Hello Everyone,

I have been reading posts on this board for about 2 months now (about how long I have had my 8), it has been shown by many including canzoomer, rotory extreme and others that there is no way that our engine generates the revised 238HP. Could Mazda still be liable for false advertising? I'm not complaining, just wondering?

Thanks

Boilermaker

Who cares...........

Boiler,

I think you will likely find that most people who once heatedly debated this for ages are now sick and tired of discussing the HP issues with our cars. I personally am not but I'm also not in the 'debate' crowd. I highly doubt any false advertising / liability would ever stick as the engine likely makes 'close' to these numbers at the crank under engineering perfect conditions. Any other time, I really doubt it. :D

I won't be happy until I get 300hp out of my '8' so the RX-7 guys in the club will stop making fun of me (j/k)

Well, maybe Navile meant... who cares, it is a LOT of fun!

If you ask this in the hopes that "if I get it and it isn't all that you'd hoped for... can I sue?! " then I have little respect for that. It would seem to me that this attitude makes people 'one of those'. You know, those that sue if they don't get their way. Talk about not helping the judicial system. Ties up so much time of judges (especially specific judges for the civil system could move to criminal) not to mention wasting so much of OUR money.

I apologize for my rant if this was not the reason that prompted your question, but this is just how I read it. Please explain.

I'm not trying to start a major debate or arguement, I test drove the car, loved it and think it has plently of power. I'm not talking about sueing anybody. I was just wondering if Mazda revised the horsepower, wouldn't they want to make sure they covered their as*, so that there was no room for interpertation, so that way they don't get sued by some butthead? I wouldn't care if they adversited 200HP for the 6spd, I bought the car cause it is a fun car. If I wanted muscle I would have bought a GTO or a Z.

Boiler,

I think if mazda went back and 'revised' their hp statement, they would open themselves up to far more potential lawsuits. If they stick with their original story then there is really just a lot of debate. This however is just my opinion. I have to agree that it sure is fun to drive.

Good for you Boilermaker! I was hoping to hear that! I would hate to think a forum member would be 'one of those' :D

As far as the legalities, surely their high-paid lawyers had to peruse all information before being final. -Or at least I would HOPE so!

(By the way, I work with a bunch of Boilermakers. Swell guys! Call me ma'am all the time :D )

Sanguine_Dark and Meowloud,

Thank you for answering my question with educated answers. Thats why I asked the question (hense, the meaning of a question - because I didn't know)

Me, I don't really care what the claimed HP is, and I'm sick of all the talk about it. Do I believe it pumps out the full 238? No, not really. All I know is I was 100% satisfied when I bought the car....and after the L flash it is just even better. Whatever the real HP is.....it's just a great car.

no car pumps out their HP at the Fly number. its more important about the HP number at the wheels that the dyno gives. wait until turbo and supercharger kits come out and you can be putting down higher HP numbers lol

It wouldn't go anywhere in court. The argument is that they could just claim that no one is testing with the same methods they use and this is the reason for different numbers. Dyno numbers can be messed with so even asking them to prove it wouldn't go anywhere as I'm sure they could find a way to generate the numbers. The engine is easily capable of this power level but most of us agree that it isn't tuned to give it to us.

It really just comes down to buying the car because you liked it for what it is. As long as you are happy, numbers on paper mean nothing.

I suspect that if you looked at all the fine print, you'll find something like "all specifications are subject to change without notice" . I'm no lawyer but I think that keeps them out of legal hot water for issues like this.

Tell me this. What 238 hp at the crank car will beat the 8 in the quarter mile. I don't know of any. will a 200 at crank hp car beat it. Idon't think so. My 8 will eat celicas, rsx-s, eclipses etc. It will stay even with a 240 hp accord 6 speed coupe. Those two are the same weight. It will also stay with or beat a 4000lb. 310hp 330 torque mercedes. 238hp seems about right in the RX8.
what exactly are you all comparing it to? You don't stand a chance with this issue. Wake up.

