Okay...

I just got back from my vacation in Maui. It was very fun, and a plus is that our villa was right next to California Governor, Arnold Shwarzaneggar's. When we headed toward our villa, we saw him and his wife Maria leave with their children and some S.S. guards. We stayed at the Four Season's, it was pretty damn nice; anyway, who cares about my vacation!!

I put the K/N intake back on my 8, (this is without the heat shield). Like the first time I installed it, I noticed that the car's shift speed was slower. So, after comtemplating what to do I went to the highway for a test. I drove on cruise at 75 mph in 4th. After 2 miles, I switched to 3rd as fast as I could on the shifter. I repeated this swicthing from 4th to 3rd for about 16 miles. After that, I drove the heck out of it on a back road and vuala!! My shifts have increased in speed and are back to normal. I will give the car a month, then see how it shifts then. I am thinking that the car has to get used to the more air, etc.

Soon, I am going to fabricate an aluminum heat shield on one of our CNC machines at work. With the heat shield, the K/N should get atleast the same HP as the Rotary extreme's, if not better because of the larger filter. IMO!

So... my shifting woe's are over and all I need is the heat shield. Now, this is sorf of off topic; but where is the best place I can go to get OEM size front and rear drilled, slotted, and vented rotors??

Thanks.

Troy J.

Originally posted by JeupRX-8
but where is the best place I can go to get OEM size front and rear drilled, slotted, and vented rotors??

Thanks.

Troy J.

Why, there was a thread several months ago about slotted and drilled rotors. They look cool, but what's the benefit?

Heat reduction and anti-warping is the primary advantage.

Originally posted by DavisRx8
Heat reduction and anti-warping is the primary advantage.

which is an odd thing to claim considering that cross drilling cast ferrous materials greatly upsets the crystalline formation created by the casting process weakening the rotor (ie, they crack fast), and decreasing the mass of metal there is to absorb and dissipate heat (ie, they get really hot really fast).

(oh, i don't mean for you Davis, just people who sell cross drilled rotors).

also note that this is not the same as casting a rotor that already has venting holes in it (which on factory show cars is for looks, and in the case of Porshe ceramic rotors could be for any number of things which are probably not reasons related to the design and function of steel rotors).

Keep in mind those of us who have been tracking the car have been mostly experience 0 brake fade. If you upgrade anything just get better pads. That is all you need and not even that for the street. The stock setup is excellent.

When we headed toward our villa, we saw him and his wife Maria leave with their children and some S.S. guards


U.S. Secret Service special agents protect the President, Vice President, and their immediate families; Presidential candidates; former Presidents; and foreign dignitaries visiting the United States. But not governors. I am sure they were his own private detail or state police but since he was out of the country on vacation my bet is private security.

Almost always State Police for a governor.

Mazdatrix has those fancy swiss cheese rotors.....

In regards to getting drilled, slotted rotors; it is so I don't have to worry about having rusty hubs on my rotors. The stock ones on mine are all rust, and it looks like white trash. Plus, the drilled, vented rotors DO make a differance in performance. And if anyone who has tracked this car who says there is no fade, they must not know how to drive @ the track. We have a Ferrari Maranello and had to upgrade the Brembo brakes because of fade. On a comparable note, or old BMW M3 had fade also when we took it to the track and those are only 13" around. Not very many OEM brakes are suited for a weekend at the track.


Troy J.

I haven't experienced brake issues but instead of rotors, I am installing stainless lines and doing a damn good bleeding job. That's all I'll need as these 8's stop on a dime!!

Charles

p.s. Not to be a wiseguy, but why does someone who has raced a Maranello need to ask we regular folk where to find a set of drilled/slotted rotors anyway?

C

Back to the topic, I don't see how fancy shifting will make your car say, "Aha! Now I know how to handle all of this extra airflow better!" But I guess you aren't having the idle problems most of us had. I got a refund on my K&N.

