I spent some time this last week tuning.

We were working on a few things:
1) Highway Fuel economy
2) Comparing the "L" flash to the "K" flash I had in before.
3) Working on making a tune map that removed the "dips and bumps" in the power curve.
4) Devising a map that will work with the old "K" and new "L" ECU flashes from Mazda.

I am doing a series of posts on this topic this weekend, and this is the first one.

As you may have heard from various postings the new version of our setup is now incorporating full ignition control in all versions, so that the difference "in the box" from now on is only the tuning maps provided.
Along that theme I have some good news for those of you who ordered Stage 2:
(Drum roll please)

ALL Stage 1 and Stage 2 units are now the same price!
$600

All Stage1 may be upgraded to Stage2 with a re-flash of the tuning map

All Previously shipped Stage1 units may be upgraded to the new hardware version and maps for free. All you pay is the freight charges.

More to follow.

Fuel economy results, all on the same stretch of highway, same road conditions, on cruise control at 135 to 145kmh (84-90mph)
Mostly on cruise control at 135, a bit of short stretches passing at 145. A few moments waiting for idiots to get out of the left lane.

Using Shell Optimax fuel, 91 PON octane.
rpm at this speed is between 4,100(135kmh) and 4,800(145kmh)

On "K" ECU flash, old Stage1 map:

litres Avg
KM Miles filled Speed L/100km mpg
326 203 51.3 135.00 15.72 14.96



On "L" ECU flash, old Stage1 map:

litres Avg
KM Miles filled Speed L/100km mpg
243 151 36.1 135.00 14.86 15.83


On "L" ECU flash, NEW Stage1 map:

litres Avg
KM Miles filled Speed L/100km mpg
184 114 22.5 135.00 12.22 19.24

I am so damned proud of that last one!

Whoa! Look at that last mileage jump! Holy cow! :D

So would you say that your Stage 1 now is easier to adapt to future potential Mazda ECU changes than before?

Also looking forward to more descriptions on how the L flash "feels" different and the revised Stage 1 as well...

umm....Wow

"ALL Stage 1 and Stage 2 units are now the same price!
$600"

Question.. If a stage one is puchased now but later wants to upgrade to stage two (or greater) and install the midpipe etc, how much will the upgrade for the ECU be (midpipe seperate)

Absolutely great work CanZ, You are the difinitive 'man' of ingenuity. Nice work on the MPG too!!

Now if only there was a turbo to go with all these goodies....(ha ha)

Oh yeah... and dyno plots too. :)

It sounds like it was very much worth the wait. Now I want it worse than ever :)

Thanks for the hard work.

Maurice

Thanks for the last e-mail , i will definetely be keeping a close eye on your forum .
cheers
michael

Originally posted by racerdave
Whoa! Look at that last mileage jump! Holy cow! :D

So would you say that your Stage 1 now is easier to adapt to future potential Mazda ECU changes than before?

Also looking forward to more descriptions on how the L flash "feels" different and the revised Stage 1 as well...
"L" flash feels smoother.
They did some interesting tricks in it.
Leaned out some areas a whole bunch, then retarded timing to compensate to prevent pinging.
Other areas that were lean before also received the ignition retard trick, as they had some cases of pinging on stock cars in hot, humid, sea level uses.

It is now easier to adapt adn revise our tuning maps as all models are now flash upgradeable.

We are about to start supplying a reflash kit, with cable and software to allow map upgrades for $75.
We also now have the full tuning kit with cable and software available for $150.

In the latter case do not consider it unless you are also prepared to fork out for a proper wideband lambda sensor, and logger, having it installed in the exhaust, and have some knowledge of what fuel/air ratios mean! If you do it blind I pretty well guarantee you will be causing pinging.
It is also really a good idea to install at least one pyrometer ( exhaust gas temperature probe and gauge) so you can keep an eye on that too. Certain combinations of ignition advance and fuel/air ratio will result in exhaust gas temperatures that will cook your catalytic converter.

Cost of upgrading a Stage1 to Stage 2 for ones we already shipped is free. Email me, and i will give you the details for shipping, etc.

Cost to upgrade Stage1 map to Stage2 map will be the cost of the programming cable and flash program.
One may also buy the full programming software and cable for $150.

One warning if you are buying the latter:
The maps we ship are locked on our units.
That means you have to start from scratch on doing your own tuning.

We have to do that for warranty reasons. If somebopdy monkeyed with a Stage1, went too lean, or too much advance, clobbered their engine, then tried to blame us, we can tell if they are running our map, or if they did their own thing.

Once you overwrite our original map, that one is GONE.
It has a unique ID in it, and is encrypted and password protected.

I don't have dyno runs handy yet, but have been doing some GTEech Pro Comp runs.

The following ones were done in conditions that are not exactly ideal for drag racing, so disregard the horribly low power and times. Just look at the two runs for comparison.
These were done in my car, absolutely stock, except with the Stage 1 turned on and off.
Road conditions:
Winter 17" tires. Nokian 225/45/17 "WR"
-9C (16F)
Two people in car, haf a tank of gas.
Running weight of 3,432 lbs (1560Kg)
Altitude of 3,000 feet (about 914 meters)

Highway which was clear of snow and ice, but a bit on the slick side. Slight uphill incline.
Both runs were done on exactly the same part of the road and direction.
Ignore the rpm settings as I had my calibration screwed up as I recently upgraded the GTech firmware and forgot to recalibrate the rpm calibrations.

Runs were done with a clutch dump at about 3,500rpm, and quite a bit of clutch slip to keep the tires reasonable engaged, and the car straight.

Black line run with Stage1 engaged.
Red line run with stock settings, no modifications.

HP/Time

The dip in 1st gear is tire spin when it came on at 4,900rpm.
The 3rd and 4th gear parts are most useful, as there was no tire spin.

Speed vs. Time.
0-60is better than a second faster.
Look at that nice flat line in 3rd and 4th!

GForce.
1st gear was pretty well useless. All i could get was tirespin.

[i]
On "K" ECU flash, old Stage1 map:

litres Avg
KM Miles filled Speed L/100km mpg
326 203 51.3 135.00 15.72 14.96



On "L" ECU flash, old Stage1 map:

litres Avg
KM Miles filled Speed L/100km mpg
243 151 36.1 135.00 14.86 15.83


On "L" ECU flash, NEW Stage1 map:

litres Avg
KM Miles filled Speed L/100km mpg
184 114 22.5 135.00 12.22 19.24

I am so damned proud of that last one! [/B]

So what about the details of:
4) Devising a map that will work with the old "K" and new "L" ECU flashes from Mazda.

with the NEW Stage1 map since that's what I'll be getting. I will try to get the dealership to reflash it to the L version while I'm getting the airbag recall in a couple of weeks. But I'm unsure they'll do the reflash since I don't have a check engine light.

So should I wait til I get the L reflash to use with the new map or is it ok to use the old version with the new map. (My unit should be shipping soon).
Thanks,

Adrian 1,

The dealer will re-flash it. Tell them you get the CEL while pulling away from a stop if they give you a hard time. I just had it done. They wrote it in my service order and even stated that they couldn't get it to happen and didn't show any codes from the ECU. They still gave the the latest version.

Originally posted by adrian-1
So what about the details of:
4) Devising a map that will work with the old "K" and new "L" ECU flashes from Mazda.



The map we are using now will work (and be safe) with the old and new Mazda flashes.

But, it will work best with the new one.

I tried to get some decent GTech runs this afternoon.
Since the last batch were done at -7C, and with a large (2565lb) passenger, I figured I could do quite a bit better.
So, went out today to do some runs.
It was bit warmer ( +1C / 34F).
Unfortunately the roads are pretty damp as things began to thaw.

Kind of ridiculous as I just could not get the tires to hook up in 1st gear.

So, I am not so proud of these 1/4 mile runs, but I think that what they DO show is informative.

One can prettywell toss out the 1st gear curves as useless. If I could hook up I would have pulled at least a half second better in 0-60.

On 2nd, 3rd, 4th it is a different story.
One of the big goals we are seeking is an even and smooth delivery of power.
Take a look at this curve:

Here it is shown as delivered HP vs Time:

Great work CZ!! Can't wait for my wife to buy my Father's Day present.

Um, maybe I'm misreading this, but are you REALLY getting peak HP up around 280 HP Maurice? Is this what your dyno is showing too? And is this for STAGE 1???

If so.... TOO COOL!!! :D :D :D

Putting some things into perspective regarding horsepower.

Todays GTech runs were not at the best conditions, but it still can give an approximate idea of power.

Vehicle weight today with me and fuel was 3,190lbs ( I had a full tank of gas).

Firstly, running at 36 degrees Fahrenheit, 2,800 foot altitude,
air pressure at 28.94 inches of mercury, 88% humidity, and the dewpoint today at 33 degrees F:
Weather conditions:
http://weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/forecast/city_e.html?yxd

Compensation factor using these:
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_dp.htm

Conversions of air pressure from:
http://www.disabilityuk.com/masterpages/weather/presscalc.htm

We see that I was losing about 5% of power due to atmospheric and altitude conditions.

So our power correction factor is 1.05.

Taking my best run today at 14.816 seconds, with a trap speed of 97.28mph, we get the following power calculations from a few websites :

http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm
194HP based on ET and 229HP based on speed.
Add the 5% compensation factor and we get:
204HP based on ET and 240HP based on speed.

http://www.rallyinfo.com/rihpcalculator.htm
193.86 HP at the wheels, and about 252.02 HP at the flywheel.
Add 5%:
204 HP at the wheels, and about 265 HP at the flywheel.

http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm
Based on trap speed:
229 at the wheels and 270 at flywheel.
Add 5%:
240 at the wheels and 283 at flywheel.

Based on ET:
194 at the wheels and 229 at the flywheel
Add 5%:
204 at the wheels and 240 at the flywheel

Obviously I lost ET on the wheelspin, so these are all skewed low on the ET based calculations, hence the huge disparity comparing trap speed versus ET methods.

Add these variations up and average and you get an average power of 216 at the wheels, and 263HP at the crank/flywheel.

If I could get my tires to hook up I would certainly do better. I pulled a 13.78 at a trap speed of 102 for my best run ever on a tune similar to this one, but on much better road conditions, so I figure I am now making around 275 at the crank, and 220 at the wheels.

Originally posted by Omicron
Um, maybe I'm misreading this, but are you REALLY getting peak HP up around 280 HP Maurice? Is this what your dyno is showing too? And is this for STAGE 1???

If so.... TOO COOL!!! :D :D :D
This is peak for a brief moment based on an accelerometer.
When you shift the flywheel is disconnected by the clutch, it stores the energy, then you dump it. For a moment you get the benefit of that stored power.

