilot friends can chime in here.

Wildcard, John Corbitt. Don't we have two helo pilots on this thread named Jon?
And some more military that I'm not aware of, you have to be there.
How about some aircraft maintaince guys.


Just reread that and have to touch on something. What we have here is one rotating part that touches no other part. Other then the bearings and gears no wear can be antisapated. The bearings are rated for over full speed of the blower and yet the blower spends very little time even close to top speed. That is one thing about aircraft engines, they spend thier life almost full speed and 80% load.

Nothing driven on the road can ever do that kind of service. Only in the air or on the ocean is there full load full speed continuos duty possable. Those pilots always back off from there after getting to speed. But only a %.

A tuna trawler might at time see full service for a distance though. Maybe warships and offshore sex boats.

Considering the continous hours of service that turbine engines do at high power settings, I feel they have a better "service life". And one of the reasons they are so fastidiously serviced in aviation circles is the human life saftey factor.

Ah... "human life saftey factor"... that is very true. Especially in commercial aircraft.


I guess they are delicate if they ingest something (FOD). But so are all engines, even rotars. I also remember a particular start line incident where a V12 Jag injested a small peice of headlight glass... Not long till it was a V11, then a V0.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Ouch! :eek:






I don't really know the actual hrs that service is required for modern turbine engines but I think in the thousands for the C section. Even the Hot section goes for far more hours then a piston engine does. Turbine_pwr can give you the numbers or maybe some of our pilot friends can chime in here.

Wildcard, John Corbitt. Don't we have two helo pilots on this thread named Jon?
And some more military that I'm not aware of, you have to be there.
How about some aircraft maintaince guys.


Just reread that and have to touch on something. What we have here is one rotating part that touches no other part. Other then the bearings and gears no wear can be antisapated. The bearings are rated for over full speed of the blower and yet the blower spends very little time even close to top speed. That is one thing about aircraft engines, they spend thier life almost full speed and 80% load.

Nothing driven on the road can ever do that kind of service. Only in the air or on the ocean is there full load full speed continuos duty possable. Those pilots always back off from there after getting to speed. But only a %.

A tuna trawler might at time see full service for a distance though. Maybe warships and offshore sex boats.

Good points guys. I did forget that these engines typically spend hours running at 80-100% load.

I was only trying to think of possible issues or questions the automakers would have about something like this. We all know how much ass covering they do... sometimes by necessity. Liability and service costs are obvious things they would be concerned with.

With how you've got your unit well over-spec'd... it sounds like there should be many years of problem-free operation. :ylsuper:

HEY MAZDA! Give this man some research money... he might just have what you've been looking for.

Sorry, dont know how to thumbnail these:

http://www.pbase.com/djgiron/image/56084177.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/djgiron/image/56084178.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/djgiron/image/56084179.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/djgiron/image/56084180.jpg

This last one was the best I could do:

http://www.pbase.com/djgiron/image/56084181.jpg

Doesn't methanol contain oxygen in it, so if you do inject it, you have to richen anyways to get more gas into there, so you don't run lean. I know that the top fuel racers run with something like 5 or 6:1 A/F.
Top fuel racers run nitromethane not methanol.
If anything you would need to lean the mixture somewhat in case methanol actually burns and if it burns it will burn oxygen during the combustion process. This can especially be seen on Diesel engines that inject a water/methanol mixture (black fumes).

I don't know if a big hunk of aluminum ever looked so sexy :)

RP I know you are a stickler for using your own designs/idea so there is no concern about something not being a quality product. However would the ELF (BRP ELF LINK (http://www.brperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BRPELF9901&Category_Code=) ) work on the fuel side of things for now to get the monster up an running so we can see some dyno numbers.
Instructions on bottom of page; the instructions show the unit will work on engines with injectors varying from 2 to 4 with optional electrical tag for an additional injector or water injection.

When our engines are at idle the 12 stage compressor is spinning at 62%. We can fly for 16hours nonstop with the engine running at about 95%. 5th stage bleed air is quite often over 40psi. Richards compressor putting out 6psi is hardly having to do any work. Any FOD (Forign Object Dammage) injested that would damage the compressor would certainly damage the rotary engine. This is why it is so important to always use an air filter.


John

ATTENTION

is it possible to make a sticky of just the information given not all the posts because it's hard for me to get all the info from 190 pages!!!1

thx

if you go to the final 15 post 99% of the time you will find the answer to your ???s.

rp check pm.

beers :beer:

ATTENTION

is it possible to make a sticky of just the information given not all the posts because it's hard for me to get all the info from 190 pages!!!1

thx

The only way to sticky the information, AFAIK, is for someone to read 190 pages, gather the info, make a new thread, and sticky that thread. So, if you are willing to go through the 190 pages and gather the important stuff and make a new post, feel free. If not, I doubt anyone will be motivated enough to do it for you... unless you give them money.

If it was the "breakthrough"? Well the design rotary that Mazda uses still does burn oil... which is an issue (people are lazy). Also something I have been wondering is the service life of your blower. This is only because jet engines used in aviation seem to require such significant amounts of service to keep them running properly and the chances of ending up with a compressor blade ending up in the combustion chamber. Nothing to do with your work... just that jet engines seem to be a little... delicate. That's all. I figure Mazda/Ford would also ask the same question too since your blower isn't in widespread use in the automotive world.

I've seen engineers at grumman chuck frozen turkeys through running engines to test their durability.. they are pretty damn hardy... since this isnt going to be exposed to anything thanks to ducting and a filter i'd expect it to last a VERY long time.

I've seen engineers at grumman chuck frozen turkeys through running engines to test their durability.. they are pretty damn hardy... since this isnt going to be exposed to anything thanks to ducting and a filter i'd expect it to last a VERY long time.Damn! That would be a sight to see. I dont think i need to worry about turkeys too much but ive been knownto be wrong from time to time. But seriously, im not worried about the durability.

I did not know that frozen turkeys could fly :Eyecrazy:

RP, are you making a CF cold air intake to bring in air from the outside the front bumper similar to the REVi?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22438


See page 14 post 204


At this time we are only making the SC to TB adapter from CF.
What comes from the TB on foward we don't know yet. We havn't gotten there.

Do they at least make some sandwiches/burgers with the now ground/slightly cooked turkey?

I did not know that frozen turkeys could fly :Eyecrazy:


The standard answer is "With enough thrust anything will fly". :mdrmed:

I don't think FOD is too much of a worry since the SC is downstream of filters and screens.

Thanks for the great laugh. I love reading threads like this...

I'll gladly take any of your guys hard earned cash and develop some sort of magic never before seen part that boosts 19psi and only raises air temps 10 degrees.. and my delivery time will be just like this - between now and someday...

Just shoot nos or buy a regular turbo instead of trying to think outside of the x-box on this one. It's a proven, reliable element that you can run for 100,000 miles at 7 psi...

If you want more power than that, just go buy a 20B and drop it in your '8.

LOL thanks! Great thread!

Thanks for the great laugh. I love reading threads like this...