The sad thing is a few years from now we are going to get one of those class action lawsuit letters in the mail, you know, the kind that gives out 3 dollars to all RX8 owners while the blood sucking attorneys walk away with millions. I hope it doesn't come down to that, most of us enjoy our cars like it is and admire for it's handling, uncommon rotary motor, ride and looks. I sure wish Mazda would give it more power, if it is a problem, rather than some crappy lawsuit forcing the issue.

Originally posted by Roaddemon
Tell me this. What 238 hp at the crank car will beat the 8 in the quarter mile. I don't know of any. will a 200 at crank hp car beat it. Idon't think so. My 8 will eat celicas, rsx-s, eclipses etc. It will stay even with a 240 hp accord 6 speed coupe. Those two are the same weight. It will also stay with or beat a 4000lb. 310hp 330 torque mercedes. 238hp seems about right in the RX8.
what exactly are you all comparing it to? You don't stand a chance with this issue. Wake up.

Actually the accord will walk you, I've seen stock 6 speeds trap around 97 mph, it also weighs around a ton more than an RX-8. An RSX Type-S is pretty close to being a drivers race...

Originally posted by JimW
The sad thing is a few years from now we are going to get one of those class action lawsuit letters in the mail, you know, the kind that gives out 3 dollars to all RX8 owners while the blood sucking attorneys walk away with millions. I hope it doesn't come down to that, most of us enjoy our cars like it is and admire for it's handling, uncommon rotary motor, ride and looks. I sure wish Mazda would give it more power, if it is a problem, rather than some crappy lawsuit forcing the issue.

I think in order to initiate the lawsuit, someone would actually have to prove that the motor isn't putting out 238hp at the crank. I'm not sure if there is anyone around who has gone and yanked their motor with all the electronics and plumbing and hooked it all up to an engine dyno as of yet.

In that sense, why are people making the assumption that the motor isn't putting out 238hp anyhow? Using quarter-mile times and seat-of-the-pants feeling is no way to make a claim against a specific hp number.

Originally posted by GiN
In that sense, why are people making the assumption that the motor isn't putting out 238hp anyhow? Using quarter-mile times and seat-of-the-pants feeling is no way to make a claim against a specific hp number.

Traps speeds are a fairly decent measure of HP, the dynos have all been quite low for a RWD car that's supposed to be making 238hp at the crank.

Another question from all this...I've seen the many articles and specs that are out for the MazdaSpeed RX-8. They advertise 250 HP for that car. What are your initial thoughts about that? I would hope after the first fiasco with revising HP numbers that this will be more accurate.

I tend to agree from what I've read here and the dyno's I have witnessed. I don't believe it's putting down 238 even at the crank. Or the parasitic loss is the largest I have ever seen on a vehicle (one that includes a carbon fiber drive shaft no less) which makes that 238 figure moot to begin with. This car isn't a 0-60 superstar but when you add-up all that the 8 offers, it's a very nice package nonetheless. But yeah, I wonder where they came up with 238.

At a 15% percent loss to the wheels, people should dyno 200 rwhp and that's not happening in any form under stock conditions. Supposedly you need something like canzoomers mod to achieve this (to make it the way mazda intended).

Originally posted by IkeWRX
Actually the accord will walk you, I've seen stock 6 speeds trap around 97 mph, it also weighs around a ton more than an RX-8. An RSX Type-S is pretty close to being a drivers race...

Don't be so sure. Both cars are listed at 5.9 0-60 and 14.5 in the quarter mile. The Accord weighs 250 lbs more than the rx8 but has alot more torque. I test drove the accord 6speed. I liked the handling and ride of the rx8 alot better and bought one.

I believe that Mazda has a buy-back program because they didn't reach thier stated HP goal. I ready this in the mazda magazine I picked up at the raceway the other day. Mazda is not advertising this too much and the dealers may not even be aware of it...but it exists.

If you are upset about that HP figure you can thus return your car and be happy.