Disregard that peak please!
Real sustained engine driven HP at the wheels is around 220.
But in stock configuration I was getting around 175.

Look at Maniacs runs for comparison at:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17055&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Or my runs the other night posted on the first page of this thread.
Comparison to stock is the best way to look at these.
On Thursday morning, very early in the a.m. I got a stock run of
15.607 at a speed of 89.52mph.
I had zeroed the maps in the computer, so it was a dead stock run.
I had a passenger weighing 250lbs, and a half tank of gas, and my scale weight was 3,432 lbs.

I then loaded the maps, and ran the same section of road, same direction, same conditions:
14.825 at 95.33mph.

Today i had less weight, but could not hook up as well due to tirespin, but I still managed a 14.83 at around 98mph.

So, NO , NOT 280HP !!

Around 265 at the crank and 220 at the wheels.
On the map we are now shipping one can pull at least a 14.25 ET at sea level on good road conditions, with a decent driver, but not a pro drag racer.

Also, I do not clutch dump at 8,000rpm.
3,000 to 4,000 depending on traction.
I am sure a good driver, dumping at 8k, and slipping the clutch artfully could break 14.
That could be like Judge ito. How many transmissions do you want to break??

The main thing i was trying to demonstrate with these more recent GTech runs was how smooth the power delivery now is with our current tune.
I know some of you will miss the old 5,500rpm kick in the ass, but remember a lot of that was subjective, because it rose from basically stock power levels at 4,600 to much higher than stock at 5,500.
This results in a gain in the 1/4 mile of around .8 to 1 second.

Look at the speed and G Force logs. In 3rd & 4th gear there is basically no tire spin or wheel hop. The charts are almost a perfectly straight line.

It is no almost like an electric motor.
This means we are making the same torque across the rpm range
That puts a LOT of power "under the curve".

Very good info Maurice.

And yup - it is the "Area under the curve" that counts.

Would like to see some "in one gear" runs if possible, like 40km/h to 100km/h. Can the G-Tech Comp Pro do that?

Cheers,
Hymee.

(PS - gets Hymee's award for the days most informative post :) )

Sure, that is easy to do.
What gears, what speed start and stop?

The GTEch will log whatever you do, as long as you travel at least 1/4 mile.

Ok... it's not Hymee, but here's my request:

3rd gear, from 60 kph to 120 kph (or there abouts... just trying to show the flexibility of the motor at somewhat low revs up through the curve)

So, NO , NOT 280HP !!Actually, I knew what you were going to say about this... I was giving ypu license to explain it before someone else asked about it. :DBut in stock configuration I was getting around 175 {WHP}.... {Now getting} Around 265 at the crank and 220 at the wheels.This is what I was after. That's a 45 WHP gain, and with a Stage 1!!! :D

Well... that is what I was waiting for :).

I wanted to wait a couple months for the early adopters to work out any potential bugs, plus to see if any one blew thier car up ;). Also wanted the technology to mature a little bit more. I can not wait to see the latest Dyno's of the new and improved stage one.

Fuel economy + more horsepower + street legal +self install/uninstall = $600 to you very soon.

Great job!

Hi Maurice,

Very impressive job done, so far !
I'm very excited with the great results and the huge job that you and your team have accomplished.

But I have some questions : what about the new Mazda flashes for european RX8 ? Are they the same?
And if there aren't, did you have the opportunity to test your "new" stage 1 against an european mapping (stock or reflashed)?

Cheers,
Cosmos

Beautiful. I get more excited every day. Looking forward to my Stage 1.

CZ

AWESOME RESULTS CZ. WILL BE ORDERING SOON WHATS THE WAIT FROM THE TIME YOU RECEIVE ORDER. ANY UPDATES ON HOW THE STAGE 2 IS EFFECTED BY THE NEW MAPS. 45 WHP IS VERY IMPRESSIVE FROM A STAGE 1 AND IF IM NOT MISTAKING THATS CLOSE TO YOUR PREVIOUS PREDICTIONS OUT OF THE STAGE 2 KIT. COURIOUS ON NEW PREDICTIONS ON STAGE 2 AND RECOMMENDATIONS AS THE BEST MID PIPE AVAILABLE IN YOUR OPINION.

THANXS FOR THE GREAT WORK. MY HAT'S OF TO YOU FOR MAKING A GOOD CAR AWESOME. WATCH OUT PORSHE THE ROTARY ABOUT TO BE A MAJOR CONTENDER.

CZ

since you have the most experience with the new "L" map, in your opinion would it be wise for everyone (even if not using your chip) to get a reflash? Do you have any comparisons or info on how the latest Mazda map compares with the original map the first cars over here have with respect to hp or mpg?


btw - awesome results!

OK serious Question here Maurice, I have an american car in Germany and these bozos are tellin me I cant get my ECU flashed :( SHIZER!! anyway, is there anyway to incorperate the new flashes in your piggyback? Ill be ordering the cable and software from ya to upgrade to stage 2 so hopefully that will help me out?

Originally posted by Rx8Freehk
OK serious Question here Maurice, I have an american car in Germany and these bozos are tellin me I cant get my ECU flashed :( SHIZER!! anyway, is there anyway to incorperate the new flashes in your piggyback? Ill be ordering the cable and software from ya to upgrade to stage 2 so hopefully that will help me out?
Sorry, can't help with that.
The flash is done by the dealershiop, and they use the OBD port in the car under the dash to talk to the ECU.

Don;t worry, the maps we ship now will work fine with both older and newer flashes.

CZ,
Are you still recommending not to use the K&N typhoon with Stage 1?

Originally posted by hootersam
CZ,
Are you still recommending not to use the K&N typhoon with Stage 1? Or ANY aftermarket intake, for that matter?

Sorry to be a nuisance.....

What is the effect of the new maps for stage-1 for the UK buyers of the kit? Are you going to be shipping the revised kits to us, or will we still get the "original" stage-1?


-andy-

CZ,

Great data, now I entered next phase...

The damn I can't wait till it gets here phase. I am going to continue to watch this thread for more data on how to request a reflash and the results of more testing... this is great stuff.

Thanks Maurice.


Dave

PS... will be interesting to have a stock and "enhanced" RX8 to compare. I can't wait!!!

Originally posted by canzoomer

http://www.dsm.org/tools/calchp.htm
194HP based on ET and 229HP based on speed.
Add the 5% compensation factor and we get:
204HP based on ET and 240HP based on speed.

http://www.rallyinfo.com/rihpcalculator.htm
193.86 HP at the wheels, and about 252.02 HP at the flywheel.
Add 5%:
204 HP at the wheels, and about 265 HP at the flywheel.

http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm
Based on trap speed:
229 at the wheels and 270 at flywheel.
Add 5%:
240 at the wheels and 283 at flywheel.

Based on ET:
194 at the wheels and 229 at the flywheel
Add 5%:
204 at the wheels and 240 at the flywheel

Obviously I lost ET on the wheelspin, so these are all skewed low on the ET based calculations, hence the huge disparity comparing trap speed versus ET methods.

Add these variations up and average and you get an average power of 216 at the wheels, and 263HP at the crank/flywheel.

If I could get my tires to hook up I would certainly do better. I pulled a 13.78 at a trap speed of 102 for my best run ever on a tune similar to this one, but on much better road conditions, so I figure I am now making around 275 at the crank, and 220 at the wheels.

Wow, lots of variation from one site to the next. I get even more variation than you are because of my disproportionately higher trap speed.

Plugging in my best run to date (14.407 at 100.97 MPH) I get:
212 HP from ET and 257 HP from speed
211.56 HP at the wheels and 274.9 at the FW
and, from the last site (the most optimistic)
257/303 HP from TS and 212/250 HP from ET (wheel/flywheel)

That means an average of 230 HP at the wheels and 276 at the flywheel.

I wonder why the G-Tech shows such a significantly lower HP rating than the calculated methods?
Your average HP (from the G-Tech looks like about 150; you don't have the HP page open, so it is hard to tell exactly). Mine is similarly lower at 178 or so.
What is the G-Tech doing differently than the formulas on those WEB sites?
BTW - I don't have a correction factor. The temps and pressure at my altitude yielded a dyno multiplier of 100%. I don't know how much that factor really plays into power output.

I'm confused about your fuel economy results:

Originally posted by canzoomer
Fuel economy results, all on the same stretch of highway, same road conditions, on cruise control at 135 to 145kmh (84-90mph)
Mostly on cruise control at 135, a bit of short stretches passing at 145. A few moments waiting for idiots to get out of the left lane.

Using Shell Optimax fuel, 91 PON octane.
rpm at this speed is between 4,100(135kmh) and 4,800(145kmh)

On "K" ECU flash, old Stage1 map: 14.96 mpg
On "L" ECU flash, old Stage1 map: 15.83 mpg
On "L" ECU flash, NEW Stage1 map: 19.24 mpg



1. I was under the impression that your maps only adjust "wide-open throttle" conditions which are 85% or greater throttle positions. I wouldn't think that the throttle would be open that far on cruise control going 84-90 mph so why is there a difference between old Stage1 map and NEW Stage1 map?

2. If your Stage1 kit is now making adjustments for partial throttle conditions (like I would expect when using cruise control), won't the car's ECU "learn" about your adjustments and "correct" away your new partial throttle maps?

I'm having a real problem finding a dealership that knows anything about this reflash, or any reflash for that matter. I've used the term "L" reflash and "L" maps and they don't know what I'm talking about. I've called 4 dealerships in my area and I even faxed them the service bulletins that CZ posted in the other thread about this. Those bulletons make reference to the "L" calibration. Any one have any advice as to what I should be asking them for?

ya man, on those service bulletins, there is a part #, tell them to READ

Originally posted by Scotchee
1. I was under the impression that your maps only adjust "wide-open throttle" conditions which are 85% or greater throttle positions. I wouldn't think that the throttle would be open that far on cruise control going 84-90 mph so why is there a difference between old Stage1 map and NEW Stage1 map?

2. If your Stage1 kit is now making adjustments for partial throttle conditions (like I would expect when using cruise control), won't the car's ECU "learn" about your adjustments and "correct" away your new partial throttle maps?

1. Your impression was wrong - Canzoomer's mod has always been tuning the full 3D map, not just WOT. He has spent a huge amount of time tuning part-throttle operations, and has written a fair bit about that effort in various posts.

2. Nope, the feedback looks to the Canzoomer maps, not just at the original pre-correction map.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
1. Your impression was wrong - Canzoomer's mod has always been tuning the full 3D map, not just WOT. He has spent a huge amount of time tuning part-throttle operations, and has written a fair bit about that effort in various posts.