I'll gladly take any of your guys hard earned cash and develop some sort of magic never before seen part that boosts 19psi and only raises air temps 10 degrees.. and my delivery time will be just like this - between now and someday...

Just shoot nos or buy a regular turbo instead of trying to think outside of the x-box on this one. It's a proven, reliable element that you can run for 100,000 miles at 7 psi...

If you want more power than that, just go buy a 20B and drop it in your '8.

LOL thanks! Great thread!



DrFoster, I assume you are a doctor of fluid dynamics.
That or I just got an underhanded insult.

The difference between you and me is that I only used my own money.

and you have been building Axial flows for years whereas the good Dr. has built..... nothing

Just shoot nos or buy a regular turbo instead of trying to think outside of the x-box on this one. It's a proven, reliable element that you can run for 100,000 miles at 7 psi...


HA, I guess all the inventors should go home because theres no way anyone can improve on existing technology.

Just shoot nos or buy a regular turbo instead of trying to think outside of the x-box on this one. It's a proven, reliable element that you can run for 100,000 miles at 7 psi...

If you want more power than that, just go buy a 20B and drop it in your '8.


I don't want a turbo and I don't like nitrous. I can't afford a 20B. How about someone develop a supercharger?

Something to think about since I'm going to play on the doctor theme. The doctors that have made all the advancements and all the breakthroughs in medicine didn't do it by playing it safe and relying on what they already knew. They went where no one else did or even thought of going and they made huge leaps and learned lots. Some are made to lead and some are meant to blindly follow. If you aren't the lead dog, the view never changes. Think about that one in several different contexts.

Thanks for the laugh.

So what you're saying is Dr. Foster is a doctor of proctology? :bootyshak

OH! Looking good RP. Keep up the good work. Any chance of an audio clip of the (or a) compressor humming along at good speed? I'd offer to personally record something if i were closer. :(

Hi Richard,

For what it's worth, RX-8 owners in Spain are following your progress very closely. And personally, I find your work worth funding. Mazda could REALLY use your help.

So much for DrFoster.... :sad:

Man RP, I ... I can't fight the tears.
Seriously though, your are definitely on to something VERY good. Heck, get this man a beer and research funds Mazda.

RP I know you are a stickler for using your own designs/idea so there is no concern about something not being a quality product. However would the ELF (BRP ELF LINK (http://www.brperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BRPELF9901&Category_Code=) ) work on the fuel side of things for now to get the monster up an running so we can see some dyno numbers.
Instructions on bottom of page; the instructions show the unit will work on engines with injectors varying from 2 to 4 with optional electrical tag for an additional injector or water injection.


RP did you ever get the new fuel system/ electronics worked out.
See my previous post for link for the ELF and at only $425 its not that expensive compared with other fuel comtrolers out there. Being that its not truly legal in CA is not a problem its so small you can hide it so your inspectors does not see it :spank: and it does not effect the OBD-II interface.

well commercial aircraft get 2000-3000 hours of flight before service of course a plane flying from florida to europe is a single cycle will have less service than a plane flying from florida to georgia and then texas and nevada. because it has to take off more times which cause more wear and tear. so it will need service more frequently.

rp check you pm

RP i have a site call photobucket where you can open and account like opening a email account and it allows you to place codes in site which will show picture and will not steal as much band, you place the picture into the account like and attachment to and email them copy the code from the site and pace it where ever you want and it will show the picture, its free for a limited bandwidth so you can place like 30 picture @ once before it runs out and just keep rotating it there after.

DrFoster...
I'm not gonna flame ya, but for the record...
Turbos have a very serious inherent problem with blowing up, blowing out bearings, leaks, and boost loss from half a million reasons. Can be great when they work but it seems all I ever hear is "My turbo died". EDIT: I also understand that Greddy has a zero warranty on their Turbo... Yeah! I want a 3k Turbo that gives about 30 more HP and will last for about 1,500 to 3,000 miles of boost.
NOS and family is as well not so stable. Can and does ignite... No insurance Co. will cover a NOS fire. Also... you cannot use NOS as a constant boost, well not unless you add about 100LBS of weight for a huge NOS cylinder. Always paying to get that boost too.
A supercharger runs full time and possibly could be configured to be disabled with a toggle switch if you did not wanna hot-rod around and save some fuel.
In summation... the supercharger is a very promising option for us and taking time to make it functional and dependable has lots of merit. Most manufactures rush a mediocre product on the market to be the 1st one there and have too many issues due to lack of development and testing.
I know of a few companies working on SC's for the 8. All of them have not rushed the product cause I think they know what is at stake.
I am no wrench monkey… nor do I claim to be a know-it-all. I am a driver who wants more… A SC is more cost effective that gutting the whole motor bay to house the 20B or for that matter the 26B. Yeah I would love to have either one, but let’s face it… only about 4 or 5 users on all these boards can afford such an option. If I am correct the 20B with all the cost it would take to buy and install still does not break the 300 HP barrier? So lets see… bone stock 238 HP versus I do not know how much $$$ to get 60 more HP. I’d rather wait to see what the SC’s can do for me!

RP's axial SC will make this car an exotic - post some more teasers Rich

Who ever said "the first shall be last, and the last shal be first" hey Richard who ever put first dibbs in on this.. I want in. :naughty: ..I am here looking into my engine. :( .wishing I saw that extra piece of design sitting in there :yesnod: keep up the good work...

....EDIT: I also understand that Greddy has a zero warranty on their Turbo... Yeah! I want a 3k Turbo that gives about 30 more HP and will last for about 1,500 to 3,000 miles of boost....


1) Try about 100WHP gain.
2)Mine is approaching 20k miles.
3)I seriously doubt ANY aftermarket FI will come with much of a warranty. There are too many variables in play: installation problems, operator error, etc. The supplier can't control the things leading to most failures. Not a good way to make $.

1) Try about 100WHP gain.
2)Mine is approaching 20k miles.
3)I seriously doubt ANY aftermarket FI will come with much of a warranty. There are too many variables in play: installation problems, operator error, etc. The supplier can't control the things leading to most failures. Not a good way to make $.

LOL!
I was being a bit of a smart ass... but from Dynos I have seen I did not see a 100HP boost in any part of the band. Obviously, the tuning can make a difference. I am not saying that all turbos die, but just look at these boards and see the complaints about them left and right. I did, as well, mention that they are great when the are performing as specified.
I want sumthing that is more reliable right out of the box. and not a wildcard if I will get the one that has a normal life-span.
I would hope any manufacturer would warranty their product from manufacture defects. Maybe I am wrong here, and I will concede to that as I am no engineer. The 7's turbo(s) had warranties, though not aftermarket.
We cool? I was not attempting to make the turbo sound useless.

