I've heard a bunch of people say you have to feel a rotary engine to understand. I've never had the opportunity to drive an Rx7. So what's the big deal? Is there a noticable diffence between the feel of a piston engine vs. a rotary? How does it feel different?

The only thing I can think of is that most of power comes in a higher RPM right? But that's not really any different than a lot of 4 cyl VTEC/VVT engines.

from my experience... the Rotary doesn't vibrate as much, has a nicer sound, and has no torque.

how do you mean it has no torque?

Speaking of sound...does anybody know of a site with samples of what a rotary engine sounds like? I've done some searches and visited the sites that came up in the results, but the samples I found weren't very good.

The sound of the engine is important to me when considering a car purchase, and I've been told rotaries have a very distinctive note that I'm curious to hear. Any suggestions of sites I could visit would be appreciated.

There is no real powerband "hit"(turbos excluded). It spins like an electric motor to the structural limits of the rotors and housings themselves. The feel(vibration or lack of?) is similar to most modern V-6 engines, only it never falls off the powerband. As the rpm climb, the more efficient and more power it makes, with only 3 moving parts. It loves and lives to rev. :)

787b (http://www.strages.homestead.com/files/787b.wav)
This is the 1991 LeMans winning 4-rotor taking it easy at Laguna Seca.

Some Dyno-runs can be found here (http://flathat.woodstream.net/RX7/RX7_Dyno_Day/).

Sounds cool. Almost like a motor cycle.

by no torque, I mean that there is little power when the engine is under 4,000 RPMs. The engine isn't highly responsive until the engine revs are up high... as opposed to my Impreza now, with a 2.5L boxer 4, the thing can be at 2,000RPMs, and have almost as much power as there is at 5,000RPMs

I thought that the R&T article mentioned that 90% of maximum engine torque would be available at 3250 RPM. If that is the case, I do not see torque being an issue.

that may be true...but on my older RX-7, that sure wasn't the case.

I'm trying to attach a file like you did for the sound and dyno tests, but can't figure out how to do it. I have an RX-7 dyno test that will blow you mind. Can I email it to you, and have you post it on the forum?

Originally posted by DANNER
Sounds cool. Almost like a motor cycle.

That's because it's revving so high. Don't expect an RX-8 sound quite like that, though with an aftermarket exhaust, you can get close.

No it's not. The LeMans car - even in qualifying trim - had a max redline of about 7500rpm with a race redline of either 6750 or 7000 (cant remember) it did not rev high, I imagine because of ecc. shaft flex. It sounds cool because:
a) It's a 4 rotor
b) It's a PP

-pete

This is taken from a very good article on the 787B here ...
http://dev.roadandtrack.com/images/rt_images/2001/march/mazda_787b.htm

"At Le Mans, an 8500-rpm limit was used during the race and up to 9000 rpm was allowed for qualifying"

There is some excellent technical information here for anyone interested in real details about the engine.

http://www.mymazdarotary.com/mazda_rotary_general/r26b/html/r26b_paper_html.htm

Feels is like a turbine. Although I've never personally felt an actual turbine, it's the first thought that crossed my mind when I drove on. Fairly vibration free with smooth power delivery.

Originally posted by ZoomZoom
I thought that the R&T article mentioned that 90% of maximum engine torque would be available at 3250 RPM. If that is the case, I do not see torque being an issue.

Its true. Mazda has done a lot of work to increase the Renesis low-end torque to better suit the North American driving style.

Originally posted by rpm_pwr
No it's not. The LeMans car - even in qualifying trim - had a max redline of about 7500rpm with a race redline of either 6750 or 7000 (cant remember) it did not rev high, I imagine because of ecc. shaft flex. It sounds cool because:
a) It's a 4 rotor
b) It's a PP

-pete

Well, it's 8500 - 9000 rpm, I stand corrected. Sorry about that, I just automatically think of race rotaries (13b) reving to 11k +, and failed to remember we're talking about the 26b here.