My 8 seems to shift perfect now, I believe its been in now for roughly 1-1/2 weeks. I just put my B&B midpipe in, and all I can say is what a differance! I noticed an acceleration increase throughout the powerband with my intake (I have a custom heat shield, and intake mouth in the front bumper), particularly @ 4500 to 7500. With my midpipe, the car feels great! It actually starts to pull you back into the seat when you gun it at around 4k & up. It was a major differance than with the stock cat.
I would recommend it to everyone on this board to get an intake, and a midpipe, and a catback. It makes the air run extremely smoothly and my car runs on the highway @ fewer rpms now. I am running roughly 750 rpm less @ 70, than before. I get my B&B catback in 3 weeks, then my engine tuning will be complete for the time being. The only complaint I have, is that my car smells like one of our snowmobiles after you rev the engine; but there is no cat to stop the emissions... Plus, my stock 02 sensor worked without a CEL!
In regards to the brakes, in June I am going to put the car on blocks at the race shop and we are getting 12.7" F & 12.7" R rotors drilled, slotted, vented. I am upgrading in the rears .8", it should look better. I am then going to powdercoat the calipers either red or yellow.

I will post a writeup when I get the catback on...


TRoy J.

You realize this is not really possible right?

jds

Originally posted by JeupRX-8

...
I would recommend it to everyone on this board to get an intake, and a midpipe, and a catback. It makes the air run extremely smoothly and my car runs on the highway @ fewer rpms now. I am running roughly 750 rpm less @ 70, than before.
...


TRoy J.

Did I miss the post about changing the rear end gears?

I guess Mr. TRoy J isn't quite such an expert on gearing as he is on brake installs for Ferrari Maranellos and BMW M3's. But he still knows how to drive on the track! Don't tell him that slotted and drilled rotors and larger brakes are much less a factor in stopping distance than the grip of the tires...

Okay, I am back finally back on the site (I was uber-busy for the last week). In regards to "changing gears", I didn't do that. I was merely saying that my car drives at lower rpm's going 70 on the highway, compaired to stock. I suspect that this is due to the intake and midpipe (more air coming in, and less restriction going out). I didn't say anything about changing gears.
When driving on cruise @ 70 mph, I was at 3100 rpm. I am now roughly close to 2750 rpm. Dunno what else more to explain regarding that.
And Icemastr, I know that tires play a huge role in stopping distances. I am getting HRE wheels (undecided on which style) and Michellin Pilot Sport 2 tires (245 front, 285 rear). This will even more help my car stop better than our crappy stock re040's.

Troy J.

You missed the point, the changing gear stuff was sarcastic. It is physically impossible for your car to be driving at the same speed in the same gear at a different RPM unless you did change that stuff. Power mods will get you through the rev range faster, but they don't change gear ratios!

jds

JeupRX-8,

What kind of gas mileage do you get with the K&N?

With the k/n I noticed a differance in MPG. Now, I drive like a banchi, so I think maybee 13 mpg. But I used to get probably 10-or less when my car was stock.



Troy J.

Im sorry this is off topic, but it reffers to the origonal post.

I dont understand how an intake can effect the speed you shift.
In fact I dont really think its possible. Maybe it was because there was a change in the powerband, or something...but an intake should not affect your shifting.

I think that the MAF sensor was screwed up @ first becuase of the differant air consumption. The computer just didn't like the air, it is what similar people have had with their "hesitation" during shifting.


Troy J.

Originally posted by JeupRX-8
I was merely saying that my car drives at lower rpm's going 70 on the highway, compaired to stock...
...When driving on cruise @ 70 mph, I was at 3100 rpm. I am now roughly close to 2750 rpm.

Uh, no. http://forums.probetalk.com/images/smilies/icon_lame.gif

Originally posted by JeupRX-8
I think that the MAF sensor was screwed up @ first becuase of the differant air consumption. The computer just didn't like the air, it is what similar people have had with their "hesitation" during shifting.


Troy J.
I could see the MAF sensor getting screwed up maybe. (is the filter oiled or not?)

But even so its not really affecting the shifting itself, but I understand what your saying now.

As to intakes causing odd shifting patterns... There is actually a TSB/RI on some GM's for this...

Owners of some 2003 Hummer H2s may experience lack or power, transmission will not upshift, or an erratic shift or stumble.