Hey vice I also read your post, I did not get that idear of you tryign to make the turbo usless,.. all I read in your post was advancement..:) am I wrong..:)

Nobody said he was making it out to be useless. He started his post "...for the record..." I just wanted to make sure the record was a little more informed.

lighten up people :yelrotflm ...hey RP...post a pic to keep us busy in here.. Hmmmm my hood is still open.. :naughty:

LOL!
I was being a bit of a smart ass... but from Dynos I have seen I did not see a 100HP boost in any part of the band. Obviously, the tuning can make a difference. I am not saying that all turbos die, but just look at these boards and see the complaints about them left and right. I did, as well, mention that they are great when the are performing as specified.
I want sumthing that is more reliable right out of the box. and not a wildcard if I will get the one that has a normal life-span.
I would hope any manufacturer would warranty their product from manufacture defects. Maybe I am wrong here, and I will concede to that as I am no engineer. The 7's turbo(s) had warranties, though not aftermarket.
We cool? I was not attempting to make the turbo sound useless.


I also gained 100hp as of my last dyno with gains all throughout the rev range. I'm hoping for more this time. No offense to anyone, but good luck doing that with a SC. Maybe Axial flow will, I haven't ever known anyone with one, but in general my experience is you get less power out of a SC. I could list many reasons that substantiate this, but I'm sure no one wants to hear them, and of course its not true 100% of the time.

There has been a large number of Greddy turbo failures, I don't know why. But in general a turbo will last 80k or so without problem. The turbo Greddy uses is found on many stock cars and lasts all kinds of abuse from drivers who forget to change the oil, don't let the car cool down, use the wrong oil, etc, and is fine. I think there was, and maybe still is, something wrong with the Greddy turbo kit causing these premature failures. But I'm optimistic that Jeff's wastegate port relocation will correct the problem. Only time will tell though. Either way, it is not correct to make the blanket statement that turbo's aren't reliable and fail.

I also gained 100hp as of my last dyno with gains all throughout the rev range. I'm hoping for more this time. No offense to anyone, but good luck doing that with a SC. Maybe Axial flow will, I haven't ever known anyone with one, but in general my experience is you get less power out of a SC. I could list many reasons that substantiate this, but I'm sure no one wants to hear them, and of course its not true 100% of the time.

A supercharger is just as capable. It's all airflow.

The argument of power potential is sort of moot. Yes, it's all about airflow. Making a blanket statement about "superchargers" verses turbo-superchargers is silly.

Trying telling someone who just witnessed a 4 second pass by a top fueller that the his supercharger makes "less power".

Of all the different types of superchargers, there are 3 basic types of compressors (centrigugal, axial flow, and positive displacement [with variations]), and 2 common ways of driving them (exhaust gas driven, or crankshaft driven)

They all have their different characteristics, advantages and disadvantages. But at the end of the day, you can always make a bigger one for more airflow. Whether is suits the engine size or RPM range characteristics of operation is another matter.

Cheers,
Hymee.

I can give a very good reason why we've never seen big gains on a rotary from a supercharger. I've never seen anyone do a supercharger properly on a rotary before. It's as simple as that. I'm excluding Hymee and Richard's projects of course. If you go over to the 7 forum and look for superchargers, you'll see 3 different types.

Atkins (Camden) makes a roots supercharger kit. It uses a roots supercharger with straight cut 2 lobe rotors. These are the single least efficent roots blowers you can get and we all know how efficient a roots setup is compared to other alternatives anyways. Now you're using the worst of the worst. You won't find very impressive numbers with them. I have ridden in a Camden supercharged 1st gen before and it was alot of fun. The car has some great off idle torque but that was it. Nothing on top.

The second type you see is the people using an Eaton M90 roots blower and adapting it to their 2nd gens. There are 3 different generations of M90's and each newer one is an improvement on the previous. The 2 different ones you'll see were the ones from the Thunderbirds. These were first and second generation Eaton M90's. Many are using the first gen blowers and a few use the second gen blowers which are an improvement. However you never see anyone integrate these on nicely. You see alot of things rigged to merely work but at the huge cost of efficency and pumping losses. There was even one conversion that placed the M90 before the stock throttlebody! These blowers are actually nicer than the Atkins units but still only as good as their installation which as of now has not been done well on a rotary. The M90 even done properly isn't sized good for a rotary that wants alot of power. For a sub 160 hp 13B, it can give a noticable gain but will still only be limited to about 275 hp if you do everything right and take alot of things onto consideration. Most of the subpar attempts have only netted in the 220 hp range but as stated earlier they left alot to be desired in terms of how they were installed and setup. Alot of those guys don't believe in proper ecu work but rather add piggyback bandaids, and limited ones at that.

The last type of superchargers you can find on rotaries are the old Nelson/Paxton kits. These used a Novi2000 blower. Sadly these cars could only push them to about 7 psi before overspinning them and power was limited to about 220 rwhp max. It's funny that many can't figure out how this supercharger can do so well on other engines but so poorly on a small rotary. The issue is actually backwards from what most think. Alot of people think the blower is too small. It's actually too big and is always on the verge of compressor surge which is why power is low. It's not sized properly for the job at hand. This is a common issue with supercharger conversions on rotaries.

Now we move on to Hymee and Richard. 2 people doing their homework and both with different designs. They will both succeed where others have failed simply because they both know what size the supercharger needs to be in order to get the power out of it that they want. They both also know how to go slow and do everything properly rather than rigged merely to work. Alot of things are common sense but others are trial and error. Why haven't we seen any blowers produce big gains on a rotary yet? No one has done one properly on a rotary yet. Welcome to the future!

I am not taking any comments personal! it is all cool and misinformation or my jabbed misrepresentation being called into question is just. We don't want people believing from my post that Turbos only give ya 30 HP!!! :) All I wanted to really say was it "Appears to me (the non wrench monkey or Engineer)" that Turbos, (Greddy for sure) are having tons of issues and falling way short of what is represented as far as life-cycle. rkostolni or MadDog... I would love to see your Dyno Graph. (PM me if you would.) don't wanna junk up RP's thread with Trubo charts.

The comments about aircraft turbines n such is what I think RP was noting in the drive behind the SC technology change. I am hoping for less working parts and more compressed air to gain a steady and reliable constant HP boost. With well managed compression I can see the SC going well over 100HP and not having the failure rate as other options, but what do I know? It may be that the stock Apex seals cannot even withstand the power gain! wouldn't that be awesome?!?! None are really out there on the market yet so the development continues. :cool:

I know this is completely off topic for this thread, but I couldn't find a way to send an attachment in a PM. So here it is. This is before tuning was complete. Once the A/F was dialed in I should have found a few more ponies, but my turbo died during the tuning session. Since then I've added a few more mods and made a couple other changes, so I'm hoping for close to 300whp next time.

PM sent

So, who is going to be your first customer? :D:

So, who is going to be your first customer? :D:



Hymee! :lol2: :bigok:

How many axial flow blowers does it take to equal one Hymee blower in weight?:evil_laug

The same number of me as it does one Hymee. :rollingla :rollingla :rofl: :xyxwave:

Why are people so unkind. :confused: :o: :wavey:

The same number of me as it does one Hymee. :rollingla :rollingla :rofl: :xyxwave:
That is so funny.

Especially for a litty skinny asian dude like yourself ;) ROFL!