Driving a Rotary is like nothing else. Smooth as ice the car just goes where you want it, hard to explain. Its like having a spaceship engine.

it better have lots of torque...

LOTS of torque? You might wanna look at a V8....

While this rotary promises to have good midrange punch, rotaries have never been what you would call "torquey."

Rotaries are revvers. If you want to short-shift it like a Mustang GT or something, you'll be disappointed with the performance. Torque is supposed to be around 155 ft lb., 90% available between 3000 rpm - redline.

well now i look like a dumbass.

Originally posted by eelkmoore
it better have lots of torque...

Ok. I can see that this is going to come up a lot. So I'm just going to cut-and-paste. If I have to use it too much I'll do up some pretty pictures/graphs to go with.

-pete


As probably the only person on the forum with a dual-axis accelerometer kicking around I think I should clear a few things up that some people (buger etc) have touched on:


1)
Your accelaration graph is *PROPORTIONAL* to your torque graph for in gear acceleration

2)
The proportionality constant is

= (tyre radius * gear reduction) / mass

3)
The important factor here is gear reduction (diff ratio * current gear ratio). In other words you can double your acceleration (wind resistance ignored) by doubling you diff ratio. But by doing this you can detract from the usability of the car by reducing the max speeds in each gear.

Now here is the important bit:
ENGINES WITH HIGHER OPERATING RANGES CAN USE HIGHER RATIO DIFFERENTIALS FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF DRIVABILITY. THIS MULTIPLICATION EFFECT GIVES MORE GROSS TORQUE AT THE REAR WHEELS GIVING MORE ACCELERATION END OF STORY.

4)
Torque spread only affects how wide you can spread the gear ratios. It does not matter where in the RPM range the spread is because this can be traded with diff ratios rather it is the RPM range that affects how close you can make the ratios. So a car with power from 5000rpm to 8000rpm can have ratios just as wide as a car with power from 2500 to 5500 with the added advantage that it can run a higher diff ratio to increase acceleration.

5)
so say
car a makes 200lb.ft from 3000 to 6000 with a 4.11 rear (FD?)
car B makes 150lb.ft from 5500 to 8500 with a 5.82 rear (rx8?)

car a has 822rw lb.ft GROSS
car b has 873rw lb.ft GROSS

but here's the catch - both cars have identical speeds in each gear! It gets better the higher torque numbers give a higher top speed as well!

6)
With all this messing around with mulitpliers, dividers, NET torque gross torue isn't there an easier way? Yes. It's the often neglected POWER curve. Power at the flywheel = power at the wheels - gear losses. So you can simply overlay two RWHP graphs with shift points marked to figure out which will accelerate harder. It's a lot easier. That's why we can't bench race the rx-8 yet - because there is no power graph yet. Although if the torque spread stays that good then it will be ONLY the diff ratio stopping the rx-8 from being an FD rx-7 killer.

The feel of a rotary is like no other. First there is no vibration, in my old 1st gen RX, when it was properly tuned, you could hardly tell when the engine was on. There is no vibration whatsoever. As far as torque, I never felt like it lacked it. By no means is it a big block V8 from Detroit, but it has enough. Also, Mazda always does a great job with the gearing.
I cannot wait to get one.....

uuuhhh what he said...

jj

We will just have to drive it.

This is an old thread that should start up again now that we all know what they feel like. I want to know your opinions on how they feel to you in your own words.

To me its like a Singer sewing machine.

Ducati spinning up.
it's a 1.3l for goodness sakes.... how much torque does a 1.3l piston engine pushes out?

Holy crap is this an old thread. At least we know one person uses the search around here. Sheesh. However, on topic...the main feeling that I get from my 8 is the endless power curve. In a piston engine you can feel it sorta die off after 5K RPM...in an 8 you are just getting started at 7.5K.

4.5 years old!!! Damn, this is an epic thread bump.

As for how it feels, I would have to say smooth is the best description.

