Volkswagen W-12: the one installed in VW W12 Coupe

The car's 12 cylinder engine is made up of two very thin V6 four-valve engines which are configured at an angle of 72 degrees. There's a joint crankshaft with seven main bearings to make up a V-V arrangement, i.e. a "W". The cylinder angle is just 15 degrees within the two V6 banks. This makes the construction, which is very compact in comparison to V12 engines, possible. With a length of 513 mm, a height of 715 mm and a width of 710 mm, the engine is very compact, and the engine weighs just 239 kg.

The W12 engine features variable intake and exhaust valve timing: the inlet camshafts can be continually adjusted through 52 degrees and the corresponding value for the exhaust camshaft is 22 degrees.

Engine: 72º W12
Engine location: Mid, longitudinally mounted
Displacement: 5998 cc / 366.0 cu in
Valvetrain: 4 valves/cylinder, DOHC
Fuel feed: Fuel injection
Aspiration: Naturally Aspirated

Power: 600 bhp / 447.6 kW @ 7000 rpm
BHP/Liter: 100.0
Torque: 620 Nm / 457.3 ft lbs @ 5800 rpm

The W12 engine in VW Phaeton is detuned to 420 hp.

while i agree that the w12 is a great engine and a marvel of engineering and production, i wouldn't call it the best piston engine. of course it depends on your criteria. perhaps they will find a better application for it as i have read several reviews which implied that in the cars they are putting it, the extra weight and fuel consumption outweighed any performance gains.

S70/2, developed by BMW for the McLaren F1 in 1992.

6.1 liter V12
627 hp
479 lbs/tq
7500 rpm redline


The cool thing about the engine, and the car, is that it was made to be a daily driver, so the engine behaves in a tame manner when driven normally. Check out some of the reviews on the car. That engine was, and is, a beast. The only thing that comes close in terms of N/A performance is the new Ferrari Enzo motor, but from what I have heard, in general, Ferrari motors are not very reliable. For a more mainstream car, I think the S54 engine in the new E46 M3 is also top notch.

3.2 liter I6
333 hp
262 lbs/tq
8000 rpm redline

There isn't another N/A engine under 100k that can match the efficiency, torque, and power that this thing has. The Porsche 3.6 liter f6 makes less hp with more displacement, and the I4 in the S2000 doesn't have a linear power band (it's also 15k less expensive).

Those are my choices. I think any motor to be considered should be N/A. Anyone can slap on a turbo or two and make a 600 hp engine out of a 6, 8, or 12 cylinder engine.

Hi Velociti

What are the dimensions (length, width, height) of the BMW V12 in the McLaren F1?

The Honda S2000 engine gets my vote. Non-aspirated 125 BHP per liter (in Japanese trim, only 120bhp per liter in the USA), 9000rpm redline, amazingly small and light for it's performance.

I read the Daniel Carney book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/076030906X/qid=1045368131/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-6227933-2044050?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) on the S2000 twice when I was thinking of getting one - there is some stunning engineering in that car. Honda could school BMW and Porsche in small engine design - remember 6 times F1 manufacturer champions. I just wish they would make a V8 or V12 to show what they can really do...

Originally posted by pelucidor
The Honda S2000 engine gets my vote. Non-aspirated 125 BHP per liter (in Japanese trim, only 120bhp per liter in the USA)

it's called NORMALLY ASPIRATED. a Non-aspirated engine would either A) not run, since it COULDN'T BREATHE, or B) is a rocket engine that has built-in oxygen tank for fuel burning :D

Pratt & Witney R-2800 Wasp 18 cylinder two row radial. 2,250 hp at 25,000 ft. A Ferrari engine wails, this engine roars like a lion.

Originally posted by ZoomZoomH
it's called NORMALLY ASPIRATED. a Non-aspirated engine would either A) not run, since it COULDN'T BREATHE, or B) is a rocket engine that has built-in oxygen tank for fuel burning :D It felt like B to me above 6k! Thanks for the correction - i was going to say non-turbo/supercharged or normally aspirated but mixed them up.