Especially for a litty skinny asian dude like yourself ;) ROFL!
Becareful, :lol:

I am riding (that is cycling) to work (30 minute each way) now.

It is 5kg down 15 more to go.

Now I would like to see you do that. :lol2:

I still watch this space a lot.

Most Japanese blower project is not processing fast either, and they have 20+ people developing it full time.

Hey I am talking about HKS. :wavey:

Good work mate! I reckon I need to shed 40.

Good work mate! I reckon I need to shed 40.
Keep working on what you are believe in, RP and Hymee.

I knew that once I get back on my bike, my weight will drop.

Just keep on working. You will get there.

In the meanwhile... I will nurse my Renesis to the day that a nice blower comes along (not driving much this days) :cry:

Why are people so unkind. :confused: :o: :wavey:
Just having fun :cool:

:grouphug:

It was said in jest but it is sorta real. Though in fairness to the Hymester my blower is currently about 4 lbs overweight. Due to that new front volute it needs a lot of running to get back down to something reasonable. When cast the thing will get back on track. There is just so much extra material on it I can't begin to start cutting it off. Haven't weighed it but it might even be as much as 6 lbs overweight.

So don't feel bad Hymee, it's easier to cut weight off of this thing. If you want we can put you up on the machining center and run a program of your choice. Of course we could just cast you. :rollingla :rollingla

Hey, maybe I just found my calling in life. I could open a shop in Beverly Hills and machine women into whatever shape they wanted to be. We know most of them have enough excess material to work with. Taka, can we sell the scrap? :rollingla :rofl:

I could open a shop in Beverly Hills and machine women into whatever shape they wanted to be. We know most of them have enough excess material to work with. Taka, can we sell the scrap? :rollingla :rofl:

Sounds like the movie "Fight Club"...

Hey, maybe I just found my calling in life. I could open a shop in Beverly Hills and machine women into whatever shape they wanted to be. We know most of them have enough excess material to work with. Taka, can we sell the scrap? :rollingla :rofl:

Good luck telling a women any part of her is scrap; you might end up like this: :spank:

He'd like that though!

Maybe that's why I live alone with a red ass! :rofl:

Live alone with a red ass? How the hell do you spank yourself?

I thought he had a spray painted donkey.

Silly, it's simple. You put the paddle in the vice and run backwards into it. :Eyecrazy: I can't believe you haven't tried that Fred. :mdrmed:

I thought he had a spray painted donkey.



Nope, did it the old way, with a brush. :mdrmed:

The M90 even done properly isn't sized good for a rotary that wants alot of power. For a sub 160 hp 13B, it can give a noticable gain but will still only be limited to about 275 hp if you do everything right and take alot of things onto consideration. Most of the subpar attempts have only netted in the 220 hp range but as stated earlier they left alot to be desired in terms of how they were installed and setup.

Long-time listener, first-time poster :) I'm a member of www.miataforum.com , but I hang out at a few other websites in the interest of following cool and intriguing threads like this one!

First, I'd like to say I'd really love to see this project come to fruition for you RX-8 owners (as well as the S2000 guys, perhaps?) Sounds like an awesome exercise in engineering, and one that has not had enough attention paid to it in the automotive aftermarket.

Secondly, the fallacy that the Roots/Eaton/Magnusson blowers are wildly inefficient and can't make a wit of extra horsepower ("Heaton" ;)), etc., has got to be the most rampant false rumor that travels through internet automotive forums. The positive-displacement, lobe blower has come a long way since the 1950s and 60s, and Eatons 4th and 5th-gen blowers are actually more efficient at "lower" boost levels (say, under ~6-8psi) than the twin-screw Lysholm/Whipple/Autorotors. In fact, because the twin-screws produce small amounts of internal compression, their outlet temps at low-RPMs and off-boost are also considerably higher than the Eatons.

The MP62 is currently pretty big in the Miata community, as is the 1.2L Whipple (from two separate vendors). So far, even though the 1.2L has .2L more displacement than the MP62, the highest rwhp recorded by both vendors is roughly equal (just over 300rwhp). In fact, one forum member went balls-out with his MP62, spinning it to ~21k RPM with all kinds of water injection and all the tricks in the book, and was able to get close to 360rwhp out of that blower (which, according to the Eaton's product charts is about as much air as it can flow).

So, if people are only getting 220rwhp out of an M90, with almost half-a-liter more displacement, on their RX-7s, then something's not right. There's a metric ton of Miatas running around with ~170-250rwhp from the MP62 and 1.2L Whipple, and quite a few beyond 250rwhp.

Now, given all that, I'm not saying these compressors have centrifugal-like efficiencies, but they're certainly not anywhere near as bad off as most people seem to believe. On top of that, they're the perfect match for small-displacement, low-torque motors, as they give exactly what these engines are lacking. Why do you think so many OEM apps go with them?

Oh, and the MP62 vendor for the Miata community (www.brperformance.com) is just now releasing their MP62-based S2000 kit, and it's making ~315rwhp/218lb-ft...with only 6.5psi of boost :)

Anywho, just thought I'd interject my bit o' information as an outsider.

Keep up the good work, Richard, and show us some more pics :) We don't really care what they're of...well, as long as it's of the engine or some cool piece of billet machined metal :)

The problem is that the rotary uses about 10 lbs of air to make 1hp and an average piston engine uses about 7lbs of air to make 1hp. That would mean that a blower that is capable of making 360 hp on a piston engine can only make about 250hp on a rotary. Do that math. That assumes everything was done perfectly. Using water injection and "all the tricks in the book" do not add up to reliability or daily drivability. 170-250hp on a piston engine would only be the same amount of air as 119-175hp on a rotary. These numbers assume all things being equal of course. There are some things that can affect these numbers but they are good baselines. A rotary will dyno more than that to the wheels with no boost. If that's the average power level that the M62's are getting on average, that's believable. They're too small for a rotary.

There are ways to get more out of an eaton blower. You can machine new rotors out of a lighter composite material and make the tolerances tighter. You can alter the inlets and outlets to have a nice shape good to airflow and then time them to a perfect 120 degrees of rotational opening. You can change the bearings to give you bearings that perform better at higher speeds. The throttlebody size on these is huge in making more power. Go up to an 80mm and power will go up. Design the intake duct from the tb to the blower for good flow velocity. These things can all add up but if the blower is small, it still isn't solving the main issue. Realistically if you wanted decent power out of an Eaton on a rotary, you'd use an M112. As I stated earlier, sizing depends on your power goals. If you want 300+hp with an Eaton, it'll be at least an M112 in size. If you'd like the 250hp range, you can get away with the M90. The M62 will lose you power.

You would mean 10 (or 7) pounds of air per minute, per horsepower, yeah?

Cheers,
Hymee.

Actually I need to go back and think that one out again. I'll post again when I make sure I've got it straight.

I'm pretty sure it actually is 1 lb/min of air per 10HP for a piston engine.

Less HP for a rotary.