2. Nope, the feedback looks to the Canzoomer maps, not just at the original pre-correction map.

Regards,
Gordon

Thanks for your reply. Maybe you could help me out interpreting some of CZ's e-mails to me then.

At one point I asked him, "What are the chances that the computer in our cars will be able to use to O2 sensors to figure out your MAF trick and readjust its maps to negate the effects of the mod?"

He said, "Answer is they can't. The O2 has a range of "OK" that is quite narrow. It is not a wideband sensor. Basically it measures AFR between 13.7 and 16.4. As a result the ECU only uses it for partial throttle stoich conditions.
The ECU falls over to a fixed map at beyond 85% throttle.
In WOT conditions the map is derived from our box, plus adjustments from the barometric pressure sensor."

Again, in another e-mail I asked, "Wouldn’t it be best to leave partial throttle maps alone and only modify WOT (>85%)?"
He replied, "We do!"

So it sounds to me like he's saying that he's sticking to only modifying WOT conditions so that his adjustments are always based off the fixed maps.

I have not seen Maurice's maps, so I can't comment on what happens at less than WOT. He has seen my maps though, but he didn't seem surprised that I was tuning mid-throttle so I assumed he was doing the same.

On my E-Manage system, I tune at 20%, 50% and 70% throttle opening as well as WOT and the settings "stick". There is some fuel trimming that is supposed to be part of the ODB-II standard, but I haven't observed it actually taking place. I suspect that some of what it tries to do is dependent on what readings the PCM gets from the initial calibration of the MAF after a PCM reset, which is changed by the E-Manage and its interception of the MAF signal.

What is important to note, however, is that the OEM tuning is not nearly as outrageously rich at part throttle across the whole RPM band as it is a WOT. Therefore, it takes considerably less correction in those ranges to make them feel right (which is all that matters at part-throttle because if it isn't fast enough, you just give it more throttle).
Furthermore, you can run extremely lean at part throttle. In fact, there are parts of the OEM map that hold at 15.5:1 or leaner!
I have made some of the other parts of the map hold at stoich (14.7:1) but I haven't tuned for 15:1 or less. Perhaps that is where the fuel economy of the "L" map comes in.

Additionally, what he said there is incorrect.
The RX-8 has two O2 sensors, one of which (the unit before the CAT) is a wide-band, current-based sensor that is used (seemingly) at all throttle positions and A/F ratios.
Whether the OEM maps actually call for an 11:1 ratio or not is a bit of a question still. The PCM may still be allowing the MAF to rule over the WBO2S, which seems to be the case since I can change the targets with just the MAF table.

So now the Stage 1 is apparently a 40-45rwhp increase. Does this mean that Stage 2 will be higher?

I know stage 2 has more aggressive maps as well as ignition advance with a high flow cat. However, the new stage 1 seems to include ignition advance also.

Does this mean that the hp jump from stage 1 to 2 will be smaller?

-n

Is there any way to tell what version you have? Who knows what I got, A, B, C, D.......

I'm guessing no, huh.

Well, you can tell with the WDS at the dealer.
Otherwise, no.

At least you can determine if you don't have it (or better yet, test to make sure you do, after you get it flashed by doing the procedure listed at the bottom of this TSB).

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-007.htm

Whenever I try to depress the brake pedal 20 times I cant even do it 5. It's like the pressure from the brakes gets too great and I cant even press down on the brake 1 millimeter let alone what it would require to test this out.. what am I doing wrong?

David...

Quick Q.

Whats the fuel economy and power/map like with just 'L' map on its own?

davefzr,

You don't need to press it hard or all the way. Just keep pumping your leg after the pressure increases. .. even though it may seem it isn't moving much (or at all).

You don't need to press it hard or all the way. Just keep pumping your leg after the pressure increases. .. even though it may seem it isn't moving much (or at all).

Checked mine yesterday to verify it was reflashed with the 'L' version.

The oil pressure guage did what it was supposed to.

Is it eno0ugh to tell them you had bad gas mileage? Or do you need to tell them the CEL came on?? Mine did, but I gnored it.. about 2 months ago, and I've installed Stage I since then..

I would take the stage 1 out and take it in telling the dealership about the poor gas mileage and also the CEL. They shouldn't argue.

Originally posted by ranger4277
davefzr,

You don't need to press it hard or all the way. Just keep pumping your leg after the pressure increases. .. even though it may seem it isn't moving much (or at all).

Is that a bad thing? To build up the pressure in the brakes by pumping 20 some times? Sorry, not a car guy.. :p

It won't hurn anything.

Nope, not a bad thing.

aah! thanks. so does the pressure just dissipate after use?

Yep, Everytime you press the brakes fluid is forced into your brake calipers which in turn forces the brake pads out (pressing against the Rotors) causing friction. This friction is what slows your car down. When you release the brakes the pads release their grip on the rotor.

All,
You don't need to mash down on your brakes hard, just tap them lightly. All you need to do is activate the brake light switch.

Of course, you are doing this with the engine off;)

If you can't do it fast enough by using your foot, reach down and tap it with your hand. Like he said above, it has to be just enough to activate the brake switch.

Cool thanks for the info guys!

I guess I dont have the L.. waah. Time to finagle a local dealer..

i take it all new 8s are going to have the L map installed already correct me if im wrong

thanks

I took mine in for the lastest flash, but if you look at the SB, it gives you a VIN range of cars that will have the oil gauge indicator for this flash. My car was a latter build date, but still fell outside the VIN they higlight, so even with the reflash, you won't be able to know unless you take it in for the updates.

I just tried mine, and..........YES I have the L map. Maybe I missed this but are there multiple versions of the L map, or just one so far?

Sea Ray, what is the build date on your car? Mine is October 2003. I tried this procedure and didn't notice the oil pressure guage doing anything so I guess I don't have the "L" maps. Going to complain about gas mileage to the dealer (and rightly so since I get about 13-14 mpg). Even if the reflash doesn't improve the gas mileage, from what I read on Canzoomer's post it does help if you have the Stage 1 which I plan on getting soon.

Is there any other way to flash you ECU? Im stuck I think :(

Originally posted by Rx8Freehk
Is there any other way to flash you ECU? Im stuck I think :(

Take your ECU out and send it back to the US they can re-flash it for you and sent it back to you . (Easy problem solved )

cheers
michael

!?! awsome idea!!

Originally posted by Rx8Freehk
!?! awsome idea!!

Speak to Maurice (canzoomer), he could possibly organize it for you , it would mean not being able to drive your car for 10 days or so .

cheers
michael

scary thought

Hey... I just got the "L" flash uploaded to my car and I would definitely reccommend it even if your car is working perfectly. I wasnt having any problems with mine at all and was hesitant but I am glad that I did. It seems to idle better.. havent noticed the pinging in fourth gear and cant really comment on mpg yet for another week or so..

I'll update as I see things start to happen.

Thankx, David...

I had my recalls done today and told them I was getting poor gas mileage so they flashed my car. The printout showed that flash version as ##### - "K", I don't remember the # part. I just remember the "K", does that mean I'm still a version behind?

I would have thought they would have put "L" on there.

Syrenic,
my build date was Aug but it was reflashed in Dec when I bought it, then reflashed a month ago when I had the oil pan replaced. This must have been the 'L' version.

tripwire, your flash was not the latest and greatest. Canzoomer recommends the "L" version, "you got K", as it relates to his piggyback. Look at this TSB which shows the entire string that ends in K, does your match up?

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-024-03.html

I picked mine up from the dealer today. I got the "L" reflash, and I verified it, by doing the "20 presses of the brake thing." I got the indicator, so all is good.

tripwire, your flash was not the latest and greatest. Canzoomer recommends the "L" version, "you got K", as it relates to his piggyback. Look at this TSB which shows the entire string that ends in K, does your match up?

Doh!
Yeah, looks like I have "K". I tried the brake pedal test to see if it would tell me, but it doesn't do anything. My VIN falls outside of the range that is in that documentation, but at the end of the doc it says "OR" vehicles calibrated to version "L", so I'm not sure if it should work or not.

The doc also mentions that they should put a sticker in the engine compartment when they do a flash, but I don't see anything other than 3 port campaign stickers.

I emailed the service mgr. asking if they could get their hands on the latest version and hopefully they can and will re-flash it for me.

I didn't see any recent posts regarding the addition of an aftermarket intake along with the Canzoomer mod (either stage 1 or 2). What are the problems people are having or could have with installing a higher flow intake?

How much more difficult is it to install a stage 2 over a stage 1 besides the obvious midpipe replacement? If you replace the cat with a straight pipe (no cat) what else needs to be done?

Originally posted by syrenic
I didn't see any recent posts regarding the addition of an aftermarket intake along with the Canzoomer mod (either stage 1 or 2). What are the problems people are having or could have with installing a higher flow intake?

How much more difficult is it to install a stage 2 over a stage 1 besides the obvious midpipe replacement? If you replace the cat with a straight pipe (no cat) what else needs to be done? Far as I know, CanZoomer is still working on testing the addition of intakes with his Stage X kits.

As for the Stage 2, you basically have to add a midpipe or high temp/flow cat, and plug in the PCM piggyback mod. That's it.

Originally posted by brothervoodoo
At least you can determine if you don't have it (or better yet, test to make sure you do, after you get it flashed by doing the procedure listed at the bottom of this TSB).

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-007.htm


My manual transmission's VIN is BEFORE 40132647 but I am having the ECU reflash done today. I plan to perform the magical 20-press-oil-needle-sweeping procedure to confirm the "L" calibration. The only thing I am unsure about is the last point of the TSB procudure:

---> "Drive the vehicle and confirm misfire related DTCs are not stored" <---

how do i confirm if DTCs are not stored? what is a DTC?

Also, are they going to replace any parts related to "L" reflash?
I don't have the CEL problem.

Regards,
Max.

if your vin falls outside the range, the Oil gauge will not sweep. You will mot know if you have the "L" flash

Here's what the TSB states:
...............................
Manual transmission equipped vehicles produced after VIN 40132647 and automatic transmission equipped vehicles produced after VIN 40132607 ... OR ... vehicles with PCM updated to “L” calibration can confirm the clearing procedure was performed.
...............................


'OR' implies that even if your vehicle does not fall in the VIN range you can actually confirm if you have "L" calibration.

Am I missing something???

no, when I read the TSB, it implied you cannot confirm the "L" flash if your vehicle falls outside that range.

Originally posted by Broker73
if your vin falls outside the range, the Oil gauge will not sweep. You will mot know if you have the "L" flash


The oil gauge should sweep after the "L" reflash.
Quoting the TSB "vins after blah, blah.... OR vehicle with PCM updated to "L" calibration CAN confirm the clearing procedure was performed. If procedure was succesful, ....blah, blah, needle will sweep."

