So I stopped by a local Mazda dealer here in Dallas to inquire about RX-8 preorders (must put down $15k, no guarantee on price blah blah, basically "no") and they stated that they don't expect to sell any for under $10k over sticker, $40k in their estimation. I was really hoping this kind of lame price gouging wouldn't happen.. I think S2000s have been less successful than they could have been due to them getting a reputation for being unavailable except at ridiculous over-sticker prices. If it came to $40k, I'd rather just drop $30k on an IS300 or G35 Coupe even though those are really more practicality and less sport than I want (350Z exceeds my ugly limit, sorry). Hell, maybe I'd just spend more money maintaining my RX-7. :P

Am I being too hopeful in thinking this dealer was just bullshitting?

matt

Matt,
I'm sorry to hear this. It is bound to happen that some dealerships will try to gouge. However, there will be some out there that will not, and you just need to find one. When the S2000 arrived, Honda begged its dealers not to gouge the car, knowing it would give both the S2000 and Honda a bad rap. Well it happened anyways. I'm sure Mazda does not want the same to happen with the RX-8, but it will.

Most likely the RX-8 will have a much higher producion number and the gouging won't last all that long. Maybe think new Beetle, MINI, Thunderbird for 6 mos to 1 year and it should stop.

To anyone thinking about paying over MSRP, don't. If you keep the car a long time, the $40,000 you spent on it will be worth the same $20,000 or so 4 years later as the guy who paid $30,000 for his. Your car won't be worth any more than anyone elses, and you'll have simply wasted your money, unless of course you really just CANNOT live without it, and losing all that money is worth it to you.

Anyways, we can all fight the gouging by giving our business to those dealerships who do not gouge and treat us right. Perhaps a dealer discussion area of the forum would be a good addition to the board, at least in a few months when hopefully pricing and availability dates will have been released.

...Or you can move to Canada where its not legal to charge more than MSRP. :D

Unfortunately, gouging can occur when demand exceeds supply. The examples mentioned above (S2K, MINI, Thunderbird) indicate exactly what can happen when the dealers get greedy. When the Miata first came out, the gouging occurred, so Mazda dealers (and not necessarily all of them) have done this before.

Your best bet is to try multiple dealers if they are available in your area. If you go to www.mazdausa.com you can find several dealers (hopefully) close to you. just click on 'locate a vehicle' on the left hand side of the page. Step 1, just click next. step2 you can select any vehicle and trim level. when you get to step 3, enter your zip code and click 'Find dealership'. It should list the closest dealership to your zip code, but if you scroll down, there maybe other dealerships listed. When I did this for my zip code (45066), I got a total of 8 dealerships listed with address and phone #. There are a few that are a good bit away from me, but if I can save even $1000, it would be worth it to me to drive 60-90 minutes.

All of us here (and many others) should try to avoid those dealers who engage in price gouging. Out of the 8 in my area, I am hoping at least one will sell at MSRP (or maybe even willing to deal), and I can leverage that dealer against any other I choose. If you tell a price gouging dealer that another dealer is selling at msrp and you're on your way there now, they just may reconsider. They make plenty of money selling at msrp.

Sorry to be so long - Good luck to all of us.

Mazda has been without a showroom hit since the Miata, so it's easy to see dealers salivating over mark-up profits. Try and stay with a high-volume/customer service "Elite" dealer. Big Billy Barrett Mazda in Dallas is consistently in the top 10 nationwide and will most likely be allocated many RX-8's. Definitely do your search in urban high-profile dealerships in competitive metro areas.

Not a good idea to create a dedicated dealer forum because of libel/slander concerns. A guy over at the VW forum found out the hard way when a dealer sued him over his comments.

Originally posted by Toadman
Mazda has been without a showroom hit since the Miata, so it's easy to see dealers salivating over mark-up profits. TRy and stay with a high-volume/customer service "Elite" dealer. Big Billy Barrett Mazda in Dallas is consistently in the top 10 nationwide and will most likely be allocated a lot of RX-8's. Definitely search in urban high-profile dealerships in competitive metro areas.


