with all the comparo's flying around between the rx-8 and various cars i noticed that they were all asian or european. what is a good comparison to the rx-8 in an american car? or is there one. should it be compared to the chrysler crossfire coupe do out in the fall? thoughts?

That's a tough one...

Mustang GT maybe? RWD, HP = 260, Torque = 302, 0-60 = 5.7 sec., has back seats, $25 - 26K.

Obviously not a very sophisticated platform (used for the past 20 years), and kinda homley, but it is good cheap V8 fun. Maybe the 2004 model based on the DEW platform used for the Lincoln LS and Jag E-Type will be a Mustang for enthusiasts to "enthuse" over.

Corvette is in another league both performance and price -wise.

Whatever Chrysler makes...all I see under the surface is minivans and K cars.

Originally posted by zoom44
Should it be compared to the chrysler crossfire coupe do out in the fall? thoughts?

Well that's going to be a hard one. Isn't that a two seater? Plus the drivetrain is from a real German Mercedes. My only problem with this car is that the concept car was so much better looking with the stacked headlights. It looks like it is intended for a much more sedate crowd now. :(

Whatever Chrysler makes...all I see under the surface is minivans and K cars.


:p LMAO.....I agree!! Bring on the wood side paneling!!

The best domestic car to match up will be the upcoming GTO (loosely used "domestic" I think they are gonna be made in Australia), sadly other than that we have no rear wheel drive cars with 4 wheel independent suspension geared toward spirited driving.

Whatever Chrysler makes...all I see under the surface is minivans and K cars
well here is a link (http://www.cardesignnews.com/events/detroit2001/features/chrysler-crossfire/) to some pics and a story. it is hardly a minivan. please don't mention kcars again, my mom had one (shudders).

Mustang GT maybe? RWD, HP = 260, Torque = 302, 0-60 = 5.7 sec., has back seats, $25 - 26K.

yeah that was one of my thoughts along time ago. the 8 definetly is the better car imo especially than the 6cyl versions of the 'stang. but i see much else to compare to other then the holden monaro that is coming as the gto.

Originally posted by zoom44

well here is a link (http://www.cardesignnews.com/events/detroit2001/features/chrysler-crossfire/) to some pics and a story. it is hardly a minivan. please don't mention kcars again, my mom had one (shudders).

That looks pretty sharp.

IMO Chrysler has truly world class styling and design capabilities. Heck, I think the Mercedes S class is looking more and more like an Intrepid! The problem seems to be their engineering. Maybe it's unfair, but their poor quality reputation still haunts.

The Chrysler Crossfire is very sweet!

This has a Mercedes engine and drive train.

I'll wait for it to come out this summer and then compare it to the RX-8.

oh goodness, (imo) the crossfire is one fugly car.

Originally posted by ACRX8
The Chrysler Crossfire is very sweet!

This has a Mercedes engine and drive train.

I'll wait for it to come out this summer and then compare it to the RX-8. And if it's anything like a Merc then the RX-8 has nothing to worry about.

Soft cushy ride, floaty suspension, BUT good interior, materials, layout, and engine.

Originally posted by snow_tires
oh goodness, (imo) the crossfire is one fugly car.

with ya on that one snow_tyres... :D

Judging by those pics, chrysler took a risk with that car. It has the kind of styling you are either going to love or hate (I happen to love it). At least with mostly a merc engine, tranny, etc. the reliability concerns many of us have will be addressed.

Originally posted by cueball1029
Judging by those pics, chrysler took a risk with that car. It has the kind of styling you are either going to love or hate (I happen to love it). At least with mostly a merc engine, tranny, etc. the reliability concerns many of us have will be addressed.

I also love the car, but can you consider it "American" if the Crossfire will be built in Germany, by Karmann, and will be comprised of nearly 40 percent Mercedes parts, including its engine and transmission? I also think the Crossfire might be more expensive than the RX8, it has "only" 215hp and it is a strict two seater. And as Hercules says if it handles like a merc the RX8 has nothing to worry about.

Well this looks like a good thread for me to post in, considering I'm looking at replacing my '96 Camaro Z28. Currently, I'm considering replacing it with the RX-8 or a 2001 TransAM WS6. I know that both cars are entirely different, and that the 2001 WS6 will woop up on the RX-8 in a straight line any day. However, I'm also out of the race myself to death phase of my life, and my license can't take driving like an immature kid on the road anymore. So, given my current daily driving never exceeds 75-80, and I don't push my '96 to its limits, I think I'd like to be able to get some better handling from a car. The RX-8 should handle the twisties many folds over my '96 Z28, and out due the 2k1 Firebird as well. However, I'd still like it to be able to kick up to 60 nice and quick for on-ramp accellaration, and maybe even push me back in my seat a little bit. I still can't decide...it's getting rough, and surprisingly I can't even use insurance quotes to make my choice since I called my carrier and got an "idea" of a quote for the RX-8 and it is very similar to what I'm going to be paying for the 2K1 TransAM. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :(.

Well, I guess trying to compare those two cars I'd better put my flame suit on around here...but, flame/compare away. What would you guys do?

Originally posted by jbebernes
That's a tough one...

Mustang GT maybe? RWD, HP = 260, Torque = 302, 0-60 = 5.7 sec., has back seats, $25 - 26K.

Obviously not a very sophisticated platform (used for the past 20 years), and kinda homley, but it is good cheap V8 fun. Maybe the 2004 model based on the DEW platform used for the Lincoln LS and Jag E-Type will be a Mustang for enthusiasts to "enthuse" over.

Corvette is in another league both performance and price -wise.

Whatever Chrysler makes...all I see under the surface is minivans and K cars.

I guess this post got me thinking too much...I bought a Mustang GT this past weekend. This is my second GT so I have some happy experiences with them. I got a dark blue 2001 with 13,500 mi for $17,500 (US).