I dont know if we are comprehending it differently or if we are looking at two different statements. The text I posted above is from the the following TSB .... except that I change the word 'or' to upper case to signify it :)

here you go:
http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-007.htm [/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Maximus

---> "Drive the vehicle and confirm misfire related DTCs are not stored" <---

how do i confirm if DTCs are not stored? what is a DTC?

Also, are they going to replace any parts related to "L" reflash?
I don't have the CEL problem.


DTC's are diagnostic trouble codes. If the check engine light (MIL) doesn't come on your good. The DTC is the actual code telling the techs where to look for a problem (o2 sensor, misfire,....)

Er, yeah! The new program does that with the oil pressure gage. If you don't have the L flash, whatever program is in your car doesn't have that programming, so the gage won't move. Yessiree!

Hey.. I have the "L" and wanted to ask other people who have this their impressions on it. Is it my imagination or does it feel a lottt smoother going from 1st to 2nd. It seems before that the engine would bog just a bit but now the shift is seemless and the revs pick up quicker.. like from 2nd to 3rd...

and the mileage seems better too.. I have been pushing it and am right around the same mpg as if I were taking it easy...

Thankx, David....

Well davefzr, I am experiencing the same thing you are so far as I can tell. I haven't noticed a huge increase in mpg but I have noticed some. I am having the hotter plugs put in on monday so hopefully between the two I will get a couple miles more per gallon. Since I will be driving to Vancouver, BC in about a week (450 miles each way) I will really be able to put the mpg to the test.

no, when I read the TSB, it implied you cannot confirm the "L" flash if your vehicle falls outside that range

My RX-8 was in the 1st pre-order group, and falls out of the VIN range shown.

Received my "L" reflash on 2/24, and was able to confirm by doing the 20 brake push-ups.

Just got my car back from the dealer. For the oil change I left my own 4 qt of Castrol GTX 5W-20 and specifically told them to use 3.5 qts...and of course they used all 4 of them and the oil level is slightly above the full mark now.

Good news is that I got the "L" flash. Confirmed it by 20 pedal push method with oil needle swing to half and then back.

how come so much for the udgrade $600

It's my understanding that the upgrade is $75.00 or $150.00 if you want the full program (so you can tune yourself)

The upgrade is software.

If you're just talking about the upgrade of the Stage 1 to "new" Stage 1, you just pay shipping. It's about $20 US. The first new units and upgraded units go out on Monday. We're building them as fast as we can, but they take a little longer to do as there is more "stuff" in them.

The upgrade to higher Stages is $75 or $150. It's just a software change (you plug in a USB module I think - we haven't finished it yet). For Stage 2 to be different from Stage 1 I think you have to install the exhaust mods (larger cat and/or resonator). They aren't finished yet, but soon. The exhaust stuff will be more money of course.

whats the difference between stage 1 and 2

Originally posted by riceburner1r200
whats the difference between stage 1 and 2 About 20 additional horsepower. ;)

Dude, you gotta read a little bit please. There's a gagillion threads around the the forum about these mods, like this one (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14823).

Omicron,

Is the additional 20 horsepower still the difference? Last I read with the new "L" flash Canzoomer is closer to 40 HP on Stage 1.
Originaly Stage 1 was just over 20 HP gain.

So are we looking at 60 HP gain with Stage 2?

OK quick question...

That Service Bulletin about the "Eccentric Shaft Plate Profile Memory" IS the actual "L" flash bulletin? Reading the title, I had no clue. I was expecting to read something like, "PCM reflash." So i was confused.

If you guys could just confirm/clarify this for me that'd be great.

Thanks.

No, I don't think it is. What that bulletin is trying to say is that the "L" calibration is the only one that can clear the "keep alive memory" for the eccentric shaft plate settings as these do not go away after you pull the battery or after certain repairs.

The HP difference between Stage 1 and 2 will depend on the intake and exhaust used. As we currently don't have the high flow cat we haven't tested Stage 2 on the dyno. Stay tuned.

As I've said elsewhere, you don't have to choose between the Stages. Just get a Stage 1 and for a reasonable sum you easily move up to Stage 2 when it's available.

Maurice designed it this way so -we- wouldn't be burdened by units coming back all the time for upgrading (we're a little busy just trying to get the basic units out). It also makes it much easier for our customers to move up (or back) when they are ready.

e.g. You buy a Stage 1 and use it on the street daily driving. Later, you decide you want to race in a local track "stock" series. You buy the Stage 2 upgrade module and high flow cat, upgrade your installation and race. Then, when the season is over, you reinstall the stock cat and Stage 1 program.

Why not run Stage 2 on the street? First, it's probably not legal (though that's never stopped people before).
Second, because it's closer to the "edge", you need good fuel -all the time-. We've found the RX-8 has a very good detonation protection system so I doubt you could damage the engine, but if you get a "bad tank" of fuel you will really notice. The protection system yanks you way down on HP to protect the engine. It lasts for 15 sec. or so of running.

Much better than my 3rd gen RX-7. It detects detonation too, but doesn't do much about it, so I could loose the engine if I get too rambunctious. My option is a J&S knock prevention system ($$$).

OK, i just called my dealer's service dept. and asked about the L PCM reflash. The technician didn't seem to know anything about it. But asked what it was in reference to. He asked if there was a CEL, and since i read some mention of that here on the boards, i confirmed that with him, even though i don't get a CEL.
He then said, he would have to look something up. but he obviously didn't do it then, or will not after our phone conversation.

My question is, what do i ask the dealer? or what do i refer them to in order for them to give me the L reflash? I can cite poor gas mileage, but is that enough grounds? For those of you who've received the L upgrade, please let me know how i should approach this.

One last thing, if i take my car in for the scheduled service, and ask that they also perform the dynamic damper recall, airbag recall, and the eccentric shaft memory clear, how long would that take? I guess throw the PCM reflash in there too. How long would all of this take? Given that they have the parts necessary to do the service.

Thank you.

Was there ever a Dyno plot for the new and improved stage one with the L flash? I keep looking and looking, let me know if I missed it.

To get my "L" reflash, I told them that I wasn't happy about getting 12 Mpg when the sticker stated that it would be much higher. And that I have tried many different driving styles, which is all very true. It doesn't bother me that I get the mileage that I get, but if there is an easy fix to make it more efficient, I'm all for it.

To have mine reflashed, airbag recall repaired and the mount recall repaired it took 2 hours.

hope that helps.

strong bad,

Well that is a huge question. To do the re-flash on your PCM only takes a couple of minutes, Passenger side air bag recall takes aprox. 20 minutes, eccentric shaft clear should also only take a few minutes, as far as the dynamic damper goes? My guess is that your car would need to be at the dealership for the day depending on how busy they are when you take it in.

Originally posted by fxdsconv2000
Omicron,

Is the additional 20 horsepower still the difference? Last I read with the new "L" flash Canzoomer is closer to 40 HP on Stage 1.
Originaly Stage 1 was just over 20 HP gain.

So are we looking at 60 HP gain with Stage 2? Based on some informal conversations I've had with Maurice, those numbers are about right - but only with a catback exhaust and midpipe. I'll let him, or one of his coworkers (Like RX8 Friend) speak to the specific numbers.

Jeepers Fellas...

I don't remember reading where the Canadian boys claimed 40 hp on the stage 1. If you can point to that claim, I would sure like to see it. I think it still 20 ish stage 1 and who knows, stage 2. I think it was that the "L" issue was improved driveability with stage 1.

Tom

Read this thread, the information is on page 2

You are kinding, right? Any conclusions based on Gteck are very risky. I have a Gtech. You have to run 6-8 runs both directions to draw any conclusions. In addition, one gear runs yield better results than 1/4 mile type reviews. They are coming out with a new release, 3.1 which I hopes help, but until then, don't take Gtech results to the bank. I would think they posted these slips to give us something to ponder, rather than to state they were for sure getting 40 hp increases off the stage 1.
Tom

Maybe the Gtech results are not exactly accurate when compared to a real dyno or 1/4 mile run on a track but if you have plenty of baseline runs with it and, as long as it's consistent, it can be used to compare and look for any changes. That's what we are doing here and the Gtech results show an aproximate 40whp increase over baseline. We are not talking absolute numbers here, just difference between runs.

As neit_jnf pointed out, the G-Tech is great for relative measurement.
That said, my baseline runs were consistent with published performance numbers.
Additionally, the raw G-Tech data on G's in gear and over time allow you to draw your own conclusions about performance.
Simple HP and torque numbers are only useful to brush off the uninitiated.

Nope I'm not kidding. I don't own a G-tech, hell I've never even seen one. So I have no first hand knowledge of its use.

Canzoomer has never made claims based of a G-tech as being fact. At least not that I've seen.

Just looking at the Stage 1 off runs against the Stage 1 on runs shows some impresive results and that is what we are looking at.

It's not like he has taken one run and said the car is now making 280 RWHP. Its the difference to the base package and the Stage 1 that people are making the 40 HP claim.

I would love to hear more feedback from people who have stage 1 and then gone from the original Mazda map to "L".

Im taking my car in and am a little hesitiant to get the L flash before experiencing stage 1 with the orig Mazda map.

My stage 1 should be shipping in the next batch.

One interesting thing about the ecu we just found out by a member of the German forum. They contacted mazda japan.
Mazda japan reported to him that the ecu does not open fully untill 5400 to 6100km. Till then it is not possible to drive full speed on the autobahn for longer runs, and I rember myself that only for a short time I could go 253km/h, after that the car just only drove around 236km/h with the feeling something is not opening. mazda japan added dthat the airdoors open fully after that amount of kilometers.
The question is why they do that, and would it be better to istall stage 1 later if mazda thinks the car should not move with full power in the beginning. Mazda must think it will harm the car to have full power during the first 6000km This applies for german cars the rest I do not know.

Axel

That mileage issue has been talked about several times however I don't believe anyone could ever prove that is fact and not a rumor.

Well that person had the rx8 twice on the TÜV powercheck and reported a difference about 40hps testing around 4000km and around 6850km. for him he clearly felt it.

What is the conversion of kilometer to miles?

62MPH IS EQUIVALENT to 100km .

cheers
michael

OK.. just for an update on the mpg for the "L" flash. I got it last week sometime and just finished up my first tank since I got it flashed and it made a big difference. All in all I went up 5 maybe 6 mpg. Before I was lucky to get to 190 miles at 3/4 tank and tonight I got to 250 at 3/4 tank. The final figures were 260 miles at 11.7 gallons.. I am totally satisfied with that... Hope all of you experience the same...

David....

Originally posted by albertini
Well that person had the rx8 twice on the TÜV powercheck and reported a difference about 40hps testing around 4000km and around 6850km. for him he clearly felt it.