Originally posted by Roaddemon
Don't be so sure. Both cars are listed at 5.9 0-60 and 14.5 in the quarter mile. The Accord weighs 250 lbs more than the rx8 but has alot more torque. I test drove the accord 6speed. I liked the handling and ride of the rx8 alot better and bought one.

Meant to say 200 not a tons haha. When I say walk I mean from a roll, the Accord owners have been able to best some of the mag times and at least match them when it comes to the 1/4 mile, which can't be said about RX-8 owners. I agree, the 8 handles better, but when you made your statements you weren't talking about handling.

Katchoo,
The buy back was for those who preordered their cars, or bought very early on. The offer expired last year sometime around Oct. I believe. So I doubt anyone could get a buy back baised on the hp issue now.

Originally posted by Roaddemon
Tell me this. What 238 hp at the crank car will beat the 8 in the quarter mile. I don't know of any.

227Hp WRXs.
Car & Driver:
0-60 mph in 5.4 seconds
14.1 seconds at 96 mph 1/4 mi.

--kC

Careful KC, or you'll get labeled as a troll :p And before anyone starts going on about the AWD advantage keep in mind the WRX has run low 14s stock before but is making within 10whp of most RX-8 dynos, and trapping about the same, even with the high drivetrain loose and lower rating at the crank.

EDIT: KC is messing with me by editing his posts :D

Ike WRX,

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but where are your "dancing" bananas?

To keep it in the subject: I have to say that this car is doing something close to the posted hp ratings. I have gone up against a number of cars and been successful in my runs. There have been some ties but for the most part I have been successful against stock cars. VW's & Audi A4's no chance (stock hp ratings 175-220), BMW's 325's were smoked 330's were very close and i got a good launch, Honda's were smoked, Acura's well I've smoked them too. I will give some of that to driver experience since I have been driving high hp cars fast for years. Some of that is just the fact that the Integra's or Civic's are not in the same league as the RX-8. As far as the WRX is concerned it has the AWD feature everyone talks about and true it has quick launch times however the reliability of the AWD differential under hard driving conditions and over a period of time is a question. They are good cars but AWD is hard on the differential. I know if I drove my wife's A4 Quattro Sport the way I drive my RX-8 the differential would be fairly short lived. Just my 2 cents of course.

Originally posted by 93rdcurrent
Ike WRX,

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but where are your "dancing" bananas?

To keep it in the subject: I have to say that this car is doing something close to the posted hp ratings. I have gone up against a number of cars and been successful in my runs. There have been some ties but for the most part I have been successful against stock cars. VW's & Audi A4's no chance (stock hp ratings 175-220), BMW's 325's were smoked 330's were very close and i got a good launch, Honda's were smoked, Acura's well I've smoked them too. I will give some of that to driver experience since I have been driving high hp cars fast for years. Some of that is just the fact that the Integra's or Civic's are not in the same league as the RX-8. As far as the WRX is concerned it has the AWD feature everyone talks about and true it has quick launch times however the reliability of the AWD differential under hard driving conditions and over a period of time is a question. They are good cars but AWD is hard on the differential. I know if I drove my wife's A4 Quattro Sport the way I drive my RX-8 the differential would be fairly short lived. Just my 2 cents of course.

It's not the diff we worry about, it's the tranny. As far as I can tell my 'Nanas are still there, aren't they???

yup, still there "dancing" over and over and over and ov...

Wow another HP thread... I really dont know what Mazda can do at this point, its pretty clear that the car does not do 238hp stock. No one comes close to 200 - 210 on a dyno, unless they have a mod or 2.

I really dont care either way at this point. I suppose I can increase my post count.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
EDIT: KC is messing with me by editing his posts :D

I figured just putting the car and HP wasn't going to suffice, so I had to find a published number someplace. ;)

Yeah, a bit off topic....sorry. As far as the WRX is concerned it has the AWD feature everyone talks about and true it has quick launch times however the reliability of the AWD differential under hard driving conditions and over a period of time is a question.

Subaru drivetrains last depending on how hard you beat on the car. Beat on anything, and yep. it's going to wear. Even tho I'm a rocket scientist (not really) it doesn't take one of me to figure that out.