TIP: Check for an aftermarket air cleaner installed on the vehicle.

Some aftermarket air cleaners pull air directly from the underhood area of the vehicle at a higher temperature than the OEM airbox. The increase in temperature can cause erroneous readings from the MAF sensor, causing the above concerns. If an aftermarket air cleaner is discovered, reinstall the OEM equipment and re-evaluate.

Follow all SI related diagnostics if an OEM air cleaner box is installed and the vehicle still exhibits these conditions.

Taken from http://www.bobistheoilguy.com


Basically in quick summary...the short ram intakes (which may be drawing a good portion of air from the engine compartment) can actually draw in hotter air then the stock airboxes do...(Aka your performance actually gets worse).

Those big ass plastic boxes do do one thing...they help protect the inital intake charge from heat soak. If anyone of you have a can scanner you can easily check your intake air temps with a stock configuration, and then with a short ram (or K&N in this case). On the Mazda 6's at least, the stock airboxes had near ambient temps'...the short rams were considerably higher. (Almost 2x-3x as high)

As for cross-drilled bling-a-thon rotors....

The only time you see a performance increase going to these type of rotors is...

1) They are replacing older/worn OEM equipment.
2) The magazine doing the testing changes the tire/wheel for the second set of rotors. (Usually because the stock wheels don't fit over the aftermarket rotor/calipers).

3) In the case of 2, your actually seeing the benefit from better tires, not bling bling rotors.
4) Severely wet conditions. (Which is the main "reasoning" that some brake companies sell the rotors under).

If you ever replaced OEM rotors with cross drilled ones, did a comparison, then replaced the cross drilled with BRAND NEW OEM rotors...you'd see the loss in performance (as well as the pad eating goodness) of the super bling cross-drilled.

The general argument for cross-drilled rotors seems to be..."They help get rid of heat".

a) Air is less effective then metal at disappating and absorbing heat.
b) Cross-drilling reduces the mass/metal of a rotor.

Enjoy the taste of logic...mmm mmm good.

Here's a nice article on brakes and common myths surrounding them.

http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=32

thanks crossbow. nice post on the brakes.

Originally posted by JeupRX-8
Plus, the drilled, vented rotors DO make a differance in performance. And if anyone who has tracked this car who says there is no fade, they must not know how to drive @ the track.

Do you think you might have that backwards? Maybe it's the people who are NOT getting fade at the track that know how to drive? Put differently, if you are getting fade then you must not know how to drive @ the track...

(Go ahead, ask a performance driving instructor - you'll be surprised.)

Regards,
Gordon

Speedsource uses the stock rotors in their racecars... they have NO problems with braking. They have actually won a race too. Maybe they don't know how to drive at the track.

Yes, Speedsource is using the stock rotors but they are also using Hawk racing pads and a brake fluid with a higher boiling point.

The StopTech 14-in big brake kit for the RX-8 was tested in May's SCC and recorded fade free 60-0 braking in 103 ft. These are bigger front rotors, slotted (6 slots total). The car also has different wheels/tires that may contribute to this.

If you used the stock rotors, stock fluid, stock pads, and stock calipers...but just swapped the stock tires out for hoosiers....you'd probably stop in less then 100 feet.

Brakes stop the wheels....the tires stop the car.

Case closed then, StopTech used different tires. What a bum comparison. Put softer rubber on your stock '8 if you want to stop faster. Victoracers are good for a 10% reduction, I'd bet.

If you can already lock your tires, then how would more stopping torque help? Only if you're overheating your brakes... and you'd have a hard time doing that on anything less than a full race circuit (especially with racing brake pads).

Originally posted by JeupRX-8
With the k/n I noticed a differance in MPG. Now, I drive like a banchi, so I think maybee 13 mpg. But I used to get probably 10-or less when my car was stock.

Troy J.

So you're getting better mileage with the intake?

Wow, good for you.

I'm averaging around 14 with my auto. I'm afraid what the intake will do to my mileage. I may go ahead and install it and see what happens.

Thanks for the info Troy.