There has been a problem with some UK cars where the actuator motor on the VFD air intake at 7250 rpm sticks. This gives a reduced acceleration effect above 7k - and lower power.

Mine had this problem tho it seems to have gone away. That was at 2k miles.

AFIK I thought the ECU doesnt know how many miles the engine has on it anyhow?

Excellent news davefzr...

Hope you continue to see these kind of gains!

Fellas...

I REALLY doubt you will see a 40 HP gain going from stock to stage 1. The Gtech runs Maurice posted were just a couple of passes run in terrible conditions. 40 HP is enough to be very noticable and the guys getting these units are reporting mild improvements. I'll be happy to get the 20 to 25 HP that Maurice was projecting off stage 1. Where are all the guys that have received their stage 1s? How about some posts with dyno results (or Gtech runs or even simple timed passes from a certain rpm) from the guys that have received their stage 1 already.
Tom

I dont think any customer has stage 1.1 with L map?

Anyhow CZ himself said ignore the power numbers, the GTech data was more to show the change in the power curve which is marked (and usefull), and not the actual power values themselves.

I just got my ECU upgraded to the "L" version today at the dealer along with that airbag recall fix. After I got home I did the test to ensure I got the upgrade (hit the brake pedal 20 times under 8 seconds) and my oil pressure guage did move from low to mid back to low.

The dealer informed me that this version has nothing to do with gas mileage and I shouldn't even notice an improvement. However most of the posts I'm reading from people who have upgraded from "K" to "L" have noticed improved gas mileage.

I have yet to fully test it since I am still on the same tank of gas since I got it flashed this morning, but I'm definately going to make a note if there are any gas mileage improvements. Maybe they don't have their facts straight but I just thought I'd make it known that I was told right from their service dept. that it doesn't affect gas mileage.

I called and asked my dealer about doing the airbag recall and also the PCM reflash. He said they don't know exactly what updates the reflash has on it. They just do it if the TSB calls for it. He did say they can hook it up to see what version is currently on there, at which point I'll ask to be updated to the new L. Complained about low mpg and also that I talked with N.A. Mazda and they said a reflash wouldn't hurt anything.
Taking it in this Thursday.

Syrenic- do you notice any power changes after the flash?

I got the "L" PCM flash installed this weekend. Note that I'm running stock, without canzoomer's mod. I've noticed the following changes but some of them might just be wishful thinking. I really haven't got enough miles on the car since the reflash:

1. the car seems to idle more smoothly. It's not electric motor smooth (I wish!), but the obvious misfiring has reduced.
2. the engine seems a bit more responsive in the 3,000-4,000 rpm range.
3. acceleration to the red line in gears 1,2 doesn't seem much different though I chirped the tires on dry pavement in the 1-2 shift which is a first.
4. I cleaned the soot out of the tailpipes after the reflash and after a few short city driving trips they're still clean.

I'm not watching fuel economy and don't plan to try to optimize mpg. We'll see if things improve. I've been averaging 17mpg.

rex pretty much summed up for me what the "L" revision has changed. Overall the engine feels smoother and slightly noticeable power in the mid rpm range. Even if mpg does not improve I am still happy I got the update.

yeah, just got mine reflashed today on top of the recalls. At first, the service manager was playing games, and denied hearing anything regarding a PCM reflash. Then I pulled out the paper i printed from the TSB, and started to talk about how forum members here have already received the reflash. He then glanced at my paper and turned back to his computer saying, "OK, here's what I'll do...i know about the reflash, and here in the description i'll say that, 'Customer has noticed lack of performance since purchasing vehicle.'" And that was it.

so, yeah...for those who haven't had their ECUs reflashed and want to. You just gotta keep at it. Chances are, your dealership is just playing dumb so it doens't blow up like the misrated hp issue.

I'm pretty much echoing what other forum members say about how the car drives after the reflash. i'm not sure if it has anything to do with the dynamic damper..but 1st to 2nd shifting from high rpms is no longer difficult. it's a smoother shift now, wheras before it wouldn't go to 2nd unless you really jammed it in.

i haven't noticed any performance gains, but then again i didn't have much open road to really see.

still too early to report any gas mileage results...but i'm anticipating at least a 3 mpg improvement (i consistently got 14 city).

Just had my reflash done today, I wrote the following letter and gave it to the rep regarding the reflash. I'm sure you can "word smith" it better but I didn't seem to get any flake and they went ahead and did the work. After the procedure, I confirmed by pumping the brake and saw the oil pressure gauge do the "sweep". Here's the letter, fill in the blanks were necessary, Note, I have a manual the automatic reflash is a different number..


================
Updating RX-8 Power train Control Module – (PCM) to the latest “L” calibration (N3H6 18 881L):

I have an early production VIN vehicle; Mazda has come out with 4 updates since the inception of the car. The latest “L” calibration leans out Air/Fuel Ratio in many places in the RPM range, as well as retarding timing to prevent pinging that has been reported to cars in areas that are hot, humid or at sea level. This leaning of the AFR will also improve fuel economy which is my main concern. I have been keeping strict records of all my fill-up’s and over the course of xxxxxx miles and have averaged only xx.x MPG on mixed driving. My car is definitely running pig-rich; exhibits immediate tail pipe carbon build-up and rough idle when cold.

I’m requesting this latest PCM reflash be applied to my car because the mileage is unacceptable given that the EPA has given this car 18-24 MPG rating.

*Attached: The following TSB (Clearing Eccentric Shaft Plate Profile Memory) explains yet another circumstance in which flashing to the “L” calibration is a good idea.

Thanks,
xxxx xxxx
================

I also had the "L" today. Even had the Mazda Rep there. Both He and the Service Manager okayed the move to "L" after I handed over copies of the notes written by forum members noting changes. After driving the car, I find that driving with the traction control completely off has a more noticable effect on driveability than the reflash, however I don't have enough miles on the "L" to say for sure. Now we wait to see if the mpg improves.
Tom

Had mine done today in conjunction with the two recall items. Verified with the brake/oil pressure gauge trick.

My invoice lists the following regarding the update:

A 6X 9W N3Z1-18-881 0 F0008XDX

Not enough time to verify any MPG changes. So far I've just noticed that it sounds and feels a little smoother on hard acceleration. Just waiting for my Stage 1 which is on its way (finally).

vix8...

Your dealer give you any lip on the "L" flash?

Other than mpg, I wanted the "L" to make sure the stage 1 performed to the max, no surprises.
Tom

Is there an L-flash in germany too?
Got my car in Feb, maybe it is allready on.
Nobody knows anything about this flash in Germany yet.

I have the same inquiry as albertini. It seems that my dealer is not aware at all about new reflash!
I got my car this month and I was unable to confirm the ECU version by doing the 20 brake push-ups (no light on on the dashboard)

Is anybody did a reflash in Europe?

Thanx for sharing experience

Cosmos, you shouldn't see any lights on the dash, keep an eye on the oil pressure guage. The needle should sweep from low to mid, then back to low - if the "L" version of the PCM calibration has been applied.

Somewhere in one of CanZoomer's posts he mentions the number of flashes in Japan, Europe, the States....all different. Remembering it, I would say you guys have something else. You might check the Australia section of this forum. I think Lock and Load and others are checking what is going on over/down there and it might help answer your question.
Good Luck,
Tom

Show them the bulletin.

I had my dealer check mine on the WDS. I observed. The WDS reported the calibration is:

N3J6-18881-E

And that was up to date (no updates available). I was also assured that the WDS was up-to-date.

This number is also written on the decal on the PCM itself.

For some other Aussie's views on this, see http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21879

Cheers,
Hymee.

So we have a few guys reporting trouble at 4500 to 7000 RPM using the "L" flash. They are reporting this "clang in the engine" and a loss of power. mdw333 using "L" and stage 1.1 at 6500; hac using "L", green drop in filter and aftermarket exhaust at 4500; RXguy with intake at 7000; Searay "L" only with midgrade (89) gas at 6000. Anyone else reporting troubles?

Edited to correct RXGuy's NOT having the "L' at the time of the "clang".

Islandsoon, please allow me to clarify. I was trying to describe a similar event that happened to me when I tried on an air intake. I did not have the "L" at the time. Sorry if I misled you.

Originally posted by islandsoon
So we have a few guys reporting trouble at 4500 to 7000 RPM using the "L" flash. They are reporting this "clang in the engine" and a loss of power. mdw333 using "L" and stage 1.1 at 6500; hac using "L", green drop in filter and aftermarket exhaust at 4500; RXguy with intake and "L" at 7000; Searay "L" only with midgrade (89) gas at 6000. Anyone else reporting troubles? Nice summary, islandsoon.

I think someone from Canzoomer's staff should speak to this issue...

Considering it's only happened to 1 car with L and stage1.1, I think it's more a L issue.

Originally posted by islandsoon
vix8...

Your dealer give you any lip on the "L" flash?

Other than mpg, I wanted the "L" to make sure the stage 1 performed to the max, no surprises.
Tom

Yes. They played dumb at first. I finally suggested that they could do it in conjunction with the recall items. That seemed to lower their resistance to the idea. So now everybody is happy.

Should get my stage 1 today. Fed Ex shows it on the truck in my area. Yippeeeee!!!!! :p

Originally posted by Genom
Considering it's only happened to 1 car with L and stage1.1, I think it's more a L issue.

He took off stage 1.1 and hasn't had the problem since. So I don't think it's and L issue.

I think it is karma coming back to bite him for being so impatient before getting stage 1. :D No... it really sucks that he's having trouble, hopefully it isn't anything wrong with his car that warranty won't fix.

I have trouble believing that the stage 1.1 is that wacky. CZ put a lot of time into testing for this very reason. How could stage 2 possibly be viable if the more conservative stage 1.1 isn't stable? Too many variables to pinpoint the cause at this point.

Originally posted by adrian-1
He took off stage 1.1 and hasn't had the problem since. So I don't think it's and L issue.

I think he needs to clear things up since he mentioned before that he had that happen occasionaly before the upgrade/update.

And there's 3 people WITHOUT a stage1 that have similar problems. So 1 ocasional with a stage 1 vs 4 instances of no stage1 and still the issue, tells me it's not the stage 1 directly.

OK, just got my Stage 1 installed (man, those last 3 connectors are a bitch).

Got the "L" reflash yesterday.

Test drive went just fine. So no problems to report from here.

Sure gets to red line a bit faster!

Great news. Is Redmond near sea level?

Everyone is calling this new one a stage1.1

My unit that came today just says stage1, dated March 5th

What about anyone else?

CZ said in a post that as of when they started shipping Monday, all the units shipped out would be 1.1. I believe he held up shipping for a while until he was ready to do this. If your unit has a USB port on the front that's what it is. Us early Stage 1 guys have been sending them back and getting them upgraded. When I got mine back today it had the USB port on it.