The RX-8 is definitely in my future. But I need to see and drive one before I decide. Also, I don't buy new cars. I'll let someone else eat the depreciation...

When the time comes,however,I expect it'll be a good combination of my Miata's handling and the Mustang's power!

Golly this is a good crowd! No mention of FWD competitors...

However, if you do want to bring up FWD, then the SVT Focus should warrant a look.

One of the neat things about the Crossfire is the horizontal crease running on the flanks. Its indentation flips at mid door and has to be a real booger to pull out of the dies. I thought only Toyota did things like this (see the rear quarter panel on the Celica - Toyota did this basically as a "See what we can do, nah nah nah").

One vehicle that could be a real contender is the Dodge Razor (if they ever decide to build it). And Pontiac may have a coupe based on the Solstice (with which they have targeted the Miata). The Pontiac product folks have been tasked with making their product match their PR (anyone want to take bets on the outcome? ;-).

Yeah! The RX-8 has a lot of similar American cars to compare to! You know, all of those American mid-engined RWD cars that are available for under $30k... :p

i think the new mustang will be a pretty good competitor. com'on, as far as configuartions go, (front) mid-engine, 4-seat, 4-doors (kinda), rotary, there is NOTHING equivalent to the 8. few cars will probably look as great as the 8. but in the general sports car category, the new 'stang should definitely be a competitor, although the crowd they're reaching would be a bit different. it'll probably be a pretty worthy competitor, too. the DEW platform from LS/T-Bird/S-Type is pretty good, and you know it's going to have a strong V8, porbably in the vicinity of ~300hp for the GT. handling-wise it'll be better than the current car (no more Fox cars), but it'll also be heavier, likely MUCH heavier, than the 8, so it'll not be as nimble and spunky, more muscle-car-ish. you can just see one of those car & drive comparison, 350z (or g35), rx-8, mustang, crossfire, even the GTO. exciting!

corvette is a step up, much more expensive, much more pure sports, would be something the next rx-7 would go against

i don't think it'd be fair to group FWD cars here

Originally posted by chinx
corvette is a step up, much more expensive, much more pure sports, would be something the next rx-7 would go against

i don't think it'd be fair to group FWD cars here

hell yeah! RX-7 vs Corvette, but would that also mean RX-7 will be significantly more expensive than the RX-8???

and ditto on the FWD comment :D

hmm...

well, the 8 tops off at 33k (which i think is great for such a car). the final FD topped off at 40k (in japan, Spirit R Type A, instantly sold out). full out no compromise sports car. w/ the new 7, i hope that's still the case. so if the top-of-the-line goes up that high i'd be ok with it, just because it's an rx-7 =)

but mazda probably won't do that, 'cuz they'd want it to be able to compete w/ 350z price

so here's the question...which is better, the no-compromise-awesome-full-out-assault rx-7, but have to pay the price (ie 40 grand)... OR the 350z-priced not-as-awesome-but-just-as-cool-as-the-z rx-7 (ie 30 grand)?

IMHO Mazda should not go too overboard with the prices on the next RX-7 - just look what happened to the sales figures when FC became FD!
What I think they ought do is to have an entry-level RX-7 with the standard RX-8 Renesis engine with a base price of around 30.000$, I think that would move quite a few cars!
The RX-7 RZ (or something like that), with the slightly larger engine, should start off at around 35.000$. If Mazda decides to put out another sports car with FD pricing, I'm afraid it might once again kill the rotary - it's great to be ambitious, but necesary to be realistic!

Cheers

Eske

I will keep saying this in the hopes that Mazda will take it to heart. :D

"Horsepower figures without weight figures are meaningless but the general public is not aware of this. Mazda does not need to get caught up in a horsepower race when they have the perfect engine to turn things into a weight race.

No other manufacturer has the capability to produce an engine as small, as light and as powerful as the rotary. Honda tuned the hell out of the s2000 engine but it is still bigger, heavier, produces less hp and less torque than the renesis. Early estimates even have the rx-8 beating the lighter s2000 in fuel economy!?!?!

Mazda needs to emphasize their individuality by creating a next rx-7 as light as they can. They are afforded the opportunity to do this because a small impractical RX-7 will attract a different market than the practical RX-8 even if they are priced similarly. Nissan has great V6s that produce a lot of power and torque but they can't put it in a car under 3000 lbs. Why should Mazda participate in a horsepower war when they have the ability to produce a small lightweight car with unmatched acceleration, handling and braking for the price? How many people would buy a small 2600 lb rx-7 with 285 hp/180 torque that could go 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and cost $32,000 US? "

Pricing to compete with the 350z will be a smart idea.

Brian

I agree completely! If (and I stress if) Mazda decides to make this car the single-most impractical beast on the planet, a sports car by any other name, they should try to produce something truly unique - and they certainly could do worse than following the example of the Elise: Less weight = more fun!
If Mazda could hit the 2600-2800 lb mark and, as rumour has it, bore up the Renesis and if they could keep the price around 30.000$... Whoah, just had a wet dream people :cool:

Cheers

Eske

Originally posted by Buger
"Horsepower figures without weight figures are meaningless but the general public is not aware of this. Mazda does not need to get caught up in a horsepower race when they have the perfect engine to turn things into a weight race.

Hmmm, Brian, you never worked for Colin Chapman did you? :D

Honda tuned the hell out of the s2000 engine but it is still bigger, heavier, produces less hp and less torque than the renesis.

Not only that but the S2000, the same size as a Miata, weighs 2800 lbs.

Nissan has great V6s that produce a lot of power and torque but they can't put it in a car under 3000 lbs.