Pratt & Witney R-2800 Wasp 18 cylinder two row radial. 2,250 hp at 25,000 ft. A Ferrari engine wails, this engine roars like a lion. P-51D V-12 Rolls Royce Merlin (http://www.strages.homestead.com/files/P-51.wav). 515 mph level flight.:D

them engines seem pretty extreme
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Cadillac’s new V-16. 1000 HP and 1000 lb/ft. of torque all naturally aspirated.
Detroit's showstopper, Cadillac's Sixteen has the super-sleek, nearly over-the-top Cruella DeVille styling that had us reeling. The concept showcases a 13.6-liter, 90-degree V-16, an all-aluminum pushrod engine with 16-8-4 cylinder cutoff. General Motors says it's good for 1000 horses, 1000 lb-ft. and 20 mpg on the highway cycle. The hood opens gullwing-style, like the hood on Caddy's first V-16 in 1930. Rear seats recline. and the speedometer dial moves around the fixed speedo needle. And yet, it's not an outrageous concept with wacky interior or trunk ideas that would never see production -- there are real sideview mirrors instead of the cameras so fashionable on concepts. Think Maybach/Rolls-Royce/Bugatti-beater, and you're talking Standard of the World redux, the kind of car GM might just do if it has the cajones to take on the acknowledged leaders of the elite segment. At 223.3-in. long, with a 140-in. wheelbase and an overall height of less than 54 in., this car has the looks and proportions (along with the power) to put Maybach et. al. back on the boat. We're not saying they're building it... but it could happen.
More pics here (http://www.motortrend.com/autoshows/coverage/112_det03gal_cad16/index.html).

These were produced as aircraft engines circa WWII, but I have seen them used in tractor pull competitions currently. We're talking enormous amounts of torque (well over 1500lb/ft) going up to 7500 RPM.

As for more normal applications - the VQ series from Nissan is definitely a very good engine. It has shown a lot of flexibility and durability over the years, applications vary from midsize family sedans to SUVs to sports cars.

Another is the Porsche Flat 6 - this engine has been used for how many decades, and I've never read a complaint about them, turboed or otherwise. Small and compact, with plenty of power.

A V16 engine is way too big and heavy for a sports car.

The caddy with the V-16 isn't meant to be a sports car, rather a mode of luxury travel, ala Maybach and Rolls.

I kinda like this one, a 270 Offy:

While we most of us got caught up in the big displacement engines (myself included), one amazing engine we failed to mention was the BMW inline 6. They are silky smooth, reliable and can get some pretty impressive horsepower. The M3 makes 333 HP NA and that’s strait from the factory.

We should maybe break it up into 4, 6, 8, 10+ cylinder category.. :D

My votes
4 cyl n/a - S2000 engine
4 cyl FI - WRX STi
6 cyl n/a - M3 inline six
6cyl FI - Supra TT engine (could make upwards of 500hp with stock internals)

Chevy LS-1 V8

Used in the '97 - up Corvette and Camaro/Firebird, this latest generation 346-ci (5.7-liter) design retains the same engine mount locations and bellhousing bolt pattern that is common to all 90 degree V-8 small block Chevys. The aluminum Y-block design features 3mm thick iron liners and 6 bolt main caps, a crossbolt design. The aluminum heads used have a different bolt pattern, with each bore surrounded with 4 headbolts instead of the traditional 5. The oil pan is made of cast aluminum, and is available in the shallow Corvette baffled and gated "wing" design. The oil pan is a stressed member, with some of the bellhousing bolts threading directly into the oil pan. The oil filter mount is cast into the oil pan, and the oil pump is a front mounted and driven gerotor design.

There is no distributor as was traditional on earlier small blocks, as the LS-1 uses a direct fire ignition, with a separate coil for each cylinder. The intake manifold is of a tuned length multi-port, sequential fuel injected, composite design, uses a single 75mm throttle body, and has no directly connected throttle linkage (drive-by-wire). A serpentine belt system drives the water pump and accessories. The cooling system uses a distribution system to direct the coolant first to the block, thru the heads, then to a new mixing thermostat before being returned to the radiator. The results are 345 hp with 350 lb-ft of torque, with a 6200 rpm fuel cutoff. LS-1 is 100lbs lighter than the LT-1 and the long block weighs 397lbs.