PS -- The decal on mine also says Level: 1 and it's a new decal. (It didn't have one before.) Level 1 = Stage 1.1., upgradeable. Level 2 = Stage 2. Level 3 = tune it yourself w/ his accessory stuff and software. All physically the same.

Originally posted by shebam
Great news. Is Redmond near sea level?

Ya, pretty close, about 250 ft at my house.

I thought Bill was doing something to raise Redmond an additional 200 feet above sea level. I guess its time to cancel my subscription to Weekly World News.

Hey.. just curious if anyone has contacted mazda corp about the hesitation problem. I have had the "L" flash now for about 2 weeks.. love the mpg.. I am up over 20 now.. but this hesitation I dont like at all. It only does it when I accelerate hard in 2nd or 3rd gear and when I shift at 8500 or higher the car hesitates like a bitch and then the power kicks in.. The power seemed to be more seemless with the "K" flash.... After I shift in those gears and apply the power it dies for a second and then the power comes on...

Thankx, David...

Do you have TCS? If so, try turning it off and seeing how you go, you may be getting some spin and the traction control is kicking in...

Yeah I do.. I actually just tried it again with both DCS and TCS turned off and it happened again.. Has anyone else experienced this?

Thankx...

Has anyone else experienced this?

I had the 'L' re-flash done a few weeks ago, and have not noticed the hesitation of which you speak.

Perhaps you are inadvertantly hitting the fuel shutoff? The rev counter is not the most accurate device according to canzoomer.

Yeah... thats probably it.. thankx for the comments.

OK, a few clairifications (I hope).

There is no Stage 1.1. My bad, I once said "maybe we'll call it 1.1". It's just Stage 1 (current). Visable difference is you have two leds visible on the front and a USB port. Caution, that is not a standard USB, so don't just plug something in and try to use it. It's for the special programming USB cable (sold separatly ;).

The Stage 1s are now being shipped steadily, so more of you should get notification soon. I'm much happier with the quality of construction, though you will not see it externally. If any of you break the switch during installation, better return it for repair. If broken, it may not be reliable. There is a spring in the toggle that keeps the contacts together and locked in postion.

The car has a very good detonation prevention system. It greatly retards ignition if it detects any detonation events, and keeps it retarded for a few seconds (to let the conditions leading up to it subside). You will experience it as perhaps a strange noise (if it is serious enough) and the car "falling flat on its' face", ie. power dieing. So we have at least three reports of noise from the engine, some with and some without Stage 1. My opinion is you have now seen how good the PCM is at protecting the renesis from detonation. Was what you heard detonation? I doubt it. It is more subtle. Kind of like shaking a can with bolts in it. Not really loud. I suspect what you hear is the noise generated when you suddenly yank the timing to full retard (any play in the engine gearing will be taken up with a bump or clang). This is what the new detonation prevention system does. Those of us with 3rd gen RX-7s sure wish it was built into our cars!

The "L" flash takes the car close to this territory (to improve mileage by leaning out the mixture). If you experience a hesitation etc. try getting a tank of higher octane fuel. We would expect anyone close to sea level to be more susceptable as they are effectively running more "lean" (more O2 molecules per volume of air as pressure is higher the lower your altitude). We think the pressure sensor is inexpensive and may not be very good.

So, if you are at sea level you will slightly lean the mixture. If you put on a freer flowing exhaust you will slightly lean the mixture. If you put on a freer intake you will slightly lean the mixture. If you get the "L" flash you will slightly lean the mixture. If you install the Stage 1 module you will slightly lean the mixture. Add them all up and you could get it too lean. You will have to use higher octane fuel. If you want to run all these things you may need to richen the mixture. Tuning will be required. Hence the availablilty of tuning enabling hardware/software. You will need a wideband O2 sensor.

This is exactly what we have been worried about. Mazda scared us when we looked at what the "L" flash did. It had more benefits than risk, but it got us worried and Maurice worked out a new tune "just in case". This is something that normally happens when people start modifying cars. They go too far and have to "adjust".

If you are worried Stage 1 will not be usable in your car, don't be. We will fix it if it turns out you need the program richened. We will refund your money if you can't use it or are too worried to use it.

I hate to bring this up, as it is very inaccurate and uninformative, but perhaps we have discovered a "two mod" rule. Intake and catback are ok. Intake and Stage 1 are ok. Catback and Stage 1 are ok. Intake, catback and Stage 1 = possible trouble.

Perhaps now some of you who thought I was crying "wolf" in my warnings of Stage 2 suitability are now beginning to understand. It takes a certain amount of skill to properly tune a car close to its' maximum possible output. It's something that is fun to learn, if you have the proper outlook.

any idea when the "new" stage 1 and the L flash dyno's might be available?

I keep hearing about more power over all, not just 5K RPM and above, but nothing more concrete.

Just interested, I am going to buy it anyways.

dang, how do you know what level you're at? I'm in Hawaii, that would probably make me real close to sea level. Does that mean no CZ for me.. hmmmm

I think that if you can touch the Ocean then you're at sea level....


If you are at the top of a mountain and see clouds 10 feet above your head, you're probably not at sea level..

Originally posted by RX-Nut
dang, how do you know what level you're at? I'm in Hawaii, that would probably make me real close to sea level. Does that mean no CZ for me.. hmmmm

well then.. I'm sea level alright.. haha, as close as one could possibly get I reckon.

Dang with this thread.. makes me not want to even touch the CZ with a 10 foot pole then. :(

Rx-8 nut...

I'm going to get my unit next week and hook it up. I'll let you know what I experience. I have the L flash.. I'm at sea level.

Genom (i think)also has the L flash, new stage I, is at sea level and does not seem to have any problems yet. There are a couple others who have/about to install Stage I with L flash at sea level..

Just be patient, it may be an isolated incident. Also, as stated above, mods might make a diff.. I can test this too as I have an aftermarket intake that is not currently installed in my 8.

Cool.. thx for the info.. (crossing fingers) hope it goes well.

If I go get the CZ however, I probably wont touch the exh or intake.

That's a good policy for a beginner (if that is what you are). One mod at a time. I edited my post above with more info. I thought up while sleeping (well, laying awake thinking ;).

Maurice's car has stock intake and exhaust. The Stage 1 tune was developed just below 1000 metre elevation, but the temperature was low (which means lean - more O2 per volume of intake). We think it was conservative enough to be ok at sea level. In Hawaii you have very high humidity, and that will effectively "richen" the mixture, so I suspect it would be fine.

We are going to do a dynojet run as soon as we can. Been rather busy just getting the units out the door. Last night we got lots more snow, so it's still winter, and that tends to slow us down a bit.

Good point about the humidity.. That may be why people in Florida are not reporting any problems, despite being at sea level.

Originally posted by RX-8 friend
That's a good policy for a beginner (if that is what you are). One mod at a time. I edited my post above with more info. I thought up while sleeping (well, laying awake thinking ;).

Maurice's car has stock intake and exhaust. The Stage 1 tune was developed just below 1000 metre elevation, but the temperature was low (which means lean - more O2 per volume of intake). We think it was conservative enough to be ok at sea level. In Hawaii you have very high humidity, and that will effectively "richen" the mixture, so I suspect it would be fine.

We are going to do a dynojet run as soon as we can. Been rather busy just getting the units out the door. Last night we got lots more snow, so it's still winter, and that tends to slow us down a bit.

Just to confirm I am at sea level, have the L firmware, have a Greddy exhaust and the stage 1. No intake mods. No problems so far after a VERY hard 300 miles using both 89 and 93 octane gas.

Reeeeeally looking forward to seeing the dyno results of the new and improved maps...

Originally posted by RX-Nut
well then.. I'm sea level alright.. haha, as close as one could possibly get I reckon.

Dang with this thread.. makes me not want to even touch the CZ with a 10 foot pole then. :( You could also buy the mod with the full programming cable and software, or wait for Stage 3 for multiple maps and in car adjustabiliy. IOW, don't give up!

RX-Nut

The couple of times I was in Hawaii I'm pretty sure I went from Sea Level to 4,000' several times a day. Run up to Haleakala and you are at 8,000'. Drive up to the turn around at the Onizuka Astronomy Center, short of the Mauna Kea peak and you are at 9000'. You live in CO? then don't count on staying at 5000 in Denver unless you don't plan any trips. My point is, don't count on one elevation. And with Hilo getting 200 to 300" of rain each year and the Kona coast getting 10 to 15", I wouldn't count on just seeing one humidity level either.

Are you addressing this to RX-Nut, or to me? (I'm in Colorado)

Originally posted by Scotchee
I'm confused about your fuel economy results:

1. I was under the impression that your maps only adjust "wide-open throttle" conditions which are 85% or greater throttle positions. I wouldn't think that the throttle would be open that far on cruise control going 84-90 mph so why is there a difference between old Stage1 map and NEW Stage1 map?

2. If your Stage1 kit is now making adjustments for partial throttle conditions (like I would expect when using cruise control), won't the car's ECU "learn" about your adjustments and "correct" away your new partial throttle maps?

Simple. We cheated a bit.

If you only adjust fuel/air ratios under closed loop mode, partial throtlle under 80%, the ECU will try to adjust to 14.6, so you gain little or nothing.

BUT, one can also do some useful things with ignition timing.
And by setting it up so that when cruise control is on we crank up a bunch of advance, we can gain quite a bit on highway runs.

Also, the one side effect we get from the use of more ignition adjustment is that we are able to get a bit more power, with a LESS lean mixture, and keep the exhaust gas temps lower.
This means less risk of catalytic converter damage, at higher outputs than we had before.

That was one of the big reasons we decide to buld ( or rebuild of you send us back an older unit) ALL units as what was originally planned to be our Stage2 design.
The benefits to be had with the ignition control were such that it was so much better than before that we felt there was no point doing it the old way.
Plus the new builds have the programming port, and the connector for rpm output, so they are Stage3 ready.
Simply plug in the Stage3 hardware and you are set.
Multi-map on the fly, in-car fine adjustment on the tune, and boost application controls at your fingertips.

Today I took my 8 in for the recall. I also had them do an oil change as I just reached 3k. While in I requested that they perform a reflash on the PCM. I stated that I had some rough idling in cooler weather and since cooler weather here in Texas is like 45, I didn't think this should be doing so. I mentioned that I heard about the reflash online and politely asked them to reflash it.

Without hassle and with a smile the dealership performed the reflash and I have verified it. Written on the service ticket was the following Description.