Well, except that Big Billy Barrett is where they told me they'd be charging $10k over msrp :P The guy might have just been trying to talk me into a 2001 Miata since I was looking at those though.

matt

Heh..Big Billy Barrett is like Boss Hogg in the Dallas market. :D

Still, gouging or mark-up will only be what the market can bear, and dealer competition will be cutthroat for a few months. You'll probably have more problems being out-bid by another prospective buyer than having to meet a pre-set markup, but they both go hand-in-hand and it's the nature of a free market.

Try contacting Morrie's Mazda in Minnetonka, MN.
http://www.morries.com/Dealer/profile.asp?DealerID=226&MakeID=48&MakeName=Mazda&Back=Dealers

It would be much more cost effective to pay their $500 deposit, and be guaranteed to pay no more than MSRP. The savings will buy you the plane ticket and enclosed trailer shipping if necessary... and a healthy down-payment on a Protégé 5 as a grocery getter. ;)

I've heard that Rx-8 will or will be $43,000 US Dollars now instead od 30,000. I was wandering if anyone else has heard this, or is it even true?

The latest word deemed to be "accurate" is starting at $26k. :)

Rumors, rumors everywhere...

Okay listen come to Dover Delaware go to Hetrich Mazda on Route 13 and talk to them, I have eseveral friends thier and they are going to be sold less then 30k there. So just a hint for you guys who dont want to spend a extra 10k

i would never pay 10k over msrp for any car, no matter how much i want it....plus i'd rather wait for a few months after they come out, just to check out the reliability

Luckily (for me anyway) I work for an pretty large company that has set deals for Mazda cars. I can either get an employee rate which is a few hundred dollars under invoice by going through Ford's employee purchase program or I can go to a local dealer that will sell me anything but a limited production (MP3, Mazdaspeed Protege, etc) for $50 over invoice. Luckily I have this in writing so now it is just up to me to start saving.

I sure hope that the Mazda dealers tone it down when it comes to pricing this car. It needs to be a sales success for them and gouging is not going to help one bit.

I hope you're right InBlack... I can get S-Plan pricing (my dad is a Ford retiree) but I'm not holding my breath on avoiding RX-8 markups- the Ford A/X/Z Plan is not available on the new T-bird (and it can still sell for as high as 5k over sticker). It's the only car under the ford umbrella that you can't get special pricing on. So the plan isn't bulletproof. It seems hot-selling low volume vehicles need not apply...

So let's just hope they produce a LOT of RX-8's to satisfy demand... I'm very interested in the car now that my wife just got an '02 Miata. I'm itching for a similar handling experience with a substantial boost in power. And 4 seats.

But I ain't paying $1 over sticker. Time to take it up with the dealer...

From everything I have read/heard, the RX8 is supposed to have a pretty high production volume. If not then yes I am sure there will be some gouging going on.

Right off hand I can't remember which plan we get.

actionslacks: How is the 02 Miata? I love my 91. I agree with you on the 4 seater with great handling. That is why I am focusing my attention on the RX8. I hope Mazda and it's dealer network don't screw with the public.

InBlack:

the '02 Miata is incredible... but my wife got it with (cough) an... automatic. I tried so hard...

But yes, the steering feel and handling sold that car to us within minutes (she was originally looking at the Tribute). I never drove the previous generation, so I really can't make comparisons- but I tell ya what- I've never had so much fun in a car. Car & Driver once said it had "telepathic steering" and I can't possibly think of a better way to describe it. My brother-in-law had an earlier Miata & he was shocked by the effects of the variable valve timing (if you're already cruising along at 40-50 mph & step on it, the engine gets a 2nd wind and roars to the redline in a flash) & said the ride quality was noticeably improved. I'm still surprised at how stable it feels flying down the freeway.

But in all, It's got me very anxious to see what they're going to do with the RX-8. And you bet I'll be driving a 6-speed for the full experience.

First of all, a disclaimer: I am not, have never been, nor am I related to or friends with a car dealer or salesperson.

I don't see what's wrong with price gouging. In a free market economy, prices are set based on supply and demand. Sure, that's an oversimplification, but the only way dealers can get away with charging over MSRP is if people are willing to pay it. That shows that at that time MSRP was simply set below the price the market would carry, and is thus "too low". As a consumer and potential future RX-8 owner, I have to decide what price I am willing to pay, and do my best to get or beat that price. If I can't find a dealer willing to meet my price, it's because the demand above that price is beyond the supply.