Critical dimensions for the all aluminum LS-1 are:
Length = 28 inch (from the rear surface of the block to the tip of the water pump)
Width = 26 inch (with stock exhaust manifolds)
Height = 25 inch (from the bottom of the oil pan to the top of the intake manifold)
Total Weight = 460 lbs. for the stock LS-1 (including all accessories and stock exhaust manifolds).

Replace the stock exhaust manifolds with custom headers to save weight.

LS1 vs. LS6
The LS1 and LS6 shared many common parts such as block, crank, rods, pistons, oil pump, and much more. In basic terms, the LS6 engine in reference to the last two years of LS1 production is merely a heads, valve train, and cam upgrade over the LS1. The '01 LS6 engine was rated at 385 hp and the '02 LS6 was rated at 405 hp while the LS1 was rated at 345 hp. Aftermarket ported LS1 heads and cam will deliver better performance and more horsepower than a LS6 engine. The variation in horsepower between ported LS6 heads and LS1 heads is generally 10-20 hp, but the cost difference is usually over US$1,000. For the builder looking for more performance than a stock LS1 can deliver, ported LS1 heads and an aftermarket cam give the best HP/dollar ratio. Other options include ported throttle body and under drive pulleys.

http://www.LS1.com

http://www.LS1tech.com

The LS1 in a '93 RX-7:

Chevy LS6 V8

Block: Cast Aluminum
Head: Cast Aluminum
Power: 405 hp @ 6000 rpm
Torque: 400 lb-ft @ 4800 rpm

Displacement: 5.7L (5665cc)
Valvetrain: Overhead Valves (2 Valves per cylinder)
Bore x Stroke: 99mm x 92 mm
Compression Ratio: 10:5:1
Firing Order: 1 - 8 - 7 - 2 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3

New Cylinder Head Design
At the heart and soul of the LS6: new cylinder heads for better engine breathing. Larger ports improve airflow by 10 percent. Compression ratio is a healthy 10.5:1.

Refined Engine Block
The all-aluminum LS6 engine block has been refined to enable higher piston speed and higher overall RPM than the Corvette LS1 V8. Engine displacement is 5.7 Liters.

New Exhaust Manifold Design
The previous stamped-steel exhaust manifolds used in the LS1 have been replaced with a new cast-iron design for improved flow of exhaust gases, increasing engine performance and durability.

New Mass Airflow Sensor Design
The mass airflow sensor has been refined to increase the intake diameter and increase airflow.

Unique Camshaft Profile
As air comes through the new intake manifolds in greater volume, it is important for the air to enter the combustion chamber as soon as possible to produce power. For this reason, the LS6 has a new camshaft design with a unique profile that increases valve lift, allowing air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber, resulting in more power.

New Positive Crankcase Ventilation System
Because of the Z06's increased performance capabilities, changes were made to improve oil control during high-speed conditions.

Chevy LS6 front view:

Naturally Aspirated V8 Engine Comparison

_____________Displacement_____Power_____Torque

Ford Cammer ____ 5.0-Liter _____ 425 hp ____ 370 lb-ft

Chevy LS6 ______ 5.7-Liter _____ 405 hp ____ 400 lb-ft

BMW M5 ________ 4.9-Liter _____ 394 hp ____ 368 lb-ft

Ferrari 360 ______ 3.6-Liter _____ 400 hp ____ 275 lb-ft


Ford Cammer:

I'm a big fan of Subaru's engines.

2.5L horizontally opposed 4--cylinder puts out 165hp and 166lb/ft torque. Those are good torque/hp numbers.