____
Customer Reports: Car is running rough in cool weather. Client requests to have the pcm reflashed.
Caused by: road test vehicle
Corrected by F0010XfX: Powertrain Control Module Reflashing.
F0010XFX 0.3hrs Reflash PCM with the latest updates to pcm program.
____

I am very pleased that they did as I requested as I am looking forward to receiving my Stage 1 from Maurice within the next few weeks.

As for noticing any difference. I took the 8 out and drove about 50 miles tonight. Had some hard accelerations with both DSC off and on. It seems to me that with the DSC off I can tell a bit of a difference but it could be in my head. I'll be watching the smoot build up on the tail pipes and carefully mapping my fuel economy. Sucky thing is, I filled up a day or so before taking it in and I didn't look at the gauge before they took the car. The reflash reset the Trip odometer and so I'll have to wait for a full tank to see the difference. First tank I haven't kept track of. Oh well.

I know this is probably old news to most of you, but thought I'd add to the chorus.

Originally posted by Marcus Desaul
Today I took my 8 in for the recall. I also had them do an oil change as I just reached 3k. While in I requested that they perform a reflash on the PCM. I stated that I had some rough idling in cooler weather and since cooler weather here in Texas is like 45, I didn't think this should be doing so. I mentioned that I heard about the reflash online and politely asked them to reflash it.

Without hassle and with a smile the dealership performed the reflash and I have verified it. Written on the service ticket was the following Description.

____
Customer Reports: Car is running rough in cool weather. Client requests to have the pcm reflashed.
Caused by: road test vehicle
Corrected by F0010XfX: Powertrain Control Module Reflashing.
F0010XFX 0.3hrs Reflash PCM with the latest updates to pcm program.
____

I am very pleased that they did as I requested as I am looking forward to receiving my Stage 1 from Maurice within the next few weeks.

As for noticing any difference. I took the 8 out and drove about 50 miles tonight. Had some hard accelerations with both DSC off and on. It seems to me that with the DSC off I can tell a bit of a difference but it could be in my head. I'll be watching the smoot build up on the tail pipes and carefully mapping my fuel economy. Sucky thing is, I filled up a day or so before taking it in and I didn't look at the gauge before they took the car. The reflash reset the Trip odometer and so I'll have to wait for a full tank to see the difference. First tank I haven't kept track of. Oh well.

I know this is probably old news to most of you, but thought I'd add to the chorus.

i don't recall the reflash resetting my trip odometer. but the needle sweep test works. hmmm

Originally posted by Genom
Just to confirm I am at sea level, have the L firmware, have a Greddy exhaust and the stage 1. No intake mods. No problems so far after a VERY hard 300 miles using both 89 and 93 octane gas.

Yay Genom! thanks for the vote of confidence.. I'm convincing myself to get it.. not sure when though..

Originally posted by islandsoon
RX-Nut

The couple of times I was in Hawaii I'm pretty sure I went from Sea Level to 4,000' several times a day. Run up to Haleakala and you are at 8,000'. Drive up to the turn around at the Onizuka Astronomy Center, short of the Mauna Kea peak and you are at 9000'. You live in CO? then don't count on staying at 5000 in Denver unless you don't plan any trips. My point is, don't count on one elevation. And with Hilo getting 200 to 300" of rain each year and the Kona coast getting 10 to 15", I wouldn't count on just seeing one humidity level either.

Well those are Maui and the Big Island.. Lots of differing elevations there most definitely. I'm on Oahu, where it's pretty much flat..

Originally posted by RX-GR8
i don't recall the reflash resetting my trip odometer. but the needle sweep test works. hmmm

It could be that the dealership did this of their own accord. Not sure why they would, but darn them if they did. Messed up my perfect record of my fuel economy chart.

Canzoomer,

What do you think the HP gains of the new maps are over the older maps?

How does the high-temp cat gains compare to that?


Originally posted by canzoomer
Simple. We cheated a bit.

If you only adjust fuel/air ratios under closed loop mode, partial throtlle under 80%, the ECU will try to adjust to 14.6, so you gain little or nothing.

BUT, one can also do some useful things with ignition timing.
And by setting it up so that when cruise control is on we crank up a bunch of advance, we can gain quite a bit on highway runs.

Also, the one side effect we get from the use of more ignition adjustment is that we are able to get a bit more power, with a LESS lean mixture, and keep the exhaust gas temps lower.
This means less risk of catalytic converter damage, at higher outputs than we had before.

That was one of the big reasons we decide to buld ( or rebuild of you send us back an older unit) ALL units as what was originally planned to be our Stage2 design.
The benefits to be had with the ignition control were such that it was so much better than before that we felt there was no point doing it the old way.
Plus the new builds have the programming port, and the connector for rpm output, so they are Stage3 ready.
Simply plug in the Stage3 hardware and you are set.
Multi-map on the fly, in-car fine adjustment on the tune, and boost application controls at your fingertips.

Originally posted by Marcus Desaul
It could be that the dealership did this of their own accord. Not sure why they would, but darn them if they did. Messed up my perfect record of my fuel economy chart.

I think this will happen every time you unhook the battery, so maybe they unhooked the battery as part of a reset after the flash?

Slipped the upgraded unit back in after the "L" reflash. No problems in light workout including runs to redline, but little WOT as it is cold and rainy. VERY smooth. Big smile.:)

Just a heads up for everyone. Get the "L" reflash. Latest TSB says it's a necessary fix for flooding. Also says " let the customer read part of it" for unflooding in the future.

They should give you the flash if you tell them you flooded the car.

Also, we think the problem one owner had is in his car. Maybe the "L" flash didn't take properly, or maybe there is a bad sensor. The new Stage 1 just seemed to bring it out.

latest TSB on flooding? Ooh... where's that? I thought the latest was that shaft sensor thingy..

Originally posted by RX-Nut
latest TSB on flooding? Ooh... where's that? I thought the latest was that shaft sensor thingy..

engine cranks/ no start (at the bottom of page) (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/index.html)

Rosenthal Mazda posts the TSB's on their site.

We have been getting quite a bit more soot with the "L" and the Stage 1. We haven't been able to drive it much, so can't comment on mpg, but the Gtech runs we have done indicate a power loss.

Originally posted by islandsoon
We have been getting quite a bit more soot with the "L" and the Stage 1. We haven't been able to drive it much, so can't comment on mpg, but the Gtech runs we have done indicate a power loss.

more info please.
Is this the remapped stage 1?
Power loss? Are you going by the 1/4mi or hp/tq runs on the Gtech. Also, did you test on the same strip of road as before runs? (I get 10hp difference on a different straight flat road when I use my Gtech.) Also, could you post some graphs?

Originally posted by adrian-1
more info please.
Is this the remapped stage 1?
Power loss? Are you going by the 1/4mi or hp/tq runs on the Gtech. Also, did you test on the same strip of road as before runs? (I get 10hp difference on a different straight flat road when I use my Gtech.) Also, could you post some graphs?
Yes this is the revised stage 1, and yes it is on the same road using the one gear (3rd) hp/tq procedure. I do at least three runs on any change to the car. So far, the stage one is losing me hp hence my questions concerning the learning mode, resetting the computer and my wondering if anyone else is seeing soot. The car is smoother, just not showing up in hp increases. I will be trying again once the weather settles down a bit and post results. The Gtech is not particularly consistent, so multiple runs are important.

islandsoon,

What do you mean by power loss?

Are you saying the NEW Stage 1 (aka Stage 1.1) with "L" reflash is making less HP than the original Stage one with or without "L"? Or are you saying the NEW Stage 1 with "L" reflash is making less HP than the "L" reflash WITHOUT Stage 1? Or are you comparing some other conditions?

I have a stage 1 dated 3/5/04 and installed 3/11/04. I had "L" flashed 3/9/04. HP before 3/11/04 was higher than HP after 3/11/04.

LOL.

But look at your dates!!! Everything is confused AGAIN. And what do you mean by you have a stage 1 dated 3/5/04? Is that when it arrived?

Ok, assuming 3/5 is when it arrived and 3/11 is when you installed the stage 1, you never tested the stage 1 WITHOUT "L" because "L" was installed on 3/9, which is two days before you installed stage 1.

So what exactly have you done on the gtech? Did you test (1) without "L" and without stage 1, (2) with "L" and without stage 1, and (3) with "L" and with stage 1? From your dates, sounds like you never had the chance to test (4) without "L" and with stage 1, which is too bad.

Could you tell us which of the four conditions you have tested using the gtech AND then assign results to the appropriate conditions (just mark the results with a 1, 2, 3, or 4)? This should remove the confusion.

Originally posted by PhineasFellOff
[B]LOL.

But look at your dates!!! Everything is confused AGAIN. And what do you mean by you have a stage 1 dated 3/5/04? Is that when it arrived?....

Nice work Ironsides....You gotta get up pretty early to make "accusations" around here....

One of the pages in this thread shows a hp gain of about 40 hp with the "L" flash and the stage 1 mod. Am I reading this right? I it true? Canzoomer some help please. I am very excited about this mod.

The L flash by itself is pretty nice... still waiting for a dyno run with the stage 1.1 myself to see actual gains.

No accusations, really. All I'm saying is the phrasing is extremely unclear and each time he tries to clarify, his words worsen the confusion. And that is kind of funny! But that's the problem with language.

Anyone have any further thougths/numbers to talk about with "L" and 1.1?? I made up some b.s. for my dealership to get the "L" only in anticipation of the 1.1 coming up in the next group buy, does that make me immoral?

Nah, just practical. :D

Ditto. I've got an appointment for tomorrow to get the flash.

I'm getting mine done today. :D

I had the L flash a week ago today. To date I really haven't seen an increase in gas mileage, nor a decrease in the amount of smoot coating my tail pipes.

That said, it does seem to have a little more spunk on accelloration but that is just perception and I have no verifiable evidence for that.

My Stage 1 should be arriving in the next couple of weeks.

Originally posted by PhineasFellOff
No accusations, really. All I'm saying is the phrasing is extremely unclear and each time he tries to clarify, his words worsen the confusion. And that is kind of funny! But that's the problem with language.

OK, some clarifications here are needed:

1) The Stage1 new version ( some are calling it "1.1" but it is still the same unit now) is currently making less peak power with L than with K.

2) It makes more power overall "under the curve" in both cases.

3) Some cars are acting a bit "quirky" with the "1.1" We have done a new map to deal with this, and we are doing further work on the map as I know we can get a bit more peak power as well.

Not all RX-8's respond the same with the L flash installed.
I have had a handful of people report littl power gain, lots reporting good gains, and even 3 people who had slight pinging. MDW333 ( or whatever his handle is, I forget) and 2 others have had this so far.
Lots others have had no issues. Go figure. It looks like the "learning mode" in the RX-8 ECU is doing more now, and occasionally the car is getting confused as a result. The discnnecting of the battery generally fixes this, but we still are working on ways to prevent this in general.