Very few coupes these days could come in under 3000 lbs, thank safety regulations for a lot of it. Back to the Lotus position; 'adding lightness' in one place allows you to add lightness in another. The inverse is 'adding weight' in one place demands you add weight in another (brakes, suspension) and pretty soon the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket. Where Mazda is truly out in front of other manufacturers is where they place their weight on their sporting cars.

Originally posted by atr_hugo
Hmmm, Brian, you never worked for Colin Chapman did you? :D


Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Yeah... heheheheh... Weight! Weight! Weight!

[i]Originally posted by atr_hugo
Back to the Lotus position; 'adding lightness' in one place allows you to add lightness in another. The inverse is 'adding weight' in one place demands you add weight in another (brakes, suspension) and pretty soon the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket. Where Mazda is truly out in front of other manufacturers is where they place their weight on their sporting cars.

[in the voice of excited Beavis with bubbles coming out of his head]
Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Yeah... heheheheh... Weight! Weight! Weight!

[Butthead]
Uhhh.... Dammit Beavis! What do you want me to wait for?!?? We're talking about horsepower and torque!

[in the voice of Beavis with bubbles coming out of his head]
Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Weight! Yeah... heheheheh... That's the ticket... Weight! Weight! Weight!

:D

Huh, huh, huh. Low weight is cool.

Originally posted by atr_hugo

Not only that but the S2000, the same size as a Miata, weighs 2800 lbs.

Actually its seven inches longer than the Miata with five of that being the wheelbase. The S2000 also about two inches taller and two inches wider, so it's not quite the same size. The Miata is actually much closer to the MR2 Spyder in size (two inch difference in length) and weighs about 200 lbs. more than the Toyota.

The S2000, as you noted, does weigh around 2800 lbs. which is about 420 lbs more than the MX-5. Most of the weight difference is probably in the chasis, not the engine though. The quoted number I have seen for the F20C is 326 lbs "without accessories" and the weight of the 1.6l in the NA Miata is around 280 lbs. according to the folks over at Miatanet. I suspect the 1.8l in the NB weighs a little more. So, of the approximate 420 lb weight difference only 40-50lbs of that is engine. Seeing as neither of the cars is especially plush with amenities and they both have 16" wheels, I would suspect most of the remaining weight difference is in the chasis.

While I think the power, efficiency, and weight of the Renesis are all very nice attributes I think one of the biggest advantages over piston engines is the size. The ability to make the engine bay smaller and have the center of gravity lower than that of a piston engine should be a susbstantial advantage when it comes to handling.

Originally posted by Pablo
IMHO Mazda should not go too overboard with the prices on the next RX-7 - just look what happened to the sales figures when FC became FD!
What I think they ought do is to have an entry-level RX-7 with the standard RX-8 Renesis engine with a base price of around 30.000$, I think that would move quite a few cars!
The RX-7 RZ (or something like that), with the slightly larger engine, should start off at around 35.000$. If Mazda decides to put out another sports car with FD pricing, I'm afraid it might once again kill the rotary - it's great to be ambitious, but necesary to be realistic!

Cheers

Eske

I don't agree. The situation now is totally different that when the FD was out (1995).

First, there is an RX-8 now! The only way that the RX-8 does not compete with the 350Z is in straight line performance. A possible 2 door RX-8 or MazdaSpeed either one will take care of that. There is your competitor for the 350Z.

A $40k RX-7 will not kill the rotary. The RX-8 is there to ensure that there is a rotary being sold in sufficient volume to turn a profit. The RX-7 will be a flagship car. If they break even on the RX-7 then it is nothing for them to worry about. The point of the RX-7 should be brand image. People should think "sports car", "zoom-zoom", and "RX-7" all in the same thought. Then they will remember the kids or look at the price and buy an RX-8.

The RX-7 should compete with the Corvette, NSX, and other halo cars. The RX-7 should win races and get glowing magazine reviews. This will sell a lot of RX-8s and Mazda6s and Protegés.

Remember also that $40k now is a lot cheaper than $40k in 1995. If the RX-7 were another FD it would be at least $50k. I don't think Mazda needs to be told any of this. They pay educated people to know the market and the industry. I fully believe that the main reason for the RX-8's existence (remember that it started with Mazda engineers working on their own time) is to make it possible to have a balls-to-the-wall RX-7.

Come on Mazda, do the right thing. Build an RX-7 that breaks even on profit, blows away machines at twice the price, and makes us all proud! :cool:

P.S. Sorry to be so off-topic, but all this talk of a neutered 7 got me fired up. :D

Originally posted by Fëakhelek
A $40k RX-7 will not kill the rotary. The RX-8 is there to ensure that there is a rotary being sold in sufficient volume to turn a profit. The RX-7 will be a flagship car. If they break even on the RX-7 then it is nothing for them to worry about. The point of the RX-7 should be brand image. People should think "sports car", "zoom-zoom", and "RX-7" all in the same thought. Then they will remember the kids or look at the price and buy an RX-8... There was an interview awhile back with a Mazda exec who said that they realized that having a flagship sports car (a "fantasy car", if you will) was very important to a brand image, and to bring customers in. He even went as far as to say that it was worth it to the big picture, even if they lost a little on each car.

So don't be surprised if the RX7 is more expensive, and therefore, more limited. Especially since Mazda has the Miata that can serve as their "basic, lightweight, no frills" sports car.

---jps

i agree that you have to consider the power to weight ratio, and you can't say that the vette is in another league, maybe the zo6. i know a person who bought an s2000 because it kept up with the vette in top end-vettes are heavy

i know a person who bought an s2000 because it kept up with the vette in top end-vettes are heavy

Vettes are heavy? I remeber an article that talked about all the ways the Z06 lost weight for the track including shaving down the windshield and a light weight exhaust.