I love reliving the past so I look for retro threads and start them up again.
One of my bizarre hobbies.

smooth as thai silk

Didn't read all the posts but if you are listening to sound clips, keep in mind many cars have modded exhausts so not the stock sound.

"feels like it is running on double cream" - Jeremy Clarkson

^^^that´s a VERY good definition.

And apart from that, such an small and light engine allows an almost midship placement with a very low yaw inertia moment meaning extraordinay handling.

jird20

like flying close to the ground.

Power comes on smoothly like being pushed forward by a giant wave.

Power comes on smoothly like being pushed forward by a giant wave.

like warp drive without the warp.

I love the way the rotary makes the suction sound sounds as it drains my gas tank as if I was driving a an M1 tank.

dare we say . .

it has the smooth power delivery of an electric engine

I love the way the rotary makes the suction sound sounds as it drains my gas tank as if I was driving a an M1 tank.

dude, that made me crack up ... hilarious. sad but true.

this doesn't have to do with "sound", more "feel", i let a friend drive it and he kept shifting at like 7k, i had to "coach" him, even though he was older and had driven a lot of cars and bikes for that matter, to hold on to each gear! he loved it, he just couldn't believe it revved so high - he also said he felt it had more torque than he thought it would...

this doesn't have to do with "sound", more "feel", i let a friend drive it and he kept shifting at like 7k, i had to "coach" him, even though he was older and had driven a lot of cars and bikes for that matter, to hold on to each gear! he loved it, he just couldn't believe it revved so high - he also said he felt it had more torque than he thought it would...

This is why Mazda included that little beap at 8500.

This is no small point. The 'feel' is why so many people criticize the 8 as being 'slow'. For some it doesn't give their butt-dyno that sense of acceleration that they equate with speed. Of course most of us know otherwise.

To me it feels like a silky smooth turbine (well, above idle anyways).

it feels like a car

Its such a smooth sounding/feeling motor. Just sitting in the car in neutral you feel no shake or vibration. The RX-8 is my first rotary, though I did get to ride in my friends RX-7 which was a little rougher feeling (but the motor was rebuilt).

Jeremy Clarkson says it best... "It doesn't feel likes its running on anything as course and vulgar as petrol. Feels like its running on double cream!"

The OP last posted on 4/02. I hope he got the answer to his question...:-/

To be honest, I feel like the uniqueness of the rotary is the feeling you get mentally. Its just the adrenaline rush of a blender like sound and watching your tach climb to 9K as youre taking a corner at 62 mph in second!!! Thats the unique feel of the rotary to me, otherwise it just feels like a lack of torque :lol:

NA its like dropping off the top of the big hill on the roller coaster- the speed just keeps building and building

4.5 years old!!! Damn, this is an epic thread bump.

As for how it feels, I would have to say smooth is the best description.

I like that.
I'm The "EPIC THREAD BUMPER"

i was here lurking and reading it in its original posting

LOL, I don't see anything wrong with it!

It was explained to me that much of the low-end torque produced in an engine is due to the mass of the moving parts. More moving mass equals more rotational momentum, which is converted into torque. The rotary lacks the moving mass of a conventional engine; therefore more rotational energy must come strictly from the "power stroke" (or whatever it's called in a Wankel) and not from conserved momentum. The Wankel excells at higher RPMs than a piston engine, so it's somewhat like comparing apples to oranges.

Is this actually a fair description, or is it in need of correction/refinement?

If an electric engine could have soul, it would sound like this. Imagine an auto parts jockey grinding a Honda starter motor's gear into the corner of an 8-foot length of pressure-treated 4x4 pine. Put your ear on the other end of the beam and you'd hear Renesis. Well, maybe. Either way, it sounds so cool you just want to mash the throttle all the time....from Sport Compact car

Although it sounds flat and uninspiring at idle, the 8 has a distinct and intoxicating sound at speed and high RPMs. Not an exhaust sound, but an engine sound that's part induction & part turbine in sound that ranks right up there with air cooled flat sixes (my fav.). That said, an old Ducati with Contis or a Tubi equipped Ferrari make a good case for exhaust sounds, as does my litrebike with a Hindle that literally barks when I blip the throttle - sounds pissed, especially at over 12000rpm!