Again, this affects a very small number of cars.

Part of our "evil plan" is to keep developing maps that are optimized for a given flash revision, but right now what we are shipping is designed to get along reasonably well with L AND with older flash versions. Not too easy, as Mazda keeps making radical changes lately inthe maps in K and L. And there is purportedly a newer flash coming later this week too!
So, we now have the programming cable kits ready, and they are $75
Once you have that you can load newer flashes for our unit, and we can provide maps specifically tuned for each ECU flash version.
Then we can give people more peak power, but they need to choose the appropriate map for their flash version to go with it.
It is shaping up more and more that this is partially "Stage2" in many ways. Now that the hardware is Stage1/2 andpeople get the programming kits, they can change maps readily, and use what is desired and appropriate at a given time.
I am setting up an ftp download section for maps, so people can get them for their units.

As for gas mileage I am definitely seeing better with L and our unit, as are many other people.

Right now I am busy with developing newer refined maps for these conditions, and with themaps for the exhasut system equipped cars. Basically perfecting the Stage2 tune.

I am just posting a new thread of installation of our new midpipe.

Maurice

Cant help but wonder what your definition of get along reasonable well is .( L flash )

Here in AUSTRALIA AS U AWARE WE SEEM TO HAVE A DIFFERENT MAP to the U.S cars the latest flash here is called E .

Love to hear from you as to the possible solution to the Australian upgrade .

I know that you are a bussy man but i feel that your Australian test pilots, KANGARRO 1 AND 2 have been kept in limbo/ IN THE DARK long enough .

CHEERS
MICHAEL

Originally posted by Lock & Load

Here in AUSTRALIA AS U AWARE WE SEEM TO HAVE A DIFFERENT MAP to the U.S cars the latest flash here is called E .


Probably just the "L" flash upside down. :p

Originally posted by Omicron
I'm getting mine done today. :D

And the survey says?????????

I am going to get a new flash done tomorrow, and it is one after the L flash.

Once we get that, we will do some more data logging and tuning on the weekend.

We have held off shipments this week until we get a chance to see this, and determine what impact, if any, it has on our maps.
This is getting slightly ridiculous, as Mazda is now playing "flash of the month club".

Maybe something useful will come of it.

I am hearing a lot of reports now of catalytic converter failures. Cars keep throwing OBD error codes for this failure mode.

I wonder if they are scrambling to catch this problem and deal with it..

Originally posted by God of Thunder
And the survey says????????? Survey says, the "L" flash is GOODNESS. :D

I was really dreading giving up my Stage 1, but I pulled it and returned it to Maurice on Tuesday morning to be upgraded. This coincided with taking my '8 in for the recall work and the L reflash. Yeah, I know you don't have to remove the CZ unit to have a reflash done, but I figured the timing just worked out.

At any rate, I'm now (temporarilly) driving my '8 without the CanZoomer unit but with the L reflash. And the "L" is a real, tangible improvement. Car pulls more strongly throughout the rev range, and just seems to run better in general. I have no idea if the soot or mileage is any better, but I think the mileage at least may be. I'll know in a day or two when I gas up. Regardless, I can definitely recommend the "L."

It'll sure be interesting to see how well the L and the Stage 1.1 play together when I get it back in a few days. Hopefully I won't be one of those people with "quirky" behavior.

You'll definitely have to let us know how it feels when you get it back.

Are you thinking about upgrading to Stage 2? The products that have been posted in the past days look sweet.

David...

If the question is addressed to me David, I'm planning on sticking with the Stage 1.1 until Stage 3 is available. I may go to that, but we'll see. But regardless of whether I go to Stage 3 or not, I am definitely planning on adding the high temp/flow cat with resonator.

And don't worry, I will definitely post the results of my Stage 1.1 plus "L" combo. :D

I took my car in for the 2 recalls and gave the song and dance about "running rough" so I could get the L flash. This was at Hine mazda in San Diego. 3 service reps said "We'll have to see if you are entitled to the flash." Whatever that means. But later they called and did the flash. I'll pick up the car in the morning, and looking forward to more power at low revs, smoother running, and slightly improved mpg. I've been getting 16.8 consistenly. I have a first increment car (received July 03.) I'll let y'all know my results in a couple weeks.

Based off of 4 complete tanks of fuel, I am now getting an additional 3.9 mpg with the new flash!! Here in Cali, every little bit helps at $2.37 a gallon of premium!

that be L?

Yes, and make that numer 3.06 mpg increase. I had numbers for three tanks before and compared them to the latest tanks now, I'm tripping out now that I'm getting well over a hundred miles before I reach half a tank, I'm happy with the little increase. Best avg yet for me is just over 20 mpg, previous best was just over 17 with the worst being in the 15s.

good to hear it! I hope I fare the same if/when I get mine on Monday.

So how do you know which version L or K you have? Is there a cutoff date? I'd like to know which flash I have before I go telling the dealer I have rough running problems. Does anyone have any info. on this?

I just completed my first full tank of gas with the "L" flash 16.8 MPG... Which is about .8 higher than usual, I was stuck in a lot of traffic last week, bunches of wrecks. I was hoping for better.

Originally posted by shaunv74
So how do you know which version L or K you have? Is there a cutoff date? I'd like to know which flash I have before I go telling the dealer I have rough running problems. Does anyone have any info. on this?

Put the key in the ignition ( to "ON/ACC" -- i.e., turns on everything short of starting the engine) and depress/release the brake pedal ("tap" it) at least 20 times in less than 8 seconds. You don't have to "mash" the pedal. After the flurry of brake pedal taps, your oil level indicator should sweep form low to normal to low. This indicates the presence of the "L" reflash.

I just got the new "M" flash a few days ago. I had some stalling and hard starts along with poor gas mileage about 14 mpg and this is with temps in the mid to low 80s. The dealer gave me the new flash while performing the airbag module repair. Although I haven't had the car that long with the new flash I did notice some more responsiveness in low rpm but not as much at high rpm. it's to early to measure mpg for now. Is this the new flash your talking about Maurice? Is there anything this flash does besides address the flooding problem such as run a leaner mixture in your experience?

Ok, time for us (me) stupid people to ask questions. First please understand that I am completely new to all of this tuning stuff.

1. What are the stock set ups upper limitations? By this I mean what is the engine capable of based solely on tuning changes. If the car were brought to market with the stated horsepower wouldn't there have been products just like this one that would boost the power through tuning taking it beyond where stage 1 or maybe even stage 2 takes it?

2. Is the biggest difference in stage 1 and 2 (other than the maps) the need modify the cat, etc.?

3. My (naive) understanding of what stage 1 does is that it intercepts the commands at key points in the process and overrides them with it's own optimized set of commands. Is that fairly correct?

If so why wouldn't the answer be to just intercept all commands and essentially replace the ECU programming? Wouldn't this allow the output to be maxxed out regardless of one's current flash level?

OK I'm done, be gentle.

Originally posted by God of Thunder
Ok, time for us (me) stupid people to ask questions. First please understand that I am completely new to all of this tuning stuff.

1. What are the stock set ups upper limitations? By this I mean what is the engine capable of based solely on tuning changes. If the car were brought to market with the stated horsepower wouldn't there have been products just like this one that would boost the power through tuning taking it beyond where stage 1 or maybe even stage 2 takes it?

2. Is the biggest difference in stage 1 and 2 (other than the maps) the need modify the cat, etc.?

3. My (naive) understanding of what stage 1 does is that it intercepts the commands at key points in the process and overrides them with it's own optimized set of commands. Is that fairly correct?

If so why wouldn't the answer be to just intercept all commands and essentially replace the ECU programming? Wouldn't this allow the output to be maxxed out regardless of one's current flash level?

OK I'm done, be gentle. Good reading here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24982) and here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14823) for questions 2 and 3. For question 1, biggest difference is that Stage 2 uses more ignition advance than stage 1, which causes exhaust gas temps to rise significantly enough to burn out the stock (ceramic) catalytic converter. Hence the need for a high temp cat replacement for the stock unit... which just happens to be a high flow cat too.

The limit to how far you can go is based on:
1. Octane rating of the fuel - guaranteed higher octane rating fuel will let the tuning be more aggressive. We have to allow for fueling mistakes or just plain bad gas.
2. Variations in air pressure (from weather and altitude). This will vary the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber. Compensation by the sensor may be inaccurate.
3. Flow restrictions in the engine "system" (intake, exhaust, and engine). Less restictions can effectively lean out the mixture, and lean mixtures are more prone to pre-ignition.

The unit has limited control over what the PCM does, that is, can only correct a certain number of RPM/load points. All we do is change what the PCM calls for. The more Mazda messes with the PCM program (the "flashes" everyone talks about) the more work we have to do to ensure our units will work with all the flashes. We program in fixed changes at each RPM/load point. If Mazda changes what they do, our fixed change may not be suitable any more.

Upper limitations we have seen - about 240 HP peak on good quality premium gas at the rear wheels (stock intake and exhaust). This wouldn't be a suitable program for a street car as any variation (as numbered above) might put the engine into problem territory.

We have seen in the area of 260+ HP with high flow cat and Greddy cat back (good quality premium fuel). Again, not usable in this configuration on the street. In fact we actually saw det. problems at this level, caused by the PCM changing the air/fuel just due to gear selection! We're working on solutions to that problem.

The ultimate solution would be to replace the PCM with an aftermarket one (similar to the 3rd gen RX-7 replacement with an Apex'i Power FC). Then we would control everything. Problem is the PCM controls everything in the car (well, almost), and while a replacement may happen some day, it's not likely in the near future due to the complexity and proprietary nature of the PCM progamming.

I have to say the stage 2 offering 260 horsepower at the wheels is darn impressive even if you have to detune it a bit for gear shifting. I also remember Maurice saying more horsepower is to be had for us folks that are at sea level but with and added measure of caution and adhearing to good quality high octane fuel. Can't wait!

Thanks alot for the info Omicron and RX-8 friend. And for not making me feel like an ever bigger idiot.

Well, as we found out last week, there are way too many variables. As "Donald" (you know who he is) said, "there are things we know we don't know, and worse, things we don't know we don't know" ;) .

New TSB now says to update ALL vehicles to the "M" flash every time they come in. (Understand ifrom CZ post that it is not materially different from L flash for CZ purposes, but means we all will be at L level sooner or later.) See http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=319642#post319642

Cool! No more fighting for reflashes.. yay Mazda!

I got all excited for nothing. My dealer says: "The TSB you are speaking of has had a revision and we must contact Mazda before reflashing"

sux.

Now I can understand how these guys imported the cars and THEN decided they didn't meet EPA spec. Geez.