Also, they have 405 HP.(that's a lot)

regular vette = 3200lbs
z06 = 3150
s2000 = 2800

"Heavy" is realtive, I guess 3150 might be considered heavy to an s2k owner. Top end? Hmmm... I don't know about that, but the stook would probably be more fun for auto-x...

my fault guys i was reffering to a stock c5-the z06 is in a different class than a c5

my dads friend couldn't run away from the s2k, but he was never overtaken

From slalom poll:

02 Acura NSX ............... 65.8
02 RSX Type-S ............. 66.8
98 McLaren F1 ............. 64.5
99 TT Coupe (turbo)..... 64.4
02 330Ci ...................... 63.1
00 Camaro SS ............. 60.0
03 Corvette Z06 ........... 67.5
99 Viper GTS-R.............. 65.3
01 SVT Mustang Cobra . 62.9
01 Accord EX V6 ........... 58.2
01 S2000 ..................... 65.9
01 Miata ....................... 62.7
01 Maxima SE................ 60.4
00 Jetta GLX ................. 61.2


Z06 is faster in the slalom, so I guess all that extra weight didn't hurt it so bad on the track afterall, and the HP/Weight ratio on a Z06 is better than the S2000: (If my calculations are correct)

Z06 7.77 Lbs per 1HP
S2000 11.66 Lbs per 1HP


So I guess the only time that extra weight would hurt is if you were trying to ship the car with FEDEX.

they were on the highway not a road course, and i doubt they were both professional drivers-and yes the vette is heavier than the s2k-if i were to put 300 horses in an s2k then what-the vette will loose

well being that the s2k has NO low end torque, it'll likely loose initially to the 'vette everytime during acceleration, coming out of a corner, and maybe even 1/4-mile

'vette and s2k are not in the same class of sports cars, the same way that a civic si is not in the same class as the s2k

Having a faster slalom or higher lateral Gs doesn't necessarily translate to faster track or auto-x times (especially auto-x). For example, the MKIV Supra was nearly as fast in the slalom and pulled almost as much lateral acceleration as the FD, but the FD is generally faster around a track and much faster at auto-x.

Also, having low torque doesn't really have an effect on track times, due to this thing called "downshifting". :cool:

Please. S2000 v. Z06? I think the Z06 beats the S2000 in every objective measure. The Z06 is truly a world-class sports car. The S2000, as good as it is, just ins't in the same league. Sorry.

Regarding the fourth gen RX-7, I would really like to see Mazda do what so many other manufacturers do -- build a high performance version to create brand equity, and then sell the lower performance version to the masses. For example, all Mustangs benefit from the image created by the 2003 SVT Cobra -- all Vette's benefit from the Z06, etc. This brand equity then translates into additional sales of base model Mustangs and Vettes.

So, assuming that Mazda builds a 1.5L rotary, use that as the base motor, with about 300 hp. Then, breathe on that motor a bit and offer a high performance RX-7 making roughly 400 hp. Mazda may not make any money on the high performance version, but presumably it will boost sales of the base model.

I also like this scheme becuase buyers will be able to purchase the level of performance they desire -- i.e., those who want the supercar will be able to buy it, while the platform will simultaneously serve the needs of individuals who are satisfied with decent, but not spectacular performance.

Anyway, I'd rather see Mazda adopt a marketing scheme such as this than pursuea "one size fits all" approach, especially if it means neutering the next gen RX-7.

FWIW,

Originally posted by RedRX
I would really like to see Mazda do what so many other manufacturers do -- build a high performance version to create brand equity, and then sell the lower performance version to the masses. For example, all Mustangs benefit from the image created by the 2003 SVT Cobra -- all Vette's benefit from the Z06, etc. This brand equity then translates into additional sales of base model Mustangs and Vettes.

So, assuming that Mazda builds a 1.5L rotary, use that as the base motor, with about 300 hp. Then, breathe on that motor a bit and offer a high performance RX-7 making roughly 400 hp. Mazda may not make any money on the high performance version, but presumably it will boost sales of the base model.


Anyway, I'd rather see Mazda adopt a marketing scheme such as this than pursuea "one size fits all" approach, especially if it means neutering the next gen RX-7.


I think the best part of buying cars like the FD is that you can continue to mod the car after you buy it. If done tastefully and carefully, it can turn the car into your personal vehicle, and help it perform much better than many stock supercars. with 61k, you can turn an FD into a much more aggressive car than a corvette. american cars, while tuneable, do not have as much aftermarket backing, limiting their ability to grow with the driver...

C'mon now, There's this guy named Lingenfelter(sp?) who'll do a little tinkering with a Z06 and nothing(well close to nothing) can touch it.

For a small fee of $49995, of course

check out http://www.lingenfelter.com/pac725ttls1y.asp

Nobody has mentioned the Neon SRT-4! Yes you can talk about the build quality but some of us (myself included) care about the speed first and the SRT-4 doing 0-60 in 5.6 seconds is amazingly fast for a car that is priced under $20,000. I don't want to offend anybody but I have been seriously considering an RX-8 but it is just too damn slow for me. It is a gorgeous car and I still may get one for my wife but it needs more grunt.

If you really care about the speed, you'll realize that 0-60 times don't mean a damn thing.

And considering the Neon is very much like the WRX in that at the top end of the speed spectrum, it sucks... you go right ahead and get it.

In the end it will still be a Neon, that's FWD and boring.

I'm no fan of torque steer and would never buy one, but I would not call it boring. All the reviews I have read have given it a lot of praise. As for no top end, sports compact car did the quarter in 14.2 @ 99.5 as shown in the following link:


http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/roadtests/012scc_dodge/


Personally, if you can afford an RX8 and are into a point and shoot fast turbo car, I'd go for EVO 8 (if you can grab one at MSRP). Its faster and has got terrific handling.

Originally posted by Hercules
If you really care about the speed, you'll realize that 0-60 times don't mean a damn thing.

In the end it will still be a Neon, that's FWD and boring.