Got a question for you guys then...

Explain why these "wave" rotors can be superior to standard rotors, depending on application/useage.

Japan8,

I guess you decided to ignore the brake article, and the sub-articles and posts that went along with it. I'll instead assume you just missed it.

I'll post it again so you can have a better look, and quote from a specific section...

Article
http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=32

In a motorcycle or other extremely light vehicle the decrease in rotational inertia and unsprung mass might perhaps be useful (once other more efficient avenues are exhausted

. A slotted or drilled rotor will also clean off the brake pad as it passes the slots at the expense of faster pad wear. As such there are benefits for rally and dirt tracks.

On a motorcycle, unsprung weight has a massive effect. The effect of adding a single lb to the front and rear brake might have more of a negative effect then dealing with any of the negative aspects of cross-drilled rotors.

Additonally such rotors (as pictured above) are sometimes replaced on a per race basis...and as mentioned in the quotes, do have advantages in dirt/wet conditions over standard solid discs. Since this particular bike is taken out of context...I'll assume its just a racing bike, making each ounce of saved unsprung weight extremely essential for such a competitive sport.

For further information please try:
Ruiz, Stephen and Smith, Carroll. “Brake Systems and Upgrade Selection”

McCready,Tom and Walker, James. “Brake Bias and Performance”

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/brakebiasandperformance.htm

Corner-Carvers.com altima brake thread discussion.
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2002&highlight=cross+drilled

The famous Altima brake thread.
http://www.altimas.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32327&pagenumber=1

only third link works for me EDIT of the 4 at bottom

Actually Mr. Smartass, I missed the article the first time around.

Before you decide to begin with the snippy comments, try asking a few questions first... I'm not rotarygod, but I'm not a moron either. I do ride motorcycles as a serious enthusiast (not a squid!) and the people I ride with are almost all race ameture and own bike shops. I posted the pic and few words on the galfer wave rotors to pique interest...play devil's advocate. Why do you think I said "can be more effective" not 'are more effective than standard rotors.

Bike rotors are hardly so heavy that they'll make THAT much difference in braking. Your brake temps, pad material, SS brake lines or not will have a larger effect. If you want to talk weight, the rider giving up eating MacDonald's in exchange for a salad (- 5-10 pounds at least) will have a larger effect. Pads are generaly the key.

The Galfer wave rotors have plenty of uses outside of racing and are NOT used in professional racing such as GP bike or World Super Bike racing. I don't recall at the moment the rotor material, but I do remember than they use carbon pads or both carbon and metalic... one set on one rotor and the othe on the other... pads effective only at high temps and pads that are good from the get go.

There have been complaints about the rotor material on the Honda CBR954 (if I remember correctly)... i.e. warping due to excessive heating and cooling in the rain. One solution used in a magazine was to trade for wave rotors. Wave rotors were a solution I considered for my bike which only has a large single disk up front (which the manufacturer change to smaller double disks on later year bikes). I had severe overheating problems during the heavy traffic commutes to work in Tokyo. I tried different brake pads with little luck at first... Race ceramic pads and SS lines got things under control finally.

The wave rotors used in ameture racing are NOT used on short tracks as they will overheat. There isn't enough time between heavy braking for the rotor and pads to cool off. The extra material of "normal" rotors is needed to quikcly dissipate the heat (as noted in the article about brakes in general).

Lastly about inertia. The wave rotors do little for braking as I said earlier. What they do improve is handling. With the reduced weight at the wheels the bike becomes more... flingable... readily able to change direction. Weight transfer plays a bigger role on bikes. The opposite of cars, bike's front brakes won't lock up first... the rear will. As such proper supsension setup is also crucial in braking on modern motorbikes.

I do admit my original response was a bit...rude and I apologize for that. I guess I'm just used to people just skipping over anything that requires more then a few brief seconds of reading, and continuing to hammer in points which don't make any sense.

I don't ride a motorcycle, nor do I have much knowledge or understanding of their functionality. I only know what I've read, and thats miniscule at best. So I'll let you handle your part of the discussion.