OK got it straight now. I had it backwards. A good piston engine will make about 10 hp per lb of air whereas a rotary will make about 8 hp per lb of air. This means it takes more air on the rotary to make the same power which is why the comparison to a Miata engine is absurd.

An Eaton that is maxed out to the point of absurdity and unreliability that can make 360 hp on a piston engine can only make about 288 hp on a rotary. If that is an M62, it is spinning really fast, making tons of heat that need "all the tricks in the book" to control it, and it is probably making an awful lot of boost. That proves an M62 would be way too small. If the average power of an M62 is 170-250 hp on a piston engine, then it would only make it about 136-200hp on a rotary at 6-8 psi. The rotary can hit the upper end of this range with no boost. Too small. An M90 is nearly 50% larger but it isn't going to give a 50% increase in power over the M62. To many other variables and losses with spinning a heavier blower among other things.

I stick to my story that to make large horsepower over 300 on a rotary isn't going to happen with an M90 for the above air usage differences with the rotary. If you do, you're using "all the tricks in the book" and it would just be easier to size a different blower. It'll take at least an M112 to have that potential but then again other issues arise with larger units. You can't go larger forever.

Yes that is about it. We need to be carefull here because we assume a perfect engine build. But a rule of thumb for the well built piston engne is 10hp for 1lbs of air per min.

We use min because that is what the HP is using. Remember it has a time factor in the equation. RPM being time. Work done in time. If you want to just know how strong it is you use torque.

If you want to use CFM it is a little tricky because you must factor in the barometric pressure, humidity and temp.
I use .072 but it can be as low as .069 (or less at true sea level)
one lbs/min over .069 is aprox 14.5CFM
Edit) .069 is for 85 degrees f at 28.4hg.
The constant will go down if the temp goes down or the press goes up.
It is my experience that ten hp from that much air is a good engine at 6000 or maybe less. As you go up the rpm range you lose to friction so the numbers must be adjusted.
Example might be an engine tuned for low RPM might get 10hp for 10cfm at 3000.

OK got it straight now. I had it backwards. A good piston engine will make about 10 hp per lb of air whereas a rotary will make about 8 hp per lb of air.

Yep - 10 hp per lb of air per minute.

I reckon 8 is about right for the Renesis, in stock form. MAF readings I've taken are about 220 g/s at max power. I've publised that graph elsewhere in this place. That works out to 29.1 lbs/min. Therefore, 29.1 lbs/min @ 8 HP per lb/min is about 233HP. The Renesis is rated at 238, so for a sanity check it is pretty close. Flywheel figures we are talking about.

The problem is that it is not widely known what they actually make on an engine dyno. I have the means to do that, if enough folk are interested. It all depends on if you all want to help fund it :) It would be interesting to see how close we get to the "claimed" figures, especialy in light of the HP debacle in the early days.

Of course, there are others who have claim they make lower that that. If anyone published the figures, please point me to them.

Cheers,
Hymee.

^^ under the new SAE ratings isn't the RX-8 being rated as 232hp now?

... yep... just checked MNAO's website...


212 hp 1.3-liter RENESIS 2-rotor, 4-intake-port, rotary engine
232 hp 1.3-liter RENESIS 2-rotor, 6-intake-port, rotary engine


And it looks like the new 6-speed AT still has the 4 port motor...

Anyway... by your figures Hymee, the RX-8 is making the power that mazda claims (now).

Well, there you go!

Interesting, shows how much (read: little :D) I know about the Wankel; I was unware that they're incapable of converting the same amount of air into power as a piston engine. Yes, the Eaton used on the Miata kits is the MP62, which is the 4th or 5th generation of the M62. And yes, if you're using all the tricks in the book with a particular compressor to utilize all the CFM of air it can provide and turn it into usable power, then that's probably a pretty good sign you need to move up to the next size compressor ;) I was merely using these as examples of what the Miata world sees from a positive-displacement "Heaton" supercharger (and twin-screw) :)

BTW, what do RX-8's typically dyno at the wheels? I seem to recall some rumors of seriously low numbers that were possibly caused by engine management/traction control systems being thrown into limp mode due to the front wheels not turning on the dyno? Aside from that, I would guess somewhere in the 185-195rwhp range?

185 whp seems to be typical for the RX-8.

185 whp seems to be typical for the RX-8.
Red Devil,
As usual, you are on the money. That's about the average.
Paul.

MAF readings I've taken are about 220 g/s at max power. I can validate that one. I recorded in third gear the following:
RPM 8425
Advance 30
Throttle WOT
Lambda .8898985
Airflow in g/s 218.02
MPH 88.2388

I think if I was at .91 lambda, I would have made more power, but 200 to the wheels feels pretty good.

Our horses must be bigger over here. We only get about 170-ish at the wheels.

Cheers,
Hymee.

thats about where nemisis started i think. 175ish - 180

And it looks like the new 6-speed AT still has the 4 port motor...

Hmm, interesting. Wonder where they dug up 15hp then? Could be a typo I guess, but I hope not. More than 15 with the switch to SAE.

^^ Either that or a higher redline afforded by the new tranny combined with the SAE rating gave the engine a boost. Not really sure though. I'd like to know what the REAL story is...

Isn't this the axial flow thread?

Isn't this the axial flow thread?


Hmm I though it was just me.. I did not see when lanes was changed.. ha ha

So, lets get it back on track then :)

If RAP makes a S/C that makes 80 lb/min of air, and takes 100HP to drive the thing, he should end up with 8 x 80 = 640HP, less 100 HP to drive the blower = 540 HP.

Cool :)

Note well: Numbers made up!!!!

Cheers,
Hymee.

Speaking of axial flow... How many more years until it's ready?

^^ Either that or a higher redline afforded by the new tranny combined with the SAE rating gave the engine a boost. Not really sure though. I'd like to know what the REAL story is...

Its the 6port used with the 6AT. thats the truth.

^with the lower 4 port redline.

Speaking of axial flow... How many more years until it's ready?

It'll be ready when I say it'll be ready. Right now I'm pouring all my efforts into rebuilding my house. When I get five minutes I'll give Richard a bell, we'll nut through any niggles the project has outstanding.....and release it to market.

PM me if you want pictures of the ongoing construction at Château Gomez. You'll get some kind of idea how long it'll be before Richard and I can get together.

Cheers,

Gomez.

Its the 6port used with the 6AT. thats the truth.

With "4-port" in it's name/description ! ? ! ?

Cheers,
Hymee.

With "4-port" in it's name/description ! ? ! ?



Website typo?

Website typo?

'spose so. Just blindly accepting what Japan 8 posted.

Cheers,
Hymee.

^^ could be a website typo, but companies this size supposedly heavily check the copy and the UAT pages before uploading the to the Production server. This doesn't mean no,... just that it seems odd...

^^ could be a website typo, but companies this size supposedly heavily check the copy and the UAT pages before uploading the to the Production server. This doesn't mean no,... just that it seems odd...

I guess they supposedly check the power figures before they publish them as well ;)

Cheers,
Hymee.

^^... ah... touche.

So RP... how is progress on the intake for the blower coming? (to get things somewhat back on topic)

Isn't this the axial flow thread?