Naturally Aspirated Engine Comparison

______________ Disp. ____ Power _____ Torque _____ Size

Chevy 427ci
LS1 V-8 ______ 7.0-Liter ___ 550 hp ____ 530 lb-ft ____ Small

Porsche Carrera
GT V-10 ______ 5.7-Liter ___ 612 hp ____ 437 lb-ft ____ Medium

Ferrari Enzo
V-12 _________ 6.0-Liter ___ 660 hp ____ 485 lb-ft ____ Large


You can buy a street legal version of the Corvette C5-R engine from:

http://www.katechengines.com

For the ultimate foundation for any LS1 high performance engine build up, start with the GM cast race block machined for wet sump operation. This is the same casting used in the Corvette C5R race cars, with the addition of bay-to-bay breathing and all operational oil supply galleys. This block is much stronger than any sleeved production cylinder block - it was designed by GM to have a 4.120" bore from the start, with a maximum of 4.130".

Corvette C5-R Engine:

When the fifth-generation Corvette debuted in 1997, it introduced an all-new small-block for the 21st century – the LS1. The LS1 retained the small-block’s longstanding virtues of compact size, simplicity and high specific output. While the production LS1 engine displaces 5.7 liters (350 cubic inches), the racing version is a brawny 7.0 liters (427 cubic inches)– but still LS1 at heart. In fact, the heavy-duty blocks and cylinder heads designed by GM Racing engineers for the Corvette factory racing team are based on the design of the production parts.

"The 7.0-liter engine combination allows us to run relatively low rpm to maximize fuel economy and reliability while producing extremely high torque numbers that make the cars very ‘driver-friendly’ on a road course," explained GM Racing engineer John Rice.

The key components of the C5-R racing engine are a heavy-duty siamesed-bore cylinder block and CNC-machined competition cylinder heads. Although these are purpose-built parts, they have close ties to their production counterparts."We designed the competition engine using as many production parts and processes as possible," said GM Racing engine specialist Ron Sperry. "In order to reach our performance targets, we had to modify the block design with a dry sump lubrication system. GM Powertrain engineers had some prototype block configurations they were studying for future products, and they made some of these available to us for the C5-R engine development program.

"The production and competition LS1 aluminum blocks share the same deep-skirt design, with oil pan rails that extend below the crankshaft centerline to improve stiffness and rigidity. Each main bearing cap is secured by six fasteners – four vertical fasteners that attach to the main bearing bulkheads and two additional cross-bolts that anchor the caps to the sides of the block. The cross-bolted main caps and deep-skirted crankcase minimize block distortion and bending under high loads. On the street, this stiff block structure reduces noise and vibration.

Externally the production and racing blocks are identical, with the same dimensions and mounting bosses. The chief difference between the production and racing blocks is the cylinder bore diameter. The production LS1’s dry cast-iron cylinder liners are fully water-jacketed with coolant passages between adjacent cylinders to enhance cooling. The racing version has siamesed cylinders without water passages between adjacent bores. This modification allows engine builders to increase the bore diameter from the production 3.90-inch dimension up to a maximum of 4.160-inch diameter for racing.

The LS1’s wide, stiff crankcase accommodates a long-stroke crankshaft without clearance problems. The production cast nodular iron crank has a 3.60-inch stroke; the racing engines use 4.00-inch stroke cranks machined from steel billets.The GM Racing aluminum cylinder heads are designed to meet the airflow requirements of the racing engine’s increased displacement and higher operating speed. Like the motorsports block, the competition cylinder heads have close ties to the assembly line.

"The racing cylinder heads were generated from the same 3D data files used for the stock heads," Sperry said. "The valve angle was revised from 15 to 11 degrees and the combustion chambers were redesigned to match the racing engine’s bigger bore, but externally they look like the production heads.

"Both the street and competition LS1 engines have evenly spaced, symmetrical intake and exhaust ports. The LS1’s intake ports are tall and narrow, a design that produces high mixture velocity for efficient combustion and complements the injector position used with the production sequential electronic fuel injection (SFI) system. The racing manifold substitutes eight individual throttle butterflies for the production engine’s single throttle body, but it retains the stock injector location.

In the end, the race car was made better by utilizing the performance DNA of the production Corvette, and the next generation Corvette C6 will certainly benefit from technologies and designs developed on the C5-R.