Unless, of course, you like to drive at the local drag strip, as I do on occassion. For people who like to race in a straight line (yes, some of us do, and it's as valid as any other sort of racing), a FWD car that runs a low 14 second 1/4 at 100 mph is exciting -- and that's at the stock power level.

I'm sure the guys driving a sporty $30K+ RX8 are going to feel good when handed their a$$e$ by a sub $20K Neon (and yes, it will happen in at least one objective measure).

But I probably have it all wrong.

And one more comment about the Z06. Someone was saying that an S2000 kept up with one on the highway?!?!?! I just don't see that happening. The Z06 turns 115+ mph in the 1/4, stock, versus about 100 for the S2000. When these two cars line up on the highway, the result is called a massacre. And please, no grandstanding about highway racing. I'm just making a point here.

Originally posted by revhappy

Personally, if you can afford an RX8 and are into a point and shoot fast turbo car, I'd go for EVO 8 (if you can grab one at MSRP). Its faster and has got terrific handling.

I totally agree with you on that one however I have one major problem which makes life difficult for me. I only buy American. The only reason I was looking at an RX-8 is because of its association with Ford. Flame away, I realize that American cars do not have the quality of others but I've always bought American. Even at that I still went to talk to a dealer about the EVO but he wanted $7,000 over sticker - no thanks. My Contour SVT has been great for 130,000 miles but I gave in yesterday and put a deposit on a SRT-4.

Originally posted by Ray G


I totally agree with you on that one however I have one major problem which makes life difficult for me. I only buy American.

Well, you could say Mitsu has an association with Daimler Chrysler, or Subaru has one with GM if you're justifying like that. ;)

I like the SRT-4 - not sure if I'd buy one, but glad it's out there. Of course, I liked the old Dodge GLH cars too. Rude and crude but who cares?

Although if straight line performance was my thing, a Mustang would be hard to pass up, particularly the next gen if you could wait.

Well, the cars I am considering over the RX-8 are listed below (although if I could comfortably afford the RX-8, there would be no contest).

-Mazdaspeed Protege. Nothing else touches it for $27k (canadian). 95% sure I'll end up in one soon.
-Ford Focus SVT. (dealers are discounting)
-Used Ford Contour SVT (screaming bargain on the used car market)
(yes I know all the above are FWD, but the Focus and the Protege don't constantly remind you of it. In the Protege, it is amazing how good the suspension is, and how transparently the drivetrain does its job.)
-Used BMW 3-series. Damn these hold their value well, unfortunate for the buyer. :)

Originally posted by Grimace
Well, the cars I am considering over the RX-8 are listed below (although if I could comfortably afford the RX-8, there would be no contest).


-Used Ford Contour SVT (screaming bargain on the used car market)
(yes I know all the above are FWD, but the Focus and the Protege don't constantly remind you of it. In the Protege, it is amazing how good the suspension is, and how transparently the drivetrain does its job.)


The Contour SVT is really a fantastic car for the money. It handles unbelieveably well stock and you can get Koni adjustable shocks and Eibach springs like I did and it will blow you away. If you need any advice on the Contour let me know. You can also go to www.contour.org and get a lot of info there. The car has been extremely reliable and a great performer. With the few mods (okay maybe more than a few) that I have such as headers, y-pipe, exhaust, intake, electric supercharger, short shifter, brakes, suspension and a few other things, the car can mess with just about anything out there. Except for the obvious of course. Maintainance is pretty cheap as long as you know what to look out for. (water pump) I think I may have just convinced myself to keep mine!!!

And one more comment about the Z06. Someone was saying that an S2000 kept up with one on the highway?!?!?! I just don't see that happening. The Z06 turns 115+ mph in the 1/4, stock, versus about 100 for the S2000. When these two cars line up on the highway, the result is called a massacre. And please, no grandstanding about highway racing. I'm just making a point here.

-Right on.

right on 2

that's impossible. an s2000 would have a hard time keeping up even with a regular c5, let alone a z06...which is legions above the s2000 (talking about 911, M3 territory here)

now perhaps that s2000 was following a z06 going REALLY slowly on the freeway

people keeps lauding s2000 over and above what it is, cracks me up...

rx8...that's different...:D

Originally posted by chinx
right on 2

that's impossible. an s2000 would have a hard time keeping up even with a regular c5, let alone a z06...which is legions above the s2000 (talking about 911, M3 territory here)

now perhaps that s2000 was following a z06 going REALLY slowly on the freeway

people keeps lauding s2000 over and above what it is, cracks me up...

rx8...that's different...:D
What do you mean "rx8...that's different?" If you are implying that the RX-8 will hang with a vette...well, it won't. I want one, but I'm not under any misconceptions that it'd hang with a vette, hell it won't even hang (in a straight line) with my Z28. However, I'm out of that phase, my license can have no more of it, and while it's fun pushing passengers back in their seats, I want a more comfortable, better handling, sporty car.

I don't think Chinx meant that the RX-8 could hang with a vette. His previous sentence said:

"people keeps lauding s2000 over and above what it is, cracks me up..."

It appears he was saying that when people keep lauding the RX-8 over and above what it is, it's "different" and it doesn't crack him up.

Then again, I could be wrong and Chinx will probably speak for himself when he has the time.

chill guys...and thanks, Buger

i didn't mean the 8 will smoke a 'vette. that was just an innocent i-love-rx-8 comment in the face of s2000...

sorry for the confusion :)

Thanks Ray, I'll check that site out. You have any pictures of your car anywhere?

Originally posted by Ray G
...I only buy American...

...I realize that American cars do not have the quality of others but I've always bought American...
Would you mind explaining to me why you only buy American? I simply don't get it! You even make an effort to note that American cars lack the quality of European and Japanese makes.
There must be something here that I'm missing. In Denmark, American cars simply don't sell. Chrysler did reasonably well with the Neon and the PT Cruiser (for an American manufacturer, that is), but other than those two cars, you see nothing American around here.
Why? Well, poor handling, poor quality and poor fuel efficiency aren't really the best sales arguments this side of the pond!