But the Renny has more character than just sound, it's defined also in engine feel and power delivery. While you can isolate vibes from even the most unbalanced engine nowadays, the rotary needs no such tricks. It's guilt free engine thrashing and I have yet to drive anything as smooth. As for power delivery, I tend to be an "in slow out fast" driver/rider, and there's nothing worse than trying to gradually increase throttle while having to compensate for boost or erratic power delivery. I've sworn off of chipped turbo's a while ago, and prefer a perfectly linear power curve. Or even better, my BMW flat twin produces about the same level of power anywhere in the rev band, though its flat power curve can be less exciting than the feeling of power coming on from a conventional engine.

Anyways, nice thread, the stuff that makes cars feel special - rather than debating what's faster or which one gets chicks - is not something that's discussed here that often.

I think the idle isnt THAT smooth but when driving its VERY smooth. from a stop the car isnt that fast but if your already rolling (20+ mph) when you downshift the car moves pretty nicely for what it is. It impressed me the first time I drove it, which is why I now own it :lol:.

No low-end torque is just the nature of the beast and personally it's what I like about the rotary engine. My dad doesn't understand, he always asks, "why do you rev it so high?" - well, that's where all the power is. It's fun because you feel like you're beating the junk out of the engine but that's what it lives for. Rotaries like the high revs. :)

Cheers,
Cody

Car "feels" slower than my s10 because it is so smooth, except it takes 1/2 the time to hit 60 then keeps pulling.

Who needs torque when all you need is horsepower on the track!

Let's put it like this. My friend has an H22 prelude, probably the most torquey out of any sporty coupe Honda has made, aside from the NSX. Banging the gears and shifting extremely quickly is the best way to drive that car because of it's peaky power. Now i had him drive my rx7, i told him to shift smoothly and precisely. He was amazed at how smooth the power output was without nailing out every gear or reaching your peak power. Just a different perspective.

I love how the engine just keeps revving higher and higher and doesn't really feel like it's getting up in the revs. I've had the radio blasting and the only way I realized the engine was at the redline was because of the beep, if you're not expecting it to come yet it's always a surprise when the beep hits because you can't feel the engine's distress

Speaking of sound...does anybody know of a site with samples of what a rotary engine sounds like? I've done some searches and visited the sites that came up in the results, but the samples I found weren't very good.

The sound of the engine is important to me when considering a car purchase, and I've been told rotaries have a very distinctive note that I'm curious to hear. Any suggestions of sites I could visit would be appreciated.

Can't help with a sound site - but it does not Rev in the usual "sounds like a motorcycle" sense....

At low rotations it is very quiet - and not much more than the wind blowing by the window- you can really hear all the notes in your music... Most of the sound is produced by the generator belt rather than the exhaust pipe.

At higher revs it sounds a little like a vacumn sweeper - not like any engine you ever heard before!

As you approach the red line - it sounds like a jet engine - perhaps because it was originally designed as a front loader for a jet...

It can really shake up a Honda driver when he tries to Rev at a stop light - they look over with a "What is that??" Just before he gets left behind

smooooooooooooth.

With a big solid block front engine - it kind of drags you around, when you turn a curve it squashes you against the door, when you speed up, you are banging into the back seat, it pulls your arms and you kind of muscle your way over the road - at the end of the ride you hurt a little...

This car is amazingly kind - When you speed up you are not sure you are going that fast - when I was following an ambulance to the hospital - for the first time I realized, at 120 mph, I could pass the ambulance! When you want to get into traffic you are already there! When you turn, you don't have to fight the wheel, you are not pressed in the seat even when you are accelerating and accelerating...You run it up and it goes faster, you let it coast a little and you run in up again and again it goes faster, you can't seem to find the bottom - but it is not fighting you, it is flowing with you, You turn and you are still in control - and other cars are trying to match it are going off the road - and you feel surprised!