It is. And I want a supercharger for my 4port. Continued production of said 4port would be very important to the development of RP's supercharger for my car, otherwise it probably ain't gonna happen.

Hurry up Hymee! :)

^^ Exactly! Hurry up someone! please i mean.

Post some more pics RP - I need to see what's happening
:jump:

OK, so just so you know, you can have my front Mazdaspeed Strut Tower Bar when you pry it from my cold dead fingers :) Make sure I can keep it.

Nemesis maybe it is just my car.. but do you see an empty spot under your hood where a SC can fit? :scratchhe yea some pictures now will keep me happy com-onnnn RP...even if it is the bolt to hold everything down :wiggle:

It may just be your car, based on that list of mods :eek: There is space. Trawl back through this thread and others on s/c and you'll see ;)

Nemesis maybe it is just my car.. but do you see an empty spot under your hood where a SC can fit? :

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1240990&postcount=2822

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1240990&postcount=2822


OMG I won't lie.. my hands started to sweat when I saw those pictures :Drooling_ ..R.P. I am sending some candles for you, so there is not reason that the current went out.. ;) and no reason for delay.....anyone wants to help me wit camping supplies.. so he can set up camp in his garage? also some :smokepoke

There is space. Trawl back through this thread and others on s/c and you'll see ;)

Here are more pics of something else that fits. (And has been running :naughty: )

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1106580&postcount=934

And on this page as well http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=36376&page=60&pp=15

So you see, you can get something to fit it there quite nicely ;)

Cheers,
Hymee

Why you fill my thread with that box of hot air????:hahano:

Youtwinscrewedhotairbastard.

LOL!

Just wanted to give you some confidence it will fit in. BTW - it is cool on the out side ;) Works very well.

Cheers,
Hymee.

So whats up? My warranty is oficially up and time to really have some funn with this baby!

I second that!!.... I just got my bonus and looking for something to spend it on. My warranty is out in a few months.

oooh, those both look nice. i wonder how hard it would be to have a twin s/c (hyme and rp) setup :D:

i know, i know. that's just a fantasy.

oooh, those both look nice. i wonder how hard it would be to have a twin s/c (hyme and rp) setup :D:

i know, i know. that's just a fantasy.


OK, Hymee and I will build it for you. Ask Hymee for a quote.

i'm afraid :Eyecrazy:

i'm afraid :Eyecrazy:


Silly man, don't be. Just be sure he quotes in USD, Australian dollars might sound worse.

I don’t think it has bee asked yet what do the experts here think about water/methanol injection with this setup.

Flow rate vs boost?
Flow rate vs Air mass flow rate?

Effects good or bad on a rotary?
Effects good or bad from the compressors stand point if water/methanol injection takes place before the compressor?

Yikes nearly 200 pages lol. Its probably been asked before but i can't read through all that....What engine management software are you planning on using with this?

Yikes nearly 200 pages lol. Its probably been asked before but i can't read through all that....What engine management software are you planning on using with this?


In the end we hope to use a reflash. The prototype may just use a standalone as the ECU hackers are not done yet. They will get it though and that is the best way to go as the stock computer can do everything needed to be done.

The re-flash sounds perfect, but what if Mazda comes out with a new flash that deals with other control logic? Let's say that something is not right with the traction control logic for example, and they issue an updated flash to correct it. Would your hacker flash need to be updated to once again reflash the correct maps?

I'd imagine it won't be an issue. Just like patching Windows... everything doesn't get overwritten when you are just patching IE. If they are uploading a new flash for ABS, then it won't have any effect on the "tune" that he uses. If a new "tune".... X flash... comes out from Mazda, well then that COULD cause a problem. But easily solved... he will likely have to provide a pre-programmed hand flasher inorder to load his "tune" (similar to Saleen and Kenne Bell). If the dealer should happen to overwrite your setup, all you need to do is bring your flasher with you and flash it back. Problem solved... eh?

Should that sort of thing happen then don't bring the car in to the dealer unless he is told not to reflash anything. Have him write it on the service order. But in anycase flashing it again is not hard just might take time depending where you are.

Should that sort of thing happen then don't bring the car in to the dealer unless he is told not to reflash anything. Have him write it on the service order. But in anycase flashing it again is not hard just might take time depending where you are.

check pm

beers :beer:

Richard, are you going to offer installs at your shop?

Hey guys, I dont want to seem lazy but after the 18th page I gave up. 200 is alot to read. Can u all sum up what exactly happened?
Richard were u able to make it work, whats the boost, and the cost, etc?

Ash

still under development.

beers :beer:

2 years and its still under development??????
Are they available for the hondas or over all under development?

2 years and its still under development??????
Are they available for the hondas or over all under development?


dont know.
might check a honda site..... tell us what you find.


beers :beer:

I think it was an idea to do it with the s2000. I think he is only developing it for the 8 right now.

ah ok.
Man that would be so tight...
SO what r u running under there, who me? oh a turbine lol

Hope it happens by mid 07 when i get mine!

thankz fellaz

ah ok.
Man that would be so tight...
SO what r u running under there, who me? oh a turbine lol

Hope it happens by mid 07 when i get mine!

thankz fellaz

when you get your what????

s2k rx8 sexchange????

beers :beer:

S2k development wont start until the RX-8 version is finalized and has started production runs (from the info I have gathered)

The RX-8 compressor is close if not exactly the same as the S2k version.

I am following both thread as my brother has an RX-8 and I am trying to talk him into getting one the AFSC for his once they get done and I drive an 04 S2k.

I will be getting an AFSC for my s2k as the AFSC is one of the most efficient compressors out there today. And I like to do thing a little bit different than everybody else out there. I am asking PR to make me a 12psi compressor for the S2k once the RX-8 and the S2k versions get into production.

If you want to see my crazy idea and plans check out
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=142&t=266584


Last page and look for the graphs and pictures of what I am planning for mine.

when you get your what????

s2k rx8 sexchange????

beers :beer:

what kind of a question is that?

RX8!!!! :)

I'll step up and say to the S2K guys reading one of the longest threads on the RX8 forum, that there are allot of posts that could be deleted from the thread. Sorry - but when Richard does not post for a few days, we get into off topic discussions. It has become a hard thread to read that's for sure. Maybe a mod could clean it up a bit, and move the off topic posts into a "Let's have an offtopic discussion with RP thread"

:grouphug:

I first stumbled on this thread (due to RP posting in the S2ki thread) when it was something like 150 pages long..

I read every post just to make sure I did not miss anything :rock:

I have been giving the S2ki guys updates on there own thread on the other board and attempting to answer there questions to keep this thread from getting loaded down with a bunch of question regarding the s2k version.

I'll step up and say to the S2K guys reading one of the longest threads on the RX8 forum, that there are allot of posts that could be deleted from the thread. Sorry - but when Richard does not post for a few days, we get into off topic discussions. It has become a hard thread to read that's for sure. Maybe a mod could clean it up a bit, and move the off topic posts into a "Let's have an offtopic discussion with RP thread"

:grouphug:
We could definitely do without alot of the posts here to make searching it more easy but going through a nearly 3000 post long thread post by post will take an extremely long time.