Originally posted by Supercharger
Naturally Aspirated Engine Comparison

______________ Disp. ____ Power _____ Torque _____ Size

Chevy 427ci
LS1 V-8 ______ 7.0-Liter ___ 550 hp ____ 530 lb-ft ____ Small

Porsche Carrera
GT V-10 ______ 5.7-Liter ___ 612 hp ____ 437 lb-ft ____ Medium

Ferrari Enzo
V-12 _________ 6.0-Liter ___ 660 hp ____ 485 lb-ft ____ Large



i think you've got a few qualitative errors there...

Naturally Aspirated Engine Comparison

______________ Disp. ____ Power _____ Torque _____ Size

Mazda RX-8
RENESIS _____ 1.3-Litre ___ 247hp ____ 159lb-ft ____ Small

Chevy 427ci
LS1 V-8 ______ 7.0-Litre ___ 550 hp ____ 530 lb-ft ____ Large

Porsche Carrera
GT V-10 ______ 5.7-Litre ___ 612 hp ____ 437 lb-ft ____ Extra Large

Ferrari Enzo
V-12 _________ 6.0-Litre ___ 660 hp ____ 485 lb-ft ____ Extra Extra Large


oh, and also it's "litre" not "liter" (as in "lighter") :)

guys where did u get thos infos? great find man!!

Originally posted by cueball1029
The caddy with the V-16 isn't meant to be a sports car, rather a mode of luxury travel, ala Maybach and Rolls.

......... and I would really love to see the fuel economy numbers on that thing ...

They need to build that new Cadillac. It has the Maybach beat IMHO. We should start a poll... what would you rather have- new Maybach or the Caddy?

Hey, I think I will! Going to the top of the forum...

My favorite engine is the Ducati 998cc liquid cooled Testastretta 90 degree V-Twin.

Ohhhhh, that V-twin music! :D

2JZ-GTE gets my vote. 900rwhp on stock internals... yes, it has been done before and people are running over 700rwhp on stock internals with zero problems of blowing their engines. :) Besides, it sounds so awesome :D

Originally posted by Rookie84
2JZ-GTE gets my vote. 900rwhp on stock internals... yes, it has been done before and people are running over 700rwhp on stock internals with zero problems of blowing their engines. :) Besides, it sounds so awesome :D

...i don't wanna start a flame war over this, but everyone knows the RB26DETT owns the 2JZ... it's not Godzilla for nothing.

...not to mention, both those motors are HUGE... really really big. i think that Supercharger could easily make a very vaild comparison between a very tuned LS-1 with some nitrous or something (good ol' American way) and your Japanese TT's with the turbo 700hp... in the size and weight per horsepower, the V8 just might win out, and at 7.0L of displacement in such a small package could probably rival MOST of the power output of either of those engines... but when you get into the crazy tuning with 12k redlines and 2.5bar of boost, well... heh heh, iiiii dunno. it'd be interesting.

welcome to the forum Rookie... wait, should i say "club" now instead????

Originally posted by wakeech


...i don't wanna start a flame war over this, but everyone knows the RB26DETT owns the 2JZ... it's not Godzilla for nothing.

...not to mention, both those motors are HUGE... really really big. i think that Supercharger could easily make a very vaild comparison between a very tuned LS-1 with some nitrous or something (good ol' American way) and your Japanese TT's with the turbo 700hp... in the size and weight per horsepower, the V8 just might win out, and at 7.0L of displacement in such a small package could probably rival MOST of the power output of either of those engines... but when you get into the crazy tuning with 12k redlines and 2.5bar of boost, well... heh heh, iiiii dunno. it'd be interesting.

welcome to the forum Rookie... wait, should i say "club" now instead????

First, Thanx for the welcome :)

Errr... please explain why RB26DETT is superior to 2JZ-GTE?? I know RB has more R&D time(came out earlier than 2JZ) than 2JZ... but that doesn't make RB superior... I thought 2JZ had stronger internals?? Also there had been quite a few 2JZs capable of revving over 9k rpm in street trim.

If we're talking best in terms of longevity, then the honors had to go the 4ag series of 4-bangers from Toyota. Those motors are disgustingly bullet-proof. They may blow oil past the rings after 150,000k, but after that, they're good for another 150,000.