At the end of a ride, you are not deaf, and you are not tired - and you get used to this real quick!

You are not being shaken to peices, and you can't figure out why your old piston car seems to be running so rough and loud...

It's sort of like having a sharp knife vs a dull one - the dull one kind of bends the loaf of bread - the sharp move just glides right through it - you feel that you are polished surgical steel - You could see a Samari really getting into this!

The Renesis. Stirred, not shaken. ;)

My 13b is loud, but because of the midpipe and exhaust....about 9K rpm and 15 psi..it roars!!!!

Who needs torque when all you need is horsepower on the track!

because torque is acceleration. So anytime you get onto a straightaway, you'll want torque. Fortunately there is a way to get torque on a renesis :)

Smooth as double cream, buttery smoooooth!

You can't feel a thing. It's too smooth.

nice ride mysql101..how do you like your boosted 8? you track your car? drag? roadcourse?

nice ride mysql101..how do you like your boosted 8? you track your car? drag? roadcourse?

grocery shopping

One of the best feelings in motoring imho.

Rebump

It was explained to me that much of the low-end torque produced in an engine is due to the mass of the moving parts. More moving mass equals more rotational momentum, which is converted into torque. The rotary lacks the moving mass of a conventional engine; therefore more rotational energy must come strictly from the "power stroke" (or whatever it's called in a Wankel) and not from conserved momentum. The Wankel excells at higher RPMs than a piston engine, so it's somewhat like comparing apples to oranges.

Is this actually a fair description, or is it in need of correction/refinement?

The simple answer;

The Renesis/13B is a small displacment motor - a 4 stroke equivalent of about 160 cubic inches. It's not quite as efficient as a 4 stroke and delivers roughly the same torque per cubic inch as a 2 valve 4 stroke. It just happens to rev a lot faster then most 160 cubic inch 4 strokes in production cars, threfore has more HP.

Three words..........................smooth as silk! Roll down the window bring rpm's up in second and de- accelerate and listen.............it's a sound all in it's own class, sounds like there's something mean under the hood.

bump

it better have lots of torque...

:spank:

Wow super old thread! Adding my 2 cents. The rotary is really nice, but how I wish these can have better straight line numbers. Hopefully the 16x can fix that.

bump

Why???

Feels like like a small jet engine near the center of my car is providing it power especially on the down shift.

Old thread is old.....are those cobwebs?

70,000 miles and still silky smooth

from my experience... the Rotary doesn't vibrate as much, has a nicer sound, and has no torque.

I wont say no torque, Id say smooth torque.

http://socialmediarage.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/kill-it-with-fire.jpeg

*EDIT* Also RIP Icemark

Speaking of sound...does anybody know of a site with samples of what a rotary engine sounds like?

I read this and thought "youtube, duh." :rolleyes:

Then I looked at the date. 3 years before youtube. That's how old this thread is. :lol2:

Lol... This thread came before i got in highschool lol. And im on my fourth car already. lol

The rotary engine behaves like this thread, after so many years the thread keeps racking up posts

massive BUMP GUY...

massive BUMP GUY...

You is crazy.... 2002??

This is nothing, I just bumped the very first thread ever created on the 8club. :)

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=0000001

The real feel of the rotary engine comes after the very first rebuild ! Your stress concerning blowing your engine suddenly stops. Now you know the engine life span so you really feel good.

Apart from this feeling sometimes you feel like riding a super balanced car that you are becoming one with your car....the Japanese jimba ittay (horse and rider as one) horses@t philosophy. I never real wish to become one with my car, it is better if you think a rider and a car , two separate things.

No matter how much power the car has, you always feel like there is more on tap as the car constantly pulls harder the more you rev.