I guess I came on strongly because I don't really see how a 2-wheeled lightweight motorbike relates to a four wheeled 3,1000 lb sports car.

Perhaps you were just trying to illustrate a situation where such a device gave more benefits then negatives?

Are you arguing that cross-drilled rotors are a decent investment for someone looking for performance braking in a 3,000 lb car?

redrx8, I edited the links so they should work now. Thanks.

Ok.. no problem then.

Bing... you hit the reason I posted that. yeah... other than the fact that they have 4 cycle engines (not always with bikes!)... there really is little overlap between the two. I was just trying to show a situation where these types of rotors actually do prove to be useful. But as you can see even then it's not always either!

My turn!

Ya I definitely see your point, and thanks for making it. I should have known I was being intrapped by a bike question and should have backed off. Oh well I was in a "man I wish I actually owned a mazdaspeed rx8" mode.

On a side note, since your a bike guy....

http://www.suzukicycles.com/Products/SV650SK4/

What do you think of this bad boy? I'm currently on a weight loss binge (exercise + eating less 5 lb cakes) and if I meet my goal I'm looking for a fun bike (will be taking driving courses) to zoom around on the weekend :).

crossbow,

Hey... everyday on the forum I am so envious of you guys with your 8's... and just the fact that the majority of you can commute to work by car instead of a packed like sardines, in a hot stuffy, full of smelly, perverse (bad if you're female) salarymen train. As you can guess... I hate it a lot.

Damn... you hit me with an easy but hard one to answer. You'll see why in a minute.

The good 'ol Suzuki SV. I haven't read about it recently... since my SV400S died. Damn crank bearing when out on it... $2,000 repair.. suffice to say this is going to be sold for parts on yahoo (no ebay in Japan).... the bike only costs $3,000- $4,000 used.

Anyway a REALLy good site (like this one!) to check out on the bike is http://www.svrider.com . The feelings on the present model bike were mixed when it came out... the old model based off the JDM only 400cc model was loved by all. It had a crappy suspension that was easily and cheaply upgraded. Despite the bad suspension (and of course was better after the upgrade) this bike can take bigger faster bikes in corners with the right rider. It is such an easy bike to ride and ride well. All things being equal, of course a brand new supersport bike like a CBR600RR or R1 is better handling... but most of us aren't Valentino Rossi or Nicky Hayden.

The riders on the SV forum are as passionate helpful (maybe moreso?) than here on the RX-8 club forum. Definitely check it out.

The older 99-'01 model was carburated and put out a little less power than the current fuel injected model. What people especially love about the older one over the new is the looks. My feeling... I like them both. I especially like FI over carbs... easier to tune and upgrade. Playing with jets and mixture screws sucks. :( Plus the new one has a cool digital speedometer. Handling is similar they say between them, so rest assured that you will still get a great handling bike in the new 650. The 1000 was a bit disappointing to many... doesn't handle as well, but it doesn't seem to be THAT bad. If this is your first bike, I especially recommend it. It is easy to learn on... it's easy to ride... very forgiving. Many experienced rides have left "faster" supersport bikes for the SV and never gone back. A few did eventually because... well when it comes down to it... the SV is like the 8... most want more power. Thus numerous bore-up kits and the anticipation and disappointment with the 1,000.

I will probably never buy another Suzuki. The SV was my second... my first was an old Bandit 400 (license limits me to 400cc). It had valve problems. My SV engine died...and there are reports that it happens with the 650's too. Not a totally odd occurance it seems. That combine with the plain fact that although Honda's cost more, you get it back in quality and fit & finish. My next bike will be either a RVF 400 or (get a bigger bike license) VTR 1000F or a CBR600RR.

So you can see the mixed bag for me. For you... I'd say hell... go for it. I can't think of any better bike to start out on.

I read 31000 lb sports car - holy smokes!! :)

Now THAT would be interesting. How many HP would it need to equal the -8's times? Stopping that sucker would need some real brakes. LOL ;)

Japan8,

Thanks for the site and recommendations! Appreciate it...now to just lose a bit more flab so I don't overweight the poor crotch rocket :).