There are a few ways around this:
1. Put down a deposit with a written agreement that the dealership will not charge you more than MSRP. If they want an obscene amount, it's your decision if you want to pay it.
2. Shop around. There are always dealers that will NOT sell above MSRP, even for a car that is getting far above MSRP a few miles down the street. These dealers understand the value of good will. There are lots of dealers that have been mentioned already.
3. Use the internet. This is related to #2, because over the internet you can find dealers in different parts of the country. I know a guy that couldn't find a SoCal dealer that would sell him an S2000 for what he would pay, so he bought from a dealer in Colorado and had it shipped to California to save many thousands of dollars.
4. Wait. Inevitably, prices will come down with time. S2000s are now going for below MSRP in some parts of the country. The RX-8 is rumored to have a much larger production run, so they should come down even faster.

No dealer can force you to pay more than you're willing to pay. The market will set a reasonable price, and if that price during the first few months is more than you're willing to pay, that's not the dealer's fault.

I plan on waiting, although I am considering putting down a deposit at the place I got my 626. I may even wait until the second year, just to save up a bit more cash.

So true. It's like buying a top-of-the-line PC, Flat screen HDTV, or a console game box. All have dramatically slashed prices lately and the market will stand what we are willing to cough up. It's no different in any other high-demand car company or hyped product.

But OTOH, if you got the coin and gotta gotta be the first on your block... :D

I say to rotor-heads with the cash, put down the deposit and "Carpe Diem" this February. ;)

Rich:

I agree with you that dealers have every right to charge what they want. I just will not pay it. I don't have to be the first to have anything (it took me 10 years to buy a Miata). So, that said anyone who is willing to pay over MSRP can go right ahead. They don't have anyone to blame but themselves when they go to resell and are upset by the amount of depreciation for the car.

actionslacks:

"the '02 Miata is incredible... but my wife got it with (cough) an... automatic. I tried so hard... "

Well no one is perfect. :p

If the RX8 handles anything like the Miata (even my old 91) it will be a great ride. I can't wait to see it up close and *gasp* even take a drive.

Does anyone know what the production numbers are going to be? If they are high enough I am sure that gouging will be short lived.

Price gouging is preposterous. I don’t see why it can’t be controlled. During the 9-11 incident their were few cases were gas stations started overcharging the gas, even though market conditions according to supply and demand agreed with the markup. They were penalized. Dealership should be too. I wish I had the time to show you mathematically why, but in the long run price gouging is not a good idea. I am getting an MBA in Economics, and I am currently an Operations Analyst for a company. Hopefully my opinion will carry some weight. It's only an opinion b/c I did not provide any empirical evidence.

In the long run dealers create a backlash of negative response when price gouging. They loose customer retention. Here in Orlando the Protégé 5 had a markup of $2000 over MSRP! Even the Celica had a markup of $3000. I think that dealers just mark up the car without doing any research. They guess that someone even if it's just 1-2 people in the entire city is willing to buy the car over MSRP. I do NOT think they are actually researching the supply and demand in their area. This is why price gouging is ridiculous. Don’t you think that someone in corporate headquarters spent years forecasting and setting price? They already calculated the supply and demand, and that’s how they arrived at the MSRP. If anyone works at a dealership, and knows someone that does the research in his or her area please let me know. I would love to audit their work.

One other note, if anyone doesn’t like price gouging please report it to corporate headquarters via 800#. If they get enough complaints they can loose their license.

Originally posted by n22lasing
Price gouging is preposterous. I don’t see why it can’t be controlled. During the 9-11 incident their were few cases were gas stations started overcharging the gas, even though market conditions according to supply and demand agreed with the markup. They were penalized. Dealership should be too.

There is no way you can seriously compare a company charging a price customers are willing to pay for a car in a "normal" market to overcharging for a resource like gasonline immediately after 9/11. That's preposterous.
IMHO, the government should not get their fingers into the business of how much companies should charge for their products. What happens if the government decides that a Rolex should be sold for only $1,000 instead of the 20k (or whatever they go for, I don't know) that they charge? Or if they determine that the Playstation 2 and X-Box are losing money for their companies, so they have to charge $500 instead of $199?
Just keep the government away of setting prices, I believe. Of course, there are illegal schemes and grey areas that need to be regulated. However, charging over MSRP on a hot car is very far into the legally and ethically "acceptable" range.