Originally posted by Rookie84


First, Thanx for the welcome :)

Errr... please explain why RB26DETT is superior to 2JZ-GTE??

hmmm... in stock trim, the RB smokes the 2JZ power wise (ya ya, they CLAIM 280 hp, then you put it on a dyno and it's like +400)...
also, i THINK (the numbers are SOOO old in my mind... i'll mail someone who knows, and they can gimme a list of reasons) the RB is slightly smaller, and lighter too... basically, the two motors are very close in terms of ability to make power at comparable levels of tune, but there are definite reasons (that i don't know, yet) why tuners one-sidedly prefer the Nissan over the Toyota.

JDM Supras are a bit slower than USDM Supras. They have smaller turbos. USDM Supras in stock trim are known to dyno at about 300-310rwhp which is higher than claimed 320hp at crank. JDM Skylines dyno at about the same as USDM Supras, thus they don't rape Supras in terms of stock performance. USDM Supras and JDM Skylines run about same in terms of ET, but Supras trap speeds are higher when compared to R33 (don't have data for R34 so I can't really say but I don't expect too much of difference given weight and power of R34). Yes, RB is lighter but 2JZ has more displacement which means faster spooling of turbos. So, following your reasoning, RB doesn't "own" 2JZ. Each has their ups and downs and it really comes down to what you are looking for.

Oh, BTW, comparing stock power level is not the way to compare the engines. Stock power depends on what kind of turbo(s) the manufacturer put on the cars, and also the tuning from manufacturers(a/f ratio, boost level, etc.). Imagine what it would be like if Supras came with T78 from factory? Then 2JZ owns RB? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Errr... give me a list of tuners who blindly prefers RB over 2JZ?? (Well, Top Secret maybe but I don't see any other tuners...) 2JZ is very capable engine. Look at JUN's Supra for example. It went 244 mph(give or take few miles... just pulled the number from top of my head) on salt flats. Nothing personal but you don't have anything to back up what you are saying... and as a lover of 2JZ-GTE, I don't like seeing people blindly prefer RB26DETT or thinks it's the shit simply because of the hype (from not being available in USDM market). Only advantage of RB over 2JZ I see is the ability to rev higher due to the shorter stroke. RB has more aftermarket support because it had been around longer and japanese people love high-revving engines.

Originally posted by Rookie84
Yes, RB is lighter but 2JZ has more displacement which means faster spooling of turbos.
So, following your reasoning, RB doesn't "own" 2JZ.
Only advantage of RB over 2JZ I see is the ability to rev higher due to the shorter stroke.

:) yes yes okay, i don't mean to step on your toes: Supra's are cool.... i'm just sayin's all. the reason the turbos spool faster in stock trim is 'cause they're layed-out in a sequential format, as opposed to the parallel system on the RB, although the displacement would help too (ceteras paribus).
...one thing about boost on the Skyline though, is that you just remove the stock boost inhibitor, and presto, you're making sh*tloads more power. the 2JZ isn't much harder to do (modification just needs a boost something-er-other-thingy), but the RB's just that touch sweeter.

anyhoo, yeah, did some research, found out that the RB is smaller, lighter, and a way better revver (oversquare, and 2JZ is square) than the JZE which i believe are the primary reasons that it's preferred but tuners like VeilSide, Endless, Waste Sports, and Top Secret (to name a few)... actually, i think TopSecret took the Supra's chassis and tuned a 900kw RB26 and threw it in the front for some stupid video they made in the UK... :D
well, it's unfair to say "prefer" 'cause the AWD/RWD separation of the GT-R and Supra have them run in different classes, but whatever. :)

because of that rev factor, even though it does give up a lot of displacement, baring equalish turbos, you could probably get an RB to out power a 2JZ, but only at the top end.

...anyhoo, you're right that both has pro's and con's: i should have said earlier that i myself prefer the Nissan.

*edit: arguing one better than the other is like comparing a Ford small-block and a Chevy small block... they're really fairly competitve, with a few advantages and disadvantages, the biggest difference in popularity.

Originally posted by Schneegz
My favorite engine is the Ducati 998cc liquid cooled Testastretta 90 degree V-Twin.

Ohhhhh, that V-twin music! :D

Desmo valve train!! (Homer drools ;-)