I'm not trying to flame you, I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind your choice... it strikes me as being a bit odd, you see ;)

Cheers

Eske

Originally posted by Pablo
...I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind your choice... it strikes me as being a bit odd, you see ;)

I suppose the reasoning is Patriotism.
:p

Originally posted by Pablo
Would you mind explaining to me why you only buy American? I simply don't get it! You even make an effort to note that American cars lack the quality of European and Japanese makes.
There must be something here that I'm missing. In Denmark, American cars simply don't sell. Chrysler did reasonably well with the Neon and the PT Cruiser (for an American manufacturer, that is), but other than those two cars, you see nothing American around here.
Why? Well, poor handling, poor quality and poor fuel efficiency aren't really the best sales arguments this side of the pond!

I'm not trying to flame you, I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind your choice... it strikes me as being a bit odd, you see ;)

Cheers

Eske

The statistics show that American cars are more reliable than European cars. If you doubt it check JD Power (Initial Quality and Long Term Quality surveys) and Consumer Guide to confirm. These are pure statistical databases without ignorant opinions folded in. Since most people say "quality" when they mean "reliabilty" I ask if American cars have "poor quality" then what do Euro cars have?

Originally posted by Pablo
Would you mind explaining to me why you only buy American? I simply don't get it!

Patriotism is the answer exactly. A concept perhaps unfamiliar to you in Denmark. What does Denmark do anyway?? Sorry a bit harsh, and I'm just kidding but I couldn't help myself!!

Dodge SRT-4 fast as a WRX and faster than many other cars, cheaper than a WRX and many other cars, and made in the US!

Corvette, made in the US and kicks the tail out of most cars twice its price.

I'd rather have my money go to the US economy than to another country that doesn't do jack for the US. And yes I realize that Dodge is now Daimler Chrysler but still a good portion of the proceeds remains in the US.

Ray G, just curious, what will you be replacing your Contour with?

Originally posted by jonalan
Ray G, just curious, what will you be replacing your Contour with?

I just placed a deposit on the Dodge SRT-4:D

Originally posted by Ray G
Patriotism is the answer exactly....

...I'd rather have my money go to the US economy than to another country that doesn't do jack for the US. And yes I realize that Dodge is now Daimler Chrysler but still a good portion of the proceeds remains in the US.

But what is an American car nowadays. Toyota has 6+ plants in the USA - the way they are going they will one day produce MORE CARS (but not trucks/SUVS) in America than Chrysler and perhaps even Ford. That's American labor, factories, parts, steel etc and sold via American dealerships to Americans consumers. How is it more patriotic to buy an American badge but where some parts and assembly is done overseas. How on earth is it patriotic to buy an RX-8 (not one iota is designed or manufactured in America) just because currently Ford owns part of Mazda.

Patriotism is a great thing when applied correctly, but I think you are being somewhat simplistic/naive in your rationale to buying cars. Back in England we went through the same nonsense 15 years ago when the Japanese companies started doing really well. Some English folks (who thought Ford was British because they dominated the UK car industry) thought it was more patriotic to buy a Ford Fiesta completely built in Spain than a (vastly better) Nissan Micra completely built in England with local parts and labor.

Going back to the original topic - I personally prefer the styling and behaviour (suspension, performance, engine tuning, gearshift and steering feel) of European and Japanese cars, but have tremendous respect for a select few 'American' vehicles such as the Corvette (the performance for the money is incredible). I cannot think of any US car that is comparable to the RX-8 (the Lincoln LS and Caddy CTS are too big, expensive and luxury oriented) and cars like the Pontiac Grand AM, Neon SRT and SVT Focus etc are too cheap and originally based around practicality rather than sports car performance.

this must be the most succesful thread i have started. ask a simple question and 62 posts later it's still going!:D it hasn't been going as long as that rx-8 sport wagon thread(and do not start another one please) but it's still got legs.

very good points pelucidor. it shouldn't be about the badge but where it is actually produced. i originally asked the question because in my mind the only thing that comes close is the ford mustang and while i have been a fan of that car since i was a very small child, i have to say that the rx-8 beats it hands down. at the recent car show i asked a salesman who must have only been about 5'6" tall if people actually fit in the back seat of the 'stang and he tried to quickly show me how easy it was and how much room there was. well, he had a hell of a time getting the seat belt off a hook type device on the front seat (it was a convertible model) and then when he sat down and pulled the front seat back it slammed him in the knees! he tried to blow it off like it was no big thing but i left with a big smile on my face :D

How could I forget the Mustang - especially the next generation due in 2004 (I actually like the styling for once). Similar price, different goals but I am sure a non-base model could be fun. Best RX-8 competitor yet IMO...

As for the Neon SRT-4 - yes it's very fast (and well priced), but I have never liked the idea of high-power FWD cars because of torque steer. Once you are above 200hp it should be RWD or AWD IMO.

Originally posted by pelucidor

As for the Neon SRT-4 - yes it's very fast (and well priced), but I have never liked the idea of high-power FWD cars because of torque steer. Once you are above 200hp it should be RWD or AWD IMO.

I see what you mean but up here in New England I prefer FWD for the snow.

How on earth is it patriotic to buy an RX-8 (not one iota is designed or manufactured in America? You got me here, I just really wanted one and was trying to justify my buy american obsession. The Dodge is made in the US however so I will sleep better at night. You make very good points though, it is increasingly more difficult to find a 100% American car.