Not to mention if you took out all of the off toic material all you would have is a string of the same questions and answers for about 50 pages :)

What we really need is the ability to search within a thread. Then you could search for summary and go to the most recent post containing that word. They happen every 20 pages or so.

I'll step up and say to the S2K guys reading one of the longest threads on the RX8 forum, that there are allot of posts that could be deleted from the thread. Sorry - but when Richard does not post for a few days, we get into off topic discussions. It has become a hard thread to read that's for sure. Maybe a mod could clean it up a bit, and move the off topic posts into a "Let's have an offtopic discussion with RP thread"

:grouphug:
I'm sorry but Off Topic is the topic of this thread. When the thread starter gets into long discussions about early jet engines that he saw at an air show 30 years ago, I knew it was a bad sign. The problem is there is essentially no reason to subscribe to this thread or even open it (I open it about once every two weeks) because 19 out of 20 posts are worthless (including this one).

It is very frustrating considering the axial flow sounds very promissing, but this thread should be titled Happy Hour at the Ex-Officer's Club. I think on page 10, I suggested that this thread should be in the lounge; that hasn't changed.

When Richard started this thread I think he was new to internet forums and didn't divert side topics to other threads or start new threads about the side topics.

RP, I will delete this post myself in a day so you don't have to do it for me.

-Mr. Wigggles

RP, I will delete this post myself in a day so you don't have to do it for me.

-Mr. Wigggles

Uhhhm, RP can't delete your post.....RG can though.

You might say this thread is for veteran RX8Club forum members. Those guys know the drill.

The new guys can either read this thread.....or wait for the "Finally on Sale!!" thread..... :)

Way “Out of the Box Idea” :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

How much input HP does it take to drive the compressor at its maximal PSI/flow for the RX-8? And at what input speed is this HP at?

All thought I know it would take way to much power (voltage/current) to drive the AFSC with a electrical motor.

I would be nice if it was possible to drive the compressor at its ideal speed at all times.
Instant boost no more linear boost profile!!!! System would still be throttled but as soon as you open the TB anywhere from idle to redline you would have some sick torque. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

I did have the same idea and it should be somewhere in this thread. I believe since hybrids become more and more popular we eventually might see electric superchargers on sportscars.

Power = pressure times Volume per second divided by the efficiency gives you roughly the required power.

50000Pa x 0.0013m^3*8000rpm/60 / 0.7 (SI Units)
= 12.4 kW

At 8000 rpm it would need roughly 17HP in order to generate 7 psi of boost.
A lot but not impossible. But this is too big of a project for some aftermarket company. (This is only a partially practical solution: http://www.boosthead.com/home.php)

And some companies are already working on it:
Borg Warner was working on some electric supercharger (but can't find it anymore)
http://www.nexxtdrive.com/applications_automotive_supercharger.php?lang=en

At 8000 rpm it would need roughly 17HP in order to generate 7 psi of boost.
A lot but not impossible.

At how much flow? You need to know flow rate over time in relation to pressure as well. Compressing 1000 cu ft of air to 7 psi in the same amount of time as compressing 100 cu ft of air to the same pressure would require a different amount of power. If they were over the same amount of time, flow volume would have to be very different.

Not far off. I think between 18-21 to flow about 575CFM at 1.5 Pr.
You have to take in the belt drive, gears, bearings and seals. Plus there will be a loss from ducting. I only have the theoretical numbers plus what I can gleen from the test rig.

In the words of the Sundance Kid "You just keep thinking Butch, that's what you're good at."

Richard how many horsepower can theoretically make per cfm of airflow at ambient pressure?

Richard how many horsepower can theoretically make per cfm of airflow at ambient pressure?


I'm glad you said ambient, but that can be anything as long as that's what's outside. This is why lbs/min is better to talk in. We already spoke of HP per lbs prior to this. So you can get CFM by dividing by .066. The constant is a number I use just from experience.

Most turbo maps use .069 because they calculate to 28.4 in hg at 85f. STD correction is 60f and 29.92. This is not usually operating conditions. I can't remember exactly what a BAR is rated at but I think it is about 29.5 at 70f. This is more realistic to operating conditions.

I think the turbo constant is to conservitive and STD is to optimistic so that is where my number comes from.

So if we use my number and have 40lbs/min div by .066 you get 606 cfm. This on a good piston engine will relate to about 400HP. On the rotary the jury is still out, but is less. Probably 20%. We will know when this is all over. Meaning after the engine dyno tests.

Hymee made dyno runs with the Ren but I don't know if they took physical numbers of the intake air flow.


BTW, power to compress air is: lbs/sec X delta T X .0395
This is only the work done on the air, you must add all the other losses.

I read somewhere that BMW is working on a steam driven supercharger, with the steam a by-product of catalytic converter heat (insert detail). Food for thought

And it will come with a "cow catcher" for a front bumper

I read somewhere that BMW is working on a steam driven supercharger, with the steam a by-product of catalytic converter heat (insert detail). Food for thought

Let's look at this idea. First you have a water tank then pump it through a boiler/heatexchanger that makes it into steam. Then through a turbine that creates rotation and couples to the input on the supercharger. Some gearing may be required here.
then recapture the condensation and return it back to the tank.
Without going into the heatexchange itself I think we have enough hardware to make Rube Goldburg happy. :wallbash:

Steam is very dangerous stuff and I doubt you will ever get the feds to allow it.
If BMW is really working on this then you know why the charge so much for their cars.

Oh, I didn't say I necessarily endorsed the idea -- just that when the geeks at a company like BMW release information about something, it's worth adding to the mix. Anyway, here's the gear in good ol' Popular Science (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automotivetech/163cf51b6fd89010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html)

that is the stupidest thing i have ever seen. the numbers seem good but i would never own that. to superheat steam that hot you would have to be at a pretty high pressure. i can see it now... you get in an accident and the steam pipe under the floor board ruptures and you look down at your severed leg but at least your not bleeding to death cause its already cauterised, or your in an accident and steam fills the interior but you cant move cause your doors pressed up against your leg, although the worst is the thought of a family member being steamed like a lobster.
i apologize for the morbid pictures but that is not something that should be running throughout the body of a car.

MMMMMMM Lobster.

Fresh Maine Lobster...

Compared to the already dangerous things going on in a motor vehicle already, I don't see why it is so stupid. You need to have ideas and innovate, else we wouldn't be where we are today.