This AWD system has been around since 1992. Had a few tweaks along the way, yet has been unchanged for the most part (until the STi 6 speed). You don't hear much of it here in the states becuase the WRX hasn't been around for a long time, but in the other parts of the World, they have, and making 220 hp.

Living in New England, I can vouch for the longevity of the Subaru Drivetrain, espeically when comparing it to other makes like Volvo, Audi, BMW. There are more 'cheap' Subarus on the road up here than all the others combined.... from the 90s.

Just like the old advertising that Subaru is trying to get out of... "Subaru... cheap, and built to stay that way". The cost of repair, if any, is not expensive either. Why? These cars are made to be field stripped in an hour or two on rally stages... and that DOES filter down into the base cars. Eveythings accessable, not complicated, and fits really well (not to be confused with fit/finish for the interior).

Those that you hear with issues on the WRX are like those here with various other issues. The complainers get heard, those that don't have problems, are in the majority. ;)

BTW, just hit 50,000 miles on my 3 year old WRX wagon. 43 K in the 1st year with the last two it's been mostly an auto-x car... and you know what? I still have the stock tranny, clutch, engine. Figure in the past 3 years, the cars been auto-xed in about 50 events with close to 300 auto-x runs, with about 100 of them ProSolo launches (pro solo launches are drag race launches with a tree).

The driver makes the biggest difference in how long a car will last, IMHO.

I keep eyeing the RX8s on my way to and from work at a dealer. I've driven one at an auto-x. The only way for me to get one, according to my wife, "You'd have to sell the wagon."

Not this year... need to defend my title. ;)

Com'on. The wrx is a pocket rocket boy toy. I would'nt get caught dead driving one. Myself and wife went to a suburu dealer to look at one before buying the 8. We pulled in the lot and saw one righrt away. 1st time I set eyes one one. We both broke out laughing. Never test drove it. No need since it's so uuugly we did'nt even consider it. Same goes for the other econobox hot rods some keep talking about here.

Don't compare that ugly little toad thing to the 8. It is nowwhere near the 8 in class and style. The only thing in common is the price range. I don't think that little wrx thing is even rated as a sportscar. Why compare it to the 8 in hp or otherwise.

If I sound predjudice thats because I am. I thought this was a mazda rx8 forum. As far as advertized hp is concerned, Do a search on hp and you will find the 8 holds it's own against other cars(private street racing) in it's class in the same hp/weight range. I'm talking sportscars now. High hp Escort type econoboxes with big spoilers on the back are not my idea of a sportscar. They're just a "Fast and Furious" fad right now. Next thing you Know Geo Metro will be making one.

:lol:

Originally posted by Roaddemon
Don't compare that ugly little toad thing to the 8. It is nowwhere near the 8 in class and style. The only thing in common is the price range. I don't think that little wrx thing is even rated as a sportscar. Why compare it to the 8 in hp or otherwise.

I know it's a Mazda forum, and I understand it as such. But I'm confused, since when does answering your question with accurate data...
Originally posted by Roaddemon
Tell me this. What 238 hp at the crank car will beat the 8 in the quarter mile. I don't know of any.

... constitute an all access pass to your bashing of one of the most award winning and highly praised cars in the past few years on the road?

So you don't like it, that's fine... but you can't tell me that I didn't answer your question exactly as asked. Sorry if the truth hurts. (And is cheaper). ;) [Pushes buttons]

I don't have a big spoiler on the back of my car... it's a wagon. So I resent the fact that you're lumping everyone that drives a WRX into a class of street racers. Shall I assume that you're stereotypical of all RX-8 drivers, or just the small portion of it that thinks the RX-8 is the end-all-be-all of roadgoing (mmmm Porsche? BMW?)

Nice attitude.

Again, share the road with other cars. Owning the road should be saved for the track.

--kC

I'm just wondering how in the heck a question about HP legalities turned into an arguement over (2) cars?!?

Men, GEESH!