Originally posted by Ray G
Patriotism is the answer exactly. A concept perhaps unfamiliar to you in Denmark. What does Denmark do anyway?? Sorry a bit harsh, and I'm just kidding but I couldn't help myself!! :D Well, we make Lego bricks and propably 95% of every stereo system shown in US movies. The stereos are called B&O (Bang & Olufsen), if you ever heard of them - very classy looking but exceedingly expensive. The largest shipping company in the world (Maersk) is also Danish and we are world leaders in the field of windmills. Ever heard of Carlsberg or Tuborg beer? Yup, Danish as well!
Keep in mind that Denmark has a grand total of 5 million inhabitants, so we don't really get companies the (diminishing) size of United Airlines ;)

Also, Denmark is the country in the world that gives the largest percentage of its GNP to 3rd world countries... So that we hopefully can help them maintain a decent standard of living, while you are busy spending more money bombing places most Americans will never be able to find on a map. And no, I'm not talking about Canada.

Actually, what you are describing isn't patriotism, but economic isolationism... not really what the US was supposed to be about, being the liberalist poll bearers of the world and all. The true American solution would be to let American companies deliver the goods or perrish. Double standards simply are twice as good, aeh?

Cheers

Eske

P.s.: congratulations on your new (American) car, it doesn't look half-bad, i must admit :cool:

Originally posted by Ray G
I prefer FWD for the snow.


yikes!! careful or BlueAdept will get all pissed off about the "fallacy" of FWD cars being better in slippery conditions... what was it he said?? "If they ever make cars that are only FWD, i'll be going backwards everywhere" or something... :D

Originally posted by Pablo
:D So that we hopefully can help them maintain a decent standard of living, while you are busy spending more money bombing places most Americans will never be able to find on a map.

Keep in mind if the USA didn't do that you would be speaking German right now:eek:

Pablo, if you were to look it up, you will find that in any natural disaster, post war area, etc the USA gives the MOST of everything (money, food, clothing, etc) to that area period. We, as a country, are the most generous people on the planet! And if you don't think that fixing Iraq, which the UN should have let us do the first time around, will help more than just us in the long run, unless you like terrorists running around bombing everything they deam "unholy". And if we were not in S Korea the North would probably destroy Japan with there stupidity and we would lose our beloved 8 and future 7 (like how I brought this rant back to the rx-8 area ;) ) ok getting off the soapbox now!

Originally posted by b2k2000
Pablo, if you were to look it up, you will find that in any natural disaster, post war area, etc the USA gives the MOST of everything (money, food, clothing, etc) to that area period. We, as a country, are the most generous people on the planet!

I DO NOT WANT THIS TO GET OFF TOPIC!! SIMPLY RAISING THE POINT!!

actually, if you looked it up you'd find that the USA gives very little according to its collective means, which really puts it in context...
check out all this stuff (http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2306&pagenumber=4) i've said already in the "hate bush" thread...

it's not a personal thing, and it's not an attack... i just want people to have it straight.

anyhoo, i too am wary of North Korea doing something stupid like disrupting our supply of rotary powered cars!! :mad: this cannot happen!! ;)

funny how just a few hours ago i was lauding the success of my thread and now it has degenerated into an arguement about whether or not the U.S.A. gives it's share to the world. people in south korea have forgotten why there is a south korea. people in france and other countries in europe, as well as countries in africa have forgotten why they are not speaking german. Eastern europe seems to forget that they could be speaking russian now instead of their native languages. other countries around the world have forgotten that we do not go around annexing or trying to annex them, even though we could, but instead try to keep other counties from doing so. maybe people don't like us sticking our noses in their business, but if we didn't than they may not have a business to speak of or a country to live in. it seems to me that our allies are always saying "oh you guys in the U.S.A. should do something about this or that situation or this or that dictator". but when we finally do all we hear back is "oh you shouldn't have done it that way" or "don't use our airspace to do it". one day our government is going to get sick of that crap and do things that need to be done with asking any more. that is when all of those countries should be scared. remember we are the good guys here. and it's about time the rest of the world remembered that.

*steps off his patriotic soap box *

please post any response in the lounge. unless you have an american car to compare and contrast to the rx-8.

how 'bout those 'vettes?

:)

letsee... i started a thread way way way way waaaaaaaay back in the day, like what, last august or september or something about the real competitors for the RX-8...

the deal with most american cars is that they're nearly all FWD these days, which is something i guess you'd have to ignore... a major difference, but whatever.

the one car that comes to my mind is the Pontiac GrandPrix GT-something-something, with the supercharger...

(sorry moderatin'-rotary-dog, i had to reply :o)

oh i know i sorted copped your thread. but not many(if any) americans cars were mentioned. so i was hoping by saying specifically american cars in mine we could see what the state of american produced cars really is.

and you are right about the fwd. it's very hard to find good vehicles these days that aren't front wheel drive (we hear ya blueadept but perhaps the pendulum is on its way back).

the grand prix gtp i think is what you were talking about. good car although i bet some will trash it for it's suspension.

whats really hard to find these days from the big 3 is any kind of sporty sedan that you can get a manny tranny on. try to find the american equivalent of a mazda6, camry or accord on a lot in the US with a 5-speed. its practically impossible. :(

at least you were on topic 'keech:)

I'm sorry it was mostly my fault, keeping on topic though.

Pontiac Grand Prix GTP - My wife has one, fast straight line but terrible in the turns.

How about the new Pontiac GTO?? Should be seriously fast with the LS1 engine in it, it is a 6 speed, and is rear wheel drive. It should also be in the same price range as the RX-8 perhaps slightly more. This seems like the best contender.

can that be considered an american car since it will most likely still be built by holden in australia? or are they bringing production here? :confused:

Oops! I'm afraid we sort of opened up a political can of worms there, sorry guys...