Originally posted by n22lasing
I wish I had the time to show you mathematically why, but in the long run price gouging is not a good idea.
...
In the long run dealers create a backlash of negative response when price gouging. They loose (sic) customer retention.


I'm willing to assume for the moment that you are the world's leading expert in this area, and that you're correct. That still doesn't mean anything should be done about it. If it's so bad for business, let those companies who charge too much go out of business, and price gouging will be a thing of the past. That's far better than getting the government involved. The more correct you are on this point, the more strongly I believe that the market will work it out.


Originally posted by n22lasing
I do NOT think they are actually researching the supply and demand in their area.
...
Don’t you think that someone in corporate headquarters spent years forecasting and setting price? They already calculated the supply and demand, and that’s how they arrived at the MSRP.

Economics is not (to use an oxymoron) an exact science. Don't you think that sometimes demand is higher or lower than is predicted by the people in corporate HQ? Take a look at the Aztec. :rolleyes:
Even if the people setting the >MSRP price don't do a lot of research on supply and demand in the area, it doesn't matter. They can set prices according to the local shaman for all I care. The businesses that do that won't do as well as others, so they'll be more likely to go out of business. Or, if the shaman has a lot of experience in the auto marketplace they could do better. If they set prices more in line with the market than their opposition, then stay with the shaman, and screw supply and demand research!
Also addressing this point is the fact that N.Y., N.Y. isn't the same market as Bismark, N.D. MSRP is set nationally, and the supply and demand are different in the two areas. I don't believe that the corporate HQ knows exactly how many cars each market can handle. It's just nowhere close to exact.


Anyway, your post doesn't convince me that price gouging is a "bad thing". If in the first month a car is out there are way more people that want a car than there are cars available, and some are willing to pay $5k over MSRP, the dealers have every right to charge that. If that alienates customers, then they will lose loyalty in the long run. It's up to the dealership to make that call. As I said in my previous post, some dealers understand the value of "good will" (I know I'm not using the term 100% correctly, but you get the point), and those dealers will do well in the long run. Some dealers don't see that advantage, but they may have more profit to spend on other things that may give them an advantage later on. Different business practices actually being put to the test is one of the great things about our economy. The intelligent and motivated consumer benefits in the long run, as well as the intelligent and motivated dealer.

I think my points above on avoiding price gouging work. Some people with more money than sense, or simply enough money that they would rather spend an extra few thousand dollars than shopping around, will pay the markup. How would you have the dealerships choose who gets the first cars if there are 2 cars and 10 customers? Some dealers will choose first come - first served, others will choose based on pre-order deposits, others will set the price way too high and see who comes closest to meeting it.
I believe the dealerships should have the right to make that call, and the consumer should have the right to choose which dealership gets his or her business.

...some auto manufacturers don't want to see certain cars in their line up being marked up rediculously. The manufacturer may see this as bad buisiness. If corporate Mazda decides the RX-8 is going to be the "ultimate" be all and end all of sports cars. One that's fast, versitile, and affordable and intigrate this concept into advertising, then potential customers would feel cheated if (low and behold) their friendly Mazda dealer took the "affordable" out of the equation. Myself as a customer would be pissed and not just blame the dealer, but Mazda as well if I was expecting a low price and was told thousands more at the dealer. Corporate Mazda could potentially lose buisiness because their dealers decided they wanted to be greedy and take an extra "cut".

Now, this is just a sort-of made up example using the RX-8. An real world example would be the selling approach Suzuki is doing with their new Aerio SX. This car is supposed to compete with the likes of the Honda Civic, Ford Focus, etc. The only way it can is to be offered at a price well below its compitition. If, all the sudden Suzuki started selling way more than expected, it may not be the dealers decision as to how much they can sell the car for because the low price is integrated into the advertising.