Like I said. Im predjudice. Like many other rx8 owners I think I have the cats meow.

Yeah, Porsh and BMW are more like it. I respect them.

Originally posted by Meowloud
I'm just wondering how in the heck a question about HP legalities turned into an arguement over (2) cars?!?

Men, GEESH!

Sharp cars and hp are very emotional things to men. Obviously a phenomenom that can't be explained. In this case we are pulled between the two. Conflict is the result.

Originally posted by Roaddemon
Sharp cars and hp are very emotional things to men. Obviously a phenomenom that can't be explained. In this case we are pulled between the two. Conflict is the result.
Geezuz, then I would hate to see what would happen if I started a thread about go-karts!! Ha ha :D

Originally posted by Meowloud
Geezuz, then I would hate to see what would happen if I started a thread about go-karts!! Ha ha :D

http://www.rm1-kart.com/download/rm1_perspective.jpg

:D

ROFL!!!! :D

Cool Kart, I wonder what the crank hp is.

As a WRX owner AND an 8 owner, and having abused both cars on the same stretches of road numerous times..

Unless you are prepared to clutch DROP the WRX (which is horrible for the Subie 5 speed) the WRX isn't walking away. In fact, if each car gets an aggressive but not abusive launch, the '8 edges out the WRX by several MPH on the same measured acceleration run.

False advertising my butt.

Originally posted by Psylence
As a WRX owner AND an 8 owner, and having abused both cars on the same stretches of road numerous times..

Unless you are prepared to clutch DROP the WRX (which is horrible for the Subie 5 speed) the WRX isn't walking away. In fact, if each car gets an aggressive but not abusive launch, the '8 edges out the WRX by several MPH on the same measured acceleration run.

False advertising my butt.


Alright, that's what I wanted to hear. Real experience tells the real truth about our 8s and crank hp. I already knew this but others have to wake up.

I must say that there are a lot of "morons" on this thread that have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to measuring horsepower.

The bottomline is that different horsepower dynamometers will spit out different results on teh same car depending on their design and how carefully the tester manages the variables. "There's no really accurate way to get engine HP from a chassis dyo," says Matt Harwood of MUSTANG DYNAMOMETER, a major supplier of chassis dynos in Twinsburg, Ohio. Some tuners use the so-called 15/20 rule, which assumes a 15 percent driveline loss for manual trannies and a 20 percent loss for automatics. Yet, Harwood says that he has seen losses as high as 35%.

Take a look at the MAY issue of "Car & Driver" and on page 128 you can read all you want about how DINAN measures Horsepower via the dyno. Basically, they spent $7,000 on a turbine to blow air over the front of the engine. Dinan also wires the cars with a battery of sensors that report when the airflow over the bumper is too little, when the inlet air is too hot, and when the water temps in the block and radiator are too close together. In fact, mos turbocharged and supercharged cars also "know" when their intercoolers aren't cooling enough.

The computer on the car reacts by "backing-off" the spark and turning up the richness - - - and as a result, turning down the power - - - to prevent catastrophic engine meltdowns.

how id mazda get caught falsly advertising the 8's hp at 250 anyway? if so, they woudl get caught at 238 right? I believe that they are on the money because otherwise their butts woudl be up the creek for doign it again.

Originally posted by rx8miami
how id mazda get caught falsly advertising the 8's hp at 250 anyway? if so, they woudl get caught at 238 right? I believe that they are on the money because otherwise their butts woudl be up the creek for doign it again.

Your right. the original hp as advertized was 250 in Japan but Mazda had to detune the american engine to 238 to meet american emissions and catalytic converter longevity. This was done at the last minute because the car was already in production. They offered to buy back american rx8s because they did not meet original hp figures here. If you buy an rx8 in Japan it will still have the original 250 hp. UK has even stricter emission laws and their rx8s are detuned to 230 hp. The ECU could be retuned to gain back the 12 hp. I'm sure the aftermarket will catch up to it, but then my car would not be emission legal in the US. the warranty may also be jeprodized.