My initial response to the question of comparable American cars to the RX-8 was "none", but depending on your needs, you might actually have quite a few to choose from. If you are hell-bent on low 1/4 mile times and going from 0-60 within the wink of an eye, American car makers actually present you with a plethora of posibilities (i.e. Camaro, Firebird et al). However, if what you are looking for is sharp handling, the American options become less obvious - at least within the RX-8's price range.
So, for me, there quite honestly isn't really any competition presented by American car makers to the rule of the RX-8, Z350, G35c and Audi TT.

One last historical rant, and that will be it: I am very much aware that the Marshall Aid is one of the most marked reasons for our present prosperity in Western Europe. However, the major turning point of the war in Europe was the Battle of Stalingrad, not D-Day. After Stalingrad the Red Army pushed forward and actually reached a Danish island (Bornholm) off the coast of Sweden, so odds are we would have learned Russian at school (and not English) had it not been for the American involvement - German was quite out of the question. The same thing goes for the rest of Europe, remember the divided Gemany :D

Cheers

Eske

Nope, they won't be moving the production, just banging on a new badge, so to me it represents an all out Aussie automotive vehicle.

And I thought the new Australian Goat was going to be $40k with some options - pretty pricey to compare to the RX-8. The best competitor is still a high-end Mustang - and that's a long way from great handling in it's raw form.

Ever heard of Carlsberg or Tuborg beer? Yup, Danish as well!

Yeah, I live down the road from a brewery myself. You may have heard of a few of the beers that they make. Michelob, Busch, and Budweiser to name a few.

-I think that cars do different things well. I'll love the RX-8 because of its sportiness and power combined with its practicality. The handling is a bonus. I love my camaro because it's fun to slam it down to second and push the pedal to the floor.
All cars please thier owners in different ways.

Originally posted by ohhno15


Yeah, I live down the road from a brewery myself. You may have heard of a few of the beers that they make. Michelob, Busch, and Budweiser to name a few.


Eeeeeew. Your house must smell like crap! There is a bud brewery near me and I wanna puke when I pass it.

Originally posted by b2k2000
And if you don't think that fixing Iraq, which the UN should have let us do the first time around, will help more than just us in the long run, unless you like terrorists running around bombing everything they deam "unholy".

The UN did not stop the US led coalition from occupying Iraq in '91. George Bush made the decision.

Name some Iraqi terrorists or training camps. There are none. I can name a ton of terrorists from the US allies known as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and even a few from the US.

Hussein could have given chemical or biological weapons to terrorists over a decade ago. If he did they surely would have been unleashed on the US many years ago. Hell, even bi Laden speaks of Hussein and his regime as infidels.

Saddam is a SOB reincarnate of Stalin but he is not a supporter of terrorists. If there is a war it is not about terrorism or any security threat to the US.

Corvette Z06's are unbeatable for value/performance. And they're American too.



Eeeeeew. Your house must smell like crap! There is a bud brewery near me and I wanna puke when I pass it.

First of all, no. Anheiser-Busch is headquartered here.(You know, the company with the largest share of the beer market in the world?)

Second, what else is by that brewery??

Third, Even though off the subject-- many imported beers aren't refrigerated on the trip here and taste *nothing* like they're supposed to. So if you pay twice the price for drinking imports, think about it next time.


But obviously your house smells like crap. That sucks.

Hey I thought we were trying to keep on topic here! Can we have a group hug and get back to discussing cars?

As for the Pontiac GTO, is the engine made in Australia? Just curious, I know they make the LS1 here, do they also make their own down there as well?

As for a future contender, has anyone seen the Chevy SS concept. Similar design to the RX-8 but with 450hp!!! Sweet looking car, I hope they build it.

Originally posted by Ray G
Hey I thought we were trying to keep on topic here! Can we have a group hug and get back to discussing cars?

As for the Pontiac GTO, is the engine made in Australia? Just curious, I know they make the LS1 here, do they also make their own down there as well?

As for a future contender, has anyone seen the Chevy SS concept. Similar design to the RX-8 but with 450hp!!! Sweet looking car, I hope they build it.

My new issue of Car and Driver says that Chevy has said "there is no chance it will ever go into production." But it all depends on how much faith you have in C&D...

Hey does anyone remember the old "classic" Avanti?

:D

I'd love to own one!

;)

There was even a 4 door version (opps, that was made in canada...)

:p

... oh did you meant curent U.S. car?

;)

Originally posted by Ray G
As for a future contender, has anyone seen the Chevy SS concept. Similar design to the RX-8 but with 450hp!!! Sweet looking car, I hope they build it.

Looks similar until you see it in person. This car is huge compared to the RX-8 - talk at Detroit booth was that "it may be produced" but expect a cost "more than the vette" :eek:

This puts it in another class than the 8.

Originally posted by babylou


The UN did not stop the US led coalition from occupying Iraq in '91. George Bush made the decision.


Saddam is a SOB reincarnate of Stalin but he is not a supporter of terrorists. If there is a war it is not about terrorism or any security threat to the US.

you are correct the un did not stop the us in '91. our stated goal from the start was to get iraqi troops out of kuwait and to re-establish the security of kuwait and other countries in the region. we did that and that is why the U.S. led coalition stopped when it did.

correct again. this war will be about the stability of the region and about keeping saddam from threatening his neighbors and to keep him from selling weapons to potential terrorists or other nations with ideas of grabbing the land of their neighbors.




i don't think chevy will build that SS thing. it would probably hurt 'vette sales

Originally posted by bwayout
Hey does anyone remember the old "classic" Avanti?

Hey look, notice how the rear wraparound glass window looks similar to the RX-8

:D :D :D

The 1963 Studebaker Avanti - way ahead of it's time!

(... Kinda says that to me that there is NO car out on the road, yet, like the RX-8)

;)

nice pic of a nice car:cool:

Is there a guy in the right hand lower corner of that picture with a stocking cap on giving us the finger??

-maybe that's just my imagination