Now, I'm not sure about the advertising scheme of the RX-8, but I know Mazda/Ford is supposed to be taking into account the mistakes of the last Gen. RX-7---overpricing being one of the main issues. In addition, what the competition is offering from Japan this time around may also keep the price of the RX-8 down.

Since Canada has MSRP, I'd be happy to buy one at this end, (with your money ) and meet ya at the border, *for a small gouge*.... :D
Ofcourse, I'm just kidding, but if its lucritive, maybe I'll post mine on e-bay and go get another one after its sold.....

happy hunting

Rich it’s funny that you used the Playstation 2 as an example. During the 1st 2 months the Playstation 2 was selling on Ebay for well over it’s MSRP in the thousands right? However if you were lucky enough to find one early or put a deposit at any other stores Best Buy, Target or Wal-Mart you got it at the MSRP. Why didn’t Wal-Mart charge a markup at the Point of Sale? What is the difference?

My point of the post is that consumers should not tolerate price gouging. If its your local bank charging you $2 to access your own money, or your phone company for adding their expenses to your own bill. Sometimes Big-businesses take advantage of the little guy. As for dealers, you are right, they have every right to price the car what they chose, but does that mean we should be happy and accept it? Not me, and I don’t think you’d accept it[an inflated price] either. Ultimately you are right, your greatest point Rich is that we have a right to choose. My post is also for the dealers out their that will use this Myopic strategy to price gouge, hopefully they will see the negative backlash it can create and decline from price gouging the RX-8.

It is difficult to decide when does the government intervene. Why did they intervene on the Gas situation, but not on drug shortages? They allowed drug prices to skyrocket leaving Americans to buy drugs in Mexico or Canada, but they intervene in the Price gouging of gas? You bring valid points; my personal favorite is the Rolex b/c I was thinking that someone might bring that up. Anyway, I can tell that you [Rich], would not go to a dealer that is gouging its prices, and would avoid paying the extra cost if you could. I am glad. Forgive me if I may sound passionate in this subject, but sometimes I can’t tell the difference between price gouging and collusion.

“I think my points above on avoiding price gouging work. Some people with more money than sense, or simply enough money that they would rather spend an extra few thousand dollars than shopping around, will pay the markup. How would you have the dealerships choose who gets the first cars if there are 2 cars and 10 customers? Some dealers will choose first come - first served, others will choose based on pre-order deposits, others will set the price way too high and see who comes closest to meeting it.
I believe the dealerships should have the right to make that call, and the consumer should have the right to choose which dealership gets his or her business.” (Rich)

Now here is where I am confused, please clear this up. I think your point is that you are for free-market, choice, and competition. Let the business choose their strategy, and let the consumers choose their own. However many times you sounded like you approve of price gouging, yet at the end you want to avoid it. Do you just want to avoid government intervention?

InBlack

The corporation I work for in Florida gets similar discounts with all major auto manufacturers, but in my experience anything new or in high demand - thunderbird - cooper S - vette z06 etc, the manufacturer's won't even give discounts to corporate partners.

If you're corporate discounts are that good that's a great connection.

Originally posted by n22lasing
Now here is where I am confused, please clear this up. I think your point is that you are for free-market, choice, and competition. Let the business choose their strategy, and let the consumers choose their own. However many times you sounded like you approve of price gouging, yet at the end you want to avoid it. Do you just want to avoid government intervention?

Approve of price gouging? I'm not sure I even really understand what this means. I certainly want to get the lowest price I can, and am willing to spend time and energy to save a few hundred or thousand dollars. However, I simply don't believe price gouging is a "good" thing or a "bad" thing. I think that the market does a reasonable job in this case of finding a way to allocate who gets an item that is in limited supply and high demand. Price gouging exists, and I don't "approve" of it in that I don't think everyone should run out and buy for whatever the nearest dealer asks. I do "approve" of it in that I believe that the dealerships have every right to ask for whatever they want, and the consumer can decide whether or not to pay pay it. I thought I was most clear in my first post, where I said,

Originally posted by Rich
No dealer can force you to pay more than you're willing to pay. The market will set a reasonable price, and if that price during the first few months is more than you're willing to pay, that's not the dealer's fault.