I read somewhere that BMW is working on a steam driven supercharger, with the steam a by-product of catalytic converter heat (insert detail). Food for thoughtIt's described on p.22 of the Mar06 Popular Science. They propose to capture and convert exhaust heat via twin circuits to two expanders delivering direct crankshaft assist via belt drives. No mention of safety issues, but looks like a possible step in the right direction, that is, if we're to perpetuate reliance on IC. Looks like the major makers are starting to take "oil peak" seriously, so are looking for efficiencies, especially since the inefficient 3rd world emerging economies can be counted on to suck up the downside bulk of the oil peak, before they wake up to the need to conserve petroleum resources for non-combustible uses. Which makes me wonder of RP -- Should your SC be expected to contribute equally well to a hydrogen fueled RE Hybrid, as well as the same motor running on conventional fuel? Given the current power numbers for the RE Hybrid, what sorts of improvements, both in hydrogen and gas fueled modes, might we see from your device? Curiouser and curiouser!

And I'm not so sure this new-fangled "gasoline" stuff should be allowed for use in motorcars. What if the carriage is involved in a prang-up and one of the supply lines ruptures and sprays the sinister stuff into the passenger compartment? Internal combustion becomes external! Think of the conflagration!

-Kabong

Let's look at this idea. First you have a water tank then pump it through a boiler/heatexchanger that makes it into steam. Then through a turbine that creates rotation and couples to the input on the supercharger. Some gearing may be required here.
then recapture the condensation and return it back to the tank.
Without going into the heatexchange itself I think we have enough hardware to make Rube Goldburg happy. :wallbash:

Steam is very dangerous stuff and I doubt you will ever get the feds to allow it.
If BMW is really working on this then you know why the charge so much for their cars.

Cool, someone is finally implementing at least part of my idea, although they've missed a few important details! A rotary makes even more heat at the exhaust, so this is especially poignant.

Go do a search for Bruce Crower and his 6 stroke project. That is an interesting use of steam. I find BMW's method to be a waste of complexity and weight.

Edit: Here it is:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060227/FREE/302270007/1023/THISWEEKSISSUE

both in hydrogen and gas fueled modes, might we see from your device? Curiouser and curiouser!

it takes more energy to create the hydrogen than you realise from using the hydrogen in a vehicle.

Alcohol is a mutch better alternative than hydrogen, but there is not enough corn in the world to make enough alcohol, and at current fuel prices it costs way too much to produce. Now if we used something with much more inherent energy stores that grows fast such as sugar cane and sugar beets etc. it may make a decent alternative. I would be much more inclined to burn alcohol (with a trace fuel to be able to see it burn) than ever run something like hydrogen which is extremly dangerous not so much by the flamability but rather by the transportation, delivery and storage of a highly compressed explosive.

the idea would be electric cars running on huge non chemical (think capacitor) storage mediums that are recharged with solar panels, geothermal and linear flow hydroelectric turbines.

The BMW method is pretty complex, but it's at least a closed system.

And it's true a rotary engine due to its inefficiency and hotter exhaust gas would benefit from BMW's turbosteamer more than a conventional engine.

My question would why don't they use to turbosteamer to run a generator and store the energy in a battery instead of a boiler (which might explode). This would make the system more flexible and probably less dangerous.
Besides, you'd have enough electric energy on tap to drive an electric supercharger or a flywheel motor. For free.

Compared to the already dangerous things going on in a motor vehicle already, I don't see why it is so stupid. You need to have ideas and innovate, else we wouldn't be where we are today.

Yeah they said the Wright brothers were crazy too, and look how their contraption turned out. ;)

it takes more energy to create the hydrogen than you realise from using the hydrogen in a vehicle.

Alcohol is a mutch better alternative than hydrogen, but there is not enough corn in the world to make enough alcohol, and at current fuel prices it costs way too much to produce. Now if we used something with much more inherent energy stores that grows fast such as sugar cane and sugar beets etc. it may make a decent alternative. I would be much more inclined to burn alcohol (with a trace fuel to be able to see it burn) than ever run something like hydrogen which is extremly dangerous not so much by the flamability but rather by the transportation, delivery and storage of a highly compressed explosive.

the idea would be electric cars running on huge non chemical (think capacitor) storage mediums that are recharged with solar panels, geothermal and linear flow hydroelectric turbines.

I was reading something about gasoline getting mixtures getting more "green" with alcohol and they are on the rise at a great rate. I wish I could find it, there was an article on cnn or physorg about genetically engineered corn which contained more sugar in it and could be produced with minimal resources that they were going to use for specifically for fuel, the company doing it is on the rise and says they should be ready in 6-10 years if my memory serves me correctly.

There are also a lot of unused sugar fields in Hawaii. Their sugar export has gone bankrupt and they no longer have any active mills.

I posted a link in another thread (and I think mentioned it in this thread which is an abyss where you'll spend a long time searching for what was said :D:) about how you can harvest hydrogen from algae.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,54456,00.html

in the midwest you can buy gasohol, 80% alcohol, 20% gasoline at pumps.
out here on the left coast no such luck. I can by ethanol and methanol at Nelson Petoleum in 5 gallon/55 gallon drums, but it is very expensive, as in true cost, not gummint subsidised.

of course I am willing to pay $5+ a gallon for automotive fuel, if it was of reliable quality, I currently am spending $10.09 per gallon for what I run in my motorcycles and I have to drive 20 miles to get it, transport it, and essentially fuel up only at home.

As long as we're derailing about waste heat recovery, here is yet another method:

http://www.powerchips.gi/

The projected Carnot efficiency should be 70%-80%, which compares to a 15%-30% Carnot efficiency of today's internal combustion motors and turbines.

:Eyecrazy:

IF this pans out, it would probably be a far better solution than the BMW turbosteamer or even the Crower engine. Just wrap these around your exhaust and radiator and have them charge a battery. Have a small rotary providing power from gasoline, and an electric motor for converting otherwise wasted heat into low end grunt.

Boy, I started quite a tangent here -- just another on the path tracking RP's progress

Yeah they said the Wright brothers were crazy too, and look how their contraption turned out. ;)

Reminds me of an airline analyst I heard a while back, who was lamenting the fact that in aggregate, all the world's airlines are seriously bankrupt. He said something like "if we'd have know this was going to happen back then, you would have gone out and shot Orville and Wilbur down!!" :spank: :Eyecrazy:

RG, I like the Crower 6 cycle concept. However, the (sad) reality is most innovation is evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Ford got behind the Sarich orbital engine concept 30 years ago, but it's still languishing. Mazda is really the only company that has stayed with a 'different' approach, but the challenge is how to make the rotary more powerful and efficient, so perhaps developments like axial flow s/c and closed system co-generative power might be key to that....which sorta brings us ...back...on...topic ;)

Hmm... improved exhaust ports + direct injection + Axial Flow S/C = :D: ?

Hmmmm..... I think Japan8 is onto something. I really like the sound of that. :rolleyes: Do you hear that mazda, get busy!

A DIG engine for a rotary should help the low end a little bit, and if they kept the other technologies (phased injectors and multiple intake lengths) it would keep the flat torque curve.



I was just wondering if you could use water injection on the Axial Flow? I know that you can't really use them on centrifugals, and this seems more like that than a screw or roots. I wouldn't use it if I got one, but it could be a good way to get a little more power and detonation resistance.

Compressor type has no relevance as far as water injection is concerned.

194 pages over almost 2 years and no moderator has locked this thread yet?

Unreal.