I'd be interested in what led you to believe that I "approve" of price gouging. I probably simply wasn't clear enough in what I wrote. Philosophically I'm fairly neutral towards it, but personally if I decide to get an RX-8 (or any other very high demand car), I will simply follow some of the steps I wrote above to get the best price I can. If by following the steps above I cannot get MSRP or below, then I believe that it should be my decision whether I want the car enough to pay the market price, or choose another car. I'm slightly "for" gouging in that I worry about the impact on the freedom of business to set prices if there is a rule against selling for above MSRP. I suspect that this may have a long term effect of raising MSRP on cars that will have a high demand. However, I am far too ignorant in the fields of economics and business to argue that point, so I concede it here if it is too controversial.

My main point in my first post was simply that people who get so worked up about paying over MSRP don't have to pay it. However, if they must be the first on the block, and they must buy from the absolute closest dealer, and they won't put down a deposit a year in advance guaranteeing them MSRP or below, then they don't have the right to whine about gouging.

To address some of your other points, I agree wholeheartedly that it's difficult to see when the government should intervene. I actually do believe that the gov. should intervene (regulate) more than it currently does, but this (IMHO) is very clearly a case where they shouldn't.

Originally posted by n22lasing
My point of the post is that consumers should not tolerate price gouging.
I think my feelings on this are clear from my past posts, but I'll address it directly. I agree that it's important that people have the knowledge to avoid it, but I don't see anything wrong with a wealthy lazy person writing a huge check to be the first guy on the block to get his RX-8. It sucks for me, but I'd rather take 15 minutes on the internet to find a dealer that doesn't gouge.

Thanks for clearing it up Rich. I agree. I was hoping I could start a revolution with my post, like the Boston Tea Party. We can all go to California and start tossing over priced cars into the ocean! Let us all go NOW! Seriously, I wanted to emphasize your point however that we do not have to pay the mark-up. I know plenty of people that do b/c they really think they have no choice. That is very sad. It's one thing if you are rich, and lazy to do the research, and another thing if you are a victim, and manipulated into believing this is your only option.

Hi everyone, I'm new here and this is my first post! (yay...)

Just a quick reply to Grimace's statement that gouging was illegal in Canada:

::huh?::

Ive seen prices higher than MSRP in dealerships (Mazda dealerships, no less), often with no justification, isn't that gouging? If so is it really illegal (ie I'm within my legal bounds to file a report about it?)



:confused:
just wondering

Hi everyone, I'm new here and this is my first post! (yay...)

Just a quick reply to Grimace's statement that gouging was illegal in Canada:

::huh?::

Ive seen prices higher than MSRP in dealerships (Mazda dealerships, no less), often with no justification, isn't that gouging? If so is it really illegal (ie I'm within my legal bounds to file a report about it?)



:confused:
just wondering

Originally posted by RX-pecting


Ive seen prices higher than MSRP in dealerships (Mazda dealerships, no less), often with no justification, isn't that gouging? If so is it really illegal (ie I'm within my legal bounds to file a report about it?) :confused:


I am not absolutely positive, but I believe that charging over MSRP in Ontario is illegal.

My believe is based on:

1. I was told that this is true (bad example I admit)
2. My dealer is not charging me over MSRP for my RX-8 preorder ($500 deposit)
3. A coworker is not being charged over MSRP for his 350Z preorder ($1,500 deposit)

If I am not correct please jump in.

Originally posted by Red Devil
InBlack

The corporation I work for in Florida gets similar discounts with all major auto manufacturers, but in my experience anything new or in high demand - thunderbird - cooper S - vette z06 etc, the manufacturer's won't even give discounts to corporate partners.

If you're corporate discounts are that good that's a great connection.

It basically goes with whatever the Ford plan is running. For instance I could not get an MP3 at the employee pricing, but I could have gotten a pretty good deal through a local dealership if I had wanted to purchase one. The company I work for has close to 100k employees worldwide (although that is down from 150k just a year ago) and I work at the HQ. The local businesses are pretty good to us. :) That said it will surely come down to availability. I will just have to wait it out and see. I am guessing that since the RX-8 is slated to be a higher production than a true limited edition I should be able to get some sort of deal. I am planning on contacting a local dealership just to get a feel for what is going to be offered to me. I'll post a new topic once I have some info from the fleet manager.